Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Stellar Golurk was not full power. You did not give it EQ which is a mistake, while yes you pointed out the issues of keeping Golett in your team for an extended period time, however Rare Candies. Also DP? Use Brick Break for efficiency.
I dunno what happened with your levels, but at they are low. Gym 7 and not a single 40? Seems more like a speedrun (which it is seeing as you've beaten it in a day). I'm not doubting anything, but I still feel like you didn't test routes accurately nor used Golurk and Klank to their full effect. I don't want to be the guy known as shooting down eveyone's tests, but this one is skeptical. The EXP system should have gotten you higher than it did.
In my eyes, the way to do an accurate in game tier list is that you TAKE THE TIME to make sure the Pokemon will have everything it needs to function appropriately (within reason of course, so no level 60 moves main game), not to beat the game in record time. It gives you shoddy results and sometimes an incomplete testing result.
Stellar Golurk was not full power. You did not give it EQ which is a mistake, while yes you pointed out the issues of keeping Golett in your team for an extended period time, however Rare Candies. Also DP? Use Brick Break for efficiency.
I dunno what happened with your levels, but at they are low. Gym 7 and not a single 40? Seems more like a speedrun (which it is seeing as you've beaten it in a day). I'm not doubting anything, but I still feel like you didn't test routes accurately nor used Golurk and Klank to their full effect. I don't want to be the guy known as shooting down eveyone's tests, but this one is skeptical. The EXP system should have gotten you higher than it did.
In my eyes, the way to do an accurate in game tier list is that you TAKE THE TIME to make sure the Pokemon will have everything it needs to function appropriately (within reason of course, so no level 60 moves main game), not to beat the game in record time. It gives you shoddy results and sometimes an incomplete testing result.
I want to say I agree with these sentiments completely. Running Golurk and not giving it EQ or running Klang/Klinklang and not giving it Shift Gear is like going to Eygpt and not seeing the pyramids. You will also wanna hold off on evolving Klang as it gets Shift Gear at level 52 compared to Klinklang's level 54.
Brick Break would have done nothing in those matchups at all for me. DynamicPunch was simply there as filler and a strong Iron Fist boosted attack. It should have been obvious from my descriptions that the "you can only solo Iris with DynamicPunch luck" was a joke.
I used every Rare Candy I picked up along the way on one team member or another. It isn't like I had 20 Rare Candies sitting unused in my inventory.
For the levels my team was at (again, I remind you I fought every trainer except one optional route), it was more efficient to evolve Golurk and take advantage of its boosted attack. Earthquake would not have served any additional purpose in the final segment of the game. I can say that confidently.
There is no way for my Klang to gain an additional 10 levels even with Rare Candies without grinding on wild Pokémon incessantly. These tier lists assume you are using multiple Pokémon, so even if I did have 10 Rare Candies, no one would presume I would use all of them on a single Pokémon.
The speed at which I played the game is literally normal for most people who use these forums and has no bearing on my results. Their goal is to complete the game as efficiently and relatively quickly as possible. If you ask anyone who plays with these goals in mind, they will tell you they usually only fight the in-game trainers.
And, for the record, I played on an emulator, which allowed me to speed the game up significantly. sb879 literally watched the entire playthrough and can vouch I wasn't doing anything out of the norm.
And I stand by my point the Pokemon in question were not accurately used. I do not care what other people say how to do in game tier lists, most people have a working job and other priorities. So taking time to evaluate a pokemon effectively the way to go. I can already guess that you may have used X Accuracy on Golurk to land you DPs. You kept Magnitude which is too RNG based and Golurk was probably LESS used as a result. Nothing was stopping you from just training on Audino. Also where was Bulldoze? Did you think Magnitude would outpace its damage. Sure, if you had the luck of the gods on your side.
Klang seems to not have been used at all outside of Gym Fights and few trainers. While yes it evolves at level 49, you should have just grinded your levels. But oh no, my time. Who cares? Test the pokemon to their full power so we can have an accurate test on them. Golurk is D because you didn't have a full power one. Klang is just untiered rn because it never even reached its final form.
N
Reshiram is hellish. Crustle barely survives Fusion Flare, but doesn't even hit enough Speed after Shell Smash to be able to attack. My best bet here was to tank Fusion Flare with Crustle / Throh / Golurk and eventually KO Reshiram. Afterward, I was able to use Klang to wall N's Klang and get my team back up to speed with some Revives and Potions. After Klang goes down, N sends out Vanilluxe. Eviolite Klang walls this completely, and as long as you have enough healing at the ready, you can set up to +5/+6 with Charge Beam and +4 with Autotomize and OHKO the remainder of N's team. Nothing else was particularly noteworthy here.
