USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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vivalospride

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Vileplume to B-: STRONG AGREE
Is it as good as Amoonguss? FUCK no... but is it prolly the closest we can get to using Amoonguss in the tier? Yes. I was the one who nommed this thing to get on the vr in the first place, and after that I didn't use it for a while, cause at the end of the day we have Amoonguss, so why tf would I use Vileplume ?_?. Well now Amoonguss is gone, Strength Sap is broken and so is Azu. This thing is much better than Venusaur as an Amoon replacement imo, mainly because of it actually having a semi decent ability, and Strength Sap is so fuckin disgusting. Ban Azu.

Zoroark to C: NAH FAM
Why? This mon is a gimmick that rarely actually ever works.

Mega Shark to A: YUH

This mon is a disgusting cleaner. It's ability + movepool + high atk stat is absurd. This mon is a Physical mon that breaks through Mega Slowbro, that's nuts. Shark is literally Jesus Christ to offense players. Also Amoon can usually eat Psychic Fangs and now it's gone. Move it up lads.

Mega Steelix to C+: NO

This mon does so many things, issa Lati check, elec immunity, rocker, phaser, etc. Yes, it is usually outclassed by Mega Aggron, but Mega Manectric is fuckin everywherrreeee, making a team without an electric immunity is like the dumbest thing ever to me. M-Aggron often forces you to fit an elec immunity elsewhere, when the rocker is usually the easiest place to put one. It isn't uncommon at all for me to be like "hmm maggron would be cool here but I need elec immunity, oh, Lix." Also whenever I use it, it rarely lets me down or underwhelms me.


Rhyperior to B-: YEYE
Rock is an important typing because it resists fire and flying, which is like the most annoying shit of all time. I spam Nihilego cause I hate switching into Moltres and Mega Burd so fuckin much. This thing gives some great role compression w/ the fact that it's a rock type, and an elec immunity. If you have 5 mons on a squad, and you hard lose to both Mega Manectric and Moltres, this mon literally patches all that shit. It's dope.

Toxicroak to C+: WYNAUT
Yeah I've used this mon a decent bit recently. It's like, death fodder every game... As long as Gliscor is in the tier, I don't see it being too amazing. It's still good enough to be ranked, but just barely. Suicune is fuckin disgusting, like it's an electric immunity tbh... so having something that just hard walls tf out of it is dope, but with the fact that Gliscor and other b
 
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B+ Rank
Moltres

Have you ever looked at that and wondered, "Why in the name of everything is that mon ranked B+?" Well I have and I honestly thought someone would have nominated it by now but no one has. I use Moltres on a hyper offense team and I kid you not, every game I lead Moltres and just click its Z move and just mercilessly punch holes in my opponents team. Although inhibitted by a 4x weakness to rocks this Pokemon proves time and time again that it is one of the strongest and most relevant wall breakers and sweepers in this meta. Welcome to my 1 AM nomination enjoy what might be incoherent but hopefully sound rambling.

Very few Pokemon can switch in to Moltres. Off the top of my head I can name these few: Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey, Empoleon, Nihilego, Rhyperior (Thanks to Dodmen for starting the wave :D), Muk-Alola, Mantine and then Stakataka, Tentacruel, and Swampert to an extent. That's about 7 solid checks and a few softer checks. Let me break down how well these Pokemon wall Moltres. Of these only Blissey and Mantine have reliable Recovery, also Z Haze Tentacruel and Roost Mega Aerodactyl. The rest of the afformentioned Pokemon are worn down by Moltres' powerful STAB attacks at hazards. Moltres has the ability to U Turn and use Agility for possible sweeping potential as well as having a lot of versatility in being capable of using Life Orb, Choice Specs and Scarf, Z move, or even a defensive set on stall.

That brings me to my next point. As shown very wonderfully by Hikari stall, Moltres' ability to PP stall and relieve rocks from the field, as well as poisoning other Pokemon is very useful. Paired with Registeel, a new face on VR, Moltres is a terrifying Pokemon to break.

Now that I have touched base with what checks Moltres and what it does it's time to talk about what Moltres checks and pressures. Moltres is a very much needed wall to Breloom, Scizor, and Mega Altaria. It's ability to burn those Pokemon, as well as other threatening physical attackers like Beedril, is very useful in offensive match ups. Having the ability to completely wall Gliscor is also very useful. I forgot a lot of the points I was originally going to make and I'm sure there is a lot more to be said about this Pokemon. Feel free to comment on my post or even disagree with me.

In conclusion I think Moltres should be moved up to A- or even A but I think that is too high for this Pokemon currently. That is all thanks for reading if you did, cheers! - itsjustdrew
 

Kink

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B+ Rank
Moltres

Have you ever looked at that and wondered, "Why in the name of everything is that mon ranked B+?" Well I have and I honestly thought someone would have nominated it by now but no one has. I use Moltres on a hyper offense team and I kid you not, every game I lead Moltres and just click its Z move and just mercilessly punch holes in my opponents team. Although inhibitted by a 4x weakness to rocks this Pokemon proves time and time again that it is one of the strongest and most relevant wall breakers and sweepers in this meta. Welcome to my 1 AM nomination enjoy what might be incoherent but hopefully sound rambling.

Very few Pokemon can switch in to Moltres. Off the top of my head I can name these few: Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey, Empoleon, Nihilego, Rhyperior (Thanks to Dodmen for starting the wave :D), Muk-Alola, Mantine and then Stakataka, Tentacruel, and Swampert to an extent. That's about 7 solid checks and a few softer checks. Let me break down how well these Pokemon wall Moltres. Of these only Blissey and Mantine have reliable Recovery, also Z Haze Tentacruel and Roost Mega Aerodactyl. The rest of the afformentioned Pokemon are worn down by Moltres' powerful STAB attacks at hazards. Moltres has the ability to U Turn and use Agility for possible sweeping potential as well as having a lot of versatility in being capable of using Life Orb, Choice Specs and Scarf, Z move, or even a defensive set on stall.

That brings me to my next point. As shown very wonderfully by Hikari stall, Moltres' ability to PP stall and relieve rocks from the field, as well as poisoning other Pokemon is very useful. Paired with Registeel, a new face on VR, Moltres is a terrifying Pokemon to break.

Now that I have touched base with what checks Moltres and what it does it's time to talk about what Moltres checks and pressures. Moltres is a very much needed wall to Breloom, Scizor, and Mega Altaria. It's ability to burn those Pokemon, as well as other threatening physical attackers like Beedril, is very useful in offensive match ups. Having the ability to completely wall Gliscor is also very useful. I forgot a lot of the points I was originally going to make and I'm sure there is a lot more to be said about this Pokemon. Feel free to comment on my post or even disagree with me.

