What is the Rank Medicham (Fighter and Psychic)?
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Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Eien
- Start date
It is currently banned from Monotype.
Tks. ^^
- He's very fragile looking like he dies for anything.
- His speed seems good, but I do not feel that much, I do not know if it's because of his fragility, I have not been able to fit him into a poison team (I do not know if it's a bad use, or because he's very difficult to fit into the competitive one).
Did Tan give D and even unranked, for the same, indicating that he would be one of the worst poison pokemons to fit into a team?
Salazzle is a highly niche pick for Poison teams as in general, outside of niche situations, it does not do anything other Pokemon on the type can't do better
I did not quite understand your explanation. Are you saying that Salazzle is a punctual pokemon for specific situations? would not be good on a team for different situations?
As for Weezing, can anyone tell me if he can fit into a Poison team (MonoTeam) to compete? Or is it situational?
I'm missing Pokemons from viable options at the Poison team.
Not trying to minimod, but your questions don't really belong on a VR discussion. Maybe try in the Monotype room on Pokémon Showdown! or the Simple Question Simple Answer thread.
That being said, Weezing is a really niche physical tank and TSpikes setter that suffers from passivity and lack of reliable recovery and is thus hard to fit on a team and justify using over other options.
Thank you! I understood about Weezing, but what about Salazzle?
Salazzle has a niche of being a SubToxic set or Nasty Plot +3 Attacks. However, running Salazzle comes typically at the cost of Nidoking, which offers more immediate power through Sheer Force + Life Orb, and also acts as Poison's Stealth Rock setter. Nidoking offers more role compression than Salazzle, as a Steel Killer and a hazard setter, which is critical for many Poison teams.
Weavile A => B (Ice)
With the amount of games I've played as Ice monotype I can clearly say Weavile isn't A-tier. It's function on an ice team would be to revenge kill. As a taunter it wouldn't be the greatest pick since you'll have to rely on either Focus Sash (lack of damage) or Life Orb (lack a 4th attacking move like Low Kick, which is crucial). As a revenge killer the only things it does better than Mamoswine or A-slash is being able to use Knock Off and OHKO T-tar with Low Kick. Especially the latter is not needed since Mamoswine deals with T-Tar whenever it feels like. A-Slash in hail can also deal with more types than Weavile (after a Swords Dance). Fairy is one of the hardest matchups for Ice. A-slash wrecks this matchup, while Weavile does nothing for it. While Mamoswine is still the favoured pick since it does better on literally every type but fairy than A-slash, Weavile does worse than both. No reason for a swap. I would also not suggest running Weavile together with Mamoswine or A-slash since their role is quite redundant and it means you either will lack a wall or a Cloyster.
That said, Weavile is S-tier in Monotype Doubles, but I assume we only rate Singles here.
Lapras B => A (Ice)
Lapras was put into B by Smub because of Walrein Specs being better against a lot of types, including fire. While true, this isn't the only way to play Lapras - which I think Smub didn't know at the time either. Lapras is also played as a Sp.Def Wall that uses Whirlpool/Perish song, much like Azumarill can. In this way it's actually really beneficial for an Ice Team as it can get rid of many pesky threats that are annoying to deal with: Chansey, Celesteela, Special Attack Setup Mons, ... (I could make this list longer but brain is freezing). Especially the ability to deal with Chansey makes the Normal Matchup go from Hard to Intermediate.
The reason why Lapras shouldn't be in S, is because Eviolite Piloswine is still the best Sp. Def wall for Ice and can actually set Stealth Rocks - which allows Mamoswine to run scarf - and can OHKO Volcarona. Piloswine however, can't deal with Chansey that runs Natural Cure or any other way of healing it's status and has a hard time dealing with Celesteela due to lack of a recovery move, while Lapras is guaranteed to KO it in 3 turns with Perish Song. Sash Mamoswine is also better than Scarfed Manoswine on a balanced team, making the need for Piloswine even less.
Rotom-Frost B => C/D (Ice)
I feel really sorry for this guy, but what does he actually offer? Screens? You have Aurora Veil. Will-O-Wisp for Scizor? True. But (Babiri Berry) Kyurem, specs Walrein/Lapras, Cloyster, ... can deal with Scizor better than he will. For damage? It doesn't really help the type coverage. Shadow Ball seems good for Psychic Matchup, but Rotom is quite slow. Electric isn't needed since Flying and Water are already easy matchups.
Avalugg A => S (Ice)
I don't really get the A-rank. He completely walls any physical non-SE threat. He even takes a HJK from Mega-Lopunny and lives with 40-50% HP and tends to take SE Fighting hits from a variety of mons. It can also live a Moonblast from Mega-Diancie at full hp with 94.7% chance (if needed to). Secondly, Avalugg also has access to Rapid Spin - something Ice needs and finally opens up the possibility to run Mamoswine over A-slash unless vs Fairy. Next up, Avalugg has acces to recover, for... recovery. Making it, together with the high Defense Stat, the best Physical Wall Ice could dream off. Furthermore Avalugg has acces to roar making him able to switch in to Mega-Scizor/Azumarill/Mimikyu.
Last but not least it has access to Avalance which actually hurts more than people think:
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 156-184 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 308-366 (95.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 136-162 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 254-300 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after CC defense drop)
(252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - walls it completely)
(List could go on forever, but you get the idea).
His lack of Special Defense is made up by Piloswine/Lapras/Walrein.
There's no reason not to use Avalugg on an ice team, unless you want to "do it wrong" and play full offense.
With the amount of games I've played as Ice monotype I can clearly say Weavile isn't A-tier. It's function on an ice team would be to revenge kill. As a taunter it wouldn't be the greatest pick since you'll have to rely on either Focus Sash (lack of damage) or Life Orb (lack a 4th attacking move like Low Kick, which is crucial). As a revenge killer the only things it does better than Mamoswine or A-slash is being able to use Knock Off and OHKO T-tar with Low Kick. Especially the latter is not needed since Mamoswine deals with T-Tar whenever it feels like. A-Slash in hail can also deal with more types than Weavile (after a Swords Dance). Fairy is one of the hardest matchups for Ice. A-slash wrecks this matchup, while Weavile does nothing for it. While Mamoswine is still the favoured pick since it does better on literally every type but fairy than A-slash, Weavile does worse than both. No reason for a swap. I would also not suggest running Weavile together with Mamoswine or A-slash since their role is quite redundant and it means you either will lack a wall or a Cloyster.