Will you please stop presuming things about the way I play? I never once used an X Accuracy. I redid each of the Gym Leader fights multiple times (10+) to test each Pokémon's range (miniumum and maximum) of effectiveness. I did this because I wanted my posts to be as thorough and accurate as possible. I said in one of my posts that I reset the DynamicPunch fight 30 times in order to see if there was a way for Golurk to solo the fight.
Magnitude has a 65% chance of having between 70 and 150 power. On average, it is significantly stronger than Bulldoze (71 base power, to be exact).
I did not fucking speed run the game. I fought every trainer except for one optional route that requires backtracking and a significant time investment. The point of these runs is efficiency, which, yes, for all intents and purposes means speed. These tier lists are meant for people to use to complete the games as quickly and efficiently as possible. They do not account for your day job or whatever.
DrumstickGaming, good job on alienating potential contributors to this thread by calling me out when I've been the most thorough of anyone who has posted so far. My Pokémon were used to their peak effectiveness given their levels, which as I've said ten times, yet somehow you keep ignoring, were gained from fighting every single trainer on the game's most effective completion-route.
Efficiency is about completing the game with minimal effort. It's not necessarily about in game or real world time. Fighting unnecessary trainers or wild Pokemon is extra effort. Going out of the way for items or backtracking to catch a Pokemon is effort. Using a Pokemon in a subpar way is effort, but delaying a Pokemon's evolution for a move is not necessarily more effort than evolving it right away and vice versa - this is where you get trade offs.
For example, would it be extra effort to delay evolution of Pupitar to level 56 in Gen 3 so it learns Earthquake 5 levels early? Yes. Is it worthwhile considering that it improves Tyranitar's performance to have an early Earthquake? Almost certainly, so that's the better way to play and should be what's considered here. However, would it be worthwhile to delay Pansear's evolution until level 34 so it learns Fire Blast instead of the much weaker Flame Burst? Almost certainly not.
Something similar is true for grinding. In Gen 5, where the exp curve is actively working against you, I would be shocked beyond words to see a full team of 3-4 above 50 for endgame. Hell, I'd be surprised to see even one thing at 55 by the time you fight N. To me that indicates heavy grinding, which is extra effort and should not necessarily be rewarded with a higher ranking than something that performs slightly worse but requires minimal to no grinding.
Time is effort. Grinding is effort. Using a Pokemon in a less than optimal way is effort. Efficiency is about seeing maximum returns for minimum effort, and that's the standard everything should be rated on in my opinion.
Well that's bull on many levels. He did not try to alienate anyone but it got to the point of it due to the skepticism of your post. Drumsticks wants an accurate assessment for the Pokemon that have moves that could potentially raise their tiers. I'm not saying that the Pokemon will rise or fall, and your tier placements may be perfectly fine. But that should not dissuade you from getting them one of the best moves in the game or not evolving them fully.
You can get defensive all you want but you are not the only tester on this forum and Drumsticks has done more such as starting the thread, testing Pokemon himself while doing through evaluations himself. You are not special in the regard that you beat in a day nor the fact you did a through analysis, as this analysis is already expected of the testers.
You also DID speed run and I quote, "And, for the record, I played on an emulator, which allowed me to speed the game up significantly." So you used Speed up Toggle. That is a method of speed run despite a loose one.
For the X Accuracy claim, it isn't my fault I jumped to conclusions. The move in question is 50 accurate and that's efficient? You also stated that you reset 30+ times. Once again, this is efficient? You claim speed is the most efficient way to test, but is this not the exact opposite?
You've taken the skepticism on a personal level and that's unfortunate as it was criticism. I do no assume on how people play. I already knew you played on emulator from the go. Having two posts in under four hours.
I am sorry that you felt attacked by me (if that's how you viewed it), but the test was incomplete on at least 1 which was Klang.
Efficiency is about completing the game with minimal effort. It's not necessarily about in game or real world time. Fighting unnecessary trainers or wild Pokemon is extra effort. Going out of the way for items or backtracking to catch a Pokemon is effort. Using a Pokemon in a subpar way is effort, but delaying a Pokemon's evolution for a move is not necessarily more effort than evolving it right away and vice versa - this is where you get trade offs.
For example, would it be extra effort to delay evolution of Pupitar to level 56 in Gen 3 so it learns Earthquake 5 levels early? Yes. Is it worthwhile considering that it improves Tyranitar's performance to have an early Earthquake? Almost certainly, so that's the better way to play and should be what's considered here. However, would it be worthwhile to delay Pansear's evolution until level 34 so it learns Fire Blast instead of the much weaker Flame Burst? Almost certainly not.
