Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 11/16 on post #293)

kommoo.gif

Kommo-o UR -> Tier 4

This mon is really, really overwhelming on games that don't involve a tapu fini since most of the teams that don't have it don't prepare for it. Also, most of the times you're going to pair it with gengar/gothitelle and koko/bulu or some other mons to hard counter tapu fini so you have ways to play around it and mitigate the bad matchup. With due respect to the inevitable differences, it can be compared to snorlax because of how carefully you have to keep a good positioning, specially when it's paired with a trapper.
I know some more players have been trying it out for good results and it has performed pretty well on some ssnl games (1 2 3) so I think it should, at least, be on the VR.
 
Last edited:
Milotic 4 -> 3

I built a team around milotic with the release of incineroar and I've been very impressed. A grassy seed set in particular is very threatening as bulu and milotic cover each other really well and intimidate is everywhere right now.
 
aegislash.gif
Aegislash
TIER 2 --> 1

Greetings to all, I think that Aegi should be Level 1 since it is a very versatile moon (not like Landorus) but if it gives a good coverage after the departure of Marsh, this makes aegi with its orb Move z Life is balanced with any team that supports both defense and attack, as we all know what aegi can contribute I dare to say that this pokemon is one of the best carriers of the Move z, which personally gives me a lot of confidence and with the option of Wide Guard help with the movements of area like Thousand Arrow protengiendo to zapdos (it is an example), without more nothing to say I say goodbye, Greetings!
 
zikam said:
aegislash.gif
Aegislash
TIER 2 --> 1

Greetings to all, I think that Aegi should be Level 1 since it is a very versatile moon (not like Landorus) but if it gives a good coverage after the departure of Marsh, this makes aegi with its orb Move z Life is balanced with any team that supports both defense and attack, as we all know what aegi can contribute I dare to say that this pokemon is one of the best carriers of the Move z, which personally gives me a lot of confidence and with the option of Wide Guard help with the movements of area like Thousand Arrow protengiendo to zapdos (it is an example), without more nothing to say I say goodbye, Greetings!
Click to expand...

Strongly disagree. While it's true that Ghost STAB has gotten better since the Marshadow ban, Aegislash just gained a very very splashable check that's used in tons of teams lately in Incineroar, which can switch into either of its STABs with ease and force it to King's Shield or switch out. It's by all means a strong pokémon but this just feels like a weird time to consider bumping it up, given that the metagame literally just started shifting against it in a very meaningful way.
 
Tornadus UR->5

Tornadus is a really threatening sweeper, as edu has shown in spl. with the introduction of a new highly viable intimidate user, the defiant sweeper set is a solid meta call, as a lot of people are relying on intimidate to deal with physical sweepers. Torn has trouble with stuff that resists its main stab, acrobatics, which is why i think this mon is good for tier five, maybe four but that's stretching it a bit, imo. If kawaii user EmbCPT could weigh in on this, I would swoon in my pantaloons
 
Nomming Araquanid to Tier 3 and Porygon2 from Tier 5>3

First of, I would like to state how I've come to these conclusions. I've currently peaked 1807 with 87.2% gxe on the DOU ladder, and I'm still climbing. Both of these above pokemon are in my team, and they perform excellently. This isn't because I use a niche team that caters to their needs, but it's because in my opinion they are heavily underrated pokemon that can peform a variety of roles.

Their matchup against some common tier 1-2 pokemon is at times lacking, which is my justification for tier 3. They however don't belong in tier 4, let alone tier 5, as they are better than the following description of tier 4: "Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below "

Here's why:

Araquanid:
This spider isn't on the rankings at all, which is very suprising to me. This spider has seen huge success in various other Doubles formats, such as Battelspot Doubles and both the VGC 17 and 18 scene. Both of these formats has slight differences, but they also have many similarities. This spider has a wide movepool that allows it excel as an attacker on semi-TR teams. As well as that, it has very respectable bulk and access to a variety of support moves.

Finding an amazing ability in water bubble spidey hits just about everything that is neutral to water for huge damage. See the following:

-1 252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 300-352 (94 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 444-528 (112.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Araquanid gets to wall all Metagross without Thunder Punch (which is a suboptimal move anyway as Stomping Tantrum hits a larger portion of tier 1-2), walls Landorus effectively, and does the same to Incineroar. These are just three common threats, and I could list more. Slap on a z-move and things get even scarier.

