USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

Hola mates,

Vileplume to B-: STRONG AGREE
Is it as good as Amoonguss? FUCK no... but is it prolly the closest we can get to using Amoonguss in the tier? Yes. I was the one who nommed this thing to get on the vr in the first place, and after that I didn't use it for a while, cause at the end of the day we have Amoonguss, so why tf would I use Vileplume ?_?. Well now Amoonguss is gone, Strength Sap is broken and so is Azu. This thing is much better than Venusaur as an Amoon replacement imo, mainly because of it actually having a semi decent ability, and Strength Sap is so fuckin disgusting. Ban Azu.

Zoroark to C: NAH FAM
Why? This mon is a gimmick that rarely actually ever works.

Mega Shark to A: YUH

This mon is a disgusting cleaner. It's ability + movepool + high atk stat is absurd. This mon is a Physical mon that breaks through Mega Slowbro, that's nuts. Shark is literally Jesus Christ to offense players. Also Amoon can usually eat Psychic Fangs and now it's gone. Move it up lads.

Mega Steelix to C+: NO

This mon does so many things, issa Lati check, elec immunity, rocker, phaser, etc. Yes, it is usually outclassed by Mega Aggron, but Mega Manectric is fuckin everywherrreeee, making a team without an electric immunity is like the dumbest thing ever to me. M-Aggron often forces you to fit an elec immunity elsewhere, when the rocker is usually the easiest place to put one. It isn't uncommon at all for me to be like "hmm maggron would be cool here but I need elec immunity, oh, Lix." Also whenever I use it, it rarely lets me down or underwhelms me.


Rhyperior to B-: YEYE
Rock is an important typing because it resists fire and flying, which is like the most annoying shit of all time. I spam Nihilego cause I hate switching into Moltres and Mega Burd so fuckin much. This thing gives some great role compression w/ the fact that it's a rock type, and an elec immunity. If you have 5 mons on a squad, and you hard lose to both Mega Manectric and Moltres, this mon literally patches all that shit. It's dope.

Toxicroak to C+: WYNAUT
Yeah I've used this mon a decent bit recently. It's like, death fodder every game... As long as Gliscor is in the tier, I don't see it being too amazing. It's still good enough to be ranked, but just barely. Suicune is fuckin disgusting, like it's an electric immunity tbh... so having something that just hard walls tf out of it is dope, but with the fact that Gliscor and other b
 
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B+ Rank
Moltres

Have you ever looked at that and wondered, "Why in the name of everything is that mon ranked B+?" Well I have and I honestly thought someone would have nominated it by now but no one has. I use Moltres on a hyper offense team and I kid you not, every game I lead Moltres and just click its Z move and just mercilessly punch holes in my opponents team. Although inhibitted by a 4x weakness to rocks this Pokemon proves time and time again that it is one of the strongest and most relevant wall breakers and sweepers in this meta. Welcome to my 1 AM nomination enjoy what might be incoherent but hopefully sound rambling.

Very few Pokemon can switch in to Moltres. Off the top of my head I can name these few: Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey, Empoleon, Nihilego, Rhyperior (Thanks to Dodmen for starting the wave :D), Muk-Alola, Mantine and then Stakataka, Tentacruel, and Swampert to an extent. That's about 7 solid checks and a few softer checks. Let me break down how well these Pokemon wall Moltres. Of these only Blissey and Mantine have reliable Recovery, also Z Haze Tentacruel and Roost Mega Aerodactyl. The rest of the afformentioned Pokemon are worn down by Moltres' powerful STAB attacks at hazards. Moltres has the ability to U Turn and use Agility for possible sweeping potential as well as having a lot of versatility in being capable of using Life Orb, Choice Specs and Scarf, Z move, or even a defensive set on stall.

That brings me to my next point. As shown very wonderfully by Hikari stall, Moltres' ability to PP stall and relieve rocks from the field, as well as poisoning other Pokemon is very useful. Paired with Registeel, a new face on VR, Moltres is a terrifying Pokemon to break.

Now that I have touched base with what checks Moltres and what it does it's time to talk about what Moltres checks and pressures. Moltres is a very much needed wall to Breloom, Scizor, and Mega Altaria. It's ability to burn those Pokemon, as well as other threatening physical attackers like Beedril, is very useful in offensive match ups. Having the ability to completely wall Gliscor is also very useful. I forgot a lot of the points I was originally going to make and I'm sure there is a lot more to be said about this Pokemon. Feel free to comment on my post or even disagree with me.

