Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)

[LORD HELIX 65]

I already feel the brain cells being lost responding to this thread, but I want to make one thing abundantly clear to every new player on the site, regardless of what you think:

http://www.smogon.com/about
http://www.smogon.com/philosophy

I believe it's high time to read more about Smogon's pages in regards to its actual point of the site. The main point of Smogon is to promote competitive battling, not creativity.

In Smogon the mentality to take forward is to play to win, not to purposely gimp yourself for the sake of having "fun" arbitrarily.

so what you're trying to say is.....

 

[Escavalier Royale]

So, this thread is little but cheap one-liner insults and complaining instead of actual discussion. Ah well, here's my input anyway:

I don't think Ambipom really "fits" in UU and expect it to fall quite soon, likely the next tiering update now that the meme is over. It simply doesn't contribute enough compared to an actual UU 'mon. Hell, in Aim's videos themselves you can see how inconsistent it was. However, there isn't much to do until that happens- tiering is based on usage, Ambipom has met that criteria. It's far from the only 'mon we've seen rise to tiers beyond it's estimated competitive value. In Gen 5(?) Charizard had more Ubers usage than actual Ubers because of low ladder, plus stuff like Donphan always seems to be tiered bizarrely highly. This is but the latest in a long list of memes.

Donphan was OU in Gen 5 despite its analysis even saying it wasn't a good mon. So this shows that this problem indeed persists for some time.

But low-ladder ubers should just be ignored as it's just absolutely terrible. There's a difference in using mediocre mons to shake a boring tier up a bit and just mindlessly using mons that have zero niches over their competition. Really, I've seen so many Jolteons low-ladder that it's become scary.

 

[Talpr0ne]

so what you're trying to say is.....

View attachment 100570

Fun is entirely subjective, what if one's notion of fun includes winning a lot and doesn't involve running unviable shitmons?

 

[Cuddly]

You actually think a bunch of Pewdiepie or even Verlis fans would be good enough to get reqs lol

I do and unironically. You got to remember this is the internet. The 4chan board /pol/ was able to find Shia Labeouf's HWNDU flag on a live stream where the camera was only pointing at the sky, using only the sunset, animal noises, airplanes, one person one Twitter, and the constellations, all in under 2 days. Then /pol/ did it again with guards, found Shia's cabin in the woods, and then found a third flag that's inside a room with only a window out of view (although I don't think anyone stole it that time).
If a bunch of random people communicating through an anonymous image board can do that, then a popular YouTube channel can easily get any Pokemon trapped in tier purgatory (Just like how they did with Ambipom). They could probably get Magikarp in OU with a big enough channel. You also got to remember it's not just PewDiePie or Verlisify, but hundreds to thousands of YouTube channels too. Someone with a decent amount of subscribers/followers that was willing to screw over usage with meme raids can easily due so.

 

[luka600]

Ambipom's not hot

 

[Escavalier Royale]

I have never said that Ambipom is not outclassed. Infernape is better than Ambi and I am fully aware of that.
And, at least in my comments, I have never said that Ambipom is a meta-defining Pokémon. It's never going to be one, but it is not complete trash like a lot of people have said in this lovely thread. It just has a niche in UU. That's it.

Parasect has a niche in OU with having Spore without being weak to Psychic. Any mon has niches if you look good enough. That doesn't make them good.

 

[GustavoR]

I already feel the brain cells being lost responding to this thread, but I want to make one thing abundantly clear to every new player on the site, regardless of what you think:

http://www.smogon.com/about
http://www.smogon.com/philosophy

I believe it's high time to read more about Smogon's pages in regards to its actual point of the site. The main point of Smogon is to promote competitive battling, not creativity.

In Smogon the mentality to take forward is to play to win, not to purposely gimp yourself for the sake of having "fun" arbitrarily.

Well sometimes the point of only promoting competitive battles end up turning everything into a kinda boring meta where only a few Pokémon see usage (like OU nowadays). I am completely aware that there are Pokémon that simply outclass others (like in RBY OU where Jolteon and Zapdos outclass Raichu), but it seems like if I wanna use something different in a tier I will get a lot of hate because I am not using a "top threat" or a "meta-defining" mon.
What if Ambipom is my favorite Pokémon and I wanna use it just because I like it? (Ambipom isn't really my favorite, but it's just an example)

Parasect has a niche in OU with having Spore without being weak to Psychic. Any mon has niches if you look good enough. That doesn't make them good.