That said, Weavile is S-tier in Monotype Doubles, but I assume we only rate Singles here.
Lapras B => A (Ice)
Lapras was put into B by Smub because of Walrein Specs being better against a lot of types, including fire. While true, this isn't the only way to play Lapras - which I think Smub didn't know at the time either. Lapras is also played as a Sp.Def Wall that uses Whirlpool/Perish song, much like Azumarill can. In this way it's actually really beneficial for an Ice Team as it can get rid of many pesky threats that are annoying to deal with: Chansey, Celesteela, Special Attack Setup Mons, ... (I could make this list longer but brain is freezing). Especially the ability to deal with Chansey makes the Normal Matchup go from Hard to Intermediate.
The reason why Lapras shouldn't be in S, is because Eviolite Piloswine is still the best Sp. Def wall for Ice and can actually set Stealth Rocks - which allows Mamoswine to run scarf - and can OHKO Volcarona. Piloswine however, can't deal with Chansey that runs Natural Cure or any other way of healing it's status and has a hard time dealing with Celesteela due to lack of a recovery move, while Lapras is guaranteed to KO it in 3 turns with Perish Song. Sash Mamoswine is also better than Scarfed Manoswine on a balanced team, making the need for Piloswine even less.
Rotom-Frost B => C/D (Ice)
I feel really sorry for this guy, but what does he actually offer? Screens? You have Aurora Veil. Will-O-Wisp for Scizor? True. But (Babiri Berry) Kyurem, specs Walrein/Lapras, Cloyster, ... can deal with Scizor better than he will. For damage? It doesn't really help the type coverage. Shadow Ball seems good for Psychic Matchup, but Rotom is quite slow. Electric isn't needed since Flying and Water are already easy matchups.
Avalugg A => S (Ice)
I don't really get the A-rank. He completely walls any physical non-SE threat. He even takes a HJK from Mega-Lopunny and lives with 40-50% HP and tends to take SE Fighting hits from a variety of mons. It can also live a Moonblast from Mega-Diancie at full hp with 94.7% chance (if needed to). Secondly, Avalugg also has access to Rapid Spin - something Ice needs and finally opens up the possibility to run Mamoswine over A-slash unless vs Fairy. Next up, Avalugg has acces to recover, for... recovery. Making it, together with the high Defense Stat, the best Physical Wall Ice could dream off. Furthermore Avalugg has acces to roar making him able to switch in to Mega-Scizor/Azumarill/Mimikyu.
Last but not least it has access to Avalance which actually hurts more than people think:
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 156-184 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 308-366 (95.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 136-162 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 254-300 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after CC defense drop)
(252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - walls it completely)
(List could go on forever, but you get the idea).
His lack of Special Defense is made up by Piloswine/Lapras/Walrein.
There's no reason not to use Avalugg on an ice team, unless you want to "do it wrong" and play full offense.
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Weavile A => B (Ice)
With the amount of games I've played as Ice monotype I can clearly say Weavile isn't A-tier. It's function on an ice team would be to revenge kill. As a taunter it wouldn't be the greatest pick since you'll have to rely on either Focus Sash (lack of damage) or Life Orb (lack a 4th attacking move like Low Kick, which is crucial). As a revenge killer the only things it does better than Mamoswine or A-slash is being able to use Knock Off and OHKO T-tar with Low Kick. Especially the latter is not needed since Mamoswine deals with T-Tar whenever it feels like. A-Slash in hail can also deal with more types than Weavile (after a Swords Dance). Fairy is one of the hardest matchups for Ice. A-slash wrecks this matchup, while Weavile does nothing for it. While Mamoswine is still the favoured pick since it does better on literally every type but fairy than A-slash, Weavile does worse than both. No reason for a swap. I would also not suggest running Weavile together with Mamoswine or A-slash since their role is quite redundant and it means you either will lack a wall or a Cloyster.
That said, Weavile is S-tier in Monotype Doubles, but I assume we only rate Singles here.
Lapras B => A (Ice)
Lapras was put into B by Smub because of Walrein Specs being better against a lot of types, including fire. While true, this isn't the only way to play Lapras - which I think Smub didn't know at the time either. Lapras is also played as a Sp.Def Wall that uses Whirlpool/Perish song, much like Azumarill can. In this way it's actually really beneficial for an Ice Team as it can get rid of many pesky threats that are annoying to deal with: Chansey, Celesteela, Special Attack Setup Mons, ... (I could make this list longer but brain is freezing). Especially the ability to deal with Chansey makes the Normal Matchup go from Hard to Intermediate.
The reason why Lapras shouldn't be in S, is because Eviolite Piloswine is still the best Sp. Def wall for Ice and can actually set Stealth Rocks - which allows Mamoswine to run scarf - and can OHKO Volcarona. Piloswine however, can't deal with Chansey that runs Natural Cure or any other way of healing it's status and has a hard time dealing with Celesteela due to lack of a recovery move, while Lapras is guaranteed to KO it in 3 turns with Perish Song. Sash Mamoswine is also better than Scarfed Manoswine on a balanced team, making the need for Piloswine even less.
Rotom-Frost B => C/D (Ice)
I feel really sorry for this guy, but what does he actually offer? Screens? You have Aurora Veil. Will-O-Wisp for Scizor? True. But (Babiri Berry) Kyurem, specs Walrein/Lapras, Cloyster, ... can deal with Scizor better than he will. For damage? It doesn't really help the type coverage. Shadow Ball seems good for Psychic Matchup, but Rotom is quite slow. Electric isn't needed since Flying and Water are already easy matchups.
