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How is Sand Spit not broken? If you don’t want Sand Spit to activate, you have to not attack the opponent ever, which isn’t possible even for stall teams.
Also, either ban Contrary or unban Unaware. The current state of the meta is unacceptable.
How is it?
You have to use a subpar mon in Sandaconda, must use excadrill no matter what (not calling it bad), and another ground type (gastrodon) for sand force to even be an option. Steel Spam is dead, and as I went over before, the real issues are Dragapult and Contrary aiding the strategy. Sand Spit on its own does nothing, with exca it's just a lesser speed strat that excadrill can make use of. It's not "Broken". To top that off, you as the opponent have the choice of when you trigger their weather.
That might be the dumbest argument I've ever read. That's like saying for sun you have to use venusaur and torkoal/ninetails. Torkoal/ninetails are equally as bad as sandaconda on their own and venusaur is way worse than drill by your logic sun + chlorophyll should be unbanned.
just to get in on the whole regen vs pex debate, I still think it's very possible to build good stall without any pex simply by substituting other regen users. Yes it's harder to fit in haze, but I think e.g. dusclops does a good job providing pressure + haze.
Not saying this team is any good but here's an example post-pex stall team (which also doesn't use fur scales) that clicks sub and protect for 47 turns and beats one of those sand teams going around: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1095527639 The opponent's team is literally 5 breakers + sandaconda and that wasn't enough to beat the pp stall prankster strategy.
This suggests to me it's regen and not pex that was the problem.
That might be the dumbest argument I've ever read. That's like saying for sun you have to use venusaur and torkoal/ninetails. Torkoal/ninetails are equally as bad as sandaconda on their own and venusaur is way worse than drill by your logic sun + chlorophyll should be unbanned.
I take it you don't read your own stuff often then.
I'm not going to partake in a mud slinging contest over an ability as horrendous as Sand Spit. If you can't figure out why autoweathers and sand spit aren't the same, and just go ahead calling things dumb, power to you.
just to get in on the whole regen vs pex debate, I still think it's very possible to build good stall without any pex simply by substituting other regen users. Yes it's harder to fit in haze, but I think e.g. dusclops does a good job providing pressure + haze.
Not saying this team is any good but here's an example post-pex stall team (which also doesn't use fur scales) that clicks sub and protect for 47 turns and beats one of those sand teams going around: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1095527639 The opponent's team is literally 5 breakers + sandaconda and that wasn't enough to beat the pp stall prankster strategy.
This suggests to me it's regen and not pex that was the problem.
I'd more argue weather is an issue in that replay then regenerator. You cannot really pull that strategy off efficiently without the enhanced permanent recovery, I think?
It probably works in some instances, but you lose pp a lot faster and are forced into a lot more switches. I doubt you could efficiently counter strong breakers without the perma recovery.
For Sand Spit + Sand Rush, I would argue it follows the same guidelines for all the other speed doubling ability bans. It's near equal to instant setup since you need to be hit by any attack (instead of say contact only). For Sand Stream + Sand Rush (or any other weather combo), if you want to set up sand again, you can sack something as sand stream activates, bring in something that takes the hit as sand stream activates, or let what is in die and bring in something to start sand stream again. With Sand spit you achieve the same outcomes here, with the exception of what stays in and dies sets up the sand, but still leads to the same outcome and number of turns of weather for that turn. The exception is passive damage not activating the ability. However, if the opposing team is relying on passive damage (most likely pure stall), then the speed doubling is not needed anyways. And the issue with free speed doubling combos is you are forced to run it for any offensive build, otherwise you are outsped and swept. Same reason for all those other double speed ability combos being banned.
Arguments for what I say here is what about weak armor. That was an issue last time, but before defiant and competitive worked with the drop. Also that is individual pokemon, so each one has to restart. Rather than one pokemon setting up for success for the next as well if needed.
You could also say prankster+weather move. But the issue with that is you are taking up a valuable moveslot and a turn.
In conclusion, while the method for activation is slightly different, the outcome is the same as the other double speed ability combos.
I have already given my thoughts on Contrary here. Only thing to add is Contrary has become even stronger with the loss of Toxapex, who could barely manage to prankster haze. Other haze users don't fulfill the roles that Toxapex did and greatly restricts any stall build. So contrary becomes even more overwhelming with even fewer answers (Imposter, Unaware, good haze user banned). On top of that, one can run prankster+Contrary with taunt, stopping any prankster haze or recovery, making it even harder to live multiple hits while they fire off powerful moves AND Raising their stats. Prankster sub is not an answer either due to Infiltrator Dragapult. Again, for any non-standard meta, contrary proves to be overwhelming due to its benefits. Add onto that this meta has taken away many of the things that keep contrary manageable. And if anyone says how do you break through stall without contrary, it's the same as any other meta, you use stat boosting moves, stallbreakers, etc. You don't even have unaware anymore.
