I've already had to delete 10 posts from your mods RMT, so your forum should have to suffer in moderation hell too. Bitch Ass
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
Azumarill is seeing an OU-amount of usage right now, the main reason being the rise of Rain. Said archetype rising has in general brought a bit of diversity with it, paired with a lot of experimentation. With Pelipper, Mega Swampert, Ash-Gren/Kingdra, Torn-T and steel-types taking up the first five slots, the last slot usually goes to a wallbreaker. This slot in particular is a subject of constant shifting in Rain. In the past, we’ve seen things ranging from Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko to even Quilfish. Z-Manaphy has been and continues to be a common sight. And now, Azumarill is seeing an uptick in usage with it’s Z-Belly Drum Set.
Azumarill offers a few unique things to rain. First of all, probably one of the most valuable niches for Rain to have, it abuses Ash-Gren, which would otherwise be a nightmare to deal with. Another important plus for Azumarill is the ease with which it breaks down most of Rain’s premier checks in Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Fini, Spd Bulu and Gastrodon. It is also a mon that doesn’t necessarily need rain in order to properly function and lastly, it proves to be a deadly late game sweeper that only needs minimal chip in order to sweep teams in Rain (OHKOing even something as bulky as Mega Scizor in Rain with Aqua Jet). Thus, I feel Azumarill should rise for its ‘newfound’ niche in Rain.
Alright boys, time for a controversial one. I've been thinking about this one for a couple of months now, but its only since I started properly playing again that I've been able to put my thoughts down for a nom.
Heatran S >>> A+
In my opinion, Heatran, while still a top 5 mon in the metagame, just isn't quite at the level of its S rank counterparts.
The meta is very well prepped for it overall. Pokemon that beat/check it are also more popular than they ever have been, Garchomp in particular has risen in usage by over 4% over the last 6 months at 1500+ elo). I feel that this had been reflected in its usage stats, as it has dropped 4% itself over the same period of time. Chomper is far from the only pokemon seeing increading popularity which works well against tran. Its fellow S-Tiers Ash-Gren, Lando-T and Mage (carrying Focus Miss) all beat/check it; knock off users, in particular torn-t cripple the sp def set and the magma storm lefties set, rotom and fini beat all variants minus bloom doom, and strong fighting types and coverage are everywhere cham, lop etc. Let's not forget everybody's favorite archetype rain, which is about 1 in 20 ladder games atm.
While at its best it is an absolute menace to face, I feel the meta just doesn't favour it as much as it used to. I also feel people are forgoing what in my opinion is its best set, Steelium and Firium over other options because of the meta matchups rn. Going into battles, I just don't fear Heatran, the same way I do for the other S-tier threats of this gen. To reiterate, I still believe it is still a top 5 mon, I don't mean to put it down, I still feel it is up there. But is it of the same caliber as Ash-Gren? Lando-T? Mage? I feel that is at the very least, debatable.
I mainly want to see discussion regarding this idea, I feel that there is a lot that I am missing both positive and negative in this nomination.
In my opinion, Heatran, while still a top 5 mon in the metagame, just isn't quite at the level of its S rank counterparts.
The meta is very well prepped for it overall. Pokemon that beat/check it are also more popular than they ever have been, Garchomp in particular has risen in usage by over 4% over the last 6 months at 1500+ elo). I feel that this had been reflected in its usage stats, as it has dropped 4% itself over the same period of time. Chomper is far from the only pokemon seeing increading popularity which works well against tran. Its fellow S-Tiers Ash-Gren, Lando-T and Mage (carrying Focus Miss) all beat/check it; knock off users, in particular torn-t cripple the sp def set and the magma storm lefties set, rotom and fini beat all variants minus bloom doom, and strong fighting types and coverage are everywhere cham, lop etc. Let's not forget everybody's favorite archetype rain, which is about 1 in 20 ladder games atm.
While at its best it is an absolute menace to face, I feel the meta just doesn't favour it as much as it used to. I also feel people are forgoing what in my opinion is its best set, Steelium and Firium over other options because of the meta matchups rn. Going into battles, I just don't fear Heatran, the same way I do for the other S-tier threats of this gen. To reiterate, I still believe it is still a top 5 mon, I don't mean to put it down, I still feel it is up there. But is it of the same caliber as Ash-Gren? Lando-T? Mage? I feel that is at the very least, debatable.
I mainly want to see discussion regarding this idea, I feel that there is a lot that I am missing both positive and negative in this nomination.
I was just thinking about this a couple of days ago too and I agree that it should be in A+.
I would like to add to your reasoning that Tapu Bulu, which Heatran greatly appreciates as both a partner and as matchup, seems to have been falling off lately (mostly due to Magearna and Kartana I suppose), hurting Heatran's viability somewhat.
Additionally, Magearna, Garchomp, Kartana and Excadrill are as common as ever and all of them like using Z-moves, which often makes it hard to feature Heatran's best set, namely Firium or Steelium Z, on a team due to fierce competition for the Z-move. Without its Z it has no place in S in my opinion.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
The rise of other Heatran checks (in this context) can be mostly attributed to Zygarde's ban, imo. In other words, Garchomp and co. are replacements rather than new answers. Maybe it's just me, but Heatran does indeed feel comparable to the other S-rank mons. I get why you didn't elaborate for the sake of having a concise OP, but I don't think that point is clear-cut enough to just take at face value rn. Same with your list of poor Heatran matchups. For example, I'm having trouble accepting that the popularity of Magearna is a bad thing for tran.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion on Heatran, but I don't think your arguments for dropping it are sufficiently compelling.
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Mostly agreed friend. The loss of Zygarde evidently led to the rise of its outclassed dragon/ground friend Chomper. Chomper is an easy one to highlight, and I would agree is a replacement. But in acting as a replacement for Zygarde, various effects ripple through the metagame due to their inherent differences. These include pokemon utilised in the meta taking this change into account, which I believe negatively affect Heatran. I may have worded it poorly, but my argument is that Heatran is doing worse since the Zygarde ban. This in my opinion is supported by a 4% drop in Heatran's usage from its peak prior to the ban. 4% is nothing to smirk at, that's a considerably large drop when taking into account a premier ground type threat being removed from the tier, something Heatran struggled to deal with.
