USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#1

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Welcome to the SM UU Viability Ranking Thread!

First off, I'd like to shout out pokeisfun for his tremendous work on the previous thread. I can only hope to make this thread half as good as your's, so thank you for your hard work!

As always, I'll be assisted a team of players with extensive knowledge of the current metagame, who will help me going through nominations made in this thread, as well as metagame shifts caused by drops and successful retests. This group consists of (in no real order):

So where do you come in? In light of our current rankings, it's the community's duty to refine them in order to more accurately reflect the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame. Because our guesses will come before much meaningful experience using Pokemon will have occurred, we can't be accurate enough without your help. Post about the Pokemon that you have experience with, but try not to let your personal bias oversell any Pokemon.

The S tier contains a select few metagame-defining Pokemon, the best of the best. The A tiers reflect on the Pokemon which are extremely effective but flawed in some aspects. The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams. Finally, the D rank will only include Pokemon that are tiered in UU by usage, but have no viable niche in the metagame. Furthermore, discussion on D-ranked Pokemon is NOT ALLOWED in this thread.

S Rank
Latias
Scizor

A+ Rank
Aerodactyl-Mega
Cobalion
Hydreigon
Manectric-Mega
Togekiss

A Rank
Aggron-Mega
Altaria-Mega
Infernape
Krookodile
Mamoswine
Primarina
Sharpedo-Mega
Suicune
Terrakion

A- Rank
Alomomola
Amoonguss
Blissey
Chandelure
Empoleon
Heracross
Hippowdon
Kommo-o
Kyurem
Moltres
Nihilego
Pidgeot-Mega
Starmie
Swampert
Tentacruel

B+ Rank
Azelf
Celebi
Crobat
Gengar
Klefki
Muk-Alola
Nidoking
Rotom-C
Slowbro-Mega
Stakataka
Sylveon
Volcanion

B Rank
Bronzong
Doublade
Haxorus
Houndoom-Mega
Necrozma
Raikou
Rhyperior
Rotom-H
Slowbro
Talonflame

B- Rank
Beedrill-Mega
Bewear
Blastoise-Mega
Crawdaunt
Florges
Jellicent
Lucario
Mantine
Quagsire
Snorlax
Tsareena

C+ Rank
Chesnaught
Cofagrigus
Darmanitan
Decidueye
Feraligatr
Magneton
Mandibuzz
Metagross
Reuniclus
Salazzle
Sceptile-Mega
Steelix-Mega
Tornadus
Toxicroak
Yanmega

C Rank
Absol-Mega
Aurorus
Araquanid
Barbaracle
Entei
Mienshao
Nidoqueen
Pyukumuku
Registeel
Roserade
Sandslash-Alola
Silvally-Steel
Umbreon
Venomoth
Zygarde-10%

C- Rank
Abomasnow-Mega
Cresselia
Diancie
Glalie-Mega
Hoopa
Linoone
Marowak-Alola
Palossand
Porygon2
Seismitoad
Uxie

D Rank - Don't discuss these Pokemon
Arcanine

Current Discussion Slate
Krookodile A -> A+
Terrakion A -> A+
Amoonguss A- -> A
Azelf B+ -> B
Sylveon B+ -> B
Rotom-H B -> B+
Tsareena B- -> B
Gligar UR -> C-
 
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Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#3
New Placements for Drops
Stakataka -> A
The immense power behind Stakataka's STAB Gyro Ball in addition to its access to good secondary STAB and Ground-type coverage makes it a fearsome offensive threat. Its OTR set with Rockium Z is capable of nearly neutering several offensive builds, and its typing, while certainly flawed, allows it to utilize its bulk to come in on Pokemon like Latias, Alolan Muk, and Scizor and set up Trick Room from there. Overall a very relevant threat in the metagame that's prowess as an OTR sweeper is adequately reflected with a starting A rank.

Gengar -> B+
A bit of a preliminary placement, though B+ is still nothing to scoff at. Gengar's high Special Attack, great typing, and good Speed allow it to threaten a decent portion of the metagame with its plethora of viable sets. It does, unfortunately, struggle to maintain top-tier status in a metagame dominated by Alolan Muk and Choice Scarf users like Infernape, Latias, and Hydreigon, which justifies placement just below the A rankings for now.

Marowak-Alola -> B
Alolan Marowak is a nasty wallbreaker and excels on the tier's newly popular Trick Room builds. However, its flaws are quite present and thus justify its current rank. It struggles to decide between abilities to run, has an inconvenient typing for a metagame filled with Pursuit and Stealth Rock, and is plagued by its Speed tier when not functioning under Trick Room. Still great offensively, but no enough so that its flaws don't prevent it from being higher.

Lycanroc-Dusk -> C
While not great, Lycanroc actually has a niche due to its higher Speed than Terrakion and its access to Swords Dance, STAB priority, and a signature Z-Move, which are all things that Mega Aerodactyl lacks. It can be a good middle ground between the two Rock-types that seemingly outclass it, with a set of SD/Accelerock/Stone Edge/Drill Run and Lycanium Z functioning well against offense and in the late-game in general. Again, not amazing, but has a few key tools that justify placement despite the presence of Terrakion and Mega Aerodactyl.

