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Sheer Force boosts moves that have secondary effects at the cost of said secondary effects, like a chance to flinch or lower the opponent's Speed. (convenient that the gen this ability was introduced also gave Flare Blitz a 10% chance to burn) It doesn't apply if the effect is a cost to using it or a better critical hit chance. (so no getting around Superpower or Hammer Arm's stat drops, and Stone Edge only has a boosted critical hit chance.
From my experience with it in White 2, Snivy is... awkward. It's fast and can certainly do a fair bit with Leaf Blade/Leaf Storm, and Coil is nice... but good grief is its move pool barren of coverage. Near anything that resists Grass and/or Normal is going to force it to switch, as that's all it gets in its level up pool, and its TM coverage is not much better. I can't imagine Snivy doing any better in the original set of Unova games. (good if you want a challenge, but not for an efficient run)
Do you think it deserves C tier (where it is right now)?
What I don't get is while it may seem low at first, C tier is actually better than average. But looking at the other Grasses;
-Pansage: Meh. Decent movepool but Vine Whip as your only move early sucks.
-Cottonee: Good in theory but garbage in practice. Simply too inefficient to be highly ranked.
-Petilil: Clearly better even though it has bad coverage. Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance > Coil.
-Sewaddle: Lot of weaknesses but better overall. Boosts better with SD lategame, and has distinctly more variety.
-Deerling: Rough start but variety blows Snivy away, plus Speed and Attack comparable to Leavanny.
-Ferroseed: Good but not very efficient for in-game due to slow speed. Far from horrible but not great either.
-Virizion: Yeah, no. A detour AND you need another legend to catch - that is just too much effort to be worth it.
-Maractus: Actually not that bad. Used it briefly in a run I cancelled. It's better than you'd think, though not a world beater.
Overall, those early Gyms Snivy is around for is mitigated by its competitors having actual move diversity. What does everyone else think about Snivy? I've heard a lot of people drop it in the Unova games, and labeled as one of the worst starters of all time. It's usable but B tier is a little...iffy with bad offenses + movepool.
I think I’m fairly biased in Snivy’s favour, but my experiences with it have been pretty positive. Leech Seed + Coil is a potent combination, and even before you get Coil, Leech Seed is as powerful as it always is in the main series games.
I find that many of its bad on-paper matchups are either workable in practice or so easily manageable with another team member that you don’t even notice its deficiencies. Low offences and poor coverage mean it’s never gonna be ranked too high, of course, but I don’t think it’s that bad. Inefficient? Sure! But it doesn’t outright lose to that much, from memory (although it’s been a long time since I’ve played BW with one).
It’s overshadowed by the fact that the Unova games feature a few horrendously powerful Pokémon that snap the game in half, but I don’t think that’s a reason to drop it too far.
Edit: I think I’ll use it in a run just to jog my memory on its specific matchups.
On the topic of Darumaka, my experience with Darumaka/Darmanitan can be summed up like this: Darmanitan can be ridiculously good, but it is let down by the fact that Darumaka is as reliable as Public Transport in many countries. To put it simply, Darumaka is going to let you down a lot by whiffing its attacks when you don't want them to (as it has in challenge runs that I have done in Gen V games, resulting in quite a few deaths and failed solos). And you don't really get ways to mitigate Hustle's downsides early on as you need five different Trainer ID's to get Wide Lens and you cannot buy X-Accuracies until Route 9 (You only get one beforehand on Route 4, and by that point you have Darmanitan).
At least it gets better once it evolves but even then, Sheer Force Flare Blitz isn't too amazing as, despite the huge damage output, the recoil damage can really work against it (mostly in terms of item usage and KO vulnerability for those that live a hit). I might do another run with it soonish since it's been a while since I last used it, but I haven't had positive memories of it. Whether or not I think it should stay in S-Rank however? I'm not certain. I just know that I am not a big fan of it.
Also, I don't think Snivy is that bad, and its late-game is actually quite decent. I think it is more B than C but I agree that it is not the most efficient Pokémon in the world, so C is a possibility.
On the topic of Darumaka, my experience with Darumaka/Darmanitan can be summed up like this: Darmanitan can be ridiculously good, but it is let down by the fact that Darumaka is as reliable as Public Transport in many countries. To put it simply, Darumaka is going to let you down a lot by whiffing its attacks when you don't want them to (as it has in challenge runs that I have done in Gen V games, resulting in quite a few deaths and failed solos). And you don't really get ways to mitigate Hustle's downsides early on as you need five different Trainer ID's to get Wide Lens and you cannot buy X-Accuracies until Route 9 (You only get one beforehand on Route 4, and by that point you have Darmanitan).
At least it gets better once it evolves but even then, Sheer Force Flare Blitz isn't too amazing as, despite the huge damage output, the recoil damage can really work against it (mostly in terms of item usage and KO vulnerability for those that live a hit). I might do another run with it soonish since it's been a while since I last used it, but I haven't had positive memories of it. Whether or not I think it should stay in S-Rank however? I'm not certain. I just know that I am not a big fan of it.
Also, I don't think Snivy is that bad, and its late-game is actually quite decent. I think it is more B than C but I agree that it is not the most efficient Pokémon in the world, so C is a possibility.
Yeah, I can see why you might think Hustle is frustrating. I laughed at the Public Transport comment. But honestly, you don't need Flare Blitz most of the time. Fire Punch still rips right through most things. It might drop to A, but I don't know. This was my write-up of it for reference: Darumaka
Availability: Route 4, 40% Stats: 90 Attack, 50 speed, and 70 HP are good as Darumaka. Hustle sucks but makes you hit super hard. As Darmanitan, you get 105 HP, 95 Speed, and a monstrous 140 Attack backed by Sheer Force. Both defenses are below 60 in both forms, but the HP provides minor durability. Typing: Fire is decent offensively with not too many weaknesses. Average. Movepool: Fire Punch at 22 is pretty much all you need. Belly Drum is mostly overkill at level 30, and Flare Blitz at 35 is basically “I WILL raze anything in front of me.” Only really bulky resists can take one, but the recoil means it’s impractical against mooks. Dig, Rock Tomb, and Work Up can be taught easily via TM, and Headbutt (starting move) is decent until Thrash (level 27) or max power Return. Superpower at level 47 or Brick Break via TM help. Major Battles: All of them, save maybe Clay. If you can get off an attack on Clay’s Excadrill, you can smack it hard. Rivals/N fall to sheer power of Darmanitan. You can probably beat Skyla’s Swoobat and Unfezant but Swanna is a no-go, while Brycen is a joke and you could probably even take on Drayden’s Fraxure. Against the League, you can handle each member pretty well aside from Shauntal. A third of N’s team falls to Darmanitan as does Ghetsis’s Bisharp (you can also smack Bouffalant with Brick Break/Superpower, not so for Hydreigon due to Surf) Additional Comments: Darmanitan is easily one of the best mons in the game, so good it can replace Tepig. Only Chandelure comes close to Darmanitan, but comes later and you have to deal with Litwick and find a Dusk Stone. Hustle can be annoying as Darumaka but it doesn’t detract from its overall usability.
When you think about it, Hustle is about as bad as Defeatist is for Archen (not that much). Still though, can you think of a mon with 140+ Attack as fast as Darmanitan not named Haxorus? We'll wait and see. Maybe we'll need a couple more opinions.
In my last Black playthrough, Darumaka was a continuous nuke button, from the moment I caught it, up until the very end. It learns hard hitting moves early on, has great coverage throughout the game, and hits hard enough to take down most foes with just neutral damage.
Indeed, missing with Hustle sucks. But for me personally, it was never a major issue. I don't remember it costing me an important match. It's like paralysis, sometimes it won't happen for several battles, sometimes it'll happen 3 times in a row. You kind of "suffer through it", and you're rewarded with Sheer Force, which just DESTROYS.
I also agree about the recoil on Flare Blitz. That's why I just kept using Fire Punch all through the Elite Four. Darmanitan rarely had any issue 1-shotting things. I only used Flare Blitz when I needed the extra power to secure a kill against a foe that wasn't weak to Fire or the other coverage moves.
