SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword & Shield Pre-Release SPOILERS - Check Post 2!

[Pushinguplilacs]

Just because it’s not as viable doesn’t mean it’s not a fun strategy to use. This game isn’t always about winning in the most straightforward way possible.

That said it sucks that 4 gens later trick room finally gets its first support and it comes in the form of a terrible item. They did terrain extenders as soon as the surge abilities were introduced, I don’t see why they can’t do the same for trick room.

I enjoy trick room dont get me wrong. It is fun, I'm stating that a pokemon's trick room viability or ability to set it up is never going to be a factor in tiering. At least not for a singles meta

Well...

Anyway, Blitz have updated the post with comprehensive new item list found so far.
And maybe, just careful everyone, not to turn this too much into a pseudo-suspect thread. I don't think DHR will like that.

Perhaps a separate thread should be made for that then because folks definitely want to do that lol.

 

[DreamPrince]

That's not even remotely how model storage works. Even if they for some reason made hyper-detailed models of these big Pokemon there's no way the expanded textures would fill up the game cartridge.

And if somehow that is true then Gamefreak's entire leading staff should be fired for incompetence if they thing the fans would rather have "big Pikachu" over half the existing Pokedex.

Masuda also mentioned that Dynamax models are not the same: Rather, its a separate model, with the cloud effect being a part of it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I believe with the GameInformer they stated that Dynamax Size growth was one of the reasons that Dexit occured: They are like 90+ Ft, meaning they are huge to store in game files. This probably why Dexit occured in the first place ( or at least a reason why ) they couldn't figure out a way to use Dynamax models + all 800 Pokemon.

I don't think they ever said that, that's just been a long time speculation by fans. Their reason for Dexit was always because it was an exchange for better visuals and wanting to constantly be changing up things without being bagged down by past mechanics & features (having to bring over all Pokemon being one of these features). Infact if they ever admitted the reason for Dexit was because of the model thing I think it would receive major backlash.

That's not even remotely how model storage works. Even if they for some reason made hyper-detailed models of these big Pokemon there's no way the expanded textures would fill up the game cartridge.

GF is notoriously bad at programming, especially concerning cartridge size. Most famous example being Iwata doing simple data compression for Gold & Silver giving GF enough room to add in all of Kanto (which before they just made into one giant town that's a vague diorama of Kanto).

 

[MrHands]

GF is notoriously bad at programming, especially concerning cartridge size. Most famous example being Iwata doing simple data compression for Gold & Silver giving GF enough room to add in all of Kanto (which before they just made into one giant town that's a vague diorama of Kanto).

They have 30 years of experience. I really don't think they cut half the dex because Dynamax models were too large.

Also Game Boy cartridges aren't all the same. The data in R/B basically pushed the cartridge to its limit but by the time G/S came out the Game Boy carts had significant data storage upgrades. Despite being on the same system R/B and G/S existed in very different hardware worlds.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Why Not?, if you use a Z move you cannot Dynamax, if you megaevolved you cannot dynamax, If you Dynamax you cannot megaevolve or use your z item, plain easy. Gems are treated like regular items so they can work with Dynamax (depending if the items have any effect while the pokemon is in a dynamax state)

There are a few reasons why not:

1. Because it's a clusterfuck of mechanics that were not designed to exist together.

2. If we bring back mega stones and z-crystals, why not bring back gems, which haven't existed since Gen 5? Why not bring back the Berserk Gene, which hasn't existed since Gen 2? Why not bring back all the useless e-reader berries?

3. Why limit ourselves to items? Why not give Levitate to Gengar, or Shadow Tag to Chandelure? Why not have Hyper Beam not recharge if you KO something?

The reason for all these why nots is that it would result in a very subjectively defined meta that throws itself all the way into Pet Mod territory.

 

[Pikachu315111]

They have 30 years of experience. I really don't think they cut half the dex because Dynamax models were too large.

GF often falls back to using "brute force" programming, especially when it comes to models. Because remember in addition to the 400 Pokemon each having a separate Dynamax model, but each also has a separate Shiny model which have their own separate Dynamax model. And then we have the Pokemon with multiple forms, all who have their own Shiny models as well, and then all of those models getting their own Dyanamax model.

2. If we bring back mega stones and z-crystals, why not bring back gems, which haven't existed since Gen 5?

Actually I think a lot of people would like to have the Gems back, or at least the Flying Gem.

 

[PimpParasect]

They have 30 years of experience. I really don't think they cut half the dex because Dynamax models were too large.

Keep in mind GF also loads a new lillie model for every time she appears onscreen in sun and moon. They're very inefficient with their coding.

To them, 400 pokemon means 800 models (excluding gender differences, shinies, and forms.), because the dynamax pokemon don't just scale in real time, it loads a different model of the bigger pokemon with the clouds (or scales the model with the clouds).

Experience means nothing if they never learned from their mistake to begin with.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I've had a few requests for adding the known new items, so I've gone and added them all in the doc under a "New Items" tab. Please let me know if I'm missing anything / have a mistake.