In conclusion I think Moltres should be moved up to A- or even A but I think that is too high for this Pokemon currently. That is all thanks for reading if you did, cheers! - itsjustdrew
 

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B+ Rank
Moltres

Have you ever looked at that and wondered, "Why in the name of everything is that mon ranked B+?" Well I have and I honestly thought someone would have nominated it by now but no one has. I use Moltres on a hyper offense team and I kid you not, every game I lead Moltres and just click its Z move and just mercilessly punch holes in my opponents team. Although inhibitted by a 4x weakness to rocks this Pokemon proves time and time again that it is one of the strongest and most relevant wall breakers and sweepers in this meta. Welcome to my 1 AM nomination enjoy what might be incoherent but hopefully sound rambling.

Very few Pokemon can switch in to Moltres. Off the top of my head I can name these few: Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey, Empoleon, Nihilego, Rhyperior (Thanks to Dodmen for starting the wave :D), Muk-Alola, Mantine and then Stakataka, Tentacruel, and Swampert to an extent. That's about 7 solid checks and a few softer checks. Let me break down how well these Pokemon wall Moltres. Of these only Blissey and Mantine have reliable Recovery, also Z Haze Tentacruel and Roost Mega Aerodactyl. The rest of the afformentioned Pokemon are worn down by Moltres' powerful STAB attacks at hazards. Moltres has the ability to U Turn and use Agility for possible sweeping potential as well as having a lot of versatility in being capable of using Life Orb, Choice Specs and Scarf, Z move, or even a defensive set on stall.

That brings me to my next point. As shown very wonderfully by Hikari stall, Moltres' ability to PP stall and relieve rocks from the field, as well as poisoning other Pokemon is very useful. Paired with Registeel, a new face on VR, Moltres is a terrifying Pokemon to break.

Now that I have touched base with what checks Moltres and what it does it's time to talk about what Moltres checks and pressures. Moltres is a very much needed wall to Breloom, Scizor, and Mega Altaria. It's ability to burn those Pokemon, as well as other threatening physical attackers like Beedril, is very useful in offensive match ups. Having the ability to completely wall Gliscor is also very useful. I forgot a lot of the points I was originally going to make and I'm sure there is a lot more to be said about this Pokemon. Feel free to comment on my post or even disagree with me.

In conclusion I think Moltres should be moved up to A- or even A but I think that is too high for this Pokemon currently. That is all thanks for reading if you did, cheers! - itsjustdrew
I disagree with this. The myriad of support Moltres needs in order to function well cannot be ignored in the slightest. Yes, its typing ability and movepool are all very well supported by the tier and gives Moltres the necessary breathing room to fulfill its role(s) well, but not at the point where it needs minimal support to fulfill these roles. That's what an A rank mon is, even one that's a A-. I cannot support this nom and think Moltres should definitely stay where it is. B+ is definitely as high as this thing can go right now.
 

dingbat

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moltres definitely has a- potential for a few particular reasons. i disagree that support such as necessary hazard removal should stop moltres from breaking into the a ranks since it has so many defining qualities that otherwise make it easily a solid a rank (not a-, but a) mon. its ability to fit on every single major team archetype imo is the biggest quality that clearly differentiates it from everything else in b+ ranks. this can probably wait til azu gets nuked from uu though.

with fungus gone, there is zero excuses for breloom to not rise to a+

sticking with my words that rhyp is more viable than megalix rn

lycanroc should probably be unranked; accelrock/suicide lead is cute and all but it literally does jack shit otherwise

zoroark definitely should not be ranked but at the same time, some of the reasoning i’m seeing is making me smh
 
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I’d like to nominate Tentacruel to A

Amoongus leaving has been amazing for this mon. It’s now one of the best switch ins to banded Azu that we have, particularly with Z-Haze and is the only bulky water switch that isn’t lured by Perish Trap (assuming poison move). With a poison move and 16+ speed Tenta also serves as a serviceable loom check, able to switch in, outspeed and OHKO loom, while continuing to screw with top tier threats in Scizor, Cobalion, Altaria, Beam Slowbro, Ape and more. However, the main reason I’m nominating it is because of the hugely increased viability of t spikes, particularly paired with vincune. As well as now having an even better stall matchup, balance, fat balance/semi stall and BO just lost their best t spikes absorber and answer to this core in the mushroom, (hence the common use of SubRoost Kyurem over cune as a Tenta partner before Amoongus left) and this core is hot as hell rn.
Tenta by itself has also become much more splashable thanks to its ability to deal with the two most broken mons in UU rn, Loom and Azu, as well benefiting from the rise in usage of slightly less common threats like Primarina.