I am interested to see if regenerator was the issue or specifically toxapex. But I won't know for a bit since contrary has tipped the scales too much in my opinion. Only teams that have been near the top for the past couple days are mainly Contrary, Sand Rush, and Stall, proving how centralizing they are. With what is mentioned above gone, I think we can see a lot more variety in this metagame.
But lost interest currently with contrary (and to a lesser extent sand spit + sand rush) still being allowed. Might have to wait and see, as those two have become over-centralizing and too restrictive to team building.
how does pressure work in this OM? sometimes after I send out my pressure mon for the rest of my team, the opponent's damaging attacks still only use up 1 PP
how does pressure work in this OM? sometimes after I send out my pressure mon for the rest of my team, the opponent's damaging attacks still only use up 1 PP
how does pressure work in this OM? sometimes after I send out my pressure mon for the rest of my team, the opponent's damaging attacks still only use up 1 PP
It's also worth noting that Pressure in general doesn't quite interact properly with the info the simulator gives you on your opponents. When you hover over your opponent and see how much PP their moves have, that may not actually align with the amount of PP they have left; it's possible that Pressure is still working fine but this is being misreported. I may be mistaken, but I think this is a known bug even outside of Shared Power. I'm pretty sure I've observed it before in other formats.
For Sand Spit + Sand Rush, I would argue it follows the same guidelines for all the other speed doubling ability bans. It's near equal to instant setup since you need to be hit by any attack (instead of say contact only). For Sand Stream + Sand Rush (or any other weather combo), if you want to set up sand again, you can sack something as sand stream activates, bring in something that takes the hit as sand stream activates, or let what is in die and bring in something to start sand stream again. With Sand spit you achieve the same outcomes here, with the exception of what stays in and dies sets up the sand, but still leads to the same outcome and number of turns of weather for that turn. The exception is passive damage not activating the ability. However, if the opposing team is relying on passive damage (most likely pure stall), then the speed doubling is not needed anyways. And the issue with free speed doubling combos is you are forced to run it for any offensive build, otherwise you are outsped and swept. Same reason for all those other double speed ability combos being banned.
Arguments for what I say here is what about weak armor. That was an issue last time, but before defiant and competitive worked with the drop. Also that is individual pokemon, so each one has to restart. Rather than one pokemon setting up for success for the next as well if needed.
You could also say prankster+weather move. But the issue with that is you are taking up a valuable moveslot and a turn.
In conclusion, while the method for activation is slightly different, the outcome is the same as the other double speed ability combos.
I have already given my thoughts on Contrary here. Only thing to add is Contrary has become even stronger with the loss of Toxapex, who could barely manage to prankster haze. Other haze users don't fulfill the roles that Toxapex did and greatly restricts any stall build. So contrary becomes even more overwhelming with even fewer answers (Imposter, Unaware, good haze user banned). On top of that, one can run prankster+Contrary with taunt, stopping any prankster haze or recovery, making it even harder to live multiple hits while they fire off powerful moves AND Raising their stats. Prankster sub is not an answer either due to Infiltrator Dragapult. Again, for any non-standard meta, contrary proves to be overwhelming due to its benefits. Add onto that this meta has taken away many of the things that keep contrary manageable. And if anyone says how do you break through stall without contrary, it's the same as any other meta, you use stat boosting moves, stallbreakers, etc. You don't even have unaware anymore.
I am interested to see if regenerator was the issue or specifically toxapex. But I won't know for a bit since contrary has tipped the scales too much in my opinion. Only teams that have been near the top for the past couple days are mainly Contrary, Sand Rush, and Stall, proving how centralizing they are. With what is mentioned above gone, I think we can see a lot more variety in this metagame.
But lost interest currently with contrary (and to a lesser extent sand spit + sand rush) still being allowed. Might have to wait and see, as those two have become over-centralizing and too restrictive to team building.
I have seen a few things since yesterday
1. More creative teams-in general. I'm not saying there are more types of teams, there is literally only three now BUT, unlike before the regenerator there are way more varieties of teams. Instead of all the top teams basically having all the same strategies, way more have opened up. You now see more creative stall, 50 varieties of contrary, and some teams. that don't have anything to do with stall and contrary
2.Sand Rush is not broken all the time, depends on how good they are but Sand Rush can be beaten, also the argument, don't hit the mon and just poison it, sucks due to them killing you if you don't hit them, them getting a bunch of boosts if you do hit them, and most teams can be prepared for toxic with Immunity and, something I have seen a lot, is that most Excadrill's have rapid spin negating hazards.
3. No Contrary team is broken. There are so many contrary varieties now that one Contrary checks another and so on.(At least for other Contrary teams, If you use a different type of team then you might be in some hot water)
I have seen a few things since yesterday
1. More creative teams-in general. I'm not saying there are more types of teams, there is literally only three now BUT, unlike before the regenerator there are way more varieties of teams. Instead of all the top teams basically having all the same strategies, way more have opened up. You now see more creative stall, 50 varieties of contrary, and some teams. that don't have anything to do with stall and contrary
2.Sand Rush is not broken all the time, depends on how good they are but Sand Rush can be beaten, also the argument, don't hit the mon and just poison it, sucks due to them killing you if you don't hit them, them getting a bunch of boosts if you do hit them, and most teams can be prepared for toxic with Immunity and, something I have seen a lot, is that most Excadrill's have rapid spin negating hazards.
