SS OU New player Vish abuse, even people in the 1100s are running Water Absorb

So after Garm got the chop, I decided to get into the meta by abusing Dracovish as much as possible. So I built a balance team with the intention of giving Vish as many free switch-ins as possible. It's started pretty well, but I can already see even in low ladder several mons giving me a bunch of issues. So I decided to see if some more experienced players can take a look at the team and see any massive holes, and some better ways of dealing with the problem mons.

:Dracovish: @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Outrage
Banded Vish for maximum damage, ensuring almost every time it comes in it gets a KO. Turns out even people in the 1100s have worked out you need a water immunity to not auto-lose to this thing though, so I'm having to get used to dealing with Gastrodon lol. I didn't like Outrage because it let Ditto revenge me way too easy, but I lost a couple of Vish mirrors to not having it. With Ditto on the down, Outrage looks way safer. The rest is standard at this point I think.
:Pelipper: @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Tailwind
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Roost
And because Banded Rend clearly does not hit enough already, a rain setter. The main idea behind this set is to Tailwind then U-turn into Vish, as double speed Vish in the rain is totally not OP. Knock Off gets rid of Leftovers on Corvs etc and Eviolite on the occasional Corsola-G. Roost and his own Lefties keeps him healthy to set rain as many times as possible. No Damp Rock because I only need 4 turns of rain to go with 4 turns of Tailwind. Relaxed nature (along with 0 speed IVs if I wasn't stupid lol) lets Pelipper's U-turn be as slow as possible, even with Tailwind behind him, so Dracovish doesn't have to eat attacks on the switch-in. This build lets you underspeed fully invested mons with 87 base speed or more in a Tailwind, while tying with Timid Rotom forms (not that you would send Pelipper into them anyway). 0 speed IVs take that down to Tyranitar's base 61 being faster against the Tailwind when fully invested. Is this a good idea? Do I need Hurricane or Scald?
:Corviknight: @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost
I needed a Defogger so Pelipper didn't have to eat Rocks every time it came in. Corv is the best Defogger in the tier. This set could use a lot of work tbh. I think Iron Defense/Body Press is a decent alternative to the usual Bulk Up/Brave Bird, as it comes without recoil and ID lets it boost up to check physical attackers and deal damage faster. It also makes defence investment far less important. Having room for Defog on an offensive set is nice, but do you think I should commit one way or the other? The set is offensively total dead weight against Ghosts and fat things that resist BP like Pex, but Defog at least means Pex can't just throw down hazards for free. The speed EVs don't hit any real benchmark, just there for other creeping corvs. Should I add a couple more to creep base 70s, or forget it and just max on SpDef?
:Ferrothorn: @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Spikes
- Protect
Ferro is the primary check to opposing Fairies and Rain abusers, being pretty standard on Rain teams. While I'm missing Gyro Ball, I love having Protect on Ferro. Since it's totally reliant on passive regen, having that extra turn to catch a breather is huge, and also allows it to scout for fire coverage, which then may give Pelipper an opportunity to set Rain. Physically defensive was how I originally thought would make sense, but should I go special to intercept things like Dracopult and Clefable? I ask because those are two mons that have given me issues, but they usually carry fire coverage. Also, Power Whip is great at dealing with Vish's checks, but it usually just forces them out rather than actually dealing with them. Would Gyro Ball as a single attack make more sense?
:Clefable: @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast
- Moonlight
LO 3 attacks Clefable is the secondary breaker for the team, and also the Dragon switch-in (you can see I'm still paranoid about Ditto Outrage). I think this is the standard set, but I saw that Clefable gets Shadow Ball, which would let it deal with Ghosts better. Worth it or nah? Also, is there any speed benchmark I should be hitting?
:Seismitoad: @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Scald
- Earthquake
I tried Excadrill in this slot, but I concluded I needed a Rock setter with longevity. Then I remembered I needed a Rend immunity too. Then I added Toad. It's done great things thusfar, even when tricked with a Scarf you just click Toxic/Scald until you get forced out. Ez. People have seen Pelipper and concluded it's Swift Swim even when it sets rocks. Pretty standard set (though I just went with suggested EVs from the Dex and they might be wrong). Toxic also works well with Ferro's Protect and Corv, letting letting them stall attackers out. Walls Rotom forms (except Mow obviously). Does the negative speed matter?