Avalugg A => S (Ice)
I don't really get the A-rank. He completely walls any physical non-SE threat. He even takes a HJK from Mega-Lopunny and lives with 40-50% HP and tends to take SE Fighting hits from a variety of mons. It can also live a Moonblast from Mega-Diancie at full hp with 94.7% chance (if needed to). Secondly, Avalugg also has access to Rapid Spin - something Ice needs and finally opens up the possibility to run Mamoswine over A-slash unless vs Fairy. Next up, Avalugg has acces to recover, for... recovery. Making it, together with the high Defense Stat, the best Physical Wall Ice could dream off. Furthermore Avalugg has acces to roar making him able to switch in to Mega-Scizor/Azumarill/Mimikyu.
Last but not least it has access to Avalance which actually hurts more than people think:
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 156-184 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 308-366 (95.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 136-162 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 254-300 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after CC defense drop)
(252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - walls it completely)
(List could go on forever, but you get the idea).
His lack of Special Defense is made up by Piloswine/Lapras/Walrein.
There's no reason not to use Avalugg on an ice team, unless you want to "do it wrong" and play full offense.
Yeah I'm gonna disagree with all of this. Starting with Weavile:
Weavile is never intended to run Taunt, as it needs all 4 of its moveslots for offense. Also, Low Kick isn't really an essential move for Weavile, in fact more of them run Pursuit as a means of trapping Victini, -1 Mega Gallade, and Jirachi, as well as weakening Excadrill to within Ice Shard range. Weavile is a good option on Ice because it doesn't require hail to be an effective revenge killer the way Alolan Sandslash does, not to mention that Alolan Sandslash doesn't have access to priority or the ability to beat Mega Charizard Y. It's a solid option on hyper offensive teams, which have actually become more popular since Alolan Sandslash and Rotom-F can fill the role as hazard removers, and the type isn't forced to run Avalugg anymore. So Weavile is absolutely fine where it is in A rank.
Now for Lapras. I've actually tested the PerishPool Lapras set a few times, and I honestly think it's really underwhelming. The Pokemon you claimed PerishPool Lapras can beat actually have a lot of counterplay that still makes it incredibly difficult. Against Normal, the opponent can very easily switch into either Staraptor, who has U-turn for an easy out, or Porygon2 to trace the Water Absorb, making it untrappable. It even invites Diggersby in for free to get off a safe Frustration against whatever it wants. As for Steel, the Steel player has Skarmory to safely Whirlwind, Heatran to Taunt, Mega Scizor to freely U-turn out, and even Ferrothorn to 3HKO with Power Whip. Unless your opponent decides to actively sacrifice their Chansey/Celesteela for no reason, you'd be better off running Choice Specs, which can outspeed and remove bulky Mega Scizor, as well as Skarmory, Heatran, and Ferrothorn after prior chip damage, while also assuring the Water matchup. The mediocre PerishPool set just isn't worth running over Specs, and shouldn't be a reason for it to rise any higher than B rank.
Rotom-Frost was actually B rank BEFORE Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, due to its decent job as a bulky pivot that could cripple various Pokemon on Steel with Will-O-Wisp while also being able to pivot around with Volt Switch. It only got better in USUM, where it received Defog to take better advantage of its role as a bulky pivot. It also helped that it was immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web, all of which Avalugg is affected by, and with Alolan Sandslash only being immune to Toxic Spikes. Offensive sets were always rather mediocre for it, but Choice Scarf is still a serviceable option as a faster pivot and revenge killer to Mega Charizard Y on slower teams. Rotom-Frost is definitely better compared to the rest of the C and D ranks, which is why it should stay in B rank.
And last but not least, Avalugg. The reason Avalugg dropped to A rank is because of the rise of new hazard removers for Ice in Gen 7, such as Alolan Sandslash and Rotom-Frost. One can fill the role as an effective sweeper and revenge killer, while the other offers extra unique defensive utility that Avalugg just doesn't have. Oh yeah, and running Avalugg doesn't mean you need to replace Alolan Sandslash, which is arguably the more viable option on Ice teams right now. Avalugg just allows Alolan Sandslash to replace Rapid Spin with Swords Dance to punch past would-be defensive checks. This isn't to undercut Avalugg's role, since it's still an amazing physical switch-in that can check threats like Infernape, Heracross, Excadrill, and regular Scizor. It's just that it faces a lot more competition at its role, and isn't worth the S ranking anymore, which is typically reserved for 100% essential Pokemon for a type. Alolan Ninetales offers irreplaceable utility with Aurora Veil while also offering Encore utility and the ability to beat Keldeo, while Kyurem-B is the undisputed best wallbreaker for the type that assists in just about every matchup. As for Mamoswine, it can be argued whether it's worthy of that S rank, since bulkier teams with Piloswine are still viable options for the better Poison and Bug matchups, but I might make a post about that at a later time. The point being, Avalugg doesn't deserve a rise, and should stay where it is at A rank.
If you think the type doesn't need Avalugg, you're blatantly wrong, unless you're willing to instantly forfeit fighting and some other matchups. Which is up to you honestly.
Weavile: Why use Weavile to ice shard kill Charizard-Y if it doesn't even do 50% damage with Ice Shard (priority), not even with a band. So much for KO'ing that. Icicle Crash could easily KO Charizard-Y (and X, the more common variant anyway on Fire Teams). But why risk the 10% chance of missing if you can swap into something like Walrein/Lapras to bait a Solar Beam while switching into A-Tales using encore and possibly getting a free A-veil and/or Cloyster setup. About Mega Gallade: yeah, if he switches pursuit has a 100% to OHKO after SR. If he doesn't, you lose Weavile. Icicle Crash is a safer option since it will always OHKO -1 Gallade. Then again, most Mega-Gallades run Knock Off over Shadow Sneak, so Scarfed or Sash'd Mamoswine beat Mega Gallade easily too. Neither Band nor Life Orb deal 50% damage to Excadrill. I'm also wondering how you intend to play against a banded Excadrill under the weather without having an Avalugg. Good luck with that without losing the matchup. Weavile to B.
