Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Who are your favorite candidates?

  • Kamala Harris

    Votes: 43 8.0%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 99 18.4%
  • Julián Castro

    Votes: 16 3.0%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 51 9.5%
  • Kirsten Gillibrand

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • John Delaney

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Tulsi Gabbard

    Votes: 63 11.7%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 338 62.9%
  • Amy Klobuchar

    Votes: 12 2.2%
  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 45 8.4%
  • Andrew Yang

    Votes: 112 20.9%
  • Cory Booker

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Marianne Williamson

    Votes: 19 3.5%
  • Mike Bloomberg

    Votes: 12 2.2%

  • Total voters
    537
it's worth noting that bernie sanders, in terms of the stuff he proposes, is more of a north european-style social democrat than a "democratic socialist," let alone a communist. the latter two terms imply the eventual abolition of private ownership of the means of production, which is not something he stresses in his campaign to my knowledge. maybe privately he believes capitalism should come to an end, but he's also a politician working within a system that has been extremely hostile towards anything approaching radical "left" politics, so he neither has the will nor ability to do anything more radical than more state control over certain sectors of the economy (like the health care system). at worst (if you're a free market guy) you're looking at a "mixed economy" type deal, which is still a capitalist model at the end of the day, just with less overtly inhumane nonsense.
 
I'm seriously wondering what would happen if Bernie has the most delegates by a good margin but it was a brokered convention and he isn't chosen as the nominee. It's a possibility, albeit I'm not sure how probable. I'd imagine if that was what happened though there would be hell to pay

https://www.npr.org/2016/05/19/4787...-superdelegates-are-key-to-winning-nomination

Ask Bernie. That was his strategy in 2016 when he lost by 3 million votes. Perhaps his campaign ran polling on the backlash to such a scenario? Probably not, though.

Still kind of funny that he and his fans wanted superdelegates to overturn the will of the people after spending a year complaining that superdelegates naturally... overturn the will of the people.
 
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/19/4787...-superdelegates-are-key-to-winning-nomination

Ask Bernie. That was his strategy in 2016 when he lost by 3 million votes. Perhaps his campaign ran polling on the backlash to such a scenario? Probably not, though.

Still kind of funny that he and his fans wanted superdelegates to overturn the will of the people after spending a year complaining that superdelegates naturally... overturn the will of the people.
if you seriously think there was even a modicum of a possibility that superdelegates would have given the 2016 election to Bernie I have a bridge to sell you
 
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/19/4787...-superdelegates-are-key-to-winning-nomination

Ask Bernie. That was his strategy in 2016 when he lost by 3 million votes. Perhaps his campaign ran polling on the backlash to such a scenario? Probably not, though.

Still kind of funny that he and his fans wanted superdelegates to overturn the will of the people after spending a year complaining that superdelegates naturally... overturn the will of the people.

We now know that Bernie was holding out in order draw concessions from Hillary (as you should when you win 22 of the 50 states...). And in the most Bernie move ever, she asks expecting a demand for some admin position, and instead he demands position positions-- "15 min wage, TPP opposition, Carbon Tax, Social Security expansion..."

Even in the end haggling not on his own behalf, but that of the American people. Just like he did as amendment king, just as he did as Mayor of Burlington. And then after getting everything he could for the people-- 42 events for her (she did 10 for Obama). What a class act.

Also, another really amazing vid from Rising (they had on one of Hillary's top serrogates to explain to us why Bernie is awful):
 
We now know that Bernie was holding out in order draw concessions from Hillary (as you should when you win 22 of the 50 states...). And in the most Bernie move ever, she asks expecting a demand for some admin position, and instead he demands position positions-- "15 min wage, TPP opposition, Carbon Tax, Social Security expansion..."

Even in the end haggling not on his own behalf, but that of the American people. Just like he did as amendment king, just as he did as Mayor of Burlington. And then after getting everything he could for the people-- 42 events for her (she did 10 for Obama). What a class act.

Also, another really amazing vid from Rising (they had on one of Hillary's top serrogates to explain to us why Bernie is awful):
Yes, involuntary Social Security expansion that's expected to only pay out 80% of what is paid into in the near future because the government keeps dipping its hand into it, that's surely what everyone needs! Not like people can accrue interest on their 401k's or other investments or anything.
 
Yes, involuntary Social Security expansion that's expected to only pay out 80% of what is paid into in the near future because the government keeps dipping its hand into it, that's surely what everyone needs! Not like people can accrue interest on their 401k's or other investments or anything.

Please get your boy Trump to make the argument for cutting Social Security in the general.
 
Tbh my favorite sanders own is when ppl say he doesn't write enough bills that get passed. Like ohhh nooo the things he supports are shunned by all of the dnc's cabal! Stay far far away from that guy

So it's a good thing for someone to be immensely ineffective at their job? Now THAT is a hot take.