So overall, I think the team has a solid core, with lots of room for improvement. Should I go for a more dedicated Rain build? And what better ways would you suggest to check Clefable and Dracopult? Are there any other mons who threaten the team I'm unprepared for? Thanks in advance.

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Outrage

Pelipper @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Tailwind
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Roost

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Spikes
- Protect

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast
- Moonlight

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Scald
- Earthquake
 
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Hi there!

I think rain is one of the best ways to abuse Dracovish. That said, the most powerful sets I've seen are by far the Scarf variants. The rain boost basically makes up the Choice Band damage on rend, which essentially makes Vish a non-boosting sweeper. It's a really really scary win condition.

:dracovish:
Dracovish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Ice Fang

You've already noted that clearing the way for dracovish can be a challenge because Seismitoad is everywhere. This echoes my experience. The key to this is to have something that seismitoad must switch into but that it can't survive. Mons like Rotom-mow seemingly fit this description but end up being heavily prediction reliant, because Seismitoad will obviously never stay in on a leaf storm. Clefable is your wallbreaker slot but it has a few big weaknesses here. One is that it is only sort of effective at dispatching water absorbers, as specially defensive gastrodon sets can sometimes take it on. Another is that it's your only Ferrothorn check, but the rain gimps Flamethrowers damage so you don't even get as much out of it as you want. I think an alternative wallbreaker here makes sense.

:clefable: --> :obstagoon:
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Taunt

Obstagoon can put huge pressure on Seismitoad, as it absorbs burns from scald, has solid bulk and always 2HKOs with Facade. Seismitoad also hates switching into a Knock Off. Obstagoons ghost immunity also helps you deal with SubDD dragapult who otherwise would really give your team some issues.

That's the only actual replacement I have to suggest, but I think a few set changes could be helpful.

:pelipper:
Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Your team has ample hazard stacking and will likely be switching around quite a lot, so HDB on Pelipper will significantly help its longevity. It's fairly tanky and has Roost so the loss of leftovers isn't a huge problem. I removed Tailwind because with scarf dracovish it really isn't necessary. Scald and Hurricane both do decent damage and burns and confuse can come in really clutch.

I don't know how I feel about the Corviknight set. I haven't got anything in mind to suggest, but I do wonder if a Wish passer might work there. If you choose to go that route, you can always put defog on Pelipper.
 
Hi there!

I think rain is one of the best ways to abuse Dracovish. That said, the most powerful sets I've seen are by far the Scarf variants. The rain boost basically makes up the Choice Band damage on rend, which essentially makes Vish a non-boosting sweeper. It's a really really scary win condition.

:dracovish:
Dracovish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Ice Fang

You've already noted that clearing the way for dracovish can be a challenge because Seismitoad is everywhere. This echoes my experience. The key to this is to have something that seismitoad must switch into but that it can't survive. Mons like Rotom-mow seemingly fit this description but end up being heavily prediction reliant, because Seismitoad will obviously never stay in on a leaf storm. Clefable is your wallbreaker slot but it has a few big weaknesses here. One is that it is only sort of effective at dispatching water absorbers, as specially defensive gastrodon sets can sometimes take it on. Another is that it's your only Ferrothorn check, but the rain gimps Flamethrowers damage so you don't even get as much out of it as you want. I think an alternative wallbreaker here makes sense.

:clefable: --> :obstagoon:
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Taunt

Obstagoon can put huge pressure on Seismitoad, as it absorbs burns from scald, has solid bulk and always 2HKOs with Facade. Seismitoad also hates switching into a Knock Off. Obstagoons ghost immunity also helps you deal with SubDD dragapult who otherwise would really give your team some issues.

That's the only actual replacement I have to suggest, but I think a few set changes could be helpful.

:pelipper:
Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Your team has ample hazard stacking and will likely be switching around quite a lot, so HDB on Pelipper will significantly help its longevity. It's fairly tanky and has Roost so the loss of leftovers isn't a huge problem. I removed Tailwind because with scarf dracovish it really isn't necessary. Scald and Hurricane both do decent damage and burns and confuse can come in really clutch.

I don't know how I feel about the Corviknight set. I haven't got anything in mind to suggest, but I do wonder if a Wish passer might work there. If you choose to go that route, you can always put defog on Pelipper.
This guy said everything.
 
Hi there!

I think rain is one of the best ways to abuse Dracovish. That said, the most powerful sets I've seen are by far the Scarf variants. The rain boost basically makes up the Choice Band damage on rend, which essentially makes Vish a non-boosting sweeper. It's a really really scary win condition.