Lapras: If they switch into Staraptor, Staraptor takes damage from Whirlpool attack and 2 Whirlpool hits, forcing it to roost or defog if you have Stealth Rocks up, allowing u a free setup switch into Cloyster. The only counter Normal can bring into this, is putting Ditto up for play, which will be locked into one move. They could bring in Porygon 2 if it runs T-bolt, but if you have A-veil that doesn't even KO unless Stealth Rocks were up. In case they do have Stealth Rocks up, that means they used Stealth Rocks on Chansey. Which means you could trap it with Lapras. So point stands. Diggersby frustration is tanked by Avalugg. Again another reason to always run Avalugg and put it into S-tier.
Rotom-Frost: Saying Rotom-Frost is better than most C/D-ranks is no argument to keep it in B when it's worse than everything in B. It also serves a different role than most of the lower tiered pokémons. If you run no physical tank like Avalugg, good luck pivoting around with volt switch and tanking hits. Defog when it takes 25% SR damage, just like Avalugg and it's only "reliable" recovery move is Pain Split. Reminder that every other Rotom that's seen play is used as a screener/defogger. Rotom-Frost can't even use that strat because Aurora Veil is a thing. Rotom-Frost is bad and deserves to go to C or D.
Avalugg: As shown above in many cases you don't get away with what you proposed without running Avalugg, which is contradicting your statement saying it's not a 100% run. A-Slash as you mentioned does have his niche as a Rapid Spinner. Must I say though that without Swords Dance it misses so many ranges? It's only good in the Fairy Matchup where it can reliably KO nearly everything after a Swords Dance. Must I also say that A-Slash will only pull this off if you actually have Hail weather up? Else it gets speedcrept by everything. A-slash is only good if you can reliably put up Hail weather (good luck with that) and if it can actually KO things, which forces it into Swords Dance. You're experience might be different, but I'd find that strange. I wouldn't see how you would handle Psychic/Fairy/Normal (Chansey/Porygon2) without Swords Dance and without Avalugg. Feel free to prove me wrong? Also: Mamoswine does a way better job at the Fire Matchup as A-tiles needs (again) a Swords Dance to reliably go for KO's, which gives your opponent time to change the weather. Heh. While this rant was mostly about A-slash, that's only because it was your main reason saying Avalugg wasn't worthy of S-tier. Avalugg to S rank.
Mamoswine: I must agree though that Mamoswine doesn't necessarily have to be S-tier, due to the fact A-Slash can outshine it in the Fairy Matchup and possibly in Psychic as well. Therefor you could argue A-rank is fine. But seeing as it does every job A-slash does better in other matchups, there's no reason for it to be in the same tier as A-slash.
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I would like to nominate Cradily (Grass) for S rank (currently A on Grass).
Considering metagame shifts that have happened with the release of Gen 7, most notably the addition of new threats and ban to powerhouses like Kartana and Terrain Extender, Grass's offensive builds that weren't reliant on Cradily have become comparatively worse to balance, making the latter archetype the only, and therefore most viable for the type. Cradily performs an essential role in the balance format, thanks to its ability to set Stealth Rocks very reliably due to its solid special bulk and its Grass/Rock typing, being one of the few ways to pressure types like Flying and Fire that have a considerable advantage against Grass teams. Its access to reliable recovery and neutrality to fire moves is also what makes it a better candidate than any other Stealth Rock setter, as it has more opportunities to use the move in the forementioned matchups and several others.
Through a comparison perspective, Cradily is as important as the other Pokemon that are ranked S, and therefore irreplaceable, like Mega-Venusaur and Ferrothorn, due to the reasons stated above. It is also more relevant than the other Pokemon that are ranked A, given that Breloom's presence is not always needed and that other options can be considered to fill the offensive slots of the team.
It also should be noted that Cradily can check specific threats of the metagame that its teammates have trouble dealing with, incluiding but not limited to: Volcarona, Charizard Y, Hydreigon, Blacephalon, Mega-Venusaur, and pretty much every Hidden Power Fire user. This can enable more possibilities to win the game against the teams that have those Pokemon, that are otherwise hard to beat when Cradily is absent.
Finally, Cradily is capable of wearing down defensive Pokemon that aren't immune to Toxic, providing overall utility in many different matchups as well as being able to alleviate opponent's pressure on Mega-Venusaur and Ferrothorn with its decent 86 / 97 / 107 bulk and typing. In short, it is just too hard to imagine a Grass team without Cradily nowadays, thanks to the overall utility it provides as a stealth rock setter and as a special wall capable to check many threats Grass teams have. It is a staple that is a must-have on balance builds (else it is handicapping yourself heavily for the most part) and adding that with the forementioned qualities, I believe S rank is ideal to represent this Pokemon and how it should be accounted when teambuilding for Grass.
Considering metagame shifts that have happened with the release of Gen 7, most notably the addition of new threats and ban to powerhouses like Kartana and Terrain Extender, Grass's offensive builds that weren't reliant on Cradily have become comparatively worse to balance, making the latter archetype the only, and therefore most viable for the type. Cradily performs an essential role in the balance format, thanks to its ability to set Stealth Rocks very reliably due to its solid special bulk and its Grass/Rock typing, being one of the few ways to pressure types like Flying and Fire that have a considerable advantage against Grass teams. Its access to reliable recovery and neutrality to fire moves is also what makes it a better candidate than any other Stealth Rock setter, as it has more opportunities to use the move in the forementioned matchups and several others.
Through a comparison perspective, Cradily is as important as the other Pokemon that are ranked S, and therefore irreplaceable, like Mega-Venusaur and Ferrothorn, due to the reasons stated above. It is also more relevant than the other Pokemon that are ranked A, given that Breloom's presence is not always needed and that other options can be considered to fill the offensive slots of the team.
It also should be noted that Cradily can check specific threats of the metagame that its teammates have trouble dealing with, incluiding but not limited to: Volcarona, Charizard Y, Hydreigon, Blacephalon, Mega-Venusaur, and pretty much every Hidden Power Fire user. This can enable more possibilities to win the game against the teams that have those Pokemon, that are otherwise hard to beat when Cradily is absent.