As for the current discussion topics:

Disagree with Moltres rising, while it can function as an early game nuke it requires a lot of support to remain healthy throughout the game, meaning it often fails to check stuff like late game SD Scizor, Breloom (which also lures w tomb but whatever) and Cobalion.

Dingbat is spot on, Loom needs to go to A+ right now! Might do a proper nom later, if no one else does


Edit: wow BW sprites really are enormous
 

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moltres definitely has a- potential for a few particular reasons. i disagree that support such as necessary hazard removal should stop moltres from breaking into the a ranks since it has so many defining qualities that otherwise make it easily a solid a rank (not a-, but a) mon. its ability to fit on every single major team archetype imo is the biggest quality that clearly differentiates it from everything else in b+ ranks. this can probably wait til azu gets nuked from uu though.
It's not just necessary hazard removal that should stop Moltres from entering A ranks. Offensive Moltres (which are more popular than bulkier sets) rely on unreliable, albeit powerful moves that make you lose games, which amplify the need for long term planning and consideration when it comes to supporting Moltres. In these cases, you use Moltres for its ability to be a special Wallbreaker, and every player always "plans" for their clutch wallbreaking move to wallbreak. Yes z-flying is fantastic, but z-moves are inherently very powerful and Moltres is one of many Pokemon that can take advantage of a special wallbreaking move. Every other time, you need to hope you don't miss a clutch Hurricane or Fire Blast. If you do, you need to force yourself into a position where Moltres can a) either be used again, or b) you lose the turn and put yourself in a worse off position for the remainder of the battle: this can lead to Moltres being reduced to fodder especially when facing off against higher-level players that'll make you pay dearly for a clutch miss.

That's not to say that Moltres isn't good. B+ is a very good rank for a mon. Moltres is definitely good. I just can't see Moltres as this "archetype defining" mon that we mostly expect out of our As, even the A-s. You can't tell me Moltres does its job as well as something like Blissey or Aloma do as far as dedicated role effectiveness. Moltres is NOT the best wallbreaker. It's NOT the best Pressure mon. It's NOT the fastest, even for Fire-types. But what it is one of the best at is facing off against popular meta trends. Flying-type by virtue of typing alone is a fantastic offensive typing when coupled with Moltres's fantastic SpA and access to insanely powerful Fire-type moves for pesky Steel-types. It gives it the ability to crack through said trends early on or in a pinch. In fact, I'd argue that its ability to fit on any archetype is a testament to its anti-meta abilities, as opposed to its meta-trending ones. In other words, Moltres does not define the meta, it tears it apart. But it needs the necessary support to do so, including the potential support to prepare for a terribly timed miss. To me, these are clear indicators of needing more support than an A mon demonstrates.
 

Freeroamer

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I think anyone who's played UU recently can attest to this, but I think it would be massively underselling Rhyperior's place in the current metagame if at best in this slate, you move it just up to B- (A whole rank beneath Swampert!!!) What Rhyperior does for a squad is well documented within this thread already but those arguments should be used to push it a lot higher up in the rankings in my honest opinion, the amount of role compression it brings to a squad is to die for in this current metagame which is why I think it needs to be a lot closer to Swampert in viability. Me personally I would have Rhyp over Swamp on most teams right now but I get that's probably too much to ask for at the moment, so a raise to B+ would be what I suggest. In terms of pure splashability (the way I see these threads for the most part) this ranking would make sense as it's definitely more splashable than everything underneath it and to be honest most of the stuff around it. People need to stop using EQ / Ice Punch / Toxic sets though cos relying purely on Tox for Moltres is just kinda sad imo.

Steelix really could do with dropping I just don't see where I'd ever use it in this metagame, with another viable ground that adds a fly resist now being available, in general it's a shitty electric check and is outclassed by Aggron for everything else. It should probably drop into the C ranks as that would more accurately reflect where it's at right now.
 