I personally agree with describing Darumaka as one of the best Pokemon in the game, deserving of a S-rank.
In my last Black playthrough, Darumaka was a continuous nuke button, from the moment I caught it, up until the very end. It learns hard hitting moves early on, has great coverage throughout the game, and hits hard enough to take down most foes with just neutral damage.
Indeed, missing with Hustle sucks. But for me personally, it was never a major issue. I don't remember it costing me an important match. It's like paralysis, sometimes it won't happen for several battles, sometimes it'll happen 3 times in a row. You kind of "suffer through it", and you're rewarded with Sheer Force, which just DESTROYS.
I also agree with about the recoil on Flare Blitz. That's why I just kept using Fire Punch all through the Elite Four. Darmanitan rarely had any issue 1-shotting things. I only used Flare Blitz when I needed the extra power to secure a kill against a foe that wasn't weak to Fire or the other coverage moves.
I personally agree with describing Darumaka as one of the best Pokemon in the game, deserving of a S-rank.
Adding to this, I did a solo run with Darumaka a while back (from the very beginning of the game, replacing Tepig as starter). I only had like...2 whiteouts? (One was to a Basculin trainer lol). I know solo runs aren't typically considered for this tier list, but I want to use it to show that it is more than capable of taking on the rest of the game, disregarding Hustle.
And before someone comes in the thread with doubt on the other S tiers:
Scraggy: Gym matchups aren't incredible, but Moxie has sweeping potential even with low Speed and 90 Attack as Scrafty. Gets all the moves it needs naturally, and a late evo doesn't matter just because its moves are so great. What other mon dominates the E4 sans Marshal (imo hardest opponent in the game) by typing alone?
Drilbur: Has a bit of a slow start up due to not having Dig until level 19, but once it is Excadrill with EQ, it's arguably better than Haxorus due to Ground being good offensively. All the auxiliary TMs it could use are on the main path (X-Scissor, Shadow Claw, Brick Break, natural Rock Slide at 29) but EQ is all you need.
Archen: What needs to be said about Roc (cookie if you get the reference)? It starts with higher Attack than Gurdurr, and skyrockets to higher than Salamence when it evolves at 37. Defeatist doesn't matter when you get Acrobatics 3 levels after you revive it. Plus it has great moves naturally and via TMs.
As much as I'd want it to be there, Sigilyph isn't S. 10% encounter rate, on top of needing Magic Guard, meh gyms and E4, combined with weaknesses make it A. Still the best Psychic and second best Flying type. Points for having a full moveset extremely early (it even learns the screens naturally, a huge boon).
Unrelated, but should I stop responding to every post and let the discussion flow (posting more infrequently in the process)? Don't want to drown out others' opinions despite being the thread creator!
My personal inputs on some mons that were just discussed:
-Darumaka, even with Hustle, is still an S-rank mon imo. It can miss a move or two, but in most good matchups (Ice, Steel, Bug, and Grass), it isn't too threatened anyways. Has a high encounter rate, gets ridiculous moves, and is obtained relatively early. Evolving it into Darmanitan makes it a beast. Clearly something an S rank mon would have.
-Scraggy is also worthy of S rank. As mentioned previously, Scrafty itself dominates 3/4 of the Elite Four on its own by merits of its typing. Also gets ridiculous moves (seriously, HJK to Scraggy lol) and is obtained early.
-Archen's Defeatist doesn't stop it from being a monster. If something doesn't resist Flying, it's probably dying to Acrobatics. Cannot spam it completely with Lucky Egg but I think it can pull it through nonethless. Requires detouring, but is totally worth.
-It has been a while since I have used Blitzle, but as far as I remember, it wasn't too great; I think the only worthy Electric-type is Joltik, everything else is rather questionable. Flame Charge was interesting move, but def not enough to push it up to higher ranks. As I said, I don't remember much from using it, but there's probably a reason as to why I never ran it again.
I may post again with other mons. I am planning on replaying this to get better view on some mons.
My personal inputs on some mons that were just discussed:
-Darumaka, even with Hustle, is still an S-rank mon imo. It can miss a move or two, but in most good matchups (Ice, Steel, Bug, and Grass), it isn't too threatened anyways. Has a high encounter rate, gets ridiculous moves, and is obtained relatively early. Evolving it into Darmanitan makes it a beast. Clearly something an S rank mon would have.
-Scraggy is also worthy of S rank. As mentioned previously, Scrafty itself dominates 3/4 of the Elite Four on its own by merits of its typing. Also gets ridiculous moves (seriously, HJK to Scraggy lol) and is obtained early.
-Archen's Defeatist doesn't stop it from being a monster. If something doesn't resist Flying, it's probably dying to Acrobatics. Cannot spam it completely with Lucky Egg but I think it can pull it through nonethless. Requires detouring, but is totally worth.
-It has been a while since I have used Blitzle, but as far as I remember, it wasn't too great; I think the only worthy Electric-type is Joltik, everything else is rather questionable. Flame Charge was interesting move, but def not enough to push it up to higher ranks. As I said, I don't remember much from using it, but there's probably a reason as to why I never ran it again.
I may post again with other mons. I am planning on replaying this to get better view on some mons.
Blitzle's alright in the beginning from what I recall, but it falls off not too long after it evolves. It's a physical Electric type like Shinx, but with arguably worse abilities and move pool, and Grass doesn't come up enough for Flame Charge to be a great selling point considering the weak base power of it.
Archen is a freaking monster. It's fast and hits like a runaway truck. Defeatist sucks, but it rarely comes up when it OHKO's nearly everything that isn't bulky and/or resistant to its attacks. That said, I'm going off of memories from almost a decade ago, so it might not be accurate. Still, I'm sure it's worthy of A rank at the absolute worst.
Anyway, I've just started a play through of White, and after fumbling about trying to remember how to delete an old save file to start a new game I can save, I chose Oshawott. Caught Lilipup and a bunch of other Pokemon I don't intend to use, and have just cleared the Striation gym. The puppy did quite well there, but we'll see how it holds up as I go. Having just learned Take Down ought to help it considerably.
Darumaka- Fire Punch spam is nice and all, but is is frail, not that fast and somewhat unreliable until evolution. Easily the worst of the tier
Archen- BEST MON. SPAM MOVE TO WIN.
Drilbur- That period to Dig is awful, but EQ quite early(33/36), SD, Rock Slide and X-Scissor are all you need to tear Unova a new one.
Scraggy- 130 BP move, high defenses, two amazing abilites, fantastic Gym and E4 matchups. YES PLZ?
Now here's something i want to see rise: Petlil
Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder is just disgusting, and STAB destroys all neutral threats after a boost. Literally the only thing stopping it from being the best Pokemon in the game is it's awful movepool, but i feel that isn't enough to stop it from A Tier.
Edit: Just for the meme, you should change Z Tier's name to You Know What My Liepard Has, That Your's Doesn't Have?
Meme in question:
Update on my run. Current team is Serperior, Audino, Zebstrika and Cofagrigus. I just beat Skyla, who was a joke tbh.
Serperior: it continued to do just fine, just like in the early game. Burgh is a really bad matchup, but it can at least beat Dwebble. It learned mega drain which is immensly useful in the desert resort. Big root mega drain + leech seed means that I barely had to give servine potions. This selfsustainabilty also counteracts it's supposedly quite bad 'efficiency', since you don't need to run back to the poke center after every battle. Elesa was another problem, but eviolite servine can tank even SE STAB aerial aces. Sooo, if you are really desperate you could stall out Elesa's team with leech seed + torment (yes, I know it's gimmicky) + x def items. This works well because the AI doesn't want to use the NVE volt switch against servine.
Anyway, after this rough fight it got return to replace tackle. Return is powerful enough to 2-HKO virtually everything that doesn't resist it, which really carries servine through this part of the game. The fight against Clay was easy for obvious reasons. Servine soloed it without effort or items used. Then shortly before the fight with Skyla, it evolved into Serperior, making it even faster and bulkier, and also granting it coil. Coil immediately found its use against Skyla, a fight which, surprise, Serperior soloed without too much effort. Swoobat isn't very strong even with STAB acrobatics, so I boldly set up coil right in front of it. Leech seed helped the setup, and I needed to use one moomoo milk. With three coils under its belt, Serperior OHKO all of Skyla's pokemon with return or leaf blade. Overall, Serperior has proven its worth even in matchups that it has no busines winning on paper. Like hell, even Samurott can't solo Skyla and it doesn't even have a weakness against flying. I still believe C is too low for it.
