i don't mind using clauses, but if i had a choice, i would play without clauses. why? because i find that clauses take away from the game. not that i use anything against clauses, but i do think so. sleep clause does get annoying but if its not called you could always keep the poke thats asleep out. freeze clause i don't get. almost all teams have a poke with ice beam. what if someone called freeze clause, then you freeze them with it. you lose now, i win! it's part of the game. what are your opinions on clauses?
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Clauses
- Thread starter xBLUEx
- Start date
ohko, sleep, species are all necessary imo. the game would just get dumb without them. freeze is debatable due to the lack of a freeze move with any chance more than 10%. i dislike item clause as well, because frankly there are only a few items that are really all that useful...unless you want a team full of choice etc
ive always thought that clauses take away from the game.
the game was designed a certain way, if you dont like it that way dont play. things like sleep powder take some skill to execute well just like sweeping does. item clause, who cares about that. if a person wants to use the same item, let them, its nooobish anyway. most of us are better than that. OHKO clause, i mean, if you cant kill the opponent by the time it hits you....
except for evasion clause, i hate that shat.
double team is worse than a choice band groudon earthquaking a charmander
the game was designed a certain way, if you dont like it that way dont play. things like sleep powder take some skill to execute well just like sweeping does. item clause, who cares about that. if a person wants to use the same item, let them, its nooobish anyway. most of us are better than that. OHKO clause, i mean, if you cant kill the opponent by the time it hits you....
except for evasion clause, i hate that shat.
double team is worse than a choice band groudon earthquaking a charmander
you forgot the ubers clause. Noone wants to face arceus and variouis other ubers.
Sleep clause is really needed. have you ever had a match were it was off? you can probably imagin it would be extremely frustraiting...
IMO I'm for the standard clauses (Barring item) there was a reason most, if not all, were established
Sleep clause is really needed. have you ever had a match were it was off? you can probably imagin it would be extremely frustraiting...
IMO I'm for the standard clauses (Barring item) there was a reason most, if not all, were established
Freeze clause was implemented because some deucer was sick of getting frozen by Blizzard under Hail. Item clause doesn't work well if you want to have two walls, because you'll have to give the second one either Black Sludge (if Poison) or Lum Berry with Rest. Neither of these approaches work on certain pokemon, such as Bronzong or Dusknoir.
If you played enough to be a victim of such a thing you would be disagreeing with that.
Freeze clause is only really implemented on sims because you can actually control it to not freeze anything after something is already frozen, but in game you cant do anything to purposely freeze so yeah.
Freeze clause is only really implemented on sims because you can actually control it to not freeze anything after something is already frozen, but in game you cant do anything to purposely freeze so yeah.
Actually the Freeze clause was implemented back when Red/Blue first got released over here because back then, iirc, Freeze was actually permanent, so there was a very real danger of your opponent just Freezing your entire team and you loosing due to that.
Sleep Clause is imperative; you argue that you could just keep the sleeping Pokemon in, but that results in said Pokemon not being able to do anything. The sleeper could just KO it and move on to sleep the next Pokemon. Personally, I prefer to have all the standard clauses on (Sleep, Freeze, Evasion, OHKO, self-KO, etc.)
I'm going to go through each of the clauses here and outline my opinion on them rather than just arguing entirely one way or the other.
As for Sleep clause, I feel that's mandatory as stated before me, as a fast Sleeper can essentially take out the oppositions entire team. I could see Scarf Sleep Move running rampant otherwise.
Evasion clause is questionable, though personally I think the element of luck present in the game is enough, and remain happy not to get stuck in Double Team wars wasting PP.
Freeze clause, too, is questionably, and especially hard to enforce on WiFi. Since the only way to Freeze a Pokemon is via secondary effect, the notion of including the clause is somewhat neutered, unless we're specifically talking about play in simulators. Otherwise, it's impossible to prevent a player from breaking the clause (as unlikely as the event actually is).
The need for OHKO clause has never been more prominent what with all the accuracy boosting items there are now. If you move second, for example, Wide Lens can give you a 50/50 shot of a OHKO - that doesn't sound like a game I want to be mixed up in.
I don't feel that Self-KO is mandatory; the odds of getting into a situation where it could even be activated aren't really that high, and I actually wouldn't mind the option to tie an otherwise lost game in that sense. It seems counter-intuitive for a score of 0-0 to be considered anything but a tie, but it's not really a major qualm of mine.
The only clause I disagree with entirely is Item Clause, but by and large that isn't used in a competitive environment anyway.
On the whole, I do feel that clauses are necessary for the game to be played in a competitive sense, though can be abandoned if you wish to have fun playing the game "as is", though presumably that could only take place against friends over WiFi rather than in a competitive environment such as Smogon.
As for Sleep clause, I feel that's mandatory as stated before me, as a fast Sleeper can essentially take out the oppositions entire team. I could see Scarf Sleep Move running rampant otherwise.