252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-3 252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You get the picture. To follow up it then also carries bulk allowing it to take vital hits where needed, considering speed investment isn't needed:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid in Electric Terrain: 282-332 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Rock Slide vs. 224 HP / 100 Def Araquanid: 140-166 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The list goes on., and the bulk increases with berries etc. Now this is already fair reason to have him in a tier at least, but there's more of course. So far he's already capable of being a reliable switch-in and check to two of the tiers top-threats, alongside hitting everything else for big damage. He get's great support moves on top of this too! Toxic, Wide Guard, Sticky Web, Lunge and Icy Wind can all be viably used depending on a teams needs. Toxic allows you to beat the annoying Volcanion and Gastrodon that would otherwise wall you, and the others aid the rest of the team. This spider is not a one-trick pony, and caters to a variety of needs without all too much required team support. The only things you need to cover are grass types and electrics, but the same could be said for any high-tier water type.

Onwards to Porygon2.

Porygon2:
Why is this Duck in tier 5? It is perhaps one of the bulkiest offensive Trick Room setters in the meta-game and it isn't getting the recognition it deserves. I can't even add many calcs as this duck survives just about everything and it then gets reliable recovery in the form of recover as well! Even if you play badly and let your eviolite get knocked off this duck will still be taking hits most of the meta-game wouldn't be. It's a good switch-in to almost everything, can setup Trick Room, and has some of the best type coverage in the game whilst having a great typing in Normal. This duck has seen huge success in Battlespot Doubles, VGC 17, and it's even considered a better alternative at times to Cresselia in the current VGC 18 scene. I know this, I topped the ladder in 18 last month with a variant of the team I use for DOU (I literally changed one move and recalculated sets). Now to show off it's offensive power, and don't forget it frequently gets a boost from Download:

16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian: 360-428 (112.8 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 360-428 (94.4 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 472-556 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 316-372 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 16+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 176-208 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 16+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 242-286 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This duck is scary if it gets the boost, and even without it's threatening large chip damage whilst also boasting huge sustainability, speed control, and support options. Shadow Ball variants can be run. Foul Play can be run. Icy Wind may be a better option. Or perhaps even Toxic. This thing was considered the most splashable mon in VGC 17, and in DOU it can fit onto almost any Semi-TR team ranging from offensive to defensive. It definitely doesn't belong in Tier 5.
 
I think you misunderstand viability ranks and trying to equate rank 4 and 5 to "D rank" or "E rank" which carries negative overtones. The thing is as you said, Araquanid only really fits on semiroom / full room. And using semiroom Araquanid often means you're edging out more generally powerful Pokemon like Volcanion or Tapu Fini that heavily influence the metagame around them. Pokemon tier placement opinion in higher tier Pokemon like Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Incineroar, etc. tend to be quite consistent across playerbase for the most part. But Pokemon in tier 5 and borderline tend to range from "this should be tier 3" to "this is garbage" depending on who you're talking to. And this Araquanid's lack of generalizability, in addition to poorer matchups that it cannot do much about like Volcanion and Kyurem-B in addition to all its old foes in Mega Mence, Amoonguss, Tapu Fini, Kartana, etc. hurts its place in the viability ranks. It's only natural that a Water type can beat Landorus and Incineroar, and boosted Ice type moves can OHKO x4 weak Pokemon - the problem is always about its poorer matchups.

Most of the Pokemon in rank 5 are really strong with proper team support. Note that Pokemon like Cresselia, Togekiss, Volcarona, etc. are in rank 5. Mega Manectric and Kartana are rank 4. Pokemon like Mimikyu and Suicune are unranked. It's obvious that none of these Pokemon are "near unviable" nor should be underestimated. VR numbers are merely relative, and maybe a few Pokes should drop from 3->4 and 2->3 but aside from the ones that should be nommed for drop soon, I think most tier 3 Pokes either are situational yet strong enough to birth an entire teamstyle revolving around them (like Kingdra, Stakataka, etc.) or just absurdly strong, fairly splashable Pokemon that heavily influence the Metagame around them (Gothitelle, Tyranitar, Tapu Bulu, etc.) I just don't think Araquanid has that kind of influence in the metagame and Araquanid to 5 and P2 to 4 would be a much more reasonable nom. Because personally speaking I think "below average Pokemon" don't even make the VR here for the most part and anything that makes the VR the first place is really strong.