I'd also like to echo what's been said about Rhyperior right now (BTW I still think Vileplume is B- worthy). It functions as an incredibly powerful Stealth Rocker and check to powerful threats like Moltres and, particularly, Mega Manectric (which is still everywhere), boasting an incredible ability to deal with some coverage Hidden Powers. It hits like a truck, easily killing everything it needs to with its exceptional offensive typing. This thing functions as exceptional role compression, and (even though it's been nominated for a rise) its current ranking of C really sells it short.

I was on board with a Rhyperior rise even before it became a point of discussion, but the past page or so since it became a point of discussion has been filled with good examples of its influence in and on the metagame as of recently. Rhyperior's rise in popularity now affects the viability of many other mons in the tier. For instance, many Water and Grass types appreciate this thing becoming popular because they prey on its weaknesses. Moltres and Mega Steelix drastically dislike this thing being good, one by being consistently checked by it and the other by being largely outclassed by it. I'm once again gonna be jumping the gun with this, but I'm gonna echo this nomination regardless:

Rhyperior from C to as high as B+: STRONGLY Agree. This thing is becoming incredibly good and I'd go so far as to say even B- sells it short despite its clear flaws.
 
I’ll give some thoughts:
Rhyperior rise- fuck yeah. I’m not sure it should rise all the way to b+ already, but the level of role compression it provides makes it clear it has to move up. I think it should move up to b- for now, and if it continues to be as good as it is now, then move it up again. Nothing good ever came from being hasty.

Vileplume rise- yes. Amoonguss leaving meaning there’s a lot more leeway for this flower here, and it checks a lot of what amoonguss checked and we all know how good that was. Obviously, it’s not as good as amoonguss was, but it 100% deserves to be in the b ranks rn. I think b isn’t even too much of a stretch. Really nice mon.

Tentacruel rise- yup. The z haze set is amazing rn, as a check to a lot of common things like azu, spinner, tspikes setter, and not passive to the point of getting set up on. It’s also an azu switchin that doesn’t get screwed by perish trap azu. Obviously, it can’t do every role at once, but it can fulfill so many roles on teams, that it fits on a lot of them rn, and def deserves a raise.

Mega lix drop- yaas, drop this garbage. Mega Aggron is amazing rn, and this thing’s outclassed to the point of “why bother?”. It has an electric immunity, sure, but it really struggles versus mega mane due to overheat, which means it doesn’t end up actually mattering. Mega Aggron + another ground type is just better in the meta rn, and this thing deserves a drop.

No opinion on the rest.
 
Mega Mane down to A. Two big reasons.

Meta trends: Lots of trends go against Mane right now and it's not on the same place it once was in the Rotom-W days. Counterplay is super defined to the point where its easy to abuse mane for free turns, the archetype its most prevalent on has fallen, checks are rising (Hippowdon + Rhyperior), basically Mega Mane doesn't scare you the way it used to. So many big threats come in on it for free to get rocks up, heal back, or threaten with strong stab moves. It has to click Volt / HP Ice or Grass 95% of the time, it's so one dimensional it hurts. Calm Sylveon, Kyurem, Rotom-H, Scarf Dragons, all these and more handle it with ease. Manectric has more become an idiot check on teambuilding than an actual threat to prepare for. If you don't bring a Volt Switch immunity sure you're going to have a hard time outplaying it. No good team will be caught dead without a Volt immunity, it doesn't seem like a reason to keep Manectric so high anymore.

Compared to A+: When I look at all the A+ rank threats, they all are threats to win games even when you have adequate counterplay to them. Altaria can run both physical and special sets and is rather hard to scout for, Aero has a million coverage options with Pursuit and Hone Claws as well, Hydreigon can run very effective lure sets as well as shutting down slower teams with Taunt or Specs, and Serperior has the power to muscle through its checks once they're even slightly weakened, as well having ways around checks through Leech Seed and Giga Drain among other things. The key word for all these pokemon is Versatility. All of them are hard to prep for and can beat you in different ways, something Manectric is utterly lacking in. Manectric is incredibly good at its job of being a pivot, but it can't do anything else and as that role has become less in demand with checks to it rising in usage / prevalence. I think Mane should go down a rank on the VR to show that.
 
Hello,

i wanna give my thoughts on Rhyperior.

Rhyperior is pretty good in the metagame right now, because it checks alot of stuff in the current metagame.
Most importantly it checks mega manectric from volt switching around, and is a momentum blocker.
It is also able to check nihilego, which lack grass knot to hit it super effectively.
It also does not fear mons like a-muk and mega pidgeot because it hits them both super effectively with earthquake / stone edge coverage.

