I can’t say I agree with this at all, Seismitoed is firmly in B. To quote the criteria:
Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.
And this applies to Seismitoed perfectly. Its primarily flaw is the period from Tympole to Palpitoed, which is rather painful, but following that it fully pulls its weight. It learns Muddy Water, a 95 BP move, as soon as Level 28 as Palp - more than enough to deal with generic trainer battles. It also has access to Swift Swim and learns Rain Dance at Level 33, which is more than enough to sweep through most fights with a super-charged Muddy Water (later, Surf). In addition, it has genuinely fantastic gym match-ups starting with Elesa:
* Elesa: Though on the surface there appears to be a problem with Emolga being immune to Mud Shot, this isn’t the case at all in actuality as our little Palpy can completely wall Volt Switch, and you have access to the Eviolite to tank their hits. Zebstrika can barely scratch you, and you have Mud Shot for him.
* Clay: At this point, you most definitely have Muddy Water, making this a rather easy win. The only possible issue presented is Clay’s own Palpitoad, but even then Muddy Water can also power through that. This is made easier if you have learned Rain Dance, but this is by no means a necessity.
* Skyla: You definitely have Seismitoed at this point and you have also definitely learned Rain Dance. Seismy then proceeds to clear this gym very well with a Swift Swim set-up, and Skyla’s team is rather non-threatening on the whole.
* Brycen: The Swift Swim set-up is just as effective here as ever, as Vanillish is exceedingly easy to set up on. Both Vanillish and Beartic are unable to stand up to rain-boosted Surf, and Drain Punch at Level 44, Rock Slide from Mistralton Cave, or even just Rock Tomb deal with Cryogonal just fine.
* Drayden/Iris: This is Seismitoed’s weakest match-up by far. There’s not much to comment on here; Seismitoed is simply walled out here, though if nothing else he can use Dig reasonably effectively.
The Elite 4 match-ups are all rather samey in regards to the Swift Swim set-up. I’ll readily admit Seismitoed is weaker here than before, but is still able to sweep with item support - another condition present in B tier.
* N: This match-up is surprisingly good. Seismitoed either resists or outright walls N’s dragon depending on version, and his typing is highly favorable for this match-up. Archeops, Klinklang, and Carracosta all have weaknesses to Seismitoed in some form, and both Vanilluxe and Zoroark are swept away by rain-boosted Surf.
* Ghetsis: With Full Heal support to deal with Cofragrigus’ Toxic, Seismitoed does alright at dealing with Ghetsis, though it isn’t a fantastic match-up. Even his Hydreigon isn’t *too* problematic since Seismitoed can take a hit from Dragon Pulse, though he does struggle to 2HKO with Drain Punch/Rock Slide and Hydreign either resists or ignores Seismitoed’s STABs.
A consistent trend among these match-ups is that while Seismitoed is by no means perfect at fighting, he does do a consistently strong job of ORKOing/2RKOing, often with item support; thus, proving itself perfectly qualified for B.
Also, by the way, I’ve been using Simisage in a recent run of mine and while I haven’t completed the run yet, I do feel thus far that it belongs in C. I’ll have a post about it as soon as I’m done with that.
These points are valid for sure. But please go use the mon before saying it sweeps everything with Swift Swim. Rain is practically required to come close to OHKOing anything. For the love of Zekrom, I couldn't even OHKO Cheren's freaking Unfezant (55 base Special Defense) with Surf in rain several levels higher than it. I couldn't OHKO a Mienfoo like 10 levels lower without rain. It is seriously lacking in power
like nuts.
Also Water/Ground type aside from Elesa is pretty overrated. "But it walls Electric!" Who cares, there's only like 4 Electrics in-game, most prominently Emolga which can get Double Team going. I'd rather use a plain Water type than a mediocre one. Carracosta and Simipour are likely miles better, because the former has priority and bulk, and the latter has the speed and offenses to actually kill things.
Also E4 is awful.
Shauntal: Cofagrigus has Grass Knot, Jellicent has Energy Ball and bulk. I doubt you will actually sweep her.
Grimsley: You could probably beat him okay, but I don't think it's a clean sweep. But he's the easiest because everything but Krook kinda sucks.
Caitlin: Reunicus has Energy Ball, Gothitelle is specially bulky with Calm Mind, Sigilyph is likely faster (and can likely take a Surf in rain based on Stoutland having trouble killing them) and I doubt you will OHKO Musharna at all. Leans negative.
Marshall: Sawk and Conkeldurr both have Grass Knot, Sawk has Sturdy to get it off, and Throh wears you down (I doubt you OHKO).
How is it sweeping anyone beyond maybe Grimsley? The majority of E4 mons are bulky, and I have a feeling Bisharp would survive a rain-boosted Surf or Dig.
N-yeah, it's actually good here.
Ghetsis: Doesn't sound efficient to me. In reality I'd only think it'd be able to take on Eelektross.
How are you beating Skyla's Swanna? Rock Tomb? I have doubts there. And despite running four mons I didn't have Drain Punch in time for Brycen (I fought pretty much every trainer aside from Mistralton Cave and Route 17/18).
Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it works. It barely achieved 2HKOs, and both Tympole and Palpitoad pre-Muddy Water were less than impressive. I remember people in the old thread being disappointed with it.
This isn't just my opinion either, just look at the old thread for proof:
"Tympole is Upper Mid because he didn't shine during my use of him."
