Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

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I think many people are exaggerating how "crazy" a Bruxish/Tsareena-free metagame would be. Haaku has said himself how problematic speed-boosting abilities are, but if there weren't anti-priority abilities on the abusing teams, they would be much more reasonably dealt with. I'm not even suggesting that Lele is an issue, because at least terrain can be circumvented.
As for people claiming things like Gale Wings spam would be OP: bring a mon with Fake Out. Or bring a bulky flying resist. ESpeed is still extremely limited to certain mons, and it's not terribly difficult to determine which ones they are and how to prepare for them.
I've seen quite a few Mold Breaker Triage Pangoro on the ladder and you know how I deal with them? I have a fighting resist. Clefable, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, etc. can all switch into Pangoro easily.
Priority is in no way a problem in this metagame, but the lack of it certainly is. A metagame in which fast offense can go unchecked by priority is a meta in which fast offense will always be overbearing. I think the removal of these 2 abilities will keep offense more in check without negatively affecting stall or bulkier playstyles.
 
Something really should be done about the stall vs stall matchup. As I already said, it is almost guaranteed to be a tie due to every mon having regen, multiscale and magic guard/pheal, so that outdamaging regenerator is almost impossible and the best strategy for both players is to switch endlessly - but showdown doesn't offer a draw option so that such battles often have to be abandoned by switching the timer off and leaving the room or timing out simultaneously (which doesn't work if the timer was already active before and one player needed more time than the other) - having to switch for 1000 turns just to be able to actually tie the match is just dumb and a waste of time.
 
ive got a fun team, its a new form of Bird Spam!

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Mirror Move
- Roost

Honchkrow @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Mirror Move
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Aqua Tail
- Stone Edge
- Hone Claws

Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spikes
- Brave Bird


staraptor may be better because of reckless, but i like this team the way it is. originally was running clef over sigilyph, but it just seemed unnecessary. never really had to stall anyone out, we just sniped with talonflame. rocks dont hurt my birds, and saves their sturdy. sheer force allows them to run a life orb and rock head means they dont take recoil from their priority brave birds.
 
photonstream6 said:
ive got a fun team, its a new form of Bird Spam!

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Mirror Move
- Roost

Honchkrow @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Mirror Move
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Aqua Tail
- Stone Edge
- Hone Claws

Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spikes
- Brave Bird


staraptor may be better because of reckless, but i like this team the way it is. originally was running clef over sigilyph, but it just seemed unnecessary. never really had to stall anyone out, we just sniped with talonflame. rocks dont hurt my birds, and saves their sturdy. sheer force allows them to run a life orb and rock head means they dont take recoil from their priority brave birds.
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magic guard does what rock head does. and you get life orb immunity from magic guard already
 
With the prominence of Weak Armor, Stamina, and Marvel Scale, plus the fact that the meta seems short on generalized special walls, I've found that spamming special attacks is a good strategy. This team let me peak #7 -- might try to climb up higher later. Here's the team, and here's the peak.

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magnezone.gif
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The general premise is that you deal a fuckload of damage with consecutive Solar-Powered Contrary Overheats from Mega Houndoom and Ninetales, so the rest of the team is there to make that easier. Their sets should be pretty self-explanatory, so I won't explain them other than to say that Unnerve is a useful pre-mega ability on Houndoom. Tapu Lele protects the team from priority (which ruins it otherwise) while having a damn good damage output in its own right, and is a Scarf user in case that comes in handy. Alakazam is a utility mon that has two options for punishing Guts teams that don't run Protect (and they spread paralysis and remove items, I GUESS), alongside Counter to reliably handle one physical attacker. Magnezone is the only good specially-oriented Sturdy user, and it's good for tanking hits from Cloyster and Mega Beedrill (which can wreck the team if you're not careful) and forcing the opposing lead out so it'll become subject to webs. Shuckle exists to set webs (extremely important for speed control), maybe set rocks, and then KO itself to break Sturdy.

It has kind of a bad matchup vs. faster Sturdy teams (such as ones that use Unburden or Quick Feet) and the Prankster+Unaware-wielding bulky teams, and some Skill Link teams require it to tread carefully, but it can hold its own vs. the other offensive archetypes at a minimum. A lot of games are decided at team preview, and Mega Houndoom plows through the entire opposition effortlessly.

