Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Boom Boom Pow

[akelly96]

I feel really conflicted on Dynamaxing. On one hand it's obviously broken and adds a level unpredictability to the meta that really is unmatched. On the other hand it's really the only new mechanical addition we've gotten this gen. Its typically expected that a new gen simply adds to the number of options and mechanics we can toy around with. This gen it seems like we've really lost a lot of the richness that caused me to enjoy SUMO so much. In this gen we lost more than half the dex, a plethora of good competitive moves, and mega evolutions and Z-moves. Dynamaxing and the new mons are the only thing we got to make up for this massive cut and for that reason I really want to try and keep it. I know complex bans are generally not ideal and shouldn't be brought up lightly but in light of all the losses we've had this gen I think it might be warranted.

The idea I have been spitballing for a complex ban is an item clause on dynamax pokemon. One of the most broken aspects of dynamaxing is that the effects stack with most items. By banning pokemon using held items from dynamaxing you remove a lot of the unpredictability dynamax provides while also providing an interesting tradeoff in team building. No longer can Hawlucha set up it's unburden using dynamax. No longer can choice locked pokemon abuse dynamax to switch attacks. Players will have to consider the trade off between dynamaxing and item holding. The only problem with this idea is the weird interactions it might have with moves like knock off or trick.

Another way to limit dynamaxing's power might be to limit the dynamax level of a given pokemon. The HP boost provided by dynamax is absurd and cutting that down might make them more manageable.

All in all I think any complex ban would be tricky and might not be the best path going forward. Despite being clearly broken there's still a part of me that desperately wants to keep dynamaxing somehow. I won't be upset if/when dynamaxing gets banned but I will feel rather let down that this gen seemingly failed to improve upon the mechanics introduced in prior genes. I'm also not trying to derail the thread, I just feel like a complex ban should be seriously considered for the only new mechanic we got this gen.

 

[Yung Dramps]

It seems everyone wants Dynamax dead.. they hate it, it's broken, they want it banned, etc... what I am afraid of is what the meta will look like once it's banned. Does anyone even wonder? As OP said: it is the core mechanic of the generation, the one way in years the game is bringing us something new to toy with. So what? we just delete it in less than a month? and... what are we left with? A strictly less diverse game than last gens. No megas, half the cast gone, no Z-moves.... this will just feel like a small, scarce, constrained meta. The only new things compared to the past years are like... heavy-duty boots and the ~5 new mons that don't suck competitively. What a revolution. I was really looking forward to some fresh air with Gen 8, and cutting that main mechanic straightaway simply feels like a huge shame. So what if it is makes the game more reliant on your use of your dynamax in order to win? Saying it turns every game into a 50-50 is a flat out exaggeration. Making great use of your Dynamax with a team built around it while maneuvering so as not to let your opponent in a spot to abuse theirs is a true skill, and one that I find a lot of fun. The game changes, take the time to adapt as well! Two weeks is so short...

Please give it more time.

Please do not send us after 1 month to a noveltyless meta that will feel like a poorer version of the past gens.

No ban.

I really wanna pop off, but I'm gonna try to keep things respectful.

We could've had this suspect on a ladder without Dynamax allowed, I'm sure many would've preferred it that way, but we didn't because we evaluate a suspect-worthy element's place and effect on the current metagame, not the nebulous aftermath of a ban that may or may not happen. We haven't the damndest clue to what degree the meta will change after a Dynamax ban, and we shouldn't base our opinions on what that meta will look like. Even if we play by your rules, who says the meta will be a strictly lesser version of what came before? A restricted Pokedex can be seen as its own defining feature, and even in the current meta the altered landscape has allowed Pokemon to rise that didn't have a chance at anything beyond niche pick status back in USUM: Hydreigon, Seismitoad, Rotom-Heat, Togekiss and Conkeldurr come to mind.

On a similar note, you have just dodged the point entirely. Not once in your entire post do you actually make a case for Dynamax not being broken, instead banking on this hypothetical for the crux of your argument. This is where I wanna shout-out Talenheim for actually taking the time to argue at a mechanical level why Dynamax is a healthy addition to the meta, even if I do not agree with them. If every anti-ban post was like theirs, I might actually be unsure as to whether I truly wanted this mechanic gone or not.

For the love of Drampa, stop arguing to keep Dynamax just because it is the defining gimmick of this generation. Remember, Game Freak's official competitive formats are 3v3 singles and 4v4 doubles, likely meaning this mechanic was designed with those formats in mind, not a fan-run 6v6 singles metagame. Taking out Dynamax from this fan-run metagame does not make us lose anything nor go against the creators' wishes because it was likely never intended to be used seriously in this environment to begin with. Instead, make more posts like talenheim's and actually make substantial claims and responses to the pro-ban side of the debate that prove Dynamax is healthy for OU.

 

[earl]

I was decently close to getting reqs (around 77 GXE or so) but then I repeatedly got crushed by various wallbreakers/ditto using Dynamax to break the choice lock. The fact that this mechanic breaks the choice lock totally removes the balancing factor of choice items and is honestly the most disgusting aspect of it by a mile, I want to be able to outplay my opponents and this mechanic simply introduces too much of a guessing game. I have 0 motivation to try again with another alt because it's just so braindead and frustrating to play this dumbfuck meta. Maybe I'll make a fresh alt again later, but regardless please BAN

As for all the people saying it should be kept because it's the generation's "identity", please stop. I don't want my meta to have a quirky "identity", I want it to be playable and actually fun. Less options is not an objectively bad thing.

 

[ausma]

As I've been doing my Reqs, I've started to realize a fundamental flaw in the argument that "Dynamax is the new toy of the generation and as such we should keep it to create flavor." As someone who used to contend it myself, I feel like most of the people who argue this are forgetting that the mechanic won't be outright removed from the simulator despite the consensus, and that there will likely be metagames where you can make use of the mechanic and play with the bullshit it provides. What we're considering here is the fundamental, competitive format of the Smogon tiers as opposed to its existence as a whole. I'm not a moderator of any kind, but I want to remind people who are voting to think about what is most fair and what will most let players' skillsets shine. Dynamax isn't leaving any OMs whether we opt to ban the mechanic or not; what we're considering is how fair it is and how healthy it will be for the base metagame (which is meant to be optimized for players' skill, capability, and creativity).

 

[Jordy]

Please don't bring up any other possible suspect tests in this thread. If anyone does this in the future, your post will be deleted. If you so urgently have an issue with a Pokemon or multiple Pokemon that you can not wait, try to spark some discussion in the OU Metagame Discussion thread, or perhaps PM a council member with your thoughts.

Just to make it clear, this also goes for suggesting alternative ways of testing. This is the way the council has decided to handle Dynamax, so there's nothing to be done about it at this point and it'd just be a pointless discussion as a result.

 

[Jajoken]

My post was deleted so I'll reduce it to a one-liner: be transparent about which alternate ladders where Dynamax will be usable on PS! post-ban and more people will support it. Nat Dex? Ubers? Randoms? AG only? This is more controversial than it needs to be, just assure people that they can use this admittedly fun-but-broken mechanic somewhere on the simulator post-ban. This is a relevant concern for the suspect test.