Here's a question: if he couldn't do it in Congress for 30 years, how can we expect him to do it as president? Those things aren't going to get more popular just because he got a podium. In fact his ideas are generally unpopular compared to the cOrPoRaTe nEoLiBeRaL versions e.g. public option.

He's running for President, not Emperor, remember? It's wild that the Bernie wing would rather their savior get elected than for actual progress to be made.
 
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Please get your boy Trump to make the argument for cutting Social Security in the general.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/...le-over-who-will-best-protect-social-security

While running for re-election in 1996, then-Congressman Sanders said at a news conference that the Social Security system had "been adjusted before, and adjustments will have to be made again."

Just like with the Crime Bill, Bernie and his supporters have a massive double standard. It's all good when Sanders wants to make cost-cutting adjustments to social security (years later than Bernie fans clock Biden for saying it, might I add). It's all good when Sanders says we need to go tough on crime. It's all good when Sanders votes for wars and regime change. But when someone else does it, they're crucified.

The funny thing is, nobody would even point to these parts of Bernie's record had he not brought them up himself. The problem with campaigning solely on "I'm holier than thou" (see: his response when asked for his plan on Iran*) is that after 50 years in politics, nobody is holy, and you're just going to look like a major hypocrite.

Obligatory reminder that Bernie voted for the Authorization for Use of Military Force, regime change in Iraq, and the Afghanistan war. He has more pro-war votes than any candidate besides Biden.
 
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Another thing to consider is that the polling that has been done is going to be undercounting young voting-age groups for the simple fact that almost nobody under the age of 40 has a landline. The effects can be seen in the recent midterms, but I'll focus on one congressional district in particular: Oklahoma's 5th. Incumbent Republican Steve Russell was the heavy favorite to win the election, but Kendra Horn significantly outperformed her polling numbers to beat him. I think it's fair to say that young voters went overwhelmingly Democratic in this district, even in deep red Oklahoma (this district represents Oklahoma City, which is easily the least red part of the state) and were undercounted by pollsters, which would explain the ~4 percentage point discrepancy between polling and the actual results.

To make my point relevant to this thread: For the reasons that pollsters just haven't been able to count people aged 18-29 effectively at all, I would honestly expect to see Bernie Sanders outperform his polling, which would explain why prediction markets are rating his odds better than pollsters/FiveThirtyEight's polling averages are.

Anyway, moving on from polling errors and how polling has been pretty terrible lately, something to consider in any Democratic candidate is whether or not they have the ability to bring in the groups who either voted third party or didn't vote at all in 2016. I've come to support Bernie Sanders for this reason, even putting aside my concerns about his age and protectionist trade policies; an establishment candidate like Biden simply can't bring in these voters. The simple fact of the matter is that an anti-establishment candidate is what is needed to bring in these cohorts; these people either vote third party or don't vote because they've grown to be disillusioned by the establishments of both parties. Bernie and Yang are really the only candidates who meet those criteria
I think your point about that age group being undercounted helps for sure; another thing to note is that these age groups are more likely to be able to campaign outside and mobilize for rallies and stuff (the Bernie rallies with AOC looked like massive crowds). I also agree with your assessment of Bernie/Yang being the only 2 that really bring new voters in aside from the disillusioned Trump voters who'd vote for any Democrat; my roommate (who's conservative) said Yang is the only dem he'd consider voting for, for example. I think people are underestimating the level of political involvement and especially the amount of new voters Bernie's different brand of politics brings in, too, so it's likely he outperforms polls (which still look really good). I really like Yang as a candidate; I think his chances of winning are absolutely minimal and he needs to outperform expectations heavily (still, knocking one of the top 3 out seems kinda impossible at this stage), but I like what he brings to the party and especially what he contributed to the debate in terms of actual economic discussion instead of the rehashed "how ya gonna pay for Medicare for all" stuff. I hope that we don't see a Harris situation where he just runs out of money; I highly doubt we see this considering that his supporters' enthusiasm might be even higher than Bernie's (though of course coming from a far smaller base), so he probably has a decent amount of money inflow. Biden's group will reliably turn out for fear of Trump (and the perceived electability), but it just doesn't feel like he's had any momentum or excitement in the past couple months, and I don't see him getting new voters in after all the attacks that are out there.

just curious, when you say concerns about his "protectionist trade policies," do you mean his no-vote on the NAFTA/USMCA deals? no particular comment on that, just wondering if there's something else you're referencing.

as an aside, who taking bets on when klobuchar drops out? I'm hoping she does it after Iowa just so Biden doesn't scrape by Bernie by consolidating the "moderate" vote, but there's really been nothing exciting about her campaign to me (for example, doing hot dish dinners while other candidates have surrogates doing rallies) and the fact that she's stuck in Washington with impeachment means that I highly doubt she retains the support she does have through the primary once Iowa results are out.
 