:dracovish:
Dracovish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Ice Fang

You've already noted that clearing the way for dracovish can be a challenge because Seismitoad is everywhere. This echoes my experience. The key to this is to have something that seismitoad must switch into but that it can't survive. Mons like Rotom-mow seemingly fit this description but end up being heavily prediction reliant, because Seismitoad will obviously never stay in on a leaf storm. Clefable is your wallbreaker slot but it has a few big weaknesses here. One is that it is only sort of effective at dispatching water absorbers, as specially defensive gastrodon sets can sometimes take it on. Another is that it's your only Ferrothorn check, but the rain gimps Flamethrowers damage so you don't even get as much out of it as you want. I think an alternative wallbreaker here makes sense.

:clefable: --> :obstagoon:
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Taunt

Obstagoon can put huge pressure on Seismitoad, as it absorbs burns from scald, has solid bulk and always 2HKOs with Facade. Seismitoad also hates switching into a Knock Off. Obstagoons ghost immunity also helps you deal with SubDD dragapult who otherwise would really give your team some issues.

That's the only actual replacement I have to suggest, but I think a few set changes could be helpful.

:pelipper:
Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Your team has ample hazard stacking and will likely be switching around quite a lot, so HDB on Pelipper will significantly help its longevity. It's fairly tanky and has Roost so the loss of leftovers isn't a huge problem. I removed Tailwind because with scarf dracovish it really isn't necessary. Scald and Hurricane both do decent damage and burns and confuse can come in really clutch.

I don't know how I feel about the Corviknight set. I haven't got anything in mind to suggest, but I do wonder if a Wish passer might work there. If you choose to go that route, you can always put defog on Pelipper.
Thanks! HDB is something I keep singing the praises of whenever I can, but keep forgetting exists when I get to the teambuilder. That's one change I'll certainly make. I'm not really sure I need Hurricane and Scald, one of them by itself should make Pelipper less passive. And I have used Knock Off a load. One mon Peli has abused a ton is Corviknight actually. I switch in Peli, Knock Off the Leftovers, U-Turn into Vish (with optional Tailwind). I don't see the need for coverage on a defensive mon. This could just be me being dumb though, so I'd love to know why you think both are needed. Also, what do you think of the idea of going for 0 speed IVs to get a slow U-turn?
Scarf Vish sounds interesting, and it does solve another issue I have of my whole team being outsped by everything. It does mean I lose on damage output, but I guess I don't need that much? (Then again, a random Subseed Flapple on the ladder ate a Banded Rain Rend taking 28% or something... Not to mention missing things like 2HKOing Ferro.) Going for Ice Fang over Outrage is something I tried before and wasn't impressed with, but I might give it another try, even though the damage when scarfed won't be that impressive. I feel Outrage would be better scarfed too.
Obstagoon is an interesting mon I'd very much like to try. But it exasperates an issue I've seen already: The team is weak to other LO Clefs, and adding another mon that takes upward of 80% from Moonblast doesn't sound fun. How would you suggest solving this issue? I know Vish and possibly Goon can force it out, but neither can switch into Clef. And slow pivoting is out of the question due to Peli both getting smashed by Clef.
As for your concern about Ferro, Corv literally does not care about anything Ferro does bar Leech Seed, PP stalling Spikes/Rocks and/or Body Pressing it to oblivion.
I don't quite get your Wish idea. Who is the intended Wish receiver? Because not having Roost on Corv is like not having Leech Seed on Celesteela/Ferro. Roost lets Corv PP stall supereffective coverage, which is a huge part of what makes Corv good. If you mean Wish passing to Pelipper, I don't really see the need, but please elaborate. I'm still learning and I'd appreciate it greatly if you were to explain this in more detail. Thanks again.
 