But I'll also add my opinion on why Dynamax needs to go. There are so many bonus effects tacked onto Dynamax that even if you took one of the major ones away, like HP gain or powered up 100% accurate moves, the mechanic would still be more impactful and centralizing than Mega Evolution or Z Moves. In isolation, few of these effects are game-breaking, but combined together, the entire game hinges on when and how you Dynamax. This means that no matter how long a battle lasts, there are often 3 turns that make the every other turn irrelevant. This alone is enough reason to ditch the whole thing, but I want to highlight two specific mechanics that break the game just on their own.

1. Breaking all forms of move-lock single-handed trivializes countermeasures against offense that have been built up across the past several generations. Choice items are only balanced because there's a huge opportunity cost--you have to predict correctly to make good use of them. If your opponent correctly calls your Tapu Lele to click Specs Psychic and switches into Greninja, the Tapu Lele player loses a huge amount of momentum for their wrong prediction. In this scenario, they absolutely have to switch, which means Greninja is free to set up Spikes, fire off a Specs boosted attack, or even double switch into a favorable matchup for their opponent's Greninja counter, knowing that the Tapu Lele player will almost certainly never click Pyschic again while in on Battle Bond Greninja. Now (if these mons were even in the game), Tapu Lele would be able to Dynamax and click Max Starfall, meaning its actually the Greninja player that loses momentum, as now its in their best interest to switch back out even though they made a good prediction and their opponent didn't. The other great casualty is Encore, which has never been the most popular OU move, but regardless it has seen continued success in punishing players for setting up or clicking an ineffective move. Now? I'm not even sure if the move is worth using. If Whimsicott Encores Charizard into DD, they can literally just keep setting up with impunity until they Dynamax, now with a bunch of boosts backing up their Max moves. By the time they've killed half the team, Encore will be ending. Mechanics that were once highly skill based with massive consequences are now irrelevant as long as the player has yet to Dynamax.
2. Moves that do damage and have a guaranteed chance to trigger a secondary use are some of the most defining moves in competitive play. Clicking any move that does not do damage is traditionally a momentum sink, as your opponent may get a free switch depending on the move, and you run the risk of getting Taunted, the opponent setting up a Sub, or any of the number of other responses you have when you don't risk damage. Rare moves that do have secondary effects are typically gated behind a sub-33% chance or some other downside, like low base power. But even with those downsides, moves which have a guaranteed secondary function have shaped the competitive landscape. Look at U-turn and Volt Switch, some of the most used moves in the game, which do a bit of damage while also switching out. People don't seek out Bug coverage, but U-turn is so frequently used even on non-Bugs just for the fact that it provides a bit of chip while also giving switch initiative. Look at Power-Up Punch, a move with very low power that nonetheless broke Mega Kangaskhan because of its ability to set up +2 while also doing some chip, while also being successfully used on Mega Lopunny. Look at Contrary, an ability so broken that it makes truly awful Pokemon like Serperior into top tier threats, boosting +2 while also doing damage every turn. I haven't talked about Dynamax during this whole section, but you already know where I was going with this: Max Moves break all of these rules. Everyone can use them, they have sky-high base powers, and their effects are absurd. Base 130 STAB move that sets beneficial weather? Busted. Base 130 STAB move that sets beneficial Terrain? Busted. Max Airstream? Super busted. Even the pathetic attempt at balancing Poison and Fighting moves with lower base power power than other Max moves has flopped. Power-Up Punch saw some use at 40 base power, Close Combat being "only" 95 base power while Maxed isn't balanced. Max Moves have turned a handful of important edge cases into a reality that every player will have to deal with every battle, stronger than before. Oh and they break Protect, which means the secondary effect ALWAYS goes off AND do damage regardless.

And you know the rest. Gaining HP to live an attack, phazing immunity, Destiny Bond immunity, weight attack immunity, unmissible moves...mixed together, entire battles will consistently be defined by only 3 turns where all of these effects are activate at once. I still think its a lot of fun, in a broken OM sort of way, but it does not belong in a primary competitive tier. Keep it somewhere meaningful on the simulator, and this may be one of the most widely supported bans in Smogon history.

 

[Jimbon]

the notion of keeping dynamax to preserve generation identity favors a gamestate where entire games can be decided on the 3 turns dynamax is active. one of the main arguments against z-moves in sun/moon was the common situation where on paper counters could be instantly beaten by a tech, only now there is no item sacrifice and these often no drawback moves increase stats at the same time snowballing into eachother. turn to turn happenings fall at the wayside when huge portions of games can be decided so quickly which usually favors the player clicking dynamax at the right time, not the player who has played to gain an advantageous position

i dislike the argument of "banning dynamax forces a more passive metagame", logical tiering philosophy usually dictates that metagame problems should be dealt with. the idea that dynamax is sacred because it's the new toy shouldn't be favor the new generation's longevity and playability

if not banning dynamax, what's the alternative? a metagame where ditto is a necessity on every team, games where single misplays often result in dynamax gyarados / hawlucha / excadrill steamrolls. a metagame where naturally more defensive teams are out of favor because they are so mismatched for offensive teams with multiple potential dynamax users.

a good point someone brought up on one of the discussion threads is the place of ditto and where it will lie when lower tiers stabilise. at the minute it's #3 on the usage stats, meaning if this trend continues lower tiers will not have access to ditto, then what? are we going to tier pokemon by usage but allow ditto as an exception for its unique novelty? are we going to keep dynamax but systematically ban what we deem "too good under dynamax" pokemon in every tier? all of this points to one solution - banning dynamax for the healthiest, most competitive metagame

 

[Finchinator]

As tier leader, I will always desire what is best for my metagame, but I am also aware that tiering decisions are never taken lightly and because of that I must proceed with caution. While I understand arguments about preserving the identity of the generation through the mechanic, we need a stable metagame in place to preserve before we even discuss things at that level. With Dynamax in the metagame, it is as far from stable as any main generation OU tier has been throughout my 8+ years playing competitive Pokemon.

While I went through my main arguments here, here, and here, I just want to say that after getting reqs I am still very much in the pro ban camp. Dynamaxing does not allow for competitive gameplay and that has to be our biggest priority when it comes to suspects and metagame maintenance. Things can be cool, flashy, or fun, but if they interfere with consistent gameplay and the better player coming out on top, then odds are they need to be looked into. Sometimes there are elements of the game that we do not particularly like that we must live with -- such as RNG, the fact that there are so many viable options that covering every match-up is borderline impossible, and the occasional "50/50" type of turn -- but dynamax is something that does take some skill and metagame sense to use while still being uncompetitive and on-the-table to get banned. It is the perfect candidate for this suspect and a large reason why the metagame is as hectic as it currently is. To elaborate, I believe that Dynamaxing takes skill to use properly as it can be used offensively or defensively, it can be used to take the lead or prevent the opponent from doing so, etc... it is a very versatile mechanic when it comes to practical application and I feel that as players we have adapted to this well, making use of it in countless ways in order to create gameplans and prevent opposing gameplans. While this may sound healthy on the surface, the fact of the matter is that it unfortunately takes all of these healthy elements to extremes and makes the game far less competitive than ever before. The unpredictability coupled with the sheer effectiveness with regards to power and secondary effects does not allow for stable gameplay. Overall, dynamaxing is an unwelcome presence in our metagame because of this. I will be voting ban.

