Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

Well. Drillbur and Gurdurr tore up Elesa's gym. With Guts, the latter can turn paralysis from an errant Thunder Wave or Static into an advantage, if full paralysis doesn't kick in, and gets Chip Away to ignore Double Team spam. I'll probably evolve it before facing Clay and see how Conkeldurr fares. I'm hoping to evolve Swadloon soon as well, but falling to N's Sigilyph hasn't helped that goal. (got dragged out by Whirlwind, then took an Air Cutter)

Sadly, Dewott hasn't had much time to shine, though Clay's gym may change that.
 
Alright, time to respond to this novel.
Serperior:
"On the one hand it does some crazy things that even the S tiers can't dream of doing, like soloing multiple major fights with leech seed + coil."
Holy hyperbole batman. Scraggy vs. Clay, Brycen, Shauntal, Caitlin, and possibly Grimsley would beg to disagree. Also SD Excadrill solos anything not named Marshall because it was banned in BW for a reason. Also Archeops can sweep Brycen and Skyla.
I was mostly referring to effortlessly soloing N with this, but I might have gone a bit overboard with this comment I admit. Serperior still has an insanely good end-game potential, better than the other two starters I would say.

2. Look at how many A tiers don't need to setup at all for proof... (through Scraggy can get some mileage out of Work Up + Moxie, it likely doesn't need it due to low Speed).
Sure, you can Coil, but that's at level 38. 3/4 of the game is a significant time to go without setup. Also, when even Swoobat hits harder than Serperior...yeah no.
This is not true. Servine gets coil at level 36, so it's essentially a move gained on evolution. Unless you actively avoid as many trainers as possible and neglect the lucky egg, it is very reasonable to hit level 36 at around the celestial tower, just in time for Skyla. It is only one level higher than Skyla's Swanna. '3/4 of the game' is also exaggerated. If you get coil Serpererior before Skyla, you still get 3 gym fights, 4 elite four fights, 2 rival fights and two final boss fights. That's like half of the game still.
No way that swoobat deals more damage than serperior lol. It's best move is air slash compared to Serperiors leaf blade, with essentially the same offensive stat. I really don't get how this low attack stat is such a problem to you. It's low ON PAPER, but that doesn't mean anything if servine can still consistanly get 2-HKO's on random trainers with stab or return. Obviously having high attack is better than having low attack, but 2-HKO'ing by getting enemies in red with the first attack everytime is not better than 2-HKO'ing by getting them in yellow everytime. And even if it does fail to 2-HKO, it is not the end of the world because Serperior is also very bulky so it can take an extra hit if it needs to.

Match-up based. Let's go down the list.
Chili: It can beat the Lillipup. Obviously monkey is bad.
Lenora: You can maybe do stuff here but they will still hit you hard.
Burgh: Dwebble is possible, but the others are a solid no.
Elesa: Torment + Leech Seed? You can't sit there and tell me this is some paragon of efficiency.
Clay: Best matchup, though Excadrill might finish you off.
Skyla: sigh
It's fairly reasonable to assume you might not be evolved at this point with a rounded team. Skyla's highest is 35, and even Cheren doesn't have his starter evolved in your subsequent battle. Why go through this hogwash when I can literally go catch a Joltik and have roasted duck?
Brycen: Maybe Cryagonal? But yeah, don't even try Coil here.
Drayden: Oh look Dragon Tail makes Coil useless.
Shauntal: Decent here due to beating half her team.
Grimsley: Doubtful. Most of his mons have coverage to kill the snake, though you could probably beat Krookodile and lol Liepard but ANYTHING beats Liepard.
Caitlin: Yeah, no.
Marshall: HOW did you set up on him? Throh has Storm Throw which always crits, and tons of other moves can crit.
N: Yeah, your strategy doesn't work in Black. It does work in White though.
Ghetsis: You got lucky. You can't tell me that's an efficient way to kill Hydriegon when Fighting types exist.
Ok, so once again you are listing what the matchups would look like on paper, but it is really not like that in practice. At least not for me.

Chili: agree. It beats lilipup and does so-so against the monkey. You get your own monkey for free though so this is really not a problem.