I argue that the meta since Zygarde has been banned has not worked in Heatran's favor. The aforementioned Rotom-W in particular is not great for Tran, neither is Fini or the other bulky water types showing up. I also cannot stress how bad it is that Heatran can be dead-weight against a popular team archetype like rain. Furthermore, Zygarde via its unique feature of Thousand Arrows, promoted grass types to their peak of usage, mons that all forms of Heatran ate for breakfast. Not only did Heatran destroy these mons, but it also appreciated them on its team for type synergy and support. As Ruft points out specifically for Bulu, but I feel also applies to a lesser extent to Tangrowth, for similar reasons...
I checked the usage stats (as they are a large basis of my argument), and he was right, Bulu has dropped 4% like Tran, while Tang has dropped 3%. His point on Z-users and Z-less Heatran is also kind of better than any single part of my argument, so shoutouts to you Ruft. Moving on to the key part of your post Mike
Yeah, I have to agree, these points aren't clear-cut enough in the post, super valid critique. I'll see if I can expand upon them to try and get my point across better.
For me, an S-Tier Pokemon is one that is clearly a cut above the rest of the metagame. It is a Pokemon that is largely splashable, and if you pass it up when teambuilding you should have a very good reason for doing so. It is versatile, both in play and in a variety of potential sets of similar levels of potency. If it is not variable in its set for the most part, then it excels at what it does, to the point of competition in its role being negligible. An S-Tier pokemon, should be able to do its job the majority of the time, when played properly. This has been extended from the reasoning I had for nomming Zygarde to S-Tier back in September, and also rejecting a Lando-T drop back then.
In comparing Heatran to the other S-rank mons, I wish to go through them 1 by 1 and try to dissect what makes them S-Tier, and why I feel Heatran does not quite hit that benchmark.
Landorus-T: The most splashable mon in the game. Versatile in how it can be used, both in play and with its variety of powerful sets. Scarf, Offensive Z, Defensive, Sash Lead etc. Also excels at what is does, though not to the point where competition is negligible. A king of OU for some time now. Able to do its job consistently when played well, that's why it has above a 30% pick rate on ladder, and I think even higher in Tournament.
Ash-Gren: This one is quite unlike the other two. It lacks the variety that Lando and Mage have once the opponent knows what set it is running. However, Ash-Gren's set has been refined to a tee, and it is able to do its job remarkably. Competition for Ash-Gren's position as the premier Water and Dark offensive threat is unchallenged for both types. The metagame has adapted to combat this threat, and yet it still manages to push through and sweep teams late game or break their core.
Magearna: In my opinion, the best pokemon in the tier. The amount of work this thing can do is kind of ridiculous. It is versatile, both in play and in a variety of powerful sets, again, of similar levels of potency. It can choose its counters based on what set it runs. Shift-Gear, AV, Bolt-Beam, CM Pain-Split, even Trick Room of all things. When played well, will do its job the vast majority of the time. This is a pokemon with no inherent true counter.
And now for,
Heatran: This mon is like the others, a cut above the metagame. I would hesitate to call it largely splashable to the same extent that the other three are. It is versatile in what it can run, and how it can be played. I would argue that its sets are not of a similar level of potency. As Ruft noted, Z-less Heatran, at least in our opinions, should not be S-Tier. Heatran faces tough competition for that Z-crystal, and in my experience is outclassed in many matchups by Mage. This leads into your point about my bad matchup list including Mage. I have to clarify that the S-Tier part of that list wasn't just a bad matchup list, it was also a lesser version of this comparison (or at least that was my intention, I worded it rather poorly in hindsight). A huge part of why I think Heatran is not S-Tier is just how outclassed it feels by Mage, at least personally, which leads to non Z Heatrans being more popular.
Despite my evident endeavor in trying to convince you all that Heatran should fall a rank, to be quite honest I believe it is only slightly below the classification of S rank, on account of its fellows being just a level above it. I am aware that my experience is rather limited so there may be much that I am missing. Thank you MikeDawg and Ruft for your posts, looking forward to more as well.
While I agree that heatran feels a little less effective in the current meta than it did a few months ago, I can't accept the magearna arguments being used. There are 2 things that have been said that I think are patently false.
First, magearna beating or checking heatran? I fail to see how magearna comes out on top. Magma storm cleanly 2HKOs even AV mage, and tran outspeeds. A mage that has already set up a shift gear and has either a fighting z-crystal or some prior chip on heatran will beat it, but that's the only scenario i can think of.
Second, magearna outclassing heatran. They are similar in that they are fat steels with strong offensive potential, but the scary part about heatran has always been that it's so hard to switch into, since the only thing that fears neither magma nor toxic is another heatran (or fini). Magearna is definitely unpredictable and can run a variety of coverage, meaning it can also be tricky to switch into, but that's only because you don't know what move it's gonna throw out at first. Once you know it's set, it becomes easier to check it. Mage cannot trap things, so it cannot possibly outclass heatran.
If tran drops it should be because it has a harder time breaking and has more common checks than it used to in the current meta. The points about garchomp, washtom, and fini are the strongest reasons for a drop (even tho chomp and rotom don't want a toxic). Heatran is far more customizable than most ppl give it credit for (both in EVs and movesets), but overall I agree that it tends to put in less work than it used to.
First, magearna beating or checking heatran? I fail to see how magearna comes out on top. Magma storm cleanly 2HKOs even AV mage, and tran outspeeds. A mage that has already set up a shift gear and has either a fighting z-crystal or some prior chip on heatran will beat it, but that's the only scenario i can think of.
Second, magearna outclassing heatran. They are similar in that they are fat steels with strong offensive potential, but the scary part about heatran has always been that it's so hard to switch into, since the only thing that fears neither magma nor toxic is another heatran (or fini). Magearna is definitely unpredictable and can run a variety of coverage, meaning it can also be tricky to switch into, but that's only because you don't know what move it's gonna throw out at first. Once you know it's set, it becomes easier to check it. Mage cannot trap things, so it cannot possibly outclass heatran.
If tran drops it should be because it has a harder time breaking and has more common checks than it used to in the current meta. The points about garchomp, washtom, and fini are the strongest reasons for a drop (even tho chomp and rotom don't want a toxic). Heatran is far more customizable than most ppl give it credit for (both in EVs and movesets), but overall I agree that it tends to put in less work than it used to.
It's been a while since this nomination, but I'm also going to have to agree on a Kommo-o rise to either C+ or B-. Its flagship Stealth Rock set is so good at the moment, and having an offensive Pokemon defensively AND offensively check both Heatran and Ash-Greninja is a hugely positive trait. I simply don't see Kommo-o on par with regular Latias, Crawdaunt, and Mega Aggron. I'd say it's about on par with Zard Y in terms of viability right now.If someone already made this nom, then count it as a shadow.
