Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 11/16 on post #293)

Jrenner said:
Tapu fini 1->2

Same reason as before but I think I should go into more detail.
Mega gengar, which is extreamly common, can 2HKO it with sludge bomb. Bulu is gaining a lot of popularity and can completely demolish fini, and gain health doing so by using horn leech) Mega metagross can 3HKO it with zen headbutt/iron head, and 2HKO it with thunder punch (if cairied). Zapdos with elec-Z is becoming much more common and it can OHKO fini without a ton of investment. Mega manetric can hit it hard with volt switch, or use snarl in order to lower its already somewhat mediocre special attack. It's 95 base special attack also does give it a hard time taking things out, it can (sometimes) 3HKO AV incineroar with no special def investment with muddy water (If muddy water hits). It will also be 2KOed by KyuBs fusion bolt (although kyub can't switch into fini).
Koko can also OHKO it with tbolt holding orb, and 2HKO it without one.
It also has trouble with a lot of less used mons like kartana, rotom-W, ferro, gene with thunderbolt/energy ball).
Sorry this is a bit of a ramble but hopefully it still gets across my thoughts
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I can also list out multiple common counters to any tier 1 mons, it doesn't make them less powerful.

Out of all the popular threats you mentioned, only Tapu Bulu can consistently OHKO it with all of its most used sets (and most of Fini's supports OHKO Bulu without much of a problem), despite all of them filling the roll of a Fini check. Another extremely important factor is that not a single one of those can actually switch into Fini without taking too much damage and that's if we don't even take into account the possibility of a Calm Mind or Specs boost.

Regarding some of your points, Koko needs terrain to OHKO fini with LO Tbolt and both Rotom-W and Gene aren't much of a problem at all, since they don't pose enough offense to actually break Fini, especially after a Calm Mind boost.
Also, if anything, Gengar and Bulu's rise only did Fini a favor, but this is a far more in-depth analysis of some of the matches we've seen lately. Do some quick research on how the matchup has been approached by some MetaFini users and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Overall, Tapu Fini is a top tier threat that everyone struggles properly checking and that can easily capitalize on bad teambuilding, while also pressuring the very threats meant to check it that are present on good teams. This is the second time we vote on Fini moving to tier 2 in little over a month and I hope it's the last one in a while.
 
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Here's a new round of VR shifts, including the initial ranking of Zeraora!

Zeraora: Placement Vote
Demantoid: 5, It’s not usually worth it but it can fit on some teams I guess.

EmbCPT: abstain. I don’t have enough experience with it to have a proper opinion on the matter.

Kaori: imma say 5 for now but i fully expect it to drop to UR once hype wears off

MajorBowman: Definitely 5 to start. Something that fast with a decent support movepool deserves to be ranked imo, but I don’t really expect it to climb very high.

Marilli: Abstain too.

Memoric: 5, i think this is a good firm spot for it tbh. I personally think it has a decent niche as a supportive mon with speed that can outpace Mega Gengar, helping with generally checking stuff and position. However, beyond that, it’s quite lackluster.

Talkingtree: 5, I think there could be more viable sets that haven’t been discovered yet but for now it only provides positioning support. That positioning support is quite strong, with fast Fake Out, Volt Switch, and Snarl, but due to it being one-dimensional, not that bulky, and fairly weak, I can’t be confident placing it any higher.
Landorus-I: UR -> 5, 4
Demantoid: 5. Good offensively but offers very little defensively to the team. Also suffers from 4 mss having to choose between HP Ice, Sludge Bomb, and Rock Slide.

EmbCPT: 5. I feel like its offensive capabilities are amazing, but both Zygarde and Landorus-T being tier 1 with better defenses makes it suffer from the fact that those 2 are already being heavily prepared against, an issue that becomes evident once you look at how common Ice Punch M-Metagross and HP Ice/Icy Wind M-Gengar are, 2 tier 1 Pokémon that that outspeed and KO Landorus-I. I feel like it just loses to Lando and Zyg checks harder than they do, so 4 would be too high.

Kaori: 5, high risk high reward but i dont think the reward skews highly enough to be in 4

MajorBowman: Abstain. I’ve really only seen it used in the talkingtree vs AuraRayquaza set and it definitely put in work there, but I don’t think I have a strong enough opinion of it yet to vote either way.

Marilli: 5. Offensive capabilities exist and is good, but otoh it’s got a lot of things going against it. It means you can’t use lando-t (though it’s obviously a lesser concern thanks to incineroar - and probably the reason why this thing got nommed the first place), but more importantly it’s quite slow for an offensive poke and gets targetted by all the same ice type moves that people use in order to check Lando-T and Zygarde.

Memoric: 5, I think it’s a fine strong attacker but most teams are prepared for it by virtue of preparing for its more common Therian forme. Doesn’t seem to have much of a niche other than just a standard hard hitter.

Talkingtree: 4, though I understand why I might be the only one who sees it there. It seems fairly well prepped for already due to Lando-T and Zyg being everywhere, but in practice the solid checks like Kyurem-B, Tapu Fini, and opposing Lando-T are much easier to handle when you outspeed and 2HKO them. That offensive pressure, the flexibility for what your team needs to handle between Rock Slide or Sludge Bomb (HP Ice should be mandatory), and most importantly the Speed are so threatening to tons of teams, especially with reliable speed control by its side.
VR Shifts

Zeraora: UR -> 5
Landorus-I: UR -> 5

The next round of VR shifts will be on the 5th of August! For transparency, I did not include the Tapu Fini nom because we literally just voted on that the round before the last one and it was also from the same person.

RAlexa21th said:
I have only encountered Zeraora twice and both times it got curbstomped so hard I didn't even know what it was supposed to do.
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A late reply here, but Zeraora usually has a bulk-oriented support set with Fake Out and Snarl from what I've seen, the item usually Assault Vest. It's not really hitting hard outside of Plasma Fists; handling it with Intimidate would likely work well, as well as simply using resists like Tapu Bulu and Amoonguss. Generally speaking, using Tailwind or Trick Room to take away its speed advantage would also work wonders!
 