Changelog:

New Items

Competitive Held Items:

Throat Spray - Raises Special Attack when a Pokémon uses a sound-based move.
Blunder Policy - Raises Speed sharply when a Pokémon misses with a move because of accuracy.
Heavy-Duty Boots - These boots prevent the effects of traps set on the battlefield.
Eject Pack - When the holder's stats are lowered, it will be switched out of battle.
Room Service - Lowers Speed in Trick Room.
Rusted Shield - When held, transforms Zamazenta into its Crowned Shield Forme. Changes its stats and gains an added Steel-type.

Presumed Item:
[Rusted Sword] - When held, transforms Zacian into its [Crowned Sword] Forme. Changes its stats and gains an added Steel-type.

Other Items:

Tart Apple - Used to evolve Applin to Appletun.
Milcery Sweets - Used to evolve Milcery into Alcremie. Known variants: Clover Sweet, Star Sweet
Nature Mints - Given to a Pokémon to give it the boosts and nerfs of the corresponding Nature (basically a Nature changer). Does not change actual Nature. Examples: Hasty Mint, Naughty Mint, Timid Mint.
Exp Candy - Boosts a Pokémon's Experience. | Known variants: Exp Candy XS, Exp Candy S, Exp Candy M, Exp Candy L, Exp Candy XL

Is it known if Rusted Shield and Rusted Sword can be Knocked Off, Embargo'd, or Tricked?

 

[PimpParasect]

Side note, do we have any confirmation how dynamax ditto works?

Does ditto copy a dynamaxed pokemon permanantly?

 

[Pikachu315111]

Is it known if Rusted Shield and Rusted Sword can be Knocked Off, Embargo'd, or Tricked?

Probably not as they're needed for Zacian and Zamazenta to change forms.

Side note, do we have any confirmation how dynamax ditto works?

Does ditto copy a dynamaxed pokemon permanantly?

Going to guess Ditto will just fail if it uses Transform/Imposter against a Dyanamaxed Pokemon.

 

[MrHands]

Keep in mind GF also loads a new lillie model for every time she appears onscreen in sun and moon. They're very inefficient with their coding.

To them, 400 pokemon means 800 models (excluding gender differences, shinies, and forms.), because the dynamax pokemon don't just scale in real time, it loads a different model of the bigger pokemon with the clouds (or scales the model with

Yeah they had multiple lillie models because they had ample data space in the 3ds cart. There's no reason to aggressively compress files if they already have enough room.

Cartridge space is not and never was a deciding factor in Dexit.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Actually I think a lot of people would like to have the Gems back, or at least the Flying Gem.

I'm not saying that adding back cut stuff couldn't result in an interesting metagame (except for the part about figuring out how Dynamaxing interacts with Megas and Z-moves). What I'm saying is that such a meta would have no business trying to pass itself off as a main meta.

 

[Bombkirby]

Well that's rather disappointing. Infact I'd say it defeats the whole purpose of the growing big visual if the Pokemon doesn't even become stronger.



Sorry I care about the franchise and I don't want to see if go through mechanical bloat.

Only special pokemon can G-max. You have to encounter and capture the G-certified pokemon from raids, and use those.

ex; any centiskorch you find can't G-max, but if you find a G-max raid of one, the one you catch can.

Aegislash bullshit

I'm not proban or anti-ban, would like to actually see aegislash in the meta for some time rather than outright quick ban it..

But can we not pretend that 50/50s had anything to do with its ban and won't be the reason for it to be banned? Its been the fucking worst argument since its x/y suspect that mostly everyone agreed was a bullshit reasoning anyway.

Aegislash was banned for centralizing the entire meta, checking almost everything in it and being too difficult to teambuild against without running an aegislash yourself. It was too unpredictable with its sub-toxic set, crumbler head smash set, and the fact it can pick or choose its walls either with a physical or special set. The 50/50 argument was never valid because there's plenty of 50/50 elements in the game, there was just nothing as godly at checking and countering the entire meta in one team slot. The only thing too difficult to predict about aegislash was the set it was running, checking it could instead just be a death sentence or an opportunity for it to setup. King's Shield had nothing to do with this, especially since not all physical attacks were contact moves anyway, Smeargle wasn't broken with it, and status/special moves were unaffected.

If 50/50s was a legitmate excuse; sucker punch, double switching, and the upcoming obstagoon would be immidiately restricted.

That being said, if it were to get banned, it'd be primarily for it being too damn good at walling and sweeping the entire meta, and like others have already mentioned, even old checks still can't handle it or lose to some of its sets. The only hope would be if the dynamaxed counters actually threatened aegislash, especially since it can't use dynamax well itself due to king's shield changing. A lot of dyna mons may manage the vital 2hko's, ohko's, or surviving the 3hko's inorder to beat aegislash.

A model being rescaled doesn’t affect its file size. It's actually just a basic modification in every 3d program. You can edit the size, position, and rotation of anything 3d without making its file size increase. As far as the game knows, a giant model is the same thing as a model that’s 3 inches from the camera.