In conclusion I think Moltres should be moved up to A- or even A but I think that is too high for this Pokemon currently. That is all thanks for reading if you did, cheers! - itsjustdrew
I disagree with this. The myriad of support Moltres needs in order to function well cannot be ignored in the slightest. Yes, its typing ability and movepool are all very well supported by the tier and gives Moltres the necessary breathing room to fulfill its role(s) well, but not at the point where it needs minimal support to fulfill these roles. That's what an A rank mon is, even one that's a A-. I cannot support this nom and think Moltres should definitely stay where it is. B+ is definitely as high as this thing can go right now.
 

dingbat

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moltres definitely has a- potential for a few particular reasons. i disagree that support such as necessary hazard removal should stop moltres from breaking into the a ranks since it has so many defining qualities that otherwise make it easily a solid a rank (not a-, but a) mon. its ability to fit on every single major team archetype imo is the biggest quality that clearly differentiates it from everything else in b+ ranks. this can probably wait til azu gets nuked from uu though.

with fungus gone, there is zero excuses for breloom to not rise to a+

sticking with my words that rhyp is more viable than megalix rn

lycanroc should probably be unranked; accelrock/suicide lead is cute and all but it literally does jack shit otherwise

zoroark definitely should not be ranked but at the same time, some of the reasoning i’m seeing is making me smh
 
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I’d like to nominate Tentacruel to A

Amoongus leaving has been amazing for this mon. It’s now one of the best switch ins to banded Azu that we have, particularly with Z-Haze and is the only bulky water switch that isn’t lured by Perish Trap (assuming poison move). With a poison move and 16+ speed Tenta also serves as a serviceable loom check, able to switch in, outspeed and OHKO loom, while continuing to screw with top tier threats in Scizor, Cobalion, Altaria, Beam Slowbro, Ape and more. However, the main reason I’m nominating it is because of the hugely increased viability of t spikes, particularly paired with vincune. As well as now having an even better stall matchup, balance, fat balance/semi stall and BO just lost their best t spikes absorber and answer to this core in the mushroom, (hence the common use of SubRoost Kyurem over cune as a Tenta partner before Amoongus left) and this core is hot as hell rn.
Tenta by itself has also become much more splashable thanks to its ability to deal with the two most broken mons in UU rn, Loom and Azu, as well benefiting from the rise in usage of slightly less common threats like Primarina.

As for the current discussion topics:

Disagree with Moltres rising, while it can function as an early game nuke it requires a lot of support to remain healthy throughout the game, meaning it often fails to check stuff like late game SD Scizor, Breloom (which also lures w tomb but whatever) and Cobalion.

Dingbat is spot on, Loom needs to go to A+ right now! Might do a proper nom later, if no one else does


Edit: wow BW sprites really are enormous
 

Kink

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moltres definitely has a- potential for a few particular reasons. i disagree that support such as necessary hazard removal should stop moltres from breaking into the a ranks since it has so many defining qualities that otherwise make it easily a solid a rank (not a-, but a) mon. its ability to fit on every single major team archetype imo is the biggest quality that clearly differentiates it from everything else in b+ ranks. this can probably wait til azu gets nuked from uu though.
It's not just necessary hazard removal that should stop Moltres from entering A ranks. Offensive Moltres (which are more popular than bulkier sets) rely on unreliable, albeit powerful moves that make you lose games, which amplify the need for long term planning and consideration when it comes to supporting Moltres. In these cases, you use Moltres for its ability to be a special Wallbreaker, and every player always "plans" for their clutch wallbreaking move to wallbreak. Yes z-flying is fantastic, but z-moves are inherently very powerful and Moltres is one of many Pokemon that can take advantage of a special wallbreaking move. Every other time, you need to hope you don't miss a clutch Hurricane or Fire Blast. If you do, you need to force yourself into a position where Moltres can a) either be used again, or b) you lose the turn and put yourself in a worse off position for the remainder of the battle: this can lead to Moltres being reduced to fodder especially when facing off against higher-level players that'll make you pay dearly for a clutch miss.

That's not to say that Moltres isn't good. B+ is a very good rank for a mon. Moltres is definitely good. I just can't see Moltres as this "archetype defining" mon that we mostly expect out of our As, even the A-s. You can't tell me Moltres does its job as well as something like Blissey or Aloma do as far as dedicated role effectiveness. Moltres is NOT the best wallbreaker. It's NOT the best Pressure mon. It's NOT the fastest, even for Fire-types. But what it is one of the best at is facing off against popular meta trends. Flying-type by virtue of typing alone is a fantastic offensive typing when coupled with Moltres's fantastic SpA and access to insanely powerful Fire-type moves for pesky Steel-types. It gives it the ability to crack through said trends early on or in a pinch. In fact, I'd argue that its ability to fit on any archetype is a testament to its anti-meta abilities, as opposed to its meta-trending ones. In other words, Moltres does not define the meta, it tears it apart. But it needs the necessary support to do so, including the potential support to prepare for a terribly timed miss. To me, these are clear indicators of needing more support than an A mon demonstrates.
 

Freeroamer

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I think anyone who's played UU recently can attest to this, but I think it would be massively underselling Rhyperior's place in the current metagame if at best in this slate, you move it just up to B- (A whole rank beneath Swampert!!!) What Rhyperior does for a squad is well documented within this thread already but those arguments should be used to push it a lot higher up in the rankings in my honest opinion, the amount of role compression it brings to a squad is to die for in this current metagame which is why I think it needs to be a lot closer to Swampert in viability. Me personally I would have Rhyp over Swamp on most teams right now but I get that's probably too much to ask for at the moment, so a raise to B+ would be what I suggest. In terms of pure splashability (the way I see these threads for the most part) this ranking would make sense as it's definitely more splashable than everything underneath it and to be honest most of the stuff around it. People need to stop using EQ / Ice Punch / Toxic sets though cos relying purely on Tox for Moltres is just kinda sad imo.

Steelix really could do with dropping I just don't see where I'd ever use it in this metagame, with another viable ground that adds a fly resist now being available, in general it's a shitty electric check and is outclassed by Aggron for everything else. It should probably drop into the C ranks as that would more accurately reflect where it's at right now.
 
I'd also like to echo what's been said about Rhyperior right now (BTW I still think Vileplume is B- worthy). It functions as an incredibly powerful Stealth Rocker and check to powerful threats like Moltres and, particularly, Mega Manectric (which is still everywhere), boasting an incredible ability to deal with some coverage Hidden Powers. It hits like a truck, easily killing everything it needs to with its exceptional offensive typing. This thing functions as exceptional role compression, and (even though it's been nominated for a rise) its current ranking of C really sells it short.