Something similar is true for grinding. In Gen 5, where the exp curve is actively working against you, I would be shocked beyond words to see a full team of 3-4 above 50 for endgame. Hell, I'd be surprised to see even one thing at 55 by the time you fight N. To me that indicates heavy grinding, which is extra effort and should not necessarily be rewarded with a higher ranking than something that performs slightly worse but requires minimal to no grinding.
Time is effort. Grinding is effort. Using a Pokemon in a less than optimal way is effort. Efficiency is about seeing maximum returns for minimum effort, and that's the standard everything should be rated on in my opinion.
I am in agreement with you. The major issue we got into primarily was that his Golurk did not have EQ. You gave the point that Pupitar to stay off evolution to get it by 6 levels. However, Golett has to stay off a mere 2. He did not take the time to get this and that's where my issue came in. As for his Klang it was pretty close to evolving as it was.
Pansear is already being evolved once I reach Castelia. No doubt. Fire Blast TM is in Iccirus City so I'm not missing much.
Each tester is different this much I know. I for one do not care for the extra effort as long as the effort puts in comes back to me. As such, I have already stated in my first update that all Pokemon I test will be treated neutrally with no bias involved for the most accurate placement. Stellar did not have any bias in his posts, but the test for Golurk could have been a tad more accurate with the aid of EQ.
Will you please stop presuming things about the way I play? I never once used an X Accuracy. I redid each of the Gym Leader fights multiple times (10+) to test each Pokémon's range (miniumum and maximum) of effectiveness. I did this because I wanted my posts to be as thorough and accurate as possible.I said in one of my posts that I reset the DynamicPunch fight 30 times in order to see if there was a way for Golurk to solo the fight.
Magnitude has a 65% chance of having between 70 and 150 power. On average, it is significantly stronger than Bulldoze (71 base power, to be exact).
I did not fucking speed run the game. I fought every trainer except for one optional route that requires backtracking and a significant time investment. The point of these runs is efficiency, which, yes, for all intents and purposes means speed. These tier lists are meant for people to use to complete the games as quickly and efficiently as possible. They do not account for your day job or whatever.
DrumstickGaming, good job on alienating potential contributors to this thread by calling me out when I've been the most thorough of anyone who has posted so far. My Pokémon were used to their peak effectiveness given their levels, which as I've said ten times, yet somehow you keep ignoring, were gained from fighting every single trainer on the game's most effective completion-route.
You do know speed up toggle speeds up in game time right? Unless you testing was over the course of days, you should probably have led with that. As it stood you uploaded 4 updates in 6 hours.
MOD EDIT: Please don't double post or triple post - CRoll
This is a valid criticism in my eyes, however it's certainly not something that merits complete disregard of his experiences, just something to keep in mind for future tests. What he has shows how Golurk performs without Earthquake. A test delaying evolution for Earthquake can show whether or not the delay is worth the cost of immediate power on evolution.
Yes, I do know it speeds up the game time. That was the point I was trying to make...
It speeds the game time up in proportion to your actual movement in the game.
With minimal discrepancies, your in-game time at the end of the game with speed up will be equal to your in-game time without speed up.
I was not disregarding his experiences other than my statement that a thorough analysis is expected of every tester. This was originally not meant to be hostile but to inquire if he had truly done everything he could have to have more accurate tests on Pokemon. Stellar got very defensive on his first couple of post as I continued to inquire.
I will test the delay to see if the effort returned is greater than one without delaying. I am now putting this argument behind me. It had originally not started out this way either.
Quoting Its_A_Random from the old X and Y in-game tier list.
"Magnitude is one of the shittiest moves in the entire game, & being forced to put up with either it (or more likely Bulldoze) until Level 45 (or 50 if you could not handle Golett for another two levels) is ridiculously annoying. Simply put the inconsistency was something shocking. One minute you get a Magnitude 8 & get your opponent down to a low health, only to roll Magnitude 4 the next & then die."
I agree with this. If you use Magnitude you're doing it wrong.
theres no wrong way to play through a game. stop being stubborn. its like saying rating kadabra differently in rby because you dont have a link cable. you are being insanely dumb
Quoting another person's opinion that is no more valid than mine does nothing to help your argument. If anything, it weakens it, because you are basing your opinion on hearsay rather than your own experiences, the exact opposite of what you are attempting to encourage others to do in this thread.