Lenora: it two-shots herdier, taking one take down in return. Switch to pampour to avoid retaliate. In my experience, Watchog tries to spam hypnosis until you are asleep, which servine can take advantage of with a chesto berry and leaf tornado accuracy drops. Overall, servine is pretty useful here.

Burgh: you beat Dwebble, but the others are a no-go

Elesa: shitty matchup. I only mentioned Leech seed + torment as a last resort option if you really can't beat her otherwise, but it is definitely not a reliable way of beating her.

Clay: easy solo

Skyla: not sigh, easy solo, for me at least. This matchup is bad on paper, but with coil it's really not. I'm just telling you my experience. If others can evolve their servine in time without too much hassle and pull off a coil sweep too, Skyla should definitely not be considered a bad matchup. Basically, if it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid.

Brycen: yeah, cryogonal. Because of its speed it also gets either a leaf blade or a leech seed off against Beartic, which should make it easy for something else to finish the fight. Definitely no sweep, but Serperior can still be quite useful here.

Drayden: It can honestly duel with fraxure quite easily. Just use leech seed and spam some returns. Even haxorus can't really kill Serperior quickly. Again, no sweep but far from useless.

Shauntal: agree. It beats half her team so it's quite good here.

Grimsley: It's decent here actually. It beats both Krookodile and Liepard, so again, half the team beaten.

Caitlin: aside from Sigiliph, nothing hits Serperior super effectively so it can put its bulk to use. Leech seed takes advantage of Musharnas and Reuniclus' high HP and leaf blade can do some damage. You can't really set up anywhere (maybe Gothitelle), which is a shame, but overall this is not a straight up bad matchup at all.

Marshall: leech seed heals back a lot of HP because of Throh's high HP. This makes setup easy. It somehow never used storm throw against me, but if even if it did, I'm sure Serperior could take a couple with leech seed support. After six coils, everything just dies to leaf blade. So yeah, easy matchup.

N: you are right, the setup works best in black. In white, you have to lure in Carracosta somehow and then start the setup. Overall, I would still consider this one of Serperiors best matchups in the game, considering how strong N is otherwise.

Ghetsis: I know I got lucky here, I'm definitely not saying Serperior has a good matchup against Ghetsis because it doesn't. I just felt like mentioning it because I thought it was funny, and because it really shows just how bulky Serperior is. Overall, poor matchup.

This is the full overview of MY experience with Serperior. I hope other people can ratify its performance against things like Skyla and Marshal. Anyway, based on these results, I would say Serperior deserves B AT LEAST.

I'd like to see more testing before Audino goes to C. I don't see it on the level of Dwebble or Litwick.

Blitzle in C? Ehhh. What does this thing do in the E4 besides die? Also, its fraility is astounding.

Mienfoo is not more useful than Emolga or Bouffalant. Emolga has Acrobatics and nice Electric STAB, and doesn't wait until Unova freezes over to evolve. Bouffalant is one of the few mons actually usable in the final fights albeit late. Why use Mienfoo when literally every other Fighting is just better? D tier, no question, mostly due to literally EVERY Fighting sans Terrakion being available prior.

Yamask I can agree with, that thing is hot garbage.
About Audino, that's fair. I personally feel like it has way more upportunity to be useful than something like litwick, but this probably needs more testing. I recommend it though, it's really fun to use and it is beyond versatile.

Blitzle is already in C. You put it there yourself... I don't see it drop below that though, with how great its mid game is.