3. No Contrary team is broken. There are so many contrary varieties now that one Contrary checks another and so on.(At least for other Contrary teams, If you use a different type of team then you might be in some hot water)
No Contrary team is broken. There are so many contrary varieties now that one Contrary checks another and so on.(At least for other Contrary teams, If you use a different type of team then you might be in some hot water)
“It’s not broken because you can use it too” is the single worst anti-ban argument and a sure indicator that the thing described actually is broken. Contrary needs to go, immediately.
I feel like this is slowly drifting towards a RPS scenario but instead of having a perfect cycle you have like two main archetypes, namely stall and contrary, and willing to build anything else results in being bodied by these two. Haven't played too much Contrary myself so i can't say if Contrary beats stall or not. But have you seen how one sided a stall vs non-contrary offense match is ? I have absolutely no idea how to reach a kinda balanced metagame. Contrary should probably go, but please god don't even talk about bringing back Unaware. I cannot describe how frustrating that was.
I've seen some new stuff too (in stall that is) and on the one hand i'm delighted, but on the other i'm terrified. I tested playing a random FurCoat in Guts/Hustle HO and let me tell you that stuff is unhealthy. I think i could even run Ice Scales on my Quick Feet mon to not be able to lose to the very large majority of offensive teams. Contrary would be the only way to beat it, or setup maybe. Imagine having to setup on an offensive team to hit hard enough to kill another offense. FurScales feels unhealthy to play as even more than against as an Offense player. It's like you just can't die most of the time. You can just stay in on an Excadrill, tank his hit with ease and KO it back. I know everyone feels like it's necessary, and for a good reason. But will it reach 80% usage like P-Don or like something that should have been banned for a long time ? I'm starting to wonder if stuff like Hustle, Guts, Tough Claws and Adaptability should be banned at the same time as FurScales to get away from this spiral. It depends on weather the spiral is downwards or upwards and i can't tell right now.
After more gameplay, I think that Toxapex was not the main issue behind FurScales stall, just one of its main offenders. Reuniclus has already taken its place and does most of its job just as well.
A core part of this metagame is carefully planning your switches around so you can time when to get your abilities on the field. With FurScales, there are almost no downsides to leading Persian and using Parting Shot into Frosmoth literally 100% of the time. It's a free double Cosmic Power that can't be crit through or hazed away.
This player played well, but they really showcased how frankly stupid doubling defenses is. Dusclops is bulky enough to the point where it can freely sacrifice half of its health with Curse to trap my Pokemon. Prankster Rest is the cherry on top, shoring up Dusclops's main issue as a support Pokemon (always going last and therefore being unable to recover). Curse was designed as a gimmick move that traded high risk for high reward, and Dusclops eliminated that risk by being the single bulkiest pokemon I have ever seen.
Here's a fun calc showing how absurdly bulky Raid Boss Dusclops is:
252 SpA Choice Specs STAB Pixilate Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ice Scales Dusclops: 97-114 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs STAB Pixilate Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus-Eternamax: 214-253 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
Not only does Dusclops not care about wallbreakers, it also doesn't care about setup due to prankster Haze. Additionally, it can always switch out due to regenerator.
Additionally, notice how Persian and Frostmoth did literally nothing during that match. Or in almost every FurScales match. They're dead weight attached to the two best abilities in the format. Like I said in a previous post, if these abilities were only available on literally worthless pokemon, like Luvdisc and Ledian, they would still be used constantly on this team and put in just as much work.
This is just one specific match I'm highlighting. FurScales is unfun to play against, and is an oppressive force on the metagame. Carrying taunt on multiple Pokemon doesn't work because of Prankster, getting hazards up isn't effective due to Regenerator, and Wallbreakers (both choiced and setup) cannot get past the absurd bulk of the team members. Banning Toxapex helped, but was ultimately ineffective in nerfing FurScales stall. The best ways to deal with it are all easily dealt with due to the free switches FurScales provides, and the easy methods of dealing with its checks. I firmly believe there needs to be a ban on an aspect of Furscales.
Ideas:
1. Ban Fur Coat + Ice Scales: Simple and not too restrictive. This will let Persian or Frosmoth provide team support for a team that needs a more reliable way to check either physical or special attackers. Personally, this is my preffered method of dealing with this issue.
2. Ban Fur Coat + Regenerator and Ice Scales + Regenerator: This lets teambuilders choose between impenetrable defenses, or unlimited healing.
3. Ban Fur Coat and Ice Scales: They are pretty broken abilities, after all. I don't like this solution that much, but it is an option.
After more gameplay, I think that Toxapex was not the main issue behind FurScales stall, just one of its main offenders. Reuniclus has already taken its place and does most of its job just as well.