Finally, Cradily is capable of wearing down defensive Pokemon that aren't immune to Toxic, providing overall utility in many different matchups as well as being able to alleviate opponent's pressure on Mega-Venusaur and Ferrothorn with its decent 86 / 97 / 107 bulk and typing. In short, it is just too hard to imagine a Grass team without Cradily nowadays, thanks to the overall utility it provides as a stealth rock setter and as a special wall capable to check many threats Grass teams have. It is a staple that is a must-have on balance builds (else it is handicapping yourself heavily for the most part) and adding that with the forementioned qualities, I believe S rank is ideal to represent this Pokemon and how it should be accounted when teambuilding for Grass.
I didn't mean to say use Ice Shard against Mega Charizard Y, I said that it had priority as an advantage over Alolan Sandslash. Also, the important aspect of Weavile is that it eliminates the possibility of these targets switching out. If you have your Scarf/Sash Mamoswine attempt to beat the Mega Gallade, there's nothing stopping them from safely switching into their Slowbro and beating Mamoswine 100%. Weavile is generally a heavy threat in this matchup, especially since most Victinis are starting to stray from Choice Scarf to Choice Band, and being able to completely remove one of the biggest threats is just further testament to how great it is. A 10% miss chance really isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and I'd rather rely on that compared to relying on a prediction that most of the time the Zard Y player shouldn't even have to make (Lapras takes more from a sun boosted Fire Blast than either Solar Beam or Focus Blast). After only 2 Life Orb hits, Excadrill is well within range of being KOed by a Knock Off from Weavile, hence giving it the incentive to switch out if sand isn't up. You also have to keep in mind that Excadrill isn't the most liberal with its sand turns against Ice, especially when factoring in Aurora Veil and the fact that Kyurem-B and Lapras very easily come in on Hippowdon and force a sack nearly every time. And Ground v Ice is still very much in Ice's favor even without Avalugg:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-761124239
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-761130882
Instead of relying on Avalugg to defensively check Excadrill, hyper offensive Ice instead relies on its sheer offensive pressure to constantly force sacks against Hippowdon and Excadrill. Also, it's not like Avalugg is gonna be directly switching into it if it's Choice Band:
252 Atk Choice Band Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-761130882
Instead of relying on Avalugg to defensively check Excadrill, hyper offensive Ice instead relies on its sheer offensive pressure to constantly force sacks against Hippowdon and Excadrill. Also, it's not like Avalugg is gonna be directly switching into it if it's Choice Band:
252 Atk Choice Band Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
Weavile's useful offensive utility against many fast threats like Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard Y, Victini, and Mega Diancie are more than enough to secure it a spot in A rank.
As for Lapras, even if PerishPool is up against Staraptor, the momentum would always be in the favor of the Normal player. Not only do they get rid of your Aurora Veil, but they literally have full freedom over whether they want to play the long game against Lapras, or just U-turn out into something that can decimate/force it out. You have no offensive leverage, and you don't even have the trapping component. It's just wasting time and letting in mons for free. Oh, and very few Pokemon on Ice are gonna be appreciating a +2 Rock Blast from a Cloyster, outside of the 3 Rock neutralities, 2 of which barely survive the hit and are easily dealt with by Porygon2. So yeah, the PerishPool set is just completely awful against Normal in practice, and is further reason why Lapras should stay in B rank.
Rotom-Frost was never intended as a screens setter for Ice teams. What it does best is handling Steel-types defensively, whereas Lapras and Walrein have more of an offensive approach. Furthermore, Rotom-Frost can't take the other big physical hits that Avalugg can, which is fine, since it isn't really meant to. Its role is much more specific, and while its recovery isn't as good as Avalugg's, it does have the benefit of not suffering from Toxic Spikes, which is one of the ways Ice loses to both Water and Poison. Volt Switch momentum also makes it much less passive than Avalugg, being able to achieve switch initiative for its offensive teammates. It does have its obvious flaws, like its over-reliance on Aurora Veil to switch into the Pokemon that Avalugg does normally, hence why it's placed one spot below it.
And now for Avalugg, again. Alolan Sandslash running Rapid Spin over Swords Dance does confine it to more of a revenge killing role rather than a sweeping role most of the time. However, it does still get some of the relevant KOs it needs against Fairy teams, such as against Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu after Stealth Rock, as well as Mimikyu. Even with SD you're not really breaking past Clefable unless you're Icium Z and Reflect isn't up, so I don't really see Swords Dance as the prime factor against Fairy, especially when Klefki forces it out 100%. As to answer your question about the Psychic/Fairy/Normal matchups, Psychic is mainly handled through the combined efforts of Weavile, as well as Cloyster to win late-game once Latios and Slowbro are taken care of. Alolan Sandslash can still threaten the necessary Pokemon on Fairy without the need of Swords Dance, and Kyurem-B behind Aurora Veil also plays a major role in this matchup, seeing as it has very few safe switch-ins unless both Light Screen and Reflect are up. I would definitely say Normal is the toughest of the 3 to win, and would require you to run some very specific options such as wallbreaking Mamoswine and Choice Scarf Kyurem-B to punch past both the defensive and offensive core. Avalugg and Alolan Sandslash's benefits in this matchup are rather minimal, since Avalugg can't even safely switch into Mega Lopunny without Aurora Veil up and Stealth Rock removed, and Alolan Sandslash just gets hard-stopped by Porygon2. Even against a type like Fighting, getting rid of Mega Gallade is one of the most important things you can do in that matchup, which makes little sense to discredit one of its premier checks in Weavile. Also Avalugg can't switch into any of these Fighting-types if Stealth Rock is up, and Keldeo switches into and threatens it pretty much evevry time it comes in, so it's not like Avalugg is gonna improve too many chances in that matchup.
Oh, and to add something else, Mamoswine and Alolan Sandslash perform different roles, so I wouldn't say Mamoswine would be better at "the same job." Mamoswine would drop to A rank more due to how much defensive utility Piloswine offers, being able to safely switch into Choice Scarf Nihilego, while also checking Volcarona from full health. I hope I answered all your questions.