Zeraora: 5 -> 4

After using this thing a bit I'm honestly really impressed. Its massive speed gives it a pretty important niche in a few different ways. Fastest Fake Out in the tier is nothing to scoff at, and outspeeding both Mega Gengar and Mega Manectric combined with Nice Access to Snarl makes it pretty valuable as a support teammate. Its damage output with Plasma Fists/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/whatever is decent for a support pokemon too, and it can easily pivot out with a quick Volt Switch if it ever finds itself in a sticky situation. I've only used AV so far, but I think bulky berry and offensive sets can both find a place in the metagame as well.

Suicune: 4 -> 3

I've low key been obsessed with Suicune recently. It's one of the most reliable Tailwinds in the tier thanks to its disgusting bulk, and Inner Focus Roar is incredible for stopping hard setup or trick room. Once Tailwind is up it can do some ok damage with Ice Beam or Scald, but Snarl gives it even more of a support role and its moveset is flexible enough to throw on some random tech moves like Toxic.

Mega Diancie: 4 -> 3

Mega Diancie has also been creeping up my list of Pokemon I like using. Diamond Storm hurts like hell and (mostly) accurate Rock moves are always nice. Moonblast usually does way more damage than I expect as well, while Earth Power rounds out Diancie's coverage pretty nicely. It also has some pretty positive matchups against some higher tier Pokemon (Incineroar, Zapdos, Kyurem, non-grass move Amoonguss). I don't see Diancie ever rising past 3, but I think 3 is a pretty good place for it considering its ability to clean up games just by spamming Diamond Storm.

Celesteela: 3 -> 4

Does anyone even use Celesteela anymore? I don't think it's necessarily gotten worst but it has a hard time keeping up with the increasingly offensive metagame, in my opinion. It needs to stay healthy in order to function properly but it can't really do so when most things can chunk it for 30-40% if not more. Good check to a few common Pokemon but I don't think it's much more than that anymore.

Kommo-o: 3 -> 4

I think people are finally starting to realize that the clanger has always been pretty overrated. I've noticed its usage dropping pretty consistently since DPL, deservedly so. Kommo-o was always a fad to me, and not one that I ever really understood. Having your Z move taken up just to boost a lackluster Pokemon to a range that's still less potent than a lot of unboosted attackers seems Very Much Not Worth Using to me, and immediately losing to any fairy type (which are on literally every team) is a hard no from me.

Heatran: 5 -> UR

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE LIKE THIS THING IT'S SO BAD
 
MajorBowman said:
Zeraora: 5 -> 4

After using this thing a bit I'm honestly really impressed. Its massive speed gives it a pretty important niche in a few different ways. Fastest Fake Out in the tier is nothing to scoff at, and outspeeding both Mega Gengar and Mega Manectric combined with Nice Access to Snarl makes it pretty valuable as a support teammate. Its damage output with Plasma Fists/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/whatever is decent for a support pokemon too, and it can easily pivot out with a quick Volt Switch if it ever finds itself in a sticky situation. I've only used AV so far, but I think bulky berry and offensive sets can both find a place in the metagame as well.

Suicune: 4 -> 3

I've low key been obsessed with Suicune recently. It's one of the most reliable Tailwinds in the tier thanks to its disgusting bulk, and Inner Focus Roar is incredible for stopping hard setup or trick room. Once Tailwind is up it can do some ok damage with Ice Beam or Scald, but Snarl gives it even more of a support role and its moveset is flexible enough to throw on some random tech moves like Toxic.

Mega Diancie: 4 -> 3

Mega Diancie has also been creeping up my list of Pokemon I like using. Diamond Storm hurts like hell and (mostly) accurate Rock moves are always nice. Moonblast usually does way more damage than I expect as well, while Earth Power rounds out Diancie's coverage pretty nicely. It also has some pretty positive matchups against some higher tier Pokemon (Incineroar, Zapdos, Kyurem, non-grass move Amoonguss). I don't see Diancie ever rising past 3, but I think 3 is a pretty good place for it considering its ability to clean up games just by spamming Diamond Storm.

Celesteela: 3 -> 4

Does anyone even use Celesteela anymore? I don't think it's necessarily gotten worst but it has a hard time keeping up with the increasingly offensive metagame, in my opinion. It needs to stay healthy in order to function properly but it can't really do so when most things can chunk it for 30-40% if not more. Good check to a few common Pokemon but I don't think it's much more than that anymore.

Kommo-o: 3 -> 4

I think people are finally starting to realize that the clanger has always been pretty overrated. I've noticed its usage dropping pretty consistently since DPL, deservedly so. Kommo-o was always a fad to me, and not one that I ever really understood. Having your Z move taken up just to boost a lackluster Pokemon to a range that's still less potent than a lot of unboosted attackers seems Very Much Not Worth Using to me, and immediately losing to any fairy type (which are on literally every team) is a hard no from me.

Heatran: 5 -> UR

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE LIKE THIS THING IT'S SO BAD
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I was going to make 3 of those noms myself but was waiting for more replays to show it. Just a couple more thoughts:
Zera isn't as good as it seemed to me at first, but defiantly worthy of 4 due to its nice utility or offensive sets, plasma fists op, and it's ability to hit hard against some common threats such as fini.
Suicune is really good for its utility IMO with great moves such as tailwind, snarl, roar, scald, icy wind, and more rarely toxic.
Don't use heatran use any other somewhat viable fire type pls... it's useless...
 
chansey.gif


Chansey: UR -> Tier 5

So yeah chansey is not a meme anymore; it's one of the best support mons on the tier while also being a huge win condition. Main drawbacks are that most of the times it's going to be a set up fodder, knock off being as common as it is doesn't help either, and that depending on the set you have to choose if you can't hit dark types (psywave set, i think toxic is 100% needed here so you have to give up on some better support moves) or ghost types (seismic toss, icy wind set) for real damage. I can't see this rising more than tier 5 but i think it definitely deserves a spot on the vr due to its proven success on the last ssnl.


kartana.gif


Kartana: Tier 4 -> Tier 3

This was a pretty popular mon on the last ssnl as well, and i was really impressed by the variety of sets it can run efficiently while also providing support and raw power on most of them (z tailwind, z leaf blade, z sacred sword or detect if you feel lucky :eyes:, choice scarf, av). I feel like really bulky sets are what make kartana tier 3 worthy tho, since it has a positive mu vs most of the more popular mons depending on the set (even vs gengar you can live a shadow ball and retilate with a powerful knock off or set up tw) and it literally destroys really bulky teams due to its great coverage and huge attack stat.
 