As for banning stuff... man, I don't know. If we want a legitimately non-matchup-based metagame that has playstyles other than stall and HO, Magic Guard, Skill Link, Quick Feet, Poison Heal, Unburden, Weak Armor, Regenerator, Queenly Majesty, and Dazzling would probably have to be restricted. The meta is barely holding itself together between all of these strats, and I think removing just one or two would just let one of the unaffected playstyles run rampant. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't make a fuckload of bans, I'm just saying I really doubt that dealing with whatever's the biggest problem at any given moment will produce a 'desirable' meta.
 
I know a lot of people have been waiting for this post, and here it is. Shared Power has been out for more than enough time to help us identify what is broken and what is not broken, and we’ve come up with a new clause that helps us solve the metagame’s main problem while simultaneously simplifying the banlist so that it’s not as huge. I know there are multiple hot topics right now, but we have to take things one step at a time.

Unburden has proven to be just as bad even with Seed Clause. People have still found a way to get an automatic boost thanks to White Herb, Contrary, and Download. Not just this, but strategies with Belly Drum and Sitrus Berry or even Gluttony on teams is too much to face for archetypes like Guts spam. It is evident that Unburden is not desirable in the metagame moving forward. Moving on,

Weak Armor is stupidly good in tandem with Defiant. Teams can obtain a doubled Speed boost just like Unburden teams, except they can also receive a boost in Attack thanks to the Defiant boost. It’s effectively a free double dance upon any physical attacker, and makes physical attackers outside of stuff like Skill Link abusers rather obscure. It’s quite clear that Shared Power is better off without this ravaging the metagame as well.

Quick Feet is likely the “least broken” out of the big three, because it gives a +1 boost to Speed rather than a +2 boost. However, it can stack abilities like Guts, Toxic Boost, and Poison Heal onto the team, making normal teams unable to answer it unless they have a Choice Scarf user that can manage to outspeed and beat everything on the team. This is a very unrealistic expectation that restricts teambuilding and thus shouldn’t be present in the metagame.

These three abilities are all very problematic. More importantly, they are all very similar, so the council has decided to clause everything together and unveil a new clause: Speed Abilities Clause

Speed Abilities Clause: ALL abilities that strictly boost Speed are banned from sharing.

This would mean the removal of the rather unnecessary Seed Clause, and it would also simplify our banlist heavily. I understand that the inclusion of this clause would mean that obviously balanced abilities like Rattled aren’t shareable, but they aren’t useful nor common, so this collateral damage is very minimal. The already banned Chloropyll, Sand Rush, Slush Rush, Swift Swim, and Surge Surfer would be added on to this clause as well, and removed from the listed banlist. It’s up to time now to test how the metagame will do after this change takes effect, but I can already predict an influx of hard-hitting teams, since they do not have to be afraid of faster teams simply outspeeding every single time. As a result, stall will be less effective and, while these stall vs stall matchups are still unhealthy for our metagame, it’s a step for now. I’d like to thank both aGroove and that ivy guy for helping me come up with this. Besides that, the ladder has been very fun for me so far, and here’s for a balanced metagame!

Tagging The Immortal to remove the Seed Clause from the banlist, remove Speed Boost, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Swift Swim, Slush Rush, Surge Surfer from the banlist, and to create and add “Speed Abilities Clause” which restricts all Speed boosting abilities, which are:

Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Slush Rush, Swift Swim, Surge Surfer, Unburden, Weak Armor, Quick Feet, Rattled, Speed Boost

This does NOT include Beast Boost, Prankster, Gale Wings, etc because they do not strictly boost Speed, they boost the highest stat (Beast Boost) and the priority bracket. This does not include Motor Drive because it is an immunity primarily rather than a Speed-boosting tactic.
 