And have I said that Ambipom is the best in UU or something?
My point was to say that Ambipom is not a terrible Pokémon.
It's not the best or close to being the best, but it's not straight up garbage.

 

[Colonial]

yeah, low ladder is a lot more fun suprisingly, with more fun and innovative sets than high ladder. You get to see lower tier mons much more and see that they might actually put in work and have a nice niche, but go undiscovered alot because the meta focuses on only 15 mons when there are over 800 to try, while you cant use all of them because they may be banned or something, innovation is key in this game imo. Showdown needs to make changes soon imo.

If said lower-ladder 'mons were truly viable in OU or UU or whatever meta is in question, they would be seen outside of low ladder. Either through higher ladder players picking them up, or by simply carrying their low ladder users higher due to their effectiveness. The fact that all too often these things do not occur indicates that these gimmicks don't work or become too unreliable to create results in higher rankings. Innovation is key in this game... meaningful innovation that has an end result that is more effective than whatever came before.

Also, why are you not using something now because it might be banned later? It's not like it costs you anything to use.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

RBY OU is actually really good at exploiting a Pokémon's niches and how relevant these niches are. All Kangaskhan sets carry Surf, as that's what it has over Tauros. All Seadra carry Smokescreen, as that's the only thing it can do better than other Water-types. Raichu uses Surf because it kills Golem and Rhydon ajd that's the only reason to use it over Jolteon and Zapdos. Despite RBY OU appearing to be really stale (most teams are Tauros+Snorlax+Chansey+Psychic-type+Golem/Rhydon+One last mon, likely fast Electric) it is one of the most interesting metas to play imo.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Just realized:

ONE person with a lot of fans managed to not only get an unviable mon up two tiers, but let a huge discussion happen on the Forums too.

Talk about hive mentality.

 

[Colonial]

I am completely aware that there are Pokémon that simply outclass others (like in RBY OU where Jolteon and Zapdos outclass Raichu), but it seems like if I wanna use something different in a tier I will get a lot of hate because I am not using a "top threat" or a "meta-defining" mon.
What if Ambipom is my favorite Pokémon and I wanna use it just because I like it? (Ambipom isn't really my favorite, but it's just an example)

See, you seem to be missing the point of this forum. It isn't some sort of hugbox where every decision is correct, it is specifically geared to helping people improve at competitive battling. To win more, to do better, to be the best there ever was. People telling you about more effective options isn't some sort of hate attack on your worth as a person, it's them trying to be helpful and fulfilling the intended purpose of this website. You can still use whatever favorite-mons you like, but if you post on a competitive forum expect to get competitive responses.

 

[p2]

aim wanna make diTTTo a thing ill pass teams hmu

 

[Ottis]

So People are overacting just a tiny bit to ambipom getting to UU if you want to use it in UU if you don't want to don't this is just a game after all while fun for you may be winning there for using Meta Mons or fun for you could be experimenting with mons that people say are garbage to see if they are good in the end its just a game not a debate

 

[Yung Dramps]

That's it.

This thread is no longer about the February 2018 tier update. I've wanted to do this for a while now, but it was Ambipom TTT that finally gave me the courage to speak up.

Ever since 2016, Silvally has been scorned and mocked for being a disappointment of a Pokemon. What was supposed to be an amazing Mini Arceus ended up rotting in PU, with only a select few forms of this Pokemon just barely managing to scrape by in the lower tiers.

But is this a fair assessment? Personally, I do not believe so. Don't get me wrong, Silvally has flaws. But I believe it isn't worthless. It can't be worthless. There's no way a Pokemon with 95 base stats across the board, 17 different types to choose from and a very respectable movepool can end up in such a poor standing viability-wise unless it's been criminally unexplored. I refuse to believe Silvally of all Pokemon is worse than Garbodor. Game Freak must've given this Pokemon something: Something that we simply have been too lazy and slothful to see.

In order to let this genetic superstar shine like it was meant to be, it won't just take one man. We, as a community, must show the world that Silvally is a graceful swan of a battler, not a mere junior destined for failure. So show us your sets! Share us your replays! Find a way to make this Pokemon work in UU or OU!!!

