Metagame Shared Power

[Lewi11]

Thank you The Immortal, the metagame is slowly becoming more fun with the bans you're making!

I have a few things to add:

Contrary: I'll miss it, but it was way to dominant so good choice.

Regenerator: Quite frankly this is broken atm. Can't get through it and if you set up, haze ruins your life.

Dry Skin + Rain Dish: In relation to Regenerator, when added to this mix, the stall combo is almost unbeatable, here's a replay explaining what I mean:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096305659
Don't get me wrong, my team could be improved or be a better match up to it, but it's way to difficult to break this kind of wall of a team in any case..

FurScales: Again, in relation to the previous abilities I've mentioned and this kind of stall is possible without FurScales, I don't think FurScales is a problem.

Stamina: I have tried this tactic out too with Regenerator and it is way too strong. In combination with Body Press and FurScales, it's so hard to break through it. I don't think it should be banned but I think maybe some sort of ban regarding using it with other things? I'm not sure.

Serene Grace: I see the issue but it can be defeated with Paralysis or Priority moves like Extreme-Speed so I don't think it should be banned yet just from fear it will be OP. In fact I beat a Serene Grace team using my priority team in the replay above.

Pressure: I respect the way it works, but for me battling is no longer exciting if it's just a war on pp? No creatiivity, just boring play imo. I think personally it should be BANNED but that's just my opinion, don't hate! But there's no denying how potent it is in combination with other stall-based abilities
Dusclops seems to be an issue atm. I suggest Pressure be BANNED.
I've used one with the team here:
Eldegoss @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Rapid Spin
- Aromatherapy

Mudsdale @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Press
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Body Press
- Protect

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Feather Dance

Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Drain Punch
- Pain Split
- Taunt

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split


In conclusion, I think there should be a BAN on using Dry Skin + Rain Dish together and an outright BAN of Regenerator (bring back Toxapex in this case). Pressure should be looked at and maybe Stamina too.

:)

 

[Oublié]

I'd seen someone use the same leppa recycle strategy, but paired with block to pp-stall, earlier this month. Unaware definitely made it more viable, but I must admit this team's funnier. Somehow I enjoy watching their matches, it's so satisfying whenever someone takes that Mew down. Why leppa recycle has ever been allowed in any meta is a mystery to me, but it definitely makes for good trolling.

 

[TexanSansei]

I'd seen someone use the same leppa recycle strategy, but paired with block to pp-stall, earlier this month. Unaware definitely made it more viable, but I must admit this team's funnier. Somehow I enjoy watching their matches, it's so satisfying whenever someone takes that Mew down. Why leppa recycle has ever been allowed in any meta is a mystery to me, but it definitely makes for good trolling.

Deleted it cause i decided the forum didn't need my up playing of that meme team, was definetely funny though
Anyway it's even funnier if you forget to set obstacles, and then they just ifini-switch to save PP, that's happened to me.

 

[PokaPK]

An ode to banning regenerator ASAP:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096523433

 

[alephgalactus]

Yet another addition to the long list of reasons to ban Regenerator:

Sand Rush was flat-out banned because two complex bans for it was too much, which is a move I agreed with and was advocating for during the Sand Spit era. Regenerator is currently the subject of two complex bans. If we want to keep our banning standards consistent, Regenerator should be banned.

 

[Cuddly]

You know, a lot of teams supposedly are having trouble with Regenerator, and Stall in general.
It made me think about how to punish those teams for switching constantly.
Then I remembered.

Beheeyem and its pre-evolution are the only Pokemon currently to have the ability Analytic, which can be shared among its peers (and unfortunately there is no Stackout either, but that would likely be banned)
In case you didn’t know, Analytic does indeed increase the power of your attacks when you move last.
This includes when your opponent switches.
I have been using a team with Analytic with other boosts, and that extra 1.3x boost to all moves is great and dealing with constant Regenerator healing. It’s essentially a free Life Orb, and when combined with Sheer Force+Actual Life Orb, you get a x2.197 boost to all your attacks with secondary effects, as long as they switch or are faster.
It’s pretty great for Special Attackers since most of their moves have secondary effects already.

 

[Darth]

You know, a lot of teams supposedly are having trouble with Regenerator, and Stall in general.
It made me think about how to punish those teams for switching constantly.
Then I remembered.