A core part of this metagame is carefully planning your switches around so you can time when to get your abilities on the field. With FurScales, there are almost no downsides to leading Persian and using Parting Shot into Frosmoth literally 100% of the time. It's a free double Cosmic Power that can't be crit through or hazed away.
This player played well, but they really showcased how frankly stupid doubling defenses is. Dusclops is bulky enough to the point where it can freely sacrifice half of its health with Curse to trap my Pokemon. Prankster Rest is the cherry on top, shoring up Dusclops's main issue as a support Pokemon (always going last and therefore being unable to recover). Curse was designed as a gimmick move that traded high risk for high reward, and Dusclops eliminated that risk by being the single bulkiest pokemon I have ever seen.
Here's a fun calc showing how absurdly bulky Raid Boss Dusclops is:
252 SpA Choice Specs STAB Pixilate Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ice Scales Dusclops: 97-114 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs STAB Pixilate Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus-Eternamax: 214-253 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
Not only does Dusclops not care about wallbreakers, it also doesn't care about setup due to prankster Haze. Additionally, it can always switch out due to regenerator.
Additionally, notice how Persian and Frostmoth did literally nothing during that match. Or in almost every FurScales match. They're dead weight attached to the two best abilities in the format. Like I said in a previous post, if these abilities were only available on literally worthless pokemon, like Luvdisc and Ledian, they would still be used constantly on this team and put in just as much work.
This is just one specific match I'm highlighting. FurScales is unfun to play against, and is an oppressive force on the metagame. Carrying taunt on multiple Pokemon doesn't work because of Prankster, getting hazards up isn't effective due to Regenerator, and Wallbreakers (both choiced and setup) cannot get past the absurd bulk of the team members. Banning Toxapex helped, but was ultimately ineffective in nerfing FurScales stall. The best ways to deal with it are all easily dealt with due to the free switches FurScales provides, and the easy methods of dealing with its checks. I firmly believe there needs to be a ban on an aspect of Furscales.
Ideas:
1. Ban Fur Coat + Ice Scales: Simple and not too restrictive. This will let Persian or Frosmoth provide team support for a team that needs a more reliable way to check either physical or special attackers. Personally, this is my preffered method of dealing with this issue.
2. Ban Fur Coat + Regenerator and Ice Scales + Regenerator: This lets teambuilders choose between impenetrable defenses, or unlimited healing.
3. Ban Fur Coat and Ice Scales: They are pretty broken abilities, after all. I don't like this solution that much, but it is an option.
Eldegloss has regenerator, god help us all. Furscales with technician with regenerator with skill link though, My contrary teams are dyin against these monsters
I was reading this forum, along with playing ladder, and testing the sleeper pick known as mudsdale. He is excellent in stall, as he is in my opinion, the best rocker the metagame has to offer for stall. Not only does he provide rocks, he gives you stamina and when played along with a fairy type like grimmsnarl, he completely shuts down most contrary teams with stamina alone. I saw many people running marvel scale for stall, but it just seems inferior to stamina because you have to carry flame orb and take burn damage every turn just for the immediate bulk in return. Mudsdale definitely allows the whole team to wall the likes of any contrary physical attacker because it just boosts up with them. Paired with furscales this mon has no bounds.
https://pokepast.es/7af9609f8927b8ab
Here's how this team work, pretty simple
1. You do the Furscales
2. Do the ferrothorn and eldegloss
3. Do the grapploct
4. Sweep with Cloyster
(Assembly may be required)
You got regenerator so switch out often
Honestly, until Contrary is banned, or Unaware is unbanned this metagame is pretty much unplayable, and I think the vast majority of people would agree with me.
There really is no "defensive" counterplay, and all offensive counterplay is either being banned or is nullified by Tsareena. Even if those counterplays weren't being banned, Contrary teams can just abuse them.
1. Defensive Counterplay hardly exists, thanks to Contrary being just 1 ability.
The best "defensive" counterplay is to just use prankster+Haze (which is only viable on Stall teams), but being that Contrary is 1 ability, you have your 5 teammates deal with any hazers.
Stacking offensive non-contrary abilities is pretty much second nature in this metagame. Once all the abilities are stacked, all the Contrary team needs to do is KO your own Hazer(s). As soon as they are gone, you nearly autolose, with your only chance of winning being to hope your opponent misses multiple time, typically is 8 PP per Overheat, Leaf Storm, and Draco Meteor, and your opponent may have multiple of them. And that's if their Super Power user lacks coverage for Ghost types.
Also, you should basically autolose as Stall if your opponent has Kyurem and adaptability, as Kyurem's Specs Draco Meteor does 39%-46%, and Freeze-Dry just 2HKOs Pex as well for preserving Draco PP.
With how easy it is to snowball a win, even if you are losing, it's surprising that the Q&A states "Yes. Incineroar will still continue to share Intimidate, even after it faints. This is to avoid battles turning into snowballs once a Pokemon has been fainted." since that is what full Contrary teams do.
2. Offensive Counterplay is either being banned, can be used by Contrary teams, or is nullified by teammate
Basically, if you can't tank them, outspeed them.
