USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[autumn]

Nihilego to B/B-: Disagree

Even though Scizor is a very prominent threat and bulky Ground-types like Swampert and Hippowdon and particularly Rhyperior are very good right now, Nihilego shouldn't drop from B+. It can threaten the increase in these bulky Ground-types and Water-types with Grass Knot and Z-Thunder, and it's also a very consistent Stealth Rock setter that doesn't struggle with passivity like many do. As Juuno said, the fact this can switch into Pokemon like Moltres and Mega Pidgeot, as well as a large number of other key special attackers like Mega Manectric and most Hydreigon variants too. Just because there is an increase in hazard removal, it doesn't mean at all that hazard setters should drop in viability; in fact, this can beat most Defoggers so it's useful to ensure hazards stay up in a meta full of Defoggers.

Mega Absol to C/C-: Agree

This Pokemon hasn't been great for a while, and C+ is way too generous for a Pokemon that's punished by every form of priority and the influx of faster Pokemon and U-turn users. Its lack of bulk makes it impossible to utilize its ability in the way it has the potential to be, and its offenses are good, but you don't have opportunities to set up Swords Dance at all to make it threatening. Losing out on teh ability to use Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Altaria costs too much for this.

Rhyperior to B+: Agree and to A-: Disagree

Even though Rhyperior is really fulfilling its niche in a metagame where it can check Flying-types and Mega Manectric as well as a lot of physical attackers to ensure hazards stay up, I don't think it's A- material. It doesn't have good matchups against a lot of the upper ranks, like Serperior, Breloom, Suicune, and Primarina. It isn't as passive as other Stealth Rock setters, but its weaknesses to some of UU's most commmon typings does cause it to struggle in some matchups. A rise is definitely deserved because Rhyperior has much more worth than other B Pokemon like Raikou and Salazzle, and its ability to switch into a lot of threats does make it worthwhile.

I'm nominating Venomoth from C+ to C/C-

I've wonderedfor a while why Venomoth was ranked the same as Pokemon like Vileplume, Feraligatr, and Florges, and I think now is the time it should drop. The meta hasn't been too kind to it, as its niche isn't needed as much. While UU may lack Quiver Dance users, other special setup sweepers like Calm Mind Latias, Nasty Plot Celebi, and even less offensive setup users like Suicune and Mega Slowbro are more more useful than this. As a Poison-type, it's outclassed by Pokemon like Nidoking and Nihilego as well as Salazzle, which can set up faster, has better base Special Attack and Speed, and can hit Steel-types super effectively. Its type coverage is lacking; even with Tinted Lens it can't break thrugh Pokemon like Cobalion and Gliscor, unless boosted. Yanmega as a Tinted Lens user offers a lot more; it can pivot with U-turn, use Giga Drain, and not have to rely on boosts or Z-Moves to perform its role. Choice Scarf users like Latias, Infernape, Nihilego, and even Hydreigon can easily revenge kill it and stop a potential sweep. Its Stealth Rock weakness also doesn't help it; it requires team support to function, and teams would much rather prefer a stronger Z-Move user with better coverage, not having to rely on only its STAB moves. Its Sleep Powder niche also offers little due to Breloom's ability to do the same (put foes to sleep then set up, but more efficiently, and the meta has adapted to sleep inducers more as a result). The meta has adapted to it, and it shouldn't be C+ any more, as the other Pokemon in that rank offer more for teams.

 

[Taptricity]

Alright first post in the UU vr! Let's get started!

Rotom Mow to A-=Agreed
Bulky grass types have entered to fill in the void of Amoongus and Rotom Mow is taking charge! It fulfills its role effectively as an offensive pivot that isn't really bothered by sr. It makes excellent use of defog and can also make use of a Z-Leaf Storm as a grass nuke. Rotom Mow also benefits greatly from the rise of bulky grounds since none of them are going to come in to block volt switch just to get hit by leaf storm, and Mow is will-o-wisping the physical dragons that are emerging as well.

Tsareena to B=Agreed
Another grass type that benefits from metagame trends. Tsareena is really finding itself a place in the tier. Being able to rapid spin while beating every viable sr setter is an amazing niche. Tsareena can also come in to check Breloom if need be (as long as it's not ganlon but that set is just too niche) and gets a nice amount of opportunities to rapid spin. It's ability to block out any priority also makes up for its speed too.

I've seen people post their opinion on this mon so I'll give my thoughts on it:

Magneton from B- to C+
Magneton is just very underwhelming. So just like it's older brother Magnezone, it traps Steels the problem is that Steel types in UU have a lot more ways to beat Magneton. It's difficult for this Pokémon to get any switch ins on steel types with Scizor just U-turning out as you switch Magneton in which allows your opponent to bring in a more favorable matchup, or Mega Aggron and Metagross just firing off an EQ. Magneton has to run specs anyway just so that it can pick up the KO because with scarf here:

252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 117-138 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You only 3HKO Mega Aggron with scarf which gives him enough time to OHKO with EQ. Specs will give you a 2HKO which is what gives it the edge over it. Magneton is now getting even less opportunities to get in with the meta working against electric types much harder than it ever has. Magneton is just struggling too much with its niche right now and could end up just being a waste of a teamslot.

 

[Monz]

Alright, let me chip in as well.

I definitely agree on the rises of both of them, the necessity of a ground type on the team allowed the grass types to shine in the tier, with Breloom and Serperior decimating opposing teams lacking proper grass responses, while Tsareena and Rotom perform defensive duties equally as effective (P.S. - CB Tsareena hurts). Being able to defog/rapid spin on basically every rocks setter in the tier while also gaining momentun with volt-turn is really valuable at the moment.

I disagee for those two to match up in VR. Although they perform fairly equally in quite the few of roles (scarf, specs, stallbreaker) I still believe the Gengar being ranked higher is appropriate at the moment. While Chandelure thrives on the slower teams, the speed adventage Gengar has allows it to be more consistent across every type of team you are up against, as well as the fairy coverage it has which allows it to deal with dark types, especially Hydreigon which is the bane of every Chandelure user.

Now for my own nomination:

Roserade C- to at least C+

When I saw this thing is C- alongside the likes of Registeel and Cloyster, I threw up a bit. Remember the prevelance of aformentioned grass types? Well, while being one itself, it also beats every other one. Both offensive and defensive versions can work but im really into the latter one at the moment. Free spike / leech seed / sleep powder on the majority of rock setters in the tier, great matchup against lot of current A / A+ mons (Mega-Altaria, Primarina, Togekiss, Suicune, Mega-Bro, Serperior, Mega-Sharpedo) as well as being one of the best Breloom answers we have definitely warrants the rise.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Alright, let me chip in as well.

Roserade C- to at least C+

When I saw this thing is C- alongside the likes of Registeel and Cloyster, I threw up a bit. Remember the prevelance of aformentioned grass types? Well, while being one itself, it also beats every other one. Both offensive and defensive versions can work but im really into the latter one at the moment. Free spike / leech seed / sleep powder on the majority of rock setters in the tier, great matchup against lot of current A / A+ mons (Mega-Altaria, Primarina, Togekiss, Suicune, Mega-Bro, Serperior, Mega-Sharpedo) as well as being one of the best Breloom answers we have definitely warrants the rise.

I disagree with some points about Roserade. For one, it doesn't have a good Shark Matchup. Like, at all. It is easily the frailest grass poison type and underspeeds REGULAR unboosted Shark.
252 Atk Sharpedo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 248-294 (95 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Shark can literally just kill this thing and get it's free speed boost in the same turn. And if we're talking defensive versions.....
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roserade: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Roserade does very little to stave its rampage. And mind you, these are JOLLY calcs. Adamant Shark straight up kills it.
Primarina isn't a great matchup either, as Roserade needs to be max HP to simply avoid a 2hko from Prim's very spammable stabs
(252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 126-148 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
(252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 108-128 (41.3 - 49%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
and even then, psychic coverage kills it for sure.
Roserade also doesn't have a stellar matchup vs Togekiss. It struggles to find switchins with air slash and even then it struggles to kill Toge without a LO
(252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 254-302 (67.9 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
While it can win with LO, it still has a low chance to kill a full health Toge, and also forces Roserade to run a fully offensive set, which as shown above, ruins your matchup against certain water breakers with a lack of HP.
Breloom is also a really bad matchup for Roserade.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roserade: 133-156 (41 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I don't like my fully defensive grass type still at risk of getting 2hkoed by Breloom with minimal chip. And forget about offensive variants, which can get turned into confetti by Breloom.
(And lets not even bring up pheal facade, as the offensive variant of Roserade is clean OHKOed by Facade, and a fully bulky variant eats a 2hko)
As for Serp, this is one of Roserade's few good matchups.......If its not Z-hyper beam, which can OHKO even a bulkier variant after leaf storm.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 289-340 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Since I don't wanna prattle on too long, I'll leave it at this: Roserade is much, much frailer than the other grass/poison types. Its fantastic that it has good offensive applications, but it can't switchin, or even reliably handle some of the mons you said it can. It also struggles a lot more with the current meta than some other poison grass types.
And while you noted a lot of good matchups for Roserade, you neglected to list some of its bad ones, like Lati and Moltres, who are commonly seen running sleep measures, can usually take at least 1 hit, and/or might be defog to send Roserade scurrying from their STABS while removing its spikes. Not to mention Bat who can pretty much wall anything Roserade does, is commonly seen running sleep absorption, and can taunt it out of support moves or defog possible hazards. It also struggles to break some steels of the current meta, like Aggron-Mega, Cobalion, Klefki, Registeel, the newfound Silvally steel, and Bronzong who all can take 1-2 HP fires from Roserade, completely wall its stabs, and do something that messes it up and/or straight up kills it. Hell, Scizor wins if it comes in at the right time. Roserade arguably has some of the worst struggles with Scizor of any ranked grass type, by account of how frail it is (252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 229-271 (87.7 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, and bulkier Roserades underspeed offensive Scizor variants so it can be killed by bug STAB) Where as most other grasses like Rotom-mow, Tsareena, Vileplume, Serperior, and even Celebi (if its HP fire) can handle BP and return fire. It can also struggle with bulkier teams, as it is unable to really threaten certain stall staples like Blissey and Mega Aggron, hell, it can even struggle to break defensive Gliscor from full, not to mention the aforementioned Crobat whenever it makes an appearance on a bulky build, making it dead weight against certain team compositions. It also struggles with Alolan Muk, who it can't touch at all and gets chipped by pursuit, a bad thing seeing as Alolan Muk is such a common sight on Breloom teams. Roserade's middling speed tier is also not pleasant for how little bulk it holds. As pokemon like Gengar, Aerodactyl-Mega, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Kyurem, Pidgeot-Mega and many other fast pokemon that can KO it give it tons of problems. In fact, another faster mon that can KO Roserade, is actually pretty stiff competition for it's offensive niche.