February 2018 will not be just another month for UU. It'll be the month that a hero rose from the ashes to combat the best of the best. It'll be the month that every battler and trainer appreciates the Aether Foundations' beautiful creation. It'll be the month of beasts of all kinds of different colors spamming Parting Shot. February is the month of Silvally!​

 

[Jordy]

That's it.

This thread is no longer about the February 2018 tier update. I've wanted to do this for a while now, but it was Ambipom TTT that finally gave me the courage to speak up.

Ever since 2016, Silvally has been scorned and mocked for being a disappointment of a Pokemon. What was supposed to be an amazing Mini Arceus ended up rotting in PU, with only a select few forms of this Pokemon just barely managing to scrape by in the lower tiers.

But is this a fair assessment? Personally, I do not believe so. Don't get me wrong, Silvally has flaws. But I believe it isn't worthless. It can't be worthless. There's no way a Pokemon with 95 base stats across the board, 17 different types to choose from and a very respectable movepool can end up in such a poor standing viability-wise unless it's been criminally unexplored. I refuse to believe Silvally of all Pokemon is worse than Garbodor. Game Freak must've given this Pokemon something: Something that we simply have been too lazy and slothful to see.

In order to let this genetic superstar shine like it was meant to be, it won't just take one man. We, as a community, must show the world that Silvally is a graceful swan of a battler, not a mere junior destined for failure. So show us your sets! Share us your replays! Find a way to make this Pokemon work in UU or OU!!!

February 2018 will not be just another month for UU. It'll be the month that a hero rose from the ashes to combat the best of the best. It'll be the month that every battler and trainer appreciates the Aether Foundations' beautiful creation. It'll be the month of beasts of all kinds of different colors spamming Parting Shot. 2018 is the month of Silvally!​

 

[earl]

That's it.

This thread is no longer about the February 2018 tier update. I've wanted to do this for a while now, but it was Ambipom TTT that finally gave me the courage to speak up.

Ever since 2016, Silvally has been scorned and mocked for being a disappointment of a Pokemon. What was supposed to be an amazing Mini Arceus ended up rotting in PU, with only a select few forms of this Pokemon just barely managing to scrape by in the lower tiers.

But is this a fair assessment? Personally, I do not believe so. Don't get me wrong, Silvally has flaws. But I believe it isn't worthless. It can't be worthless. There's no way a Pokemon with 95 base stats across the board, 17 different types to choose from and a very respectable movepool can end up in such a poor standing viability-wise unless it's been criminally unexplored. I refuse to believe Silvally of all Pokemon is worse than Garbodor. Game Freak must've given this Pokemon something: Something that we simply have been too lazy and slothful to see.

In order to let this genetic superstar shine like it was meant to be, it won't just take one man. We, as a community, must show the world that Silvally is a graceful swan of a battler, not a mere junior destined for failure. So show us your sets! Share us your replays! Find a way to make this Pokemon work in UU or OU!!!

February 2018 will not be just another month for UU. It'll be the month that a hero rose from the ashes to combat the best of the best. It'll be the month that every battler and trainer appreciates the Aether Foundations' beautiful creation. It'll be the month of beasts of all kinds of different colors spamming Parting Shot. 2018 is the month of Silvally!​

its bad because it ain't got no recovery and doesn't hit hard enough because of the memories, so it fails being defensive or offensive

 

[some idiot]

The badge is literally right under my name, hold your mouse cursor over it. Anyway, you are in no position to talk shit about my posts (or indeed anyone else's ever) if your posts in this thread are typical for you.

pelase excuse luna, she has brain problems and i can confirm this

 

[Venoxio]

2018 is the month of Silvally!