You would say emolga is useful? but.. but 75/75 offenses, ew.
In all seriousness though, Mienfoo not E tier garbage. It might come late, but it immediately becomes usefull against Brycen and team plasma. Compared to other fighting types, it might not be the best. However, the tier placement is done in a vacuum, and then it can't be denied that Mienfoo is still useful.
By the way, how come axew is an exception? it evolves at level 48 compared to Mienfoos 50, which is not a big difference, yet there is a difference of three whole tiers between them. Even durant can be in C just for doing well against the elite four, so why can't Mienshao? At the very least put Mienfoo in D, because even the unevolved Mienfoo was more useful than my cofagrigus ever was.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Pre-Contributor
This is not from my current playthrough, but someone mentioned Ferroseed earlier. I can say from previous experience that Ferroseed is actually nice, despite coming late and having a low Speed (which is an offset for the ability to abuse Gyro Ball). With Rocky Helmet from Cold Storage area, Ferroseed can easily punish contact users (especially useful against Audino's Double Slap if you are grinding without Lucky Egg). It also has a really solid matchup against Drayden; even if they Dtail it, they are taking Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet damage. It also does alright against Brycen I guess, but everything does alright against Brycen, so I don't involve it too much. Beats N's Zekrom, Carracosta, Archeops and Klinklang. Against Ghetsis, Bouffalant, Seismitoad and Bisharp are unable to break it (forgot to mention but it can beat them with Leech Seed or hitting them super effectively). The last moveset I had for it was Gyro Ball/Power Whip/Leech Seed and Curse (which made sweeping Drayden easy). I would support a rise to B (if it were to be nommed because idr if it was), but not higher, since it does come rather late and still has 4x weakness to Fire, which isn't an uncommon coverage, but definitely not rare.
 
Magnus0, I'm sorry I kinda went overboard on Snivy. Maybe I should lighten up a bit and drop the stigma of "Snivy is weak." About the Coil thing - I was looking at Serperior's movepool - I didn't know Servine got it then so 36 is perfectly reasonable. I appreciate your tenacity about Snivy though. I'm gonna stop responding to your posts for now because I don't want to derail the thread. My brain is more inclined to think straight type advantages are more effective than forcing setup. I'm going to promote it to B, but again, I want more testing from other users and am not opposed to a drop. I myself will test it after my current run is done, but that will take some time.

Mienfoo is D, this is not changing. Axew is B because you get DD not far off when you catch it, it has an evo that's pretty good too, and you get SD at Haxorus, and beyond Scrafty its endgame is unrivaled. Beating Brycen or Plasma goons is no feat - any well-equipped team should be able to handle them. Also Grimsley is beat by a well-built team too.

Derp Blitzle in C.

Let's move on to discuss some other things. But I hope users will test Snivy in the background and provide input after the dust settles.

This is not from my current playthrough, but someone mentioned Ferroseed earlier. I can say from previous experience that Ferroseed is actually nice, despite coming late and having a low Speed (which is an offset for the ability to abuse Gyro Ball). With Rocky Helmet from Cold Storage area, Ferroseed can easily punish contact users (especially useful against Audino's Double Slap if you are grinding without Lucky Egg). It also has a really solid matchup against Drayden; even if they Dtail it, they are taking Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet damage. It also does alright against Brycen I guess, but everything does alright against Brycen, so I don't involve it too much. Beats N's Zekrom, Carracosta, Archeops and Klinklang. Against Ghetsis, Bouffalant, Seismitoad and Bisharp are unable to break it (forgot to mention but it can beat them with Leech Seed or hitting them super effectively). The last moveset I had for it was Gyro Ball/Power Whip/Leech Seed and Curse (which made sweeping Drayden easy). I would support a rise to B (if it were to be nommed because idr if it was), but not higher, since it does come rather late and still has 4x weakness to Fire, which isn't an uncommon coverage, but definitely not rare.
Leech Seed is an Egg move from Cottonee, Petilil, or Snivy line, so that's off the table (ironically I bred it in one playthrough but breeding isn't considered for these rankings). This might go to B though.

Discussion slate: Ferroseed, Sewaddle, Coballion, Tirtouga, Roggenrola
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Pre-Contributor
Magnus0, I'm sorry I kinda went overboard on Snivy. Maybe I should lighten up a bit and drop the stigma of "Snivy is weak." About the Coil thing - I was looking at Serperior's movepool - I didn't know Servine got it then so 36 is perfectly reasonable. I appreciate your tenacity about Snivy though. I'm gonna stop responding to your posts for now because I don't want to derail the thread. My brain is more inclined to think straight type advantages are more effective than forcing setup. I'm going to promote it to B, but again, I want more testing from other users and am not opposed to a drop. I myself will test it after my current run is done, but that will take some time.