With the new drops out of the way, it's time to get to the update! This update was more or less some housekeeping done by myself, Pearl, and the council, so there's a lot to cover. So as not to take up a ton of space, here's everything that happened in a hide box:
S -> A+
A+ -> A
A -> A+
A -> A-
A -> A-
A- -> A
A- -> A
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> C-
B+ -> A-
B+ -> B
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> C-
B- -> C+
C+ -> B-
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C-
C -> C-

Since this is a lot of changes that we've seen occur, I'd like to really only go over some of the more notable drops that occurred within this next update. Here are some of the reasonings:
Azumarill is still an amazing Pokemon, though even with its several viable sets it doesn't hold the tier together as much as what else is currently in S rank. It's plenty defining, but simply not as much as Serperior, Scizor, Gliscor, or Latias, which is why a drop is justified.

Hydreigon is really really good right now. It's arguably the tier's most splashable scarfer available in addition to being one of the strongest breakers out there with Choice Specs. Its ability to both revenge kill and break half the tier between two very viable sets is currently enough to push it to the second highest available ranking, since it really is just amazing in the current meta.

Alolan Muk continues to pick up steam as a stop to essentially every special attacker in the tier barring Nidoking. It can be a great stop to extremely defining threats like Latias, Mega Manectric, Hydreigon, and the newly introduced Gengar, and is overall a Pokemon more worth putting on your team than anything it was formerly ranked with.

Ever since Rotom-W left the tier, several Pokemon that once kept Suicune in check, such as Seismitoad and Mega Sceptile, have decreased in viability. This has allowed Suicune to begin accumulating boosts more easily than before, while the increased usage of special attacking Mega Altaria and its ability to stall out Trick Room turns with its Protect set only add on to its increased worth in the tier.

Ever since the last tier shift, Aurora Veil, while still good, has faced significant competition as an offensive play style from Trick Room. This justifies the drops of the following Aurora Veil staples, though it is still a great and potentially ruthless archetype.

Mega Steelix has a lot more worth as an Electric-type check in a metagame without Rotom-W. Mega Manectric can still punish it, though its recent increase in viability should be reflected with a rise closer to Mega Aggron.

Rotom-C's decreased competition as an offensive defogger and Electric-type pivot in general helps it a lot, and its dual typing is still pretty handy for easily taking on both bulky Water- and Ground-types. In addition, it forms one of the tier's more potent VoltTurn cores with Mega Beedrill, and is overall just a solid pick that has its viability most adequately reflected in B.

Chesnaught has arguably more worth than ever due to its ability to check two of the metagame's three Trick Room staples. It can almost flawlessly handle Stakataka by virtue of Bulletproof, while its typing is also a big boon for naturally checking Crawdaunt, which all in all justifies a slight rise.


And now, we finally have the current discussion slate! (talk about a long post)
Seperior down to A+
Serperior is an amazing Pokemon in every sense of the word. However, this discussion point is more so on the basis of it not being as defining a force as what else is in S. It has very limited offensive and defensive counterplay and is among the tier's most centralizing threats, though whether or not it holds the tier together as much as Gliscor and Scizor is something worth considering.

Latias down to A+
Latias's influence in comparison to Gliscor and Scizor's is also something that the ranking council is currently putting into question. It's among the tier's most vicious sweepers and also has use as a truly fantastic Choice Scarf user. However, the increased prevalence of Alolan Muk and Mega Aggron in addition to the introduction of Stakataka, which heavily improved Trick Room's viability as a playstyle, are things worth discussing when it comes to ultimately determining just how top tier of a Pokemon Latias truly is.

Crobat down to B
Crobat is plagued with a general inability to combat Steel-types, which definitely hurts it in a metagame where Stakataka, Mega Aggron, and Klefki are all notable threats. Its ability to nearly counter Serperior mustn't go unnoticed, however, which keeps it from being a guaranteed drop and makes it something more worth discussing with the community.

Toxicroak down to C+
Suicune's increased influence could easily keep Toxicroak as high as B-, though it could also reasonably drop on account of the competition it faces. Infernape, Lucario, and Terrakion are all capable of generally outperforming Croak as Fighting-type boosters, and its inability to hurt Gliscor without running Ice Punch can also limit its versatility.

Entei down to C+
Entei continues to suffer from the burn nerf, and increasingly faces competition as a Fire-type breaker from the likes of Infernape, Darmanitan, and the newly introduced Alolan Marowak. Its signature move still possesses nice utility, though it may just not be enough to keep this thing above the C ranks anymore.

Thanks for reading, everyone! Hope that it'll be nothing but smooth sails for this new thread :) Remain kind in your responses and happy posting!
 
#4
new thread exciting!!

I guess I'll kick off discussion unless I get ninja'd

Serp down to A+, Disagree.
I feel like Serp is still such a big threat in the meta. Rotom-W leaving means one less Pokemon to setup on, as well as allowing for some mons previously cock-blocked to become more viable (think molters, talonflame etc) but it still kinda wrecks new drops as well as rest of meta
stakakakakakakak is 2KOed
Alowak is 2KOed after rocks
same with gengar^ and its outsped
lycanroc is whatever
Very good cores can still be built around serp and u basically have to consider it when team building otherwise you'll get streamrolled
(side note, Glare is a v good move if u can't predict bc no checks like being paralyzed, common checks like latias and scarf hydreigon also then get neutered for teammates to sweep later on)

Latias down to A+, kinda agree?
I feel like regular latias is a lot more manageable than its mega counterpart. slapping a scizor + like something faster is usually enough to play around it to a decent extent, obvs an unprepared team can and will still crumple to like a CM roost set or something but most teams should have a way to deal with it naturally with like chip/living its attacks. Don't get me wrong, still scary but I feel like more A+ material.

the rest of slate I have no opinion on really, but what I really wanted to ask was

what is bewear doing all the way up in B???????
what does it do??????
wat??????
 