And finally, for the record, I have absolutely zero issues with the criticism of Golurk. It is entirely possible EQ is more efficient over the course of multiple tests. I said I found Magnitude more efficient for my particular run through because of my team's levels and the relative amount of game remaining.
My main qualm with this whole ordeal is Turdterra's nonsensical speedrunning / speed toggle claim and DrumstickGaming's subsequent post saying all my effort is to be ignored because I "speedran," when that is most definitely not the case. I stated multiple times throughout my posts that I defeated every trainer on the main path through the game. I played the way tier lists are intended to be used.
theres no wrong way to play through a game. stop being stubborn. its like saying rating kadabra differently in rby because you dont have a link cable. you are being insanely dumb
So aimed at me? You sure a Moderator should be attacking others? I'm sorry that I wanted to inquire why levels were low and why certain Pokemon were not used at their full potential.
Quoting another person's opinion that is no more valid than mine does nothing to help your argument. If anything, it weakens it, because you are basing your opinion on hearsay rather than your own experiences, the exact opposite of what you are attempting to encourage others to do in this thread.
And finally, for the record, I have absolutely zero issues with the criticism of Golurk. It is entirely possible EQ is more efficient over the course of multiple tests. I said I found Magnitude more efficient for my particular run through because of my team's levels and the relative amount of game remaining.
My main qualm with this whole ordeal is Turdterra's nonsensical speedrunning / speed toggle claim and DrumstickGaming's subsequent post saying all my effort is to be ignored because I "speedran," when that is most definitely not the case. I stated multiple times throughout my posts that I defeated every trainer on the main path through the game.
As for your accusations, maybe do not post updates in a day in particular that same day you started? Just a thought. When you play on an Emulator there is the potential of you being pointed out on the Speed Up Toggle. Yes you have stated that you defeated everyone. I felt like there was more that could be done, but apparently not. Your effort will also not be ignored but taken into account and used. Did Drumsticks ask you to straight up retest? I had even told Drumsticks to maybe change the clauses of what he posted after he did shortly after. He has not done so yet.
I will add that I am a fresh face to the testing community but that should disregard the other side. As it so appears that has happened here. Yes, it may appear that I am stubborn according to RODAN. Am I being dumb? I don't think so? As I stated, every tester is different. I test the way I want and Stellar tests the way he wants. I inquired and apologize for my skepticism, but how can I not be? The levels were low and that seemed out of place for me.
Regardless, I am dropping this speed run claim. Stellar tested them. That's what matters in the end. Golurk was tested without EQ. I will be testing with. He tested Klank. I can already see the placement for Klinklnag being relatively low, but someone still needs to test it. Which I will do.
Overall, this is saddening me. From now on, there will be a hard and fast rule added to the OP, which I expect all users to follow if they want to tier Pokemon:
When tiering Pokemon, fight every trainer you see. Do not speedrun the game, and make sure the Pokemon reaches its final evolution with the most optimal moves to tier it effectively. Otherwise, your posts will be ignored.
By this logic, you have to grind and evolve your Zweilous at level 64 if you don't want your test on Deino to not be ignored. And then you can say: 'oh boy, this Hydreigon of mine swept the elite four on its own! It might come late, but its strength in the late game makes up for it, similar to Durant. Deino should rise.'
That is dumb of course. If it is unreasonable to evolve a pokemon before, say, the E4, I think that that should just be considered a reason to put a pokemon lower on the tier list. The pokemon this is relevant for are Deino, Vullaby, Rufflet, Pawniard, Larvesta, Mienfoo, Vannilish and Axew (the latter three are definitely possible to get right before the E4, but it might require some extra grinding/rare candies).
In the specific case of Kling and wether grinding for shift gear is optimal or not, I'm with Stellar on this one. I think grinding Klang to evolve at level 49 is already hard enough, though doable, but waiting for shift gear at level 52 is really stretching it in my opinion. Keep in mind that pokemon like pawniard and the late-game birds are in E tier precisely because leveling them to level 52 is unreasonable and not worth the effort. Even when you do get shift gear, Klingklang cannot reliably set up on any of the elite four leads anyway, so that extra effort to play 'optimally' might just be time wasted.
What if 'the most optimal moves' are tm's that require a detour (thunderbolt, rock slide). Do you have to 'take the time' to do those detours? Probably, but it's definitely not effecient.