I think rhyperior really deserves a rise as it has more than only one niche.
Rhyperior to B-
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Ranking Update
Azumarill was removed due to having been banned. Feel free to discuss what changes you'd like to see happen that are related to our loss of Azu, though as always, I encourage that you take your time on this particular kind of discussion since it's hard telling what specific impacts we'll see within these next couple days. With that out of the way, it's time to look at what changed this time around!

Rises
A -> A+
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
B -> B+
C -> B-
C -> C+
C- -> C


Drops
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C -> C-
Breloom’s influence has only increased since the latest tier shifts, as one of the few Pokemon capable of semi-comfortably defensively checking it is now gone. It absolutely warps the metagame around it enough to fit comfortably in A+ at this stage, considering that it currently puts one of the largest constraints on teambuilding. It is one of the most potent and defining setup sweepers in the tier, influences several of the metagame’s trends, and 100% deserves being at the top of the A ranks now that one of the biggest things holding back a rise in Amoonguss is no longer an issue.


Mega Sharpedo has had a bit of an odd time adjusting in a metagame that isn’t as dominated by Spikes offense, though despite both that and Breloom’s current presence it has found more recent viability. Comfortably standing up to one of the tier’s more centralizing forces in Mega Slowbro has made it a stronger pick, while it also benefits from being able to punish a lot of moves that common choice users often find themselves locked into, such as Choice Scarf Latias’s Psychic and Fire-type STAB from scarfers like Chandelure, Volcanion, and Infernape.


This was a bit of a controversial discussion topic though the ranking council ultimately voted in favor of rising Moltres, which currently brings a plethora of useful traits to both offensive and defensive builds. It’s an offensive menace and one of the hardest wallbreakers to switch into in the tier, and it defensively combats top-tier threats such as Breloom, Scizor, Infernape, and Cobalion. It’s been on a hot streak of responding to metagame trends really well and is only a stronger pick since Amoonguss’s departure due to the increased need to check Serperior and Breloom.


Celebi heavily struggled quite recently, though it has vastly improved and is now likely the best bulkier Grass-type the tier has to offer. Reliably checking Breloom is one of the most important traits it currently brings to the table, and now with Amoonguss gone Celebi has more room to pull off defensive sets without competition. Breaking past conventional Grass-type checks with its Nasty Plot + Groundium Z set is also a massively useful tool it has going for it in a metagame filled with Pokemon it lures in, and overall its increased versatility, splashability, and overall usefulness is certainly grounds for a rise from B.


Rotom-C brings more to the table than it ever has and its increased ease of use is being reflected with a rise to B+. It no longer has to struggle breaking past Amoonguss, enjoys the influx in relevance of Mega Manectric checks like Rhyperior and Hippowdon, switches into Scald reliably, and most notably pressures Mega Slowbro, which as mentioned before, is proving to be among the tier’s most centralizing sweepers. Its struggles are still present, though less so and not enough that its perks to being used are too offset.


There’s no denying that Rhyperior has experienced a massive surge in usage and viability. Its most important traits include checking Mega Manectric without being too passive, checking Flying-types, reliably setting Stealth Rock, and blanket checking a few fairly fairly defining physical threats. This has all justified its rise from C into the B rankings, though B+ is currently a little generous given its susceptibility to the tier’s several viable Grass-, Water-, and Fighting-types, as well as its slight suffrage of four-moveslot syndrome and its lack of recovery preventing it from always checking what it aims to check. It could still rise, as will be discussed later on, though from C to B+ in one shift was reaching a little too far for now.


Vileplume lost its main competition as a defensive Grass-type and this was reflected with a rise to C+. It checks a lot of what Amoonguss checked and has the added benefit of Strength Sap, though what’s currently preventing a rise to B- is the fact that it still isn’t used too much and has more apparent struggles than Amoonguss ever did. Its biggest flaw is its lack of Regenerator, which most notably prevents it from really working around things like Primarina if it’s hit by, say, Psychic on the switch, though the inability to necessarily function as a defensive pivot as opposed to just a defensive Pokemon can also hinder it in a few other matchups and makes it hard to automatically just fit onto teams that formerly carried Amoonguss.