Beheeyem and its pre-evolution are the only Pokemon currently to have the ability Analytic, which can be shared among its peers (and unfortunately there is no Stackout either, but that would likely be banned)
In case you didn’t know, Analytic does indeed increase the power of your attacks when you move last.
This includes when your opponent switches.
I have been using a team with Analytic with other boosts, and that extra 1.3x boost to all moves is great and dealing with constant Regenerator healing. It’s essentially a free Life Orb, and when combined with Sheer Force+Actual Life Orb, you get a x2.197 boost to all your attacks with secondary effects, as long as they switch or are faster.
It’s pretty great for Special Attackers since most of their moves have secondary effects already.

You'd almost think that the meta has plenty of options to incorporate new ideas to punish supposedly "too strong" teams.
This + trapping pokemon neuter regenerator to the point it barely has a way of surviving let alone dominate. It's why I get so annoyed about seeing people just hate on regenerator.

alephgalactus the regenerator complex ban is a complex ban because it enables an infinite loop, nothing else. The comparison you're drawing is plain deceitful.

The mere idea Regenerator is broken stems from a complete ignoring of every form of counterplay to regenerator you could bring. There are partial trapping moves, perma-trapping moves, trapping status moves, analytic, set up is more potent now that prankhaze is less common (not to mention less good without pex anyways), but yes, all this requires building a team that has a chance in the meta. It requires time. Something which nobody seems to be willing to give this meta.

 

[The Immortal]

An ode to banning regenerator ASAP:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096523433

I don't see how this replay proves that Regenerator should be banned? Dude had two opportunities to Smash again. Not only that, his team wasn't prepared for Regenerator in the slightest, or even any of the other strategies currently common in the metagame such as Guts + Quick Feet. It's just 6 mons put together that don't really accomplish anything.

 

[Darth]

An ode to banning regenerator ASAP:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096523433

This was very painful to watch. Cloyster sweeps 4 mons with 0 effort; makes very dumb plays, Crawdaunt doesnt click knock for confirmed kill, yet somehow regenerator is the issue.

 

[Qiyanna's thighs]

I never knew how much I'd miss contrary until it was actually banned. Good night my babies ;'{

Kurt Angle (Machamp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Mega Kick
- Stone Edge
- Darkest Lariat

Mark Henry (Conkeldurr) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

Yare Yare Daze (Malamar) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Facade
- Psycho Cut
- Knock Off

Hit em very hard (Dracovish) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Dragon Rush
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs

Uh Oh, Stinky (Durant) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Facade
- X-Scissor

 

[MTB'er Ben]

Opp had a recycle leppa berry Mew and frens that my particular offense couldn't break...would banning recycle or leppa berry be worth looking into? There doesn't seem to be an Endless Battle Clause. Thankfully a draw was made after almost 150 turns.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096685809

 

[Hematite]

Opp had a recycle leppa berry Mew and frens that my particular offense couldn't break...would banning recycle or leppa berry be worth looking into? There doesn't seem to be an Endless Battle Clause. Thankfully a draw was made after almost 150 turns.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096685809

There is an endless battle clause, but this doesn't violate it. Unlike a set like Funbro, your opponent wasn't doing anything to stop you from losing, which is what makes endless battles uncompetitive. A stall that you can't break is just... effective.
I notice that this team has no way to stop you from raising your stats - no Prankster, no Haze, no Topsy Turvy - so that's one way to bypass the Defense buffs. For that matter, this Mew would also be unable to use any moves through Taunt and would be forced to Struggle.
The problem is that you don't have either of those. I think your team just needs a stallbreaker - something designed to take advantage of overly passive opponents like this - and the fact that you didn't isn't really grounds to ban Recycle so much as something to consider when building your team.
That said, this does look pretty evil.

 

[alephgalactus]

Opp had a recycle leppa berry Mew and frens that my particular offense couldn't break...would banning recycle or leppa berry be worth looking into? There doesn't seem to be an Endless Battle Clause. Thankfully a draw was made after almost 150 turns.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1096685809

It’s certainly possible to break through—I managed it with Taunt plus a trapping move, which is apparently an instalose judging from the reaction.