I was on board with a Rhyperior rise even before it became a point of discussion, but the past page or so since it became a point of discussion has been filled with good examples of its influence in and on the metagame as of recently. Rhyperior's rise in popularity now affects the viability of many other mons in the tier. For instance, many Water and Grass types appreciate this thing becoming popular because they prey on its weaknesses. Moltres and Mega Steelix drastically dislike this thing being good, one by being consistently checked by it and the other by being largely outclassed by it. I'm once again gonna be jumping the gun with this, but I'm gonna echo this nomination regardless:

Rhyperior from C to as high as B+: STRONGLY Agree. This thing is becoming incredibly good and I'd go so far as to say even B- sells it short despite its clear flaws.
 
I’ll give some thoughts:
Rhyperior rise- fuck yeah. I’m not sure it should rise all the way to b+ already, but the level of role compression it provides makes it clear it has to move up. I think it should move up to b- for now, and if it continues to be as good as it is now, then move it up again. Nothing good ever came from being hasty.

Vileplume rise- yes. Amoonguss leaving meaning there’s a lot more leeway for this flower here, and it checks a lot of what amoonguss checked and we all know how good that was. Obviously, it’s not as good as amoonguss was, but it 100% deserves to be in the b ranks rn. I think b isn’t even too much of a stretch. Really nice mon.

Tentacruel rise- yup. The z haze set is amazing rn, as a check to a lot of common things like azu, spinner, tspikes setter, and not passive to the point of getting set up on. It’s also an azu switchin that doesn’t get screwed by perish trap azu. Obviously, it can’t do every role at once, but it can fulfill so many roles on teams, that it fits on a lot of them rn, and def deserves a raise.

Mega lix drop- yaas, drop this garbage. Mega Aggron is amazing rn, and this thing’s outclassed to the point of “why bother?”. It has an electric immunity, sure, but it really struggles versus mega mane due to overheat, which means it doesn’t end up actually mattering. Mega Aggron + another ground type is just better in the meta rn, and this thing deserves a drop.

No opinion on the rest.
 

Sage

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Mega Mane down to A. Two big reasons.

Meta trends: Lots of trends go against Mane right now and it's not on the same place it once was in the Rotom-W days. Counterplay is super defined to the point where its easy to abuse mane for free turns, the archetype its most prevalent on has fallen, checks are rising (Hippowdon + Rhyperior), basically Mega Mane doesn't scare you the way it used to. So many big threats come in on it for free to get rocks up, heal back, or threaten with strong stab moves. It has to click Volt / HP Ice or Grass 95% of the time, it's so one dimensional it hurts. Calm Sylveon, Kyurem, Rotom-H, Scarf Dragons, all these and more handle it with ease. Manectric has more become an idiot check on teambuilding than an actual threat to prepare for. If you don't bring a Volt Switch immunity sure you're going to have a hard time outplaying it. No good team will be caught dead without a Volt immunity, it doesn't seem like a reason to keep Manectric so high anymore.

Compared to A+: When I look at all the A+ rank threats, they all are threats to win games even when you have adequate counterplay to them. Altaria can run both physical and special sets and is rather hard to scout for, Aero has a million coverage options with Pursuit and Hone Claws as well, Hydreigon can run very effective lure sets as well as shutting down slower teams with Taunt or Specs, and Serperior has the power to muscle through its checks once they're even slightly weakened, as well having ways around checks through Leech Seed and Giga Drain among other things. The key word for all these pokemon is Versatility. All of them are hard to prep for and can beat you in different ways, something Manectric is utterly lacking in. Manectric is incredibly good at its job of being a pivot, but it can't do anything else and as that role has become less in demand with checks to it rising in usage / prevalence. I think Mane should go down a rank on the VR to show that.
 
Hello,

i wanna give my thoughts on Rhyperior.

Rhyperior is pretty good in the metagame right now, because it checks alot of stuff in the current metagame.
Most importantly it checks mega manectric from volt switching around, and is a momentum blocker.
It is also able to check nihilego, which lack grass knot to hit it super effectively.
It also does not fear mons like a-muk and mega pidgeot because it hits them both super effectively with earthquake / stone edge coverage.

I think rhyperior really deserves a rise as it has more than only one niche.
Rhyperior to B-
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Hilomilo

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Ranking Update
Azumarill was removed due to having been banned. Feel free to discuss what changes you'd like to see happen that are related to our loss of Azu, though as always, I encourage that you take your time on this particular kind of discussion since it's hard telling what specific impacts we'll see within these next couple days. With that out of the way, it's time to look at what changed this time around!

Rises
A -> A+
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
B -> B+
C -> B-
C -> C+
C- -> C


Drops
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C -> C-
Breloom’s influence has only increased since the latest tier shifts, as one of the few Pokemon capable of semi-comfortably defensively checking it is now gone. It absolutely warps the metagame around it enough to fit comfortably in A+ at this stage, considering that it currently puts one of the largest constraints on teambuilding. It is one of the most potent and defining setup sweepers in the tier, influences several of the metagame’s trends, and 100% deserves being at the top of the A ranks now that one of the biggest things holding back a rise in Amoonguss is no longer an issue.


Mega Sharpedo has had a bit of an odd time adjusting in a metagame that isn’t as dominated by Spikes offense, though despite both that and Breloom’s current presence it has found more recent viability. Comfortably standing up to one of the tier’s more centralizing forces in Mega Slowbro has made it a stronger pick, while it also benefits from being able to punish a lot of moves that common choice users often find themselves locked into, such as Choice Scarf Latias’s Psychic and Fire-type STAB from scarfers like Chandelure, Volcanion, and Infernape.


This was a bit of a controversial discussion topic though the ranking council ultimately voted in favor of rising Moltres, which currently brings a plethora of useful traits to both offensive and defensive builds. It’s an offensive menace and one of the hardest wallbreakers to switch into in the tier, and it defensively combats top-tier threats such as Breloom, Scizor, Infernape, and Cobalion. It’s been on a hot streak of responding to metagame trends really well and is only a stronger pick since Amoonguss’s departure due to the increased need to check Serperior and Breloom.


Celebi heavily struggled quite recently, though it has vastly improved and is now likely the best bulkier Grass-type the tier has to offer. Reliably checking Breloom is one of the most important traits it currently brings to the table, and now with Amoonguss gone Celebi has more room to pull off defensive sets without competition. Breaking past conventional Grass-type checks with its Nasty Plot + Groundium Z set is also a massively useful tool it has going for it in a metagame filled with Pokemon it lures in, and overall its increased versatility, splashability, and overall usefulness is certainly grounds for a rise from B.


Rotom-C brings more to the table than it ever has and its increased ease of use is being reflected with a rise to B+. It no longer has to struggle breaking past Amoonguss, enjoys the influx in relevance of Mega Manectric checks like Rhyperior and Hippowdon, switches into Scald reliably, and most notably pressures Mega Slowbro, which as mentioned before, is proving to be among the tier’s most centralizing sweepers. Its struggles are still present, though less so and not enough that its perks to being used are too offset.


