SS OU Arena Trap suspect
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-2-the-three-of-us.3661134/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-2-the-three-of-us.3661134/
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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TY OU Finnally the three head bastard is going to get the boot for 4 consecutive gens...
Talking about Toad vs Kommo-o, both has problem with recovery, Wish support help the two in a big way.
I think Toad has the metagame "adapted" to his presence (many grass move) but that is bc how good he is doing Toad things (like Swampert in ADV and DPP).
Kommo-o is also a great mon rn but the presence of Cleafable and Dragapult hurt more than help, when Toad has been a staple from the beggining (access to Toxic/Stealth Rock, water absorb, good bulk, awesome typing).
PokeHome was worst to Toad giving the tools he has before to most part of the metagame.
The thing is both has simillar rol comprension but the good thing is you can choose within both (no one outclassed the other).
Toad:
-Better bulk/typing
-Water absorb
Kommo-o:
- IronDefense + STAB Body press
- Bulletproof (much better rn than Soundproof bc of Pult/Aegi, Cinderace, Venu)
I feel like Toad is better than kommo o atm with bulk up play rough zeraora,rain and it’s a better dracovish switch in than kommo o.
Oh that’s right. I completely forgot about that!
So what are your thoughts about Dragon Dance Dragapult? I've constantly seen the set being labeled as "memetic" yet I keep seeing it being used in mid-high ladder with nice success, Dragapult at +1 cleans with such extreme ease it's ridiculous, if your Fairy-type is weakened and Corvi is possibly gone (Or is running a set that can't touch it, looking at you Defog sets running Body Press) it's extremely hard to stop. Phantom Force, despite being a 2 turn with standard power move, is enough to sweep late game, as the 2 turn charge is barely noticeable at that point due to the (probably) weakened team and the fact you can't be hit while charging it
The set:
And some calcs of course:
This set is so hard to stop at late game it's absurd, and it's a way better wincon than just standard Specs Pult imo, this thing paired with Teleport Clef and Band Dracovish put so much pressure to the opposing team it's likely either Vish or Pult will end up winning the game.
Thoughts? I don't feel like this set should be considered a meme at this point
The set:
Dragapult (M) @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Steel Wing
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Steel Wing
And some calcs of course:
LO+Jolly calcs:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 382-452 (120.5 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 294-348 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 266-312 (64.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
If running PhysDef:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 247-292 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can easily overwhelm Corviknight by just setting up another DD, which will do easily over 80%
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Many Toxapex aren't even running Haze, if that's the case you just overwhelm it, though the point of this set is not sweeping entire teams, but cleaning
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 390-458 (110.1 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 382-452 (126.4 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 382-452 (120.5 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 294-348 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 266-312 (64.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
If running PhysDef:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Corviknight: 247-292 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can easily overwhelm Corviknight by just setting up another DD, which will do easily over 80%
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Many Toxapex aren't even running Haze, if that's the case you just overwhelm it, though the point of this set is not sweeping entire teams, but cleaning
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 390-458 (110.1 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 382-452 (126.4 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This set is so hard to stop at late game it's absurd, and it's a way better wincon than just standard Specs Pult imo, this thing paired with Teleport Clef and Band Dracovish put so much pressure to the opposing team it's likely either Vish or Pult will end up winning the game.
Thoughts? I don't feel like this set should be considered a meme at this point
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Yeah, it's seen loads of use in SPL as a lead on HO, just setup from the go and punch holes. Though I think the set that has been seeing most use is:
Dragapult (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Spa
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Fire Blast
- Steel Wing
Steels are no longer an issue.
Also, usually if not running mixed investment, remember that 8 HP EVs give you 319 HP, a magic number that does all kinds of great things.
Not Double Post:
On another note, I was trying to think of a way to use Hawlucha better.
Hawlucha @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Taunt/HJK
- Brave Bird
This is what I came up with. Uninvested Hawlucha already outspeeds and OHKOs Scarf Gengar after Unburden. This set aims to take a slow approach to sweeping and to break down stuff. It's not a new concept, but I think the way its used is new. Hawlucha ATM suffers with regard to setup time and being a one-time threat. This set aims to remedy that with Hawlucha's natural speed being used for most of the game to setup and sweep. In this way, it functions more like a bulky breaker. Another idea I had was forfeiting Hawlucha's Unburden entirely:
Hawlucha @ Leftovers
Ability: Limber
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
The Speed takes you past fully invested base 100s, with a Jolly nature so EVs can be dumped into bulk. Hawlucha's natural speed and immunity to paralysis makes it capable of breaking down balance teams that rely on mid-speed breakers like Hydreigon and Obstagoon, being fast enough to necessitate revenge killing but not so fast it has no longevity.