Audino: Its coverage has been expanded with dig, gras knot, and charge beam now in its aresenal, along with screens (which haven't found use yet). It was decent against Burgh by virtue of its good stats. It was also great on route 4 and the desert resort, which has some surprisingly difficult NPC's to fight like some fisher dudes with FOUR Basculins or the phychic with the Sygiliph. Audino saved me in those fights by tanking blow after blow, while 2-HKO'ing pretty much anything with secret power. I didn't use it against Elesa because Zebstrika soloed that fight, but If the gym trainers were any indication, Audino was decent. Special mention goes to retaliate, which OHKO's EVERYTHING, even very powerful pokemon in gym battles. It has been quite useful throughout the run so far. It's so easy to just kamikaze your HM-slave into STAB retaliate, which is great in gyms. I think this strat is also viable and useful on the other, arguably better normal types like Lilipup.
If I didn't use Serperior to solo Clay and Skyla, Audino would have been great with grass knot and charge beam. I used Audino against the gym trainers and it cleanly 2-HKO'd their pokemon, which is a good indicator of how Audino would function in the actual gym fight itself. Overall, Audino still doesn't feel like a liability to me. It's a great catch-all solution to fall back on when things get rough, because it never dies and still deals respectable damage. I hope it keeps it up. So far it might warrant a rise to C.
Zebstrika: I dunno what the guys above me are talking about, but Zebrstrika is far from mediocre to me. It almost single-handedly beat Burgh with flame charge. It also soloed Elesa by virtue of its electric immunity, which completely shuts down her gimmick. You are free to spam return until everything dies because nothing can deal meaningful damage to Zebstrika. It also uses volt switch well itself, allowing it to get out of rough situations in a pinch on top of dealing solid damage of course. It's great if you play on set like me. It was useless against Clay though.
As I said, I didn't use it against Skyla because I wanted to test Serperiors matchup there. However, I am absolutely positive that Zebstrika would have destroyed the gym just the same. At around Mistralton city it also got a new move in discharge, which together with stomp has really nice parahax potential. It's powerful as well. Overall, Zebstrika can contribute greatly in every gym fight bar Clay up until this point. Based on my current progress, I don't expect it to fall off anytime soon and I think it's a solid B tier.
Cofagrigus: eviolite Yamask is beyond bulky. It gets will-o-wisp at catch, which is very useful. It's main STAB, hex, is decent enough, actually 2-HKO'ing a good portion of enemies despite Yamasks mediocre-ish special attack. It also gets Ominous wind and night shade as offensive options, but neither is very reliable. Outside of those moves, it doesn't get much though. This means that any normal type at all forces it out, which is annoying. Against Elesa and Clay, the best thing it can do is wisp something, which is not too noteworthy but still possibly useful. From its catch to around chargestone cave, things didn't look too bright for it. However, at the end of the tunnel, it got a surprise solo on N. Yamask isn't particularly strong of course, but N just couldn't put damage on it at all. So wisp + hex cleared his entire team, even klink and ferroseed who resist ghost.
Just before skyla, it evolved. This gave it some much needed extra power and a free item slot that isn't eviolite (I gave it a rocky helmet). It did some funky stuff in celestial tower, dealing with the multiple phychics well and also beating a Stoutland one on one with just burn and rocky helmet damage. It also got an interesting move in power split, which averages the users atk and sp. atk with the enemies'. If this means what I think it means, it can completly ruin physical attackers, so I'm super tempted to use this on Beartic and Haxorus in the upcoming gym fights. Overall, Yamasks performance wasn't too impressive. It suffered from mediocre power, lack of coverage and pp problems. However, the short time I used it as a Cofagrigus was much more bearable, so who knows if it can still redeem itself in the late game.
So that was my not so brief summary of the mid game. In the final update I'll have completed the game and I will give my final verdict on these pokemon. Since the run has been going surprisingly well so far, I'm tempted to take the time to train a Mienfoo because it's one of my favorites. And I also really need something to defeat Hydreigon...
Anyway, I've just started a play through of White, and after fumbling about trying to remember how to delete an old save file to start a new game I can save, I chose Oshawott. Caught Lilipup and a bunch of other Pokemon I don't intend to use, and have just cleared the Striation gym. The puppy did quite well there, but we'll see how it holds up as I go. Having just learned Take Down ought to help it considerably.
Now here's something i want to see rise: Petlil
Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder is just disgusting, and STAB destroys all neutral threats after a boost. Literally the only thing stopping it from being the best Pokemon in the game is it's awful movepool, but i feel that isn't enough to stop it from A Tier.
I do want to agree with you. Lilligant IS amazing, especially the Black traded one. But let's consider:
It has about two gyms before it takes off. It could maybe beat Dwebble. Elesa is a no go unless you are evolved and have Quiver Dance already (and even then it's probably a trade at best).
Skyla hit's Lilligant's frailer side with Acrobatics, while Brycen crits through your special defense buffs. Drayden resists and can Dragon Tail away. E4 preformance is probably okay. You can boost but if they crit (likely with a four man team) it isn't pretty, and they can hit you back super-effectively a fair bit.
Let's also consider Colonel M's post on Petilil from the old thread (page 82):
"Though guess who ISN'T going to make it to Top or possibly Upper Mid? Petilil. Yes, this thing is going right back down the gutter where it came from. I am currently using it in my Black run (which means it's the EXP-boosted one), and to put it frankly its situation sucks. We have:
- No real time to train aside from on Plasma Grunt here and there.
- Can't really lead the party since it's slow as shit, which makes simple tasks like running away difficult.
- Bug-type Gym where it gets slaughtered.
- Desert which has Darumakka lying around. Seeing as Petilil is too slow, no time to really grind either.
- Electric-type Gym with Acrobatics flying rodents. You tell me the situation good sir.
It takes about the fucking Ground-type Gym before it hits "okay" status. Against some normal trainers and what not it can... sort of hold its own. Mega Drain is about a 3HKO and Magical Leaf means sacrificing one of your better moves for it. Giga Drain + Quiver Dance is also a mile stretch away, and its situation isn't arguably better since the next two Gyms have Super Effective moves on it and the final Gym having a bunch of Dragon-types. Now granted you can Sleep Powder -> Quiver Dance -> Sweep on some Pokemon, but Ice-type Gym for example has Frost Breath which cuts right through the SpD boost. I mean come on really?"
Now they were wrong about Acrobatics but since they have Aerial Ace it's the same situation. Personally I could see it in A, but I think realistically, it could be in B (along with Snivy, but I want more experience on that beyond Magnus0 before I raise it).
Update on my run. Current team is Serperior, Audino, Zebstrika and Cofagrigus. I just beat Skyla, who was a joke tbh.
Serperior: it continued to do just fine, just like in the early game. Burgh is a really bad matchup, but it can at least beat Dwebble. It learned mega drain which is immensly useful in the desert resort. Big root mega drain + leech seed means that I barely had to give servine potions. This selfsustainabilty also counteracts it's supposedly quite bad 'efficiency', since you don't need to run back to the poke center after every battle. Elesa was another problem, but eviolite servine can tank even SE STAB aerial aces. Sooo, if you are really desperate you could stall out Elesa's team with leech seed + torment (yes, I know it's gimmicky) + x def items. This works well because the AI doesn't want to use the NVE volt switch against servine.
Anyway, after this rough fight it got return to replace tackle. Return is powerful enough to 2-HKO virtually everything that doesn't resist it, which really carries servine through this part of the game. The fight against Clay was easy for obvious reasons. Servine soloed it without effort or items used. Then shortly before the fight with Skyla, it evolved into Serperior, making it even faster and bulkier, and also granting it coil. Coil immediately found its use against Skyla, a fight which, surprise, Serperior soloed without too much effort. Swoobat isn't very strong even with STAB acrobatics, so I boldly set up coil right in front of it. Leech seed helped the setup, and I needed to use one moomoo milk. With three coils under its belt, Serperior OHKO all of Skyla's pokemon with return or leaf blade. Overall, Serperior has proven its worth even in matchups that it has no busines winning on paper. Like hell, even Samurott can't solo Skyla and it doesn't even have a weakness against flying. I still believe C is too low for it.