That is easier said than done, however. With Unburden/Speed Boost banned, Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Slush Rush being effectively banned, and people asking for Sand Rush+Sand Spit to be banned, the only other option is to use priority.
Problem also there as Tsareena coming out complete nullifies priority as a whole. So when Tsareena is out on the field at all, you are out of luck if your team is slower than their fastest Pokemon, which likely will be Dragapult or Zeraora, the 3rd and 4th fastest Pokemon available (the 2 ahead of them being Accelgor (who also was nerfed with the unburden ban) and Ninjask (which is nerfed by the Speed Boost ban and is also entirely outclassed by Dragapult)).
Even if we revert the speed ability bans/restrictions, Contrary teams can just run those speed abilities, besides Speed Boost. If you have the same weather, or they have E-terrain/Unburden, then most matches would be decided by a speed tie between 2 Dragapults, and the non-contrary team winning that speed tie would just be relieved of not being swapped by the opposing Dragapult, while the contrary team pretty much wins that exchange, as stated earlier, Contrary snowballs really hard and really fast.
What else is there? Trick Room?
Maybe, but again, Contrary teams can also run Trick Room as well, and Trick Room requires you to get hit. You would need to finish your opponent off early if you want to have a chance of winning, as your Pokemon can then be KO'd after the chip damage, which then prevents you from doing anything as they boost up every hit.
3. Non-Contrary teams require multiple slots to just check the ability itself
Like I said before, the closest that exists to counterplay to Contrary is Haze+Prankster and naturally outspeeding their fastest Pokemon.
But why exactly should every slower team be required to have 2-4 slots dedicated to just resetting their boosts, which can easily be broken by the numerous amount of wall breakers Contrary teams can choose from?
As stated before, even Max SpD Pex with Ice Scales hardly beat specs Adapt Kyurem. If Kyurem uses Draco Meteor, you better hope Toxapex is at full health (you also will be alternating between Haze and Recover too), and if it uses Freeze-Dry, your Toxapex is forced out.
Keep in mind that you need Ice Scales, Prankster, and in this case Toxapex for Slower teams to not instantly die if their opponent has Kyurem (or a lot of different wall breakers tbh).
4. Needing to plan carefully around your opponent while your opponent just unga bungas isn't competitive (and its even less fun)
Contrary was an ability made in Gen 5, and over the past decade has been handed out scarcely to Pokemon that are so bad that they are typically reach NU at best. This is due to how absurdly powerful it is if it were in the hands of a decent Pokemon (I mean Serperior was in OU before, but it would definitely be PU material without contrary and is only higher than the other contrary users because of its speed and utility).
Even in the source code of Showdown, Contrary is rated as a 4.5, above the level of usefulness of Magic Bounce and Magic Guard.
This is because Contrary conceptually not only nullifies a strong drawback to powerful moves like Leaf Storm, it actually reverses that drawback to be a positive.
Honestly, Contrary fundamentally is a terrible ability (as in experience, not viability), similarly to the post mechanic of Gen 8, Dynamax.
It rewards you for Spam and for being dumb (although with team preview, it doesn't punish you for making smart plays like Dynamax does, as smart play would involve not setting webs against contrary and baiting serperior into a strong flying attack when they expect a Defog).
The only thing holding Contrary back normally is its distribution.
But this is Shared Power, where distribution hardly matters, and you can not only put something as inherently broken as Contrary on anything, you can put other abilities like Sand Stream, Quick Feet, Scrappy, Queenly Majesty, Guts, ect. as well.
Even without V-Create, Contrary is just inherently an uncompetitive ability, forcing you to think out 20 steps ahead with 100s of possibilities, while the Contrary team just spams high BP moves that only get stronger the more you use them.
Alrighty, I'm going to add some input in the discussion of Regenerator, Contrary, and Fur Coat + Ice Scales after another day of playing with the Toxapex ban in place. I've been using Mareanie and it fills the same role Toxapex did of be a switch-in and use Prankster Haze; I haven't even needed to try other Regenerator mons yet though I will probably make some more varying builds tomorrow. Anyways here's what I was rolling with today:
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
I decided to make a stall team that is very focused on anti-stall, which has so for recorded about a 50/50 of either netting a win or a tie in the Stall v Stall matchup. Hasn't lost to stall thanks to Regenerator and the combination of Alolan Persian and Mew for teams using trappers (notice how Persian has U-turn and Parting Shot in order to deal with Pressure builds). Just gonna make short bullet points about my findings so it's easy to read.
Mareanie fulfills the same role that Toxapex did on this team without much of a hiccup.
0 issues with Contrary builds thus far since my mons naturally resist the most potent abusers.
Stall matchup depends on my opponents build to some degree, though with a tiny bit of outplaying and patience you can break through most builds.
Both Sand Spit and Quick Feet offense aren't too difficult to manage for stall, but both are extremely centralizing when it comes to offense builds.
Fur Coat + Ice Scales is not necessary to have a successful stall team.