Any thoughts on this? I think Hawlucha's one-time sweep mentality is holding it back atm.
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CasperXVI
Banned deucer.
I just recently came back to mons and looking after looking at the home update, experimenting in the teambuilder, and watching/playing a few battles, I wanted to put out an opinion.
DracoZera:
This is my favorite offensive core on paper and it works well with volt turn builds. Zera is a threat in this meta being so offensively versatile and a few things stand in the way of this set defensively: Clef, Seis, Hippo, Quag, and Roheat. Three of those five are food for Dracovish if you can catch your opponent with a double. Seis and Quag would be worked around using the rest of your team . If Quag ends up being Unaware, Vish ends it anyways. The three attacking moves were what I felt hit the majority of the meta super-effectively, hence the expert belt.
On the other end, the things that prevent Dracovish spamming Fishous Rend are Toxapex, Helmet Ferro (chips with hazards up), and Seis and other water absorbers. Toxapex, Ferro, and the majority of water absorbers are generally free setup opportunities for Zeraora. Again, Seis and Quag would normally be dealt with by other wallbreakers such as Obstagoon. In addition, fat Dracovish is really good and those strong fishous rends allow for ATK EVs to be put in HP and DEF to help it take things like Exca or Bish which offensively check Zera.
DracoZera:
Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 HP / 184 Atk / 116 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
- Super Fang
Zeraora @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Bulk Up
- Blaze Kick
- Play Rough
Ability: Strong Jaw
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 HP / 184 Atk / 116 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
- Super Fang
Zeraora @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Bulk Up
- Blaze Kick
- Play Rough
This is my favorite offensive core on paper and it works well with volt turn builds. Zera is a threat in this meta being so offensively versatile and a few things stand in the way of this set defensively: Clef, Seis, Hippo, Quag, and Roheat. Three of those five are food for Dracovish if you can catch your opponent with a double. Seis and Quag would be worked around using the rest of your team . If Quag ends up being Unaware, Vish ends it anyways. The three attacking moves were what I felt hit the majority of the meta super-effectively, hence the expert belt.
On the other end, the things that prevent Dracovish spamming Fishous Rend are Toxapex, Helmet Ferro (chips with hazards up), and Seis and other water absorbers. Toxapex, Ferro, and the majority of water absorbers are generally free setup opportunities for Zeraora. Again, Seis and Quag would normally be dealt with by other wallbreakers such as Obstagoon. In addition, fat Dracovish is really good and those strong fishous rends allow for ATK EVs to be put in HP and DEF to help it take things like Exca or Bish which offensively check Zera.
What specific benchmarks do those EVs on Dracovish hit?
CasperXVI
Banned deucer.
The speed outspeeds the rotom family if uninvested. The attack EVs OHKO Pult on switchin which seems situational and almost pointless but its a blanket EV count to guarantee OHKOs/2HKOs on a lot of other mons and I couldn't find another reasonable point to cap. The rest is split into HP and DEF to maximize your ability to revenge/switch into things like drill, cinder, and bish.
Obstagoon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo
- Facade
- Knock Off
This set may seem kind of bad but it's really strong and splashable utility:
- You have braindead trick scarf which makes it a strong lead against anything, since you can just trick > free parting shot. This basically allows you to get a guaranteed setup with something in the back early on providing your opponent doesn't have a Bisharp
- It gives you a guaranteed switch in on a status condition and if you manage to get this thing burned it just wrecks everything
- Scarf Knock basically kills Dragapult (it's like 94% before rocks which sucks) and can revenge kill other things
- Can punish Grimmsnarl leads easily and stop your opponent from getting screens up, being immune to taunt
Even though I'm garbage this set has been really effective, unsure how well it works at a higher level though
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here but why is Obstagoon immune to Taunt?
It's specifically immune to Grimmsnarl's taunts, as Dark types like Obstagoon have an innate immunity to moves that have had their priority boosted by Prankster, just as Fire types are innately immune to burns, or Ghost types are innately immune to being trapped.
The most stally viable sort of team you can run is probably the Pokemon you mentioned + Snorlax, Ditto, and a bulky Water-type like Seismitoad.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Jirachi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Wish
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere
I'm not exactly sure on EVs, but I got swept by this jirachi on the ladder after using knock off with toad lol. Is this set actually viable or was my team just really weak to it?