In addition, everyone who gets reqs will have their post edit when I confirm the legitimacy of their reqs and I will like their post in the voter identification thread to notify them that it is confirmed. Please do not ladder between when you post reqs and when I confirm -- you can continue laddering on that alt once it is confirmed.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Get this overcentralizing coin flip mechanic out of OU. I’m sorry, but teams shouldn’t resort to the same exact core and Ditto in hopes to keep it in check. Setup is made bafflingly easy thanks to the buffs each moves gives (Gyarados and Hawlucha say hi, but even more exist to abuse it), the power lines up scarily with Hyper Beam, but actually good, and the fact that said Dynamaxed Pokémon can just ignore specific mechanics and moves that would even affect Mega Evolutions (specifically Phazing and Haze) means even stall tactics are no good. Details were very well given by the OU Council, y’all did a fantastic job laying it out.

Oh, and ignoring the negative effect of Choice Items? No. Ban this mechanic and let it lay waste in Ubers where it belongs.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

*Issues/Thoghts: The first major statement listed, that there are too many options for any given trainer to practically deal with, is one that I both agree and disagree with. In the context I used in my above summary, where any given trainer should be expected to recognize the necessary options, I agree; the bulk of trainers who play Currentgen OU, who understand the metagame but have no wishes to enter tournaments bar the occasional roomtour, cannot be expected to recognize all available options to both them and the opponent, and unlike previous gens, the punishments have greater potential. In the context of a Trainer's raw potential, I disagree; it is possible to recognize all necessary options, and derive possible sets, coverage moves, hazard carriers, and lures, to the same degree as the previous generations, where pressure and close analysis of the opponent's play in the first few turns will be enough to fill in most major holes, and where deviations from a correct analysis sacrifice enough team effectiveness to allow it to be properly dealt with or played around, and punished. However, doing so requires much greater focus and effort than it has in previous gens, and will likely only be achieved at tournament-level play.

Because Pokemon is timed, there's a definite window in how much players can account for. Introducing any additional factors must come at a cost. If you now have to use some of your time to account for the possibilities introduced by the option to Dynamax, it's going to have to come from somewhere, and that's going to be from calculating all the less immediate possibilities further down the game's decision tree. This wouldn't be a concern if players were pushing the envelope in terms of calculation, and from the way some players don't use their timers, you might be led to believe this is already the case, but it's not; every generation has progressively raised the baseline requirements to succeed at Pokemon to the point where few individuals, if any, are consistently hitting its skill ceiling and realizing the "raw potential" you mention. I don't necessarily like rejecting anything that adds more depth to a game, but at some point, we have to be pragmatic; any game can continuously inflate its baseline requirements and become a more rigorous test of whatever skills it purports to measure, but they don't, because then it becomes too difficult for anyone to be consistent.

*As for the second statement, my personal experience is that Dynamaxing is commonly used to deal with Dynamaxing because it retains the same flexibility of utilization that offensive dynamaxes have; most teams do not intend for counter-dynamaxing to be their only major way of dealing with opposing Dynamaxes, but instead of being forced to focus their play on their answers, they are given the freedom to play the momentum game, to further their own strategy without relinquishing too much control to their opponent. In terms of the 50/50s, I still believe that enough external information can be gathered to weigh them in similar fashion as the other 50/50s that can exist.
*One last thing: I wish for a clarification on this quote: "...and the one-time aspect of Dynamaxing means that no information can be gathered within the scope of a single battle to help inform a player's decision." Could there be clarification as to what type or types of info are being referred to? In its current state, the quote seems to claim that it's impossible to gather any relevant information regarding Dynamaxing, which I consider to be straight-out false; I doubt that that was the message you wanted to portray.

In the context of risk management, Dynamax is not intrinsically unique just because it's a special mechanic; it's unique because it occupies an otherwise mostly barren extreme of the risk/reward scale. Whereas typical decisions tend to carry with them costs and payoffs of at most a single Pokemon, this is frequently Dynamax's minimum reward, scaling up to two or three Pokemon, if not entire teams. Treating it like any other high-reward option fails to capture how differently players respond to decisions of this magnitude, which you yourself acknowledge, because your response to TDK ascribed special distinction to lastmon vs. lastmon scenarios. The ability to snowball from properly-timed Dynamaxes frequently forces scenarios on this same level, and you can only extrapolate so much from decisions that operate on far smaller stakes. I might relax my original statement to be less absolute, but the sentiment still stands: I believe there tends to be an unacceptably low amount of information that can be gathered to reasonably inform play around the 50/50s that arise from Dynamax.

 

[hmsa2012]

It saddens me, as someone who also is a console player, that Dynamax is being suspect tested. It isn't because that Dynamax is just a new mechanic introduced in a new promising generation, but rather another mechanic that Gamefreak yet guts Single players and cater towards VGC and Doubles Players (ie 20 minute timer).

Getting off track a bit. Yes, I believe Dynamax is broken because it causes an over centralization within team building itself. Ditto being 1/3 of all teams in OU is a harmful sign that something is clearly wrong with the tier itself. The fact that Dynamax can shift the momentum for 3 turns is already absurd enough, but if played correctly, an opposing player can use a Pokemon such as Ditto, and completely counter and punish the player severely for a mechanism that may be deemed "balanced" at the surface.

Choice-locked Pokemon should never have the benefit of Dynamax and punish opponents even if it was locked in a move that can be considered mid-ground plays (G-Darmanitan and Ditto are the prime example of abusing this mechanic).

Lastly, the secondary effects of Max Moves (Max Air-Stream, Knuckle, and Lightning) can turn a single Pokemon into a one mon team itself (Hawlucha with Seed, Gyarados with DD+ Airstream/Water Move).

My opinion is that it should be banned for the sake of balanced and opportunistic play style approach everyone can enjoy in a new metagame. I made a more detailed video on my opinion on the matter. You don't have to listen to it, but it helps to understand where my opinion comes from.

 

[BlueLobster]

Dynamax is a very broken mechanic that needs to be banned for the good of the tier. There are 3 main reasons I think this:

1. Most games go down to whoever used dynamax better
This is obviously a major problem for so many reasons, but mostly because you have 3 turns that basically decide if you win the game or not a large proportion of the time. This means that long term strategy, which is basically what has been the basis of mons for 7 generations, is pretty much irrelevant, making a meta where skill is much less of a factor, which is something we should try to avoid. I'm not saying skill is not a factor, as using dynamax well requires some level of skill, but it's very easy to fluke and not as prevalent as it should be in a competitive meta.