VR updates! We're up for a double-header today as we have both the standard round as well as the lower-tier sweep!

In addition, I'm happy to announce that SMB is now part of the VR team! A decorated player at the top of his game rn, his insight will surely be an asset to the team as a whole. Edu, on the other hand, will not take part in voting for a while.

Zeraora: 5 -> 4
Demantoid: 4, This thing’s speed allows it to run multiple sets fairly effectively. Having snarl that’s faster than gengar is very helpful for dealing with it.

Kaori: 4 is fine

MajorBowman: i did this

Marilli: 4 is solid yeah, a decent mon thanks to its speed tier and utility

Memoric: 5, im really not seein it still tbh

SMB: 5, i’m still a non-believer of zeraora

Talkingtree: 4 seems solid yeah, it’s a really good positioning Pokemon
Suicune: 4 -> 3
Demantoid: 3, Inner Focus Roar is a good TR check and it offers different defensive attributes than Zapdos even if it is very passive.

Kaori: mew mew (3)

MajorBowman: i did this too

Marilli: yes despite its passivity roar helps it deal with its main problem in addition to being a really good check to certain playstyles

Memoric: 3, this mon is a savage w/ tailwind and stopping room

SMB: 3, second best tw mon, nice typing, really hard to take down and inner focus roar is great at dismantling strategies

Talkingtree: Might be a little tough but this is worth 3. Can’t really ever see it any higher than that though
Mega Diancie: 4 -> 3
Demantoid: No, I tried it and it’s not good enough to move up with such little usage. I found that it was awkward to use in most situations due to its weaknesses being quite common and being weak if intimidated.

Kaori: gonna go with 4 even though im a pretty big fan of it

MajorBowman: i also did this

Marilli: meh, it feels super strong when you’re solidly in control of the match but it’s hard to do so without a lot of support because it’s so vulnerable. I feel like it punishes your opponent super hard once you’re going first and firing off attacks for KO’s, but a lot of teams have so many common super effective attacks vs it that every turn it attacks is a Big Risk. I think 4’s fine.

Memoric: 4, it seems really good going off what majorjaker said but i still doubt it’s at the level of being 3-worthy

SMB: abstain

Talkingtree: 4 still seems right but I used to be a doubter who thought it should be 5 or UR and now I’ve seen that it can be usefull in the right matchups
Celesteela: 3 -> 4
Demantoid: Yeah, it’s not really that great right now but I could see this doing well on the right team.

Kaori: sure i guess

MajorBowman: wow i did another one

Marilli: this is just not a good poke, imagine using a defensive win condition that can be trapped and removed by the most common cores in the metagame. And unlike other defensive win conditions like chansey and ferro it doesn’t actually provide support to its offensive members to remove its threats. It’s always on the back foot and feels like it’s just losing momentum every time it’s in.

Memoric: this aint hot anymore

SMB: yes, I think offensive sets are kinda unexplored and might have potential but still not tier 3 worthy.

Talkingtree: Yep, this follows the trends pretty well.
Kommo-o: 3 -> 4
Demantoid: No, I think it’s gone from the top of 3 to more the bottom.

Kaori: 3 still seems appropriate for this

MajorBowman: another one

Marilli: no. this is still a good poke, was never obligatory for success of the core but didn’t prevent it from being so threatening when it was more common. Its still a huge threat even though it might be seeing less use.

Memoric: i think it’s at the low end of 3 atm

SMB: 3, still has a great potential to close games vs unprepared or prepared (helped with the right support) teams. The ability to being immune to any of the mega gengar most common attacks is also great.

Talkingtree: 4, I tried building and using a few teams with this and was unimpressed. Maybe it’s just not my playstyle but I don’t think Kommo-o is that good.
Chansey: UR -> 5
Demantoid: yes, very good support movepool along with some of the best bulk in the game. I originally just built around it but now I’m seeing how it can fit on more.

Kaori: absolutely, think it probably should have been ranked a while ago

MajorBowman: Yeah worthy of 5 for sure, pretty hard to take down and provides a unique set of support moves while also being able to win games solo

Marilli: yeah fine this is fat and does something, probably one of the only viable defensive win conditions out there lol

Memoric: it’s enough of a pain to be 5 so ye

SMB: my nom

Talkingtree: For sure, Chansey is the stuff of nightmares for many teams.
Kartana: 4 -> 3
Demantoid: sure, probably the best truly offensive tailwind users in the tier.

Kaori: for sure, solid tailwind and good coverage options

MajorBowman: I’m slowly coming around to Kartana so I’ll give this one a yes. The Tailwind set is pretty potent and Demantoid nailed the fact the kart is probably the best offensive tailwinder in the tier. Berry and various Z sets are all solid, and scarf can be a cute way to clean up games too.

Marilli: Yes this is a good mon with offensive pressure and surprising amount of versatility.

Memoric: this is solid so agree

SMB: my nom

Talkingtree: Agreed, this is way more flexible than we all gave it credit for originally and 3 fits much more with how common and capable it is right now.
Lower-tier Sweep
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VR Changes

Zeraora 5 -> 4
Suicune 4 -> 3
Celesteela 3 -> 4
Chansey UR -> 5
Kartana 4 -> 3
---
Bronzong 4 -> 5
Ludicolo 5 -> UR
Necrozma 5 -> UR
Persian-A 5 -> UR
Shaymin-S 5 -> UR

Next VR Round is on the 26th!
 
Mega gyarados UR -> 5
This mon is pretty cool... it has intimidate, combined with really interesting offensive typing, and a nice 155 attack stat that allows it to take on some huge threats in the meta.
It can OHKO mega gengar with crunch, and avoid the 2HKO from sludge bomb with a slight investment (48 hp If your wondering). It can also 2HKO incineroar with waterfall.
Metagross also can't do much to it without the rare thunder punch, and gyarados can 2HKO it with no problem. This combined with respectable bulk (95,109,130), which gives it a lot of good opportunities to set up dragon dance. I think this makes it at least worthy of 5, and possibly 4 in the future.
RAlexa21th said:
I'm not sure about M-Gyarados. It doesn't provide as much offensive pressure as other Megas. M-Salamence just outright outclasses it. 80 Speed is a problem when so many things hit it for Super Effective damage.