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Haaku. said:
Tagging The Immortal to remove the Seed Clause from the banlist, remove Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Swift Swim, Slush Rush, Surge Surfer from the banlist, and to create and add “Speed Abilities Clause” which restricts all Speed boosting abilities, which are:

Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Slush Rush, Swift Swim, Surge Surfer, Unburden, Weak Armor, Quick Feet, Rattled
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Justified is +1 Attack instead of speed, but other than that, right on!
 
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Thank goodness that they have been banned.

POKEMON SHOWDOWN have you implemented this yet?

Butterfingers2020 said:
I'm just going to say - Sturdy + Magic Guard takes 0 skill and can be countered by almost nothing. I think just ban magic guard so nobody will be this broken. With sturdy, you can break sashes, and Magic Bounce + Sturdy will be annoying AF, but this needs to be taken care of ASAP. I can think of almost 0 counters to this playstyle, and it needs a ban effectively immediately.
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Multi hit teams are becoming more prevalent.
 
Speed boosting ban has not been implemented yet, unfortunately.

I've been playing the shit out of this ladder the last couple days on my test accounts Fkptest and Fkptest2, and wanted to make some general remarks. I peaked at 1460, rank 13 today but quickly dropped back to ~1380 because I forgot to swap to my second alt to test a new team.

Anyway, on to the game mode:

Mode's whack, yo. There are a ton of gimmicks that will 6-0 unprepared teams, and some teams flat out hard counter others, so the trick to laddering is to identify whether or not a match is winnable and then brainlessly mash buttons/click X until victory is achieved. This game mode is almost all teambuilding strength, as actual in-game play is in general much more rigid and fast-paced than the regular metagames.

Some notes about some specific combos and abilities that struck me as overpowered or incredibly centralizing:

First and foremost: Unaware is overcentralizing as heck. It's crucial on Stall, but that's so well known I won't talk about it. The kicker is that It's equally good on Offense. It's so good I will literally never run a team without it now. Defensively, it stops Beast Boost/Moxie sweeps in their tracks. It prevents Contrary shenanigans by anything not named Kyurem-Black. It negates all of the incidental boosting that occurs in this metagame, and gives Offense some of its best options against opposing offense.

Offensively it's just as important. Why? It nullifies Stamina, for one, removing the sole effective counter to Skill Link. It's downright mandatory on Skill Link teams for this reason. More importantly, it also gets rid of defensive boosting Pokemon such as CM Clefable and Iron Defense/CM Mega Slowbro, which can and WILL 6-0 Toxic Orb and Rain Offense without Unaware. It's an ability that completely breaks most team archtypes, and I can confidently say that a team with Unaware has almost unbeatable matchups against teams that lack it.

I advocate for an Unaware ban, considering that even with one user it would still be incredibly useful. Giving the entire team the ability to ignore stat changes is ridiculously powerful in this meta.

Weak Armor/Defiant's been talked to death already, but I think some people didn't realize that you can effectively use it with Skill Link teams instead of just as a counter - you can end up with monstrously boosted Cinccinos and Beedrills after an Endure. It's banned now, thankfully.

Guts/Toxic Boost/Marvel Scale/Poison Heal stacking is stupidly powerful, but struggles to switch in to offensive teams, and relies heavily on Protecting on a turn your opponent doesn't set up on. With the banning of Quick Feet it's going to become less annoying to work around, however, especially as the Pokemon required for this strategy are not particularly fast or bulky on their own.

Tough Claws/Aerilate/Adaptability Dragonite is whack. Scarf DNite destroys teams with Return or Espeed, no setup needed. Lead Pinsir, break whatever shit you can with Return, then send in this big boy and you've got a pretty good chance of ending the game right there, depending on how many resists your opponent has.

Multiscale/Stamina is really powerful when combined with recovery. The former is in general broken as heck and I could definitely see it getting banned. Its only shareable weakness is to Skill Link... which is where Stamina comes in. Combining these two makes for very bulky offense or nigh-unbreakable stall. I've been running it in conjunction with Magic Bounce and Mega Slowbro, who just sets up CM on pretty much anything and 6-0s teams by along with DD Dragonite.