2. Building teams is a nightmare

I think we can all agree covering threats is a huge part of teambuilding. This is near impossible with the amount of threats who can beat every check by clicking dynamax. Half the things you want to use as blanket checks either can't kill through dyna or die bc of it, you can't rely on outplaying choiced mons bc they dyna and kill you, and your reliable revenge killers are limited to ditto bc you have shit like barra and exca setting their own weather. Every team feels disjointed or loses to something on matchup just to handle the broken shit running around that becomes entirely manageable once dyna is removed. I also wanna make the point here that it isn't the mons, you can ban the mons and something else will take their place (personally been enjoying DD dyna Mew myself, which is one of many who could replace the currently spammed dynas like gyara), because we're not short on things that can make dyna an autowin button (aka anything with a setup move, max airstream, or really any ability to sweep in any way) which proved dyna is the problem and not X thing with dyna.

3. Max moves are honestly so fucked

Summoning weather, terrain, boosting stats all while hitting the opp with a ~130 BP move? Like that's way more fucked than Z moves were, and you get them for 3 turns while at 200% HP. Really if anyone has an actual defense to this I'd like to see it. I don't see any meta being balanced while you've got Lucha setting it's terrain, speed in weather ability sweepers and shit setting their environment while killing something. Gyara can simulate a DD as it kills, even fucking corviknight can become kinda fast with a couple airstreams. Put simply, max moves make a huge number of mons terrifying very quickly, and it's massively unhealthy.

Didn't want to make a huge post bc I don't think there's a realistic chance of dyna remaining, but yea ban this shit
Edit: Would just like to mention I would completely support a dynamax OU ladder existing in a similar way to natdex, it is kinda fun to sweep with and keeping it usable in a similar way to AG for megaray in previous gens would be cool, as long as it's not in a competitive setting

 

[SolaceAcheron]

I'd like to voice my opinion of Dynamax and why I would vote BAN on this mechanic here and in the future (I may try to go for reqs later), and I'll dissect all points for and against.

Dynamax is clearly the most controversial mechanic ever introduced in Pokemon. First, we had Mega Evolutions, which while they balanced weaker Pokemon, also broke stronger individual Pokemon and created what I call the "UUBL" problem in Gen 6 and 7, in which countless mons build up in UUBL due to being broken in lower tiers. Next, we had Z-Moves, which created a 1-time nuke move, some of which made unviable moves on Pokemon viable. It too had similar effects as Megas on the meta, but was generic: it made all Pokemon slightly better rather than a select few. I'm going to skip Let's Go's Candy mechanic for now, but I will discuss it later.

Now, we have Dynamax, which is Game Freak's latest gimmick that attempts to combine aspects of both Megas and Z-moves into 1 mechanic. I'm not going to go over the specifics of details, but I'll go over points for and against, and counter those anti-arguments.

1) Dynamax is Broken Because of The Auto-Secondary Effects. This is the main problem with Dynamax and why it is superior to Z-moves. While we saw a small snippet of these kinds of secondary effects with specialized Z moves such as Kommonium-Z or Mewnium-Z, which created secondary effects, and the amount of sheer usability they gave to individual Pokemon. Now picture that kind of brute power but on every Pokemon. People tend to focus only on Max Airstream for being the true broken factor, but I say that it's MANY of the Dmax and even some of the Gmax moves and their effects that can change the entire course of a game. While Fighting and Poison types have a BP reduction, the fact they can set up offensive sets for during and after Dynamax is nearly as broken. Fire, Water, Ice, and Rock can set up weather which either effectively doubles the power of STAB moves, provides chip damage, or even provide doubling boosts for their respective abilities, meaning they don't even need Weather setters for themselves. Of course, Max Airstream is the most busted of all, providing a Speed Boost, letting Pokemon like Gyarados, Hawlucha, Corviknight, Togekiss dominate OU. It should be mentioned that only special Z moves in the past had these kinds of effects; Now, every Pokemon has access to these kinds of special Z moves.

2) Dynamax Disrupts Offense by Doubling HP. Interestingly, this isn't talked about as much as it should be. But the literal doubling of HP temporarily lets every Pokemon experience a free Power Construct for 3 turns, meaning moves that normally could kill will fail to. I've seen people use their Dmax on mons like Toxapex to prevent opponents from KOing it, and using the move to scout out and waste the opponents Dmax. While Pokemon with Z moves have a huge power boost, they retain the same HP as regular, meaning they keep the same chance as usual to fire off a 1 time, Dynamax gives every Pokemon usually 1 or more opportunities to fire off Z-move-like nukes, which as described above, are more broken than most regular Z moves.

3) Three Turns is Far Too Long. Three turns allows Dynamax to boost at least once, regardless of Max Guard. In most situations, players don't Dynamax at the same time, meaning only one of the three turns can be blocked by Max Guard. Regular Protect doesn't work either, because while it stops MOST of the damage, it allows the secondary effects to occur. Even predicting Dmax moves to inflict as little damage as possible still means that abusers can set up weather, terrain, and stats for sweeping down the road.

4) Dynamax is Already showing Centralizing effects. I just need to mention that Ditto has top 10 usage. Ditto has never made usage in ANY competitive tier, especially OU. Many people often say that "Ditto is only as good as the rest of the tier" and its usage is showing that this tier...is VERY strong. Togekiss also has made OU simply because it can abuse the Dmax mechanic.

Now, from what I've seen, there are several points against banning Dynamax, mainly these: 1) There is no precedent for banning an entire generation mechanic 2) Dmax is fine right now 3) Why not ban broken mons instead? 4) Only Dynamax is Broken, not Gigantiamax. 5) Dynamax checks Dynamax. Now watch as I rip these to the ground.

1) There IS a Precedent for Banning a Mechanic: Ah time for the hatred to rain in. While you were all still playing with Lando-T and Magearna in 2018, I was off to try out Pokemon Let's Go's metagame. I was a staunch defender of the Candy mechanic, and I strongly believed that it was integral to what made Pokemon Let's Go special compared to gen 7. However, not only was it quickbanned, but I soon realized that it was a good ban. Keeping Candies would have meant a stall-like, centralized hell of a metagame where nothing dies and Eevee dominates all battles. Banning this mechanic meant that Let's Go could show us some limited growth that it would have not seen otherwise, such as the emergence of Dugtrio-A, Poliwrath, and Charizard-X as viable possibilities. Is LGPE the most centralized game in history? Yes. Is it a poor example? Yes. But it's a metagame that became better after its defining gimmick was banned.

Also Dmax is currently being banned in OM's right now. There's your precedence.