Mienfoo is D, this is not changing. Axew is B because you get DD not far off when you catch it, it has an evo that's pretty good too, and you get SD at Haxorus, and beyond Scrafty its endgame is unrivaled. Beating Brycen or Plasma goons is no feat - any well-equipped team should be able to handle them. Also Grimsley is beat by a well-built team too.

Derp Blitzle in C.

Let's move on to discuss some other things. But I hope users will test Snivy in the background and provide input after the dust settles.



Leech Seed is an Egg move from Cottonee, Petilil, or Snivy line, so that's off the table (ironically I bred it in one playthrough but breeding isn't considered for these rankings). This might go to B though.

Discussion slate: Ferroseed, Sewaddle, Coballion, Tirtouga, Roggenrola
Huh strange I could recall I had Leech Seed on that. Well anyways, it still beats what I mentioned when setting up Curse so anyways
 
Huh strange I could recall I had Leech Seed on that. Well anyways, it still beats what I mentioned when setting up Curse so anyways
You were probably thinking of Ingrain.

Now that I think of it, I think all the Grass types sans Maractus, Cottonee and maybe Deerling will probably be in B.

Petilil in A is debatable - covered that above and it has similar issues to Snivy.

Maractus has a chance in C - you can use it right out of the box and its stats aren't horrible - 86/106 offenses.

Deerling is good, but the ball doesn't really roll out until Mistralton where you get Megahorn via Heart Scale and likely at Horn Leech then. You can take on Clay, but 60 HP with 50 defenses is iffy, and you don't get Energy Ball (off 40 Sp. Atk) until 32, though Jump Kick can slightly remedy that.

Also, I have an upcoming exam so I'm gonna possibly try to be brief for the next few days (might still make long posts tho anyway, haha).

Discussion slate: Ferroseed, Sewaddle, Coballion, Tirtouga, Roggenrola
 
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Merritt

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Petilil in A is debatable - covered that above and it has similar issues to Snivy.
Can't agree that it has similar issues as Snivy honestly. Where Snivy has base power issues, Lilligant is strong, and it scales very well into lategame. It picks up heavily after 26 which is when you should Sun Stone it, after it gets Giga Drain to upgrade Magical Leaf (so Petilil certainly isn't useless beforehand). Lilligant is extremely specialized as a Grass-type attacker due to its offensive movepool, but if it's fighting something that isn't resistant to Grass it's going to do amazingly.

It does very well at route clearing without setup due to its high Special Attack, but it particularly shines for major battles. Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance are incredibly amazing for safe setup and sweeping, so Lilligant hits benchmarks to fight major battles very easily without grinding. Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance is so good that Lilligant can actually fight at a disadvantage rather well too - it's fairly uncommon for Lilligant to be useless.

When Giga Drain starts losing its shine lategame (around Elite Four time), Lilligant is blessed with Own Tempo Petal Dance, instantly skyrocketing its damage potential once again. It can even make do without Own Tempo, it just sweeps slightly worse.

Petilil comes rather early and has an outstanding case for being the best Grass-type in the game, doing everything you want a Grass-type to do and even more. It doesn't do well against Pokemon resistant to Grass, sure, but such is the case for most Pokemon that aren't S rank. This isn't a judgement on Petilil's placement, but the difference is that Serperior acts as a bulky sweeper that leans on the Defense buff of Coil for setup. Lilligant, when it needs to set up (and it doesn't as often as you'd think) uses Sleep Powder as a better 'defensive boost' and is leaning on the Special Attack buff of Quiver Dance to OHKO sweep - the SpDef is a side bonus, not a focus.
 
Can't agree that it has similar issues as Snivy honestly. Where Snivy has base power issues, Lilligant is strong, and it scales very well into lategame. It picks up heavily after 26 which is when you should Sun Stone it, after it gets Giga Drain to upgrade Magical Leaf (so Petilil certainly isn't useless beforehand). Lilligant is extremely specialized as a Grass-type attacker due to its offensive movepool, but if it's fighting something that isn't resistant to Grass it's going to do amazingly.