Maybe the rank descriptions deserve a revamp, but eh.

celesteela 2->3
tapu lele 2->3
hoopa-u 2->3
Ferrothorn 3->4
Manectric 4->3
 
Last edited:
AbsurdityNL said:
Nomming Araquanid to Tier 3 and Porygon2 from Tier 5>3

Araquanid gets to wall all Metagross without Thunder Punch (which is a suboptimal move anyway as Stomping Tantrum hits a larger portion of tier 1-2), walls Landorus effectively, and does the same to Incineroar. These are just three common threats, and I could list more. Slap on a z-move and things get even scarier.
Click to expand...

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Araquanid in Psychic Terrain: 297-351 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I agree that P2 should rise though
 
SMB said:
kommoo.gif

Kommo-o UR -> Tier 4

This mon is really, really overwhelming on games that don't involve a tapu fini since most of the teams that don't have it don't prepare for it. Also, most of the times you're going to pair it with gengar/gothitelle and koko/bulu or some other mons to hard counter tapu fini so you have ways to play around it and mitigate the bad matchup. With due respect to the inevitable differences, it can be compared to snorlax because of how carefully you have to keep a good positioning, specially when it's paired with a trapper.
I know some more players have been trying it out for good results and it has performed pretty well on some ssnl games (1 2 3) so I think it should, at least, be on the VR.
Click to expand...
I'd also like to point out that poison jab is a pretty common coverage move and if it gets the boost then fini is.... kinna fucked
 
Jrenner said:
I'd also like to point out that poison jab is a pretty common coverage move and if it gets the boost then fini is.... kinna fucked
Click to expand...
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Tapu Fini: 170-200 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
100 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 280-336 (95.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
max invested Kommo-o does zero and gets ohko'd back 81% of the time. Tapu Fini is still definitely a counter.
 
gengar-mega.gif


Mega Gengar Tier 2 -> Tier 1

Honestly, this is the best mega right now, I'm not going to discover anything new about mega gengar but the offensive pressure and the support it gives with shadow tag is so, so valuable. It fits on so many playstyles and if you play it correctly it's always going to eliminate or help to eliminate at least 1 or 2 mons threatening your team. I guess snorlax and marshadow popularity hurted its viability but gengar has already been tier 1 before and I think now is the time to return there.

Kommo-o UR -> Tier 3

Same reasons as my post about kommo-o above, it's way better than what I initially thought and I think tier 3 description fits better for it.
 
Aegislash 2 -> 3

recent meta trends have made aegislash a really poor pick. specifically, I'm referring to the introduction of intimidate incineroar, and the increase in usage of zygarde and manectric. It also now has to be in shield form to check metagross, as every metagross has been running stomping tantrum since USUM

PS: has anyone used this in dpl or the last few rounds of ssnls?
 
Last edited:
VR Votes
The Clanger UR ->4 or 3
Demantoid: abstain. Haven’t used it enough to form an opinion on it but I do think it should be ranked.

Kaori: walling the team player is always a desirable quality and the clangy boy has a lot going for him elsewhere too, would say 3

MajorBowman: I’d say 4 or even 5 for now, not entirely sure why the sudden surge in usage occurred and I’m not entirely convinced it’s that great

marilli: yeah this is pretty good 3 it is

Memoric: 3 ayye its the truth

Miltankmilk: 3, the clanger is very scary to basically any team lacking fini (which has become much more common). It has 3 very useful abilities and with team support from broken shadow tag it becomes very easy to set up.

Talkingtree: 4 for now, haven’t used it enough or seen it used enough to be able to call it 3. EDIT: my fellow rankers took a while, so now I have seen it used enough. However, its frailty and reliance on team support make it still 4 for now imo.
Milotic 4->3
Demantoid: no, I used this some and I still think it’s pretty mediocre due to how passive it is. Also not an elite water.

Kaori: yes, can run multiple sets and is a big threat to the team player cat

MajorBowman: No 4 is fine, and if I see another coil milotic i’m performing a hostile takeover of VR and deleting milotic forever

Marilli: abstain

Memoric: it’s a good water and, relatively, id say it’s more-or-less at the level of those in 3 for now so yeah. Intim usage :eyes:

Miltankmilk: yes, milotic is in a very good place right now as team player cat dominates usage. No snorlax is also helpful for milo as it was basically set up fodder before.

Talkingtree: no, I would’ve argued this was towards the bottom of 4 before and this shift has only moved it to the top of 4. Still struggles with passivity and reliance on consistent use of Recover to avoid being placed in range of a strong attack
Aegislash 2->1
Demantoid: no

Kaori:no, good but not tier 1 good

MajorBowman: no, 2 is a perfect place for aegislash. Incineroar made its life a little bit worse and some of the stuff it checks well isn’t as popular anymore (see: salamence)

marilli: still good but it’s pretty worse now, idk why t1.