This checks Breloom better, can actually handle pokemon like Alolan Muk that are common breloom partners, is faster, can much better threaten defensive teambuilds, and even beat Roserade itself with psychic STAB.
Overall, Roserade's inability to both be bulky and a threatening attacker on the same set, stiff competition for the grass type niche by mons that are faster, bulkier, have more unique types/abilities, etc. As well as facing more struggles than other grasses make me firm in the belief that it shouldn't be ranked with C+, which contains pokemon like Vileplume and Bronzong who generally have less weakness and face less struggles in the current meta. I think C rank would be a good pick for Roserade, being ranked with Pokemon like Pyukumuku and Seismitoad would reflect that Roserade has a very defined niche in the meta and would reflect how its replying to meta trends, while still signaling that its a pokemon that faces some struggles against the metagame trends that aren't directly helping it.
All in all, Roserade COULD rise, but I think C+ is too much for it.

 

[Adaam]

B > B+

I believe Kommo-o rose earlier to be on par with Haxorus as a Dragon Dancer, but its versatility should put it at least at B+. Haxorus no doubt is the king at shredding stall, but Kommo-o threatens most balance/BO builds after a single boost. A set of Outrage/Drain Punch (or Close Combat)/Ice Punch takes care of most staples on these types of builds while also being extremely resilient to all forms of priority unlike its other Dragon counterparts. Bulky pokemon like Gliscor, Sylveon, Swampert and Krookodile turn into setup fodder while they can't even trade damage with you since you can recover it back with Drain Punch. If need be you could even tank a super effective hit off something like Aero. Most teams end up relying on Scarf Hydreigon/Latias to revenge kill leaving an exploitable -2 Dragon or Latias locked into Psychic.

A mixed SR set with Close Combat/Clanging Scales/filler is also really hard to switch into without a Fairy while also providing a great offensive Breloom switch in w/Overcoat + Mega Manectric check. One of the cool things about Kommo-o is all three abilities are viable, and your opponent needs to assume you have any one of them unless their hand is forced (lest they waste a turn using Shadow Ball/Roar/Hyper Voice while you DD).

Side note, I think we are overhyping Rhyperior just a bit. Rock typing is cool and all, but a simple HP Grass adaptation is enough to turn the slot into a liability. It lacks the recovery Hippowdon brings and the overall better typing Swampert has. Being weak to Ground and Fighting is huge since the former two rockers can soft check a bunch of stuff like Krook/Cobalion/Infernape that Rhyperior cannot.

 

[Nightingales]

View attachment 119206
B > B+

I believe Kommo-o rose earlier to be on par with Haxorus as a Dragon Dancer, but its versatility should put it at least at B+. Haxorus no doubt is the king at shredding stall, but Kommo-o threatens most balance/BO builds after a single boost. A set of Outrage/Drain Punch (or Close Combat)/Ice Punch takes care of most staples on these types of builds while also being extremely resilient to all forms of priority unlike its other Dragon counterparts. Bulky pokemon like Gliscor, Sylveon, Swampert and Krookodile turn into setup fodder while they can't even trade damage with you since you can recover it back with Drain Punch. If need be you could even tank a super effective hit off something like Aero. Most teams end up relying on Scarf Hydreigon/Latias to revenge kill leaving an exploitable -2 Dragon or Latias locked into Psychic.

A mixed SR set with Close Combat/Clanging Scales/filler is also really hard to switch into without a Fairy while also providing a great offensive Breloom switch in w/Overcoat + Mega Manectric check. One of the cool things about Kommo-o is all three abilities are viable, and your opponent needs to assume you have any one of them unless their hand is forced (lest they waste a turn using Shadow Ball/Roar/Hyper Voice while you DD).

Side note, I think we are overhyping Rhyperior just a bit. Rock typing is cool and all, but a simple HP Grass adaptation is enough to turn the slot into a liability. It lacks the recovery Hippowdon brings and the overall better typing Swampert has. Being weak to Ground and Fighting is huge since the former two rockers can soft check a bunch of stuff like Krook/Cobalion/Infernape that Rhyperior cannot.

I would like to mention that on Kommo-o, Automotize is absolutely lethal as a wincon. I’ve been running z-focus blast, but you can basically run whatever coverage you need to beat Faeries and this thing will mop up just about any weakened teams, while also having the advantage of beating Scarf Latias and Hydreigon after a boost. Raise this thing.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

View attachment 119206
B > B+

I believe Kommo-o rose earlier to be on par with Haxorus as a Dragon Dancer, but its versatility should put it at least at B+. Haxorus no doubt is the king at shredding stall, but Kommo-o threatens most balance/BO builds after a single boost. A set of Outrage/Drain Punch (or Close Combat)/Ice Punch takes care of most staples on these types of builds while also being extremely resilient to all forms of priority unlike its other Dragon counterparts. Bulky pokemon like Gliscor, Sylveon, Swampert and Krookodile turn into setup fodder while they can't even trade damage with you since you can recover it back with Drain Punch. If need be you could even tank a super effective hit off something like Aero. Most teams end up relying on Scarf Hydreigon/Latias to revenge kill leaving an exploitable -2 Dragon or Latias locked into Psychic.

A mixed SR set with Close Combat/Clanging Scales/filler is also really hard to switch into without a Fairy while also providing a great offensive Breloom switch in w/Overcoat + Mega Manectric check. One of the cool things about Kommo-o is all three abilities are viable, and your opponent needs to assume you have any one of them unless their hand is forced (lest they waste a turn using Shadow Ball/Roar/Hyper Voice while you DD).

Side note, I think we are overhyping Rhyperior just a bit. Rock typing is cool and all, but a simple HP Grass adaptation is enough to turn the slot into a liability. It lacks the recovery Hippowdon brings and the overall better typing Swampert has. Being weak to Ground and Fighting is huge since the former two rockers can soft check a bunch of stuff like Krook/Cobalion/Infernape that Rhyperior cannot.

This man has the nerve to propose Kommo-O to go up a rank, and not even mention the terror that is the STAB spamming Specs set? With a number of coverage options in the vein of flash cannon, flamethrower, etc? But can also manage to fit sleep talk on the set for the currently very prevalent Breloom? Also not even mentioning the terror from god himself, Sub BD Kommo-O, which can win games on its own if unleashed at the right time and is one of the core members of most veil teams (While still being viable on some non-veil teams, unlike its BD bretheren) Or the SD set, which has tons of breaking power mixed with fairly reliable drain punch recovery?

Anyways uh yeah, I think Kommo-O could Rise to B+ on account of its wider movepool than Haxorus, versatility in both movesets and abilities adding a lot of unpredictability to it, and its overall superior MIXED breaking power. In addition to checking a lot of annoying stuff right now like Loom (By virtue of Sleep talk OR Overcoat) Or Hyper Voice fairies with Soundproof, or prevalent ghosts and Stakas being used to high hell right now with bulletproof, also being noticeably more durable than the other dragons in our current meta is another plus, as most non-fairy moves won't OHKO it without some kind of boost or choice item.

 

[Taptricity]

View attachment 119206
B > B+

I believe Kommo-o rose earlier to be on par with Haxorus as a Dragon Dancer, but its versatility should put it at least at B+. Haxorus no doubt is the king at shredding stall, but Kommo-o threatens most balance/BO builds after a single boost. A set of Outrage/Drain Punch (or Close Combat)/Ice Punch takes care of most staples on these types of builds while also being extremely resilient to all forms of priority unlike its other Dragon counterparts. Bulky pokemon like Gliscor, Sylveon, Swampert and Krookodile turn into setup fodder while they can't even trade damage with you since you can recover it back with Drain Punch. If need be you could even tank a super effective hit off something like Aero. Most teams end up relying on Scarf Hydreigon/Latias to revenge kill leaving an exploitable -2 Dragon or Latias locked into Psychic.

A mixed SR set with Close Combat/Clanging Scales/filler is also really hard to switch into without a Fairy while also providing a great offensive Breloom switch in w/Overcoat + Mega Manectric check. One of the cool things about Kommo-o is all three abilities are viable, and your opponent needs to assume you have any one of them unless their hand is forced (lest they waste a turn using Shadow Ball/Roar/Hyper Voice while you DD).

Side note, I think we are overhyping Rhyperior just a bit. Rock typing is cool and all, but a simple HP Grass adaptation is enough to turn the slot into a liability. It lacks the recovery Hippowdon brings and the overall better typing Swampert has. Being weak to Ground and Fighting is huge since the former two rockers can soft check a bunch of stuff like Krook/Cobalion/Infernape that Rhyperior cannot.

I agree with the Kommo-o rise. What really sets the mon apart from Haxorous is how unpredictable it can be with its large movepool and different abilities. It makes it really difficult to scout Kommo-o until you get set up on. Sub BD, Sub Salac, Specs, Mixed, regular Dragon Dance, or even Autotomize from an earlier post, Kommo-o has a great amount of viable sets that allow it to easily get in and sweep. With its abilities it can bluff that it's Bulletproof and then end up being Soundproof. Overcoat also prevents it from being sleep fodder to Breloom which can be very useful too. I can even argue that Kommo-o could rise to A- but that probably won't happen unless Haxorous rises to B+ too.