 

[MTB'er Ben]

It’s certainly possible to break through—I managed it with Taunt plus a trapping move, which is apparently an instalose judging from the reaction.

Fair enough along with post above yours. Just gotta whip up something new I suppose.

 

[Spicy Boii]

I had to post my imput on the regenerator debate. After some testing and observations post fur coat ban, I really noticed stall at arguably, its lowest effectiveness in the history of this metagame. Many of these problems are the result of the fur coat ban. Although at first the ban doesn’t seem extremely detrimental to stall, however, a quick look at how teambuilding has to adapt to this ban shows its influence on the archetype.

1. The need for fire resist,
Personally, what I saw is the need for a flash fire mon on your team. Through observations you can probably get away without using a flash fire mon because the fire types are not that good this gen. The problem occurs when you face the one team on the ladder with a darmanitan, sweeping your whole team in 10 turns. This problem goes both ways, because when you do end up using a flash fire mon, they usually become deadweight and useless 90% of matches.

2. Long Reach
Long reach can 6-0 your team. I dont care how great your stall is, if someone uses guts + adaptability + hustle + sheer force + long reach (might be exaggerated), and they have at least the IQ of a five year old, than your done. They are essentially getting boosted by at least three abilities while long reach makes your stall team be boosted by none. This is insanely broken and stamina cant save you if you get ohkoed every turn. I already know someone is gonna say “USe MaRVel ScaLe”. Not a valid point considering you lose your item slot and take burn damage along with needing to burn another slot on your team. If you have a flash fire mon on your team well its not getting marvel scale. Need boots on that Frosmoth, nope it has flame orb now. Along with it three slot in total stamina + fluffy+ marvel scale just to what, have a chance at beating the opponent. I argue in this situation even with marvel scale I believe the opponent still has the matchup on you.

3. Persian is better than Bewear.
Persian has access to knock off which is useful in all matchups. Persian is also dark which makes it better against prankster stall. Along with the ability to uturn or parting shot to avoid getting trapped by infestation on stall builds. Overall a solid pick on a stall team.
Looking at Bewear’s sets the only thing notable about it is stats which are a bit beefier.

I was playing on an alt in low ladder which was filled with ho and 90% of my games have came down to a speed tie between two dragapults that both have quick feet. This is not skilled nor fun to have majority of my games ruined by a coin flip. The ho is way out of hand especially with stall being at this state we need some sort of change before this meta goes from fun to brainless.
Also if that wasn’t clear enough, definitely do not ban regenerator.
Edit: trapping moves are not reliable to counter stall because most good stall players have uturn or rapid spin or any ghost type, but this does not mean it should be banned because trapping doesn’t completely counter stall, brainless ho does.

 

[Clefable]

I wanted to share a cool core that works well in the current meta. I made this core after playing a bunch of games with various stall teams and running into a neat HO strategy that I didn't have an answer for:

Taunt Setup Sweepers

Bewear @ Lum Berry
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Taunt

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Taunt

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Spirit Break

So off the bat, Flash Fire + Fluffy is a well known combo that eliminates the downside of Fluffy. The key to breaking stall is that Prankster Taunt allows Chandelure and Bewear to boost through Prankster Haze and Toxic users. Screens is a natural archetype for boosting sweepers and Grimm is a good setter. I've had great results versus stall using this team and the HO matchup is decent too.

 

[TexanSansei]

It’s certainly possible to break through—I managed it with Taunt plus a trapping move, which is apparently an instalose judging from the reaction.

Pigeons uses a very similar set which I have seen and used. Mew can be killed easily with earthquake and knock off. Also if the team doesn't set up hazards you can just ifini-switch to save PP. I don't really think it's that big of a problem and if you really hate berry teams then just use unnerve.
Me not knowing pigeons would stall me.

 

[Lewi11]

Pigeons uses a very similar set which I have seen and used. Mew can be killed easily with earthquake and knock off. Also if the team doesn't set up hazards you can just ifini-switch to save PP. I don't really think it's that big of a problem and if you really hate berry teams then just use unnerve.
Me not knowing pigeons would stall me.

It's a valid gameplay I get it and it's obviously successful, but someone please tell me how this is a fun and balanced way to battle?