Kommo-o C --> C+/B-
I know we raised it last shift, and that this is a MASSIVE jump, but I feel B- is more representative of how viable Kommo-o is. Kommo-o has seen a pretty solid amount of usage recently, whether it be a couple appearences in OUPL, random tournaments throughout OU, or just on ladder. This isn't because it looks cool, however. Obviously, usage isn't DIRECTLY correlated with viability, but they are somewhat connected in the sense that if something gets better, more people are probably going to use it.
My reasons for bumping this up are similar to it's reasoning ,At least if I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, for being bumped up last shift: It's Stealth Rock+Kommonium Z set. Being able to get rocks up after switching in on things like Heatran, Ash Greninja, or a Knock Off from something like Tangrowth, Kommo-o can then fire off a 185-base power STAB attack that boosts all of it's stats by one stage, which the damage alone is enough to cripple the likes of Tornadus-Therian, Zapdos, Landorus-Therian, or any other non-Tapu defogger. Even then, you can just Poison Jab the fairies with enough chip.
Now don't get me wrong, Kommo-o is nice and all, but I highly recommend not bumping this up any further until things get better for it as a while, i.e. Tapu Fini, Magearna, and other things that just slap it become a little less prevalent and overall "good" in the metagame. Kommo-o's speed tier is okay for outspeeding slower, fat things, but struggles to keep up with the majority of the metagame, being outrun by pretty much anything faster then Gliscor, even with the +1 boost, it is still outran by Scarf Landorus Therian and Scarf Tapu Lele, not strong enough to really break Toxapex, even with your boosts, basically giving them a free Haze into Toxic Spikes, as well as having no reliable recovery to even consistently check Heatran and Ash Greninja, so a well timed Toxic from Heatran will put it in a bad spot.
Overall, Kommo-o is better sat among things like Mega Garchomp and Slowbro, then down with Ditto and Mimikyu of all things. If the jump is too far for right now, then at least move it to C+.
Kommo-o's set distribution isn't one-note, either. I've personally been enjoying Dragon Dance Kommonium on hyper offense since it fixes the speed issue that SR Kommonium faces, and the SpDef stall set is pretty good, as well.
Charizard X is a menace to teams and beats certain balance and bulky offense builds. It forces switches on common mons such as Ferrothorn, Magearna, Heatran, Kartana, Volcarona, and even more, and can set up a DD fairly easily depending on the team. It generally has a great advantage of tearing through steel types (which are a requirement on EVERY team in USUM OU), and Fire/Ground coverage at +1 Attack and Speed alone sweeps many unprepared teams and has to be played around to near perfection, otherwise you are at risk losing. With Rocks damage or some chip, it can even beat common checks like Tapu Fini and Rotom, as both fail to kill from full. Obviously, this thing still weaknesses, mainly requiring team support because of its glaring SR weakness, and the fact that it welcomes in and can get beaten by Scarf Landorus, but that is why I believe it should at least be A- rank.
B+ ---> A-/AMega Latios is another Pokemon not deserving of being in the B Tier, and in my opinion is on par with Latias for its insane coverage and offensive pressure it puts on teams. Mega Latios is bulky, and can take hits from Charizard Y, Heatran, Rotom, Non Shadow Ball Mega Zam, etc. and can force each of these out with a strong ass STAB Psychic, Earthquake, Ice Beam, or even Draco if that's your choice. Teams are often very underprepared for this Pokemon, similar to Latias, and can sweep a weakened team in the late game purely with its massive coverage, speed, and bulk. A Pokemon with this many strengths should not be this low.
In a meta where Toxapex runs rampant, Psychic types are really good, and non Water Shuriken priority is not used as much, Hoopa-U shines a little bit more. Its ability to break down walls is very reminiscent of Ash-Greninja (as both run dark STAB and Specs), except Hoopa has the ability to beat Toxapex and Tangrowth with much more ease. This mon is also very versatile; Band, Specs, Scarf, and Nasty Plot Z are all very good sets each with their own merits based on the team. For example, if you want to beat Magearna while also breaking down Celesteelas and other fat walls, Banded Fire Punch is the way to go. If you want to beat special and physical walls in one go, Specs and Nasty Plot can do that for you as well. While Hoopa's giant weakness to fast U-Turn users is prevalent, with the right team support (Ferrothorn, Rocky Helmet Lando/Torn), this mon can definitely tear apart teams. Its weakness to Fairy also holds it back, although a prediction Gunk Shot always gets a clean kill on the Tapus.
Mega Chomp is crazy good and eats bulky offense and balance teams for breakfast. The special set in particular (EQ/Draco/Fire Blast) makes it one of the scariest Pokemon in the tier. The fact that it is still this low is very surprising, especially given its recent SPL performance and usage. Its special moves beats common PhysDef Pokemon that like to switch into Rockium Z Chomp, like Landorus or Tangrowth, and can do massive damage to almost every Pokemon that tries to switch into it. SpDef Pokemon get worn down and beaten with STAB EQ behind a 170 base attack, and with Sand support, Mega Chomp is near impossible to switch into. It's ability to check almost every steel type in the tier, Tangrowth, and Pex while also making almost every Pokemon scared to switch into it (Fini dies to two EQs after rocks, Rotom dies to two Dracos, SpDef Bulu dies to two Fire Blasts) makes this a very solid pick in the tier.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Heatran is oozing with versatility, and while it's viability has dropped recently, it is still S-tier material in my humble opinion. Heatran has so many viable sets that picking one when teambuilding is quite hard. The best one is probably his Z set, but all of his other sets work very well too. For example, I use his Specs set because my team already has a Z crystal locked down and my team is pretty weak to fire as a whole, and I need something that can switch in and threaten fire types immediately. But I was also considering a bulky set, and choice scarf, and air balloon/shuca berry for getting ground types and I just barely decided on Specs for more power. Heatran isn't good because of one set. He's good because he has so many things he can do. Slap 4 moves together, and an appropriate item, and BOOM, you have a viable heatran set. If you decide whether Tran is S tier based on one set, then of course he's not going to be S. That's not the point of Tran. And the reason you don't fear him when you see him in pre view is because that's not his point. He's not a sweeper. Tran won't destroy teams, or completely dismantle cores. Or even auto win against half your team. He provides utility. He can be a threatening hard hitter. Or a fast revenge killer. Or bulky offense, or defensive, or stall, or status spreader with toxic and will-o-wisp, or even trapper with magma storm. He does what he needs to, and that's enough. Heatran also provides a blanket check for most fire types, (excluding those with super effective coverage that is strong enough to kill) which is an important part of why he's in S tier, along with his unique typing of fire steel. And Mage is different enough from Heatran to not overshadow it. They have the same superficial description, (Bulky steel with great special attack) but have separate niches. Honestly, I could see Heatran going down to a theoretical S- tier, as that would fit him very well, but A+ is just not right for him. He's too good for that tier. So until that is created, I'm going to contest this nom.