Another mon that I think should rise:

Mega Aggron A----->A+
Perhaps this is a bit controversial, but I believe that Mega Aggron should rise. With Mega Aggron, you're most of the time guaranteed to get rocks up just because of the sheer bulk this mon possesses. Then we have Filter which lets this mon just laugh at super effective attacks. It can be chipped down since it doesn't have recovery so wish support is needed but that's very easy with Sylveon which forms one of the best defensive cores in UU with Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron really apprieciates Mega Mane falling out of favor too. Overall I feel like Mega Aggron has become meta defining enough for it to rise with Sylveon also rising to A- just because of how well the two mons complement each other but I'll argue for Sylveon's placement another time.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Alright so its time for another Smallsmallrose Text wall

Pyukumuku to C+
This mon has been replying quite well to meta trends, as offensive waters have been rising up ever since Azu's departure. Mons like Mega Blastoise, Feraligatr, Mega Sharpedo, and Crawdaunt have all been re-inserting themselves into the current meta. Combine this with the continued usage of mons like Starmie and Volcanion, and the rise of offensive variants for Swampert and Seismitoad, there's a lot of water-based firepower going around right now. And Pyukumuku has been replying much better to it than its equally oblivious cousin Quagsire. With its much higher special defense than Quagsire, and its actual resistance to the type, its a much better check to water type wallbreakers and stallbreakers, and water types in general. I've also been exploring a number of different options with Pyukumuku, as it actually has a lot of options for a mon who's main method of attack is toxic. Gastro Acid to check Gliscor and the poison heal Breloom, as well as remove generally annoying abilities like Togekiss' serene grace and Haxorus' mold breaker, lowering the stallbreaking potential of those mons. It also has Block to trap and remove certain threats, or even just gain free picks vs opposing stalls. It also has Counter to punish mons who wish to break Pyukumuku with raw power like Haxorus and Heracross. Pyukumuku has some really solid matchups against some common stallbreakers that Quagsire fails to handle well, and overall has some unexplored versatility that Quagsire doesn't. And whenever I make a team with a stallbreaker that beats Quagsire, I sometimes backpedal, as I remember that it doesn't beat this mon too, and have to return to builder. Sure, a lack of electric immunity sucks sometimes, but in trade it actually handles grasses a lot better than Quagsire, and has a better matchup against a lot of stallbreakers like Lucario and Pidgeot Mega that can muscle past Quag with strong special attacks. Being an option over Quagsire on stall and having unique options adds to Stall's flexibility even more, This in addition to how certain meta trends favor it, have made me really like this mon lately, even in the face of Quagsire. As such, I think it should be ranked closer to Quagsire to reflect how it handles the meta over it, and should move up to C+


EDIT: I forgot to mention Block Spite (Thank you Juuno) which that and regular block toxic are massive boons against opposing stalls where as Quagsire is just kinda there in stall v stall matchups.

Also part of this edit, I AGREE with the Diancie nom to C, as it checks a number of extremely threatening pokemon in this meta, it has both offensive and defensive options in either just running a spdef set to maximize itself as a Dragon/Flying check, or it can still check these mons while maximizing its offense with specs or Offensive Trick Room (The offensive sets are my personal favorite, as they can make Diancie into an exceptionally threatening wallbreaker or cleaner that still checks what it needs to.) There's a few other neat things about it too. Special rock types are a rarity, as the only other mon occupying that niche in UU is Nihilego, who is debateably more frail than our friend Diancie (Mostly physically, the debate only comes when comparing their applications as special walls.) And being a fairy type that really doesn't care about Z-Belch Hydra or poison types like A-muk in general is a nice added bonus. Hell, Diancie even checks some of the poison types that normally threaten fairies if its earth power, or has a move to hit their secondary type super effective. Being a rock that isn't scared of Fighting STAB is a nice bonus too. As it can discourage mons like Kommo-O and Terrak in situations they would have forced out say, a Rhyperior or Stakataka. Having a handful of decent offensive sets and a good defensive set, its unique typing that lets it check dragons and flyings, as well as not be bothered by certain checks to rocks and fairies, are grounds for Diancie to really carve a niche for itself, and rise up to C.

 

[Jade]

hello, i would like to nom:

from UR to at least C.

now, I am aware that diancie has many flaws, so I will address the negative aspects of it first. obviously the omnipresence of the lando-t of uu in scizor does not help its case. its rock/fairy typing, while a blessing for some teams checking flying-, fire-, and dark-types, leaves it vulnerable to common offensive types in grass-, ground-, and the aforementioned scizor’s infamous bullet punch. It can also sometimes find itself being strapped for moveslots, wanting to run heal bell (if normalium z for that juicy 100% recovery), hidden hower fire, and toxic. heck, it can even want to run niche options such as earth power for catching unevolved aggron. another flaw that i already mentioned is the fact that its only recovery is z-heal bell, so it can find itself getting chipped relatively easily. diancie’s flaws (the ones i can think of at least) end here. now onto the positives!

one of the major aspects of diancie is being a bird check and a hydreigon check (non-flash cannon) in one slot. a rocker that beats hydreigon is very merciful for many teams. the set i use the most is a specially defensive set with moonblast/diamond storm/stealth rock/toxic. the first 3 moves are a staple on any non-offensive diancie set. the fourth move is customizeable, but i prefer toxic for bulky grounds and waters. you might be asking why to use this over rhyperior, but it has several things over it. diancie:

*is not 4x weak to grass or water

*checks birds better: 252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 87-102 (28.6 - 33.5%) -- 96.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery vs 252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 183-216 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

* checks hydreigon and latias better

*has semi-reliable recovery in z-heal bell if you decide to use that

*is not straight ohkoed by aqua tail aerodactyl after minimal chip

an underrated set brought to me by Smallsmallrose is choice specs. despite seeming bad at first, it can actually act as a decent lure for bulky ground types and water types that think they can switch in. heck, it doesn’t even need hidden power fire for scizor, as choice specs power gem does a lot to scizor, even having a chance to ohko 4 hp scizor. also unlike defensive diancie, it is not set up bait for cm latias on the switch in.

specs calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 225-265 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie Moonblast vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 280-330 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 214-253 (76.1 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 228-270 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 168-198 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

there are also other options for our favorite fairy rock such as offensive trick room. however, i mainly wanted to cover defensive and specs in this nom. i also have 2 1600 ladder replays, although im not sure if they are exactly the best.

in the first replay, diancie provides amazing utility: consistently switching into moltres and latias as well as keeping up rocks: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-756595314

in the second replay, diancie consistently checks chandelure and latias while providing rocks. while chandelure was the obvious mvp, diancie would have swept late-game without the forfeit at the end. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-756582623

although i lost to some misplays, diancie still did exceptional. it pressured hydreigon to click u-turn every time in fear of rocks, which rose couldn't afford with a rotom defogger. the fact that diancie is pressuring this hydreigon enough to always click u-turn no matter what is certainly saying something about its utility. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-756750277

diancie manages to chip tentacruel in order to sweep-late game. it checked hydreigon, bewear, and moltres throughout the game and set up rocks against both of wuhoo's main hazard removers. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-757052717

thanks for reading this huge text wall. tl;dr diancie should rise to c at the minimum due to being a rocker that checks hydreigon, providing useful utility, and surprising power with choice specs. its rock/fairy typing, while leaving it vulnerable to common offensive types, also allows it to check dragon-, dark-, and flying-types, which can be a blessing for some teams.

i also agree with the post above on pyukumuku. it has a better matchup against opposing stall than quagsire with block + toxic or block + spite and handles things like lucario, crawdaunt, mega sharpedo, and even sd gliscor if you are running gastro acid. rose basically said all that has been needed to say.

 

[Bebo]

I'm nominating Bronzong C+ to B-

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Protect/Gyroball
- Psywave

Alright so I have no clue how this mon is possibly in C+ It's an amazing rocker that doesnt get worn down by toxic and is immune to ground so It could pretty much get rocks on every single rocker 1v1 and probably threaten it out with a toxic unless its a m-aggron which cant touch you because of Bronzong's amazing ability Levitate. Earthquake and Hp fire are both options to run instead of protect eq to lure muk which is the reason I'm not nomming this to B and hp fire to catch scizor. Bronzong's bulk is also really good having 116 defense and 116 spdef being able to take 2 specs pumps from specs prim and it doesnt even resist (broken mon). Also this mon is probably in my opinion the BEST latias check as it doesnt get bopped by z thunder like every single other steel type in the tier sure +1 z thunder might hurt zong a bit, but you could just toxic/tect stall it.

Here are a shit ton of mons that are used quite a bit that zong checks. M-altaria (gets gyroballed / toxiced and fireblast doesnt even 2hko) M-aero which gets ohkod by gyroball and must have crunch to do really anything. Nihilego cant even do anything vs zong I would even call it a counter to nihilego. Nidoking unless its fireblast. Togekiss unless it just flinches the shit out of you which is very possible. Sylveon cant even touch you and you just toxic spam it till it runs out of healbell. You beat hippo no matter what as I said earlier you are immune to both ground moves and toxic. Latias which in my opinion is a top 3 mon for me (gyroball or toxic/tect stall it) also z thunder really doesnt do much. Kyurem which is such a big ass threat I've been using specs kyurem on the ladder lately and pretty much it destroys every team and I think bronzong would probably be one of its best checks not counting blissey as its immune to earthpower and Icebeam doesnt do much. Alright I think thats enough for the checks on to the next paragraph!

So if you look at C+ you just see a bunch of shit mons that are never used and Bronzong is easily the best mon in that pool. Bronzong might not have the best usage in UUPL but It has a very solid winrate of 80%. Having more usage than almost every single mon in C+ and some mons in B-. Bronzong's niche is bigger than most of C+ and some of B-'s and I think I typed enough to show you why I think it should rise!

On to the calcs!