Skill Link is just... really good. It invalidates Multiscale, Focus Sash and Sturdy, which are otherwise incredibly powerful. Combined with Mega Beedrill's Adaptability and Cinccino's Technician, as it normally is, it provides the same level of punch the aforementioned Guts combo does, but with better abusers. About the only thing preventing this from being broken is Stamina, which is why I think Unaware is absolutely mandatory on Skill Link offense.

Prankster/Destiny Bond/Magic Bounce is nuts vs offense, and I'm not sure what the counter is. Slow DBond users like Mega Banette can guarantee that they will never go down without taking a Pokemon with them, since they effectively have Destiny Bond permanently up as long as they alternate between DBonding and attacking. Any tips for dealing with this?

And finally, Innards Out/Regenerator is very good against teams that either don't have Magic Guard or Skill Link. Very, very situational, but actually a gigantic pain in the ass against any offensive archetype without counters.
 
I believe that we should ban Stamina. It's effectively better than Fur Coat and Fluffy, and Mudsdale isn't even bad. It completely invalidates Skill Link and honestly makes stall near unbeatable. Even the hard hitting offense teams can't break through due to the constant recovery.
 
Level 1000 Weedle said:
I believe that we should ban Stamina. It's effectively better than Fur Coat and Fluffy, and Mudsdale isn't even bad. It completely invalidates Skill Link and honestly makes stall near unbeatable. Even the hard hitting offense teams can't break through due to the constant recovery.
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The thing with Skill Link teams is that they tend to run Unaware in order to stop Stamina. Honestly, Unaware on offensive archetypes is proving to be pretty good despite all of its donors being momentum drainers for the playstyle.
 
thechurchofcage said:
Banning all of them is just annoying, we're going to see Scarfed everything on every team now...
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thats just silly. what would you rather see, a bunch of mons restricted to one move, or entire teams being able to outspeed your entire team almost naturally with priority doing jack shit to them.. like really, if people are actually desperate enough to scarf most their mons, they are putting themselves at a massive disadvantage.
 
Haaku. said:
The thing with Skill Link teams is that they tend to run Unaware in order to stop Stamina. Honestly, Unaware on offensive archetypes is proving to be pretty good despite all of its donors being momentum drainers for the playstyle.
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Yes but running unburden for Stamina makes you lose a team slot. I've been running hard hitting offense, which used to be able to beat stall, and now it just loses to Stamina. If I add Unaware I lose Tough Claws, which I probably need to break through bulky teams. I'll try it, but when you have to run 1 ability to be able to beat the teams you're supposed to be good against you're at a big disadvantage. For my team I need Blaziken, Magic Guard (helps HJK and Flare Blitz), Dazzling (Speed Boost is worthless against priority), and damage modifying abilities. I'm currently using Tough Claws, Hustle, and No Guard, but I'll be a lot weaker if I have to run Unaware instead of Tough Claws.
 
Exploudit said:
This meta looks fun! But isn't the team below a little unbeatable?
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Like, how do you beat Fluffy + Unaware + Regen? It even has Flash Fire so the opponent can't take advantage of Fluffy! You'd be inclined to use a special attacker to break through this, right? But Is there any Special Attacker Chansey doesn't wall without set up?

I think something has to be done to address this kind of team, cuz' it genuinely seems broken, before you say anything about Corrosion, keep in mind Chansey has Natural Cure, but even then, Poison Heal would also be a great option here. Mold Breaker is restricted, so it's impossible to ignore Unaware and Magic Bounce.

I know that this is all theorymonning, but I can't think of any broken strategy that would let me beat this type of team...
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Very Easily with Mold Breaker Pangoro with Guts support.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699164275
 
I've been trying to use gale wings and aerilate on a team but either gale wings or aerilate do not transfer to other mons. This a bug or is one of them not shared?
 
I'm super against banning Unaware. Not because it's not centralizing, it is, but if we ban it there's literally nothing stopping Beast Boost+Moxie/Soul Heart or Contrary teams from running the tier. It's a necessary evil unless we want to ban like 5 or more abilities on top of that. I think a question that needs to be asked is how do we get close to balance (because pure balance here is an impossibility imo) without the tier becoming too restrictive or stale/uninteresting.

Edit: Also unrelated but Pangoro is ridiculous just sayin'
 
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