Audino: Its coverage has been expanded with dig, gras knot, and charge beam now in its aresenal, along with screens (which haven't found use yet). It was decent against Burgh by virtue of its good stats. It was also great on route 4 and the desert resort, which has some surprisingly difficult NPC's to fight like some fisher dudes with FOUR Basculins or the phychic with the Sygiliph. Audino saved me in those fights by tanking blow after blow, while 2-HKO'ing pretty much anything with secret power. I didn't use it against Elesa because Zebstrika soloed that fight, but If the gym trainers were any indication, Audino was decent. Special mention goes to retaliate, which OHKO's EVERYTHING, even very powerful pokemon in gym battles. It has been quite useful throughout the run so far. It's so easy to just kamikaze your HM-slave into STAB retaliate, which is great in gyms. I think this strat is also viable and useful on the other, arguably better normal types like Lilipup.
If I didn't use Serperior to solo Clay and Skyla, Audino would have been great with grass knot and charge beam. I used Audino against the gym trainers and it cleanly 2-HKO'd their pokemon, which is a good indicator of how Audino would function in the actual gym fight itself. Overall, Audino still doesn't feel like a liability to me. It's a great catch-all solution to fall back on when things get rough, because it never dies and still deals respectable damage. I hope it keeps it up. So far it might warrant a rise to C.
Zebstrika: I dunno what the guys above me are talking about, but Zebrstrika is far from mediocre to me. It almost single-handedly beat Burgh with flame charge. It also soloed Elesa by virtue of its electric immunity, which completely shuts down her gimmick. You are free to spam return until everything dies because nothing can deal meaningful damage to Zebstrika. It also uses volt switch well itself, allowing it to get out of rough situations in a pinch on top of dealing solid damage of course. It's great if you play on set like me. It was useless against Clay though.
As I said, I didn't use it against Skyla because I wanted to test Serperiors matchup there. However, I am absolutely positive that Zebstrika would have destroyed the gym just the same. At around Mistralton city it also got a new move in discharge, which together with stomp has really nice parahax potential. It's powerful as well. Overall, Zebstrika can contribute greatly in every gym fight bar Clay up until this point. Based on my current progress, I don't expect it to fall off anytime soon and I think it's a solid B tier.
Cofagrigus: eviolite Yamask is beyond bulky. It gets will-o-wisp at catch, which is very useful. It's main STAB, hex, is decent enough, actually 2-HKO'ing a good portion of enemies despite Yamasks mediocre-ish special attack. It also gets Ominous wind and night shade as offensive options, but neither is very reliable. Outside of those moves, it doesn't get much though. This means that any normal type at all forces it out, which is annoying. Against Elesa and Clay, the best thing it can do is wisp something, which is not too noteworthy but still possibly useful. From its catch to around chargestone cave, things didn't look too bright for it. However, at the end of the tunnel, it got a surprise solo on N. Yamask isn't particularly strong of course, but N just couldn't put damage on it at all. So wisp + hex cleared his entire team, even klink and ferroseed who resist ghost.
Just before skyla, it evolved. This gave it some much needed extra power and a free item slot that isn't eviolite (I gave it a rocky helmet). It did some funky stuff in celestial tower, dealing with the multiple phychics well and also beating a Stoutland one on one with just burn and rocky helmet damage. It also got an interesting move in power split, which averages the users atk and sp. atk with the enemies'. If this means what I think it means, it can completly ruin physical attackers, so I'm super tempted to use this on Beartic and Haxorus in the upcoming gym fights. Overall, Yamasks performance wasn't too impressive. It suffered from mediocre power, lack of coverage and pp problems. However, the short time I used it as a Cofagrigus was much more bearable, so who knows if it can still redeem itself in the late game.
So that was my not so brief summary of the mid game. In the final update I'll have completed the game and I will give my final verdict on these pokemon. Since the run has been going surprisingly well so far, I'm tempted to take the time to train a Mienfoo because it's one of my favorites. And I also really need something to defeat Hydreigon...
Gonna try to be a bit brief because this post is long already.
Serperior is probably gotten by about Skyla. Though there is a decent chance you will not have Coil yet (level 38). That Elesa strategy is beyond gimmicky though-I mean you could try it if you have nothing else, but it's even more inefficent than Coil.
Actually, chuggaaconroy lost to Burgh with Oshawott, Blitzle, and Sandile. Not saying he is a godly player but I would say he picks good Pokemon for the most part (albeit unorthodox ones like Garbodor which is why it resides in D tier). Also, beating a Pokemon with a 4x weakness is not exactly an accomplishment (look at Skyla's Swanna).
Okay, Audino's performance is surprising me. I like how it's doing well for you. I think a rise to C might be pushing it though. Regardless of tankiness offense is favored more often than defensive mons, and it's far from the best Normal otherwise.
I'd like some more opinions on the team Magnus0 is using (or perhaps retesting) by other users before I rise any of them, especially because all but Audino are pretty controversial and nowhere near the best mons to use (no offense, just don't wanna be hasty).
Might as well make a list of mons I'm interesting in users testing for future reference:
-Blitzle
-Snivy
-Traded Roggenrola (diversity is something to be desired but it's Gyms are pretty good, Sturdy is a great ability)
-Petilil
-Venipede (maybe I was using it wrong but I felt it was kinda meh)
-Sewaddle (I think this mon is deadly if you know major battles well, been awhile since I used it).
-Coballion
-Durant
-Mincinno
I'm starting up a Snivy run myself on my white file
Took a quick look at some stuff in my old black file to remind what I used, some quick thoughts:
Archen: probably the biggest S in any gen
Darumaka: pretty close behind
Joltik: I remember this being A worthy now, I had Modest Compundeyes with Thunder / Thunderbolt / Charge Beam / Signal Beam and not having any issues at all
Sandile: Krook was a beast, solid A
Petilil: strong, agree with B
Lillipup: I dropped mine when it evolved to Stoutland oops
Deerling: I remember this being pretty good when I used it, you could argue for B
Solosis: I think this should be B? Reuniclus is both bulky and strong and Psychic / Shadow Ball / Flash Cannon / Recover is a great moveset
Venipede: Scolipede was good, C is probably accurate
I'm starting up a Snivy run myself on my white file
Took a quick look at some stuff in my old black file to remind what I used, some quick thoughts:
Archen: probably the biggest S in any gen
Darumaka: pretty close behind
Joltik: I remember this being A worthy now, I had Modest Compundeyes with Thunder / Thunderbolt / Charge Beam / Signal Beam and not having any issues at all
Sandile: Krook was a beast, solid A
Petilil: strong, agree with B
Lillipup: I dropped mine when it evolved to Stoutland oops
Deerling: I remember this being pretty good when I used it, you could argue for B
Solosis: I think this should be B? Reuniclus is both bulky and strong and Psychic / Shadow Ball / Flash Cannon / Recover is a great moveset
Venipede: Scolipede was good, C is probably accurate
I actually agree with just about all those opinions. I still think Joltik is on the cusp of B though having a good case for A. I almost wanna use Sandile in my current playthrough. If Joltik is A I am likely rising Axew to A (even early on it has DD).
Solosis though...you could argue for B, but you have to remember going last means it will be accumulating chip damage despite how wonderful of an ability Magic Guard is. To be fair, Centers and healing NPCs are everywhere. Plus it has a bit of a movepool rut until later in the game. Almost wanted to use one in the run on the rom but didn't cuz I'm lazy and chose Black.
I think I'm gonna give Venipede a second chance by catching a Whirlipede at Lostlorn. Seems like the best way to use it.
Edit: Just beat Burgh. Went a little out of my way to get Gurdurr and it annihilated. Two uses of Work Up was all I needed to sweep with Rock Throw. Gurdurr was still in green health thanks to Eviolite.