There’s no denying that Rhyperior has experienced a massive surge in usage and viability. Its most important traits include checking Mega Manectric without being too passive, checking Flying-types, reliably setting Stealth Rock, and blanket checking a few fairly fairly defining physical threats. This has all justified its rise from C into the B rankings, though B+ is currently a little generous given its susceptibility to the tier’s several viable Grass-, Water-, and Fighting-types, as well as its slight suffrage of four-moveslot syndrome and its lack of recovery preventing it from always checking what it aims to check. It could still rise, as will be discussed later on, though from C to B+ in one shift was reaching a little too far for now.


Vileplume lost its main competition as a defensive Grass-type and this was reflected with a rise to C+. It checks a lot of what Amoonguss checked and has the added benefit of Strength Sap, though what’s currently preventing a rise to B- is the fact that it still isn’t used too much and has more apparent struggles than Amoonguss ever did. Its biggest flaw is its lack of Regenerator, which most notably prevents it from really working around things like Primarina if it’s hit by, say, Psychic on the switch, though the inability to necessarily function as a defensive pivot as opposed to just a defensive Pokemon can also hinder it in a few other matchups and makes it hard to automatically just fit onto teams that formerly carried Amoonguss.


This thing has been making its presence a lot more known on stall builds, and while Quagsire is still generally the optimal pick, Pyukumuku’s tools to distinguish itself are enough to rationalize a rise from C-. Better physical and special bulk, the ability to work around stallbreakers with Block, and dealing with some of what Quagsire can’t stand up to are all currently enough to move it up a bit.
This change wasn’t recently discussed but it was probably long overdue. The biggest perks that come with using Jellicent are hard checking Cobalion and Infernape, though otherwise it is quite hard to justify using recently given how many of the tier’s more powerful offensive Pokemon can overwhelm it due to its middling physical bulk. It is also one of the easiest bulky Water-types for the tier’s rising Grass-types to take advantage of, which further justifies falling a rank.


Another change that wasn’t discussed, but probably could have happened a while ago. Magneton’s whole niche stems from its ability to reliably remove Scizor and put in some work against a few other Steel-types, though its awful stats aside from its Special Attack really prevent it from contributing to teams it’s fitted on outside of performing this niche, which isn’t even mandatory. You’re more or less playing a 5v6 game every time you bring Magneton and the opponent isn’t using Scizor or Klefki, and that just isn’t a quality a Pokemon in B can realistically possess, though B- is certainly representative of what it can bring to teams.


Mega Steelix is struggling a bit to really stand out, and is better suited for B- rank at the time due to this. It doesn’t bring a lot to the table that isn’t also provided by Mega Aggron, especially considering that the Water-type weakness and lack of Filter significantly offset the Electric-type immunity, which isn’t even all too useful considering most Electrics have a way or two of punishing it. Its significantly increased competition from other Ground-types also hurts it, though checking Latias, which notably runs Electrium-Z sets more frequently, is a perk it possesses that among others prevents it from dropping any further.


Aurora Veil continues to decrease in consistency as a playstyle, which is why the archetype’s staples in Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash are dropping. Hippowdon’s notable uptick in usage prevents Alolan Sandslash from setting up with veil as easily as before, while the meta also generally favors play styles other than offense which increases the overall opportunity cost of using this duo.


People have been arguing for Toxicroak to drop since the generation began, and now it’s finally making its departure from B-. The main arguments for staying that high were its ability to combat popular threats in Suicune, Breloom, and Alomomola, though those valuable traits are offset by the vulnerability to Ground-types in a tier where Ground-types are rising, the massive competition it faces from about five other Fighting-type sweepers with more valuable teambuilding tools, and its general struggle to work around Mega Slowbro even when running Darkinium Z. Right now a drop is quite fair.


Hoopa is massively unproven and its poor Speed and physical bulk really hurt it in a metagame full of powerful physical attackers that just power through it like it’s nothing. It also faces pretty stiff competition from Gengar and Chandelure, which despite still having a niche, justifies a drop.


Umbreon can still match up extremely well against the majority of UU’s common special attackers, though it falls flat more frequently nowadays given that Breloom is so dominant. Other Fighting-types like Infernape and Cobalion are plenty popular as well, which in tandem with its heavily decreased usage justifies placement in C.


This thing really is just barely viable, and C- is what reflects its place in the metagame best. It isn’t a bad Pokemon, though it has a lot of competition as a Water-type wallbreaker and its main niche as a Webs setter isn’t too relevant considering Webs offense is quite bad. Araquanid’s drop is simply just on account of being rather unremarkable in comparison to the many other Pokemon it competes with.
Starmie A- -> A
Starmie doesn’t really have enough going for it either offensively or defensively to comfortably fit in A. Offensive sets are often hard to switch into, but less so than before given Blissey and Alolan Muk are more splashable than they’ve ever been. It also provides very little defensive utility to the teams it’s fitted on if pursuing an offensive role, which can limit its opportunities to spin hazards away without being weak.

Tentacruel A- -> A
While it’s certainly true that Tentacruel is better than before, it’s too easily overwhelmed on account of its lack of recovery and average physical bulk to be A. Checking powerful offensive Pokemon like Primarina and Infernape and dealing with Serperior and Breloom when running Poison-type STAB is certainly valuable, though the increased need to run Sludge Wave has exacerbated its four-moveslot syndrome, which alongside the above mentioned problems it runs into makes A- fair at this stage in the metagame.

Cofagrigus B- -> C+
Cofagrigus struggles more than before given the competition it faces and the prevalence of Alolan Muk, though this is what pushed it out of its B ranking when this thread was first started. Cofagrigus has a larger amount of relevant Pokemon that can defensively check it, though it still has the ability to claim a huge amount of kills against any team lacking these Pokemon once set up, and is enough of an anti-meta threat to stay afloat in the lower B ranks.

Mega Beedrill B- -> C+
The ranking council voted against putting this change through, as Mega Beedrill still has enough of a place in the metagame to justify staying above the C rankings. Recent trends have certainly hurt it a substantial amount, though it can provide teams with a few very valuable traits, such as the ability to revenge kill Serperior and Breloom and pressure Fairy-types. All in all, while mediocre compared to the threat it once was, Mega Beedrill still has enough going for it to maintain a B- ranking.

Swellow UR -> C-
Swellow runs into a few too many problems to warrant placement within the rankings for now. Choice Specs Boomburst is a pain for offense to deal with, though offense isn’t among the tier’s best play styles at the moment and Swellow itself fails to provide any defensive utility whatsoever. Being OHKOed by Breloom’s Mach Punch and even failing to come in on Scald from Swampert, which it can’t even OHKO from full, are a few of the more notable problems it faces due to its simply terrible bulk.