I have done two runs in the last week, and in both runs my team ended up at level 46-48 right before the E4, battling all random trainers and some random audino's I encountered. I'm doing a third run right now. I'm at Icirrus city and I too have not a single pokemon of level 40 yet, so Stellar seemed to be quite on level at that point of the game. For the record, Brycens ace is level 39. I do agree that his levels before the E4 were a bit low though, especially Klang and Throh, so his opinions on the E4 matchups might need to be retested. I think everything before that should definitely not be disregarded.
By this logic, you have to grind and evolve your Zweilous at level 64 if you don't want your test on Deino to not be ignored. And then you can say: 'oh boy, this Hydreigon of mine swept the elite four on its own! It might come late, but its strength in the late game makes up for it, similar to Durant. Deino should rise.'
That is dumb of course. If it is unreasonable to evolve a pokemon before, say, the E4, I think that that should just be considered a reason to put a pokemon lower on the tier list. The pokemon this is relevant for are Deino, Vullaby, Rufflet, Pawniard, Larvesta and arguably Mienfoo and axew (the latter two are definitely possible to get right before the E4, but it might require some extra grinding/rare candies).
In the specific case of Kling and wether grinding for shift gear is optimal or not, I'm with Stellar on this one. I think grinding Klang to evolve at level 49 is already hard enough, though doable, but waiting for shift gear at level 52 is really stretching it in my opinion. Keep in mind that pokemon like pawniard and the late-game birds are in E tier precisely because leveling them to level 52 is unreasonable and not worth the effort. Even when you do get shift gear, Klingklang cannot reliably set up on any of the elite four leads anyway, so that extra effort to play 'optimally' might just be time wasted.
What if 'the most optimal moves' are tm's that require a detour (thunderbolt, rock slide). Do you have to 'take the time' to do those detours? Probably, but it's definitely not effecient.
I have done two runs in the last week, and in both runs my team ended up at level 46-48 right before the E4, battling all random trainers and some random audino's I encountered. I'm doing a third run right now. I'm at Icirrus city and I too have not a single pokemon of level 40 yet, so Stellar seemed to be quite on level at that point of the game. For the record, Brycens ace is level 39. I do agree that his levels before the E4 were a bit low though, especially Klang and Throh, so his opinions on the E4 matchups might need to be retested. I think everything before that should definitely not be disregarded.
Not true, actually. Klingklang can set up on Cofagrigus with Substitute, and Klingklang resists all of its moves. Same for Ghetsis.
As for the final evolution thing, that's null and void for most things in E tier. You are not going to get a Hydreigon in an efficient playthrough, nor will you be getting Volcarona. I know this is backpedaling, but it was a knee-jerk reaction and I regret posting it. I deleted it for a reason.
I'm sorry for fueling this argument; can we please change the subject for now? Discussion Slate: Karrablast (trade evolution), Deerling, Solosis
Stellar Why are your levels so low? You should be able to get Klinklang before the League. I will be retesting the Klink Line to see if I can reach Klinkland and Shift Gear. The ranking is fine, but I think a retest is order to make sure it's full potential is used.
Stellar had levels which are well within target for the Elite 4. 42-45 is perfectly fine going into the E4. Klang and Vanillish basically won't evolve in any play through unless you have 3 or less mons (and maybe not even then due to the XP mechanics). Most of these runs test with 4-5 mons. Having 6 level 50's requires a huge amount of extra training and effort to get (it is possible with Audino, but not necessarily massively efficient).
I want to say I agree with these sentiments completely. Running Golurk and not giving it EQ or running Klang/Klinklang and not giving it Shift Gear is like going to Eygpt and not seeing the pyramids. You will also wanna hold off on evolving Klang as it gets Shift Gear at level 52 compared to Klinklang's level 54.
Sorry but this is entirely bollocks. Hydreigon tops out at 54. The chances of a normal player getting that high is simply ridiculous. Anything over 47 is questionably high realistically unless you abuse Audino continuously. I can see 49 by the end of the Ghetsis fight for an "Ace". But its unlikely for anyone else.
The speed at which I played the game is literally normal for most people who use these forums and has no bearing on my results. Their goal is to complete the game as efficiently and relatively quickly as possible. If you ask anyone who plays with these goals in mind, they will tell you they usually only fight the in-game trainers.
And, for the record, I played on an emulator, which allowed me to speed the game up significantly. sb879 literally watched the entire playthrough and can vouch I wasn't doing anything out of the norm.
This is a pretty normal thing to do for these runs. Using Emulators and speed boosting through sections happens all the time. IAR played manually in just over 9 hours so its not hard to complete the game that quickly if you want too.