#9
Bewear also stops choiced Hydreigon from clicking Dark Pulse as freely as it would like, which threatens setters not named Mega-Audino (esp if specs). Hydreigon also threatens the newly-dropped AlolaWak, taking any hit and clicking Dark Pulse, walls Mega Camel and can even run earth power for Stakataka (don’t). Bewear just hard-stops a huge offensive threat to TR, arguably the strongest HO style atm.
 
#10
Since Trick Room is arguably the strongest offensive archetype atm, I think that it should be reflected by ranking a couple of the best setters on the playstyle (Somewhere in the C ranks). Also, I think that Moltres is massively underrated at the moment and might be worthy of A- rank after using it a bit, but I'm still unsure about this as my opinion has been formed solely from personal experience.


Initial Ranking: C+
Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Lunar Dance

Cresselia is an invaluable member of Trick Room teams, being able to scare out threats like Hydreigon with Moonblast while also setting up Trick Room to support teammates. Its obscene bulk allows it to basically guarantee that it gets Trick Room up because Mental Herb stops Taunt and Lunar Dance allows you to maintain momentum and gives your Trick Room sweepers that are getting worn down throughout the game a second chance to sweep. Obviously, Cresselia is a very poor choice outside of Trick Room, but it's so essential to arguably the best offensive playstyle right now that it should be ranked. Personally, I would place it in C+ right now, but C rank definitely makes sense.


Initial Ranking: C-
Uxie @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Memento
- Magic Coat
- Trick Room

Uxie is another great mon on Trick Room teams, being able to get up rocks at lead while preventing opposing mons from hazard stacking with Magic Coat spam. Also, its ability to get up rooms quickly and instantly get in a threatening breaker for free with Memento, maintaining momentum and even offering setup opportunities and stacking up multiple KOs in a row. It's more of a suicide lead rather than anything else, but it's very important for setting up the early game to allow your Trick Room sweepers to bust past the enemy team. I'd probably put this thing in like C- rank since it's usually dead by turn 5 of the game whereas Cresselia provides utility and support for the team until the endgame when it needs to Lunar dance something up.
 
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esche

AKA Wang Fire
is a Tiering Contributor
#11
Latias down to A+: Disagree

Latias has all the qualities that make it an S rank Pokémon. Next to great offensive capabilities, solid defensive utility and an above average speed tier, it's versatility is unmatched in the tier, not only in regard of the different sets it successfully pulls off but also in the way these sets are easily customizable to fit whatever the needs of your team are. Calm Mind, all-out attacking, and even Choice Scarf and other utility variants, albeit to a lesser extent than the former two, are all capable to take advantage of top tier threats. Trouble with Azumarill? Run Thunderbolt or the Z-Thunder set, which also smacks most steels after a Calm Mind boost. Trouble with Scizor? HP Fire remains as one of Latias' greatest coverage options. Trouble with SpDef Gliscor? Ice Beam is here to save your day. I can't stress enough how valuable of an asset it is for Latias - and in the greater picture for the team it is on - to adapt itself and therefore to be able to effectively respond to its team's demands and metagame trends alike. I firmly believe this characteristic should be reflected in Latias' rank.

Yes, M-Aggron and Muk-A are great switch-ins to Latias, and thank goodness we have those (among others) to keep it in check. However, due to its incredible versatility Latias is still able to take advantage of most trends: Just remember LO EQ or Groundium-Z Latias to snipe all these pesky Muk-A, which is something I can see coming back with Stakataka's introduction to the tier. Heck, even Aggron-M takes a third of its health from LO Draco Meteor, and can be overwhelmed by the CM Z-Thunder set. Besides Muk-A, Pursuit users like Scizor, Aerodactyl-M, Krookodile and Metagross have the ability to remove it before it gets out of hand, but this has been a strategy ever since Latias' introduction to the tier and hasn't exactly prevented it from adapting.

Latias can never ever be disregarded when teambuilding in UU and you will have a tough time if you do. The latest metagame changes aren't nearly as detrimental enough to its viability as to justify a drop. Keep it in S.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#12
As much as I don’t want to blow my own trumpet and I realise you also had a lot of stuff to factor in making this, perfectly valid, metagame relevant arguments for Salazzle and Kommo to raise were made in the last thread and there was a lack of coherent arguments raised. Could we either see those rise or reasoning on why not please?
 