Also, I think the game starts catching up to Herdier around Castelia. Mine just got KOed by a Basculin. Take Down miss, Bite flinch, then it died. I'll try and sweep the rivals and see how that goes though...
And...looks like I was wrong. With careful switching and Work Up Herdier easily takes Bianca and the scrub Chinhair to school. Pidove's Air Cutter was like a bubble against a tank due to Herdier's Eviolite.
You guys have no idea how good it feels to come home to some posts after a long day of being a college student...I love this job.
Anyway, response time!
Lillipup will hold up. It's been a beast for me so far. About to continue my run and post an update about how it works for me.
I do want to agree with you. Lilligant IS amazing, especially the Black traded one. But let's consider:
It has about two gyms before it takes off. It could maybe beat Dwebble. Elesa is a no go unless you are evolved and have Quiver Dance already (and even then it's probably a trade at best).
Skyla hit's Lilligant's frailer side with Acrobatics, while Brycen crits through your special defense buffs. Drayden resists and can Dragon Tail away. E4 preformance is probably okay. You can boost but if they crit (likely with a four man team) it isn't pretty, and they can hit you back super-effectively a fair bit.
Let's also consider Colonel M's post on Petilil from the old thread (page 82):
"Though guess who ISN'T going to make it to Top or possibly Upper Mid? Petilil. Yes, this thing is going right back down the gutter where it came from. I am currently using it in my Black run (which means it's the EXP-boosted one), and to put it frankly its situation sucks. We have:
- No real time to train aside from on Plasma Grunt here and there.
- Can't really lead the party since it's slow as shit, which makes simple tasks like running away difficult.
- Bug-type Gym where it gets slaughtered.
- Desert which has Darumakka lying around. Seeing as Petilil is too slow, no time to really grind either.
- Electric-type Gym with Acrobatics flying rodents. You tell me the situation good sir.
It takes about the fucking Ground-type Gym before it hits "okay" status. Against some normal trainers and what not it can... sort of hold its own. Mega Drain is about a 3HKO and Magical Leaf means sacrificing one of your better moves for it. Giga Drain + Quiver Dance is also a mile stretch away, and its situation isn't arguably better since the next two Gyms have Super Effective moves on it and the final Gym having a bunch of Dragon-types. Now granted you can Sleep Powder -> Quiver Dance -> Sweep on some Pokemon, but Ice-type Gym for example has Frost Breath which cuts right through the SpD boost. I mean come on really?"
Now they were wrong about Acrobatics but since they have Aerial Ace it's the same situation. Personally I could see it in A, but I think realistically, it could be in B (along with Snivy, but I want more experience on that beyond Magnus0 before I raise it).
Gonna try to be a bit brief because this post is long already.
Serperior is probably gotten by about Skyla. Though there is a decent chance you will not have Coil yet (level 38). That Elesa strategy is beyond gimmicky though-I mean you could try it if you have nothing else, but it's even more inefficent than Coil.
Actually, chuggaaconroy lost to Burgh with Oshawott, Blitzle, and Sandile. Not saying he is a godly player but I would say he picks good Pokemon for the most part (albeit unorthodox ones like Garbodor which is why it resides in D tier). Also, beating a Pokemon with a 4x weakness is not exactly an accomplishment (look at Skyla's Swanna).
Okay, Audino's performance is surprising me. I like how it's doing well for you. I think a rise to C might be pushing it though. Regardless of tankiness offense is favored more often than defensive mons, and it's far from the best Normal otherwise.
I'd like some more opinions on the team Magnus0 is using (or perhaps retesting) by other users before I rise any of them, especially because all but Audino are pretty controversial and nowhere near the best mons to use (no offense, just don't wanna be hasty).
Might as well make a list of mons I'm interesting in users testing for future reference:
-Blitzle
-Snivy
-Traded Roggenrola (diversity is something to be desired but it's Gyms are pretty good, Sturdy is a great ability)
-Petilil
-Venipede (maybe I was using it wrong but I felt it was kinda meh)
-Sewaddle (I think this mon is deadly if you know major battles well, been awhile since I used it).
-Coballion
-Durant
-Mincinno
I'll be getting Sewaddle soon enough, as I'm up to Nacrene City now.
Drillbur: Not hard to find if you buy a few Repels so as to wander undisturbed for the dust clouds. It's a slow start for it, but now it has Dig to turn things around.
Timburr: Also a bit of a slow go, but it gets going much quicker thanks to Rock Throw and Wake Up Slap just as it's on par with Lenora's Watchog. My Herdier put in some work to soften her Pokemon up, (because Intimidate) but fell to her Watchog. Timburr would've broken the thing sooner had I remembered to have it hold a Chesto Berry for Hypnosis. (thankfully it woke up with 2 HP left to grab the win) I'm pretty excited to see where it goes from here, especially since I have the means to evolve it into Conkeldurr.
As for Durant. It comes extremely late, but from what I remember, it easily cleans out half of the Elite Four. (Caitlin and Grimsley) I don't recall using it against N or Ghetsis, but it doesn't want to be anywhere near anything that knows a Fire move. D tier is probably the most appropriate for it.
Yeah I started a run using just lillipup and it just eats the earlygame and evolves just in time to raze the route after gym 1. Also just caught a roggenrola with an impish nature and seemingly decent IVs so I'll have the rock covered.
UH...lol
Man everyone's playthroughs are taking off. As for the Durant thing, Its_A_Random posted about moving it to C or even B a while back. C i somewhat support, but B is iffy - we aren't talking Emerald Rayquaza good here.
Edit: Also tried catching Venipede. Got Timid, then Relaxed. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME?!
UH...lol
Man everyone's playthroughs are taking off. As for the Durant thing, Its_A_Random posted about moving it to C or even B a while back. C i somewhat support, but B is iffy - we aren't talking Emerald Rayquaza good here.
Edit: Also tried catching Venipede. Got Timid, then Relaxed. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME?!
Got a Brave Swadloon, for what it's worth. It loves to munch on the local Grass Pokemon, and the Team Plasma goons were generally not an issue. Getting it to evolve into Leavanny requires friendship, though, so that could take a bit.
I'd like to point out that after dealing with the Plasma grunts in Pinwheel Forest, Lenora gives you a Moon Stone if you'd like more power and tankiness from Munna immediately. (though you give up learning new moves via level up, as is typical with stone evolutions)
doing a run of white with Oshwatt will update soon!
Edit 1: Just a quick note, you can get ALL 3 elemental monkeys in a save file in Lostlorn or Pinwheel(inner) Forest as a 10% chance each in rustling grass.
Team(Dreamyard)
Oshawatt- Oshawatt is a bland pokemon with a bland type with a bland movepool with bland stats. However, everything else either sucks(Ducklett, Alomonola) or come too late to be of any use(anything except Simipour), so it can work.
Purrloin_ Good Greivusas this is bad. It can't hit for jack all with Scratch and is too frail to use any of it's "support" moves, so I usually have to click Assist to do anything. And when you have to use ASSIST to do anything, that's an inneficent pokemon.
Pansage- Meh.
Next time we'll be at Castelia and see our new members
PSA: After you beat Burgh, the dark grass of Pinwheel Forest is available to you. The Pokemon are in the 22-25 range of levels. Notably, this is higher than the levels in Lostlorn Forest roughly 3-4 levels lower (and on par with Route 16/5's dark grass) and you can get some helpful items like TM22 SolarBeam, a Hyper Potion, and a hidden Rare Candy. After you get Surf, Silver Powder is also there.
If you want to use Cottonee/Petilil this is likely the most efficient way, as they aren't far off from Giga Drain if you get them. Whirlipede comes with Bug Bite and Poison Tail this way, effectively making the Venipede rut moot. Sadly, you will have to relearn Defense Curl + Rollout combo if you do this, but that's only really useful for Elesa and Skyla, who you likely should stay away from.
This isn't the most efficient way to raise Sewaddle though-you need happiness points from evolving to Swadloon, it can slightly help against Burgh with Eviolite, and it has good STAB moves at level 15 onward, so you lose nothing by picking it up early.