Can it really 2HKO non-berry Incineroar at -1?
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it can 2HKO non-berry or berry incineroar, here's the -1 damage calc
Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Incineroar: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. As for it not being offensiv as mence, it doesn't have a crippling weakness to ice, and it can be paired with zygarde and Bulu rather well, which mence can't. Plus that's why mence is in tier 3, not tier 5 where I'm noming it for.
OrangeGuru said:
Do you have replays of M-Gyara in action? Seems like a neat nomination with how prominent Incin + MGar is, but I'd need to see it before getting behind the nom, especially since you're norming it from unranked
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sorry it took so long to get replays, I've been mostly screwing around low latter and it took me a couple hours to get reasonably high on the latter, here's a few replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-788422594





https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-788538965
 
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Jrenner said:
Mega gyarados UR -> 5
This mon is pretty cool... it has intimidate, combined with really interesting offensive typing, and a nice 155 attack stat that allows it to take on some huge threats in the meta.
It can OHKO mega gengar with crunch, and avoid the 2HKO from sludge bomb with a slight investment (48 hp If your wondering). It can also 2HKO incineroar with waterfall.
Metagross also can't do much to it without the rare thunder punch, and gyarados can 2HKO it with no problem. This combined with respectable bulk (95,109,130), which gives it a lot of good opportunities to set up dragon dance. I think this makes it at least worthy of 5, and possibly 4 in the future.
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Do you have replays of M-Gyara in action? Seems like a neat nomination with how prominent Incin + MGar is, but I'd need to see it before getting behind the nom, especially since you're norming it from unranked
 
I'm not sure about M-Gyarados. It doesn't provide as much offensive pressure as other Megas. M-Salamence just outright outclasses it. 80 Speed is a problem when so many things hit it for Super Effective damage.

Can it really 2HKO non-berry Incineroar at -1?
 
Only 1 nom this round lul

Mega Gyarados: UR -> 5
Demantoid: Stay UR. Loses to a lot of common pokemon and has trouble keeping its boosted stats which makes it weak and hard to beat the pokemon it’s supposed to win against.

Kaori: 5, its worth using on certain teams

MajorBowman: Stay UR. marilli pretty much nailed it honestly. It has some pretty good matchups on paper but really has a hard time getting going. It really needs to boost up to be threatening but it’s pretty easy to keep at bay even if it does miraculously manage to stay at +1 for more than 1 turn. If it didn’t take up a mega slot then it would be decent but it’s not worth the opportunity cost

Marilli: mega gyarados is good in battle spot singles

(no. Feels like it’s too hard to get rolling to do passable damage. It does have some favorable matchups in theory like lando incineroar mega gengar and mega metagross and what not but it actually cannot switch in much especially prior to mega evolution. And if you want to get a clean switch in, there’s many more sweepers who can be more useful. It’s got so many bad matchups (zap, tapus, amoonguss, intimidate spam, kyurem-b, sr). On top of that it hits weaker than a neutral mence at +1, and have fun getting to +1 when vs gengar intimidate spam. I’ve used this thing after the nom with tornadus / thundurus in order to punish the intimidate spam and it felt like zygarde was just doing all the work instead.)

Memoric: UR. While I do think it’s somewhat usable as it does have a good mgross matchup and a dece gengar matchup, it feels a bit too slow to be effective. Also quite weak. A lot of bitches in the tier also give it the hands so nah. Too ineffective of a wincon.

SMB: UR; I think marilli explained perfectly why mega gyarados shouldn't be ranked, I'd like to add that mega gyarados awkward speed kinda forces you to run a jolly nature to outspeed mega gengar and tapu koko with 1 dd boost which is kinda disappointing. I've personally tried to make this work a few times (for example on dpl) and i've always come to the same conclusion: the team would be better with a different mega or a different dd mon.

Talkingtree: stay UR. though this falls under a specific category of UR mon where on the right team / with the right circumstances it can be quite threatening and viable, it doesn’t have the damage output necessary to be a successful setup sweeper in the current meta.
VR Changes

:blobshrug:

Next voting round is on Sepetmber 16!
 
This lower-tier sweep should have been posted yesterday but our hero has been getting the hands from his new college life. Alas!

Lower-tier Sweep
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VR Changes

Chansey 5 -> 4
Mega Diancie 4 -> 5
Ninetales-A 5 -> UR

See you all on September 16 for the next round of voting!
 
Salamence Mega: 3-> 4 or lower

I haven't seen any use for this Mega. With Incineroar out DDance is much harder to pull off, for a dragon dancer I'd much rather use Zygarde who has access to Z-crystals or leftovers. Sure it's powerful under the right circumstances but the current meta doesn't seem like "the right circumstances" with Mega-Gengar and Mega-Metagross offering more to a team. Maybe this might rise back up if once Marshadow is freed but drop it out of 3 for now.

Mega Tyranitar: 3->4

I really can't think of too many instances where I'd opt for Mega Tyranitar rather than regular Tyranitar other than to remove Zard-Y sun. Compared to the other Megas in Tier 3 (Manectric, Scizor, Zard-Y) it feels like it has significantly little use compared to the other megas in the tier and offers little more than a Zard-Y counter and a bit more power compared to regular Tyranitar.

Hoopa-U: 3->4

Hoopa-U can still be dangerous under the right circumstances, especially if unprepared for in Trick Room. However with ubiquitous Incineroar completely walling its standard TR set and being OHKOed by a U-turn from Incineroar doesn't do it any favors, and combined with its less than desirable speed tier and below-average physical bulk, this thing doesn't have much opportunities to show off its insane Protect-breaking moves and its SpA/Attack stats.
Seems to fit right in with the definition of Tier 4: Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below


Also wanting to nom Bisharp to 5 but I haven't see enough use to justify/support.
 