+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 175-206 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 171-202 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

protect and its a 3hko

252+ SpA Altaria-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 152-180 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 61-72 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

and thats all my reasonings for bronzong to rise bop!

edit: beware of the rare crunch m-aero :]

another edit : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-373836 here's an amazing replay of eyan

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
Thanks to everyone that posted for their input! We have a lot changes this time around :) Due to the council's voting for changes being held prior to a few nominations in this thread being made, Diancie, Pyukumuku, and Bronzong will all be voted on in time for the next update. For now, I hope you enjoy the changes! Here's what happened:

Rises

A -> A+

A- -> A

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

B- -> B

C -> C+

C -> C+

C- -> C

C- -> C

UR -> C-

Drops

B -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C

C+ -> C-

C -> C-

C- -> UR

C- -> UR

C- -> UR

Reasons for Rises

Togekiss’s performances in ULT and UUPL are truly showcasing how much it flourishes in the current metagame, and an A+ ranking is perfectly reflective of its current worth. Its adaptability has been seen in the several recent set innovations, which most notably include its Fightinium Z set, that we’ve seen in previous weeks, while the usefulness of its defensive typing, its splashability, and its versatility are all the most notable they’ve ever been in a tier dominated by Serperior and Breloom. Togekiss is just a very flexible threat right now with a lot of prowess both offensively and defensively, and rivaling Mega Altaria as the best Fairy-type available is best reflected with a rise to the highest A rank.

Krookodile has also been showcasing its worth in tournament play recently, with astonishingly high accumulative usage and an impressive win rate in UUPL. The two things working against it most right now are the presences of Serperior and Breloom, though these flaws are adequately offset by the insane amount of both offensive and defensive utility Krookodile provides teams with. An Electric immunity, Intimidate, Knock Off, Pursuit, Earthquake, Stealth Rock, and better offensive presence than its competition all accumulate to make Krookodile an extremely considerable teambuilding tool due to how much it can provide your team with in just one slot. Its ease of role compression is really important in a metagame where most builders are strapped for team slots, and due to this placement in A best reflects its place in current UU.

Gengar may be barely ahead of Chandelure in the race for best Ghost-type, though a shared rank still most adequately reflects their compared viability, which is why Chandelure is rising from B+. It’s a very strong pick right now considering that in addition to possessing the tools necessary to revenge kill several of the tier’s most defining sweepers, it’s also finding ways around its weaknesses in the form of frequently running utility options like Will-o-Wisp on more of its sets. The current use of its offensive typing is also at an all-time high, given that its secondary Ghost-typing allows it to more easily power through traditional Fire-type resists, like Rhyperior, Latias, and Moltres, than its main competitors.

Kyurem is rising due to the strength of its Choice Specs set, which has recently gained more traction and has been acknowledged as one of the most devastating special wallbreaking sets in the tier. Defensive counterplay is essentially limited to just Blissey and Primarina due to Kyurem’s fantastic STAB coverage alongside Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire, though in addition to being an offensive behemoth in general it appreciates the recently increased viability of several Grass-, Ground-, and Flying-types, which only strengthens the argument for a rise.

Kommo-o’s strength in the current metagame lies in its offensive versatility, which is thanks to all of its abilities having current viability and its diverse physical and special movepools. Swords Dance and Dragon Dance sets heavily threaten the vast majority of bulky offense and balance teams, while its Autotomize and Choice Specs sets picking up more recent usage only adds to its overall versatility. Kommo-o is well ahead of the other Pokemon in B and takes advantage of its unpredictability by picking up at least one kill in nearly every match.

Rhyperior’s advantages over its Ground-type competition are still pronounced enough to justify further rising, which is why it’s moving up to B+. In a metagame that values role compression as much as current UU, Rhyperior’s ability to check Mega Manectric and Flying-types, set Stealth Rock reliably, and offensively pressure top threats is valuable enough to move it up another rank, though what keeps it from breaking into the A rankings is its vulnerability to a few currently popular Pokemon in the metagame, such as Serperior, Breloom, Scizor, and the tier’s many Water-types.

Tsareena is becoming more of an established threat as metagame trends continue to favor it, and a rise to B adequately reflects the pressure it currently puts on the metagame with both its Choice Band and Meadow Plate sets. In addition to soft checking Breloom, it preys on popular types in Ground and Water while covering most of its weaknesses quite nicely through either just the sheer power of its STAB Power Whip or its coverage. Overall, Tsareena is a very real threat that has carved a very defined niche for itself, which B best reflects.

Chesnaught seems to fluctuate between being decent and mediocre, though right now it has a solid niche as a reliable defensive check to Breloom. In addition to this, a few other metagame trends, such as the current viability of Water- and Ground-types and the consistent usage of Steel-types like Mega Aggron and Cobalion, are more recently working in its favor. It currently has enough use to reasonably find placement in C+ again, despite having only recently dropped.

Seismitoad’s offensive and defensive sets both have significant advantages over its Ground- and Water-type competitors, and are proving to be useful enough to rationalize a rise from C. It has established more of a niche for itself in the metagame through making the most of its versatility in recent weeks, and this in addition to having more proven consistency than the rest of C is enough for an upgrade in rank.

Gastrodon has seen a slight uptick in usage in ladder play as a fairly potent mixed wall. Its ability to check a plethora of offensive threats, including Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, Nidoking, and Volcanion, in one slot gives it good synergy alongside defensive Stealth Rock setters like Mega Aggron and Empoleon, allowing it to fit fairly comfortably on a few balanced builds. It may not appreciate the increased viability of Grass-types, though it equally enjoys the surge in popularity of Fire- and Water-types, and overall due to the current use of its positive traits it is justified in rising.

Roserade isn’t really close to being a mainstream threat, though enjoying the same benefits as a lot of other Grass-types makes rising from C- reasonable for the time being. It often can’t reliably switch into a lot of attacks, though once in it does a fantastic job of pressuring the many popular defensive Ground- and Water-types of the tier in addition to taking on a lot of traditional Grass-resists, like Moltres, Mega Altaria, and Cobalion, with its secondary Poison-typing and its access to a Technician-boosted Hidden Power Fire. It also has interesting utility options in the forms of Sleep Powder and Spikes, and overall is potent enough offensively to reasonably reside in C.

Mega Glalie has a decent niche as an offensive Spikes setter and as probably the best physically offensive Ice-type the tier has to offer. Although it almost entirely lacks defensive utility, it can power through the majority of the tier’s defoggers with its STAB attacks alone while also luring in and denting most Water-types thanks to Freeze-Dry. It has a strong matchup against a lot of Stall builds as well, and despite its high opportunity cost, a ranking is warranted at this stage due to its proven niche and usefulness.

Reasons for Drops

Metagame trends have recently worked against Salazzle enough for its abilities as a sweeper and wallbreaker to have noticeably decreased in consistency. It’s hard fitting both a Fire- and Poison-type on a team while still having to account for Scizor and Breloom due to Salazzle’s awful bulk, though it also notably struggles to circumvent its weaknesses to a lot of rising or already popular threats, such as Chandelure, Krookodile, Tentacruel, and the majority of the tier’s Choice Scarf users. While still good at its role, its decreased effectiveness can’t be denied and is resulting in a drop from B.

Mega Sceptile is fairly hard to use right now due to the metagame only continuing to work against it. The Water-types it should theoretically switch into and beat can often beat it (this is exemplified by Swampert and Tentacruel more frequently running Ice- and Poison-type attacks respectively), while its four-moveslot syndrome is only continuing to intensify. Right now, there are just plenty of other Grass-types that are more considerable as picks on teams due to better defensive utility, more power, or simply better coverage.

Magneton has a very defined niche as a trapper thanks to Scizor’s omnipresence. However, as many users in the thread pointed out, it just doesn’t fulfill its role reliably at all given that aside from Klefki, Empoleon, and at times Scizor, it has trouble trapping any other relevant Steel-type without sustaining major damage in the process. Its lacking defensive utility gives it significant opportunity cost in comparison to the majority of the tier’s other Steel- and Electric-types, which hinders teambuilding and further contributes to its drop. However, C+ is currently fair in comparison to either C or C- due to its capabilities both being unique from any other Pokemon and important enough to justify use more often than C-ranked Pokemon like Mienshao and Zygarde-10%.

Alolan Marowak is just very hard to justify using at this stage of the metagame, which is why it’s dropping two whole subranks and could potentially drop further unless its viability is adequately defended. Its good STAB coverage, fantastic power, and access to Lightning Rod are traits that are all immediately offset by its reliance on Thick Club, poor defensive typing for a slow wallbreaker, and most of all its simply terrible Speed tier, which despite its typing keeps it from functioning as a reliable check to either Scizor or Breloom at all. It’s just not a good Pokemon right now and its power is barely worth all of the support it will require in order to make any impact in a match whatsoever.

This drop wasn’t discussed in the thread but like a lot of what’s dropping, Mega Abomasnow probably could’ve reasonably dropped a long time ago. It’s too often outperformed as a Grass-type sweeper with priority by Breloom, can’t even function as a Spore absorber given its terrible Speed and typing, and due to said typing and Speed, it is horribly easy to offensively pressure. It just requires too much support to do its job and its worth is best represented in C- at this point, especially considering Mega Glalie is beginning to emerge as a worthy physical Ice-type competitor.

Hoopa is dropping again for reasons similar to those that were presented the last time it dropped, which include its lacking usage keeping it from really being a proven threat and its terrible defensive utility hindering it greatly in a tier full of Pursuit and powerful offensive threats that outspeed and KO it. It’s just very hard for Hoopa to get its job done and while it isn’t bad enough to unrank entirely, it certainly is on the cusp of viability, as a C- ranking would suggest.

These Pokemon were all removed from the rankings entirely due to having niches yet being too suboptimal of picks to justify frequent usage. Cloyster can barely find opportunities to set up at all, but it is also just outperformed in its role by Barbaracle due to its lacking matchup against the majority of team archetypes as a result of its established defensive and offensive counterplay. Honchkrow was a bit of a controversial topic in the thread these past couple weeks, though it just suffers too much on account of its frailty, poor Speed, and severe longevity issues to make its wallbreaking prowess often worth finding room on a team for. Lastly, Lycanroc-Dusk is too often outclassed in its role by Mega Aerodactyl and Terrakion to justify use, mostly due to its absolutely terrible defensive utility, lacking power, and limited coverage, which are all disadvantages that offset its few unique tools.

Rejected Nominations and Discussion Points

Gengar A- -> B+
Gengar may not love the presence of Pursuit or Choice Scarf users like Latias or Hydreigon. However, it’s proven especially in recent tournament play that A- is exactly where it should be on account of its offensive versatility and adaptability. The innovation of sets like Hypnosis + Hex and Substitute + Fightinium Z highlights that it can work around the metagame’s adaptations to it, while its ability to pressure the several viable Grass-types alongside its great synergy with several other offensive Pokemon further bolsters the argument to stay in the A ranks.

