I've been playing on ladder a lot over the past few days, and although I wish this test were not happening, I think the council is at least doing a pretty decent job with facilitating the test. No matter what, given the timeframe this test will be inherently flawed, and as a community it seems we have decided to accept that and take it for what it is, which is fine because the majority of the community seems to support it (the test).
i. Minor test suggestion
The one suggestion I have is to rework the reward for the live tours. I love this idea, but it is unbelievably difficult right now to achieve an 81% GXE with just 30 games because of three reasons: the way GXE works mathematically relative to the ladder, the "dead" nature of the ladder, and also the degree of difficulty to run something consistent right now as builds are currently very unpredictable -- ranging from double trap cheese to irrational sets and move combinations from players who probably have no idea what's going on, and to much more as well. I have many accounts with very high GXEs on the DPP ladder, so I'm not talking from a position where I am complaining about reqs being too hard to attain overall or from a position where I am not capable of attaining them. My suggestion is simply to increase the incentive and reward for the Live Tournaments by slightly lowering the required GXE to something like 78% and 30 games. I don't think achieving 78% over 30 games is that easy to do
right now, so I don't think that this reduction will let any "bad players" participate who otherwise shouldn't have anyway. Maybe I'm wrong here. If someone has 30 games played right now and an 81% GXE on a "DPLS" account, please feel free to prove me wrong.
ii. Breloom and Infernape
The community seems to be super divided on these two Pokemon right now. Some say Latias will be a godsend for dealing with these problematic Pokemon; others say Breloom and Infernape are not issues pre-Lati. I think BKC nails addressing these misconceptions. Breloom and Infernape are still amazing, and while Latias provides really valuable defensive features to deal with Breloom and Ape (namely bulkier CM roar sets for loom), Breloom and Infernape have not gotten worse in the meta because they both also can be threatening to Jirachi, Ttar, and Tran, the three most popular Pokemon in the current meta by usage. Since BKC does a great job describing this, the only thing I will add is that it limits Infernape's versatility a bit. At this point, choice band/choice scarf ape is by far the best set. Mixape, one of the best answers to stall, is significantly nerfed because it is easily walled by Latias if it doesn't use u-turn, which reduces its coverage. Breloom will run the same main two sets: subpunch and superpower+mach.
Not having anything directly to do with Infernape + Loom but regarding offense and stall, I wanted to briefly talk about my opinion on the theory august presented: that Latias will give offensive builds more freedom. It's very compelling and makes sense on the surface, but I actually disagree with it for the reasons ABR posted above, but also the issue attributed to needing Latias to fix the "problem". I do agree that defensive builds -- full stalls -- are conventionally the most sound builds in DPP, as they check the highest number of threats typically compared to more offensive builds. However, if this is the case, then why is offense significantly more popular in DPP play than stall? From my experience in tournaments, while stall is amazing and safe, (quoting one of my earlier posts) "the right stall will completely invalidate a decent size subset of offenses, but it's about bringing the right offense for your opponent that will capitalize on their preferences." I personally quite like this dynamic between offense and stall pre-Latias. As I said, I agree that stall at, let's say, the highest level of play is the most potent playstyle in DPP. While Latias could free up some room for some offensive builds, in my opinion it is an even better asset defensively. So I think Latias only makes stall better, making things harder for offense. My most consistent team right now in the Latias meta is a stall build with Latias on it, so I guess that means something.
iii. My
opinions thus far
So far, I am really not enjoying the Latias meta. Laddering is a serious pain as is, and it is definitely not fun. I think that there can be a consensus right now that laddering really sucks in DPP -- it's dead, not representative of DPP at a competitive level, a chaotic luck fest with strategies like paraspam that Latias makes better + more popular, etc. But aside from the laddering aspect, I think ABR hits the nail on the coffin when he says that Latias only exacerbates the negative aspects of DPP. Like I said before, it makes the three best mons in the tier pre-lati -- Jirachi Ttar Heatran -- even stronger than they already are, and makes Dugtrio, which has the potential to trap and OHKO all 3, go from a healthy disruptor (I know many people hate Dugtrio pre-Lati regardless, I do not though) into an annoying and even more controversial piece of shit. Beyond the three best mons and dug, Clefable is also even stronger right now from my experience.
I want to specifically shout out double trap (Dug + Mag) with CM
Safeguard Latias as absolutely ridiculous. Safeguard is incredibly strong on CM Latias, as osgoode noted, for blocking status from Jirachi as long as it safely switches in. The only Jirachi that can reliably beat CM safeguard Latias (safeguard has 40 PP btw, that's a ton) is scarf Jirachi. But what do you know: it gets trapped easily by Magnezone if it tries to iron head. I also want to reference PDC's post again regarding this, as I think that the "tiering crisis" that he stated may be very true with DPP after Latias is unbanned. My prediction is that it will not be the last change to DPP. I have a feeling that Dugtrio will eventually become overly problematic in the tier and will be suspected in DPP if Latias comes back.