It does very well at route clearing without setup due to its high Special Attack, but it particularly shines for major battles. Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance are incredibly amazing for safe setup and sweeping, so Lilligant hits benchmarks to fight major battles very easily without grinding. Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance is so good that Lilligant can actually fight at a disadvantage rather well too - it's fairly uncommon for Lilligant to be useless.

When Giga Drain starts losing its shine lategame (around Elite Four time), Lilligant is blessed with Own Tempo Petal Dance, instantly skyrocketing its damage potential once again. It can even make do without Own Tempo, it just sweeps slightly worse.

Petilil comes rather early and has an outstanding case for being the best Grass-type in the game, doing everything you want a Grass-type to do and even more. It doesn't do well against Pokemon resistant to Grass, sure, but such is the case for most Pokemon that aren't S rank. This isn't a judgement on Petilil's placement, but the difference is that Serperior acts as a bulky sweeper that leans on the Defense buff of Coil for setup. Lilligant, when it needs to set up (and it doesn't as often as you'd think) uses Sleep Powder as a better 'defensive boost' and is leaning on the Special Attack buff of Quiver Dance to OHKO sweep - the SpDef is a side bonus, not a focus.
This is true. I've used Petilil in B2 and IIRC it like swept Elesa?

You know what, I'm probably gonna do a mono Grass type run next. I know this isn't typically considered for this tier list, but all the Grass types have merits and they should be judged. I think everything else for the most part (save maybe Coballion) is pretty fine in their current tiers unless I am overlooking something. I think I was downplaying Petilil because both it and Joltik were beaten to death in the old thread (I think Upper Mid was consensus for both). If this comes to fruition I will be testing Snivy, Petilil, Sewaddle, Deerling, Maractus, and Ferroseed. Cottonee is not moving because it sucks. I've used Foongus before-it's usable but so slow and doesn't stand out, and you don't get Spore until level 62.

I want someone to test Mincinno if possible. I think you could make a case for B tier with its wide coverage and Technican (though it is frail).

And if I'm off base with something, feel free to challenge me on it. Everyone has a voice and all opinions barring insanely contrived ones (like Alomomola to A) are valid.

Edit: Mienfoo in D is fixed now.

Discussion slate: Grass types (including Snivy) Coballion, Tirtouga, Roggenrola, Minccino
 
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Mienfoo is currently still E in the OP, so that´s why I was so adamant about it. Thanks for putting it in D now.

I have a lot of free time lately, so I can do some more testing. I can do a run with Simisear, Leavanny, Boldore (traded for emolga), emolga, cinccino and cobalion. If emolga ends up as bad as I think it will end up based on Zebstrikas late-game performance, I might replace it for something else like druddigon or something. I'll see.
 
I’ve been running with Roggenrola, just entering the forest. Decimated the normal gym and Rock Blast really early is great- even at worst it’s as good as rock throw. No clue how it’ll fare later on but it’s pulling weight atm and will likely continue to do so before I get to Clay
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Pre-Contributor
I’ve been running with Roggenrola, just entering the forest. Decimated the normal gym and Rock Blast really early is great- even at worst it’s as good as rock throw. No clue how it’ll fair later on but it’s pulling weight atm and will likely continue to do so before I get to Clay
I am atm using Roggenrola as well, Rock Blast is pretty lit (at least for Audino grinding). I am seeing Gigalith (if I obtain it by the time I reach Elesa) crushing her and having a solid matchup against Burgh (excluding Leavanny). Probs good for Skyla and Brycen but we will see how it will fare.
 
So I got Stoutland after Route 16 training. After a few massages (some with Soothe Bell) it OHKOed every one of Cheren's mons with Return.

Stoutland OP plz nerf. Heck, even Herdier could probably do that matchup with one Work Up based on the absolute destruction that went down on Bianca and Cheren around Route 4. It's only deficiency is just barely not OHKOing some stuff, but when you 2HKO everything with unparalled bulk for an offensive mon you are amazing.

If possible, can other users use their dogs against Burgh and Elesa? I benched Herdier for Eviolite Gurdurr for both.
 
So I got Stoutland after Route 16 training. After a few massages (some with Soothe Bell) it OHKOed every one of Cheren's mons with Return.