Zygarde 1 -> 2

The prevalence of mons that outspeed and either KO or seriously dent Zygarde has grown since mons like Genesect and offensive Kyurem have become more popular. Zygarde just feels pretty hard to use these days and doesn't strike me as a tier 1 pokemon anymore. Wouldn't go any lower than 2 because Thousand Arrows is ridiculous but I don't think it belongs in 1.
 
Tapu Lele 2 -> 3

I feel like Tapu Lele is weird to fit onto teams right now, and in scouting I've found that most snake players tend to have it as their least-used island guardian. I know that usage doesn't necessarily correlate to viability, but it seems that the reign of Gengar/Metagross/Zard Y as the three best megas, the prevalence of psychic switchins in incineroar and genesect, and its general frailty making it difficult for Lele to check defensively some of the things it beats offensively (LOKB comes to mind), Lele is the worst Tapu right now and should be the lowest-ranked as well.

Hitmontop UR -> 5

To be honest I don't really expect this to pass, but I think Hitmontop has a pretty clear niche right now in taking on Incineroar really well and offering lots of support in Fake Out / Wide Guard / Helping Hand / Intimidate. In testing for Biosci's game against stax I was pleasantly surprised by this thing and it almost always pulled its weight. Certainly seems about as viable as other dedicated support mons since it does that support worse but also offers ways to offensively take on Incineroar / Chansey / Porygon2 / Genesect (sort of), all of which have been on an upswing recently.
 
Gothitelle: 3 > 4

While trapping is still amazing and all, it has been a long time since the departure of Snorlax (which was a fantastic Pokemon by itself anyway) and I feel like Gothitelle is less effective without it. I tried finding other partners for it; those being Kommo-O and Stakataka, and the result ended up being far less impressive than I expected. Kommo-O functions better with Mega Gengar than Gothitelle, and Stakataka is a far cry from Snorlax as it achieves boosts from ability rather than move and lacks a reliable form of recovery. Gothitelle also has a worse matchup against Incineroar as it's weak to both Knock Off (especially if it still has its item) and U-turn. Then again, I could be very wrong with this nom, so I'm open to corrections.
 
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It's still September 16 somewhere, I hope!

Mega Salamence: 3 -> 4
Demantoid: 5 tbh. Megamence is just :sobad: The special set doesn’t hit hard enough while the physical ones gets intimidated too much to be effective.

Kaori: gonna say 3, typing is still really good and intimidate will never not be good. Certainly has fallen far though

MajorBowman: Remain 3 but only barely imo. Part of me thinks that mence is still good but it’s definitely much more difficult to use than during its glory days. Hyper Voice still does meaningful damage, Double Edge can clean up well, offensive tailwind setter is pretty nice.

Marilli: hnnng 3. this is really a tough case because while a lot of people can certainly see the potential this has, it is our policy to rank things based on what is commonly being used in the meta, not by theorymon. but i feel like even with the hostile teams it’s very quite close to 3 as is and 3.5 is what i would say if i’m allowed to. Maybe if people stop carrying excessive ice moves even when zygarde and salamence is clearly less strong, maybe it can rise back to more solid in 3 but i have to admit it’s one of the lowest mons in 3 atm. No lower than 4 tbh.

Memoric: EHHHH still gonna say 3, like a really low end of it but yeah

SMB: 4, dd set is bad, the only reason i see to justify using mence is the role compression of intimidate + tailwind but it doesn’t excel on any of these roles

Talkingtree: Yeah, I find it tough to justify using Mence right now. It’s still definitely viable but clearly worse than a lot of what’s in Tier 3
Mega Tyranitar 3 -> 4
Demantoid: Yes, doesn’t see almost any usage. Lots of intimidate hurts its viability.

Kaori: still think 3 is more fitting as well, dd isnt as effective but other sets are worth looking at

MajorBowman: Yes, never been a fan of mega ttar. I don’t really see why you’d use it over regular ttar + another mega other than for DD speed tiers but I also think DD ttar (regular or mega) is pretty underwhelming so to me there’s little reason for mega ttar at all.

Marilli: 4 yeah i dont see this a lot

Memoric: yes this been bad and i dont see this anywhere

SMB: i feel like pursuit/sr-se-ice punch is probably the best way to go with mega ttar rn, but what made this mon relevant is the dd set which is not as good anymore so I think 4 is ok

Talkingtree: Been a while since I’ve seen considerable Mega Ttar presence, this is a far more niche pick than 3 would suggest. 4’s good for now, could theoretically see this dropping to 5 at some point.
Hoopa-U 3 -> 4
Demantoid: no, I think Hoopa-U is still pretty good. Now it has multiple sets that are all okay instead of one really good set like before.

Kaori: 3 for sure, it can get really creative with its sets and threatens so much

MajorBowman: Remain 3 definitely. It’s still super potent in the right hands, and the fight Z set beats what should be its best counter. Another “not as good as it used to be” mon but still 3 to me.

Marilli: lol no imagine restricting urself to 2 stabs and get walled by like the top 4 most common pokemon in the tier like an obstinate fool when it has all the right tools to beat every single one of them. its got the tools and it’s good as long as it’s a niche mon that can surprise its common counters.

Memoric: no way lol, hoopa is a 3 mon p much; it can play around with what it can do and is still powerful in its own right so yeah.

SMB: no, it has a huge variety of sets (including lures to some of its most popular counters) that can be really threatening with little support. Tier 3 description fits perfectly with it tbh

Talkingtree: no, I still think Hoopa-U has a place. It’s way more versatile than people give it credit for and is just absurdly threatening in its ability to pick and choose its counters. I’m not going to say it should rise any time soon, but this should stay in 3.
Zygarde 1 -> 2
Demantoid: Yes, it can still dominate games but it’s generally harder to get set up than before and still suffers from being fairly weak.

Kaori: i guess, still should be as respected as much as the tier 1 mons tho

MajorBowman: yes, my nom

Marilli: i guess, still should be as respected as much as the tier 1 mons tho

Memoric: ye, its a bit slow-ish now

SMB: 2, still a top mon but it requires more support to work than a few months ago

Talkingtree: Pour one out for Zygarde, your reign of dominance is over. Still a great mon, but Bowman’s nom pretty much outlines why this should drop.
Tapu Lele 2 -> 3
Demantoid: no, I think koko is worse than lele rn tbh. Lele still has a lot of offensive presence and multiple sets it can run.