And I stand by my point the Pokemon in question were not accurately used. I do not care what other people say how to do in game tier lists, most people have a working job and other priorities. So taking time to evaluate a pokemon effectively the way to go. I can already guess that you may have used X Accuracy on Golurk to land you DPs. You kept Magnitude which is too RNG based and Golurk was probably LESS used as a result. Nothing was stopping you from just training on Audino. Also where was Bulldoze? Did you think Magnitude would outpace its damage. Sure, if you had the luck of the gods on your side.
Klang seems to not have been used at all outside of Gym Fights and few trainers. While yes it evolves at level 49, you should have just grinded your levels. But oh no, my time. Who cares? Test the pokemon to their full power so we can have an accurate test on them. Golurk is D because you didn't have a full power one. Klang is just untiered rn because it never even reached its final form.
This is a really bizarre view. Yes, Golett can be "held on too", but honestly, evolving it right away is probably slightly more effective because of the huge bonuses the evolution grants. I can kinda get the issue with lacking Bulldoze, but that's the only fault I can see with Stellar's play through. Honestly, all this is showing to me is that your testing is faulty, because you are going to be massively inflated in terms of levels. Which means everything will feel "better" to you because you match/outlevel every trainer you come up against.
Just so everyone is clear here: Let's try not to insult/question other peoples runs unless there is something insane about any of them. Phrasing the question "Why didn't you wait for two levels to get EQ?" is far "nicer" and conversational than accusing someone of doing something wrong for the playthrough.
Either way, let's move past this and continue as we were before. Also: Stellar absolutely knows his shit. You might want to look back and see what other stuff he has done for Smogon before trying to actually argue with him.
Having just done a BW run not too long ago, I think I can give my six cents on the team I used:
Oshawott: Yeah, A sounds about right. I started with an Adamant nature, so I was afraid this was going to get messy, but Water Gun still did what I needed it to do, and Razor Shell very early on was perfect. Solid bulk, great offensive options even with being Adamant with Revenge and Megahorn ontop of Razor Shell, it was always pulling its weight and more.
Venipede: Surprisingly, I feel this to be a C tier mon. Venipede was hitting jack all, but once it got the eviolite, it refused to die. If things got hairy, I could just send out eviolite Whirlpede to take a hit or two while I healed up whoever was dying, and when it became Scolipede and got Megahorn around the flying gym, it really picked up the slack against Brycen and Drayden, and had a field day against two of the elite 4. Not a perfect pokemon, but one that pleasantly surprised me.
Woobat: And then there's this thing. I had a Relaxed nature, but it was still outspeeding most things... and it also kept dying fast. Granted, mine evolved around Burgh, but Burgh was the only point it could properly contribute. Everything else beat the poor bat up, and in the end, I had to drop it for Reshiram just to have enough firepower to deal with Ghetsis. D tier
Purrloin: This was painful to use, VERY freaking painful to use until it got Return. Hasty only meant it died even faster, but at the end game, it actually started to hold its own with a moveset of Night Slash/Return/ Grass Knot/Thunder Wave. It helped lock down troublesome mons for someone else to handle, and was key to capturing the Legendary Beasts. Did very well against Shauntal and Caitlyn (bar Reuni living a Night Slash and returning fire with Focus Blast). D tier, but with how horrible it is early on, I can see E existing.
Pansage: Fuck the monkey. No, seriously, fuck this monkey. I got a brave one in Pinwheel Forest, and it still sucked horribly. Seed Bomb was mandatory to even entertain killing something, Acrobatics would just barely do enough damage, and it would get melted alive by almost everything, especially in the end game. Its ONE good matchup is against Clay... and that's really only against the non Excadrill members. I found this more painful to use than Woobat or Purrloin. E tier
Quoting Its_A_Random from the old X and Y in-game tier list.
"Magnitude is one of the shittiest moves in the entire game, & being forced to put up with either it (or more likely Bulldoze) until Level 45 (or 50 if you could not handle Golett for another two levels) is ridiculously annoying. Simply put the inconsistency was something shocking. One minute you get a Magnitude 8 & get your opponent down to a low health, only to roll Magnitude 4 the next & then die."
I agree with this. If you use Magnitude you're doing it wrong.
Hate to beat a dead horse at this point, but this isn't exactly an apple:apple comparison. This is because, in XY, you have higher levels overall due to the way the levels are scaled, and access to the buffed Exp. Share (which means you don't really have to sit through the extra Golett levels), which makes waiting the extra levels for early Earthquake more worth it. Whether or not it is worth it in BW? I don't have a horse in that race, but I do want to point this out.
Anyway, I'm actually using Deerling and Karrablast right now, so I may as well give an update on those and the rest of my team.