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Thanks! HDB is something I keep singing the praises of whenever I can, but keep forgetting exists when I get to the teambuilder. That's one change I'll certainly make. I'm not really sure I need Hurricane and Scald, one of them by itself should make Pelipper less passive. And I have used Knock Off a load. One mon Peli has abused a ton is Corviknight actually. I switch in Peli, Knock Off the Leftovers, U-Turn into Vish (with optional Tailwind). I don't see the need for coverage on a defensive mon. This could just be me being dumb though, so I'd love to know why you think both are needed. Also, what do you think of the idea of going for 0 speed IVs to get a slow U-turn?
Scarf Vish sounds interesting, and it does solve another issue I have of my whole team being outsped by everything. It does mean I lose on damage output, but I guess I don't need that much? (Then again, a random Subseed Flapple on the ladder ate a Banded Rain Rend taking 28% or something... Not to mention missing things like 2HKOing Ferro.) Going for Ice Fang over Outrage is something I tried before and wasn't impressed with, but I might give it another try, even though the damage when scarfed won't be that impressive. I feel Outrage would be better scarfed too.
Obstagoon is an interesting mon I'd very much like to try. But it exasperates an issue I've seen already: The team is weak to other LO Clefs, and adding another mon that takes upward of 80% from Moonblast doesn't sound fun. How would you suggest solving this issue? I know Vish and possibly Goon can force it out, but neither can switch into Clef. And slow pivoting is out of the question due to Peli both getting smashed by Clef.
As for your concern about Ferro, Corv literally does not care about anything Ferro does bar Leech Seed, PP stalling Spikes/Rocks and/or Body Pressing it to oblivion.
I don't quite get your Wish idea. Who is the intended Wish receiver? Because not having Roost on Corv is like not having Leech Seed on Celesteela/Ferro. Roost lets Corv PP stall supereffective coverage, which is a huge part of what makes Corv good. If you mean Wish passing to Pelipper, I don't really see the need, but please elaborate. I'm still learning and I'd appreciate it greatly if you were to explain this in more detail. Thanks again.
The Wish passer was sort of thinking out loud rather than a firm suggestion - the most common choices are Sylveon, Spdef Clefable and Flareon, and those are the ones I was thinking of (mainly Sylveon). These also solve the issue of giving you a reliable switch in to LO clef, especially Flareon, though Flareons normally strong Flare Blitz will be pretty gimped because of rain. If you want to give them a try, here are some standard sets.

:flareon:
Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wish
- Protect
- Will-o-Wisp / Yawn

:sylveon:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Mystical Fire / Yawn

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave

Flareon has the easiest time switching in, thanks to resisting both Moonblast and Flamethrower. The intended target of the wish pass is mainly Obstagoon, though Dracovish and Ferrothorn could appreciate it too.

If you don't feel like Wish passing is doing much for you, it's hard to go wrong with Rotom-heat. You can even take advantage of the fact that you're on rain to give it a little something extra.

:rotom-heat:
Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot / Will-o-Wisp

There are also choice scarf trick sets, but I think your team really appreciates having boots so you can pivot around. This forms a nice voltturn spam core with Pelipper too.

Speaking of Pelipper, I don't off the top of my head know whether dropping to min speed will make a huge difference, since pelipper is quite slow already. If you want to drop a move for Knock Off, probably drop Hurricane.
 
The Wish passer was sort of thinking out loud rather than a firm suggestion - the most common choices are Sylveon, Spdef Clefable and Flareon, and those are the ones I was thinking of (mainly Sylveon). These also solve the issue of giving you a reliable switch in to LO clef, especially Flareon, though Flareons normally strong Flare Blitz will be pretty gimped because of rain. If you want to give them a try, here are some standard sets.

:flareon:
Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wish
- Protect
- Will-o-Wisp / Yawn

:sylveon:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Mystical Fire / Yawn

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave

Flareon has the easiest time switching in, thanks to resisting both Moonblast and Flamethrower. The intended target of the wish pass is mainly Obstagoon, though Dracovish and Ferrothorn could appreciate it too.

If you don't feel like Wish passing is doing much for you, it's hard to go wrong with Rotom-heat. You can even take advantage of the fact that you're on rain to give it a little something extra.

:rotom-heat:
Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot / Will-o-Wisp

There are also choice scarf trick sets, but I think your team really appreciates having boots so you can pivot around. This forms a nice voltturn spam core with Pelipper too.

Speaking of Pelipper, I don't off the top of my head know whether dropping to min speed will make a huge difference, since pelipper is quite slow already. If you want to drop a move for Knock Off, probably drop Hurricane.
so replace what with Rotom-H? I like the idea of this.
 
I'm still learning towards replacing Corviknight, in which case you can stick Defog on Pelipper.
Thanks! I'll make the changes in a copy of the team, just to test both and understand more about the changes. Also, the 0 speed IV idea underspeeds notably Hippowdon with 31 IVs, and anything above or at base 45, including Conk.
 
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Gonna bump this and get some fresh eyes on it. Any ideas on how this team can not get torn apart by Dragapult and Clef?
 
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