#13
New Placements for Drops
Lycanroc-Dusk -> C
While not great, Lycanroc actually has a niche due to its higher Speed than Terrakion and its access to Swords Dance, STAB priority, and a signature Z-Move, which are all things that Mega Aerodactyl lacks. It can be a good middle ground between the two Rock-types that seemingly outclass it, with a set of SD/Accelerock/Stone Edge/Drill Run and Lycanium Z functioning well against offense and in the late-game in general. Again, not amazing, but has a few key tools that justify placement despite the presence of Terrakion and Mega Aerodactyl.
As soon as Lycanrock-Dusk dropped I was interested in testing it. The fastest STAB priority user in the tier is a threat. With access to Swords Dance, amazing rock STAB's, and good coverage moves, namely Drill Run and Fire Fang, this pokemon is good. Now I wont push it and say Lycanrock deserves anything above B- tier, but it has enough viability for it to be C+ tier. The set I've been testing is a lead Lycanrock with SD/Accelerock/Stealth Rock/Drill Run and Focus Sash. Now this is actually very good on Hyper Offense. Having a hard hitting Pokemon with access to priority with a focus sash is great against sweepers like Stakataka. The ability to both set rocks and possibly be utilized as an end game life saver is definately useful. Tough claws is also very nice since it boosts all of Lycanrock's viable attacks.
Seperior down to A+
Serperior is an amazing Pokemon in every sense of the word. However, this discussion point is more so on the basis of it not being as defining a force as what else is in S. It has very limited offensive and defensive counterplay and is among the tier's most centralizing threats, though whether or not it holds the tier together as much as Gliscor and Scizor is something worth considering.
Gliscor and Scizor are both the staples of UU. You see them on every team because they are both offensively and defensively threatening. Now although Serperior doesn't offer as much bulk it is still an enormous threat. The fact that Serperior can set up while doing damage, Substitute and Leech Seed, and Defog gives it a great match up versus stall. This is the defining characteristic that, in my opinion, makes it deserving of S tier. Breakneck Blitz also provides Serperior with tremendous breaking power, power that Gliscor and Latias both lack.
Crobat down to B
Crobat is plagued with a general inability to combat Steel-types, which definitely hurts it in a metagame where Stakataka, Mega Aggron, and Klefki are all notable threats. Its ability to nearly counter Serperior mustn't go unnoticed, however, which keeps it from being a guaranteed drop and makes it something more worth discussing with the community.
I agree that Crobat's viability is in decline. Although the rise of Rotom-Wash to OU took away one less check to Crobat, it still doesn't really have a defining characteristic that makes it threatening in the current meta. It is in an amazing speed tier and does provide a good match up versus stall because of it's immunity to Toxic and access to Taunt, however with the possible ban of Serperior, Crobat will have even less of a purpose in the UU tier.
 
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#14
As much as I don’t want to blow my own trumpet and I realise you also had a lot of stuff to factor in making this, perfectly valid, metagame relevant arguments for Salazzle and Kommo to raise were made in the last thread and there was a lack of coherent arguments raised. Could we either see those rise or reasoning on why not please?
I agree. Kommo-o can compete with a lot of metagame trends & top tier threats. It's very good vs Trick Room (also half TR teams), Balance, and HO; it has a decent match-up against stall as you can go mixed and get a lot of work done. It can also take advantage of locked in move (that isn't play rough) banded azumarill, locked in bp banded scizor, and it's a decent check to Serperior and Mega Manectric (depending on the set). It's a very good anti-meta threat that can fill in the gap for what your team needs. Kommo-o to B/B+
 
#15
So after a long break, I decided to get back into UU. Some stuff I've noticed is better since I left are
Snorlax which I think should be B or even B+. Figy recycle curse is really good and enjoys its most popular counter like cobalion dropping right off in usage, haven't seen it once on the ladder tbh as well as checks like knock off gliscor (at least as far as I've seen) and krookodile also being less common. It can set up on so much and if you manage to get it burned (while running facade obvs) then it basically 6-0's almost any fat team without quag and does a huge number to trick room teams which are much more popular now (albeit also new toy syndrome with the box thing). It is also one of very few good switchins to nidoking which I've also noticed has gotten more popular and also beats all mega alt sets (apart from cotton guard which boils down to crit wars). The only downsides it faces in the current meta is needing to run EQ as SD wak is a thing and that heracross has more cred (though is still rare). Replay of snorlax doing work against a pretty competent opponent http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-691173220

I also think that
alomomola deserves a rise to A. This mon basically necessitates set up on your team as otherwise it will just wall you forever and pivot around your choiced mons with ease thanks to regen and protect. It is true that it has no offensive presence but people overlook the defensive pressure it puts on teams, not only through its titanic bulk but through the fact that it passes wishes so easily. E.g, serp may think it has a free switchin but if it switches in on a wish then all you need to do is just switch out to your mega mane or mega aero and you suffer no real net loss in hp and now you have the momentum. This is quite a common scenario and that's just me playing for an afternoon on the higher ladder. Definitely a really good mon that fits on pretty much any playstyle other than HO. To me it seems much better than everything in A-.

As for drops, I really think
togekiss warrants a drop to B+. I've really tried to make this mon work but passive teams are just not popular (or good imo) enough for it to regularly get a chance to get work done. Mega mane and muk-a are v. common and thriving atm and the metal box is also popular which you need aura sphere to beat. Scizor being the best mon in the tier means that even if you do manage to set up, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to go for a sweep plus the fact that SD gliscor beats in 1v1 unless your flyinium or firinium (lol) means that you can't even really use its natural resistances much.
 