Clay
- Dewott: it OHKO's Krokorok with razor shell. Excadrill takes two razor shells, but it set up hone claws on turn one so it only got one bulldoze off on Dewott, which it survived. Palpitoad can't do anything to Dewott. Grass knot makes the fight faster, but it's not even really needed. Solo without too much effort
- Musharna: it is very mediocre in this gym. Krokorok completely walls it because Musharna still doesn't have any coverage outside of psybeam and... gyro ball. Musharna can yawn on Excadrill and do some damage with psybeam, but this is far from reliable. It does beat Palpitoad, but what doesn't. Bad matchup.
- Deerling: eviolite deerling actually soloed this, just barely. Jump kick comes really close to OHKO'ing Krokorok. After a swagger boost, it does OHKO. It also comes really close to OHKO'ing Excadrill after a swagger boost. Excadrill wasted his time on hone claws again and died in two hits while only getting one rock slide off. Palpitoad doesn't really pose a threat, but you might need to heal after taking a +1 rock slide. Overall, pretty good matchup, but you do rely on not getting hit by confusion or rock slide flinches, so Deerling is not the most reliable.
- Karrablast: it can beat up Krokorok with bug buzz, but other than that it is useless. Just FYI, I'm using the pokemon randomizer on an emulator to evolve Karrablast. It evolves when it levels up while having shelmet in the party, which means that I can't test Escaveliers performance until Icirrus city. Just thougth I should mention that.
Skyla
- Samurott: it soloed this by just spamming razor shell. Nothing on Skyla's team can really threaten it. Easy matchup.
- Musharna: it sets up yawn on Swoobat to give itself more time to power up using charge beam. After a couple of boosts, Musharna sweeps the gym. Again, nothing can threaten Musharna very much, so easy matchup.
Sawsbuck: It can 2-HKO any of Skyla's pokemon with return, but it only takes one flying move in return. So if Skyla plays perfectly, Sawsbuck only beats one of her pokemon, but if she makes her pokemon waste time by using amnesia/razor wind/aqua ring (which is pretty likely), Sawsbuck can beat two or even all of her pokemon. Iffy matchup, but not that bad overall.
- Karrablast: it was pretty bad. If you get swarm on your Karrablast, you might be able to beat Swoobat with x-scissor, but mine has shed skin so I can't be certain about this. Escavelier would certainly do much better, but I can't be certain about the specifics either.
- Litwick: It can deal good damage to both Swoobat and Unfezant, but it is too slow and frail to actually beat them. Swanna beats Litwick up bad. Pretty bad matchup, but again, if Skyla's pokemon waste turns you can make something work here.
Brycen
- Samurott: another solo. It doesn't really need item support either, unless you get some really bad luck on swagger. Just spam surf or revenge until everything is dead and pray you don't hit yourself in confusion. Pretty easy matchup.
- Musharna: It can solo the gym with some luck on charge beam boosts. Musharna is extremely slow, which makes it susceptible to getting flinched or swaggered. It's not a bad matchup, but you might need healing items depending on your luck, which is annoying.
- Sawsbuck: another matchup that is annoying because you have to rely on not hitting yourself in confusion. It beats Cryogonal and Vannillish with one jump kick, but Beartic takes two and swaggers you. If you hit yourself, you die to icicle crash, and if you don't hit yourself, you sweep. It's a good matchup 50% of the time basically.
- Escavelier: nothing on Brycens team can touch Escavelier so it can just stomp through the gym with iron head. Easy matchup.
- Litwick: it OHKO's Vannillish with fire blast. Mine got a lucky crit on Beartic, OHKO'ing it, so I don't know how reliable Litwick is against it. Cryognal took two fire blasts before going down, but it couldn't do much damage back. Overall, it's a pretty good matchup but I'm sure Beartic would try to be annoying with swagger if I didn't get that crit.
Samurott is doing fine. Musharna's psybeam keeps up decently well, still 2-HKO'ing most things at worst. Lack of coverage is really bad though, because even with charge beam the common Sandile line forces it out every time. Sawsbuck is basically a more reliable Minccino. It has a great movepool and decent stats, but I find that its power is often barely not enough to OHKO things, which means that it has to take a hit more often than it would like. Horn leech definitely helps though. Escavelier has some sexy stats, especially a monstrous attack stat. I expect it to do very well against Drayden and the elite four. Litwick is getting along decently, though I think the fact that I got one with perfect special attack IV's on my first try definitely helps. It's not as hard to train as I anticipated, but it's definitely not great either. It will evolve soon, which boosts it speed. This should make it more useful against random route trainers. Overall, the team is doing pretty well.