You didn’t respond or try to dispute any points made as to why Heatran deserves to drop save “versatility”. And most of the sets you listed (Specs, Scarf, Air Balloon, and Shuca) are all bad and have not seem any high level use for that reason. The only sets that are good are z steel, z fire, and spdef leftovers. And we’re not determining it isn’t S worthy based on one set, it’s because of the general meta developments that have happened post Zygarde ban. These include Garchomp, Rotom-W, Mega Latias, and Tapu Fini’s rises in use and viability and the Grass-types it does well against and work well with generally dropping in usage and viability. The stuff Heatran is supposed to check have also adapted to it, which we’ve seen with more Focus Blast Magearna and Knock Off Mega Scizor. Tapu Fini’s terrain blocking Toxic is also really bad for Heatran, who likes crippling its checks with it. Heatran also isn’t as good and consistent as the other S ranks in the current meta, which we see with its use dropping and the other S Pokemon thriving. Its matchup against common archetypes like rain and some bulky offense teams using Fini + Chomp, Chomp + Rotom, or even Mega Alakazam + Fini are quite limited or outright bad. Heatran is more suited to A+ imo for to these reasons and ones stated by others while being about as good as the others in that rank as it still provides great utility and has a threatening presence against most playstyles.
EDIT: Also, no one said Magearna outclassed Heatran lol, idk where you got that from.
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Well first off, I got that people think that Magearna out classes Heatran because the post literally states it. Here's a direct quote. "A huge part of why I think Heatran is not S-Tier is just how outclassed it feels by Mage," So yeah, that's where I got that from. And post-Zygarde has really affected Heatran, but Heatran still puts in work. My Specs Heatran, which you said is bad, has been seriously putting in work on my team, maybe even being the mvp. Just because they're not meta doesn't at all mean that it's unviable. In fact, my Heatran's fire blast kills Lando in 1 hit. And not needing toxic allows it to run Dragon Pulse, for Chomper and Latias on the switch, and Flash canon which 2hkos Fini. That set turns every single one of the counters you listed except Rotom into checks who can't switch in. So while yes, Z is his best set, don't say that his other sets are bad. Because they do have niches, albeit specific ones. One of his biggest counters can't even switch in without risking death. And heatrans' checks adapting is actually a good thing in some cases. Especially Magearna. Mage running FB just for Heatran is a win over all. Mage has so many options for moves, and sacrificing that extra moveslot for one pokemon is good for your team. And besides, Mage still doesn't win in a 1v1 even with focus blast. It 2hkos, and Mage is slower, and focus blast has garbage accuracy, so landing two of them in a row is a 50/50, and that's if she even gets the chance to attack, since Tran is faster. And scizor forgoing stab in bug bite or recovery in roost for knock off is also not the worst thing in the world. Sure, losing your item sucks, but scizor still loses. But you are right about it's checks rising in usage, which really sucks for Tran, which is why I can understand a drop. That along with grass types heading the way of the Dodo are giving it real trouble. But, I just don't see it as A+ material. Maybe I'm biased, but I just don't see Tran as the same level as the others. When I look at A+, I see pokemon that when supported, do fantastic, but need that support to perform that well, or have massive flaws, or simply aren't strong enough for A. The only real exception is Chomp. Heatran doesn't really require support, and he has the raw stats to back it up, with great bulk and special attack. But he isn't quite strong enough to be up to par with the other S-tiers. But just slightly. That's why I think Tran doesn't fit into A=. now, this is just my opinion, and I could be completely off, and i respect your opinion and understand it, but have to disagree.
Dude, im not trying to be harsh but, specs Heatran is bad, and if it works to you, it doesnt mean it will be doing well in High ladder or tournament play. Rises or drops are based in what the mon is doing right now in the meta in agreement with the meta changes.
I agree with a drop to A+ of it, as the meta is very against it with the rise of threats that Heatran dislikes a lot as Ophion said. That drop isnt saying that Heatran is bad, just the meta shapes less around it, but still very threatening, just that
Specs Heatran (and the others I put in brackets last post) hasn't been used in any high level games in forever. Please feel free to link a HIGH level game in which they did anything. And even then, they don't see any consistent use as they're not consistent sets and don't provide the utility the other actually used sets do. Magearna doesn't run Focus Blast only for Heatran lol, and that doesn't help Heatran. To your point about Magearna losing 1v1, it does. But Focus Blast is still a threat and makes SG Magearna beat any weakened Heatran or healthy z move one with chip. We're talking the Pokemon as an individual, not Heatran and its teammates. Knock Off removing Heatran's Leftovers is awful too, it makes it not a good long-term check for things like Lele or Tornadus anymore and makes taking entry hazards much punishing. I also never said Scizor beats Heatran 1v1 either, Knock Off is just annoying and crippling to take on the switch. Also, the definition of an S rank (according to the NU VR but very likely applies to all VRs) states "Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets". The A rank definition on the other hand states "Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back". With both of these definitions side by side, Heatran seems to fit the latter due to an influx in use of its countermeasures and a drop in use of the stuff it does well against as well as the Pokemon it does do well against being better prepared for it. Next time you defend or make a nom, try to have a better understanding of the metagame and discuss how metagame changes aren't as negative, positive, or negative for the thing you're nomming.
I don't mind any discussion on Heatran dropping to A+, but the current discussion is not so much about Heatran's actual viability in the tier as it is about whether Choice Specs Heatran is viable or not. If you're going to make a post arguing about Choice Specs Heatran's viability, you should use this thread instead. If you're not, and actually want to present legitimate arguments to support why you think Heatran should stay in S or drop to A+, feel free to post here, of course.