Rotom-C B+ -> A-
Rotom-C has certainly increased its reliability as an offensive defogger in recent weeks, though it still has enough holding it back to justify staying in B+. It provides Dragon-types and the several rising Grass-types of the tier with free turns unless it wants to intensify its already bad four-moveslot syndrome, while it also can tend to run into longevity problems, which can be troublesome for an entry hazard remover. While still among the best Electric-types and specially offensive pivots available, it just doesn’t circumvent its many flaws well enough to fit into the A ranks.

Mega Steelix B- -> C+
Mega Steelix was voted to stay in B- by an overwhelming amount of the ranking council, likely due to the fact that its small tools over its competition accumulate quite nicely. The ability to check Latias more reliably than arguably any other Steel-type is one of its most valuable traits, though its interesting typing gives it a fair amount of unique resistance over both its Steel- and Ground-type competition, which allows it to check a unique set of Pokemon, including most Flying-types, Nihilego, and Mega Aggron. It’s overall a rather overlooked pick that brings a lot of interesting accumulative traits to the table, which is best reflected by staying above C+.

Reuniclus C+ -> B-
The consensus behind keeping Reuniclus in C+ is mostly that it requires way too much support to adequately perform without being dead weight in some matchups. This is all due to its lack of room for the coverage necessary to reasonably sweep without having several opposing Pokemon removed, its poor defensive typing for a bulky sweeper, its inability to really support its team that is already supporting it so heavily, and its vulnerability to a lot of top threats, including Hydreigon, Scizor, and Mega Sharpedo. While potent when the rest of its team covers its weaknesses, it’s just too overwhelming supporting Reuniclus for it to fit in any rank above C+.

Venomoth C+ -> C/C-
Venomoth still has the tools necessary to put in enough work to remain C+ for the time being. Sleep Powder is an amazing tool that it can capitalize on its access to in order to create its own setup opportunities, while the power of a +1 Savage Spin-Out is plenty capable of keeping it on the same level as Yanmega as a Tinted Lens user. While the metagame may be working against it in some ways, it also helps it in that the surge in Grass-type usage provides it with more setup opportunities, while popular defensive picks like Tentacruel and Mega Aggron easily fold to its boosted STAB attacks in time.

Discussion Points

Mega Slowbro A -> A-
Mega Slowbro still stands proudly as one of the most potent walls in the tier and as one of the better bulky sweepers around. However, its lacking usage and the metagame currently working against it more than before are both worth considering when evaluating its rank. It struggles to combat the surge in Grass-type popularity, as well as the increased presence of specially offensive Pokemon like Chandelure and Togekiss. Whether or not a drop is necessary for this defensive behemoth is worth putting into question, especially considering that a similar Pokemon in Suicune shares its current rank and is better adapting to what the metagame is throwing at it.

Mega Blastoise B- -> B
Mega Blastoise has more breathing room as a wallbreaker now that Azumarill isn’t around to abuse it for free turns, but it also enjoys metagame trends like matching up well against the several popular Fire- and Ground-types, Mega Manectric having slightly decreased viability, and the Grass-types rising in popularity often taking heavy damage from its Ice Beam if they try switching in. It still suffers competition from other Water-type wallbreakers with better overall attributes due to secondary typings, like Volcanion and Primarina, while it can also struggle fitting everything it’d like on a set. However, whether or not rising to B is fair is certainly worth discussing.

Rotom-H B- -> B
Rotom-H is establishing even more of a place for itself in the tier, and is being considered for a rise slightly closer to its main competitor in Rotom-C due to its notable meta-relevant advantages over the lawnmower. Checking Pokemon like Serperior, Mega Manectric, Moltres, and Mega Pidgeot in one slot is amazing considering that it also exerts a fairly impressive offensive presence with its ability to threaten a unique combination of threats with its offensive typing. However, its role compression may not fully justify rising to B given that its Stealth Rock weakness, paltry Speed, and vulnerability to Dragon-types and popular Pokemon in Nihilego and Rhyperior are all fairly troublesome if not adequately circumvented in teambuilding.

Mandibuzz B- -> C+
Mandibuzz is being brought up for a drop mostly because of its pretty significant lack of usage in either tournament play or high ladder. In theory it can utilize Overcoat and its access to Flying-type STAB attacks to function as a solid Breloom check, while also matching up well against the likes of Gengar, Krookodile, and Gliscor. However, it also is susceptible to metagame staples like Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Altaria, which makes its ideal rank worth talking about some.

Tornadus C+ -> B-
Tornadus is an interesting threat in that while it isn’t particularly popular, it has a lot to love as an offensive support Pokemon. Its fantastic coverage options in Knock Off, Superpower, and Heat Wave/Grass Knot if it can find room for them complement its powerful Flying-type STAB attacks very well, while the utility of Defog in addition to its offensive prowess is notable enough to bring rising into question. The biggest thing working against Tornadus is simply that it isn’t used very much, which may keep its notable advantages and weaknesses over its competition from being easily recognizable. However, what it brings to teams is severely under appreciated and is worth exploring more in depth.

Alolan Marowak C -> C-
This guy was actually voted by the ranking council to drop from B- all the way to C-, though I thought that it’d be fair allowing the community to weigh in on the decision a little more given that even dropping to C is a pretty big change. The consensus behind this potential drop is that Alolan Marowak is simply more trouble than it’s worth a lot of the time, with a terrible Speed tier preventing it from fulfilling a lot of what you’d put it on a team to do in practice without an arduous amount of support.

Shaymin UR -> C-
Shaymin’s Z-Celebrate set has had some proven use on Aurora Veil and other hyper offensive builds in ladder play, which is why potentially ranking it is worth talking about. While it struggles to fit all of its desired coverage onto a set, it is an extremely potent sweeper given its great bulk, power, and Speed after a boost and its strong matchup against some of the tier’s balanced and bulky offensive archetypes. Working against it is the presence of Pokemon like Scizor and Alolan Muk in addition to its fair amount of competition, though it brings unique assets to the table that may differentiate it enough to represent a defined and useful niche with a ranking.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Mega-Slowbro A > A-: Agree
There are a lot of things that make Mega-Bro more uncomfortable. Hydreigon, Rotom-Mow, Latias, Toxic, Togekiss, Mega-Manectric, Serperior, etc. Being weak to U-Turn and Volt Switch is quite horrific when you take the fact that a large portion of the tier has U-Turn/Volt Switch. Kyurem’s and Chandelure’s growing popularity leaves many of Mega-Bro’s weaknesses more noticeable.

Mega-Blastoise B- > B: Disagree
Ground types are highly prevalent in the tier and Mega-Toise can abuse them all. It can spin on and threaten our best rockers and scare off our spinblockers. But it has a few issues. It faces competition with Primarina as a water type Wallbreaker and Starmie as a spinner. Toiss notably suffers from 4-Move syndrome. If it doesn’t run Aura Sphere, it gives Mega-Sharpedo more breathing room, without Ice Beam, it loses to Grass types, without Dark Pulse, Starmie and Mega-Bro can wall it. The tool set it has is great, but both Primarina and Starmie already fulfill those roles already without using up a mega-slot.

Rotom-Heat B- > B: Disagree
Electric and Fire coverage is amazing, but that rock weakness kills it personally. Nearly none of our defoggers (except potentially Moltres) are weak to rocks in fact, they have recovery to heal chip damage. RotoHeat has to rely on Pain Split. Being an excellent check to Serperior and Scizor is worthy of a rise, but imo I don’t feel it is enough.

Mandibuzz B- > C+: Agree
The power creep didn’t do it any favors. The increased popularity of Rotom-Mow, Kyurem, and Togekiss is all but unbearable for Mandibuzz. Foul Play is a nice tool to patch up its passiveness, but many UU threats, especially Cobalion can take advantage of that. It can’t reliably check Serperior or Breloom unless it runs Brave Bird. Which means you give Latias and Gliscor free turns to setup (and I’m pretty sure you don’t want that.) Mandibuzz is an example of a power creep victim who’s future was RU has been foreseen.

Tornadus-I C+ > B-: Agree
I can agree that it is unique compared to most flying types. Normal flying type answers like Rhyperior and Stakataka won’t like getting hit by Grass Knot or Superpower. It’s speed tier brings it to a comfortable spot to outspeed Cobalion and Infernape and speed tie with Serperior. It’s one of the more underrated flying types imo.

Alolan-Marowak C > C-: Agree
It still is ridiculously hard to swap into but, that speed tier is good for nothing. It’s relevance in OU was due to the popularity of the UBs and revenging every Tapu in the tier (except Fini). But the meta found itself changing drastically making Alola-Wak less and less viable. Then it found a spot in UU where it was thought to be a solid check to Serperior, Cobalion, and Infernape. But soon Chandelure returned to popularity and it did what Alolan-Marowak wanted to do but was outshined by. It’s speed tier and weakness to rocks really messed up what could’ve been a top threat. Lightning Rod is still amazing.

I decided to skip Shaymin cause I haven’t used it enough to really agree or disagree with the nom. Here are a few more noms from me.

Decidueye B- > C+
As much as this is my favorite Pokémon, it’s rather mediocre. There is definitely no shortage of Swords Dance wallbreakers in the tier and can all do a better job than it, and don’t say it’s B- cause of its balance breaking potential. Well Tsareena exists which hits harder, isn’t weak to Pursuit or Knock Off, can actually beat Hydreigon and 2HKO a large portion of the tier, has better bulk and speed, and doesn’t need an Attack boost. Breloom and Azumarill’s disappearence are the biggest grim reapers to Decidueye. Breloom outclasses it nearly entirely. Can’t wait for you to dominate in NU Decidueye.

Nidoqueen C- > UR
There’s nothing justifying Nidoqueen over its royal counterpart (even though they can’t breed) besides the “better bulk”. Nidoking’s higher speed tier gives it an edge against Togekiss and even some Gliscors. Nidoqueen’s bulk is only +10 more than Nidoking’s HP, DFSE, and SPD.