You refer to Weavile being able to KO excadrill with shard after 2 LO recoils but for the calc on Avalugg you use the Choice Band set. Not that it matters much when it comes to damage done to Avalugg, but Excadrill RARELY runs Life Orb. Which means Weavile won't be knocking it out with an Ice Shard any time soon.
I'm not sure how you see Weavile doing a great job against Mega Diancie besides revenge killing it if it's very low.
My Cloyster does not run Rock Blast. It runs Hydro Pump, Icicle Spear, HP Fire and Shell Smash. So it can't do anything against my own team. I honestly do not think Cloyster should run Rock Blast if you intend to use Mamoswine, let alone Mamoswine, Kyurem B and A-Slash. More than enough to deal with fire types. HP Fire allows for easy counter access to Ferrothorn and Mega-Scizor, even without a Shell Smash. We might have a different opinion on that though?
I'm not convinced by your arguments that Rotom-Frost deserves to stay in B. Saying it needs Aurora Veil and can pivot around your ice team, which generally lacks resistances (and Volt Switch can be predicted) doesn't sound all that convincing. Adding in the factor Rotom's speed is not the highest in the entire world, I still think Rotom-Frost should drop down at least a rank. I do not see any need to use it, ever. It will be a liability, more than Walrein and Lapras can be (disregarding Lapras' set) even though they are in the same tier.
Referring to your matchups: I guess I can agree most of that. I don't think Weavile is bad against Psychic and Normal at all. Especially since it threatens normal types with both Knock Off (Chansey/Porygon 2) and Low Kick against something like Snorlax (not that it is commonly ran). While I agree that pursuit is good against Victini -1, I think it's too niche to take Pursuit for mainly one pokémon. I'd rather run Knock Off and gravely damage whatever he puts in after that. Knock Off even KO's Victini at full hp. You'll probably still not want to risk it first turn though, since you never know if it's scarfed anyway making you auto lose the matchup.
Although I agree with Weavile's usefulness, I still don't think it's up to par with most of the threats in the A-tier. Then again, it's better than anything below it. I guess staying in A is fine.
I still think Rotom-Frost should drop to rank C.
Since Trapras has been working for me, but not for you, I guess we just have different opinions on how good it is. Maybe it fits my team comp or playstyle more than yours. I think it's up to the board members to see for themselves.
Toxapex > Tentacruel?
Based on your earlier posts, i don't think you know how poison works exactly. Especially because toxapex and tentacruel play wayy different roles on poison. A friend of mine got to 5th place on the mono ladder with just his poison team that consists of venumega, tentacruel, weezing, muk alola, Nidoqueen and Crobat. Which means you don't have to run 100% S and A tier mons to make a viable team.
To answer this question, yes he fits perfectly in a poison mono team. Weezing has the added benefit of levitate + high phys defense, haze and wil-o-wisp and flamethrower coverage.
Fred (Weezing) @ Icium Z
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze (Z-Haze has the added effect of fully recovering the user)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Pain Split / Sludge Bomb
This works wonders versus possible physical threats like Landorus, Dragonite, Scizor and Excadrill (especially the sand force/rush variant) (the list goes on).
Sure, it's not S tier, but it can be really useful if you play your cards right.
Do you have any replay of him playing? I was curious, because without Nihilego, his team lost offensive power, he traded Nihilego for Wezzing, that must have been a big problem against S.Atk teams, if there is no one to play like him or could explain How did he use Wezzing?
Toxapex is considered the best in its function among Poison-type pokemons, but before Toxapex, Tentacruel was just the most used in the same function, because it is a Spiner (but the same loses in survival to the Toxapex, wins in the damage it seems)...
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I disagree with this nomination.
Cradily is not a meta-defining wall in itself but rather a adequate Special Wall that supplements Grass's true defensive powerhouses, the S-ranks Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn. Cradily takes pressure off of Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn to manage offensive threats, keeping Ferrothorn's lack of recovery or Mega Venusaur's low synthesis PP from becoming problematic. It can also checks a few key threats that the other two cannot manage, such as Mega Charizard Y.
However, while Cradily may be an important part of Grass's defensive core and the type's best defensive answer to threats like Volcarona, Charizard Y, and Blacephelon, it's still not a good answer. Cradily struggles to manage these threats: it can't check Volcarona breaks if it runs Bug Buzz or Firium Z, which forces the Grass player to sack a different Pokemon to burn the Z-move before it can reliably check. Cradily cannot switch into Mega Charizard Y either. As for the other examples, Cradily can only check Taunt-less Hydreigon. And in general, Cradily is easily managed and a heavy momentum drain.
Finally, I don't think Cradily deserves as an S-ranking just because its use is highly recommended or even borderline mandatory for Grass. A Pokemon's ranking should reflect their relative effectiveness in the meta in which case I feel that A-rank is appropiate for Cradily for the reasons stated above. There are plenty of other Pokemon ranked at A—Alola Raichu (Electric), Tapu Bulu (Fairy), Garchomp (Dragon)—that are likewise "essential" to their type but are relatively less important than the S-ranks.
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Whats up I'm back people and I disagree with rotom going to C
Like smub said, even before defog rotom was B because of its ability to be a bulky pivot with volt switch, hand out status, offer some item control if you run scarf or specs, and most importantly check scizor if evd correctly. Defog offers much needed assistance and helps to take weight off of the spinner to constantly come in whenever the opponent manages to get rocks up. It's also one of the only hazard removers on ice that actually offers some offensive pressure. Now if we look at the other B ranks (Lapras and Walrein), rotom offers around the same if not more utility to a team than the other two. And if we look at the C ranks(frosslass and cryognal), rotom is nowhere near as niche as those two.
Lapras and Walrein both deal with Scizor, Ferrothorn and Celesteela more effectively than Rotom can. His only benefit is Defog - which also removes your rocks, albeit getting rocks on your side gone is probably always beneficial as ice.