How can it not be broken if the only way to (maybe) beat it is critical hits, taunt or Haze. But there's ways around all of those counters very easily (Sniper/SuperLuck/Oblivious), but Crits won't matter unless they're constant and unless you're running a Critical Hit based team, then you MIGHT break through it.

In addition, this specific team wasn't too bad stall-wise, but combine it with RainStall, Oblivious, Fluffy or Pressure or something equally stally, it just becomes ridiculous.

I know I seem against stall, I'm really not. I love it and use it frequently. But because of this, I can see that it's still OP atm. Not certain why but the Leppa Berry should be looked at imo.

I look at HO (which I do find more entertaining) and the battles seem fairly even most of the time. Depends what set I bring.
However as soon as I bring a full stall team, I basically don't lose (and to me it's no fun), so back to HO (or a mix of HO and Stall) I go.

By 'Full Stall Team' I mean like the team I posted before, here it is again just for reference:
Eldegoss @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Rapid Spin
- Aromatherapy

Mudsdale @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Press
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Body Press
- Protect

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Feather Dance

Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Drain Punch
- Pain Split
- Taunt

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split

Imagine if I put that Mew onto a team like this? Madness!

I'm still unsure as to what will make stall less potent, but the Leppa Berry or Pressure (like I said before) should be looked at imo.

This is just my opinion, but if you have an argument supporting this kind of stall and think that it is balanced, please tell me! I would love to know your views too! Or easy ways to defeat it?

:)

 

[alephgalactus]

How can it not be broken if the only way to (maybe) beat it is critical hits, taunt or Haze. But there's ways around all of those counters very easily (Sniper/SuperLuck/Oblivious), but Crits won't matter unless they're constant and unless you're running a Critical Hit based team, then you MIGHT break through it.

Crits don’t work against Pigeons’ team because of Type: Null’s Battle Armor, and Taunt doesn’t work if it’s one of the teams with Aroma Veil Aromatisse (Pigeons has made several variations of the team). That said, there are other ways to beat that Mew. Unnerve completely invalidates it, since opponents can never use Berries if you have it. If the team hasn’t set up hazards, you can just switch forever and make it a contest of “who gets bored/has to leave first”. Physical non-contact moves do regular damage to that team, so really strong hits could make it difficult for Mew to set up. Long Reach makes every move non-contact and completely invalidates Fluffy; Darkest Lariat is super-effective against Mew, ignores stat boosts and is available on relevant Pokémon like Grimmsnarl and Bewear. Bulk Up Darkest Lariat Grimmsnarl beats Mew on every iteration of that team (especially combined with Long Reach or Protective Pads), while granting the rest of your team Prankster and leaving room in its moveset for screens. As a matter of fact, that Grimmsnarl set tears through a lot of stall teams, though Prankster Haze is still an issue.

 

[DarkBladeSceptile]

Crits don’t work against Pigeons’ team because of Type: Null’s Battle Armor, and Taunt doesn’t work if it’s one of the teams with Aroma Veil Aromatisse (Pigeons has made several variations of the team). That said, there are other ways to beat that Mew. Unnerve completely invalidates it, since opponents can never use Berries if you have it. If the team hasn’t set up hazards, you can just switch forever and make it a contest of “who gets bored/has to leave first”. Physical non-contact moves do regular damage to that team, so really strong hits could make it difficult for Mew to set up. Long Reach makes every move non-contact and completely invalidates Fluffy; Darkest Lariat is super-effective against Mew, ignores stat boosts and is available on relevant Pokémon like Grimmsnarl and Bewear. Bulk Up Darkest Lariat Grimmsnarl beats Mew on every iteration of that team (especially combined with Long Reach or Protective Pads), while granting the rest of your team Prankster and leaving room in its moveset for screens. As a matter of fact, that Grimmsnarl set tears through a lot of stall teams—Prankster Haze isn’t an issue because Grimmsnarl is Dark-type.

All good points (though unnerve actually being used in this meta with harvest gone would be interesting sight to see).

I just wanted to add that prankster haze can still work on Grimmsnarl despite it being a dark type, thankfully. It is a move that targets all pokemon. Same is true for queenly majesty. Otherwise Hydreigon would have been an even bigger issue before contrary ban, if you were using Prankster haze Toxapex to manage (which I was).