Tsareena B > B+
Oh and speaking of queens and grass types, Tsareena has a lot of tools to shine rn. It’s a pivot, a spinner, and a wallbreaker in one slot. It can usually force switch ins on common water and ground types and then hit something with a base 120 ATK U-Turn with a Choice Band. It’s one of the top 5 best grass types in the tier alongside Rotom-Mow, Serperior, Breloom, and Celebi imo.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Mega-Slowbro A > A-: Agree
There are a lot of things that make Mega-Bro more uncomfortable. Hydreigon, Rotom-Mow, Latias, Toxic, Togekiss, Mega-Manectric, Serperior, etc. Being weak to U-Turn and Volt Switch is quite horrific when you take the fact that a large portion of the tier has U-Turn/Volt Switch. Kyurem’s and Chandelure’s growing popularity leaves many of Mega-Bro’s weaknesses more noticeable.

Mega-Blastoise B- > B: Disagree
Ground types are highly prevalent in the tier and Mega-Toise can abuse them all. It can spin on and threaten our best rockers and scare off our spinblockers. But it has a few issues. It faces competition with Primarina as a water type Wallbreaker and Starmie as a spinner. Toiss notably suffers from 4-Move syndrome. If it doesn’t run Aura Sphere, it gives Mega-Sharpedo more breathing room, without Ice Beam, it loses to Grass types, without Dark Pulse, Starmie and Mega-Bro can wall it. The tool set it has is great, but both Primarina and Starmie already fulfill those roles already without using up a mega-slot.

Rotom-Heat B- > B: Disagree
Electric and Fire coverage is amazing, but that rock weakness kills it personally. Nearly none of our defoggers (except potentially Moltres) are weak to rocks in fact, they have recovery to heal chip damage. RotoHeat has to rely on Pain Split. Being an excellent check to Serperior and Scizor is worthy of a rise, but imo I don’t feel it is enough.

Mandibuzz B- > C+: Agree
The power creep didn’t do it any favors. The increased popularity of Rotom-Mow, Kyurem, and Togekiss is all but unbearable for Mandibuzz. Foul Play is a nice tool to patch up its passiveness, but many UU threats, especially Cobalion can take advantage of that. It can’t reliably check Serperior or Breloom unless it runs Brave Bird. Which means you give Latias and Gliscor free turns to setup (and I’m pretty sure you don’t want that.) Mandibuzz is an example of a power creep victim who’s future was RU has been foreseen.

Tornadus-I C+ > B-: Agree
I can agree that it is unique compared to most flying types. Normal flying type answers like Rhyperior and Stakataka won’t like getting hit by Grass Knot or Superpower. It’s speed tier brings it to a comfortable spot to outspeed Cobalion and Infernape and speed tie with Serperior. It’s one of the more underrated flying types imo.

Alolan-Marowak C > C-: Agree
It still is ridiculously hard to swap into but, that speed tier is good for nothing. It’s relevance in OU was due to the popularity of the UBs and revenging every Tapu in the tier (except Fini). But the meta found itself changing drastically making Alola-Wak less and less viable. Then it found a spot in UU where it was thought to be a solid check to Serperior, Cobalion, and Infernape. But soon Chandelure returned to popularity and it did what Alolan-Marowak wanted to do but was outshined by. It’s speed tier and weakness to rocks really messed up what could’ve been a top threat. Lightning Rod is still amazing.

I decided to skip Shaymin cause I haven’t used it enough to really agree or disagree with the nom. Here are a few more noms from me.

Decidueye B- > C+
As much as this is my favorite Pokémon, it’s rather mediocre. There is definitely no shortage of Swords Dance wallbreakers in the tier and can all do a better job than it, and don’t say it’s B- cause of its balance breaking potential. Well Tsareena exists which hits harder, isn’t weak to Pursuit or Knock Off, can actually beat Hydreigon and 2HKO a large portion of the tier, has better bulk and speed, and doesn’t need an Attack boost. Breloom and Azumarill’s disappearence are the biggest grim reapers to Decidueye. Breloom outclasses it nearly entirely. Can’t wait for you to dominate in NU Decidueye.

Nidoqueen C- > UR
There’s nothing justifying Nidoqueen over its royal counterpart (even though they can’t breed) besides the “better bulk”. Nidoking’s higher speed tier gives it an edge against Togekiss and even some Gliscors. Nidoqueen’s bulk is only +10 more than Nidoking’s HP, DFSE, and SPD.

Tsareena B > B+
Oh and speaking of queens and grass types, Tsareena has a lot of tools to shine rn. It’s a pivot, a spinner, and a wallbreaker in one slot. It can usually force switch ins on common water and ground types and then hit something with a base 120 ATK U-Turn with a Choice Band. It’s one of the top 5 best grass types in the tier alongside Rotom-Mow, Serperior, Breloom, and Celebi imo.

I disagree with a couple points here, Nidoqueen's superior bulk is a major boon to it, as it lets Nidoqueen ACTUALLY CHECK mons like Mega Manectric, Cobalion, Terrakion, and others that straight up send the King to the damn moon. As well as let it actually beat mons that threaten King like Gliscor
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 170-202 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 297-351 (98 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Note, this is AOP, the stab that Nidoking "Resists")
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 360-425 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(And here's a band calc for your troubles)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 276-326 (91 - 107.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now lets side by side these with some Queen calcs. MIND YOU, You'd probably run more bulk than this if you were actually running Queen, too
76 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 254-300 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock You eat this guaranteed from full or one round of rocks and threaten ice beam
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Still a 2HKO, but MINIMAL bulk and/or Sludge actually mends this. As King's lowest roll is Queen's highest roll on this calc.
+2 252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Once again, Queen's highest roll is King's lowest roll. Mind you, Steelium would still kill this, but once again you'd also probably be running more bulk on your Queen
With 0 investment in any kind of bulk whatsoever, let alone the HP/defenses you'd actually run to use Nidoqueen as a defensive check, it is already taking some of King's LOWEST damage rolls as its HIGHEST possible rolls.
Basically: Queen is King, but fatter and thus more capable of role compression. For this, it should remain C-
And on Decidueye: I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Breloom HELPS Decidueye carve its niche in the Meta, rather than outright outclasses it.
Decidueye is a mach punch immunity and spore immunity in one, letting it be a very effective inherit check to Breloom, while also still being a stallbreaker. (These are traits shared by other grass types in the meta, like Tsareena for being both mach and sleep immune, and Celebi for being a Loom check that also stallbreaks, but Decidueye compresses their roles into one while also having a few tricks up its sleeve to set it aside from both of the above. like being a physical attacker compared to Celebi, or having ghost STAB compared to Tsar)
Also, Pursuit.....Really doesn't threaten Decidueye.
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Alomuk is blown the hell away
-1 252 Atk Decidueye Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock And Krook never gets a free in if it wants to retain its ability to check literally anything else afterward, and its also very pressed to click knock despite wanting to trap Decid, as if Decid boldly decides to stay in on hard pursuit, it kills Krook.
Aero is the best pursuit trapper for threatening Decid, but even that doesn't like swapping in, and can once again lose to Decid staying in on hard pursuit.
Decidueye isn't NEARLY as pursuit weak as its typing may get one to assume. Unless another weird pursuit trapper pops up, Decid can threaten most of our common pursuit trappers and beat them if they're misplayed. Its not the cookie cutter win that pursuit trappers get vs mons like say, Hoopa where they really have no method of beating the Pursuit trapper. Sure, knock is a thing, but two of the pursuit trappers I mentioned above are two of our tier's most prominent knock users, and I mention how Decidueye can straight up nuke Alomuk and at least get in Krook's head. Most of our other knock users, can't even KO Decidueye
76 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 124-146 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Or Decidueye has a method of fighting BACK against them
252 Atk Decidueye Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 294-348 (110.1 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As such, I believe there aren't enough grounds to drop it and Decidueye deserves to keep its B- ranking

 

[Taptricity]

Well time to share my opinions to strangers!

Mega Slowbro A>A-= Agree

Mega Slowbro just doesn't like the meta right now. Grass types are all over the place rn and while VoltTurn is never used, there are still a lot of U-turn and Volt Switch users in UU that easily chip away at Slowbro. At least it has nice recovery. Also, Mega Slowbro just can't deal with the special attacking powerhouses that are rising.

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this calc is with scarf Chandy
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 438-516 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Blastoise B->B= Disagree
Mega Toise has adapted well to metagame trends yes and Mega Blastoise's power is noticeable but ehhh. It doesn't have to compress rapid spinning into its wallbreaking power you could really just put a defogger on your team but when I see this thing I just say, "There are better options for a mega slot." Because really specs Primarina does the job of wallbreaking much better and you know, doesn't take up a mega slot. Mega Toise should stay where it is because it isn't the first special wallbreaker that's gonna come to your mind when team building and the mon is more situational compared to Prima. Mega Blastoise is just in a similar situation that Mega Steelix has: A mon that is eclipsed by another mon that can do its job so much better.

Rotom-Heat B->B= On the fence
I would be fine if Rotom Heat rose, but I also don't mind if it doesn't. Being able to freely switch in on a Mega Pidgeot is really nice and this mon has just been getting better since Azu leaving and grass types rising. Electric/Fire is a unique typing that lets it switch in on quite a few things. Levitate is also really cheese with every Rotom which allows it to switch in on Hippo and Gliscor since they usually don't carry any rock type moves. It's really just that stealth rock weakness that prevents it from going the extra mile along with it having no reliable recovery so it has to resort to Leftovers and Pain Split (lol). Every good defogger that's weak to rocks in the tier has some sort of reliable recovery (ROOST). It could use an Iapapa berry instead but that's just more risk less reward since it really requires you to play your Rotom Heat correctly to get that healing. It can really go either way with Rotom Heat.

Mandibuzz B->C+= Agree


My favorite word to describe bad mons: Underwhelming. Mandibuzz is too passive for its own good, and with volt switch becoming used more through Rotoms so that doesn't do it any favors. Mandibuzz hates special wallbreakers that are gaining in popularity and is also a nice juicy Taunt bait which prevents it from defogging and roosting up. It's only offensive pressure is Foul Play which is just mediocre against so many things. Like come on somehow Umbreon is less passive than you and it's only offensive pressure is Foul Play too. It does have Overcoat to block Breloom's spore but a lot carry rock tomb anyway. Idk how this mon stayed so long in B- and I can see it dropping further.