Here's a question: if he couldn't do it in Congress for 30 years, how can we expect him to do it as president? Those things aren't going to get more popular just because he got a podium.
After election the presidential policies generally get passed. At the very least the people blocking progressive policies for decades will have to take a hard look at their popularity when compared to the presidential platform.

See: Congress literally funding trump's border wall after 3 years of screaming they'd never do it
 
After election the presidential policies generally get passed. At the very least the people blocking progressive policies for decades will have to take a hard look at their popularity when compared to the presidential platform.

Please tell me that you all know this is total bullshit. I'm really trying to hold out hope that this forum has at least a small grip on reality, but it's getting really difficult.

Even if you started following politics in 2016, Trump's inability to even "repeal and replace" Obamacare with a full Republican majority is striking evidence to the contrary. Not to mention that it's taken Trump 3 years to get any resolution with his biggest campaign progress (the wall), and even that has been a let down. And it's ridiculous in itself to conflate a wall that costs a few billion dollars with $60 trillion of policy.

If your idea of "success" is Bernie getting a fraction of a single plan passed at the end of his presidency... Yikes.

Anyone who was alive and had a functioning brain from 2010-2016 should need no explanation.

Gato's answer was better than the typical, "He'll hold rallies in Kentucky and Mitch McConnel will change his mind!" drivel, I guess, but thats a really, really low bar.
 
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After election the presidential policies generally get passed. At the very least the people blocking progressive policies for decades will have to take a hard look at their popularity when compared to the presidential platform.

See: Congress literally funding trump's border wall after 3 years of screaming they'd never do it
Popularity is on the rise, my friend.
 
Some of the comments in this thread do a phenomenal job corroborating the notion that American public education is criminally underfunded. The idea that a center-left Green party-kinda candidate in a global context (Sanders) is a communist is so mindbogglingly ignorant it skips 'plainly stupid' and goes right to 'redneck caricature' territory. Honestly, while yes education funding cuts do contribute to this kinda shit, there's also the fact that Google exists; you can type in "communism" into your browser and get a blurb about some basic principles at the very least. Seeing this level of ignorance makes me feel lucky my highschool offered a comprehensive comparative politics class that examines historically significant regimes like the USSR and the PRC. I hope that one day a comparative politics credit is required in highschools nationally; it'd do the world a looooot of good if the sole superpower's voter pool wasn't brimming with people only capable of thought on a gun-toting-hick level.

I love how "hey maybe we should have government health insurance like virtually every other developed country and maybe not contrivedly burden swathes of young people with crippling student debt and also not make the Earth uninhabitable for human beings" somehow prompts "OH MY GOD VENEZUELA THE SOVIET UNION IT NEVER WORKS" without fail every single fucking time. Sanders isn't even a good example of a socialist; his policies are all essentially all reformist. If you look at his workplace democracy plan, there is nothing about transitioning from private ownership to worker ownership of enterprise---the basis of socialism---it's all about strengthening the power of unions and combating the hierarchical and oligarchic nature of how capitalism organizes enterprise that way. Yeah, I know he calls himself a democratic socialist, but an actual DSA member or what have you would outflank Sanders economically 100%.

And this isn't to say that the best way to respond to "omg socialism bad it never works venezuela the PRC" is to cite than Sanders isn't actually a socialist---defending capitalism is an absurdly uphill battle for the poor soul who takes up the challenge, but it's important to note that these kinds of people are so profoundly ignorant they don't even understand where their opposition stands politically. I implore you to educate yourself on lefty economics ideas---Dr. Richard Wolff is the best orator on this in the context of the US (he is going to do a better job of explaining things than I could since I don't have a PhD in econ---I did write a big-ass post earlier you can check out, though)---but given the sub-middle school level of reading comprehension the "OMG VENEZUELA" people tend to have, I have little hope they'll sit through a 2 hour video that actually challenges their preconceptions.

Last thing: "worker owned enterprise" and its spirit have various interpretations in terms of substantive policy. State capitalism (USSR, PRC, what most people mean when they say "communist/communism") is one where the employer-employee undemocratic dichotomy remains in tact, but the employer is no longer a private entity---the immensely authoritarian nature of many regimes that employed this style would be the common evil. Reformist models like the Nordic countries are often considered "socialist"---socialism has an aim of destratifying class, which to an extent can be accomplished with reformist policies like hiking up the minimum wage, using highly progressive tax brackets, having an expansive social safety net, etc. Finally, worker co-ops (so a collective of private entities) owning enterprise is picking up interest (Dr. Wolff is a big proponent of this approach) and would be the most direct form of socialism of the three. It has limited experimentation to my knowledge.

edit: MikeDawg, you should probably read the post before you drop a like. I'm nowhere near being your ideological ally, and there is zero chance in hell any of what I just wrote resonates with your "woke centrist" alignment.
 