2) Dynamax May be Fine Now....But What About the Future? People tend to only look at the "now" when determining whether something is broken, rather than looking about both now AND the future. When Pokemon Home launches, Pokemon such as Blastoise (Shell Smash), an improved Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Coballion, Virizion, Terrakion, Keldeo, Kyurem, Decidueye, Primarina, Necrozma, Zeraora, and Melmetal all have OU potential. Some of these mons will be banned because of their raw strength (Terak, Keldeo, Coball, Zeraora), but others will become tedious and centralizing with a Dmax Mechanic. Mew will be able to set up....anything, using its near endless movepool from Home. Jirachi will be able to set up Defense using Max Steel. Virizion can set up Speed and Attack with Bounce and Close Combat (same with the others). Decidueye can finally make use of Brave Bird, boosting its speed and becoming a massive threat. Necrozma can boost with Dragon Dance and power up with Dmax Mindstorms secondary effect, creating Psychic Terrain. Melmetal can abuse both Dmax and Gmax with decent coverage options.

My point is, this problem will only get worse. If Game Freak decides to move this mechanic to future games, this problem will continue. See my next point.

3) Banning Individual Mons that Abuse Dynamax Does NOT fix the Problem. There's 2 problems with the "just ban Pokemon instead" argument. First, banning mons that abuse Dmax now only opens the door for underused abusers such as Charizard, Crawdaunt, Mew, Kommo-o, and others to enter the tier and continue making things somewhat of a hassle. Something will ALWAYS be the best Dmax abuser. Secondly, banning OU mons does not fix the issues of lower tiers and Dynamax, which I assume will quickban Dynamax on their own, or when this succeeds.

4) Any G-Max Pokemon with D-Max Moves Can Still Abuse Them. Do I really need to talk about this? It's pretty obvious the entire mechanic has to go, despite GMax being slightly inferior. Moving on...

5) Dynamax does NOT check Dynamax. Ask yourself...would Primal Groudon in Gen 7 OU check other Primal Groudon? Of course not...Primal Groudon breaks everything else. Similar logic can be applied here, just not as extreme. A broken Pokemon can NOT be a check for itself; such a check inherently only adds to its brokenness and should not be applied in ANY suspect test.

There are cases in OU currently where certain Dmax Pokemon cannot check others. Ditto has risen to prominence because it is the closest thing to a check. But not only will opposing Ditto fail to check the first Ditto, even Ditto has a copy it cannot beat. Hawlucha gains its Unburden boost through losing an item, something that would be an extraordinarily strange and rare circumstance, especially after copying an opposing Hawlucha.

These are my thoughts. It's a lot. One last thing for everyone, it's important to mention that this issue should have NOTHING to do with Game Freak's Dexit policy or the quality of Sw/Sh.

Happy reqs everyone

 

[IDW]

I tried and tried to come up with a good rationalization for keeping Dynamax and I don’t think there is one.

I think that the story of ditto is a good indicator of how unhealthy dynamax is for the meta. Ditto is really a last resort check to overwhelming setup sweepers and is useless against every other kind of pokemon. The ability imposter only ever remotely considered in tiers where ludicrous setup is the norm (such as BH and Ubers in past gens). If Dynamax as a mechanic was truly balanced Ditto might see some usage to deal with it, I think 5-15% would be reasonable. However we see that in high ladder usage stats it is the most used Pokemon with Usage nearly equaling Landorus-T in gens 6 and 7. Even on the overall ladder its usage is more than twice the 15% threshold I mentioned earlier. Again, Ditto is only a reasonable choice for a counter when literally nothing else works and that’s the way the meta is right now.

The only way I think Dyanamx can be justified is if there are ways besides ditto to deal with Pokemon like Gyarados and Baraskewda. This is not the case now and If anything the meta is drifting towards more Pokemon that are best countered by ditto (see emerging threats like togekiss and mew). I don’t think that there is some underlying principle of the meta that moves it away from dynamax sweepers and has been overlooked by thousands of players playing nonstop for 2 weeks. The only way we can be certain that ditto’s usage will go down is to ban Dynamax.

 

[The Legend 8]

I think Dynamax should be banned. But the reasoning in a majority of posts is improper in my opinion. I disagree with the post of TKD and a many of the following posts. However i agree with a lot of finchinators arguments, he really bothered about this topic. The effects of Dynamax don't have to be repeated again, so here is my practical view.
I don't think Dynamax is that much more "random" or unpredictable than a regular move. In fact, it's even easier to predict than a z-move.
The mechanic basically makes early game a positioning game. This adds a tactical layer, which the earlier versions didn't have. The result can be, either you win, you lose, or you continue with the regular game. Eventually it comes down to if you like this or not. I don't like this, because the first half centralizes, limits the teambuilding, and often it's too decisive for the overall match.

PS: Sry for bad english.

 

[TiyaTiya]

I’m by no means a competitive player, and I’ve been aware that there is a competitive Pokemon scene since gen 5. My highest ranking was like 1400ish in gen 7 so yeah I’m pretty casual. I’m probably going to be the least experienced/skilled player in this thread but I still want to give my opinion.

I’ll start by saying that I want dynamax banned and use what I think are core parts of competitive battling to strengthen my argument :(.

In game design, balance is the concept and the practice of tuning a game's rules, usually with the goal of preventing any of its component systems from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers. (from Wikipedia)

In Pokemon, the first part of competitive battling is not even battling, but teambuilding.

In the current SwSh meta, we have quite a handful of new and old options. Also, the meta is still shifting so there will be significant changes to come if new and powerful sets are discovered.

Now, on the topic of team building, I believe that my team’s purpose and wincon should always come first. Maybe others feel the same way, but with dynamaxing, that’s changing.

It’s no coincidence that Ditto, one of the most reliable dynamax counters, rises in popularity as rankings go up. At the highest ratings, Ditto has a 44% usage rate. This suggests that people are thinking more about a reliable answer to dynamax.

After all, slapping Ditto on a team is easy.

Some people think that banning dynamax will ruin variety and choice, but I believe the opposite will happen. For one, it allows more playstyles to be open especially since we will have 6 slots instead of 5 (Ditto).

I’ll offer a different perspective on predicting/outplaying the other player and the risk/reward system that comes with it.

Weather setting and terrain setting which I see as negative tempo moves.

Usually to set weather or terrain, you needed an ability or move on a pokemon. This sacrifices a turn or two but in return rewards you with whatever benefits the weather or terrain provides.

The temporary nature of weathers/terrains creates a back and forth between players which can be manipulated, and weather/terrain are balanced by the fact that you need to switch out (and probably switch back in) in order to maximize their potency.

Dynamax trivializes the future investment of weather/terrain because it can give that effect on a powerful move and the dynamaxing player can ignore the risks and rewards of setting up the benefits.

The best example would be Barraskewda. When dynamaxed, its Max Geyser does heavy damage, sets rain for more damage boost and activates swift swim. With one move, the Barraskewda would have likely KOed or heavily damaged a Pokemon, and activated a temporary speed + damage boost.

Compare this to say a normal process.

Switch in to Pelipper for Drizzle

Switch out to Barraskewda who will probably take damage

Swift Swim kicks in

Like many have already stated, dynamax trivializes many aspects of the predicting/reading parts of Pokemon battling.