Evasion clause is questionable, though personally I think the element of luck present in the game is enough, and remain happy not to get stuck in Double Team wars wasting PP.
Freeze clause, too, is questionably, and especially hard to enforce on WiFi. Since the only way to Freeze a Pokemon is via secondary effect, the notion of including the clause is somewhat neutered, unless we're specifically talking about play in simulators. Otherwise, it's impossible to prevent a player from breaking the clause (as unlikely as the event actually is).
The need for OHKO clause has never been more prominent what with all the accuracy boosting items there are now. If you move second, for example, Wide Lens can give you a 50/50 shot of a OHKO - that doesn't sound like a game I want to be mixed up in.
I don't feel that Self-KO is mandatory; the odds of getting into a situation where it could even be activated aren't really that high, and I actually wouldn't mind the option to tie an otherwise lost game in that sense. It seems counter-intuitive for a score of 0-0 to be considered anything but a tie, but it's not really a major qualm of mine.
The only clause I disagree with entirely is Item Clause, but by and large that isn't used in a competitive environment anyway.
On the whole, I do feel that clauses are necessary for the game to be played in a competitive sense, though can be abandoned if you wish to have fun playing the game "as is", though presumably that could only take place against friends over WiFi rather than in a competitive environment such as Smogon.
what i mean is, keep the sleeping pokemon in the 2nd turn just in case the opponent uses spore or whatever again. i have no opinon on sleep clause now since i just thought of a time where i had 3 guys left and 2 were sleeping. if i had any clause on, it would be sleep, but thats it.
Sleep clause is absolutely necessary, because sleep is a broken status condition. For instance, a smeargle with spore, agility, swords dance, and baton pass would be more or less unstoppable if it gets the first turn. I'm not saying there isn't a counter, but basically you would have to design your team around taking sleeps.
Evasion clause is somewhat similar. Double teaming would basically turn the battle into a game of chance, and don't try to bring up moves like Aerial Ace. Base 60 power doesn't cut it.
OHKO clause is just pure randomness.
Freeze clause is uncontrollable.
Item clause is unnecessary, I think.
Evasion clause is somewhat similar. Double teaming would basically turn the battle into a game of chance, and don't try to bring up moves like Aerial Ace. Base 60 power doesn't cut it.
OHKO clause is just pure randomness.
Freeze clause is uncontrollable.
Item clause is unnecessary, I think.
The once clause I actually don't get is Species Clause; while I can see this in something like doubles (a team full of Exploding Gengars or Lickillies would really be a pain in the ass, as if one wasn't annoying if you predicted wrong), I don't see how exactly it prevents standard from being broken. I mean, if you have two Blisseys or two Weaviles or something, doesn't that actually put you at a liability since you are both adding more weaknesses and adding more counters--if it killed your first Blissey, why not the second--not to mention decreasing diversity on your team. I mean, yes, there are pokemon like Infernape or Gengar or Salamence that could have multiple sets, but still, aren't you still putting yourself at a real disadvantage since there usually is a common counter and you have common weaks (I don't think it really matters what builds your three 'Mences run if they encounter an Ice Shard Mamoswine or something).
Of course, I'm probably just missing something obvious...
Of course, I'm probably just missing something obvious...
For species clause: Perhaps an entire team of smeargles...
...then i send out my infernape...
Does freeze clause prevent freezing or prevent more than one frozen pokemon on a team?
sleep clause is necessary, otherwise people will abuse sleep on almost every team, and breloom's usage would probably skyrocket
You need sleep clause.
What would you do to Speed Boost Hypnosis Yanmega...?
What would you do to Speed Boost Hypnosis Yanmega...?
Actually, Wide Lens boosts accuracy by 10% whether you move before or after your foe. You're thinking of Zoom Lens, which boosts accuracy by 20% if you move afterward. However, it doesn't boost accuracy by 20 percentage points, only by 20% of the original accuracy. So, moves at 30% accuracy would only move up to 36% percent accuracy. However, even this is misleading because changes to accuracy and evasion do not affect the success percentage of OHKO moves. In fact, if both Double Team and OHKOs were allowed, you might consider OHKO moves a counter for Double Team, since the success chance is 30% regardless of the foe's evasion modifier.
Masked Nitpicker...away!
Are you sure about that, can anyone confirm that? I don't have any OHKO Pokémon to test this out...
Freeze clause is like sleep clause only for freeze, that is it stops multiple freezings. Just for the sake of clarity.
Oh yeah, I always get those two items mixed up ...
Regardless, 30% chance of losing a Pokemon entirely is still pretty hefty, and that's why the clause stands.
No one would consider OHKO moves a counter for Double Team; the likelihood of both being allowed is small - Double Team has gone under testing but OHKO moves are widely rejected. There are many more counters for Double Team anyway such as Never Miss moves, Haze and Gravity (to an extent). The reason Double Team is disallowed is because it would cause a huge shift in the current metagame as people scrambled to take advantage of it and counter it. You can't really compare the use of OHKO moves to the use of Double Team.