Kaori: no, lele still puts out crazy pressure and psychic terrain is still v good

MajorBowman: No, Lele is still potent. Psychic Terrain itself is pretty strong and Lele can still do a bunch of damage on the right teams. Definitely agree that it’s the “worst tapu” but that’s kinda misleading since I think all 4 tapus are all super good in their own respects.

Marilli: yeah no way this is still really good.

Memoric: whose mans is this, no way. Lele is still crazy powerful and threatening no way this goes 3.

SMB: i agree with tree’s nom that this is the worst tapu rn but i still see it as a bottom tier 2 mon instead of a top tier 3 mon

Talkingtree: my nom
Hitmontop UR -> 5
Demantoid: abstain. Haven’t seen/used it enough to know if it’s actually effective.

Kaori: like, sure? Spinning is cool and being an intimidate user that fares well vs incineroar is cool i guess so we'll go with 5

MajorBowman: uhhhhh honestly I’m not really sure. I think the only tops I’ve seen were ezrael and biosci in snake and they put in some decent work. I guess it’s a cool zard partner for fake out/intimidate/wide guard/rapid spin. I’ll say 5 but a very tentative 5

Marilli: ur. it seems decent enough to use, is it decent enough to rank tho idk… I’ve seen it in some matches and it’s a decent enough mon for me to use for sure. But you really need a lot of mega gengar counterplay - like have 0 pokemon that get outsped and ohkoed by mega gengar or get ohkoed after slight chip, because if you get trapped vs it you basically lost the game. Use sucker punch? Lol you made your hitmontop set lose a CORE support move that basically justifies its existence and therefore, often the entire point of using this thing goes out the window, just to do 40% to mega gengar. yikes. Feels like it has a niche but will basically only see use in a very very specific 5 mon core. When the said specific 5-of rises to metagame prominence, we can rank it for sure.

Memoric: UR, Hitmontop is a little too brazy for its own good.

SMB: UR, imagine playing 2vs1 all the game if it gets trapped vs any mega gengar team

Talkingtree: my nom, also has some offensive options I didn’t mention like Sucker Punch (to avoid being useless vs Gengar) and Stone Edge (to surprise KO Zard / Volcarona).

VR Changes

Mega Tyranitar 3 -> 4
Zygarde 1 -> 2

Next round will be on October 7 aye

Note: The Goth vote came in late while we were voting so uh yeah lol; there's a period before the new round wherein we stop taking votes, so that nom will be done next round.
 
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Pwndkthnx said:
So, I’ve been interested in this thread for awhile now (as I use it a lot when building my teams). That being said, I think I’m finally ready to provide some type of input. Here we go.

Mega Gengar > 2
I’m not gonna lie. Mega Gengar is a dope Pokémon, and one of my favs for awhile now. However, with Incineroar running rampant, I don’t see it around as much anymore. Shadow Tag is one of the most useful abilities in the game, but it’s worthless when the mon using it can be outsped and OHKO’d with a super effective STAB attack. And then there’s the notorious Lando-T.

Genesect > 1
Man. I really started using this monster thing because it’s the highest ranked Bug/Steel Pokémon, but after really battling with it over and over, I finally realize why it has its status. Download is wicked. It’s a 50/50 for either ATK stat, but if you’re running a balanced Genesect (like me), the boost will benefit you either way. Aside from that, it’s typing is phenomenal, and it only has one weakness (which can be mitigated). It has a great set of moves (like Ice Beam and Energy Ball), and enough resistances to keep it in the game for a long time.

Kyurem-B > 3
Meh. I think Kyurem-B is pretty cool (no pun intended), and very useful when used appropriately, but I just don’t see it as much anymore. I mean, what is it really needed for? Like, idek what to say about this thing, so I’ll just keep it moving.

Tapu Lele > 1
I really don’t get why y’all are shitting on this behemoth, but I wouldn’t underestimate it. Psychic Terrain is busted. It stops Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, and the list goes on. You give it something that boosts its SPA (like LO or Wise Glasses), use Psychic, and then it’s GG. I’ve legit solo’d teams with this thing. It’s quite fast without any enhancements, it’s pool of moves are versatile (like Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball), and, overall, it’s a very powerful Pokémon.

Volcanion > 3
I miss this thing. Nonetheless, the days of hype for Volcanion are long gone. All you need to use is Incineroar and Tapu Fini, and you have Volcanion. Yeah, both of them together would take up two slots, but it’s better than one slot of garbage (no offense, Volcanion lovers). Also, I don’t really see it much.

Suicine > 2
What is this thing??? When I say bulk, man, do I mean bulk. You can hit this thing with everything you have, and it still manages to survive. It has speed control (Tailwind and Icy Wind), recovery (Roost), and even the superior version of protect (Detect). It has a large range of moves, and has the capability of doing some damage to the unexpecting. And then it has Roar to blow away booster and TR Pokémon. I’ve legit had people forfeit because this thing ruins their strategy. #FREESUICUNE

Chansey > 3
This is one tough cutie. Do I really need to talk about this? Chansey has gotten me consecutive wins because it’s just so damn good at what it does: healing. It can heal itself, heal other Pokémon, and even cure status conditions. I can guarantee you that (if played properly) this will be your last Pokémon to drop. Unfortunately, it needs Eviolite, but that’s okay ‘cuz that just means that it’ll be even harder to defeat.

Zeraora > 5
Trash. I’m so disappointed in this Pokémon. It had so much potential, but ended up like Naganadel (useless). It has speed and a unique STAB move, sure. But what else? It’s a no from me.

Mega Diancie > 4
Why are y’all sleeping on my baby? I think it has great typing (being Rock and Fairy), and a pretty dank and unique STAB move (Diamond Storm) that has a 50% chance of boosting its DEF. It’s stats are outrageous. It’s fast and strong, and can be very terrifying in the hands of a master.

Landorus > 4
This thing is as cool as Lando-T. With Intimidate being a popular ability right now, having Pokémon with high SPA can be advantageous. Sheer Force makes this thing even more lethal, and it has access to a nice variety of moves.