We don’t need a gimmick that ignores important parts of competitive battling.

 

[PimpParasect]

So I was originally pro-dyna, and then lingered on the fence.

Honest to God, this mechanic has proven to be less and less managable the more I played, and the more I spectate. There's a reason there's no good replays to justify keeping it out there, because those replays either a: prove the mechanic just bullshitted a win for somebody, or b: prove that the mechanic at some point gave an advantage that the opponent couldn't recover from or c: proved that whatever the counter measure was, it was something highly unconventional or relied on using the mechanic itself.

While there are ways to stall dynamax turns with the use of max guard, substitute, and really risky immunity switching, the biggest problem is the lingering affects the max moves give. You can sub to stall a gyarados sweep, but Max airstream is still going to give him +1 speed, or you can use protect to significantly reduce the incoming damage from a Max knuckle, but the user will still get +1 attack to maul your team with, you can swap in a water type to tank a Max Geyser, but whoops it got rain up which is the equilavent to +1 for any rain sweeper on the opponent's team, you can't beat the dynamax's mon 1v1 anyway, and the health pool ensures whatever your answer to it is won't actually kill it majority of the time.

The biggest complaint I have though, is accounting for how many viable dynamax abusers there are in teambuilder... you can adapt an entire team comp to handle a gyarados, but if they bring in a dyna durant, hawlucha, hydreigon, etc you get swept. If you prepare for even 3 dynamax pokemon, you still heavily run the risk of being more vurnable to other abusers, and dynamax isn't a limited mechanic either, its not like mega evolution where you can pinpoint exactly what the opponent's team is built around, you can still run multiple abusers of dynamax on the same team without handicapping your composition incase plan A doesn't work, sweep with plan B, C, or D-itto. This is why the option of banning certain abusers (what I was very adamant about doing) isn't an option because one of the scariest problems right now isn't even the few abusers themselves, its the threat of them existing as well as the threat of other potential abusers to account for.

Its too restraining to account for all threats, the only exception is the g-max mons, which can be viewed as inferior to their dynamax version in most cases (can we really make an arguement that g-centiskorch and g-zard is ban worthy? G-sandaconda? I get maybe G-butterfree, G-pee, and G-eebuiee rely on too much RNG, but I hardly see these as legitimate problems that can't be naturally teambuilt to deal with without being too restrictive or random, even with the D-max moves..). I do wish we started with a dyna ban and then looked at g-max in a more funneled environment without dyna putting it in its shadow, but dyna primarily the topic and needs to go.

 

[Dragonpetim]

Dynamax is the mechanic in gen 8. Have we removed the Z-Moves and Mega from their generation? It is obvious that the match will be determined by Dynamax, after all the same happened with the mega. The game revolved around a single pokemon capable of devastating the enemy team. Pokemon has always been like this.

 

[Finchinator]

Dynamax is the mechanic in gen 8. Have we removed the Z-Moves and Mega from their generation? It is obvious that the match will be determined by Dynamax, after all the same happened with the mega. The game revolved around a single pokemon capable of devastating the enemy team. Pokemon has always been like this.

You are not only comparing apples and oranges at the start of your post, but you are also drawing incorrect conclusions during the later part of your post. Pokemon has not always revolved around single Pokemon, let alone single concepts/mechanics. While Z moves were important last generation, they were only over 1 turn and only 1 Pokemon could have them, making them a lot easier to handle. Mega evolutions were similarly limited to one pre-determined Pokemon per team, they took up an item slot, and even then a couple of mega evolutions have proved to be banworthy over the years. Dynamax is less predictable, more devastating, and far less competitive overall. Your perspective is limited and flat-out incorrect at points.

 

[churine]

The most troubling parts of Dynamax are the extra bulk and the effects provided by the Max Moves in tandem with the fact that every Pokemon in the OU metagame is able to use it. It's already pretty easy for a Dynamaxing Pokemon to accumulate stat boosts and weather/terrain effects to boost their performance, especially with Max Fighting and Flying, but since their HP is doubled upon Dynamaxing, it makes setting up these boosts from Max Moves far easier than it would be otherwise. Pokemon that would have otherwise subpar bulk, suddenly be able to live attacks from threats they otherwise would not get past and either potentially transform into an unstoppable threat with Max Fighting, Flying, and Water, mitigate the foes damage even more with Max Dragon and Bug, or tear holes in defensive walls with Max Ghost and Dark. This snowball potential means that Dynamax leans better with more offensive Pokemon as a couple boosts from Max Moves can often be the end of the game, whereas defensive Dynamaxing is more reactionary, often towards opposing Dynamax. More importantly, this lean towards offense means whoever can switch in the right Pokemon to Dynamax at the right time before their opponent can do so, is likely to win the game, which mostly throws the idea of a long-term gameplan out the window if the person has an opportunity to steamroll the game mindlessly in front of them.

The fact that every Pokemon can Dynamax means that there is a far greater list of potential and even viable Dynamax abusers than what we can expect people to reasonably prepare for. This puts a huge burden on teambuilding as a whole as one might prepare answers for common abusers like Gyarados or Hawlucha, but the opponent instead Dynamaxes a different Pokemon on their team such as Kommo-o or Corviknight or some other Pokemon. If we were to ban the perceived problematic Pokemon with Dynamax instead of the mechanic, there would be constant suspect tests, bans, and shifts to the metagame as the banned Pokemon get replaced or fulfilled by other Pokemon, creating a metagame more unstable than last gen lower tiers, only further showcasing the Dynamax mechanic is problematic, not the abusers. As with suspects in the past, especially ones pertaining to Shadow Tag and Arena Trap (people ran Shed Shell for no reason other than to avoid being trapped), restrictions on teambuilding is one of the most common attributes to a banworthy element, and Dynamax definitely falls here; people have started to believe Ditto is an obligatory addition to prevent as a blanket check to Dynamax sweepers as a whole.

This isn't even mentioning how Dynamax allows Choice Item users like Darmanitan-G to bypass their lock to an unassuming switch-in like Toxapex, and just launch a Max Quake and KO it, or how there is no prerequisite (such as a held item, move, or turn count) to undergo Dynamax like with Mega Evolution or Z-moves previously. This mechanic is so laughably absurd in how easy it is for a player to set up a win, in how many threats can abuse the mechanic making it nearly impossible to prepare for all of them, and that it can be performed from at any time from turn 1 or with anything, that it needs to exit. BAN Dynamax from the metagame.

 

[TapuBuluFool]

Hmm. Reading through both the OU and suspect thread helps me understand my lack of awareness that the majority wants from a competitive Pokemon game. I regret not witnessing the debate when megas and Z-moves were introduced. It definitely would provide more details on why the collective mindset is vehemently opposed to Dynamax. The arguments listed on why it's uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame doesn't make sense to me at all. Every match I've played involved the same ole Pokemon strategies I've used for the past 4 generation except with a dramatic twist. I've experienced these 50/50 situations, learned from the scenario and adjusted my playstyle. I've studied new moves and tactics to combat Dynamax's short term volatility while still attempting to promote my own gameplan. I've adapted to Dynamax timings to mitigate the impact done through sheer experience of playing. Like, all concepts I've applied to every other video game that I played with a strong desire to win (competitively) is what I applied here.