Which brings me to what I want to discuss in this post: Regenerator vs. Toxapex, Contrary, and Fur Coat + Ice Scales.
To be frank, I think the Toxapex ban has not changed anything in the meta besides people trying other Regenerator mons. In my case I've decided to use Mareanie over other options because I like its utility for the builds I've been working on lately but realistically the Regenerator mon itself doesn't make a huge difference. I mean I have literally dropped hazard removal from my Levitate stall builds because there's realistically no point in even running Defog because I'm simply not getting pressured by opposing teams and Regenerator will give me enough HP back anyways that even if I take Stealth Rock damage, Weather damage, and status damage it has no real impact on my team's performance. Pressure has been a notable discussion point as of late in combination with Regenerator and other stall abilities but here's the problem with that. Unless Pressure builds have a trapper, there's no reason to even use a move when you have Regenerator. The Pressure team has set-up mons? I have two mons with Prankster Haze. The Pressure team has a trapper? I have Alolan Persian and Mew to constantly switch out to the point that I'm PP stalling the person using Pressure. Pressure is insanely easy to play around and I'm going to be completely real here, it's insanely beatable with offensive and stall builds. Even with 2 dedicated trappers on my team the matchup against Regenerator can still be exhausting from the constant switching into the hundreds of turns every other game. At the end of the day I think the evidence of the meta without Toxapex still being focused around the same builds is indicative of Regenerator's insane strength, and I think stall has a chance of being successful without Regenerator. I also think this is a similar case to that of Unburden where we are overlooking the real issue here. Unban Toxapex and Ban Regenerator.
Contrary! Now I personally have not struggled with Contrary unless I was testing some random fun offense builds, but I've noticed how dangerous it can be. Saying that Prankster Haze beats it is great and all, but only stall builds can run sets like that. Offense and Balance simply have to hope that they can do whatever setup they need to do in order to not just get swept by whatever Quick Feet/Sand Rush + Flare Boost + Adaptability + Queenly Majesty using monster comes charging full-steam at them. This, simply put, is not healthy. Is there a counter to this strategy? Sure, there is. However it's not a counter that allows for diversity in playstyle or team composition. I see where this ability is extremely volatile and it is not necessary to beat other playstyles. I think it just needs to go. Ban Contrary.
Lastly we get to Fur Coat + Ice Scales. I've discussed these abilities before and I'll restate my stance on this matter. I think these abilities are very necessary for this meta in order to not let this OM devolve into a Hyper Offense shitshow. With this in mind, I think that the idea of making a combination ban on Fur Coat/Fluffy + Ice Scales is not a farfetched idea. I've already found success using a stall team that doesn't rely on Ice Scales, thanks in part to the current restrictiveness of teambuilding in the meta, and I've seen people dropping one of these abilities as well in their Stall and Balance builds. I personally don't think Fur Coat + Ice Scales is too powerful and that Regenerator makes this combination seem much stronger than it really is, but I think a ban on the combination of the abilities that boost both defenses seems like a fair discussion point. At the least it could provide for an interesting meta shift. I do not think that these abilities nor the combination should be banned at this point in time, but this should be on the radar following a ban on Regenerator and Contrary depending on how the new meta shapes up.
A final note, but I noticed how somebody mentioned that the meta is sort of in a state of RPS currently and I would say this isn't too far from the truth. Basically you either run Contrary speed-boosted Offense, passive Stall, or anti-stall Stall. Nothing else is going to find much success right now and change is needed.
Alrighty, I'm going to add some input in the discussion of Regenerator, Contrary, and Fur Coat + Ice Scales after another day of playing with the Toxapex ban in place. I've been using Mareanie and it fills the same role Toxapex did of be a switch-in and use Prankster Haze; I haven't even needed to try other Regenerator mons yet though I will probably make some more varying builds tomorrow. Anyways here's what I was rolling with today:
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
I decided to make a stall team that is very focused on anti-stall, which has so for recorded about a 50/50 of either netting a win or a tie in the Stall v Stall matchup. Hasn't lost to stall thanks to Regenerator and the combination of Alolan Persian and Mew for teams using trappers (notice how Persian has U-turn and Parting Shot in order to deal with Pressure builds). Just gonna make short bullet points about my findings so it's easy to read.
Mareanie fulfills the same role that Toxapex did on this team without much of a hiccup.
0 issues with Contrary builds thus far since my mons naturally resist the most potent abusers.
Stall matchup depends on my opponents build to some degree, though with a tiny bit of outplaying and patience you can break through most builds.
Both Sand Spit and Quick Feet offense aren't too difficult to manage for stall, but both are extremely centralizing when it comes to offense builds.
Fur Coat + Ice Scales is not necessary to have a successful stall team.
Which brings me to what I want to discuss in this post: Regenerator vs. Toxapex, Contrary, and Fur Coat + Ice Scales.