 

[Oublié]

All good points (though unnerve actually being used in this meta with harvest gone would be interesting sight to see).

I just wanted to add that prankster haze can still work on Grimmsnarl despite it being a dark type, thankfully. It is a move that targets all pokemon. Same is true for queenly majesty. Otherwise Hydreigon would have been an even bigger issue before contrary ban, if you were using Prankster haze Toxapex to manage (which I was).

In theory, priority Haze can't be blocked by dark types, queenly majesty or psychic terrain, but for some mysterious reason, priority haze does get blocked in these instances in Shared Power since yesterday, which I suppose is a bug. It seems to hurt stall teams quite a bit from what I've seen, as their most reliable way to stop opponents from setting up is gone for now.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1097153874

For proof, look at turn 24 of the match above, which ended just a minute ago.

 

[Oublié]

Interestingly enough, it seems that prankster Haze is blocked by Queenly majesty but not by dark types, while prankster Roar is blocked by dark types but not by Queenly majesty...

 

[Hematite]

Interestingly enough, it seems that prankster Haze is blocked by Queenly majesty but not by dark types, while prankster Roar is blocked by dark types but not by Queenly majesty...

Prankster Roar being blocked by Dark-types but not Queenly Majesty actually sounds correct, I think. The priority is being increased by Prankster, which is what gives Dark-types immunity; the immunity there is an effect of Prankster, not an effect of priority. On the other hand, the priority is still negative, which is what stops Queenly Majesty from attempting to block the move. If I understand the two effects correctly, that's exactly how I would expect them to interact.

 

[Lewi11]

Crits don’t work against Pigeons’ team because of Type: Null’s Battle Armor, and Taunt doesn’t work if it’s one of the teams with Aroma Veil Aromatisse (Pigeons has made several variations of the team). That said, there are other ways to beat that Mew. Unnerve completely invalidates it, since opponents can never use Berries if you have it. If the team hasn’t set up hazards, you can just switch forever and make it a contest of “who gets bored/has to leave first”. Physical non-contact moves do regular damage to that team, so really strong hits could make it difficult for Mew to set up. Long Reach makes every move non-contact and completely invalidates Fluffy; Darkest Lariat is super-effective against Mew, ignores stat boosts and is available on relevant Pokémon like Grimmsnarl and Bewear. Bulk Up Darkest Lariat Grimmsnarl beats Mew on every iteration of that team (especially combined with Long Reach or Protective Pads), while granting the rest of your team Prankster and leaving room in its moveset for screens. As a matter of fact, that Grimmsnarl set tears through a lot of stall teams, though Prankster Haze is still an issue.

I was looking for Battle Armor in the team, but completely forgot that Type: Null gets it! fml
You make some good points though, thanks!

The problems I have though are:

Unnerve isn't a great ability and to sacrifice a slot on a team only to counter one specific stall mon seems ridiculous to me.

Long Reach is good, but is solely allowed on one mon, Decidueye, which lets be honest is a meh kind of mon competitively, especially in a meta like this.

Moves like Darkest Lariat and Sacred Sword are a good shout tbh, I may utilise that! (some great mons learn them, but it's a shame there aren't more that can).

I need to play a few more matches first now to see if stall is as potent as I thought it was and then I'll review it again, see if the meta has become more playable for me.

:)

 

[TexanSansei]

I was looking for Battle Armor in the team, but completely forgot that Type: Null gets it! fml
You make some good points though, thanks!

The problems I have though are:

Unnerve isn't a great ability and to sacrifice a slot on a team only to counter one specific stall mon seems ridiculous to me.

Long Reach is good, but is solely allowed on one mon, Decidueye, which lets be honest is a meh kind of mon competitively, especially in a meta like this.

Moves like Darkest Lariat and Sacred Sword are a good shout tbh, I may utilise that! (some great mons learn them, but it's a shame there aren't more that can).

I need to play a few more matches first now to see if stall is as potent as I thought it was and then I'll review it again, see if the meta has become more playable for me.

:)

Just use earthquake or literally any dark type move. Mew is at its weakest right when it switches in, so that's your chance to make it count. After using pigeons team, I could say it's balanced. Anything with darkest lariat kills it pretty fast. Although after two cosmic powers if the opponent doesn't have darkest lariat then you instantly win. Not much more than that.