Ditto > 5
Ditto isn’t a joke. When it’s not being used for gimmicks, it’s wrecking teams. This Pokémon can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It’s always gonna be as strong as whatever it copies, and, since it can utilize Imposter, it can instantly transform and get the job done. Please give Ditto a chance.
Click to expand...
Chief, Suicune sure as fuck doesn't get Roost or Detect. And Lele sure as shit isn't #1 material for this environment. And Ditto is nothing but a gimmick hoping you'll get something good instead of using something good because you saw that one episode of Heatah Fajita. Check your facts before you start dropping mad disses, yo.

(Edit)
And no offense, but you're being a bit bare boned when it comes to some of the Mons here. I'm not a pro at these threads or DOU but you really ought to provide more details about why you're ranking these Pokemon the way you are

Holy shit I just read Wise Glasses Tbolt Lele and Energy Ball Genesect. This brazy with it
 
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Hi Pwndkthnx ! When writing VR posts, keep in mind that your audience is other experienced players. Generally, this means that we already know mechanical interactions like Psychic Terrain blocking all priority moves and the typing of mons. By cutting down on material that would be in a standard analysis geared for beginners, you can keep the bulk of your post focused on insights / unique highlights that you think the vr council and other players may have missed. A good example can be seen here
HeatEdgeSword said:
Gothitelle: 3 > 4

While trapping is still amazing and all, it has been a long time since the departure of Snorlax (which was a fantastic Pokemon by itself anyway) and I feel like Gothitelle is less effective without it. I tried finding other partners for it; those being Kommo-O and Stakataka, and the result ended up being far less impressive than I expected. Kommo-O functions better with Mega Gengar than Gothitelle, and Stakataka is a far cry from Snorlax as it achieves boosts from ability rather than move and lacks a reliable form of recovery. Gothitelle also has a worse matchup against Incineroar as it's weak to both Knock Off (especially if it still has its item) and U-turn. Then again, I could be very wrong with this nom, so I'm open to corrections.
Click to expand...

Where HeatEdgeSword talks about both the history of Gothitelle's usage and its correlation with other top threats. Most importantly, he/she talks about their personal experience using the mon, showing that he/she is coming into this dialogue with real experience and not just going down a list and checking how his/her dick twitches.
 
Hello there, Pwndkthnx! Unfortunately, I'm going to disagree most of your nominations and give you some in-depth reasons on why. I will be skipping Chansey and Landorus Incarnate since I don't have too much opinion about them.

Pwndkthnx said:
Mega Gengar > 2
I’m not gonna lie. Mega Gengar is a dope Pokémon, and one of my favs for awhile now. However, with Incineroar running rampant, I don’t see it around as much anymore. Shadow Tag is one of the most useful abilities in the game, but it’s worthless when the mon using it can be outsped and OHKO’d with a super effective STAB attack. And then there’s the notorious Lando-T.
Click to expand...
Don't see any reason why Mega Gengar should be ranked lower right now, it still performs relatively well even with Incineroar and Landorus Therian roaming around since they don't fully resist Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb, just one of them. Intimidate doesn't affect Mega Gengar all that much either as it's a special attacker.

Pwndkthnx said:
Genesect > 1
Man. I really started using this monster thing because it’s the highest ranked Bug/Steel Pokémon, but after really battling with it over and over, I finally realize why it has its status. Download is wicked. It’s a 50/50 for either ATK stat, but if you’re running a balanced Genesect (like me), the boost will benefit you either way. Aside from that, it’s typing is phenomenal, and it only has one weakness (which can be mitigated). It has a great set of moves (like Ice Beam and Energy Ball), and enough resistances to keep it in the game for a long time.
Click to expand...
are we going to do energy ball genesect again While Genesect is fantastic Pokemon, it is rather linear and not dominating enough to warrant the Tier 1 treatment, at least in my humble opinion.

Pwndkthnx said:
Tapu Lele > 1
I really don’t get why y’all are shitting on this behemoth, but I wouldn’t underestimate it. Psychic Terrain is busted. It stops Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, and the list goes on. You give it something that boosts its SPA (like LO or Wise Glasses), use Psychic, and then it’s GG. I’ve legit solo’d teams with this thing. It’s quite fast without any enhancements, it’s pool of moves are versatile (like Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball), and, overall, it’s a very powerful Pokémon.
Click to expand...
Again, I don't think Tapu Lele should be Tier 1 now. Also, the best item for Tapu Lele right now is Choice Scarf.

Pwndkthnx said:
Volcanion > 3
I miss this thing. Nonetheless, the days of hype for Volcanion are long gone. All you need to use is Incineroar and Tapu Fini, and you have Volcanion. Yeah, both of them together would take up two slots, but it’s better than one slot of garbage (no offense, Volcanion lovers). Also, I don’t really see it much.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why you mention Tapu Fini and Incineroar when Volcanion can counter both of them. I think Volcanion should stay in Tier 2 as a Fire-type that doesn't lose to Water-type.

Pwndkthnx said:
Suicine > 2
What is this thing??? When I say bulk, man, do I mean bulk. You can hit this thing with everything you have, and it still manages to survive. It has speed control (Tailwind and Icy Wind), recovery (Roost), and even the superior version of protect (Detect). It has a large range of moves, and has the capability of doing some damage to the unexpecting. And then it has Roar to blow away booster and TR Pokémon. I’ve legit had people forfeit because this thing ruins their strategy. #FREESUICUNE
Click to expand...
Suicune is too passive to warrant a huge rise to Tier 2. And I'm going to ignore the mention of Suicune getting Roost because it really doesn't.

Pwndkthnx said:
Zeraora > 5
Trash. I’m so disappointed in this Pokémon. It had so much potential, but ended up like Naganadel (useless). It has speed and a unique STAB move, sure. But what else? It’s a no from me.
Click to expand...
Zeraora isn't meant to function as an all-out attacker in Doubles, but rather as an offensive supporter with Fake Out, Snarl and Volt Switch with Assault Vest as its held item.