In addition, in the house west of the Pokemon Center you can buy the X items including X Accuracy pre-Lenora. Now, you aren't gonna use X Accuracy on random mooks but this makes Darumaka's performance in major battles substantially better. While it may have some trouble taking a hit to use an X Accuracy, there isn't much of a doubt in my mind anymore - it should stay in S.
Also, a reminder that the friendship checker is in the house east of the Pokemon Center (lady with the Cottonee).
Not gonna make double posting a habit but this is just insane:
Venipede, Poison Point, Relaxed
Venipede, Swarm, Timid
Venipede, Poison Point, Sassy
Venipede, Swarm, Sassy
Venipede, Poison Point, Hardy
Whirlipede, Swarm, Sassy
Whirlipede, Swarm, Sassy
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Impish
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Impish
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Bashful
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Calm
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Calm
Whirlipede, Poison Point, Calm
I've literally caught all of these. I JUST WANT A DECENT ONE WITH SWARM, UGH
Edit: Gonna settle on Mild Swarm. Have I mentioned I hate RNG?
I completed my playthrough with Serperior, Audino, Zebstrika, Cofagrigus and Mienshao. Some of the pokemon I used really surprised me in the late game. Here´s a summary of their stats for those interested.
Moves: all the moves (it learns almost all the tm's in the game). Some notable ones throughout the run were retaliate, return, dig, shadow ball, fire blast, blizzard and thunderbolt
Item: expert belt
Gallop (Zebstrika), motor drive, lax
Level: 47
HP: 134
Atk: 117
Def: 73
Sp.atk: 93
Sp.def: 66
Spd 138
Moves: light screen, volt switch, return, wild charge
Item: shell bell
Moves: u-turn, dig, drain punch, jump kick
Item: big root
A small summary of the major late game fights. If you just want to know my final verdict on the tier placement, skip these four paragraphs.
Brycen was really easy. The mvp in this gym was Audino actually. Fire blast OHKO'd vannilish. It outsped and did over half to Beartic, but sadly it got bad luck with swagger hax. With a persim berry, it would have soloed the fight. Mienfoo cleaned up the rest of Brycens team with jump kick. The same thing happened against Drayden. I was kinda scared of him, because I had no real counter to dragon types. However, I did have my trusty Audino, who has an answer to every pokemon in the game with its customizable movepool. Fraxure used dragon dance and then got OHKO´d by blizzard. Druddigon lived one blizzard and then used... chip away?! which did nothing to Audino. I use return as it gets healed, use an ether on blizzard and finish Druddigon next turn. Haxorus also tried setting up dragon dance, as I missed the first blizzard. The second blizzard hit though, but Haxorus was at +2 attack and speed already and I didn't bother reviving any of my other team members who were all dead from the gym trainers. Things looked dire for poor Audino, but then Drayden decided to use his 3000 IQ strat of dragon dance + dragon tail. Audino outsped because of dragon tails negative priority, and it finished Haxorus with a final blizzard. You know you are doing something wrong as a gym leader if a random Audino of all things beats your ass.
The elite four was interesting. After route 10 and victory road, my entire team was level 46. I killed like three audinos with Mienfoo to get it to 48 and then I gave it my only two rare candies to evolve it. Mienshao immediately proved its worth by absolutely decimating Grimsley. I then took on Shauntal who was the hardest for me. My cofagrigus outsped hers, so it won the ditto. Serperior did well vs both Golurk and Jellicent, but then got KO'd by Chandelure. I used Audino to weaken it with shadow ball, which allowed Mienshao to finish it with dig. Then I took on Marshal, who ended up being super easy for me thanks to Serperior. It can easily set up six coils vs Marshals lead, Throh. After the setup, everything was outsped and OHKO'd by leaf blade. Good job noodle. Cofagrigus outsped Caitlins Musharna, so it got a 2-HKO here. Zebstrika did work vs Sigiliph and then Mienshao did some work with u-turn. It was not a terribly exciting fight tbh.
Then, N. Oooh boy, I really want to talk about N, because my Serperior pulled of some crazy shit here and it was glorious. I let Reshiram die on purpose so that I could freely get in Serperior. It used leech seed and started coiling up. Zekrom's movepool is shit, so the best thing it could do back was giga impact, which made setup very easy. Once at +6 atk, Serperior cleaned N's entire team. Final boss ladies and gentlemen.
Ghetsis was a bit less interesting. Reshiram killed his Cofagrigus and dealt enough damage such that Bouffalant killed itself with recoil. I brought out Zebstrika. Wrong choice, as Ghetsis chose Seismitoad. Zebstrika used light screen and died to earthquake, but this was not in vain. Serperior took revenge with leaf blade, and used the light screen to set up leech seed on the mighty Hydreigon. Hydreigon proceded to deal about a third of Serperiors health with fire blast, as it took a return in return. Then it missed the next two fire blasts and it just fucking died... to Serperior. Leech seed damage killed it. Even if it didn't miss twice, Serperior would have done well against it. Then it got one more leaf blade off on Eelektross before fainting. Mienshao cleaned up both Eelektross and Bisharp with jump kick. And that was the end.
And now, for the actual tier placements!
I find it hard to place Serperior because it is so lopsided. On the one hand it does some crazy things that even the S tiers can't dream of doing, like soloing multiple major fights with leech seed + coil. But then on the other hand, it sometimes struggles to deal with some random trainers because its coverage is garbage. I know for sure that C is too low for it. I'd put it in B, but I feel like it is better than that. Then again, it might not be consistent enough for A. I want to know how well the snivy line turned out for the others. Until then, I say: Snivy to B tier
Audino, the legend. It really has a lot going on for it: perfect availability, fast exp growth, good early stats that hold up surprisingly long, the absolute best movepool in the game, great ability and a solid typing for its role. Its movepool is completely customizable, so you can cover any pokemon you need Audino to cover. It contributes well in every major battle because of that. Really the only thing holding it back is its middling offensive stats and speed. Because of its unmatched versatility and reliabilty, I'd say: Audino to C. Please use this thing instead of Lilipup and let it surprise you with how fun and versatile it is.
Blitzle is also quite hard to place. Its early-mid game is amazing, but after Skyla it quickly drops off. It's like a solid B tier, borderline A even, during the period from Burgh to Skyla. It beats three major fights with minimal to no help from teammates during this time. But then in all the fights after Skyla it is a D tier, only occasionally killing some bird or fish with thunderbolt or setting up a light screen. Overall, I'd say that C tier is fine for it. Though if someone else uses it too and is more determined about it being B tier, I would be happy to agree.
Yamask is not too great. This mostly comes down to a mediocre movepool. Wisp and curse are quite nice for gym fights, but they are not really needed if you just use actually good pokemon. Its tankiness is also counteracted by its abysmal speed, which means that it often gets statused to death. It has no coverage besides ghost, so every normal type forces a switch. While I don't think it is unusable trash, I still don't see it rising up to D. At least it's not Z tier I guess. Stay in E tier.
Mienfoo is strong af. You get it at a reasonable level (especially in the winter) at Iccirus city, right in time for it to destroy Brycens entire gym. Be sure to give it a lucky egg, and it will be on par with your team in no time. After beating up Brycen, it can go on a killing spree against the fuckton of team plasma grunts with Liepards and Krokoroks you have to face in the dragonspiral tower and relic castle. Mienfoo also comes with a fully usable movepool right of the bat, and a great ability in regenerator. It didn't feel like a liability at all despite its NFE status. You might need to feed it some extra exp or grind some audinos to evolve it before the elite four. However, because it is INSANELY strong, like, archeops levels of strong, it makes up a lot in the final few battles. Considering things like Durant and Druddigon can be C, I'd say: Mienfoo to C. If a jump of two tiers is a little too much, at least keep it out of E and put it in D. Though even an unevolved Mienfoo is still more useful than something like Emolga or Bouffalant will ever be imo.
Been ages since I played BW but I did use Joltik way back when and it was a good Monday, on the B/A borderline leaning A depending on how you experienced it's bulk/power trade off. Bug does it more benefit than harm and compoundeyes thunder is generally pretty disgusting.