#16
I haven't posted much lately and there's some stuff that I'd kinda like to see happen, so here goes nothing ^-^ hope y'all enjoy

Infernape should move up to A+
This one may be a little controversial but I absolutely believe that Infernape is worth being ranked alongside metagame staples like Hydreigon and Mega Manectric. It's arguably the tier's absolute best Choice Scarf user because it can utilize merely its STAB attacks and Gunk Shot to cover the majority of threats you'd look to revenge kill. U-turn is absolutely amazing for catching its switch-ins and gaining momentum for its team, and in addition to being either the first or second most reliable revenge killer around (Latias is possibly the first), it functions as a great breaker with Choice Band. Nasty Plot is another set that I think is really good right now due to the recent surge in usage of stall builds (Altaria-less stall is absolutely bodied by NP Ape) but what sets it apart from other stallbreakers is that it can consistently put in work with NP against nearly any other team archetype. This is mostly due to its fantastic speed tier that really isn't possessed by other stallbreakers, since it allows Ape to threaten offensive and balanced builds. Overall, Infernape is just such a defining threat due to the strength of its revenge killing, sweeping, and wallbreaking sets and it should really be reflected as the titan that it is in rising to A+. The strongest argument against this drop is the surge in usage of Scarf Latias, which gives Infernape a decent amount of problems, but it definitely has a hard time coming in on Ape due to the threat of banded STAB attacks or U-turn, which means that it isn't something that completely invalidates our favorite fire monkey. I've been rambling about the same mon long enough, but yeah, this guy could absolutely find itself in a subrank higher than its current one.

Cobalion should move back up to A+
I don't really understand why exactly Cobalion moved down to begin with. It's really just as consistent in its roles as anything else it was formerly ranked with, since SD + either Fight or Steel Z is extremely threatening and hard for nearly any archetype barring stall to deal with. In addition to functioning as a sweeper, Cobalion poses a threat as one of the tier's more reliable Stealth Rock setters due to its great typing and Speed tier. It also has use as a strong check to a lot of Pokemon that are really solid right now, including Alolan Muk, Stakataka, and Hydreigon (speed tier is honestly super nice for dealing with the three headed dragon in this meta). The recent discovery of its Calm Mind set is another thing that I'd say makes Cobalion worth rising, as it only adds to this Pokemon's versatility and splashability and gives it a way of surprising and beating an archetype it'd struggle to deal with on any other set, which is stall. Overall, Cobalion is plenty influential to justify finding itself back in A+, due to its consistecy between three great sets and its ability to stand up to a lot of Pokemon that are pretty big presences right now.

Kyurem could move down to B... maybe?
This is honestly a tricky one. Kyurem is a really good Pokemon and it's pretty underrated but I have a hard time comparing it to what else is in B+. Its wallbreaking capabilities and the strength of the SubRoost set aren't to go unnoticed, but I feel like even with Roost in its arsenal it has longevity issues and isn't keeping up with the metagame as well as its current rank would suggest. Hydreigon and Latias don't only give Kyurem considerable competition as Dragon-type breakers due to their better defensive attributes and movepools, but they also have huge presences in the metagame, which can hinder Kyurem's ability to perform adequately. It's also hurt by Scizor's dominance, and doesn't appreciate the increased viability of Steel-types like Stakataka, Mega Aggron, and Empoleon that can just abuse most of the moves it ends up getting choice-locked into. Kyurem is still a great pick and something that should always be considered, but I feel like the metagame is against it more than the rest of the B+ rank and that it also competes with Dragon-type wallbreakers more directly than the competition anything else in its rank has.

Mega Absol might be B- material
Another tricky one but I think this mon is hurt a lot by its general frailty. It doesn't have a TON of power which prevents it from KOing what it needs to KO, and in return it gets killed itself. It has huge movepool issues since Fire Blast and Ice Beam are becoming more of necessities to find room for, though Superpower, Iron Tail, and Play Rough are all moves that in sacrificing it could face a lot of challenges. It struggles to compete for a mega slot when the likes of Manectric and Altaria become increasingly easier to use and fit on teams, and it's also hurt by the prominence of things like Azumarill, Primarina, Scarf Ape, and especially Scizor. Idk. It just feels odd gauging this thing's viability and ultimately saying it's as good as Mega Blastoise and Mega Steelix when the meta seems to be working against it so much with all of these top threats.

Bronzong should rise to maybe even B, it's better than like everything in B-
This thing is honestly sick right now. It stands up to so many huge threats in the current metagame, most notably Latias, Gliscor, Serperior, and Mega Altaria, which are notable for being among the best Pokemon we currently have. Its typing, access to Levitate, and movepool allow it to easily chip foes through either Psywave or Gyro Ball while sponging hits on both physical and special sides, and keeping a few notoriously hard-to-switch-into wallbreakers like Mamoswine and Nidoking at bay is honestly incredible for a mon that can essentially be slapped on balance to deal with half of what's in ranks S through A-. It's just really really solid right now and is super consistent as a defensive rocker thanks to all of the strengths its typing and ability and bulk can currently provide it with. If anything, it should be ranked alongside Metagross, since I'd argue it's a little better but Gross doesn't deserve C+.

Some of these discussion points don't have a ton of well, discussion, so I want to weigh in on them before I leave:

Crobat down: Agree - Crobat deserves the increased usage due to its ability to stand up to Serperior with relative ease. However, I don't think that checking Serp is such a defining characteristic that getting walled hardcore by Steel-types warrrants B+. Mega Aggron is at its best, Klefki/Cobalion/Doublade are all great, and Stakataka both beats Crobat easily and influenced the viability of a playstyle that matches up poorly against it. It's still a solid mon but I think it's become harder to use given the Steel-heavy nature of the meta. Mega Aero and Manectric being boss also doesn't help.

Toxicroak down: Disagree - I can understand the incentive to drop this due to the competition it faces, but Toxicroak is a really slept on threat that deserves a lot of recognition, or at least enough so to maintain its B- ranking. VinCune is arguably at its best right now given the amazing response to recent metagame trends, and Toxicroak can really capitalize on that fact to accumulate boosts easily against something that otherwise is a huge struggle for offense to deal with. It's honestly such a great stop a currently defining mon and while not amazing in itself, that alone is worth keeping it B- since it's such a huge boon at this stage in the metagame.