Despite that, there's something I'm missing about how the Smogon community envisions competitive Pokemon. Yes, I agree that Dynamax is a HUGE deal! The metagame is definitely centralized on using this resource correctly but I personally never found it to be an auto win button. Everyone's argument seems to focus on very compartmentalized aspects surrounding Dynamax. It summons weather, provides an unstoppable boost and allows users to freely switch moves. I get it but I have to firmly reiterate it's nowhere near the auto win button people make it out to be. After the first 5 days, I've never been mindlessly swept by Dynamax alone. No, it doesn't matter which Pokemon it is because my understanding is that you create strategies to fight the mechanic, not the specific Pokemon. (Side tangent but why is Dynamax immediately looked at instead of specific Pokemon? It's mentioned that once you ban an abuser, another one will just crop up. That reason is not good enough because in a Dynamax-less meta, we'll use the same exact method to remove problematic pokemon.)

The most impressionable argument I've read is that games are played at a tactical level vs a strategical one. Teambuilding is not irrelevant but it does take a backseat compared to executing your playstyle. People have genuinely criticized that as a negative component of the metagame, mostly under the guise of short-term vs long-term strategy. With that revelation, I understand where the "unpredictability/random" rhetoric is coming from. There's no way you can 100% (or even 75%) prepare for Dynamax through teambuilder alone. This meta requires an entirely different skillset that's not accepted by the general community.

Weirdly enough, strong tactical gameplay was prominent in gen 4 where team preview didn't exist. It's an overreach to compare Dynamax to secret teams but the analogy exist for those willing to think about the core issue at hand. Various problems people are complaining about now is attributable to gen 4 (mostly unpredictability). At the end of the day, I'll play Pokemon through Smogon no matter what the ruling is. Having a hard time facing reality that Dynamax only lasted for a month...

 

[Dreadfury]

Thank you for reading through this in advance. If you can't tell, I may or may not be salty because I keep on missing reqs because I'm getting my ass blasted by the very thing I'm trying to vote to ban.

So I've been trying to get voting reqs (for what it's worth; Dynamax is 100% getting banned at this point considering how many people hate it so my vote doesn't really influence) but it's been a fucking shit-show. I guess I'll leave my general thoughts on the mechanic here:

Objectively speaking, I genuinely cannot see a single legitimate reason for this mechanic to remain legal in this tier (and even moreso in lower tiers where it's arguably even more toxic because we "stole" Ditto as one of the few reliable "checks" to Dynamaxing from the lower tiers). I'm all for a more offensively-inclined tier - I was Zygarde's biggest defender last gen, for fuck's sake - but Dynamaxing simply limits non-offensive options to such an oppressive degree that it has no business remaining legal in OU.

I'd hardly argue that it's the only thing distinguishing this generation from the others when we have fucking G-Darm acting as the craziest speed control we've ever had access to, Dragapult utilizing any of its dozen-plus viable sets/variations, no Heatran or Garchomp doing their things, etc. This generation is still going to be plenty unique without a mechanic that contributes nothing but layers upon layers of mindgames and which has virtually no counterplay besides itself and very specific revenge killers tailored to counter it (which can in turn be countered by just playing around them).

Dynamaxing puts too much emphasis on just three turns. At best you managed to stall out your opponent's most vicious win condition with either extremely careful and lucky switches into heavily resisted or immune hits, some level of Paralysis RNG, or blowing your own best win condition just to prevent you from getting steamrolled. Dynamax is a literal "broken checking broken" situation, after all: its best counterplay is itself used defensively, which is in and of itself unhealthy and promotes a very toxic metagame...

...but if you weren't super precise with your switches, if you weren't super lucky, or if you didn't (or, rather, couldn't because it offers so much less defensively than offensively) blow your Dynamax for defensive use against a Dynamax you're probably going to end up getting absolutely steamrolled by a Corviknight that boosted its physical stats all the way up with Bulk Up suddenly boosting its Speed all the way up to +3 and then mauling your team with strong Brave Birds or disgustingly strong Power Trips. Or maybe a Gyarados that effectively got three free Dragon Dances off for clicking a 130 base power Flying move after already setting up a Dragon Dance, or a Gyarados that got to +4/+2 after setting up into getting a kill with Max Airstream into getting Grassy Terrain up with Max Overgrowth into getting the rain up with Max Geyser and after Dynamax is hitting so absurdly hard with its two spammable moves that they may as well be Max Moves as well. Or maybe a Nasty Plot Hydreigon that decided to Dynamax and blow your Balance squad up. Or maybe a Hawlucha that set its own Electric Terrain to activate Unburden and effectively remove Ditto as a viable option to check it followed by getting +2 Attack for free with two Max Knuckles or +2 Speed with two Airstreams so no Barraskewda will ever have any hope of revenge killing you. And what about Barraskewda itself? It can do all that too, plus set its own Rain and activate Swift Swim for maximum overkill sweeping. Or maybe Excadrill? Or Hatterene? Or what about revenge killing a boosted sweeper with Ditto into turning it into its own Dynamax sweeper and winning with the very same cancer your opponent tried beating you with?

Now let's move onward to the next issue with Dynamaxing: Ditto. You know what this pink shit-stain is because you've probably had to either play like a degenerate to not let it ream you or you got reamed by it because it stole your broken sweeper. This thing having anywhere near 30% usage (or, at the top of the ladder, 40% usage) should in and of itself be an enormous red flag. Ditto is by definition a product of its surroundings, but it being not just viable but almost mandatory on half of all high-ranking teams is incredibly toxic. Ditto having high usage can mean one of two things: either the metagame is so ridiculously offensive that you need a blanket revenge killer to deal with 50% of the tier's insane sweepers while the other 50% have to specifically adapt to Ditto's omnipresence, or the metagame is so ridiculously bulky that everything becomes a PP stall war and Ditto's theoretically-infinite PP becomes necessary to win a stall war. And let me tell you; I most certainly don't see much Stall in this metagame when Dracovish, LO Clefable, and G-Darm are running around everywhere and OHKOing or 2HKOing everything. Ditto having high usage is an immediate indication that there is a highly broken element present within this metagame and its abnormally high usage relative to past metagames should be plenty of reason in and of itself to ban the broken element in question.

Finally, Dynamaxing can't even be scouted for properly like Z-Moves or Mega Stones could: you have absolutely no way of knowing which member of the team your opponent will Dynamax (you can guess which ones they won't, I suppose, but that's a very small and very obvious list) and they can pop it at literally any point during the match. A single well-timed Dynamax can immediately turn a 6-0 into a reverse 6-0, and that is not an exaggeration in any sense. You realistically cannot ban the mechanic's most broken abusers because anything can abuse Dynamax to an absurd degree. If we ban Gyarados and Hawlucha then Tyranitar and Corviknight will take their places; if we ban Tyranitar and Corviknight then Excadrill and Dragapult will take their places. The tier is tiny enough as is right now; the last thing we need is to ban half of it because they all abuse a broken mechanic to some degree. And once we've banned half the existing OU tier for being too good at abusing Dynamax suddenly the likes of Charizard and Drednaw will tear through the metagame with their Dynamax (or in Drednaw's case Gigantamax) sets doing all the same broken shit the stuff we banned did. Eventually we'll end up back to square one.