I also used Joltik way back when and this is pretty much my thoughts. I think A is fine for it.
re: worst bird- Vullaby is a worse bird than woobat, at least woobat is a friendship evo so you can have a swoobat for Burgh (haven't used it so I don't know much, still feel confident in saying that both suck)
I only had like...2 whiteouts? (One was to a Basculin trainer lol)
I completed my playthrough with Serperior, Audino, Zebstrika, Cofagrigus and Mienshao. Some of the pokemon I used really surprised me in the late game. Here´s a summary of their stats for those interested.
Moves: all the moves (it learns almost all the tm's in the game). Some notable ones throughout the run were retaliate, return, dig, shadow ball, fire blast, blizzard and thunderbolt
Item: expert belt
Gallop (Zebstrika), motor drive, lax
Level: 47
HP: 134
Atk: 117
Def: 73
Sp.atk: 93
Sp.def: 66
Spd 138
Moves: light screen, volt switch, return, wild charge
Item: shell bell
Moves: u-turn, dig, drain punch, jump kick
Item: big root
A small summary of the major late game fights. If you just want to know my final verdict on the tier placement, skip these four paragraphs.
Brycen was really easy. The mvp in this gym was Audino actually. Fire blast OHKO'd vannilish. It outsped and did over half to Beartic, but sadly it got bad luck with swagger hax. With a persim berry, it would have soloed the fight. Mienfoo cleaned up the rest of Brycens team with jump kick. The same thing happened against Drayden. I was kinda scared of him, because I had no real counter to dragon types. However, I did have my trusty Audino, who has an answer to every pokemon in the game with its customizable movepool. Fraxure used dragon dance and then got OHKO´d by blizzard. Druddigon lived one blizzard and then used... chip away?! which did nothing to Audino. I use return as it gets healed, use an ether on blizzard and finish Druddigon next turn. Haxorus also tried setting up dragon dance, as I missed the first blizzard. The second blizzard hit though, but Haxorus was at +2 attack and speed already and I didn't bother reviving any of my other team members who were all dead from the gym trainers. Things looked dire for poor Audino, but then Drayden decided to use his 3000 IQ strat of dragon dance + dragon tail. Audino outsped because of dragon tails negative priority, and it finished Haxorus with a final blizzard. You know you are doing something wrong as a gym leader if a random Audino of all things beats your ass.
The elite four was interesting. After route 10 and victory road, my entire team was level 46. I killed like three audinos with Mienfoo to get it to 48 and then I gave it my only two rare candies to evolve it. Mienshao immediately proved its worth by absolutely decimating Grimsley. I then took on Shauntal who was the hardest for me. My cofagrigus outsped hers, so it won the ditto. Serperior did well vs both Golurk and Jellicent, but then got KO'd by Chandelure. I used Audino to weaken it with shadow ball, which allowed Mienshao to finish it with dig. Then I took on Marshal, who ended up being super easy for me thanks to Serperior. It can easily set up six coils vs Marshals lead, Throh. After the setup, everything was outsped and OHKO'd by leaf blade. Good job noodle. Cofagrigus outsped Caitlins Musharna, so it got a 2-HKO here. Zebstrika did work vs Sigiliph and then Mienshao did some work with u-turn. It was not a terribly exciting fight tbh.
Then, N. Oooh boy, I really want to talk about N, because my Serperior pulled of some crazy shit here and it was glorious. I let Reshiram die on purpose so that I could freely get in Serperior. It used leech seed and started coiling up. Zekrom's movepool is shit, so the best thing it could do back was giga impact, which made setup very easy. Once at +6 atk, Serperior cleaned N's entire team. Final boss ladies and gentlemen.
Ghetsis was a bit less interesting. Reshiram killed his Cofagrigus and dealt enough damage such that Bouffalant killed itself with recoil. I brought out Zebstrika. Wrong choice, as Ghetsis chose Seismitoad. Zebstrika used light screen and died to earthquake, but this was not in vain. Serperior took revenge with leaf blade, and used the light screen to set up leech seed on the mighty Hydreigon. Hydreigon proceded to deal about a third of Serperiors health with fire blast, as it took a return in return. Then it missed the next two fire blasts and it just fucking died... to Serperior. Leech seed damage killed it. Even if it didn't miss twice, Serperior would have done well against it. Then it got one more leaf blade off on Eelektross before fainting. Mienshao cleaned up both Eelektross and Bisharp with jump kick. And that was the end.
And now, for the actual tier placements!
I find it hard to place Serperior because it is so lopsided. On the one hand it does some crazy things that even the S tiers can't dream of doing, like soloing multiple major fights with leech seed + coil. But then on the other hand, it sometimes struggles to deal with some random trainers because its coverage is garbage. I know for sure that C is too low for it. I'd put it in B, but I feel like it is better than that. Then again, it might not be consistent enough for A. I want to know how well the snivy line turned out for the others. Until then, I say: Snivy to B tier
Audino, the legend. It really has a lot going on for it: perfect availability, fast exp growth, good early stats that hold up surprisingly long, the absolute best movepool in the game, great ability and a solid typing for its role. Its movepool is completely customizable, so you can cover any pokemon you need Audino to cover. It contributes well in every major battle because of that. Really the only thing holding it back is its middling offensive stats and speed. Because of its unmatched versatility and reliabilty, I'd say: Audino to C. Please use this thing instead of Lilipup and let it surprise you with how fun and versatile it is.
Blitzle is also quite hard to place. Its early-mid game is amazing, but after Skyla it quickly drops off. It's like a solid B tier, borderline A even, during the period from Burgh to Skyla. It beats three major fights with minimal to no help from teammates during this time. But then in all the fights after Skyla it is a D tier, only occasionally killing some bird or fish with thunderbolt or setting up a light screen. Overall, I'd say that C tier is fine for it. Though if someone else uses it too and is more determined about it being B tier, I would be happy to agree.
Yamask is not too great. This mostly comes down to a mediocre movepool. Wisp and curse are quite nice for gym fights, but they are not really needed if you just use actually good pokemon. Its tankiness is also counteracted by its abysmal speed, which means that it often gets statused to death. It has no coverage besides ghost, so every normal type forces a switch. While I don't think it is unusable trash, I still don't see it rising up to D. At least it's not Z tier I guess. Stay in E tier.
Mienfoo is strong af. You get it at a reasonable level (especially in the winter) at Iccirus city, right in time for it to destroy Brycens entire gym. Be sure to give it a lucky egg, and it will be on par with your team in no time. After beating up Brycen, it can go on a killing spree against the fuckton of team plasma grunts with Liepards and Krokoroks you have to face in the dragonspiral tower and relic castle. Mienfoo also comes with a fully usable movepool right of the bat, and a great ability in regenerator. It didn't feel like a liability at all despite its NFE status. You might need to feed it some extra exp or grind some audinos to evolve it before the elite four. However, because it is INSANELY strong, like, archeops levels of strong, it makes up a lot in the final few battles. Considering things like Durant and Druddigon can be C, I'd say: Mienfoo to C. If a jump of two tiers is a little too much, at least keep it out of E and put it in D. Though even an unevolved Mienfoo is still more useful than something like Emolga or Bouffalant will ever be imo.
Alright, time to respond to this novel.
Serperior:
"On the one hand it does some crazy things that even the S tiers can't dream of doing, like soloing multiple major fights with leech seed + coil."
Holy hyperbole batman. Scraggy vs. Clay, Brycen, Shauntal, Caitlin, and possibly Grimsley would beg to disagree. Also SD Excadrill solos anything not named Marshall because it was banned in BW for a reason. Also Archeops can sweep Brycen and Skyla.
"I know for sure that C is too low for it. I'd put it in B, but I feel like it is better than that. Then again, it might not be consistent enough for A."
There is no way in Shiftry Serperior will ever see A as long as I am running this tier list. Severe movepool rut AND major battle rut till Clay post Gym 2. Look at how many A tiers don't need to setup at all for proof... (through Scraggy can get some mileage out of Work Up + Moxie, it likely doesn't need it due to low Speed).
Sure, you can Coil, but that's at level 38. 3/4 of the game is a significant time to go without setup. Also, when even Swoobat hits harder than Serperior...yeah no. Also, let's look at the definition of C tier:
C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.