To be frank, I think the Toxapex ban has not changed anything in the meta besides people trying other Regenerator mons. In my case I've decided to use Mareanie over other options because I like its utility for the builds I've been working on lately but realistically the Regenerator mon itself doesn't make a huge difference. I mean I have literally dropped hazard removal from my Levitate stall builds because there's realistically no point in even running Defog because I'm simply not getting pressured by opposing teams and Regenerator will give me enough HP back anyways that even if I take Stealth Rock damage, Weather damage, and status damage it has no real impact on my team's performance. Pressure has been a notable discussion point as of late in combination with Regenerator and other stall abilities but here's the problem with that. Unless Pressure builds have a trapper, there's no reason to even use a move when you have Regenerator. The Pressure team has set-up mons? I have two mons with Prankster Haze. The Pressure team has a trapper? I have Alolan Persian and Mew to constantly switch out to the point that I'm PP stalling the person using Pressure. Pressure is insanely easy to play around and I'm going to be completely real here, it's insanely beatable with offensive and stall builds. Even with 2 dedicated trappers on my team the matchup against Regenerator can still be exhausting from the constant switching into the hundreds of turns every other game. At the end of the day I think the evidence of the meta without Toxapex still being focused around the same builds is indicative of Regenerator's insane strength, and I think stall has a chance of being successful without Regenerator. I also think this is a similar case to that of Unburden where we are overlooking the real issue here. Unban Toxapex and Ban Regenerator.
Contrary! Now I personally have not struggled with Contrary unless I was testing some random fun offense builds, but I've noticed how dangerous it can be. Saying that Prankster Haze beats it is great and all, but only stall builds can run sets like that. Offense and Balance simply have to hope that they can do whatever setup they need to do in order to not just get swept by whatever Quick Feet/Sand Rush + Flare Boost + Adaptability + Queenly Majesty using monster comes charging full-steam at them. This, simply put, is not healthy. Is there a counter to this strategy? Sure, there is. However it's not a counter that allows for diversity in playstyle or team composition. I see where this ability is extremely volatile and it is not necessary to beat other playstyles. I think it just needs to go. Ban Contrary.
Lastly we get to Fur Coat + Ice Scales. I've discussed these abilities before and I'll restate my stance on this matter. I think these abilities are very necessary for this meta in order to not let this OM devolve into a Hyper Offense shitshow. With this in mind, I think that the idea of making a combination ban on Fur Coat/Fluffy + Ice Scales is not a farfetched idea. I've already found success using a stall team that doesn't rely on Ice Scales, thanks in part to the current restrictiveness of teambuilding in the meta, and I've seen people dropping one of these abilities as well in their Stall and Balance builds. I personally don't think Fur Coat + Ice Scales is too powerful and that Regenerator makes this combination seem much stronger than it really is, but I think a ban on the combination of the abilities that boost both defenses seems like a fair discussion point. At the least it could provide for an interesting meta shift. I do not think that these abilities nor the combination should be banned at this point in time, but this should be on the radar following a ban on Regenerator and Contrary depending on how the new meta shapes up.
A final note, but I noticed how somebody mentioned that the meta is sort of in a state of RPS currently and I would say this isn't too far from the truth. Basically you either run Contrary speed-boosted Offense, passive Stall, or anti-stall Stall. Nothing else is going to find much success right now and change is needed.
I agree on the regenerator ban, Pex wasn't the issue. Since the ban, all of the teams that used it have just swapped it out for Reuniclus, Toxapex Junior, or even Eldegoss, with little to no other changes.
This metagame is probably one of the most broken things I've seen on Showdown, but also very fun since you can build a team that basically nothing can beat, except for some very specific counters.
Here is the team I got top of the ladder with:
Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off
Team explanation:
If you know what you're doing it's insanely hard to actually lose with this team. There is one specific counter I've found in Contrary mons that are not choiced, as some member will always wall and phase/haze/kill them if they are. Otherwise you basically either win or at least tie against the entire metagame from my experience. Obviously missplaying might cost you a game or two, but stall usually doesn't require too much skillful play.
If you want to beat non-choiced Contrary mons you could replace Celebi with a counter, Regenerator usually works against status anyways. Something such as Pressure Corviknight with Protect can help you outstall Draco Meteor PP for example.
Roles of the Mons:
Ferrothorn walls choiced Contrary abusers and sets up spikes. Spikes are essential for chipping offensive teams and winning against other Furscales stall. It can kill common Defoggers such as Heavy-Duty-Boots Frosmoth and revenge kill a Dragapult locked into Draco with Gyro.
Iron Barbs + Rocky helmet chip helps with killing any physical threats, as well as punishing Persians Knock-Off and stray U-turns.
Celebi is here because of Natural Cure, it doesn't wall anything special. Even Natural Cure could be replaced with a Pressure Mon for example, however not taking burn/toxic chip is always nice, especially against Corrosive Toxic teams. Pressure isn't that good in the current state of this metagame since any team you might want to PP stall is also easily countered by simply switching until one of you makes enough mistakes 300 turns in, or until the game ties.