I strongly feel that the metagame has changed significantly since the freeing of Latias. I've heard many people say "Oh, I've barely seen any Latias on the ladder!" I really don't think this comment is insightful or means anything because despite maybe not seeing too much Latias, it is certainly there and influencing players' move choices and selection of Pokemon. Usage stats are pretty accurate to some degree, but also neglect moveset choice and combinations "selection" of pokemon, so that's something to note as well. Latias is certainly influencing the DPP metagame from my experience.
But my biggest issue right now with the introduction of Latias into the metagame is the highly increased barrier to entry for the tier. Old gens right now are difficult enough to get into in my opinion. The playerbases are small and the ladders are pretty dead and not helpful for improvement in the tier (maybe GSC is a decent ladder). What's worse is that those who do not play DPP as their "main" tier, or don't play it too often, will find it very frustrating and difficult to have to tweak their already existing teams that they have used for a very long time (I have talked to a few capable players who have expressed this to me). I feel that because Latias highly influences the way people are thinking and preparing for the meta (it will always because I think it will probably be either #4 or maybe #5 on the usage stats even when the meta has stabilized), people will have to tweak their teams to adjust to this new meta, not even just Latias itself. I understand that people have proposed valid arguments for why Latias is not broken -- I do not think Latias is broken either -- but like I said I strongly feel that most people, myself included, will have to tweak many of their pre-existing builds to suit the new meta over time.
I have discussed this "tweaking builds" issue with some people who feel that any build that has to be adjusted for Latias specifically has some big issues in the current meta. But I think there is a clear distinction between Latias alone and the Latias meta, which is the distinction I'm trying to make. For what it's worth, I feel that I am an extremely capable builder in the tier (I have over 200 builds in my teambuilder that are "viable" pre-Latias), and I know I will have to adjust or even scrap a significant number of these builds.
So I guess the next question would be something along the lines of why do we care about people who don't "main" or devote themselves to DPP and build. I've seen arguments over semantics about what constitutes a real DPPer and what doesn't, which I suppose might be attributed to who's opinion is valid and who's opinion is not, but at the end of the day DPP is still played by many people in the community who are not proficient builders or who don't devote a ton of time into the tier. Fun and popular tournaments that feature all gens like many RoA ones (RoAST, Major League, etc.) and even tournaments like the Smogon Classic will likely have diminished quality due to the revamping of DPP and the increased barrier to entry.
iv. Conclusion
Perhaps it can be argued in the very long run (and maybe even in the short run) that Latias may possibly be a positive edition to the meta. If you think that Latias is a positive influence on the meta, then that is completely fine. I don't mean to come off harshly in this post, but these are my opinions, which are just as valid as yours. The last thing I want to say is that I strongly encourage anybody who cares about the voting decision to ladder for reqs and vote. The voter pool will, like I alluded to earlier, be inherently flawed. Whether it's because very knowledgeable/established DPPers won't ladder for the suspect, or because people who don't play the tier that much or care that much about the vote achieve reqs for some other underlying motivation (like being a tiering contributor for example), we are a small community and every single vote is extremely important for both sides -- those who want lati back in the meta and those who don't. It seems like the community is very divided on this issue overall (although I could be wrong). Also, I have nothing against anybody for wanting Latias back in the meta and if I'm friends with you it should definitely not affect anything having to do with that :P.
I will still be voting to keep Latias banned.
EDIT:
Note: My opinions in this post did not directly reiterate other posts I've made or other posts I agree with on this thread. I tried to just post "new" components to my opinion.
tl;dr (read this anyway as it clarifies a few points I addressed)
- While the test is inherently flawed, there should be a greater reward for live tour finalists.
- Latias only exacerbates the negative aspects of the DPP metagame, like ABR said.
- On top of this, Latias changes the metagame -- which has stabilized for 8 years -- significantly. One of the arguments is that Latias won't change much because it is "not that good".
- I personally lean toward old gens not being modified unless something fundamentally uncompetitive like Baton Pass needs to be removed.
- Latias does not necessarily make things easier for offense because of its incredible defensive value and unparalleled role compression for stalls, as stated by many in this thread. Latias on full stalls allows these types of builds to get
even closer to covering everything in the meta (see
Kevin Garrett's post in the original policy thread).
- The increased barrier to entry is unhealthy for the metagame relative to the community that plays it -- most DPP games played on showdown are not played at the absolute highest level.
- If you care, get reqs and vote. Because the test is flawed and the community is small, every vote is extremely important.