B -----> (B+)/A-
Hawlucha does not belong in B- tier. If you look at the majority of the mons in that rank, you'll see that they are all for the most part Borderline on their tier listings while Hawlucha is a legit OU threat. One of it's best partners, Tapu Koko, sees very usage which makes it very easy to fit into most teams. Koko's access to U turn/ Volt switch and it's tendency to lure in ground and grass types give Lucha plenty of opportunities to safely switch in, set up and sweep.
Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics
- Substitute
Substitute Hawlucha is a very underrated set and is in my opinion, it's best set. Before I get into why I feel this way, lets look at its other more commonly used moves which are Roost, Stone Edge, Drain Punch and Poison Jab.
Roost is a great move to use when you like to use Lucha early and mid game as it allows you to recover damage taken in those turns allowing it to set up sweep later at full or near full health. Stone Edge, while having unreliable accuracy is Lucha's best option against Zapdos which otherwise walls it's usual sets but it doesn't really have much use other than that. Drain Punch is a fairly strong Fighting type move Hawlucha can use that doesn't risk crash damage and can be used to recover a bit of damage as well but having two fighting type moves means it loses out on one of the other type coverage moves giving it a harder match up against Zap and Koko. Poison Jab is mainly to hit Koko which can give Lucha problems and is super common in the current metagame. Other than that, its pretty useless as Acrobatics does more damage to everything else assuming it's berry has been consumed.
Out of all the options mentioned above, Roost is it's best and overall most reliable move, but even then, it's hard to find an opportunity to use as it is very frail before the seed boost, doesn't have the firepower or speed to force many switches and in the late game would much rather boost its attack with any free turn it can get.
Roost also has the same problem as all the other moves mentioned above in that it can't prevent status moves. This mon is vulnerable to every status move in the game and is either heavily crippled by them or put on a timer. It is for this reason (and a few more that I'll mention in a bit) that I feel Substitute is Lucha's best fourth slot option.
Substitute let's Hawlucha set up on Mons that the current sets can beat but can't reliably set up on such as Toxic Gliscor Spore Amoongus and T wave Chansey just to name a few. It can even set up on SSSS Landorus (one of its more common checks) by Subbing on the z move, subbing a second time as it flies or switches out and then it can proceed to set up behind a sub. The awesome thing about all the Pokes I mentioned above is that they are all Pokes that Koko lures in.
Once its behind a sub, certain checks such as Mawhile can no longer beat it as they can't intimidate on the switch in and Mons such as Mega Lopunny/ Mega Medicham can no longer chip it to death.
Since the Sub set loses out on Coverage moves, it has to rely a bit more on it's team mates to chip away at the usual counters I mentioned above. This however is not too difficult a task as the most common Koko set (Specs) loses to +2 Lucha after switching in on Rocks twice. This is true for most other checks as well which include Tapu Fini, Magearna and non Unaware Clefable. Zapdos is weak to Rocks as well as it has to constantly switch in and out do to how popular it is as a defogger.
Since this set also loses out on a reliable form of recovery, it is limited to the amount of times it can switch in and out unless it is paired with a wish passer or a team mate with healing wish. I'm hoping this post helps players see that this Poke has more potential than its current ranking shows.
(I feel it can also be placed in B+ rank if it gets fixed as I feel most of the Pokes in that rank are either too high or too low.)
Below are a few high level games I played using the Sub Lucha set and a description of how it helped win the match
Sub helps me stall out Trick Room to win the game at the end
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-917481280
Sub helps against Land Intimidate and prevents mega Lopunny from Fake Out Flinching
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-916518322
A team with three Lucha checks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-915367914
Seting up on an Amoonguss Spore
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-862264246
Sub Hax for the win
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861765612
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up to A- : AgreeWhile Mega Latias's bulk makes it usually a superior choice over Mega Latios, the latter's firepower and coverage are still nice. Furthermore, with the likes of SpDef Jirachi and Magearna becoming more prevalent, Mega Latios's strong EQ lets it take advantage of these Pokémon, and with decreasing number of SpDef Tapu Bulu, Mega Latios now has more room to run Draco Meteor which generally makes it more dangerous and enables it to threaten Pokémon that it couldn't back when Ice Beam Mega Latios was the best option, such as Mega Alakazam and Ash-Greninja.
Heatran is still definitely one of the best Pokémon in OU, but the metagame is way too prepared for Heatran in my opinion, in comparison with other three S-rank Pokémon. Sure, all of them face sufficient counterplay, but in Heatran's case, I feel like it is wider and stronger. The omnipresence of Garchomp, Tapu Fini, Rotom-W etc really makes Heatran's life harder. While various Z-Moves like ZSteel and ZGrass let it overwhelm such answers, the competition for a Z-Move slot is really tough now, as for me. Also Heatran probably faces the strongest offensive counterplay than other S-rank Pokémon, with Landorus-T, Ash-Greninja, Garchomp, and the likes going wild in the metagame. While defensive set of Heatran can fuck up some offensive counterplay by constantly chipping them down and using Protect, this set is vulnerable to chipping down by itself, and sometimes struggles to properly check threats is is supposed to as a defensive Steel-type, like Mega Alakazam and Tapu Lele. Actually, this makes me want to run other defensive Steel-type like Magearna and Jirachi. Overall, all these factors make Heatran not an S-rank Pokémon.
The counterplay to Hawlucha, like Zapdos and Tapu Fini, seems absurdly easy to fit on teams right now, and obviously it makes Hawlucha's life harder. In addition, Hawlucha's nature - one-time setup sweeper - makes it worse in my eyes due to its inconsistency. Sure, Hawlucha just runs through unprepared teams but such teams become rarer and rarer because of the spashability of Hawlucha's answers. This matchup dependence is really shitty thing.
jordy edit: I made the text readable for dark and light mode users.
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Very few Pokemon in Rank B can threaten top level teams and even the few that can, players have agued for them to rise (Hoopa Victini). The fact that Players run certain ev spreads (Lando, Mawile, more defensive Torn) just to deal with it proves that it doesn't belong in the same tier as all these other Pokes. Being Lucha weak is more of a reason to rebuild a team than being Kingda weak (you can insert pretty much any Mon in that rank).
It may be weak to Zapdos and hard loses to unaware Clef, but we play a game with 6 mons and Zapdos, especially the Defog set, is a Mon that constantly has to be switching in and out which makes it susceptible to chip damage and Can also be lured and KOed by team mates such as giga impact Excadrill and Kartana. Same with Fini except it doesn't have reliable recovery, must be running moonblast and even then, fails to OHKO spdef invested Lucha and Misty/Psychic terrain variants.