Discussion Points
Mega Manectric A+ -> A
Mega Manectric may still be a dominant force in the metagame with its blazing Speed and great defensive utility with Intimidate, but it's found itself struggling somewhat against the rise of Swampert, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior, which can all take advantage of it for free turns. That, combined with its lack of versatility, is making some question whether or not it's still good enough to be ranked in A+.

Suicune A -> A-
Suicune constantly seems to fluctuate ranks, and it’s being brought up for a drop again on account of its rather odd place in the current metagame. It has increased competition as a bulky Water-type sweeper from Mega Slowbro and is struggling to combat the rise in powerful Grass-types. However, it does fit well on the tier’s popular bulky offensive builds, can find several setup opportunities, and can circumvent its paper weaknesses to certain Pokemon via Pressure stalling. It’s a bit of a mixed bag, though the arguments for a drop are currently quite valid.

Azelf B+ -> B
The main reason an Azelf drop is being considered is that hyper offense, the only playstyle it is really viable on, has been declining slowly in viability over time. It still has a decent amount of versatility with Nasty Plot of Life Orb Stealth Rock sets to add on to its Focus Sash sets, but these pluses may not outweigh its opportunity cost to use outside of the struggling playstyle of HO. For this reason, it is being proposed for a possible drop to B.

Raikou B -> B-
Raikou is in a somewhat similar position to Mega Manectric; the rising viability of Hippowdon and Rhyperior are detrimental to it, and the rising popularity of Alolan Muk doesn't help it either. Raikou has difficulty placing itself on teams due to its rather mediocre defensive typing and the opportunity cost of running it as your Z-Move user. It simply doesn't provide as much defensive utility as Mega Manectric does as an Electric-type due to its inability to OHKO Scizor. Raikou also lacks in power as a Calm Mind sweeper, and it sometimes has extreme difficulty bypassing boosted Water-types like Suicune and Mega Slowbro. However, Raikou's ability to set up against Pokemon like Moltres and Togekiss and reliably pressure Latias with Never-Ending Nightmare may still give it enough reason to remain in B.

Rhyperior B- -> B
Rhyperior has been gaining a lot of traction lately as a Pokemon capable of being an answer to Mega Pidgeot, Mega Manectric, and Moltres for offensive teams while also providing Stealth rock support, which could cause it to be B material. However, Rhyperior struggles heavily with the common Grass- and Water-types in the tier like Breloom and Swampert, and it also has major competition with Swampert due to Swampert's ability to be a significantly better answer to Mega Aerodactyl.

Decidueye C+ -> B-
Decidueye is a pretty potent stallbreaker and sweeper right now due to the archetype’s current viability and the presence of Mega Slowbro, a Pokemon it can set up on fairly adequately. It also appreciates the decreased viability of highly offensive builds, though its mediocre physical bulk and Speed and midding power even after boosts could reasonably keep it in C+.

Rotom-H C+ -> B-
It compresses roles quite nicely in the current metagame and could reasonably rise due to this. Reliably checking Scizor, matching up extremely well against currently popular Flying-types like Moltres and Pidgeot, and checking other threats such as Mega Manectric, Togekiss, and Serperior is quite valuable. However, its typing is both Stealth Rock-weak and can leave it vulnerable to the Water-types its Electric-typing should allow it to pressure. Rising and staying in C+ are both fair possibilities right now.

Tsareena C+ -> B-
Tsareena is extremely potent right now. It adequately checks one of the most centralizing Pokemon around in Breloom, takes advantage of the rise of Ground-types, and applies pressure to the recently introduced Mega Slowbro, which is very impressive for a physical attacker. Arguments against rising include the popularity of several Fire-types, its paltry Speed tier, and its inconvenient typing, though whether those outweigh its perks enough to stay C+ is worth discussing.


Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Be sure to talk about these discussion points as well as those that may come up on account of Azumarill leaving the tier. Be kind to one another, and happy posting! :)
 
Mega Manectric from A+ to A: Agree.

As Sage said, meta trends are not in this things favor. Things like Rhyperior, Swampert, Latias, Hydreigon, etc just annoy it to no end. Not to mention its not in the same region as things like Mega Aerodactyl. VoltTurn is kind of falling out as well. It offers very little defensive utility besides its ability, Intimidate. Idk, I just never saw this thing as A+.

Suicune from A to A-: Hard Disagree.

This mon is super annoying for many bulky offense builds. It likes the recent meta trends in the Rhyperior hype as well. Despite the fact it has competition from Mega Bro, I think Suicune has a few things over it: mainly not taking up a mega slot and not suffering as much 4MSS as Mega Bro can find.

Azelf from B+ to B: Agree.

HO is kinda dead right now, Psychic type is ass, theres not really much to say. Not to mention Nasty Plot, while good against bulkier builds, is not very good against offense.

Raikou from B to B-: Agree.

Same reason as Mega Manectric, faces competition from other Electric types such as Rotom-Heat and Rotom-C.

Rhyperior from B- to B: Agree.

Ill make this brief since this has already been said, but Rhyperior is excellent. Its a non-passive Mega Manectric check, rocker, and bird check all in one Pokemon. It also soft checks non-Aqua Tail Mega Aero.

Decidueye from C+ to B-: Disagree.

On top of being practically nonexistant usage-wise, it dislikes to popularity of Mega Aggron and the uprising of Moltres stall. Its also completely reliant on its Z-Move sometimes.

Rotom-H from C+ to B-: Agree.

This mon is really nice as a Scizor check and Defogger. Its typing and ability in Levitate allows it to check prominent threats such as Gliscor, Mega Manectric, etc.

Tsareena from C+ to B-: Agree.

Band Tsareena is really nice right now and pressures things like Rhyperior, Breloom, Hippowdon, and even walls CB Scizor locked into Bullet Punch. A physical mon that actually beats Mega Slowbro is really nice in this current meta.

Dont have any personal noms to make yet. Thank you for reading.
 
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Tsareena from C+ to B-: Agree
Dope breaker that hits actually insanely hardly. With Band, power whip is extremely hard to switch into and takes advantage of meta trends like bulky water, Rhyperior, and slowbros. Avoiding Priority is also very nice in many situations. B- is exactly where it belongs.

Decidueye from C+ to B-: Disagree
idk why this keeps getting suggested?? Tsareena does the stallbreaking job generally much better with a choice band a much stronger grass stab attack, also with better physical bulk and a much more useful ability. Decidueye may have the ghost type and SD, but it's hard to get SD up in a meta full of offensive threats, and ghost typing isn't that great in the metagame right now. when unboosted it is very weak and C+ is where it belongs.