Memoric: :psyduck:

Miltankmilk: no, aegislash is good but it isnt tier 1. Nothing in the meta has changed to improve aegis’ position in the meta, if anything its worse now with the departure of lax.

Talkingtree: no, lax left and incin got better. Before those changes, I might have been on board, but right now I can’t agree with this in 1.
Tornadus UR->5
Demantoid: yes, only decent physical tailwinder right now and defiant is cool.

Kaori: i suppose

MajorBowman: yeah sure, seed acro + defiant is pretty cool and it’s a decent tailwind setter

Marilli: i suppose

Memoric: abstain

Miltankmilk: sure, edu has wielded this pokemon enough for me to respect it.

Talkingtree: yes. But I’d say 5 could use some cleanup.
Thundurus UR ->5
Demantoid: ur, I’d like this to see more usage before being ranked.

Kaori: yes

MajorBowman: stay UR, would need to see this more in action before voting to rank it

marilli: i suppose yes

Memoric: this mon is recurring enough for me to maybe say ehh ok so ya i guess

Miltankmilk: abstain? I honestly haven’t seen it enough and don’t like to vote just theorymonning.

Talkingtree: abstain. I’ve seen this used once in a tour, and it lost that game. Definitely not enough to say it should get a place on the VR.
Araquanid UR-> 3???????
Demantoid: Stay UR, This could potentially deserve 5 but it sees no tour usage and 5 is already pretty fat.

Kaori: the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, much like araquanid wants to be but im not rly feelin this one. Maybe a 5 if it saw a rise in usage

MajorBowman: huh? I think i’d be alright with 5 but 3 is way too high for something that’s been UR for a while

Marilli: uh yeah at best 5 but isnt justified with the current usage, fine with ur

Memoric: whose mans nommed this? Can someone claim him already?

Miltankmilk: absolutely not, this pokemon is not good.

Talkingtree: abstain. 5 seems somewhat reasonable in response to some recent meta trends (walling Zygarde and Incineroar is pretty nice), but anything higher than that would be ridiculous. As soon as anyone uses this mon though I’m campaigning to rank water spider.
Porygon2 5->3
Demantoid: no, I think it could be 4 but it doesn’t see enough usage to be above 5 right now

Kaori: id probably support a 4 on the grounds that fat normals are broken but 3 is excessive at this point in time

MajorBowman: i’d be fine with 4, reliable TR setter with solid type coverage and potentially threatening special attack with download. Also agree with kaori, bulky normals are stupid

marilli: 4 might be ok

Memoric: no way it’s 3 lol. Echoing kaori, this could be a 4

Miltankmilk: no its fine in 5 to me. Its very passive, vulnerable to knock/toxic/generally playing well and as a passive TR setter it doesn’t enable its teammates particularly well.

Talkingtree: no to 3, abstain to 4.
Mega Gengar 2->1
Demantoid: yes, shadow tag is :sogood: It’s super hard to play around especially with volturn giving it free switchins

Kaori: yes, best mega by a large margin imo

MajorBowman: meh, yeah sure. If we could just vote shadow tag to 1 and leave the rest of mega gengar in 2 i’d do that lol

marilli: this mons op pls nerf

Memoric: si, i dont think much needs to be said about this 1

Miltankmilk: Yes, gengar is amazing in the current meta (shadow tag is super dumb) with great matchups vs all tapus, metagross, lando-t. It picks its own checks with its 3rd moveslot, making it super versatile. It hits hard as hell, its fast as hell, probably the best pokemon in the meta rn.

Talkingtree: 1, make MGengar’s first VR movement of the generation a well-deserved rise to the top.
Shifts
Kommo-o UR->3
Tornadus UR->5
Thundurus UR->5
Mega Gengar 2->1
 
Last edited:
Bulu 3 -> 2
Bulu's one of the strongest Tapus overall, I think. It's one of the few physical attackers in the meta that can break through fat mons even in the face of an Intimidate drop. It's also pretty much the only true Ground resist in this meta, given that Zygarde can hit Flying-types. Wallbreaker + rain check + ground resist is great role compression, and I think if you look at any recent tour stats you'll see it performs at least as well as any other Tapu.

Suicune UR -> 3
Inner Focus on a Water-type buys you a lot of momentum in the Incineroar meta. Suicune is inherently bulkier than Tapu Fini and is a good "alternative" Tailwind setter when the obvious picks like Zapdos feel too awkward. Roar is also a legitimate move to run on this set, as Inner Focus + Roar is pretty much the best anti-TR and anti-setup tech in the meta. Also, it has nice access to Snarl.