Thanks for reading!
 
#17
Ampharos-Mega to C-

Before the most recent drops, this thing should not have been anywhere near the viability rankings. However, the rise of trick room has legitimately given this mon a defined niche. I essence, the standard OU TR team is so good that it really doesn't need many changes to work in UU, the only key difference of course being a lack of Magearna, a mon who is obviously impossible to replace perfectly due to how much it brings to teams.

I've tried a few things to fill this spot, mostly Sylveon, Altaria, Primarina, but I just found that it never did anything. I was constantly struggling against bulky water, especially Suicune and Azumarill. So I figured I'd give Mega Amph a go! And it fills the spot really well, it's bulky enough with a nice enough typing to be able to switch in to water types multiple times, which 9/10 times ends up freeing up the way to victory for Crawdaunt. It's typing and movepool basically allow it to beat the whole of the S rank under TR and if the opp has anything which can switch in (Blissey) you have the option to just Volt out!

Obviously, if it were that simple I'd be nomming it higher but outside of TR it's almost useless, and Mega-Alt is a massive pain in the arse for it, so you kinda have to get rid of that thing with Staka first. It's hits are only really powerful enough for super effective hits, and it's often forced out after one kill, which isn't ideal when you kinda wanna steamroll the opponent. On top of that, I often find that I miss having a certain move in most matchups, as you'll find yourself choosing between Tbolt/Volt/Focus/Hidden power Ice/Hidden Power Grass and even Heal Bell/Toxic. But yeah, definitely recommend chucking it onto TR if you need a last mon to do a bit of breaking for Daunt.

On a side note, rank Cress/Uxie, Cress probably being higher cause despite Uxie's bulk, it ends up being a suicide lead half the time, or a potential sack later. I think Daunt should rise up a rank too as outside of Mega-Alt/Azu (defensive), it's so hard to switch into. Staka could move to A+ as that thing is ridiculous and you need Mega-Aggron/Pert to properly wall it, the latter of whom could even go up to A right now cause it's such a good pivot now that Rotom's gone.
 

tondas

a crispy and delicious meal
is a Pre-Contributor
#18
Hello.

Serperior.png
I'd like to kindly disagree with Serperior moving down to A+. I feel like this mon does so much for the tier. It's a fantastic stallbreaker with its SubSeed set, it has the capability of breaking through checks with Normalium Z Hyper Beam, most good switch-ins become a 2HKO after SR, and it's by far the best answer to the bulky waters in the tier (Gliscor and Scizor really appreciate this!!) No doubt that losing Rotom-W and the rising popularity of TR gave it fewer setup opportunities, but the amount of support it provides for teams is quite significant, and not to mention how the mons its weak to are handled quite comfortably by Gliscor/Scizor (Amoonguss, Alolan Marowak, Mega Altaria, MAero and Scarf Gengar as RKers) and Serp is able to handle stuff like Azumarill and the aforementioned bulky waters in return.

Smeargle.png
Smeargle should probably drop, likely to C-. It's getting increasingly hard to justify using this thing. I feel as if things that 1v1 Smeargle with ease are too common. Sticky Web also got considerably worse because of TR and Serperior and the plethora of good removers and all that. Araquanid can at the very least pressure Gliscor, defensive Scizor, Scarf Latias and just most offensive leads in general. Being the only mon with Sticky Web + Stealth Rock besides Shuckle is cool and all if you really need that role compression, but tell me, when is there ever a time you'll be able to get up both hazards in time for it to matter?

Mega_Abomasnow.png
I'm alright with Mega Abomasnow moving up to B. It has pretty solid synergy with the other Trick Room sweepers, taking care of the things Stakataka and Alolan Marowak have trouble with, namely bulky waters, Gliscor, Hippowdon and Chesnaught. SD is also a considerable option that gives you some much needed speed control outside of TR with Ice Shard.

Primarina: A -> A-
Terrakion: B+ -> A-
Metagross: B- -> Higher

I agree with most of the stuff other people nominated here. Looking forward to seeing how the tier adapts! :]
 
#19

Serperior: S ---> A+: Agreed
Serperior loses to way too much to be ranked this high. Moltres, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Muk-Alola, LO Mamoswine RKs with Ice Shard with enough prior damage, Amoonguss, Mega Manectric, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Choice Scarf Infernape, Amoonguss, the list goes on, and it isn't like any of the mons I just listed are obscure niche picks specifically designated to countering Serperior and nothing more. "B-b-b-but Z-Hyper Beam!" I know I'm gonna make people angry with this next statement, but honestly, Z-Hyper Beam is overhyped to hell. You basically get one shot to possibly take something out, and then you're left with a useless move slot. The surprise factor the set once had has all but faded, especially on the higher end of the ladder. Nowadays, if your opponent sends in Serperior and you don't see Leftovers or Life Orb, and the damage roll doesn't show Meadow Plate/Miracle Seed, it's probably BB, which makes it easy to play accordingly. It doesn't even consistently do its supposed job of getting past conventional Serp checks, as mons like Amoonguss and Muk can still tank one and fire back, while mons like Mega Beedrill and Scarf Infernape just outspeed and KO. And then there are sets like Choice Scarf, which are way too fringe and don't see enough ladder usage to be worth considering. When you're a Grass type with a 130 BP STAB that gives you a Nasty Plot boost every time you use it and you can sometimes lose to Suicune, I dunno if you're worthy of being placed at the absolute top of the meta. Serperior is far from a bad mon, it's still very, very good, but I don't think it's this huge force on the level of Pokemon like Scizor and Gliscor, which can be brainlessly slapped on to any build and do their job well, or Latias, one of the most versatile and powerful Pokemon the tier has ever seen.
 