Tornadus-T (Flying) C ---> B: Agree
Tornadus-T has been showing up on more and more teams in high-level play and it isn't too hard to see why. It makes for a great offensive Deffoger thanks to its great Speed and SpAtk with respectable bulk. Regenerator lets it heal off excess chip from Stealth Rocks or weak attacks, letting it stay healthy without draining an unnecessary amount of momentum. It also has a stellar movepool, with support options such as Taunt, Defog, U-Turn, and Knock Off, and strong offensive moves such as Hurricane, Heat Wave, and Superpower which lets it suprise it's usual switch ins. All-in-all Tornadus-T is a splashable and consistently useful presence on both balanced on offensive Flying teams which deserves to rise to B.
Now let me get into some of my own noms.
Salazzle (Poison) Unranked ---> D/C
Salazzle's ability Corrosion gives it a solid niche on Poison teams as a way of dealing with opposing Poison and Steel types with a no-safe-switch-in Toxic. This is usually combined with SubTect on top of its good Speed tier allows it to torment opposing balance teams, however other options like Choice Scarf or Life Orb are certainly usable. In addition it's Fire STABs let it wallbreak against Steels, especially if Heatran is hit by a Toxic and unable to consistently pivot in. While it is far less useful vs offensive teams and has subpar defensive typing, it has a unique and notable niche that deserves it a place on the VR, albiet a low one.
Rotom-Mow (Electric) Unranked ---> D/C
Rotom-Mow is another mon that has made a decent amount of appearances recently at high-level play. Simply put it does one thing and does it well: destroy Ground teams. Rotom-Mow turns a normally arduous matchup into a straight forward one when running an offensive spread thanks to its ability to OHKO both Hippowdon and Seismitoad/Gastrodon with Leaf Storm and deal heavy damage to any switch-ins, letting it be a consistent offensive threat in a particularly annoying mu.
It also can provide the same utility as Rotom-Wash: Will-O-Wisp, Defog, Pain Split, Volt Switch; whatever is needed/wanted on the team. The opportunity cost of losing a great defensive pivot in Rotom-Wash is admittedly high, and it carries annoying weaknesses to Fire, Ice, Poison, and Bug. However, it allows the rest of the team to run sets less focused on dealing with Ground-types due to it beating them/forcing them out by clicking its strongest STAB move. This niche should earn it a spot on the VR.
Tornadus-T has been showing up on more and more teams in high-level play and it isn't too hard to see why. It makes for a great offensive Deffoger thanks to its great Speed and SpAtk with respectable bulk. Regenerator lets it heal off excess chip from Stealth Rocks or weak attacks, letting it stay healthy without draining an unnecessary amount of momentum. It also has a stellar movepool, with support options such as Taunt, Defog, U-Turn, and Knock Off, and strong offensive moves such as Hurricane, Heat Wave, and Superpower which lets it suprise it's usual switch ins. All-in-all Tornadus-T is a splashable and consistently useful presence on both balanced on offensive Flying teams which deserves to rise to B.
Now let me get into some of my own noms.
Salazzle (Poison) Unranked ---> D/C
Salazzle's ability Corrosion gives it a solid niche on Poison teams as a way of dealing with opposing Poison and Steel types with a no-safe-switch-in Toxic. This is usually combined with SubTect on top of its good Speed tier allows it to torment opposing balance teams, however other options like Choice Scarf or Life Orb are certainly usable. In addition it's Fire STABs let it wallbreak against Steels, especially if Heatran is hit by a Toxic and unable to consistently pivot in. While it is far less useful vs offensive teams and has subpar defensive typing, it has a unique and notable niche that deserves it a place on the VR, albiet a low one.
Rotom-Mow (Electric) Unranked ---> D/C
Rotom-Mow is another mon that has made a decent amount of appearances recently at high-level play. Simply put it does one thing and does it well: destroy Ground teams. Rotom-Mow turns a normally arduous matchup into a straight forward one when running an offensive spread thanks to its ability to OHKO both Hippowdon and Seismitoad/Gastrodon with Leaf Storm and deal heavy damage to any switch-ins, letting it be a consistent offensive threat in a particularly annoying mu.
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 616-732 (162.5 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 386-456 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 856-1012 (200.9 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 210-247 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 220-261 (68.9 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 259-306 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 386-456 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 856-1012 (200.9 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 210-247 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 220-261 (68.9 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 259-306 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also can provide the same utility as Rotom-Wash: Will-O-Wisp, Defog, Pain Split, Volt Switch; whatever is needed/wanted on the team. The opportunity cost of losing a great defensive pivot in Rotom-Wash is admittedly high, and it carries annoying weaknesses to Fire, Ice, Poison, and Bug. However, it allows the rest of the team to run sets less focused on dealing with Ground-types due to it beating them/forcing them out by clicking its strongest STAB move. This niche should earn it a spot on the VR.
Actually, neither Lapras nor Walrein are able to beat Celesteela from full health, since it's able to survive any attack from them with above half health remaining and can Leech Seed stall. Rotom-F gets into somewhat of a stalemate against Celesteela between Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split while getting worn down by Leech Seed and Flamethrower. None of the 3 Pokemon are are able to outright beat Celesteela, so it shouldn't really be used as an argument against Rotom-F.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 159-187 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 139-165 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- 75.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 139-165 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- 75.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alternatively, the Celesteela could easily choose to Protect against Lapras/Walrein to scout what attack they lock themselves into before switching into Ferrothorn or Heatran to effortlessly absorb the hit. Whereas with Rotom-F, it doesn't suffer the burden of being locked into a single move, and can Volt Switch for momentum against the incoming Heatran if the situation ever comes to that. So overall, despite not being able to beat it, Rotom-F still has more utility against Celesteela than Lapras/Walrein do.
A lot of this also applies to Ferrothorn, except if Rotom-F is carrying Hidden Power Fire, it's able to beat Ferrothorn 1v1. Lapras/Walrein still have to worry about the Protect scouting, and if they predict wrong, Ferrothorn just gets a free Spike or Leech Seed.