Alolan Marowak C>C-= Disagree
Damn, the council tore this mon a new one. I'm very well aware of A-Wak's flaws: Its sr weakness, its shitty defensive typing, its piss poor speed, it appearing to theoretically check mons that it can't at all in practice (we hardly have any fire types that can stop Scizor what), it easily getting chipped away with no reliable recovery, being forced to run THICC Club just so that it can do good damage, and its niche in Lightning Rod not being as good as it is anymore since electric types are falling out of favor.

Quite a bit but hear me out: A-Wak still has a niche. It can actually function well in an OTR team. Now I know the Trick Room isn't the best playstyle but it's a viable one and A-Wak can do pretty well in it. It's a good asset for OTR too since it can come in as a soft check for Breloom which is a mon that Trick Room struggles with. It's offensive power is also nothing to laugh at with THICC Club since Ghost/Fire is still a great offensive typing. I feel like that justifies enough of a niche for A-Wak to not be sent to the true depths of the UU vr. It's shit for the most part but not shit like the things in C-.

As for Tornadus and Shaymin, I haven't really seen them to form an opinion on the two. Tornadus does seem to be a very underrated mon imo though.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Blastoise-Mega to B: HARD AGREE. I think this mon has been given a lot of flack in this thread. It faces stiff competition from other water spinners and breakers, but I Disagree with the argument about it taking a mega slot. Unlike something like Mega Steelix, which faces clear competition from Mega Aggron as a bulky steel mega with exceptional phys def, or Mega Abomasnow which faces clear competition from Mega Glalie as an ice typed breaker with a way to match up vs waters, Megatoise has a niche which is almost completely unique at least among Mega slots. So I find the Mega Slot argument to be a moot point, as if you are using Mega Blastoise as your mega slot, you are likely using your mega slot for Mega Blast's specific niche. I also disagree with the mark about it being inferior to something like Prim or Starmie. Sure, there are other water breakers with SIMILAR niches (Volcanion being a Scizor check, Starmie being a spinner, and Prim having tons of raw power) But no one mon other than Mega Blastoise can do all 3 of these at once. And Role Compression is extremely vital in a meta where you have to build for so many things in a walloping 6 teamslots. And it also edges out the competition by compressing their roles without inheriting their weaknesses. (Blastoise is far less weak to pursuit trappers and bug types than Starmie, handles poison types like Tentacruel and steel types like Empoleon a lot better than Primarina, and doesn't have Volcanion's rock/stealth rocks weakness, or its ground weakness for that matter.) I think this keeps Blastoise very competitive in the face of these mons. They may have traits to set them aside from Blastoise, but they far from outclass it since Blastoise is a jack of ALL trades, which makes it being the master of none of them nothing more than a minor nitpick. Another argument is that Blastoise has 4MSS, I say it hardly has this as it only has 5 or so moves it wants to run. And it can mix and match these as it pleases, depending on the team you have it on. If you don't have a dependable Megashark check, run aura sphere. If you want to hit grasses harder, run ice beam. (But I'll be honest, dark pulse already hits a lot of them pretty hard, at times I find myself forgoing ice beam unless I'm exceptionally weak to grass types. Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse also hits most of our dragons between them both.) All in all, Mega-Blastoise is a very flexible pokemon that can take on the roles of many water types at once. And while it may not match up to certain mons in individual niches, its role compression makes it a fantastic teambuilding tool.

I also am still firm on ROTOM H TO B. However, I've also made a gigantic text wall on it HERE. So I won't go super in-depth on it. Its unique as both an electric mon and fire mon, fantastic flying check, fantastic grass check, checks Scizor, etc. etc. Move my oven friend up.

I don't have too many hot opinions on the other mons at the moment, I haven't been playing them or playing vs them enough to really formulate a proper opinion on the matter.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I disagree with a couple points here, Nidoqueen's superior bulk is a major boon to it, as it lets Nidoqueen ACTUALLY CHECK mons like Mega Manectric, Cobalion, Terrakion, and others that straight up send the King to the damn moon. As well as let it actually beat mons that threaten King like Gliscor
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 170-202 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 297-351 (98 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Note, this is AOP, the stab that Nidoking "Resists")
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 360-425 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(And here's a band calc for your troubles)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 276-326 (91 - 107.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now lets side by side these with some Queen calcs. MIND YOU, You'd probably run more bulk than this if you were actually running Queen, too
76 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 254-300 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock You eat this guaranteed from full or one round of rocks and threaten ice beam
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Still a 2HKO, but MINIMAL bulk and/or Sludge actually mends this. As King's lowest roll is Queen's highest roll on this calc.
+2 252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Once again, Queen's highest roll is King's lowest roll. Mind you, Steelium would still kill this, but once again you'd also probably be running more bulk on your Queen
With 0 investment in any kind of bulk whatsoever, let alone the HP/defenses you'd actually run to use Nidoqueen as a defensive check, it is already taking some of King's LOWEST damage rolls as its HIGHEST possible rolls.
Basically: Queen is King, but fatter and thus more capable of role compression. For this, it should remain C-
And on Decidueye: I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Breloom HELPS Decidueye carve its niche in the Meta, rather than outright outclasses it.
Decidueye is a mach punch immunity and spore immunity in one, letting it be a very effective inherit check to Breloom, while also still being a stallbreaker. (These are traits shared by other grass types in the meta, like Tsareena for being both mach and sleep immune, and Celebi for being a Loom check that also stallbreaks, but Decidueye compresses their roles into one while also having a few tricks up its sleeve to set it aside from both of the above. like being a physical attacker compared to Celebi, or having ghost STAB compared to Tsar)
Also, Pursuit.....Really doesn't threaten Decidueye.
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Alomuk is blown the hell away
-1 252 Atk Decidueye Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock And Krook never gets a free in if it wants to retain its ability to check literally anything else afterward, and its also very pressed to click knock despite wanting to trap Decid, as if Decid boldly decides to stay in on hard pursuit, it kills Krook.
Aero is the best pursuit trapper for threatening Decid, but even that doesn't like swapping in, and can once again lose to Decid staying in on hard pursuit.
Decidueye isn't NEARLY as pursuit weak as its typing may get one to assume. Unless another weird pursuit trapper pops up, Decid can threaten most of our common pursuit trappers and beat them if they're misplayed. Its not the cookie cutter win that pursuit trappers get vs mons like say, Hoopa where they really have no method of beating the Pursuit trapper. Sure, knock is a thing, but two of the pursuit trappers I mentioned above are two of our tier's most prominent knock users, and I mention how Decidueye can straight up nuke Alomuk and at least get in Krook's head. Most of our other knock users, can't even KO Decidueye
76 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 124-146 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Or Decidueye has a method of fighting BACK against them
252 Atk Decidueye Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 294-348 (110.1 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As such, I believe there aren't enough grounds to drop it and Decidueye deserves to keep its B- ranking

I disagree with some of your points. While checking breloom is nice for it, Breloom also makes Decidueye seems less desirable. Breloom has a 100% sleep inducing move, higher attack, stab priority, and also has SD and arguably a better stab combo. Also, it's not like Breloom always straight up loses to it either, some breloom run ganlon berry natural gift which blows decidueye away. Also,, no one use Gliscor as a check to decidueye, that's not why people use knock off on it. It may have ghost stab and a better ability to check breloom over Tsareena, but Tsareena's grass move is 30 BP higher than the comparably weak leaf blade, and Tsar has better physical bulk, attack, and a slight speed advantage. Tbh i would rather use tsar anyday over decid. Also the whole "pursuit doesn't bother Decidueye" simply isn't true. if Decidueye is weakened from the need to set up, which it likely is, and want's to switch out on something like krook, it just dies. imo drop it to C+ but i want to know what other think.

 

[Taptricity]

I disagree with some of your points. While checking breloom is nice for it, Breloom also makes Decidueye seems less desirable. Breloom has a 100% sleep inducing move, higher attack, stab priority, and also has SD and arguably a better stab combo. Also, it's not like Breloom always straight up loses to it either, some breloom run ganlon berry natural gift which blows decidueye away. Also,, no one use Gliscor as a check to decidueye, that's not why people use knock off on it. It may have ghost stab and a better ability to check breloom over Tsareena, but Tsareena's grass move is 30 BP higher than the comparably weak leaf blade, and Tsar has better physical bulk, attack, and a slight speed advantage. Tbh i would rather use tsar anyday over decid. Also the whole "pursuit doesn't bother Decidueye" simply isn't true. if Decidueye is weakened from the need to set up, which it likely is, and want's to switch out on something like krook, it just dies. imo drop it to C+ but i want to know what other think.

Alright so let's get the Decidueye chat going.

Keep Decidueye at B-
I don't know why you're pointing out that Breloom makes Decidueye less desirable. Decidueye has SD too so what's your point there? You can apply this same logic that you have to Tsareena. Tsareena also appears less desirable. After all, it can't put mons to sleep and can't boost its attack either so it has to run cb so that it can be used to its fullest potential. Tsareena and Decidueye are both viable because they have niches that Breloom doesn't have. Decidueye is able to set up on grass types and can be pretty threatening to fight against on slower builds. Being a physical ghost is a boon for Decidueye since most pursuit trappers are built to absorb attacks from Chandy and Gengar. Alomuk as seen above gets decimated by Sinister Arrow Raid and Krook is scared of Leaf Blade so it can only come to revenge kill. It's hard for Decidueye to set up and it has to run sucker punch to hit some moms yes, but when it does it can pull off an effective sweep as long as it's given the right support and that gives it more of a niche then something like Toxicroak who's another SD and Sucker Punch user. Also, Ganlon Bloom is way too niche for it's own good. You'll hardly ever see the set anyway so that shouldn't be a reason for Decidueye to drop. Your point on Gliscor was reasonable though.