This thing has been making its presence a lot more known on stall builds, and while Quagsire is still generally the optimal pick, Pyukumuku’s tools to distinguish itself are enough to rationalize a rise from C-. Better physical and special bulk, the ability to work around stallbreakers with Block, and dealing with some of what Quagsire can’t stand up to are all currently enough to move it up a bit.
This change wasn’t recently discussed but it was probably long overdue. The biggest perks that come with using Jellicent are hard checking Cobalion and Infernape, though otherwise it is quite hard to justify using recently given how many of the tier’s more powerful offensive Pokemon can overwhelm it due to its middling physical bulk. It is also one of the easiest bulky Water-types for the tier’s rising Grass-types to take advantage of, which further justifies falling a rank.


Another change that wasn’t discussed, but probably could have happened a while ago. Magneton’s whole niche stems from its ability to reliably remove Scizor and put in some work against a few other Steel-types, though its awful stats aside from its Special Attack really prevent it from contributing to teams it’s fitted on outside of performing this niche, which isn’t even mandatory. You’re more or less playing a 5v6 game every time you bring Magneton and the opponent isn’t using Scizor or Klefki, and that just isn’t a quality a Pokemon in B can realistically possess, though B- is certainly representative of what it can bring to teams.


Mega Steelix is struggling a bit to really stand out, and is better suited for B- rank at the time due to this. It doesn’t bring a lot to the table that isn’t also provided by Mega Aggron, especially considering that the Water-type weakness and lack of Filter significantly offset the Electric-type immunity, which isn’t even all too useful considering most Electrics have a way or two of punishing it. Its significantly increased competition from other Ground-types also hurts it, though checking Latias, which notably runs Electrium-Z sets more frequently, is a perk it possesses that among others prevents it from dropping any further.


Aurora Veil continues to decrease in consistency as a playstyle, which is why the archetype’s staples in Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash are dropping. Hippowdon’s notable uptick in usage prevents Alolan Sandslash from setting up with veil as easily as before, while the meta also generally favors play styles other than offense which increases the overall opportunity cost of using this duo.


People have been arguing for Toxicroak to drop since the generation began, and now it’s finally making its departure from B-. The main arguments for staying that high were its ability to combat popular threats in Suicune, Breloom, and Alomomola, though those valuable traits are offset by the vulnerability to Ground-types in a tier where Ground-types are rising, the massive competition it faces from about five other Fighting-type sweepers with more valuable teambuilding tools, and its general struggle to work around Mega Slowbro even when running Darkinium Z. Right now a drop is quite fair.


Hoopa is massively unproven and its poor Speed and physical bulk really hurt it in a metagame full of powerful physical attackers that just power through it like it’s nothing. It also faces pretty stiff competition from Gengar and Chandelure, which despite still having a niche, justifies a drop.


Umbreon can still match up extremely well against the majority of UU’s common special attackers, though it falls flat more frequently nowadays given that Breloom is so dominant. Other Fighting-types like Infernape and Cobalion are plenty popular as well, which in tandem with its heavily decreased usage justifies placement in C.


This thing really is just barely viable, and C- is what reflects its place in the metagame best. It isn’t a bad Pokemon, though it has a lot of competition as a Water-type wallbreaker and its main niche as a Webs setter isn’t too relevant considering Webs offense is quite bad. Araquanid’s drop is simply just on account of being rather unremarkable in comparison to the many other Pokemon it competes with.
Starmie A- -> A
Starmie doesn’t really have enough going for it either offensively or defensively to comfortably fit in A. Offensive sets are often hard to switch into, but less so than before given Blissey and Alolan Muk are more splashable than they’ve ever been. It also provides very little defensive utility to the teams it’s fitted on if pursuing an offensive role, which can limit its opportunities to spin hazards away without being weak.

Tentacruel A- -> A
While it’s certainly true that Tentacruel is better than before, it’s too easily overwhelmed on account of its lack of recovery and average physical bulk to be A. Checking powerful offensive Pokemon like Primarina and Infernape and dealing with Serperior and Breloom when running Poison-type STAB is certainly valuable, though the increased need to run Sludge Wave has exacerbated its four-moveslot syndrome, which alongside the above mentioned problems it runs into makes A- fair at this stage in the metagame.

Cofagrigus B- -> C+
Cofagrigus struggles more than before given the competition it faces and the prevalence of Alolan Muk, though this is what pushed it out of its B ranking when this thread was first started. Cofagrigus has a larger amount of relevant Pokemon that can defensively check it, though it still has the ability to claim a huge amount of kills against any team lacking these Pokemon once set up, and is enough of an anti-meta threat to stay afloat in the lower B ranks.