Once Its checks are weakend of KOed, its usually game over. Most of its usual checks like the ones with custom ev spreads can't take more than 25% worth of chip or they will get KOed at +2.
Here's a video with a semi lure Scizor set
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-905605251
It may be weak to Zapdos and hard loses to unaware Clef, but we play a game with 6 mons and Zapdos, especially the Defog set, is a Mon that constantly has to be switching in and out which makes it susceptible to chip damage and Can also be lured and KOed by team mates such as giga impact Excadrill and Kartana. Same with Fini except it doesn't have reliable recovery, must be running moonblast and even then, fails to OHKO spdef invested Lucha and Misty/Psychic terrain variants.
Once Its checks are weakend of KOed, its usually game over. Most of its usual checks like the ones with custom ev spreads can't take more than 25% worth of chip or they will get KOed at +2.
Here's a video with a semi lure Scizor set
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-905605251
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Sayuze
Banned deucer.
you're acting like hawlucha isn't so fucking frail and can set up on everything. 78hp/87def/63spdef are p horrible defensive base stats for a setup sweeper such as it, and its typing doesnt really help it defensively. even if something like zapdos and unaware clef are the only "hard counters" to it, there are soft checks such as toxapex for example. it is not consistent at all, it doesn't really reliably setup as something such as SG magearna, hence why it is ranked that way. it only gets 1 chance to setup in a given game and you have to time it perfectly, or else you can't sweep with it, and that "perfect timing" is usually hard to pull off. therefore, b- rank is fine for it
Marigold
formerly KuraiTenshi26
You're right, its stats on paper aren't good defensively. It can't just set up on every single mon that it wants. Soft checks do exist. It doesn't set up as easily as Magearna. It usually only gets one shot to sweep.
So what?
In practice, the terrain seed + a ton of hp invest + the typing you're dismissing lets it set up on commonly spammed FWG builds. Fat grasses and ground types (scarf lando, rockium chomp, toxic gliscor which Jebus broke down for us already) are mandatory on these standard builds, and they are free turns for Hawlucha unless they bring Hawlucha-specific tech (a testament to its threat level when building compared to everything else in B-). Hawlucha doesn't even need to set up vs HO on ladder, or common rain builds in tournaments once Manaphy/Mega Swampert has taken chip. Can it set up on a Lele or Firium Heatran? No. Can it win when its soft checks are healthy? No. Does it need to in order to rise to B or B+? Hell no, if it could then we'd have suspect-worthy problems on our hands. Sweepers have checks and offensive counterplay, this isn't news.
Even our coveted Magearna (the S class sweeper you had to compare against of all things, just a testament to Hawlucha again) has some level of counterplay, every sweeper does. This isn't a nominated rise to Magearna tier where you can toss out your 5 other mons, get a lucky shift gear, and win cause you had the 3 correct moves for the matchup no matter how badly you played. This is a nomination to Gyarados or Zard X tier, and it's at least as threatening or more in the builder and in practice as those mons. If you wanna argue against a rise, you'd have to compare to those sweepers in those tiers. Not to the best mon in OU, it's no surprise to anybody in the entire OU forum that Magearna is better.
Hawlucha isn't going to sweep stall or magic guard hazard spam teams, nor would I expect it to. That's not why you put it on your team. You bring Hawlucha when you want it to fuck up Hyper Offense or standard Bulky Offense builds. It's very consistent at sweeping those. It's not going to sweep on turn 4 when all their minimal anti-lucha tech is intact, but does it have to to rise to B or B+? lol As long as you expect honest things from your setup wincon and build your team as such (wallbreakers/hazard stack to get chip), Hawlucha will pull through. You can't just "play around it xd" the entire game either, how long are you going to keep your fat grass on the bench when the Hawlucha is paired with Ash Gren or Koko? How long are you going to perfectly preserve your scarf Explosion Lando when he has a Medicham or Garchomp? How long are you going to "just preserve Fini" when your opponent brings Hawlucha rain? It turns out that Hawlucha has 5 other teammates to work with, several of which can force you into setup opportunities or getting worn down.
tldr: "It's not Magearna-level good so don't rise it to B+" makes zero sense and completely misses the point of Jebus' nom
I never said it wasn't frail, I mentioned that fact in one of my posts, actually. There's nothing wrong with it's defensive typing as being a flying/fighting type only leaves it with a neutrality to SR and an immunity to all other entry hazards. Let's also not forget to mention the fact that it basically has 279 base Defense or 243 base Sp Def depending on the set after consuming it's seed and that's assuming it has no ev investment.
The Sub set can take on Toxapex with the right ev investment. Even when it comes to the standard set, Toxapex only has a 37.5% chance of breaking its sub. It can set up on enough Pokes including most Lando sets which is used in a little over 40% of games and I already mention how most of it's soft checks are super unreliable as they can't really take much chip damage.
With Koko as its partner, it's not really difficult to pull off a sweep as it is one of the best Volt Switchers/U Turners in the game and it lures in Mons Lucha can easily set up on.
It also only needs one chance to set up once its checks/counters are weakened. You can go through the Viability rankings list and almost every Poke on there gets outrun and OHKOed by a Max attack or near Max attack +2 Lucha after rocks damage.
Honestly how many other B- rank mons do you hear about that get mentioned when it comes to justifications for running certain ev spreads? EV spreads that have little use other than to stop this one specific "B- rank" Mon
Sayuze
Banned deucer.
you clearly did not understand my point. and your points make 0 sense so let me just go and prove them wrong real quick:
-> i dont think you understand that no matter if you give hawlucha 252hp/252spdef+ its still frail. how does hawlucha set up for FREE on fwg cores, except certain mons such as tangrowth and tapu bulu lets say (ANYTHING ELSE ISNT FREE SETUP). so much can be used to weaken it. scarf lando gets an intimidate and a free pivot into something that can live hjk/acro, rockium chomp is not a free setup, toxic gliscor poisons and lives +2 acro, etc... these are not free setups at all lol. and it MOST CERTAINLY does need to be at +2 to sweep, if you are denying this then you need to watch more games of where lucha sweeps. Compare this to magearna (bc its a more consistent sweeper), with its typing it can setup on so much more such as alakazam, pex, bulu... even having the defensive typing and stats to setup on stuff sometimes like av mag or tangrowth
-> i chose magearna as an example. there are other sweepers such as excadrill, dd zard x, so much more that offer alot more than hawlucha and can function individually as well. i know every sweeper has counterplay otherwise it wouldn't be in this tier. my main argument was that hawlucha isnt as CONSISTENT, or versatile as well, as other prominent sweepers in the tier, hence why it is ranked lower.