Pwndkthnx said:
Mega Diancie > 4
Why are y’all sleeping on my baby? I think it has great typing (being Rock and Fairy), and a pretty dank and unique STAB move (Diamond Storm) that has a 50% chance of boosting its DEF. It’s stats are outrageous. It’s fast and strong, and can be very terrifying in the hands of a master.
Click to expand...
Nowadays, regular Diancie's considered better than its Mega form since Trick Room is fantastic and it doesn't need to run a lowering defense nature. I remembered that someone else also noms Mega Diancie for a rise before, but it was rejected and later got a drop instead.

Pwndkthnx said:
Ditto > 5
Ditto isn’t a joke. When it’s not being used for gimmicks, it’s wrecking teams. This Pokémon can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It’s always gonna be as strong as whatever it copies, and, since it can utilize Imposter, it can instantly transform and get the job done. Please give Ditto a chance.
Click to expand...
Mew exists. Most of the time in doubles, you usually want to transform into your ally rather than the opponents. Mew does a fantastic job doing that Transform role while Ditto isn't good at it since Imposter only transform the foe, and it doesn't have the bulk nor the speed to transform its ally.
 
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Pwndkthnx said:
So, I’ve been interested in this thread for awhile now (as I use it a lot when building my teams). That being said, I think I’m finally ready to provide some type of input. Here we go.

Mega Gengar > 2
I’m not gonna lie. Mega Gengar is a dope Pokémon, and one of my favs for awhile now. However, with Incineroar running rampant, I don’t see it around as much anymore. Shadow Tag is one of the most useful abilities in the game, but it’s worthless when the mon using it can be outsped and OHKO’d with a super effective STAB attack. And then there’s the notorious Lando-T.

Genesect > 1
Man. I really started using this monster thing because it’s the highest ranked Bug/Steel Pokémon, but after really battling with it over and over, I finally realize why it has its status. Download is wicked. It’s a 50/50 for either ATK stat, but if you’re running a balanced Genesect (like me), the boost will benefit you either way. Aside from that, it’s typing is phenomenal, and it only has one weakness (which can be mitigated). It has a great set of moves (like Ice Beam and Energy Ball), and enough resistances to keep it in the game for a long time.

Kyurem-B > 3
Meh. I think Kyurem-B is pretty cool (no pun intended), and very useful when used appropriately, but I just don’t see it as much anymore. I mean, what is it really needed for? Like, idek what to say about this thing, so I’ll just keep it moving.

Tapu Lele > 1
I really don’t get why y’all are shitting on this behemoth, but I wouldn’t underestimate it. Psychic Terrain is busted. It stops Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, and the list goes on. You give it something that boosts its SPA (like LO or Wise Glasses), use Psychic, and then it’s GG. I’ve legit solo’d teams with this thing. It’s quite fast without any enhancements, it’s pool of moves are versatile (like Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball), and, overall, it’s a very powerful Pokémon.

Volcanion > 3
I miss this thing. Nonetheless, the days of hype for Volcanion are long gone. All you need to use is Incineroar and Tapu Fini, and you have Volcanion. Yeah, both of them together would take up two slots, but it’s better than one slot of garbage (no offense, Volcanion lovers). Also, I don’t really see it much.

Suicine > 2
What is this thing??? When I say bulk, man, do I mean bulk. You can hit this thing with everything you have, and it still manages to survive. It has speed control (Tailwind and Icy Wind), recovery (Roost), and even the superior version of protect (Detect). It has a large range of moves, and has the capability of doing some damage to the unexpecting. And then it has Roar to blow away booster and TR Pokémon. I’ve legit had people forfeit because this thing ruins their strategy. #FREESUICUNE

Chansey > 3
This is one tough cutie. Do I really need to talk about this? Chansey has gotten me consecutive wins because it’s just so damn good at what it does: healing. It can heal itself, heal other Pokémon, and even cure status conditions. I can guarantee you that (if played properly) this will be your last Pokémon to drop. Unfortunately, it needs Eviolite, but that’s okay ‘cuz that just means that it’ll be even harder to defeat.

Zeraora > 5
Trash. I’m so disappointed in this Pokémon. It had so much potential, but ended up like Naganadel (useless). It has speed and a unique STAB move, sure. But what else? It’s a no from me.

Mega Diancie > 4
Why are y’all sleeping on my baby? I think it has great typing (being Rock and Fairy), and a pretty dank and unique STAB move (Diamond Storm) that has a 50% chance of boosting its DEF. It’s stats are outrageous. It’s fast and strong, and can be very terrifying in the hands of a master.

Landorus > 4
This thing is as cool as Lando-T. With Intimidate being a popular ability right now, having Pokémon with high SPA can be advantageous. Sheer Force makes this thing even more lethal, and it has access to a nice variety of moves.

Ditto > 5
Ditto isn’t a joke. When it’s not being used for gimmicks, it’s wrecking teams. This Pokémon can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It’s always gonna be as strong as whatever it copies, and, since it can utilize Imposter, it can instantly transform and get the job done. Please give Ditto a chance.
Click to expand...
Others have already got my opinions on all your noms except landorus-incarnate pretty well... I'll agree with the landorus nom, but I'll expand a bit. It has higher speed, and special atk than standard lando. It's one of the only mons in the tier that can OHKO aegislash in shield form without a boost or z move, It can OHKO Bulu and koko, but it can have a bit of trouble with koko if it's carrying HP ice (which isn't super common) it can also 2hko fini and has a very good chance to OHKO lele. Berry incinaroar and metagross also gets OHKOed (although the latter will outspeed and has a good chance to carry ice punch). It does have a problem with just having 4 move slots tho, as it wants to carry rock slide, earth power, hp ice, sludge bomb, protect, uturn, and knock off which can make it tricky to use. I think 4 is fine for lando.
 
Mega-Pokebattlerz said:
Suicune gets Detect from TM43 in Gen II, so you can get Detect Suicune via VC. Doesn't mean anything since Detect is just Protect with less PP, though. And I don't think Imprison is viable anyways.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what I was implying with 1200. Imprison was a sort of gimmick but not gimmick because it could fuck up a whole game in older VGC formats. Detect does look cooler, though, so it does have that going for it. Man if Suicune did actually get Roost
 
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