Stoutland OP plz nerf. Heck, even Herdier could probably do that matchup with one Work Up based on the absolute destruction that went down on Bianca and Cheren around Route 4. It's only deficiency is just barely not OHKOing some stuff, but when you 2HKO everything with unparalled bulk for an offensive mon you are amazing.

If possible, can other users use their dogs against Burgh and Elesa? I benched Herdier for Eviolite Gurdurr for both.
I’ll go dog against Elesa, I’ll get back to you on the results today or tomorrow probably
 
Glad to see that this topic has started up!

On the subject of Roggenrola, is it worth considering delaying having it until the Route 7 trade for instant Gigalith? Its problems are not nearly so exacerbated as the likes of Zubat in previous games, but it might be worth looking at considering not catching it straight away.

Pros:

* You don’t have to train the damn thing up. Roggenrola can certainly struggle in some match-ups, and its best STAB for a long time is Rock Blast.

* Having Gigalith is not reliant on trading

* It still is around for very good match-ups: Gigalith has type advantage over Skyla and Brycen, and it’s a surprisingly good candidate for fighting Iris/Drayden thanks to its high Defense.

Cons:

* You miss its general best match-ups: Roggenrola has a type resistance against Lenora and can do just fine with 85 base Def, he does very well against Burgh outside of Leavanny, and he does reasonably well against Elesa. Clay, however, is a lost cause.

* Roggenrola’s start isn’t too bad at all. Though Boldore is a long ways away at level 25, Roggenrola has base 75 Attack and base 85 Def, and the majority of foes will be Normals, and the Eviolite from Driftveil City can be used to great effect.
 
Glad to see that this topic has started up!

On the subject of Roggenrola, is it worth considering delaying having it until the Route 7 trade for instant Gigalith? Its problems are not nearly so exacerbated as the likes of Zubat in previous games, but it might be worth looking at considering not catching it straight away.

Pros:

* You don’t have to train the damn thing up. Roggenrola can certainly struggle in some match-ups, and its best STAB for a long time is Rock Blast.

* Having Gigalith is not reliant on trading

* It still is around for very good match-ups: Gigalith has type advantage over Skyla and Brycen, and it’s a surprisingly good candidate for fighting Iris/Drayden thanks to its high Defense.

Cons:

* You miss its general best match-ups: Roggenrola has a type resistance against Lenora and can do just fine with 85 base Def, he does very well against Burgh outside of Leavanny, and he does reasonably well against Elesa. Clay, however, is a lost cause.

* Roggenrola’s start isn’t too bad at all. Though Boldore is a long ways away at level 25, Roggenrola has base 75 Attack and base 85 Def, and the majority of foes will be Normals, and the Eviolite from Driftveil City can be used to great effect.
Er, there's no trade for Boldore in this game. The trade is for Emolga. (your Boldore for their Emolga)
 
Glad to see that this topic has started up!

On the subject of Roggenrola, is it worth considering delaying having it until the Route 7 trade for instant Gigalith? Its problems are not nearly so exacerbated as the likes of Zubat in previous games, but it might be worth looking at considering not catching it straight away.

Pros:

* You don’t have to train the damn thing up. Roggenrola can certainly struggle in some match-ups, and its best STAB for a long time is Rock Blast.

* Having Gigalith is not reliant on trading

* It still is around for very good match-ups: Gigalith has type advantage over Skyla and Brycen, and it’s a surprisingly good candidate for fighting Iris/Drayden thanks to its high Defense.

Cons:

* You miss its general best match-ups: Roggenrola has a type resistance against Lenora and can do just fine with 85 base Def, he does very well against Burgh outside of Leavanny, and he does reasonably well against Elesa. Clay, however, is a lost cause.

* Roggenrola’s start isn’t too bad at all. Though Boldore is a long ways away at level 25, Roggenrola has base 75 Attack and base 85 Def, and the majority of foes will be Normals, and the Eviolite from Driftveil City can be used to great effect.
The trade on route seven is b2/w2 only. In b/w, the you trade the boldore and get an emolga in return.
edit: got ninja'd
 
Guys Stoutland might have the smallest hint of S tier.