Unless Gigantimax/D-Maxed Pokemon are a second totally different super high poly recreation of the original model, then it shouldn't have been a problem to make them. If that IS what they did yhen... that's just silly decision making on their end. It's pretty clear to me that they went with this giant-Pokemon thing because its so easy to make. It seemed like a way to make sure "every one" can go Mega without spending a week building a Mega-model.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Keep in mind GF also loads a new lillie model for every time she appears onscreen in sun and moon. They're very inefficient with their coding.

To them, 400 pokemon means 800 models (excluding gender differences, shinies, and forms.), because the dynamax pokemon don't just scale in real time, it loads a different model of the bigger pokemon with the clouds (or scales the model with the clouds).

Experience means nothing if they never learned from their mistake to begin with.

Keep in mind not everything you hear about GF's incompetency is true.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1139581454621523969

(see the other tweets in this thread)

 

[Ropalme1914]

The official reasons that we have for dex cut were:
They needed to work on the animations
For competitive reasons

Anything else, like cartdridge space, were never even implied to have an influence on that

 

[Garrus01]

Yeah they had multiple lillie models because they had ample data space in the 3ds cart. There's no reason to aggressively compress files if they already have enough room.

Cartridge space is not and never was a deciding factor in Dexit.

At the risk of stepping into a hornet's nest, it actually might be a factor. We'll need a full datamine of the game to know if that holds water, though.

 

[Vitton]

I don't know the specifics of Room Service, but I don't think it will see much play in Singles at all. Doubles for Room Service is a different beast entirely. Depending on Speed tiers a mon with middling speed like Tyranitar can outspeed fat TR mons outside and inside Trick Room. It's going to take some interesting speed creeping approaches to make sure mons can both outspeed and outslow TR mons. My prediction is that Room Service will see it's biggest use on Semi TR teams in Doubles or teams that need counter TR measures.

 

[oreofestar]

On the topic of a national dex metagame I don't see how it would be anything else other than gen 8 mechanics with old pokemon back in...I don't see either Z moves nor megas being a part of that metagame as they were clearly never meant to exist in a game with dynamax.

 

[Count Bleck]

Im gonna make a prediction: the national dex meta will in itself show why a culling was necessary in a balancing sense. Dynamax, megas, and z moves on every team? I'll pass.

 

[Ghost Turd]

Corviknight with 60 EVs and 15 IVs:

103/95/115/60/85/85

(The estimatives from the demo were 102/80/98/57/75/80, so there's that, either they changed the base stats or the range between the possible stats is pretty big still. Considering it probably is a bird from the first routes, I would bet on the lower side)

Using the demo stats and the same assumption as you with 15 IVs. I did 60 EVs for each stat since I'm pretty sure the leaker didn't bother to properly EV train Corviknight and at lv. 63, its stats should've been this:

Compared to the leaker's photo:

As you can see, it's not even close to the demo stats... I actually think Smogon’s calculations in the spreadsheet of 100/90/115/60/85/80 is more realistic but I guess we’ll have to wait for the datamines

 

[oreofestar]

Almost all the estimates that have been boosted are too high because they dont take into account the fact that pokemon that high level are going to have EVs just by being in the party at some time. For example the 15IV 0EV calculations for Greedent had it at 467 BST when the early game rodents always have had a BST between 410-425...the potential ranges are extremely large because of the difference EVs make in stats.

 

[MrHands]

Even on the lower end of that estimate Corviknight seems like a good replacement for Skarmory.

The metal bird is dead. Long live the metal bird!

 

[MTB'er Ben]

So about the new item throat spray... it raises SpA using sound based moves. Wonder if it activates before or after using sound moves. Will also be something mainstream on toxtricity and perhaps a niche set for Sylveon, Rillaboom, and maybe Flygon with it's silly 80 base SpA :P Probably missing several more notable examples...

 

[MrHands]

So about the new item throat spray... it raises SpA using sound based moves. Wonder if it activates before or after using sound moves. Will also be something mainstream on toxtricity and perhaps a niche set for Sylveon, Rillaboom, and maybe Flygon with it's silly 80 base SpA :P Probably missing several more notable examples...

Ice moth probably gets Bug Buzz. If it activates prior to an attack like the gems used to then it's basically Bugium Z except... better.

 

[aaronrules380]

Almost all the estimates that have been boosted are too high because they dont take into account the fact that pokemon that high level are going to have EVs just by being in the party at some time. For example the 15IV 0EV calculations for Greedent had it at 467 BST when the early game rodents always have had a BST between 410-425...the potential ranges are extremely large because of the difference EVs make in stats.

Most of the estimates are actually from Pokemon that were just caught from what I heard. Apparently everything in the wild area becomes level 60 in the post game. And some of the estimates (the ones from the battle tower rental teams) we can be fairly confident are spot on because the EVs seem to be very predictable based on the returning mons in those teams and they all have perfect IVs across the board