Persian-Alola has amazing utility in Taunt and Knock Off, which help a great deal against all the stall populating the higher ranked ladder. The ability in Fur Coat is mandatory on any good stall team and turns your mons into defensive behemoths, shrugging off Guts boosted +1 threats and phasing them into your hazards. Another huge benefit of this mon is its Dark typing, as it can deny Defog and other status moves against teams with Prankster, pressuring them with hazards until they find a way to kill the cat, which is usually insanely hard as the Defoggers can't break through Ice Scales + Regenerators most of the time. Frosmoth especially does not want to stay in on a Knock Off, since without Boots it won't be able to sit on Ferro anymore without risking death to hazards.
I do not know why they thought Pex specifically was the problem mon, however there exists something with the exact same movepool and ability as our banned fellow. Mareanie checks too many threats to even count since Haze is an amazing move and can threaten stall with Knock Off. Even the burn here and there might prove useful should your opponent lack a Natural Cure mon. Regenerator keeps your mons unkillable, even if you switch into rocks and a couple of layers of Spikes until you can Defog with Frosmoth.
Frosmoth is here because of Ice Scales, and threatens some dragons in the metagame with its decent special bulk. If Frosmoth is your only Defogger, you are bascially required to keep it out of a Knock Off, as it will most likely cost you the game should your opponent play a stall with spikes. U-turn is nice for not getting trapped by Mean Look users that have popped up here and there to counter the rampant stall. Quiver Dance is a poor choice in my opinion, since thanks to opposing Ice Scales Frosmoth simply can't deal any significant damage to other stall teams, and it dies quickly to the offensive threats in the metagame.
Hippodown was suprisingly useful in basically any game. Whirlwind is huge in phasing physical threats that try to set up with Bulk Up, Superpower or anything similar. Hippo doesn't even need to switch on a lot of special threats that might want to try and ramp up Contrary stacks such as most Dragons and things such as Rotom-Heat. Slack Off to keep it healthy if you need to stay in, Rocks because that's basically your way of dealing damage. Sandstorms 6% might not look huge on paper, but since you have basically a 100% uptime on it the damage will stick, and it helps fight rain stall with Hydration Rest. It is a necessity on this type of team.
Improving the metagame:
Contary to popular belief, banning Regenerator is not enough in my opinion. There are many ways stall can survive the chip of offensive teams, Rest + Natural Cure being one of them. The main problem exists in Furscales, since it gives every stall team the defensive capabilities to easily shrugg off hits of otherwise insane offensive threats. These teams usually have to dedicate multiple abilities and items just to negate the defensive effects Furscales has on all of your mons by default, giving stall a strength unseen in the regular OU metagame.
This metagame could be a lot of fun if we banned Furscales alone, right now stall dominates the meta and makes every game either 300 turns long or a gamble for having the very specific counter you need to break all of the different stall variants.
In fact sand spit + rush is the main problem. most people say contrary but every time my contrary team faces sand I lose. There is no counterplay except maybe scarf accelgor with final gambit to take out the fastest mon your opponent have and then you still have to deal with all the other pokemons. Sticky web might help but levitate kills it and contrary makes it good for them. Fur Coat may be the only counter to it as most abusers are physical (Terrakion, Excadrill, Dugtrio-Alola). Even then there still are some special mons to surprise countering sets. Ban Sand Spit + Rush. It is more threatening than Contrary and its everywhere. Without Unburden there is nearly zero counters (except Glare but Sandaconda also have it and maybe Psycho Shift or Synchronize to counter Sandaconda but he is the least of your worries).
In fact sand spit + rush is the main problem. most people say contrary but every time my contrary team faces sand I lose. There is no counterplay except maybe scarf accelgor with final gambit to take out the fastest mon your opponent have and then you still have to deal with all the other pokemons. Sticky web might help but levitate kills it and contrary makes it good for them. Fur Coat may be the only counter to it as most abusers are physical (Terrakion, Excadrill, Dugtrio-Alola). Even then there still are some special mons to surprise countering sets. Ban Sand Spit + Rush. It is more threatening than Contrary and its everywhere. Without Unburden there is nearly zero counters (except Glare but Sandaconda also have it and maybe Psycho Shift or Synchronize to counter Sandaconda but he is the least of your worries).
In fact sand spit + rush is the main problem. most people say contrary but every time my contrary team faces sand I lose. There is no counterplay except maybe scarf accelgor with final gambit to take out the fastest mon your opponent have and then you still have to deal with all the other pokemons. Sticky web might help but levitate kills it and contrary makes it good for them. Fur Coat may be the only counter to it as most abusers are physical (Terrakion, Excadrill, Dugtrio-Alola). Even then there still are some special mons to surprise countering sets. Ban Sand Spit + Rush. It is more threatening than Contrary and its everywhere. Without Unburden there is nearly zero counters (except Glare but Sandaconda also have it and maybe Psycho Shift or Synchronize to counter Sandaconda but he is the least of your worries).
Sand Spit+Sand Stream is one of the few actual “counters” to Contrary (as long as that Contrary team doesn’t also have SpitStream too).
If your opponent didn’t have that speed control, their team would be dead by team preview.