Rhyperior from B- to B: Agree
I understand Rhyperior has difficulties with bulky waters and faces competition from Swampert, but what really sets Rhyperior apart is it's excellent attack, it's great ability, and the Rock typing. While Rock may give it big weaknesses to grass and water types, it also grants it key resistances against Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane, Mega-Manetric"s Overheat, and Alolan-Muk's Gunk shot, and much more. Slappable mon on a team to a check a plethora of threats, and as long as you have a decent answer to waters on your team, Rhyperior will perform very very well.

Mega-Manetric from A+ to A: Somewhat Agree
On one hand it hits super hard and can nail certain electric switch-ins with a powerful Overheat, and having a great ability in Intimidate, but on the other hand Mega-Manetric is struggling to keep up with meta trends, and it's not very hard to see why. It sorely lacks coverage moves in it's movepool to deal with these emerging bulky ground types in the meta, and while it has hidden power ice, it doesn't really deal enough to stop them from taking advantage of it.
 
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Oh boy, it's about that time again where we talk about this Mega again:

Nominating
from B to B+ (Maybe A-)

Recent rising meta trends are in this thing's favour again, the departure of Amoonguss especially. While it is true that bulky Grass-Types such as Celebi, Rotom-Cut and even Vileplume are rising due to trying to fill the void for Amoonguss for Breloom, really only Celebi and the niche Vileplume take on Sceptile out of the three. Even then, Celebi has a high chance of being 2HKO WITH Leftovers after rocks by Dragon Pulse if it isn't a bulky variant and Vileplume generally run more of an Defense investment to check Breloom better, so it has a higher chance of being 2HKO after rocks (97.7% chance without SpDef investment). Rotom-Cut can't dent it without Hidden Power Ice, which they don't run because they run Defog/Will-O-Wisp. Another a little thing while on the topic of Grass-Types is that it also acts as a Semi-Spore check for Breloom, which can lead to some mind games when Breloom should click Spore (especially when weakened, cause Breloom takes 87.7 - 103.4% from Dragon Pulse).

The rising trend of Ground-Types benefit this Pokemon due to it being able to put strong offensive pressure on them, especially Hippowdon (lacking Ice Fang) and Swampert as they're more passive out of the big three. Rhyperior you still have to be cautious switching into due to it being a strong Rock-Type attacker as well, and the fact it also learns Ice Punch (which is used for Gliscor). Though once you're in with Sceptile you get huge offensive pressure, especially Substitute sets. Not only that, Sceptile pressures Mega Slowbro which is proving to be a strong sweeper in the meta-game right now.

Sure, Pokemon like Mega Altaria which deals with Sceptile have gotten better as well due to Amoonguss leaving and Alola-Muk is still as great as ever. It still faces competition with Serperior, but time and time again Serperior's viability has been looked at due to it lacking immediate strong offensive stats which Sceptile is better straight off the bat with. Overall, though I can't see why this Pokemon can't at least rise one sub-rank, especially with these meta trends.
 
Oh boy, it's about that time again where we talk about this Mega again:

Nominating
from B to B+ (Maybe A-)

Recent rising meta trends are in this thing's favour again, the departure of Amoonguss especially. While it is true that bulky Grass-Types such as Celebi, Rotom-Cut and even Vileplume are rising due to trying to fill the void for Amoonguss for Breloom, really only Celebi and the niche Vileplume take on Sceptile out of the three. Even then, Celebi has a high chance of being 2HKO WITH Leftovers after rocks by Dragon Pulse if it isn't a bulky variant and Vileplume generally run more of an Defense investment to check Breloom better, so it has a higher chance of being 2HKO after rocks (97.7% chance without SpDef investment). Rotom-Cut can't dent it without Hidden Power Ice, which they don't run because they run Defog/Will-O-Wisp. Another a little thing while on the topic of Grass-Types is that it also acts as a Semi-Spore check for Breloom, which can lead to some mind games when Breloom should click Spore (especially when weakened, cause Breloom takes 87.7 - 103.4% from Dragon Pulse).

The rising trend of Ground-Types benefit this Pokemon due to it being able to put strong offensive pressure on them, especially Hippowdon (lacking Ice Fang) and Swampert as they're more passive out of the big three. Rhyperior you still have to be cautious switching into due to it being a strong Rock-Type attacker as well, and the fact it also learns Ice Punch (which is used for Gliscor). Though once you're in with Sceptile you get huge offensive pressure, especially Substitute sets. Not only that, Sceptile pressures Mega Slowbro which is proving to be a strong sweeper in the meta-game right now.

Sure, Pokemon like Mega Altaria which deals with Sceptile have gotten better as well due to Amoonguss leaving and Alola-Muk is still as great as ever. It still faces competition with Serperior, but time and time again Serperior's viability has been looked at due to it lacking immediate strong offensive stats which Sceptile is better straight off the bat with. Overall, though I can't see why this Pokemon can't at least rise one sub-rank, especially with these meta trends.
Going to agree, and also confirm SD M-Sceptile is not a low ladder meme, the ability to take out M-Alt and Togekiss with a boosted Iron Tail and lure A-Muk with EQ is really useful since it can provide specific team support. Getting set-up opportunities isn't even that hard since you force out common ground-types like Hippo and Pert, and you're also a fantastic Serp w/o DPulse check since Lightning Rod prevents Glare. And while you may be thinking that the SD set would actually be outclassed by Loom, it's actually not because of a much better speed tier and more bulk, ofc I understand there are some things like Molt and Vileplume holding it back, but with Rhyperior getting more popular and Vileplume being easier to pressure than Amoonguss, I think it could honestly become as common as the special attacking set. B+ seems like a good place for it, though A- also still sounds okay.
 
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Going to agree, and also confirm SD M-Sceptile is not a low ladder meme, the ability to take out M-Alt and Togekiss with a boosted Iron Tail and lure A-Muk with EQ is really useful since it can provide specific team support. Getting set-up opportunities isn't even that hard since you force out common ground-types like Hippo and Pert, and you're also a fantastic Serp w/o DPulse check since Lightning Rod prevents Glare. And while you may be thinking that the SD set would actually be outclassed by Loom, it's actually not because of a much better speed tier and more bulk, ofc I understand there are some things like Molt and Vileplume holding it back, but with Rhyperior getting more popular and Vileplume being easier to pressure than Amoonguss, I think it could honestly become as common as the special attacking set. B+ seems like a good place for it, though A- also still sounds okay.
im a bit iffy for a rise since grass types are still in the forefront of everyones mind when team building due to Breloom so checks are rather common. also if u reveal SD most people wouldn't just stay in with their EQ weak muk or altaria and without a boost neither OHKoes so at best u can can chunk for another sweeper but idk :/ I think the meta still needs to settle a bit before seeing its true viability
 

dingbat

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS DEFAULT AVATAR
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
i think loom should go s rank now because spore has become so deadly that nothing aside from niche shit like vileplume or tangela can consistently check loom without the risk of either getting immobilized by sleep or getting cucked by a 4-5 hit bullet seed which i’ve seen completely fuck over supposed resists like Latias. additionally, pursuit support from muk/aero is literally all it needs to completely run through an opponent’s team now lol

megaman should drop to a rank as the rise in ground type checks has put a sufficient damper on its pivoting effectiveness to warrant the drop. i won’t be surprised if more ppl start running hp grass though.