 

[brodudeguy1]

If mamoswine rises to ou, then this bandwagon meming will be a problem. Mamoswine is a solid wallbreaker with it's own uniquie coverage that you find in any other pokemon in uu. The best way to solve this problem before it gets out of hand is to base tiering off of usage that is 1500 and above on the ladder. Most of pokeaim's fans and bandwagon low ladder players, and weeding them out would significantly reduce pokeaim's imfluence on tiers.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Reasons why Silvally isn't that good:
-Lacks Recover
-Base stats of 95 are not too shabby, but not too high either.
-Having to sacrifice the item slot in order to change type is disappointing. It can't substitute a memory with a ZCrystal either, like Arceus.
-Fully defensive sets face heavy competition from its prevo Type:Null, who only has a lower speed stat, but defensive mons barely need that anyway.
-Lacks Recover

Also Garbodor really isn't that bad. Genwunners have to shut up as it's much better than their gods Charizard, Articuno and Raichu. (Not calling you a genwunner, mind that)

 

[PA]

Must..run..from..ambipom

 

[GustavoR]

See, you seem to be missing the point of this forum. It isn't some sort of hugbox where every decision is correct, it is specifically geared to helping people improve at competitive battling. To win more, to do better, to be the best there ever was. People telling you about more effective options isn't some sort of hate attack on your worth as a person, it's them trying to be helpful and fulfilling the intended purpose of this website. You can still use whatever favorite-mons you like, but if you post on a competitive forum expect to get competitive responses.

Well a lot of people have been trashtalking the ones who use the Pokémon they want. And I don't really think that fallacies or "THIS IS BETTER THAN THIS" and give no arguments aren't competitive answers if you ask me. This specific thread is more of a trashtalking gallery directed by salty people that straight up hate Ambipom rather than giving arguments of why it doesn't have a niche in UU. And I think that a solid argument that indeed proofs that Ambi has a niche in UU is Joey's AmbipomTTT where he used different sets and teams with it.

 

[Ottis]

Its to bad Arcues with a good design(Silvally) isn't to great but unless it can get recovery or can replace a memory with a Crystal it won't be great and even then 95 is mediocre not the best thing ever...but atleast it has a good design style points :)

 

[Ryolain]

yeah, low ladder is a lot more fun suprisingly, with more fun and innovative sets than high ladder. You get to see lower tier mons much more and see that they might actually put in work and have a nice niche, but go undiscovered alot because the meta focuses on only 15 mons when there are over 800 to try, while you cant use all of them because they may be banned or something, innovation is key in this game imo. Showdown needs to make changes soon imo.

This doesn’t make sense, lower ladder mons putting in work against other bad low ladder teams doesn’t prove anything about their viability in the tier at large.

Well sometimes the point of only promoting competitive battles end up turning everything into a kinda boring meta where only a few Pokémon see usage (like OU nowadays). I am completely aware that there are Pokémon that simply outclass others (like in RBY OU where Jolteon and Zapdos outclass Raichu), but it seems like if I wanna use something different in a tier I will get a lot of hate because I am not using a "top threat" or a "meta-defining" mon.
What if Ambipom is my favorite Pokémon and I wanna use it just because I like it? (Ambipom isn't really my favorite, but it's just an example)



And have I said that Ambipom is the best in UU or something?
My point was to say that Ambipom is not a terrible Pokémon.
It's not the best or close to being the best, but it's not straight up garbage.

There’s currently 50 Pokémon in OU, so saying there’s only “a few” is a little hyperbolic. But if the idea of competitive battling is to judge true skill, stabilization of the meta is good - it means there’s a more consistent set of threats for you to face and therefore to be able to prepare for, reducing how matchup-based the game is.

If you get bored seeing the same stuff all the time and you don’t care about your ladder score or winning tours or whatever, there’s nothing stopping you from using whatever Pokémon you want. But the site is meant for competitive play and as such, tiering is going to aim for stability so that the people who find competition fun can have their fun, rather than arbitrarily mixing up the tiers every now and then for the benefit of people who find seeing different mons fun.

 

[earl]

Well a lot of people have been trashtalking the ones who use the Pokémon they want. And I don't really think that fallacies or "THIS IS BETTER THAN THIS" and give no arguments aren't competitive answers if you ask me. This specific thread is more of a trashtalking gallery directed by salty people that straight up hate Ambipom rather than giving arguments of why it doesn't have a niche in UU. And I think that a solid argument that indeed proofs that Ambi has a niche in UU is Joey's AmbipomTTT where he used different sets and teams with it.

sorry but I don't think anyone on the pro-ambipom side has ever said what its niche actually is, they've just been saying "it has a niche". Could you clarify what its niche is please