As for Mega Scizor, Lapras and Walrein are only capable of reliably handling the defensive variants, since they can outspeed those before they U-turn out. Offensive variants can very easily outspeed and threaten to KO both of them with a Superpower, with Aurora Veil being mitigated by a Swords Dance boost. Rotom-F can outspeed and cripple both Mega Scizor variants with Will-O-Wisp, and can wear them down with Hidden Power Fire and Pain Split.
Overall, Rotom-F just has a lot more variability in the Steel matchup compared to Lapras and Walrein. This in combination with its access to entry hazard removal makes it a worthy candidate for B rank.
Not every Celesteela runs max sp defense though, as that just opens it op for 70-80% damage fusion bolt from Kyurem B or whatever it is. I don't think you have to beat Celesteela with one pokémon in two turns though. As long as you can chip it and get rid of leech seed by switching its ok
I can see your reasoning, but there are questionable points on what you have addressed. First, I believe Cradily does define the metagame for that type (read 3rd paragraph for a better understanding), because as I have mentioned previously, it is pretty hard to imagine any Grass-build lacking this particular Pokemon, and doing so would heavily handicap one person on teambuilding, especially considering that it has always played an essential role in balance archetypes, the only viable on its type. The ability to check threats like Volcarona and Charizard-Y are actually a godsend considering how the type as a whole struggles to these Pokemon, and not just Cradily.
Secondly, the momentum argument. Cradily is a defensive Pokemon, so it is expected that will lack momentum, just as the many Pokemon that consitute Grass teams, which is an inherent weakness of the team. This means that, any option you would consider over Cradily will probably be just as bad in that aspect. It also should be noted that, this does not necessarily make it ''easily managable'', because most of the special attackers Cradily is staying against or switching into have a hard time breaking it, and they have to make riskier plays (double switches) to effectively handle this pokemon. Even still, this does not take away Cradily's importance to act as a solid Stealth Rock setter on many matchups that others (Ferrothorn or Celebi) wouldn't be able to get the job done so effectively.
Thirdly, the comparison argument. Cradily does just as well as any of the Pokemon that are ranked S. Mentioning that it ''suplements Grass defenses'' is also a questionable point given how limited Ferrothorn + Mega-Venusaur core can be defensively without Cradily in many matchups, incluiding but not limited to: Fire, Flying, Poison, Steel, Bug, Dragon, and even Water Vincune variants that Grass teams have a hard time handling. That being said, I believe it is more appropriate to consider Cradily an essential part of this defensive core rather than ''an optional, supplementary addition that is important.'' You could even compare it to Tapu Bulu, a S-rank pokemon that has less overall utility than Cradily, and still struggles vs the common threats Grass teams have (Celesteela, Mega-Venusaur, Mega-Scizor, etc).
Finally, is very important to address that Grass is a low tier type. The team has potential problems versus many important threats of the metagame, and thus it shouldn't be used as an argument to target a specific Pokemon, especially when it can check or help against a majority of those threats that were mentioned. (tldr don't expect a mon to fix everything)
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Subtoxic Salazzle has always seemed gimmicky to me. Nasty Plot with Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, and either Toxic or HP Ground for Heatran/TTar would take advantage of its stat spread better. It can help with the poison mirror and the steel matchup, but Nidoking helps with those too. Ground STAB hits both types for supereffective damage and it has fire type moves for the ground resists on steel. Not to mention that its poor defenses and defensive typing means that a SubToxic set can be forced out by anything that resists fire A case can be made for D but C is too high in my opinion.
I can agree with lawnmower to D for electric. In addition to helping with the ground matchup, it can switch into mold breaker Excadrill better.
Washtom has a better typing and hydro pump is a better move in general, so I wouldn't push it past D.
Also Moosical made some wall post some time ago and I wanted to share my thoughts on one of the nominations.
Thundurus-I (Electric): B->A Agree
In addition to supplying a ground immunity, Thundurus is able to break through walls that Electric normally struggles with. Superpower, especially if banded or with knock off support, slams Chansey (P2 needs to have its Eviolite removed). Z-Fly can nuke bulky grasses such as Mega Venusaur (poison player will switch into Muk on Raichu to pursuit trap it).
Edit: oh ok I guess we can use zeraora now
And a nomination of my own:
Slurpuff C->D
Why is this in C again? From what I can tell it moved up from D rank on the SM VR (I guess because of sticky web), but Ribombee outclasses it as a sticky web setter. The only advantage Slurpuff has with that niche is access to endeavor (and flamethrower). Ribombee is faster, has stun spore, can pivot, and can even set up with quiver dance. In addition, webs fairy isn't all that great to begin with. Azumarill is a better belly drum sweeper with a more useful typing for fairy all while having almost double the base attack stat that Slurpuff has when huge power is accounted for. There is little justification to using it, and the VR should reflect that.
I can agree with lawnmower to D for electric. In addition to helping with the ground matchup, it can switch into mold breaker Excadrill better.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Mow: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Washtom has a better typing and hydro pump is a better move in general, so I wouldn't push it past D.
Also Moosical made some wall post some time ago and I wanted to share my thoughts on one of the nominations.
Thundurus-I (Electric): B->A Agree
In addition to supplying a ground immunity, Thundurus is able to break through walls that Electric normally struggles with. Superpower, especially if banded or with knock off support, slams Chansey (P2 needs to have its Eviolite removed). Z-Fly can nuke bulky grasses such as Mega Venusaur (poison player will switch into Muk on Raichu to pursuit trap it).
Edit: oh ok I guess we can use zeraora now
And a nomination of my own:
Slurpuff C->D
Why is this in C again? From what I can tell it moved up from D rank on the SM VR (I guess because of sticky web), but Ribombee outclasses it as a sticky web setter. The only advantage Slurpuff has with that niche is access to endeavor (and flamethrower). Ribombee is faster, has stun spore, can pivot, and can even set up with quiver dance. In addition, webs fairy isn't all that great to begin with. Azumarill is a better belly drum sweeper with a more useful typing for fairy all while having almost double the base attack stat that Slurpuff has when huge power is accounted for. There is little justification to using it, and the VR should reflect that.
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