Testing all 4 mons vs. Clay, level 33.
Stoutland:
Return, crit, OHKO Krokorok (confimed non crit-Return kills in repeat attempt to confirm this)
Return, dead Palpitoad.
Excadrill, Dig, sends to roughly 25% HP. Another Dig finishes it off. And Bulldoze does like, 1/3 of Stoutland's HP? Note this is without Intimidate.

Scolipede:
Iron Defense. Bulldoze drops Speed but I outspeed and OHKO.
Drill outspeeds but misses Rock Slide (I'd imagine it'd likely be barely shy of a 2HKO without Iron Defense). 2 Digs kills the mole.
Bug Bite can 2HKO Palpitoad, but Aqua Ring can maybe change that. I think I outsped (probably doesn't matter).

Gurdurr:
Swagger, Bulk Up turn 1.
Hit myself turn 2, low green. Next turn Torment, kill Krokorok.
Palpitoad. Aqua Ring, Dig, snap out of confusion, OHKO.
Wake-Up Slap OHKOed Drill.

Palpitoad:
It's..awkward. It can work with Rain Dance but your rain might run out before Clay's Palpitoad falls. Scald knocks his Palpitoad into healing range but OHKOs the others. Still good though.

I like all four members but I can't decide if Scolipede or Palpitoad is the worst atm.

Keep up the great posts!
 
Er, there's no trade for Boldore in this game. The trade is for Emolga. (your Boldore for their Emolga)

You’re right, my apologies. I got mixed up clearly.

With that said, there is some merit in considering my points, as you can just wait until Twist Mountain to capture a Boldore and then instantly trade; they have very similar join times, only with this Gigalith would also miss Skyla. I can’t see it being worth it, especially since there’s no tangible benefit for those with no trading access.
 
You’re right, my apologies. I got mixed up clearly.

With that said, there is some merit in considering my points, as you can just wait until Twist Mountain to capture a Boldore and then instantly trade; they have very similar join times, only with this Gigalith would also miss Skyla. I can’t see it being worth it, especially since there’s no tangible benefit for those with no trading access.
You can technically also catch it at chargestone cave, so it can still be around for Skyla.

I wouldn't recommend this though, because you will miss out on some of its best matchups. It's great against Lenora, Burgh, and Elesa. If you can't trade, not getting roggenrola right away is even more of a bad idea, because boldore's stats would already start to become mediocre. And if you can trade, getting roggenrola right away is still more effecient because you can get gigalith earlier than chargestone cave. You can have gigalith at around Elesa.
 
Guys Stoutland might have the smallest hint of S tier.
A is the highest it should go.
On my White playthrough I had a Stoutland as well as an Archeops and an Excadrill. It was pretty evident that the latter two were a cut above the rest of my team. Archeops has speed and power. Defeatest was irrelevant as it almost never activated- usually Archeops just fainted. SD + Earthquake on Excadrill was a deadly combo. Stoutland was solid, definitely a great thing to find early game but I don't think that it's on the same tier as those two, or something like Scraggy which solos 3/4 of the Elite 4 and is fantastic elsewhere.
 