#20
I would propose another change - Mamoswine to A+
I honestly believe it is a huge threat in the tier above all the pokemon in its tier and on par with azumarill and hydreigon.
It is an extremely strong lead because of the diversity of uses - it can be used to set up stealth rock, with choice band/scarf or a life orb to catch most players off guard and get an early ko.
It can also be used in the late game and between ice shard, earthquake, and stone edge it has a moveset to threaten almost any pokemon
 
#21
I'd like to comment on the Fighting-types currently in the metagame right now.

First off, Kommo is such an all-around better Pokemon than Bewear, yet Kommo is sitting in B- and Bewear is sitting in B. Bewear is just so underwhelming and needs to drop. Its bulky, sure, and has a place on Trick Room, but it just feels weak with having to run Superpower or Hammer arm instead of the far superior Close Combat. It also lacks a solid way to hit Ghost-types in the tier. Kommo-o is extremely dangerous, particularly with its sub salac belly drum set being able to straight up sweep teams that aren't prepared for it. It runs a plethora of roles, including its increasingly-popular SD SR set being able to set rocks while also threatening with Swords Dance and an incredibly powerful Z move that could be Fightinium or Dragonium. Having a resistance to Grass, Electric, and Water is also very useful in the current meta. This is why I'm proposing that Kommo goes to B+ and Bewear drops to B-.

I disagree with the nomination for Infernape to A+, simply because while it is one of the most common scarfers, getting locked into Fire and Fighting-type coverage isn't really appreciated in a meta with so many fat Waters, Grounds, and Faires. Its set-up sets seem really underwhelming because it has trouble finding opportunity to set up and of course its outsped and OHKOd by common Megas and Scarfers and is forced to tie with Cobalion as it reaches a speed tier that wishes it was more.

Lucario is being slept on as well, as it has better coverage and typing while also being able to run a NP or SD set and has more overall raw power than Cobalion right off the bat. Lucario could rise to B if it continues doing its job well, but should probably stay where it is right now.

On that note, Cobalion is also good but its fine in A atm.

Mienshao deserves a rise to B- in my opinion, both of its choice sets have a surprising amount of power behind them and good fast U-turns to provide momentum.

Heracross is really an amazing Pokemon right now, being able to tear apart stall and almost invalidating the playstyle, forcing stall teams to run wild things like Acrobatics Gliscor and such. Swords Dance + Guts boost is just incredible and slow teams just have no response to it. Heracross should rise to A.
 
#22
I still believe Serperior is a threat to be feared by any UU player, but the tier managed to adapt to it over time, because it already had the tools for it, namely crobat, amoonguss, some speedy megas, and some pokemon running ice coverage for gliscor and fire coverage for scizor which all help out. This allied to the fact that the tier has a decent bunch of priority users and scarfers balances the presence of serperior, so I believe its clear the reason for a drop in this case even tho S is still justifiable.

I want to state that I read the whole NP thread before making the post below and I may be a bit too late posting this. However, I've seen some people commenting how they "feel like" about this pokemon so I am making sure that my arguments are all based on calculations.

Azumarill is not in the same situation as Serperior. The only switch-ins available in UU that can handle both CB and BD sets considering all the coverage it can run and priority are Tentacruel, Volcanion, Venusaur and specifically Weakness Policy Metagross. Necrozma and Cresselia can but its very set dependant, and Cresselia has the trending trick room set which makes it actually lack the speed required to do something back to azu. I found out surprisingly that Porygon 2 using specifically a counter set has 22% chance for both surviving superpower and then kill back (the Z-BD set, not sitrus) with tbolt after rocks. But these later 3 aren't that much relevant.
Forretress can absorb some damage from banded azu. But the most it does back to Azu is volt switch (23.4 - 28.1%). Klefki can also absorb some damage, but then uses Thunder Wave, damage from it aint enough. Suicune relies on scald burns.
I've seen the comments on primarina, but those were rather saying Azu is not a check to primarina more than saying primarina can check azumarill so: 252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4+ Def Primarina: 285-336 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO. 31.2% chance of survival is not enough for a mon to be considered as a check.
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 220 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 278-328 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
My point is: (I will exclude Volcanion here because it can receive stealth rocks pressure and is hard to build around) unless your running either Tentacruel, Venusaur or Metagross, Azumarill threatens your team. "Its the same situation for Crawdaunt and some other pokemons" is a flawed statement because none of those slow tanks with absurd damage has access to a +6 Ajet or this much coverage. The calcs below are proof.
(these are not adamant)
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 541-637 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 422-497 (97.6 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 366-431 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 340-402 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 186-220 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (araqua is slower)
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 306-362 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (for chesnaught to survive a hit at this ratio its necessairly slower)
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4+ Def Primarina: 285-336 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That said, dealing with Azumarill is so much prediction-dependant that, since the council has voted for a no ban, i'm nominating it back to S rank for the sake of advertising people on how much of a nuke this thing is. And if you think about the versatility/capability to fit this on teams, well, this pokemon showed 17% usage on the last tier shift, has immunity to dragon, can be immune to grass, its pursuit resistant, not weak to rocks and its bulk allows for enough set up opportunities.