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as an aside, who taking bets on when klobuchar drops out? I'm hoping she does it after Iowa just so Biden doesn't scrape by Bernie by consolidating the "moderate" vote

Supporters for any candidate who doesn't hit the viability in Iowa go to another candidate, kind of like ranked choice voting. You should be hoping that she hits 15% in Iowa so that she does split the pragmatic vote.

Honestly, the ideal situation for Biden supporters would be if only he, Warren, and Bernie hit 15% so that Biden can absorb most of the residual support.
 
edit: MikeDawg, you should probably read the post before you drop a like. I'm nowhere near being your ideological ally, and there is zero chance in hell any of what I just wrote resonates with your "woke centrist" alignment.

My "alignment" is whatever will effect meaningful progress. I don't dislike Bernie Sanders for his political views, I dislike him because he's a do-nothing loser whose only legacy is getting Donald Trump elected.

I liked your comment because it's factually correct. I've never said anything to the contrary. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But thank you for further evidencing my point that you all value my input above anyone else's, to the point where half of the posts here are a shout-out to me. I genuinely appreciate the attention, because it confirms what we all know: I'm an icon.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

beyonce-wink-gif-4.gif
 
Some of the comments in this thread do a phenomenal job corroborating the notion that American public education is criminally underfunded. The idea that a center-left Green party-kinda candidate in a global context (Sanders) is a communist is so mindbogglingly ignorant it skips 'plainly stupid' and goes right to 'redneck caricature' territory. Honestly, while yes education funding cuts do contribute to this kinda shit, there's also the fact that Google exists; you can type in "communism" into your browser and get a blurb about some basic principles at the very least. Seeing this level of ignorance makes me feel lucky my highschool offered a comprehensive comparative politics class that examines historically significant regimes like the USSR and the PRC. I hope that one day a comparative politics credit is required in highschools nationally; it'd do the world a looooot of good if the sole superpower's voter pool wasn't brimming with people only capable of thought on a gun-toting-hick level.

I love how "hey maybe we should have government health insurance like virtually every other developed country and maybe not contrivedly burden swathes of young people with crippling student debt and also not make the Earth uninhabitable for human beings" somehow prompts "OH MY GOD VENEZUELA THE SOVIET UNION IT NEVER WORKS" without fail every single fucking time. Sanders isn't even a good example of a socialist; his policies are all essentially all reformist. If you look at his workplace democracy plan, there is nothing about transitioning from private ownership to worker ownership of enterprise---the basis of socialism---it's all about strengthening the power of unions and combating the hierarchical and oligarchic nature of how capitalism organizes enterprise that way. Yeah, I know he calls himself a democratic socialist, but an actual DSA member or what have you would outflank Sanders economically 100%.

And this isn't to say that the best way to respond to "omg socialism bad it never works venezuela the PRC" is to cite than Sanders isn't actually a socialist---defending capitalism is an absurdly uphill battle for the poor soul who takes up the challenge, but it's important to note that these kinds of people are so profoundly ignorant they don't even understand where their opposition stands politically. I implore you to educate yourself on lefty economics ideas---Dr. Richard Wolff is the best orator on this in the context of the US (he is going to do a better job of explaining things than I could since I don't have a PhD in econ---I did write a big-ass post earlier you can check out, though)---but given the sub-middle school level of reading comprehension the "OMG VENEZUELA" people tend to have, I have little hope they'll sit through a 2 hour video that actually challenges their preconceptions.

Last thing: "worker owned enterprise" and its spirit have various interpretations in terms of substantive policy. State capitalism (USSR, PRC, what most people mean when they say "communist/communism") is one where the employer-employee undemocratic dichotomy remains in tact, but the employer is no longer a private entity---the immensely authoritarian nature of many regimes that employed this style would be the common evil. Reformist models like the Nordic countries are often considered "socialist"---socialism has an aim of destratifying class, which to an extent can be accomplished with reformist policies like hiking up the minimum wage, using highly progressive tax brackets, having an expansive social safety net, etc. Finally, worker co-ops (so a collective of private entities) owning enterprise is picking up interest (Dr. Wolff is a big proponent of this approach) and would be the most direct form of socialism of the three. It has limited experimentation to my knowledge.

edit: MikeDawg, you should probably read the post before you drop a like. I'm nowhere near being your ideological ally, and there is zero chance in hell any of what I just wrote resonates with your "woke centrist" alignment.

Edit: thank you mods for doing your job and deleting everything I wrote to turn it into a meme. That's definitely what we all needed. Not listing the legit reasons why Bernie is a commie to refute false points.
 
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"Bernie is bad at his job because he can't pass legislation."

Imagine voting for how things ought to be instead of just having to resign yourself to things staying the way they are. How dare you dream of something better. I don't know what the Overton Window is, please do not inform me of it.
 
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