"Also, I'm curious why in the current tiering Tympole is high tier while Panpour is mid tier. I realize that the extra Ground STAB and immunity to Electric are things that can't be dismissed, but Simipour is available much earlier than Seismitoad (the only particularly worthwhile thing Panpour learns after level 22 is Crunch), it has better offensive stats, and seems to have better options for offensive coverage (Acrobatics, Blizzard, Shadow Claw).
As a Water Pokemon, I don't think many people would argue that either are as good as Oshawatt, so it seems like Tepig is the only starter where Tympole's accessibility is really an advantage.
BubbleBeam is certainly stronger than Water Gun, but Panpour has access to Work Up to compensate somewhat. Panpour should hit 22 somewhere around Route 4 (where even Water Gun is great due to all the Sandiles and Darumakas running around), which means Scald and an evolution, giving him amazing stats for a pretty long time.
I'm not arguing that Panpour be bumped up so much as Tympole should be dropped down. Panpour doesn't seem any worse than Tympole to me, so unless the sea monkey would also be high tier except for its association with Snivy, I'm not seeing Tympole's particular strengths."
"If you are patient enough, you can get Panpour in Pinwheel Forest, which shuts Tympole up forever."
"Panpour > Tympole.
Both are terrible compared to Oshawott: Tympole is redundant if you have Oshawott as a starter, you don't even get Panpour until after Lenora.
With Snivy as your starter, Panpour is essentially good as your sole water type for that portion of the game, and Tympole still doesn't come after Lenora, where Panpour is likely to already have a level advantage by that point. Panpour > Tympole.
With Tepig as your starter, Tympole just slightly wins Panpour since you don't have Oshawott(Cheren took it). However, a patient person can easily wait for a Panpour to show itself in Pinwheel(I assume a lot of people don't care about rarity with Sigilyph parking its ass there in top tier), thus Tympole's sole advantage is the gym, which Timburr/Throh/Sawk easily stomps.
Panpour > Tympole. Not to mention Scald by Route 4 as well as Darumakas and Sandiles for training = <3"
"I'm in favor of either moving Tympole down or Panpour up; I don't think anyone has stepped up to argue that Tympole is actually better than Panpour, let alone belonging an entire tier higher.
Tympole has really cruddy stats, even post-evolution. He gets 85/85 attack stats and the fact that he has to wait until level 36 to achieve that level of mediocrity is just insulting. Its movepool is also quite bad past the early stages of the game. Bubble Beam is great at level 12, but Bubble Beam and Mud Shot are your only STABs until Muddy Water at level 28. Uproar (level 23) is okay (it was buffed to 90 power in gen 5) but it's not that much better than Return, which becomes available about the same time in the game. Surf and Earthquake don't come nearly early enough to redeem him, and the fact that he can't learn Blizzard is just the final kick in the groin. The only thing that Tympole has going for it is its typing, which is admittedly one of the best in the game, but its cruddy stats and movepool prevent it from making effective use of that typing. Definitely not top tier material and I'd consider moving it down to mid.
Panpour's stats blow Seismitoad's out of the water, with a nice 98/98 attack spread. That's very respectable by end-game standards, and the fact that he has access to those stats before the third gym is absolutely fantastic. Learning a 80-power STAB at level 22 is also much better than anything Tympole can boast for most of the game.
Regarding rarity, having 10% chance of appearing in shaking grass does suck, but if you picked Snivy, it is literally just given to you, which is the best possible rarity a Pokemon can have."
"Tympole is definitely mid-tier material, and I'm tempted to say that Panpour could go up a tier. I think that Panpour (Snivy) is probably high tier material, while wild Panpour can stay in (upper) mid."
"I'm gonna go ahead and say Tympole kind of sucks, especially later in the game. I used one, and by the time I got to Mistralton it was all but useless. It doesn't even get Earthquake via level up. Almost any water type is better.
EDIT: Oh and no Waterfall is really dumb, but that doesn't matter until postgame anyway."
Good chunk of these opinions are here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/in-game-tier-list-discussion.79041/page-68
I mean, I don't think Tympole will fall below C, but with this many people saying it wasn't great I think it being C is valid (the only thing they got wrong is Panpour being available earlier save choosing Snivy, and even then, Panpour in the next area.) Remember C is above average.
Panpour/Tympole do get close in stats, but in actuality Panpour matches in Speed and HP and outright wins in everything else. And you get the evo in one area, where most people won't get Palpitoad until a bit later.
And as for Simpour vs. Sesmitoad statwise, Sesmitoad only has one point higher because its Attack wasn't buffed to 95 yet.
Heck, I can go back and test Semitoad in E4 even, thanks to save states (only really done in case my progress got lost). I'll test it and report back.
Shauntal: It 3HKOs Cofagrigus with Mystic Water Surf, and 2HKOs with rain. Either way, you can't beat this thing easily. Jellicent walls you, I think Surf is a 4HKO. You likely beat Chandelure and Golurk.
Grimsley: Drain Punch doesn't OHKO Bisharp, though you can sweep all but ironically Liepard because potential Attract hax/crits (though you can heal through this).
Marshal: You can barely beat Throh and Sawk. Conkeldurr outspeeds and beats you without rain.
Caitlin: You only beat Sigilyph here (which is a rough 2HKO potential from it with Psychic) Musharna lives a rain-boosted Surf in green.
Heck, look at most things in B tier. Most only need about a turn of setup to win battles. Sesmitoad's setup is required to actually do damage 90% of the time, and even then you will not be OHKOing off 85 base Special Attack. Most also outpace Sesmitoad in raw offensive stats too.