Toxicroak down to C+ I agree because even if Mega-shark is not trending, croak still suffers from 4 slot syndrome as described on the discussion post.

I have my doubts if both Slowbro and Slowking can remain viable for this tier. They're already down at C- and both the burn nerf and the top tier attackers do not favor them at all.
 
#23
As for drops, I really think
togekiss warrants a drop to B+. I've really tried to make this mon work but passive teams are just not popular (or good imo) enough for it to regularly get a chance to get work done. Mega mane and muk-a are v. common and thriving atm and the metal box is also popular which you need aura sphere to beat. Scizor being the best mon in the tier means that even if you do manage to set up, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to go for a sweep plus the fact that SD gliscor beats in 1v1 unless your flyinium or firinium (lol) means that you can't even really use its natural resistances much.
Sad to say, but I have to agree on this. The 'Kiss can't do anything against the most popular megas or against trick room, and its stallbreaking set isn't as effective as it used to be either. It can still work as a supportive mon or an unconventional choice user, but its "main" set should be shelved until metagame trends shift.

As for other discussion points:
- Latias S to A+ DISAGREE. Other posters have covered this. I have nothing more to add.
- Serpior S to A+ AGREE. For me, S-rank pokemon are both centralizing and versatile, bringing both offensive and defensive presence and having significant utility options. Serp has the offensive presence but lacks somewhat defensively, and its defog and glare sets are somewhat dubious. I've gone back and forth on this one but think A+ is a good place for Serp for now.
- Crobat B+ to B DISAGREE. I might be biased because I just plain like Crobat. That said, it is a strong option against stall and probably the best Serperior counter in the tier. It does struggle against steels but it does well enough in this meta to stay put IMO.
- Enteir B- to C+ AGREE. Sacred Fire isn't enough of a reason to use Entei right now. Infernape is a better option in almost every way.
- Toxicroak B- to C+ UNDECIDED. I can't say that I use this mon or have even seen it on the ladder.

Finally, a nomination of my own:

1516740435687.png
Umbreon C+ -> B-

This guy is pretty slept on right now. Calm Umbreon eats most special attackers for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Foul play helps prevent Umbreon from becoming setup bait, and Synchronize is a sweet ability for dealing with other fat walls that want to abuse toxic like Hippowdon and Mantine. Wish and protect are also obviously great for stalling out trick room turns. Poison types pair very well with Umbreon as they cover the fighting/bug/fairy weakness and Umbreon deals with the psychics. Try it for yourself on the ladder and laugh when Specs Hydreigon fails to do 50% with draco meteor.
 
#24

Serperior: S ---> A+: Agreed
Serperior loses to way too much to be ranked this high. Moltres, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Muk-Alola, LO Mamoswine RKs with Ice Shard with enough prior damage, Amoonguss, Mega Manectric, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Choice Scarf Infernape, Amoonguss, the list goes on, and it isn't like any of the mons I just listed are obscure niche picks specifically designated to countering Serperior and nothing more. "B-b-b-but Z-Hyper Beam!" I know I'm gonna make people angry with this next statement, but honestly, Z-Hyper Beam is overhyped to hell. You basically get one shot to possibly take something out, and then you're left with a useless move slot. The surprise factor the set once had has all but faded, especially on the higher end of the ladder. Nowadays, if your opponent sends in Serperior and you don't see Leftovers or Life Orb, and the damage roll doesn't show Meadow Plate/Miracle Seed, it's probably BB, which makes it easy to play accordingly. It doesn't even consistently do its supposed job of getting past conventional Serp checks, as mons like Amoonguss and Muk can still tank one and fire back, while mons like Mega Beedrill and Scarf Infernape just outspeed and KO. And then there are sets like Choice Scarf, which are way too fringe and don't see enough ladder usage to be worth considering. When you're a Grass type with a 130 BP STAB that gives you a Nasty Plot boost every time you use it and you can sometimes lose to Suicune, I dunno if you're worthy of being placed at the absolute top of the meta. Serperior is far from a bad mon, it's still very, very good, but I don't think it's this huge force on the level of Pokemon like Scizor and Gliscor, which can be brainlessly slapped on to any build and do their job well, or Latias, one of the most versatile and powerful Pokemon the tier has ever seen.
Saying that serp loses to too much is an invalid argument as scizor is the best mon in the tier and it still loses to fire type moves and anything that resists its moves. The same thing goes for mons like lati and gliscor as they also lose to things like mamo and other mons so this is a very invalid argument
 
#25
Saying that serp loses to too much is an invalid argument as scizor is the best mon in the tier and it still loses to fire type moves and anything that resists its moves. The same thing goes for mons like lati and gliscor as they also lose to things like mamo and other mons so this is a very invalid argument
Look, just because scizor "loses" against serp doesn't mean that it is an invalid argument. Although I'm kind of disagreeing for it to go to A+, saying that just because a mon has fire type coverage means that there's no reason to drop is downright outrageous. Serp does get checked by a handful of mons, which is imo, is a good argument for dropping a mon. Btw, serp gets bopped by bullet punch which is certainly not a reason that an argument is invalid becuase they can OHKO scizor. If what you are saying is true, then we might as well raise every single fire type/fire coverage mon.
 
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