Dynamaxing is an inherently toxic element to a metagame that has a lot of potential for creativity without it. It is overcentralizing to a degree that would make Gen 6/7 Aegislash jealous. It is broken to a degree that would make Gen 6 Mega Salamence, who tore this tier a new asshole for about a week, jealous. Its counterplay is far too limited in nature, and one of the few options one can even consider "counterplay" is the very same broken mechanic that needs to be countered in the first place. It is for all these reasons that, if I can actually manage to meet the reqs, I will 100% vote to BAN DYNAMAX. My mind was made up basically as soon as the mechanic was properly implemented on Showdown, and the more I play this tier in this state the more I grow to hate what Dynamaxing does to it.

 

[Jonathan St-Yves]

Mega Evolution had weaknesses like the required Item and was restricted to certain mons. Some megas who were too powerful like Salamence and Gengar were banned due to their power. Dynamax makes everyone have this power but some abuse it more than others.

I see many people in this thread talking in terms of power or weakness, and this is a bit derailing in my opinion.

Saying Dynamax is overpowered doesn't frame the problem in the right way. The problem with overpowered Pokemon is that they effectively reduce the number of viable options and by extension the strategic depth since some choices are almost self-evident. This is not the case with Dynamax, quite the contrary even.

When I first heard about Dynamax, I figured it was an extra option available during the game and thus something that could make it more strategic. The fact that it is powerful didn't seem to matter: both players can use it however they choose. Maybe some mons are too good of a combination with the mechanic, just ban these outliers.

However, the main problem doesn't reside in outliers. So many good combos exist that the options remain open. No, actually the main issue *is* the number of options. At any given moment you have to be prepare for so many possibilities that it becomes difficult to make an educated guess. On top of that, guessing wrong often means game over.

So the issue isn't just that Dynamax is too strong. The issue it is too impactful combined with being unpredictable.

Mega-evolution is a good counterexample. At the start of the game, you often already know which Pokemon on the opposing team is going to pull the mega card. The restrictions of the mechanic make it predictable and you can plan your match around that. There are almost no restriction with Dynamax, making it unpredictable and resulting in a guessing game.

 

[CasualPokePlayer]

1) There IS a Precedent for Banning a Mechanic: Ah time for the hatred to rain in. While you were all still playing with Lando-T and Magearna in 2018, I was off to try out Pokemon Let's Go's metagame. I was a staunch defender of the Candy mechanic, and I strongly believed that it was integral to what made Pokemon Let's Go special compared to gen 7. However, not only was it quickbanned, but I soon realized that it was a good ban. Keeping Candies would have meant a stall-like, centralized hell of a metagame where nothing dies and Eevee dominates all battles. Banning this mechanic meant that Let's Go could show us some limited growth that it would have not seen otherwise, such as the emergence of Dugtrio-A, Poliwrath, and Charizard-X as viable possibilities. Is LGPE the most centralized game in history? Yes. Is it a poor example? Yes. But it's a metagame that became better after its defining gimmick was banned.

There is a slight issue with this point. a.) LGPE OU was simply emulating the "Normal Rules" for multiplayer. There are 2 rulesets for LGPE cart multiplayer, "Normal Rules" and "Unrestricted", Normal Rules set every Pokemon to level 50, sets Happiness to 70, and removes all AVs, while Unrestricted does none of this. And then we have b.) if "Normal Rules" or whatever didn't eliminate AVs, we would have a major legality issue with banning AVs, since it would be impossible to obtain mons at level 50 or 100 or whatever without AVs, since every level up gives a random AV to a stat, and you cannot remove these AVs, save for the "Normal Rules" in multiplayer (the best they could have done was make every Pokemon level 40, since you could obtain all mons with 0 AVs from PoGo transfers, but then Mew would have been illegal).

Also, another ladder was made for the Unrestricted ruleset until it was removed because nobody played it, leaving it as a challenge option until recently when most of the LGPE stuff got purged, save for LGPE OU and LGPE Randbats.

tl;dr, GF already put in a mode where AVs were banned and if they didn't make this mode there would be an actual legality issue with banning this, unlike Dynamax which is just "don't click the button."

 

[SacredLatias]

Here again! With gen 7 coming to an end, I was excited to see what the new meta had brought about. And in some ways, the meta is a LOT of fun. The mons are (mostly) fun to play with and against, such as hatterene, toxtricity, cinderace, and dracozolt/dracovish. Some returning pokemon got some love too, such as mandibuzz hydreigon and conkeldurr. But, obviously since im posting here, dynamax has been a very controversial topic in the competitive pokemon community. So, let me lay out some things I've observed from both sides of this topic, because both have their own merits.

PRO BAN: In my opinion, dynamaxing SHOULD be banned. It allows many already good sweepers to break through checks relatively easily, and gives mons that would usually have no REAL place in the meta a pedestal because of the mechanic (i.e ditto). Another big thing, which has been brought up a lot, is the fact that choice items don't work during dynamax. This is an issue. With the effects of dynamax, many pokemon such as Togekiss can boost up for free and sweep with rng shenanigans. Not to mention, dynamax is not only unpredictable because of choice items. It is also wildly random because ANY pokemon can dynamax just as Jonathan St-Yves said above. Not to mention, pokemon like hydrei can snag a quick nasty plot, and muscle through would be checks like clefable because of the added bulk and power of dynamax.

ANTI BAN: This gen rolled out less than a month ago, and many arguments against dynamax cite this as evidence that we should wait. This is moot. Considering how wildly centralizing it has turned out to be, simply leaving it in seems almost irresponsible. Another argument is that you can also dynamax, and that since they can use dynamax against you as well, it's not broken. This point is also moot. Say we brought primal groudon into gen 7 ou for just a second. The argument that someone else being able to do the same thing, so it not being broken is extremely flimsy. In this scenario, Primal Groudon would centralize the meta completely around itself and ruin what semblance of a meta we had. Same thing applies here. If the mechanic is promoting uncompetitive guessing games that can completely 180 a game, its unhealthy. I saw another post, I dont remember who posted it, who cited other mechanics from games like smash bro being banned. This is a valid point, because it is essentially the same. The keepsake of the mechanic is not enough to warrant it promoting a meta with such undesirable traits required from its player base in order to succeed in my opinion.

What I want you to take away: End of the day, any opinion you hold is correct in its own way. Whether I agree with you or not doesn't matter, as long as we come to a consensus either way to make this meta great. Happy laddering folks, hope you enjoyed my tangent :)