 

[Freeroamer]

I really don’t care about Decidueye but saying fast Krook is unviable unless it’s scarf is just downright false. Even if there’s an argument not to run absolute max speed on non scarf sets, it will certainly be running a good amount and there’s no chance it’ll ever be running so little as to be outsped by base 70s. It’s always good to check the analyses on site or currently in progress in the analyses sub forum to avoid making points like this which discredit your argument.

I can agree with a Blastoise rise but I think spin on it is super overrated unless you’re running one of the old style Talonflame offenses, 4 attacks really emphasises Blastoise’s ability to break a lot of the common balance cores running around at present.

 

[Kink]

I disagree with some of your points. While checking breloom is nice for it, Breloom also makes Decidueye seems less desirable. Breloom has a 100% sleep inducing move, higher attack, stab priority, and also has SD and arguably a better stab combo. Also, it's not like Breloom always straight up loses to it either, some breloom run ganlon berry natural gift which blows decidueye away. Also,, no one use Gliscor as a check to decidueye, that's not why people use knock off on it. It may have ghost stab and a better ability to check breloom over Tsareena, but Tsareena's grass move is 30 BP higher than the comparably weak leaf blade, and Tsar has better physical bulk, attack, and a slight speed advantage. Tbh i would rather use tsar anyday over decid. Also the whole "pursuit doesn't bother Decidueye" simply isn't true. if Decidueye is weakened from the need to set up, which it likely is, and want's to switch out on something like krook, it just dies. imo drop it to C+ but i want to know what other think.

on hyper offense they actually compliment each other more than they compete with each other since powerful ghost stab will generally tackle all the things that breloom can't. Yes you'll have to account for the additional weaknesses but that's not too insanely hard to go. For example, you could do something like this:

example offensive team

Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Superpower
- Rock Tomb

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- U-turn

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

Decidueye @ Decidium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
- Roost / Substitute / Sucker Punch

no one is going to stand here and tell you that gengar isn't a good option in most cases where decideye is a good pick, but decidueye literally does things that gengar cannot in terms of minor survivability. This change in dynamic creates a change in how scenarios are played out. I've seen pif and others use this kind of building method to great success.

 

[Taptricity]

I really don’t care about Decidueye but saying fast Krook is unviable unless it’s scarf is just downright false. Even if there’s an argument not to run absolute max speed on non scarf sets, it will certainly be running a good amount and there’s no chance it’ll ever be running so little as to be outsped by base 70s. It’s always good to check the analyses on site or currently in progress in the analyses sub forum to avoid making points like this which discredit your argument.

I can agree with a Blastoise rise but I think spin on it is super overrated unless you’re running one of the old style Talonflame offenses, 4 attacks really emphasises Blastoise’s ability to break a lot of the common balance cores running around at present.

Thanks for the advice! I should've checked the analysis and spreads on Krook before I posted that part. I'll edit that out. I still have a bit to learn on the meta so thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Jade]

Hey, i'd like to make a quick nom:

Rise to C or C+

Silvally-Steel is an unexplored mon I feel. However, after testing with it, I believe that it should rise out of the depths of C-. It's an excellent pivot with Parting Shot, and is a good check to threats like Latias, Rotom-C, Primarina locked into Moonblast, Crobat, and more.

Set

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Defog
- Parting Shot

The EVs outspeed max speed positive base 60s, most notably Jolly Bewear and Timid Primarina. The remaining EVs are dumped into HP and Special Defense.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-759443343

This replay shows Steelvally at its finest: pivoting into Crobat and Rotom-C, providing Defog support allowing Blastoise to free up a moveslot, and checking Latias for Hydreigon to win late-game.

Overrall, I believe Silvally-Steel should rise out of C- for these reasons, as it is definitely better than most of C- and could even go as high as C+.

 

[AJ]

Blame Sage for this tiny avatar!

Consider this a post that looks into the future of UU’s meta in some of the points I make. Terrakion is the most threatening stall breaker in UU. Whether it is taunt, toxic, fightium z, or choice band, in my opinion there is no argument. Not only does terrakion terrify stall, it terrifies most bulky builds. Now here’s where we look into the future... Right now we are around 25 ish days from gliscor rising to OU. Considering that this month was a quick rise month, and then quick being suspended, gliscor didn’t rise despite its 4-5% OU usage. But we have to face the fact that it is leaving. A little closer is the end of the breloom suspect test. I certainly am in no place to make a guess on whether it is leaving over staying, but if it leaves terrakion is an even better place. Here is what will happen when gliscor rises, and I guarantee it will. With gliscor gone, choice band terrakion can freely click close combat. Now stall won’t let that happen, it will adapt and behind to use doublade or mega slowbro. But by being forced to use these Pokémon it will limit stall. For instance making slowbro the mega it will mean that mega aggron will not be on stall. That leaves a gap on the flying resist area. And so on and so on stall will begin having new staples and being more predictable. Terrakion can then be paired with hydreigon and others to pressure stall.

Ok now that terrakions position in the meta has been established I’ll just go over why terrakion is more threatening that other fighting types in the tier, however few there are. Terrakions attack stat is far greater than that of cobalion and infernape. It’s access to high power stabs that make it unresisted by any type makes it a terrifying threat. Unlike cobalion and infernape it has initial and immediate breaking power in most match ups. The fact that it learns quick attack gives it a few opportunities to beat breloom. Sets like life orb give it its move options while still having powerful attack and the ability to 2hko swampert and quagaire after stealth rock. Due to its mediocre bulky it is not frail in the slightest.

The few options of checking terrakion that come to mind are stalling out band attacks with alomomola, hard walling non band/life orb with quagsire, and mega slowbro. Pairing terrakion with toxic spikes or spikes makes it a Pokémon that is near impossible to stop defensively. With a clear weakness to offense terrakion struggles in some match ups.

Honestly I think terrakions infinitely powerful offensive pretense gives it enough reason to be A tier. The imminent rise of Pokémon that make its job difficult in some scenarios like breloom and gliscor make terrakion an even better choice on any team. I ask you to read over this post, evaluate my arguments, and reply. Thanks for reading!

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Blame Sage for this tiny avatar!

Consider this a post that looks into the future of UU’s meta in some of the points I make. Terrakion is the most threatening stall breaker in UU. Whether it is taunt, toxic, fightium z, or choice band, in my opinion there is no argument. Not only does terrakion terrify stall, it terrifies most bulky builds. Now here’s where we look into the future... Right now we are around 25 ish days from gliscor rising to OU. Considering that this month was a quick rise month, and then quick being suspended, gliscor didn’t rise despite its 4-5% OU usage. But we have to face the fact that it is leaving. A little closer is the end of the breloom suspect test. I certainly am in no place to make a guess on whether it is leaving over staying, but if it leaves terrakion is an even better place. Here is what will happen when gliscor rises, and I guarantee it will. With gliscor gone, choice band terrakion can freely click close combat. Now stall won’t let that happen, it will adapt and behind to use doublade or mega slowbro. But by being forced to use these Pokémon it will limit stall. For instance making slowbro the mega it will mean that mega aggron will not be on stall. That leaves a gap on the flying resist area. And so on and so on stall will begin having new staples and being more predictable. Terrakion can then be paired with hydreigon and others to pressure stall.

Ok now that terrakions position in the meta has been established I’ll just go over why terrakion is more threatening that other fighting types in the tier, however few there are. Terrakions attack stat is far greater than that of cobalion and infernape. It’s access to high power stabs that make it unresisted by any type makes it a terrifying threat. Unlike cobalion and infernape it has initial and immediate breaking power in most match ups. The fact that it learns quick attack gives it a few opportunities to beat breloom. Sets like life orb give it its move options while still having powerful attack and the ability to 2hko swampert and quagaire after stealth rock. Due to its mediocre bulky it is not frail in the slightest.

The few options of checking terrakion that come to mind are stalling out band attacks with alomomola, hard walling non band/life orb with quagsire, and mega slowbro. Pairing terrakion with toxic spikes or spikes makes it a Pokémon that is near impossible to stop defensively. With a clear weakness to offense terrakion struggles in some match ups.

Honestly I think terrakions infinitely powerful offensive pretense gives it enough reason to be A tier. The imminent rise of Pokémon that make its job difficult in some scenarios like breloom and gliscor make terrakion an even better choice on any team. I ask you to read over this post, evaluate my arguments, and reply. Thanks for reading!

While I do agree that Terrakion is one of the most dangerous Pokemon to come across in the tier, there are a couple of holes in your arguement. For one, I don't think Breloom is leaving anytime soon, despite a good chunk of the tier wanting it gone. Even if we took Breloom and Gliscor out of the equation, Scizor (the biggest threat in the tier bar none) still fucks Terrakion with Bullet Punch. It might not sound like much, but Scizor's dominance drags it down so much that it's not even funny. In addition, there are other options for a stallbreaker that are equally as threatening. Serperior can basically say fuck you to everything with Contrary Leaf Storm with a good (but not great) speed stat and Haxorus with its unrivaled power, great coverage, and a way better defensive typing that isn't weak to everything. Plus, your prediction about stall having to adapt could be completely bullshit and it turns into a hyper offensive hell where azelf and mega aero run amuk, and Terrakion's bad MU against offense doesn't help its case one bit. It's a good Pokemon, but held back by a few crippling weaknesses that keep it from A tier.

 

[pokemonisfun]

[11:39:02] [redacted]: hey someone go post on vr
[11:39:09] [redacted]: we only need one more post until new page ;)


Serperior should be considered for S rank because the AV set is incredible and totally underused. For evidence of its lack of use, look at the analysis where it has precisely 0 mentions. And as far as I know, it has no UUPL usage.

For evidence of its incredibleness, look no further than its matchups:

252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 164-194 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 258-306 (88.6 - 105.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 Dragon Pulse or Leaf Storm does sufficient damage to all of these Pokemon for a KO after Rocks plus a +0 Leaf Storm. Because the A+ ranking currently reflects all of Serperior's "normal" sets (Normalium Z, Meadow Plate, Subseed, Choice Scarf) which all have to be prepared for, and because the AV set beats some of Serperior's so called checks (see above), I think it should rise.

(PS, full credits to King UU for the set, I'm sure other people thought of it too but I first noticed him using it)