Mega Beedrill B- -> C+
The ranking council voted against putting this change through, as Mega Beedrill still has enough of a place in the metagame to justify staying above the C rankings. Recent trends have certainly hurt it a substantial amount, though it can provide teams with a few very valuable traits, such as the ability to revenge kill Serperior and Breloom and pressure Fairy-types. All in all, while mediocre compared to the threat it once was, Mega Beedrill still has enough going for it to maintain a B- ranking.

Swellow UR -> C-
Swellow runs into a few too many problems to warrant placement within the rankings for now. Choice Specs Boomburst is a pain for offense to deal with, though offense isn’t among the tier’s best play styles at the moment and Swellow itself fails to provide any defensive utility whatsoever. Being OHKOed by Breloom’s Mach Punch and even failing to come in on Scald from Swampert, which it can’t even OHKO from full, are a few of the more notable problems it faces due to its simply terrible bulk.

Discussion Points
Mega Manectric A+ -> A
Mega Manectric may still be a dominant force in the metagame with its blazing Speed and great defensive utility with Intimidate, but it's found itself struggling somewhat against the rise of Swampert, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior, which can all take advantage of it for free turns. That, combined with its lack of versatility, is making some question whether or not it's still good enough to be ranked in A+.

Suicune A -> A-
Suicune constantly seems to fluctuate ranks, and it’s being brought up for a drop again on account of its rather odd place in the current metagame. It has increased competition as a bulky Water-type sweeper from Mega Slowbro and is struggling to combat the rise in powerful Grass-types. However, it does fit well on the tier’s popular bulky offensive builds, can find several setup opportunities, and can circumvent its paper weaknesses to certain Pokemon via Pressure stalling. It’s a bit of a mixed bag, though the arguments for a drop are currently quite valid.

Azelf B+ -> B
The main reason an Azelf drop is being considered is that hyper offense, the only playstyle it is really viable on, has been declining slowly in viability over time. It still has a decent amount of versatility with Nasty Plot of Life Orb Stealth Rock sets to add on to its Focus Sash sets, but these pluses may not outweigh its opportunity cost to use outside of the struggling playstyle of HO. For this reason, it is being proposed for a possible drop to B.

Raikou B -> B-
Raikou is in a somewhat similar position to Mega Manectric; the rising viability of Hippowdon and Rhyperior are detrimental to it, and the rising popularity of Alolan Muk doesn't help it either. Raikou has difficulty placing itself on teams due to its rather mediocre defensive typing and the opportunity cost of running it as your Z-Move user. It simply doesn't provide as much defensive utility as Mega Manectric does as an Electric-type due to its inability to OHKO Scizor. Raikou also lacks in power as a Calm Mind sweeper, and it sometimes has extreme difficulty bypassing boosted Water-types like Suicune and Mega Slowbro. However, Raikou's ability to set up against Pokemon like Moltres and Togekiss and reliably pressure Latias with Never-Ending Nightmare may still give it enough reason to remain in B.

Rhyperior B- -> B
Rhyperior has been gaining a lot of traction lately as a Pokemon capable of being an answer to Mega Pidgeot, Mega Manectric, and Moltres for offensive teams while also providing Stealth rock support, which could cause it to be B material. However, Rhyperior struggles heavily with the common Grass- and Water-types in the tier like Breloom and Swampert, and it also has major competition with Swampert due to Swampert's ability to be a significantly better answer to Mega Aerodactyl.

Decidueye C+ -> B-
Decidueye is a pretty potent stallbreaker and sweeper right now due to the archetype’s current viability and the presence of Mega Slowbro, a Pokemon it can set up on fairly adequately. It also appreciates the decreased viability of highly offensive builds, though its mediocre physical bulk and Speed and midding power even after boosts could reasonably keep it in C+.

Rotom-H C+ -> B-
It compresses roles quite nicely in the current metagame and could reasonably rise due to this. Reliably checking Scizor, matching up extremely well against currently popular Flying-types like Moltres and Pidgeot, and checking other threats such as Mega Manectric, Togekiss, and Serperior is quite valuable. However, its typing is both Stealth Rock-weak and can leave it vulnerable to the Water-types its Electric-typing should allow it to pressure. Rising and staying in C+ are both fair possibilities right now.