-> the only thing i can agree with it being consistent is vs HO, but HO is a pretty bad playstyle in this meta anyways. def not very consitent vs bulky offense as it struggles to break through pex + steela + scarf lando along with so much more effectively
tl;dr: You didn't understand my argument, made zero sense and missed my point
pointless to beat a dead bush, so i dont have much to say except any other set than sd roost is a joke. read my points above
you really emphasize that hawlucha is frail and doesn't get free set up, but I dont think that was ever really the point. Even if you do take damage, as long as you can get an SD and survive, that's all it really takes to win late game. So yeah, rockium chomp isn't free I guess, but you certainly do set up pretty damn safely:
252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. +1 96 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 166-196 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 96 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 139-165 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO (after roost)
2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 384-453 (107.5 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if garchomp tries to SD as you SD, obviously they die the next turn, so the most damage they can do in one turn is drop z immediately, and this is it. Hell, you can SD the first turn, roost until they SD/eq, and then sweep more safely. Given these calcs, how can you readily say "rockium chomp isn't free" ? This is as free as it gets for a cleaner bro
So what if lando-t can pivot in to intimidate? If it can't touch you then its another free SD, now the mon that you had in the back to take a +1 hjk/acro needs to eat a +3 hjk/acro. So what if gliscor poisons u and +2 acro doesnt kill? SD again and now you have like 4 turns to kill shit, which should be plenty to decide a lategame. None of the arguments you offer are convincing to support your stance that hawlucha is inconsistent or somehow a worse mon than zard-x/exca/etc.
On the other hand, you mention stuff like "Compare this to magearna (bc its a more consistent sweeper), with its typing it can setup on so much more such as alakazam" implying that shift mag sets up on these mons better than lucha does vs the examples you listed, and yet
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 145-171 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 97-115 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 73-86 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 97.5% chance to 4HKO
This is LESS safe than hawlucha vs rockium chomp that you so adamantly insist isn't free, and magearna has to waste its z-fleur/z-flash cannon to ohko immediately, which would otherwise be far more helpful in killing bulkier pokemon. Otherwise, you have to calm mind and risk sdef drops, crits, and even then at +2 tbolt/ice beam doesnt ohko, Flash cannon just barely does.
You imply bulu is safe set up, but what really happens vs even the weakest sets like sdef SD? you dont ohko bulu without +1 z-fleur, so you need to set up calm mind& shift gear, giving bulu enough time to land a +2 superpower on u (63.7-75%, less "free" than rockium chomp). +2 ice beam isn't even a guaranteed kill, so u might need 3 cms and a shift before u get past bulu, giving it enough time to +4 superpower and kill u. So unless ur steel-z, u can't really get away with setting up on bulu without either wasting your z-move or getting weakened a lot.
Of course, if we're talking about stronger sets, cb wood hammer does 71-83.7% lmao. And somehow gliscor poisoning u isnt free but bulu is.
If we talk about pex, then unless you're some tech set like z-tbolt+koko terrain (doesn't function much more individually than lucha) or metronome tbolt, you're basically relying on tbolt para and no scald burn to beat pex, and if they do they can just correctly alternate haze/recover until burn chip kills u. Nearly identical matchup as lucha, yet hawlucha struggles to break thru pex but gear sets up on it.
252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 88.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Also why did you say it struggles vs bulky offense and then mention toxapex; pex is passive af and a balance mon at best.
In any case, these are some heavy double standards you applyin to a mon that is B- rank anyway, when gear is S. You say so much can be used to weaken lucha but the examples u mention are pretty clean set ups, and you go on to say that bc of gear's typing it doesnt get as weakened as lucha but all the examples u mention are far more risky. I'm not even suggesting lucha should rise, but come up with some better examples if u want ur argument to hold.
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Okay, What changed in the Metagame for Hawlucha in such a positive way to rise it? if anything the recent trends is more negative towards it than anything, with Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mega Latias, Boom Scarf Lando being more common, Your right, Hawlucha is very good vs Hyper Offense and once its checks are weakened it (& Hyper Offense has seen better days) & to be honest most playstyles outside of Offense are naturally prepared for Hawlucha, But the stuff you are saying such as weakening its checks with other pokemon, (Which has nothing to do with the mon itself) and mons that can check it doesnt necessarily have the best recovery can be said for a lot of other set up sweepers such as Gyarados or even Kommo-o, sure it has a good rain matchup but even then T-Wave Ferro is common on rain & even rain boosted water priority from Greninja is anoyying for it so its not like its as a easy matchup as it seems, Not to say Hawlucha is bad or anything i think its fine were its at but i would have to Disagree with it rising.
Saying Hawlucha is very consistent at sweeping Bulky Offense builds when mons such as Zapdos, Tapu Fini & Mega Latias are on the rise is a stretch, I agree with comparing it to Magearna is wrong but rising it with the likes of Charizard-X or even higher than Gyarados is off to me because these higher ranked set up sweepers are less restricted to a certain play-style, Hawlucha after its used it berry usually Cannot sweep efficiently anymore, its a one time thing, which is really bad for playstyles such as Bulky Offense which are more balanced defensively as well as offensively, Bulky Offense needs all of their members to function throughout the game which is why Hawlucha is more useful on playstyles such as Offense or Hyper Offense where defensive utility is not as important, The thing with this is that higher ranked sweepers are not as restricted while mons such as Gyrados are in a similar situation as they are more often used on Offensive builds, The biggest problem with this nom is that as i said earlier offensive playstyles are somewhat on a Decline right now (Outside of Rain) with mons such as Ash Greninja being so dangerous which really hurts Lucha,
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Got a few thoughts then going to make a nom of my own:
B+ -> A-
Adding on to what The D-Match said about M.Zard-X, it seems with Trans drop in usage (16.4%->13.4%) and viability (still probably S worthy though) as teams are very prepped for it, Charizards Dragon stab has been more spammable, allowing it to smack the likes of M.Latias, Rotom-W and more importantly Garchomp, while still netting many essential 2hkos. This makes Zard all the more threatening at team preview, as the popular current Scarfers can't revenge kill reliably.