I know it's flawed because in order to activate WP you need to likely predict or bait a knock and something like incineroar would still probably beat it. It also gets revenge killed by faster mons like cinderace, provided it hasn't gotten off a couple cosmic powers, which it probably shouldn't. I also think it has its strengths. Stored power will blow away pex so it can't haze you. It doesn't have to worry too much about being burned and it can't be put on a timer with toxic. Phazing in general doesn't seem common in SS OU and stored power after the WP boosts would still likely 2HKO every hippo that wasn't near max spdef. Unaware quag couldn't deal with stored power either. Unaware clef could handle it, but I feel like that's rare compared to magic guard. Ditto also really can't do much to it
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Wish
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere
I'm not exactly sure on EVs, but I got swept by this jirachi on the ladder after using knock off with toad lol. Is this set actually viable or was my team just really weak to it?
I know it's flawed because in order to activate WP you need to likely predict or bait a knock and something like incineroar would still probably beat it. It also gets revenge killed by faster mons like cinderace, provided it hasn't gotten off a couple cosmic powers, which it probably shouldn't. I also think it has its strengths. Stored power will blow away pex so it can't haze you. It doesn't have to worry too much about being burned and it can't be put on a timer with toxic. Phazing in general doesn't seem common in SS OU and stored power after the WP boosts would still likely 2HKO every hippo that wasn't near max spdef. Unaware quag couldn't deal with stored power either. Unaware clef could handle it, but I feel like that's rare compared to magic guard. Ditto also really can't do much to it
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I think it's too weak. I'd almost rather run SubCM with Psychic and a coverage move (probably Aura Sphere) but even then you're easily revenge killed by any of the abundant ghost types in OU.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Could Xatu work on stall as a budget Mega Sableye? Maybe max hp/def with heat wave to threaten drill and ferro, psychic for kommo-o, roost, and I guess teleport or wish to round it out?
Not to mention that the most prominent, Dragapult, has Infiltrator. But then again, I guess you could run WP for that if you've got a CM up and enough bulk to live
I wouldn't bother since Corviknight and Clefable already do a great job at hazard control and status absorption respectively while Knock Off, which is commonly used on Stealth Rock setters like Ferrothorn, Seismitoad, and Clefable, severely cripples Xatu. The only team archetype I'd personally ever consider using Xatu on is sun nowadays.
For a Magic Bounce user in OU, I think you're better off using Hatterene. I have success with this set.
Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Aromatherapy
0 Speed IVs to better take Gyro Balls from Ferro. Pseudo-healing in Draining Kiss. And the icing on the cake: Aromatherapy
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Yeah Hat is definitely a better pokemon but not being able to safely switch into drill hurts when he's a common rocker on more offensive teams and losing to corviknight isn't ideal either. I also would prefer more reliable recovery on stall. Hat may be a better option overall but still I think Ruft is probably right that it's not worth it to try to force a magic bouncer on stall; I agree that xatu ends up kind of feeling like a waste with clef and corviknight
JTD783 If you're interested, I've had decent success with this stall team:
Corviknight (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Iron Head
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn
Dugtrio (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Reversal
Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
Toxapex (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Iron Head
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn
Dugtrio (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Reversal
Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
Toxapex (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform
Not to mention that Mold Breaker Excadrill actually ignores Magic Bounce with Stealth Rock (weird perk of Mold Breaker), so there’s no prediction required at all on the Excadrill’s part.
I’ve been trying out Trick Room teams with the mentioned Hatterene but I’m not good at building teams, much less building a niche archetype like TR. What’s TR like in the current SS OU meta?
Crawdaunt and Aegislash come to mind as good wallbreakers. Chandelure and copperajah (not sure if it’s still viable, but still good coverage/typing). Secondary setters mimikyu for (almost) guaranteed trickroom . I’m not too familiar with trick room, but that’s what I’ve seen on the ladder and things that come to mind.
Edit: went through the viability rankings and Conkeldurr also is a good abuser.
I have been having a lot of success with Unburden / Belly Drum Slurpuff lately. It’s movepool is extremely limited, but once you overwhelm its counters it’s a house.
Trick Room is pretty bad atm. It's not an abuser problem, it's an issue of all the viable setters got snapped, and there's no real replacements. There is no longer an Uxie that can compress Rocks, Trick Room and Memento off the lead. There's no Cresselia that can absorb hits and set Trick Room repeatedly before saccing itself for one last sweep. And OTR mons are just non-existent. Hat is the only one that comes close, and it's sadly way too easy to stop, as it cannot fit Trick Room, STABs, coverage and setup in 4 moves, as well as lacking reliable recovery and being way too vulnerable to revenge killing when TR ends. Not to mention if it goes down the team likely goes down with it. There just isn't any way to set TR and regain the momentum you lose from doing so.
Plus the fact that abusers of TR being common actually can end up hurting, as your faster abusers can risk being undersped by mons that are on basically every other team.
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