Re: Vanillite. From what I remember from previous runs, it is not necessarily bad. As soon as it evolves, it gets Ice Beam, which is pretty neat. The time as Vanillite is pretty tough, though. It lacks the bulk and power to not require massive support. Also, it is hard to get a Vanilluxe at reasonable level without running a 3-Mon team or Audino grind.
Regarding matchups:
-Skyla: If you get Vanillish, then great, it stomps the gym. Otherwise, not really great due to aforementioned flaws.
-Brycen: Can get around with Steel coverage, but idr if Beartic had Fighting coverage. If no, the matchup is positive.
-Drayden: This is where it's utility comes in. It's by far the best option to hit Drayden super effectively. I remember my Ice Beam OHKOed Fraxure and did good chunk to Druddigon, struggled a bit against Haxorus.
E4 is pretty rough cause it doesn't hit anything super effectively, other than Golurk, Sigi and Krook. Rest is either bulky or hits Vani super effectively.
N and Ghetsis aren't in favor either. Reshiram bops it, and pmuch everything on his team bops, bar probs Vanlliuxe itself; Archeops outspeeds, Carracosta won't die any soon, Zoroark has Fblast, Klinklang is Steel.
Ghetsis' Hydreigon bops it with Blast, cannot hit Bisharp, Eelektross has thrower. Rest is based on raw power, in which Vani is going to lose.
Thus, I think it's fine at C. It is useful, but has too many flaws and comes late.
Re: Vanillite. From what I remember from previous runs, it is not necessarily bad. As soon as it evolves, it gets Ice Beam, which is pretty neat. The time as Vanillite is pretty tough, though. It lacks the bulk and power to not require massive support. Also, it is hard to get a Vanilluxe at reasonable level without running a 3-Mon team or Audino grind.
Regarding matchups:
-Skyla: If you get Vanillish, then great, it stomps the gym. Otherwise, not really great due to aforementioned flaws.
-Brycen: Can get around with Steel coverage, but idr if Beartic had Fighting coverage. If no, the matchup is positive.
-Drayden: This is where it's utility comes in. It's by far the best option to hit Drayden super effectively. I remember my Ice Beam OHKOed Fraxure and did good chunk to Druddigon, struggled a bit against Haxorus.
E4 is pretty rough cause it doesn't hit anything super effectively, other than Golurk, Sigi and Krook. Rest is either bulky or hits Vani super effectively.
N and Ghetsis aren't in favor either. Reshiram bops it, and pmuch everything on his team bops, bar probs Vanlliuxe itself; Archeops outspeeds, Carracosta won't die any soon, Zoroark has Fblast, Klinklang is Steel.
Ghetsis' Hydreigon bops it with Blast, cannot hit Bisharp, Eelektross has thrower. Rest is based on raw power, in which Vani is going to lose.
Thus, I think it's fine at C. It is useful, but has too many flaws and comes late.
Beartic has Rock Slide. Even with the bulky mons Ice Beam off 110 Special Attack isn't hitting soft (serve). Also Mirror Coat exists, and Vanilluxe has decent enough bulk (71/85/95) to make use of it. 79 Speed also outspeeds most things, and it blows the other Ice types out of the water. Pre-Gym 5 isn't late, late is Axew & co. It also has a 30% encounter rate, when the other Ice types (notable comparison-wise because you can't really have non-STAB Ice attacks in maingame) have abysmal encounter rates usually 10% or less if not in winter.
That said, I can see why it is C tier. Limited moves and late final evolution doesn't help it, though you should have Vanilluxe by the E4. You could maybe make a case for B though, seeing as Ice Beam at 35, even off Vanillish's 80 Sp. Atk, will sting. It can probably smack Caitlin's mons fairly hard, or at least set up a Light Screen (which it has the movepool slots to do). I will be using it for myself if I do another run, so we'll have to see.
Beartic has Rock Slide. Even with the bulky mons Ice Beam off 110 Special Attack isn't hitting soft (serve). Also Mirror Coat exists, and Vanilluxe has decent enough bulk (71/85/95) to make use of it. 79 Speed also outspeeds most things, and it blows the other Ice types out of the water. Pre-Gym 5 isn't late, late is Axew & co.
Lack of bulk was referring more to Vanillite, which is mainly what makes me think it's fine at C (the fact it is really weak as Vanillite). Also, I think that it struggles greatly against physical threats (since you did remind me of MCoat), because ultimately its typing defensively sucks and its bulk as luxe isn't relatively high (not low, but I'd say average)