B+ -> A-
Magearna is always amazing, and Psychic Spam with Lele and Zam doesnt seem to be dying anytime soon, I believe that Jirachi is more than worthy of A- for its ability to check these both well, while compacting a pivot and Rocks user into one set. While I don't think anything in the meta has overly changed to benefit Jirachi, though Heatrans drop in usage is nice, with psyspam still being high usage and Magearna being ever consistent, I think it was ranked wrong initially and should be looked at again.
Nomming for Nihilego to C/-
Nihilego @ Electrium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Power Gem
- Thunder
- Toxic Spikes
With Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Tapu Fini and Rotom-W being the tiers premiere Defogers, and Pex being the top Poison to absorb Tspikes, Nihilego has an excellent match-up vs these. Nihilego able to 2hko them all, and switch in relatively safely to Pex, TornT, Fini and certain Zapdos, applying pressure to easily keep Tspikes up unlike defensive setters. Electrium Z allows Nihilego to off Pex after chip, luring it in with Tspikes, many Pex will feel safe to stay in too with the low damage Power Gem does. M.Latias, Suicune, and many other bulky set up mons that also appreciate Tspike support pair amazingly with Nihilego, as well as the likes of Ash-Gren who also likes Tspikes ability to pressure Fini, Tang and many of its other checks. Electrium Z also works well to lure Celesteela, though a bit of chip is needed to put into range of Elec Z.
The problems arise vs the other defensive mons in the tier, both Ferrothorn and Magearna fear no consequence from Nihilego when switching in, while SpDef Heatran with Earth Power prove troublesome throughout matches. While Poison Rock is really good offensive typing in the tier at the moment, with the lack of a boosting item, it hits rather weak, relying on SE damage most of the time. Also while its SpDef is good, its Phys Def often leads it to be forced out by priority from the likes of M.Scizor and M.Mawile, and wanting to keep Tspikes up, hazards will be more common with not wanting to Defog as often, Nihilego is quickly chipped through Hazards.
I feel Nihilego is at least C personally, as its job within the metagame seems lets niche than those within C-. There seems to be a current rise in M.Venusaur usage which is hurting it so C- is also fitting.
Also peoples thoughts on
B -> B+ ?
EDIT: Since this post has gained more traction than my RMT that I spent 12hours putting together the thread alone, I'm gonna use it to shamelessly plug it here. If you want to try out Nihilego on team, and see an example of how its built around, check it out:)
Adding on to what The D-Match said about M.Zard-X, it seems with Trans drop in usage (16.4%->13.4%) and viability (still probably S worthy though) as teams are very prepped for it, Charizards Dragon stab has been more spammable, allowing it to smack the likes of M.Latias, Rotom-W and more importantly Garchomp, while still netting many essential 2hkos. This makes Zard all the more threatening at team preview, as the popular current Scarfers can't revenge kill reliably.
Magearna is always amazing, and Psychic Spam with Lele and Zam doesnt seem to be dying anytime soon, I believe that Jirachi is more than worthy of A- for its ability to check these both well, while compacting a pivot and Rocks user into one set. While I don't think anything in the meta has overly changed to benefit Jirachi, though Heatrans drop in usage is nice, with psyspam still being high usage and Magearna being ever consistent, I think it was ranked wrong initially and should be looked at again.
Nomming for Nihilego to C/-
Nihilego @ Electrium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Power Gem
- Thunder
- Toxic Spikes
With Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Tapu Fini and Rotom-W being the tiers premiere Defogers, and Pex being the top Poison to absorb Tspikes, Nihilego has an excellent match-up vs these. Nihilego able to 2hko them all, and switch in relatively safely to Pex, TornT, Fini and certain Zapdos, applying pressure to easily keep Tspikes up unlike defensive setters. Electrium Z allows Nihilego to off Pex after chip, luring it in with Tspikes, many Pex will feel safe to stay in too with the low damage Power Gem does. M.Latias, Suicune, and many other bulky set up mons that also appreciate Tspike support pair amazingly with Nihilego, as well as the likes of Ash-Gren who also likes Tspikes ability to pressure Fini, Tang and many of its other checks. Electrium Z also works well to lure Celesteela, though a bit of chip is needed to put into range of Elec Z.
The problems arise vs the other defensive mons in the tier, both Ferrothorn and Magearna fear no consequence from Nihilego when switching in, while SpDef Heatran with Earth Power prove troublesome throughout matches. While Poison Rock is really good offensive typing in the tier at the moment, with the lack of a boosting item, it hits rather weak, relying on SE damage most of the time. Also while its SpDef is good, its Phys Def often leads it to be forced out by priority from the likes of M.Scizor and M.Mawile, and wanting to keep Tspikes up, hazards will be more common with not wanting to Defog as often, Nihilego is quickly chipped through Hazards.
I feel Nihilego is at least C personally, as its job within the metagame seems lets niche than those within C-. There seems to be a current rise in M.Venusaur usage which is hurting it so C- is also fitting.
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 204-242 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 280-330 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 134-158 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 282-332 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 432-510 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 105-125 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 9.9% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 77-91 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 282-332 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 93-111 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 73-87 (24 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 204-242 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 280-330 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 134-158 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 282-332 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 432-510 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 105-125 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 9.9% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 77-91 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 282-332 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 93-111 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 73-87 (24 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921852891 Lured Pex and check Blacephalon with special bulk
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921841467 Lured Pex enabling to Tspike whole team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920451194 Used TornT to set up Tspikes allowing mono Stored Power M.Latias to Roost stall Ash-Greninja
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920176072 Used TornT to set up Tspikes
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921890263 Used TornT to set up Tspikes allowing for Roost stalling rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921864350 Used TornT to set up Tspikes which pressured Diggersby and Fini
I've ladder'd for like 12 hours and didnt find a single Celesteela replay worth sharing (too low elo or opponent made bad plays)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921841467 Lured Pex enabling to Tspike whole team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920451194 Used TornT to set up Tspikes allowing mono Stored Power M.Latias to Roost stall Ash-Greninja
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920176072 Used TornT to set up Tspikes
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921890263 Used TornT to set up Tspikes allowing for Roost stalling rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921864350 Used TornT to set up Tspikes which pressured Diggersby and Fini
I've ladder'd for like 12 hours and didnt find a single Celesteela replay worth sharing (too low elo or opponent made bad plays)
EDIT: Since this post has gained more traction than my RMT that I spent 12hours putting together the thread alone, I'm gonna use it to shamelessly plug it here. If you want to try out Nihilego on team, and see an example of how its built around, check it out:)
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