Tsareena C+ -> B-
Tsareena is extremely potent right now. It adequately checks one of the most centralizing Pokemon around in Breloom, takes advantage of the rise of Ground-types, and applies pressure to the recently introduced Mega Slowbro, which is very impressive for a physical attacker. Arguments against rising include the popularity of several Fire-types, its paltry Speed tier, and its inconvenient typing, though whether those outweigh its perks enough to stay C+ is worth discussing.


Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Be sure to talk about these discussion points as well as those that may come up on account of Azumarill leaving the tier. Be kind to one another, and happy posting! :)
 
Mega Manectric from A+ to A: Agree.

As Sage said, meta trends are not in this things favor. Things like Rhyperior, Swampert, Latias, Hydreigon, etc just annoy it to no end. Not to mention its not in the same region as things like Mega Aerodactyl. VoltTurn is kind of falling out as well. It offers very little defensive utility besides its ability, Intimidate. Idk, I just never saw this thing as A+.

Suicune from A to A-: Hard Disagree.

This mon is super annoying for many bulky offense builds. It likes the recent meta trends in the Rhyperior hype as well. Despite the fact it has competition from Mega Bro, I think Suicune has a few things over it: mainly not taking up a mega slot and not suffering as much 4MSS as Mega Bro can find.

Azelf from B+ to B: Agree.

HO is kinda dead right now, Psychic type is ass, theres not really much to say. Not to mention Nasty Plot, while good against bulkier builds, is not very good against offense.

Raikou from B to B-: Agree.

Same reason as Mega Manectric, faces competition from other Electric types such as Rotom-Heat and Rotom-C.

Rhyperior from B- to B: Agree.

Ill make this brief since this has already been said, but Rhyperior is excellent. Its a non-passive Mega Manectric check, rocker, and bird check all in one Pokemon. It also soft checks non-Aqua Tail Mega Aero.

Decidueye from C+ to B-: Disagree.

On top of being practically nonexistant usage-wise, it dislikes to popularity of Mega Aggron and the uprising of Moltres stall. Its also completely reliant on its Z-Move sometimes.

Rotom-H from C+ to B-: Agree.

This mon is really nice as a Scizor check and Defogger. Its typing and ability in Levitate allows it to check prominent threats such as Gliscor, Mega Manectric, etc.

Tsareena from C+ to B-: Agree.

Band Tsareena is really nice right now and pressures things like Rhyperior, Breloom, Hippowdon, and even walls CB Scizor locked into Bullet Punch. A physical mon that actually beats Mega Slowbro is really nice in this current meta.

Dont have any personal noms to make yet. Thank you for reading.
 
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Tsareena from C+ to B-: Agree
Dope breaker that hits actually insanely hardly. With Band, power whip is extremely hard to switch into and takes advantage of meta trends like bulky water, Rhyperior, and slowbros. Avoiding Priority is also very nice in many situations. B- is exactly where it belongs.

Decidueye from C+ to B-: Disagree
idk why this keeps getting suggested?? Tsareena does the stallbreaking job generally much better with a choice band a much stronger grass stab attack, also with better physical bulk and a much more useful ability. Decidueye may have the ghost type and SD, but it's hard to get SD up in a meta full of offensive threats, and ghost typing isn't that great in the metagame right now. when unboosted it is very weak and C+ is where it belongs.

Rhyperior from B- to B: Agree
I understand Rhyperior has difficulties with bulky waters and faces competition from Swampert, but what really sets Rhyperior apart is it's excellent attack, it's great ability, and the Rock typing. While Rock may give it big weaknesses to grass and water types, it also grants it key resistances against Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane, Mega-Manetric"s Overheat, and Alolan-Muk's Gunk shot, and much more. Slappable mon on a team to a check a plethora of threats, and as long as you have a decent answer to waters on your team, Rhyperior will perform very very well.

Mega-Manetric from A+ to A: Somewhat Agree
On one hand it hits super hard and can nail certain electric switch-ins with a powerful Overheat, and having a great ability in Intimidate, but on the other hand Mega-Manetric is struggling to keep up with meta trends, and it's not very hard to see why. It sorely lacks coverage moves in it's movepool to deal with these emerging bulky ground types in the meta, and while it has hidden power ice, it doesn't really deal enough to stop them from taking advantage of it.
 
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