suicune should definitely drop to a-; the rise in grass types definitely gives it quite a few issues, especially when dragons and birds are being utilized over fire types to check them.

lucario should drop too cause it doesn’t do anything particularly notable atm to stay in b
 
breloom to S agreed

breloom is just too good
as mentioned in the disucction thread this mon as no real switch ins
and ofc we lost ammo and sap sipper azu to deal with it
this mon should be banned tbh but for the time being just put this thing in s rank to let everyone know that it is a brokenly disgusting thing

suicune drop to A- agreed
breloom.

mega mane to A agreed
this mon is too one diamentional + the surge of pert hippo and rhyperior makes it much worst than before
not useless but A seems fair for him rn
 
I guess being in the middle of a snowstorm is a good time to make a VR post...

i think loom should go s rank now because spore has become so deadly that nothing aside from niche shit like vileplume or tangela can consistently check loom without the risk of either getting immobilized by sleep or getting cucked by a 4-5 hit bullet seed which i’ve seen completely fuck over supposed resists like Latias. additionally, pursuit support from muk/aero is literally all it needs to completely run through an opponent’s team now lol
Breloom.png
Strongly disagree with this nomination, Loom just doesnt strike me as S rank. Although its potentially the most unhealthy mon in the tier, this doesnt mean its S rank material. Its frail as shit (60/80/60 bulk for reference), has a bad defensive typing, has mediocre speed (though this doesnt mean its easy to revenge), and isnt as splashable or versatile as the things in S.

Sylveon.png
I would like to nom Sylveon to A-. Sylveon + Mega Aggron is as good as ever, and its WishPassing support is really good. Its decently splashable, pairing well with mons such as Gliscor, Latias, etc. Fairy is super good defensively and it checks threats such as Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, etc.

Mega_Sceptile.png
Disagree with Mega Sceptile moving up, the meta still needs to adjust to the Azumarill ban and Amoonguss rising. Breloom checks like Togekiss and Mega Altaria are becoming more common, so it rarely finds time to shine in this meta. It also doesn't appreciate the rise of Rhyperior being used over alternate choices such as Swampert or Hippowdon, since it cant freely switch due to the risk of being hit by an Ice Punch. Its an okay Breloom check, however it gets smacked by Facade.

Togekiss.png
This might cause some rebuttal, but I feel Togekiss is A rank in the current meta. Its very good in the current meta, being able to check Breloom, Serperior, Hydreigon, etc in one slot is huge for many offensive teams. You could argue the Rhyperior wave stops it from rising, however Togekiss can actually beat Rhyperior with some prior chip if its not running Stone Edge:

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 108-127 (24.9 - 29.3%) -- 7.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

16+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 170-200 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thats all for now. Ciao!
 
togekiss to A agreed
it is the best fairy bar alt
and alt takes a mega slot
togekiss has a lot more potential, as it checks also loom and serp


for my own nom
Empoleon to A-
one of the best defogers in the format, and a defensive steel type that can use both sr and defog is valuable
shuca set can beat gliscor 1v1
beats sczior without superpower
lati cant even touch it
therefore I think this mon deserves A-

having a uu tour rn now come join..
https://discord.gg/WAgatQU
 
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I nominate Rotom-H C+ to B (maybe B+)

Now I know most of you think this is a big ass jump but Rotom-h just got SO much better with azumarill going and I think that it personally deserves to B

Rotom-Heat @ Iapapa Berry/Leftovers/ Z Fire

Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp/Painsplit

So as I mentioned earlier with Azumarill leaving Rotom-h has become so much more viable and actually a pretty good mon. This mon is a very nice check to very common mons like Scizor, Gliscor, Serperior (If rocks arent up) You can even maybe check breloom as well since you outspeed and can will-o/overheat it. Rotom-h beats pretty much every common rocker thats not named swampert and can defog/voltswitch knowing they will most likely switch the rockers that it beats are gliscor/hippowdown/cobalion/m-aggron which are all seen a fairly good amount. A weakness of this mon is that big rocks weakness making it hard to switch into mons like Serperior because rocks + 2 leafstorms would kill it. Also since atm UU has lots of volt turn when rotom-h switches into a mon when rocks are up like M-manectric, Scizor, Gliscor's (u-turn) they get momentum and can switch out to a mon that can threaten you which makes rotom-h take all that rocks damage + the volt/u-turn damage and is forced to switch out. Some good things that are really good about this mon tho is will-o-wisp and painsplit. Painsplit helps this mon not get worned down by rocks so easily and keeps it decently healthy although it isnt a very reliable way of keeping your rotom-h healthy its still nice to have. Will-o-wisp is a big one for mons like M-aeroactyl that might come in on the switch thinking you will overheat or defog. Rotom-h also has an AMAZING ability aka Levitate. Levitate lets it beat all the rockers in the meta (not counting swampert) Rotom-h has a 4x weakness to ground but levitate completely ignores that 4x and makes it immune to it so it can switch into mons like gliscor, hippowdown, M-aggron pretty safely. It has a very nice speed stat of 86 allowing it so outspeed threats like nidoking and heracross It also outspeeds every base 70 and 80's (not scarf). On to the next set!

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Trick/Defog/Hp Ice

Choice Scarf Rotom-h outspeeds threat's like M-aerodactyl, Serperior, M-manectric, Cobalion, Gengar, M-pidgeot, M-beedrill . Rotom-h can pretty much just voltswitch or overheat on everymon I just named. A really nice thing to have about scarf Rotom is trick. If your team cant break through mons like sylveon, blissey, swampert's then you can trick it and you wont be locked into an electric move if they have a ground type as you can switch inbetween overheat/electric move. I'd say the role of scarf rotom is to just outspeed all these threat's that I named and threaten them out and by doing that you should get momentum with the volt switch allowing one of your breakers to do their job and break through the team. I suggest having some sort of hazard removal though if you are using scarf rotom-h as it will allow it to switch in and get momentum much more safely without taking a long portion of your health or possible dying since you usually dont wanna be locked into defog. Thats it for my rotom-h post! :]

(p.s I love Hilo)
 