Landorus-T 1 -> 2
Still a great mon, but it doesn't monopolize the "viable Intimidate user" role like it used to.

e: miltankmilk - Today at 1:03 PM can you expand on lando->2, its a pretty huge shift

While it still offers invaluable role compression, it faces increasingly stiff competition from Incineroar + Zygarde cores. It also seldom has a clean window to use its main STAB attack, Earthquake, outside of running Groundium Z. With Bulu becoming increasingly relevant, both as a threat and as a desirable ally, it's also becoming harder to justify running Lando over other alternatives. Its x4 Ice weakness hurts it when the two Tier 1 megas, Mega Metagross and Mega Gengar, can outpace it and hit it with Ice Punch / HP Ice respectively. In general too, its speed tier is a bit middling for what it wants to be able to hit (barring scarf sets, but those are pretty rare now).

This isn't to disrespect Lando-T at all - it's still a really good mon and probably one of the most diverse in terms of the different sets it can run. It's just not something you toss on every team without consequence, like you used to.
 
Last edited:
Nominating suicune for tier 5. I think it has a lot of potential on bulkier teams as a tailwind setter, it has crazy good bulk and a solid defensive typing, access to some nice moves such as roar, snarl, tailwind, ice beam. It can put a lot of pressure on opposing mega mence, zygarde, and lando t with ice beam, and really make it hard for aegislash and mega gengar to get in damage by using snarl, while getting in some pretty heavy chip damage. It's also pretty nice to use roar in order to push out opposing set ups, or in order to stop TR from getting set up (although it really shouldn't be able a teams only method of countering TR). I don't think it should be higher than tier 5 tho due to the fact that it's offensive stats are only about average (90 spatk) and zapdos, which is extreamly common as a TW setter, can take an ice beam from suicune without any trouble. It works pretty well with mega metagross, celesteela, tapu lele, bulu, char-Y, as well as pretty much any other viable mega. It can use a lot of items very well, such as berry, and psychic/grassy seeds.

Deo-A T2->Tier 3 I haven't seen this thing used well in quite a while, it cant effectively run LO set, and with fake out and incineroar being so common its not hard to take it out... its still absurdly powerful with psychic terrain boosted psycho boost, but incineroar still really hurt its viability.
 
Last edited:
Incineroar -> 1

A simple assault vest set with fake out/flare blitz/knock off/u turn is incredibly reliable and puts in work basically every match. It has awesome bulk, awesome utility, an awesome ability to pivot, and enough power that it cannot be ignored on the field. It is a great slow mode for faster teams to help against trick room. Its a psyspam check that doesnt get shredded by common coverage moves. You really cant go wrong using incineroar, and as such it deserves tier 1.
 
Big_Danny_Mason said:
Incineroar -> 1

A simple assault vest set with fake out/flare blitz/knock off/u turn is incredibly reliable and puts in work basically every match. It has awesome bulk, awesome utility, an awesome ability to pivot, and enough power that it cannot be ignored on the field. It is a great slow mode for faster teams to help against trick room. Its a psyspam check that doesnt get shredded by common coverage moves. You really cant go wrong using incineroar, and as such it deserves tier 1.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more. it's probably the best intimidate user right now, with pretty nice offensive stats, offensive typing, and 6 resistances and an immunity with great defensive stats, it's prolly one of the best mons in the tier rn, and it has the ability to take out a lot of big threats in the tier, such as mega metagross, m-gar, aegislash, lele, koko, ferro, and t-tar (if you Carry low kick).
 
Araquanid -> 4

I've been itching to make this nom for a while but had no replays to show for it. However, Hashtag and SMB both showed it off well in this week's DPL matches.

Sticky Webs is incredibly powerful if you can pull it off. Araquanid also just has good typing for the current meta. It's a good answer to Incineroar + Zygarde cores, serves as a "true" ground resist that takes NVE damage from Thousand Arrows, and also works pretty well as a rain check. It does need to be built around a bit, so that you can keep Electric-types etc at bay, but it puts in a lot of work on the right team.
 
That reminds me I've been wanting to nom

Mega Charizard Y -> Tier 3
I have a whole number of replays to show for it but yeah this mon is a lot better than people give it credit for. It hits everything so hard with heat wave that its super tough to switch into. You do need a fair bit of support, namely defog, intimidate and speed control. But this is one of the better megas right now imo.
 
Last edited:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top