A is the highest it should go.
On my White playthrough I had a Stoutland as well as an Archeops and an Excadrill. It was pretty evident that the latter two were a cut above the rest of my team. Archeops has speed and power. Defeatest was irrelevant as it almost never activated- usually Archeops just fainted. SD + Earthquake on Excadrill was a deadly combo. Stoutland was solid, definitely a great thing to find early game but I don't think that it's on the same tier as those two, or something like Scraggy which solos 3/4 of the Elite 4 and is fantastic elsewhere.
Yeah, I don't think it's on the level of the other S tiers. But you have to consider:
  1. Comes earlier than the S tiers. Has about 5 major battles that Drilbur can't partake in, and like 7 major battles the other S tiers can't partake in.
  2. It is probably the best early game mon till the desert barring Sawk (Black). Drilbur is in its rut until about Lenora and is annoying to find.
  3. Intimidate is a wonderful ability, letting you setup on things you shouldn't be able to.
  4. It has fantastic bulk (85/90/90), and never really stops 2HKOing things (base 100 Attack), and 80 Speed is more than fine, more than bent on getting by (props if you get the reference) to outspeed most everything in-game (outspeeds most gym leader mons).
  5. Needs no TMs sans Return (10,000) and maybe Dig (not out of the way at all) to function, which you can get by simply going to Nimbasa Gym even if you've been spending like mad. Archen likes Rock Slide which if you want it early requires a detour. Likewise, it gets everything it needs when it needs it naturally, sans the elemental fangs via Heart Scale (which aside from Swanna are really pointless, max Return does more than a non-quad super-effective fang with perfect accuracy).
  6. Easy to obtain compared to other A tiers like Sigilyph and Sawk (White). Even Archen requires a backtrack (albeit minimal because you should have the bike first). Drilbur is annoying to generate dust clouds with because Wellspring Cave is so small and can easily cut through a supply of Repel.
  7. Only one weakness (Fighting), which Intimidate helps with. Even then, only one real major boss uses Fighting types, and he is commonly agreed to be the hardest in the game anyway. The S tiers have 2 weaknesses (Scrafty), 3 (Darmanitan), 4 (Excadrill) or 5 (Archeops).
  8. Only real bad matchup from my experiences so far is fourth N fight. It can solo, but Iron Defense Boldore and Ferroseed is slow going. Even then, Stoutland can beat Joltik with Return and Klink with Dig, so still half the team. Compare this to Archen's bad matchup of Elesa and Darumaka's bad matchup of Clay, and N is pretty minor.
  9. Evolves early at 16 and 32. All of the other S tiers sans Drilbur aren't evolving until about Mistralton, while you should have Stountland by Driftveil City.
  10. Doesn't rely on inaccurate moves at all save Take Down (which Retaliate fixes 5 seconds after you get Take Down) to assure KOs. Darumaka is known to whiff constantly, and Scraggy can miss HJK sometimes (though you can X Accuracy it).
This isn't discrediting the S tiers by the way. They are all fantastic. I'm just saying if not S, Stoutland should be at the top of A.

At Mistralton City now, with Sesmitoad, Conkeldurr, Stoutland and Scolipede.
 
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(base 110 Attack, equal to Snorlax)
Minor correction: Stoutland’s base Attack was 100 in Gen V, increasing to 110 from Gen VI onward. I think you said the same thing when we were agreeing about Unfezant a few days ago.

I’ll be interested to see how you find Stoutland in the late game, where previous users have said it drops off a bit in usefulness.
 
Minor correction: Stoutland’s base Attack was 100 in Gen V, increasing to 110 from Gen VI onward. I think you said the same thing when we were agreeing about Unfezant a few days ago.

I’ll be interested to see how you find Stoutland in the late game, where previous users have said it drops off a bit in usefulness.
Oops. My bad. Lategame it's gonna spam Last Resort.

In other news, my friend did the E4 in White 2 with Serperior. Yeah it couldn't sweep Marshall efficiently at all (note he essentially has the same team as BW1). I saw this in person; it could barely even kill 2 of his mons and required heavy item support, most of which went to Serperior (though he was slightly underleveled). He didn't go out of his way to overgrind or give tutor moves to Serperior. Even with Coil at like +3 Attack and Defense he still had trouble tanking hits. It also did almost nothing of note against the other members. He said it was deserving of C tier.

How is this thing supposed to sweep Marshall efficiently or heck, anything at all without REALLY going out of your way?
 
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Good news: I managed to evolve Swadloon into Leavanny by around level 25, and have made use of it through Cold Storage. It can at least comfortably take a few Rock Throws from the workers' Timburr, and is pretty fast despite mine having a Brave nature. The boost in Attack power helps make Bug Bite and Razor Leaf more tolerable. I'll see how well it handles Clay's gym soon.

Bad news: My DS won't turn on and refuses to charge, so trading Gurdurr to evolve into Conkeldurr will have to wait until I can buy a New 2DS or something. Probably not a big deal, as I want to see Leavanny and Dewott's performance in Clay's gym and Eviolite Gurdurr is ridiculously bulky.
 

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