Match-up based. Let's go down the list.
Chili: It can beat the Lillipup. Obviously monkey is bad.
Lenora: You can maybe do stuff here but they will still hit you hard.
Burgh: Dwebble is possible, but the others are a solid no.
Elesa: Torment + Leech Seed? You can't sit there and tell me this is some paragon of efficiency.
Clay: Best matchup, though Excadrill might finish you off.
Skyla: sigh
It's fairly reasonable to assume you might not be evolved at this point with a rounded team. Skyla's highest is 35, and even Cheren doesn't have his starter evolved in your subsequent battle. Why go through this hogwash when I can literally go catch a Joltik and have roasted duck?
Brycen: Maybe Cryagonal? But yeah, don't even try Coil here.
Drayden: Oh look Dragon Tail makes Coil useless.
Shauntal: Decent here due to beating half her team.
Grimsley: Doubtful. Most of his mons have coverage to kill the snake, though you could probably beat Krookodile and lol Liepard but ANYTHING beats Liepard.
Caitlin: Yeah, no.
Marshall: HOW did you set up on him? Throh has Storm Throw which always crits, and tons of other moves can crit.
N: Yeah, your strategy doesn't work in Black. It does work in White though.
Ghetsis: You got lucky. You can't tell me that's an efficient way to kill Hydriegon when Fighting types exist.
I mean I can kinda see B, but let's compare to fellow B tiers:
Lillipup: Yeah, I see the dog more useful.
Axew: Easier, more efficient setup.
Petilil: Sleep enables easier setup.
Timburr: Judging by how well Eviolite Gurdurr is working right now I'd say it's better if not roughly even due to getting Timburr off the ground.
Sawk (White): Only equal due to rarity
Sewaddle: Arguably worse matchups, but SD is great. I'd say about even, MAYBE Snivy edges it out slightly.
Tympole: Yeah, Snivy is better.
It may fit in B tier, but idk. Base 75 offenses are just...not good.
I'd like to see more testing before Audino goes to C. I don't see it on the level of Dwebble or Litwick.
Blitzle in C? Ehhh. What does this thing do in the E4 besides die? Also, its fraility is astounding.
Mienfoo is not more useful than Emolga or Bouffalant. Emolga has Acrobatics and nice Electric STAB, and doesn't wait until Unova freezes over to evolve. Bouffalant is one of the few mons actually usable in the final fights albeit late. Why use Mienfoo when literally every other Fighting is just better? D tier, no question, mostly due to literally EVERY Fighting sans Terrakion being available prior.
Yamask I can agree with, that thing is hot garbage.
I don't want this to become a dumpster fire like Chikorita is in GSC threads. I want some solid proof of Serperior being decent without the user going out of their way to force it in questionable matchups (Skyla, Elesa). It can maybe see B, but...ugh.
Been doing a playthrough myself, up to Mistralton.
Tepig: About what you'd expect. Really strong early-game and its midgame is okayish. Rock Smash hasn't aged super well but it has been getting along just fine. Ironically lost to N's Scraggy one on one thanks to a Swagger and survived Rock Smash (It's Scraggy's way of saying to Tepig: "Look, I'M the best Fighting-type in the game, and don't you forget that!"). Currently Pignite.
Woobat: Woobat is... well... blah. Early-game it tended to get sniped so I had to resort to Audino farming to get it up to level. Its Gym performance had been okayish. Actually outsped Lenora's Herdier and was able to tank a Take Down (Lv18), and can do things with good luck I guess? Burgh is its good gym and it didn't disappoint though I didn't use it against Dwebble. Elesa doesn't need much discussion. With Calm Mind at Lv29 it can take on Clay's Palpitoad and do things to Excadrill if it's evolved (Mine didn't evolve until the Bianca Fight after Clay at Lv30... Don't ask how I managed to last this long with Woobat), it's Bianca matchup is good outside of the dog and Dewott if she has it. It's nothing amazing, but I don't think it's too bad.
Yamask: Actually decent with Eviolite. Will-O-Wisp + Hex allows it to take on things it otherwise couldn't with the help of items. With item help, it can solo Elesa with no X-Items (Lv26 Eviolite with -SpD can tank two Volt Switches so you can pretty much heal every other turn, just be ready for a lot of RNG fun), but it's an "inefficient solo". It can also take on Clay's Excadrill who doesn't care about Hone Claws after burn and slowly deal with it with Night Shade, but also needs items, has luck involved, and isn't super efficient. The basic gist of it is this: It can get the job done, but it needs some healing items and Eviolite and isn't very efficient at it relative to other options.
Ferroseed: Limited experience with it but it is actually fairly impressive. It gets Curse and Gyro Ball right out of the gate and its other moves (namely Metal Claw and Pin Missile) aren't too shabby, especially with Gyro's limited PP. Its low speed sucks, but good typing, good bulk, and the ability to use that low speed as a strength make up for it. Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. Also helps that you get Lucky Egg in the same area so catching it up isn't really painful at all.
I'll be a bit more comprehensive when I'm done but these are some impressions after pretty much the first half of this playthrough. For those interested, I got to Mistralton in the 31-32 range.
Been doing a playthrough myself, up to Mistralton.
Tepig: About what you'd expect. Really strong early-game and its midgame is okayish. Rock Smash hasn't aged super well but it has been getting along just fine. Ironically lost to N's Scraggy one on one thanks to a Swagger and survived Rock Smash (It's Scraggy's way of saying to Tepig: "Look, I'M the best Fighting-type in the game, and don't you forget that!"). Currently Pignite.
Woobat: Woobat is... well... blah. Early-game it tended to get sniped so I had to resort to Audino farming to get it up to level. Its Gym performance had been okayish. Actually outsped Lenora's Herdier and was able to tank a Take Down (Lv18), and can do things with good luck I guess? Burgh is its good gym and it didn't disappoint though I didn't use it against Dwebble. Elesa doesn't need much discussion. With Calm Mind at Lv29 it can take on Clay's Palpitoad and do things to Excadrill if it's evolved (Mine didn't evolve until the Bianca Fight after Clay at Lv30... Don't ask how I managed to last this long with Woobat), it's Bianca matchup is good outside of the dog and Dewott if she has it. It's nothing amazing, but I don't think it's too bad.
Yamask: Actually decent with Eviolite. Will-O-Wisp + Hex allows it to take on things it otherwise couldn't with the help of items. With item help, it can solo Elesa with no X-Items (Lv26 Eviolite with -SpD can tank two Volt Switches so you can pretty much heal every other turn, just be ready for a lot of RNG fun), but it's an "inefficient solo". It can also take on Clay's Excadrill who doesn't care about Hone Claws after burn and slowly deal with it with Night Shade, but also needs items, has luck involved, and isn't super efficient. The basic gist of it is this: It can get the job done, but it needs some healing items and Eviolite and isn't very efficient at it relative to other options.
Ferroseed: Limited experience with it but it is actually fairly impressive. It gets Curse and Gyro Ball right out of the gate and its other moves (namely Metal Claw and Pin Missile) aren't too shabby, especially with Gyro's limited PP. Its low speed sucks, but good typing, good bulk, and the ability to use that low speed as a strength make up for it. Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. Also helps that you get Lucky Egg in the same area so catching it up isn't really painful at all.
I'll be a bit more comprehensive when I'm done but these are some impressions after pretty much the first half of this playthrough. For those interested, I got to Mistralton in the 31-32 range.
Minor Update: Eviolite Whirlipede is good. Tanking two Psybeams from a wild Sigilyph is amazing. It has issues dealing damage but mostly 3HKOs stuff. Evolved to Scolipede pre-Elesa (without overgrinding). Eviolite Bulk Up Gurdurr can take on Elesa pretty handily assuming RNG doesn't screw you over (I opted for Sheer Force Rock Tomb and regretted that decision). Volt Switch is roughly a 3HKO btw. Scolipede can barely two shot Emolga with Poison Tail but must watch out for Static. Will update more but team is okay. I would assume Palpitoad fares decently against Elesa with Muddy Water (probably a 2HKO on her pokes).
Also thanks whoever merged my posts earlier (apologies, RNG was kinda annoying at the time).