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quick recap of the main discussion points and then a nom of my own
Mega Manectric A+ -> A
agree, megamane is falling fast as an electric type in the current meta, it still basically forces teams to run a ground-type but considering every team nowadays runs some variation of swampert/krookodile/hippowdon/rhyperior to stop megamane volt-turn it simply can't get its job done. it also can't afford to run coverage to hit these mons because swampert/rhyp die to hp grass but that leaves it incapable of touching hydreigon/lati/kommo/all the other dragons in the tier and also leaves it unable to touch gliscor, which is a very common mon in the tier.
Suicune A -> A-
hard disagree. suicune is a great mon in the current meta and a lot of teams are underpreparing for vincune because suicune is dropping a bit in usage, i still think it's a dominant threat in the meta rn and something you can't really ignore in teambuilding. i think it's perfectly capable of just winning in a ton of matchups and considering it can check top threats like aero/ape/chandelure i think it deserves to stay where it is (not to mention vincune is so good vs. stall, a very good playstyle rn)
Azelf B+ -> B
agree, HO simply isn't that good rn and azelf doesn't really find a niche anywhere else. not a ton to say about it, if HO gets better then maybe azelf moves back up but for now its main niche in the tier is just a lil weak.
Rhyperior B- -> B
agree, the rock is just really tanky and takes on a large majority of the tier rn, azu leaving was really good for rhyperior and its main downsides rn are the prevalence of grass types as a result of breloom being such a threat and how easily it's worn down, but it's certainly one of the better sr users in the tier rn and I think B is a good spot for it.
Decidueye C+ -> B-
disagree, i've tried using decidueye a bit myself but it just feels really overwhelming. it doesn't really check breloom all that well if it's a LO set and decidueye is so reliant on having a z-move to break through stall that it takes up a slot on your team to do a job that a lot of other 'mon can do much better. maybe if decidueye starts getting used more in uupl and the like and people can show me it's good at its job i'll agree with the move but for now i can't support it.
Rotom-H C+ -> B-
hard agree, rotom-h is a fantastic mon in the current meta - i would support as high as B or even B+ - and the fact that it's in C+ is a travesty. it checks a ton of stuff in the current meta like scizor, aggron, pidgeot, moltres, etc and it has access to volt switch for momentum as well as some solid utility moves in WoW and pain split for semi-reliable recovery; additionally, it has defog which can be spammed on the plethora of mons it forces out for free. i think the only thing that keeps me from saying it should be A- is because it's easily worn down by sr, loses to a large majority of the tier's SR users making it a very unreliable defogger, and without reliable recovery or great bulk
Tsareena C+ -> B-
agree, tsareena is a really good mon in the meta rn being able to check breloom very well and come in on bulky waters practically for free as long as it doesn't get scald burned. it's notably the only real viable grass-type physical attacker (barring sd m-sceptile, which isn't particularly good) which gives it an important niche and it has two viable sets, both a rapid spin set and the even better cb set with u-turn momentum and knock off to punish chandelures.

finally, my main nom is heracross to b+. while it does have a good matchup vs. stall, most standard flame orb heracross sets don't run stone edge, which makes breaking through stuff like togekiss and moltres (very common on slower teams) much more difficult. additionally, with the prevalence of maero/pidgeot/moltres/latias/infernape/chandelure and others on offense heracross has a really hard time switching in on those teams and getting more than one hit off at a time, as it's notoriously slow and weak to some of the tier's most spammable moves rn. i think its usage in uupl last week as well as its dropping usage on ladder demonstrate that it's falling off a lot. i understand if this nom is not considered seriously, but i think it's a point of discussion that should be considered. thanks for reading this massive wall of text. :]
 
Hi, here's my thoughts on some of the discussion mons

Mega Manectric A+ -> A Agree
There's actually so many people using hippo now just because of how easy it is to fit on teams. A combination of hippos popularity lately and the rhyperior hype makes manectric just seem more and more underwhelming when facing up against teams w these mons.



Azelf B+ -> B Agree
HO has fallen off as a playstyle, and since azelfs best set is being a suicide lead, it's a rather mediocre mon when it's home playstyle is in such a rough spot rn. It's got like some choice sets but I would never consider these sets at a B+ ranking.



Decidueye C+ -> B- Agree
There's really only a handful of pokemon in uu that resist both of decidueye's stab moves. With this in mind it has so many opportunities to setup, or just click z spirit shackle, usually leading to just nuking something. It feels very loom-esque, minus the ability to click spore of course, but decidueye can come in on so many of the popular rockers in the tier, while also beating the majority of them 1v1. This being said it's strong point is definitely the abilty to rip apart fatter teams, as well as stall as sometimes when a decidueye is behind a sub there is so little a stall team can actually do to it.

There are answers to this thing, yes, but with some prior chip to these mons decidueye can still just flat out kill them, as an unboosted sinister arrow raid can do up to half hp to its checks. Also, being a soft check to breloom rn (although it can actually get ohko'd by a 5 hit lo bullet seed but this is unlikely and you are of course immune to spore/mach punch) , and it's ability to act as a wallbreaker with such a strong z-move AND a cleaner makes me really want to support its rise.

Just some calcs to help convince you:
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 280-330 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 309-364 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
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finally, my main nom is heracross to b+. while it does have a good matchup vs. stall, most standard flame orb heracross sets don't run stone edge, which makes breaking through stuff like togekiss and moltres (very common on slower teams) much more difficult. additionally, with the prevalence of maero/pidgeot/moltres/latias/infernape/chandelure and others on offense heracross has a really hard time switching in on those teams and getting more than one hit off at a time, as it's notoriously slow and weak to some of the tier's most spammable moves rn. i think its usage in uupl last week as well as its dropping usage on ladder demonstrate that it's falling off a lot. i understand if this nom is not considered seriously, but i think it's a point of discussion that should be considered. thanks for reading this massive wall of text. :]
I disagree with this nomination. Togekiss is actually 2HKOed by Facade after rocks guaranteed, as is Moltres. While it does have a tough time against offense, its main niche is as a powerful stallbreaker that also does well vs many fatter teams which are quite common right now. I don't think its m/u vs offense is too bad, as it can switch into most rockers like Swampert/Rhyperior and threaten them out. Offense just completely lacks switch ins for this mon. The mons you listed do hurt it, however they all can't switch in to its coverage moves. 85 speed isn't too bad either (being faster than mons like Mega Altaria is cool I guess). I do think its usage in the ladder/uupl is decreasing however.

Speaking of Swampert, I would like to nom it to A. This is a super splashable mon and is very good at doing its job. While its usage is declining due to Rhyperior hype, it soft checks so much of the meta like Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl (a cool thing about Swampert is that it doesn't have to risk Aqua Tail on Mega Aerodactyl, while if you use Rhyperior you have to resort to another check), etc. You could argue Breloom usage increasing is a reason for it to not rise, however Breloom should never hard switch risking a Scald and even if it does, Earthquake does a good amount.
 
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