Metagame Shared Power

[Darth]

This meta really has become unfun ever since the fur coat ban.
no matter what archetype you run, the odds of getting run over by some moronic physspam team that puts 0 effort into beating you is too damn high. It's very discouraging to play, and really contributes nothing to do the meta positively.

The opposing Terrakion used Stone Edge!
(Shiinotic lost 100% of its health!)

Things like this exemplify why. Mons like terrakion have no business just casually OHKO'ing max def mons with an unboosted STAB move or doing 50% to max def weezing. It's beyond stupid that there is 0 counterplay to this for defensive teams. Not to mention you basically are forced to run volt absorb and/or water absorb because the fossil dinos are still legal for whatever reason.
When the meta was receiving daily bans I refrained from complaining too much to give the meta time to settle, but this really is just part of the "y'know... I dont actually want to play." group.

 

[alephgalactus]

This meta really has become unfun ever since the fur coat ban.
no matter what archetype you run, the odds of getting run over by some moronic physspam team that puts 0 effort into beating you is too damn high. It's very discouraging to play, and really contributes nothing to do the meta positively.

The opposing Terrakion used Stone Edge!
(Shiinotic lost 100% of its health!)

Things like this exemplify why. Mons like terrakion have no business just casually OHKO'ing max def mons with an unboosted STAB move or doing 50% to max def weezing. It's beyond stupid that there is 0 counterplay to this for defensive teams. Not to mention you basically are forced to run volt absorb and/or water absorb because the fossil dinos are still legal for whatever reason.
When the meta was receiving daily bans I refrained from complaining too much to give the meta time to settle, but this really is just part of the "y'know... I dont actually want to play." group.

One thing I’ve noticed about this meta is that special attackers are all but nonexistent. It’s pretty much entirely oriented around the physical side. Also, why are you using Pokémon like Shiinotic and Weezing? There are better users of Levitate and Rain Dish. If you’re running a rain team, I think the best Levitate option would be Rotom-Wash.

 

[The Immortal]

The metagame has been given enough time to develop after the previous bans. I have been contemplating what action to take and came to the decision to ban Guts and Flare Boost. The metagame is predominantly some form of Quick Feet offense vs Quick Feet offense, currently. The issue isn't Quick Feet, however. Assuming Quick Feet was banned, the metagame would still be centralized around Guts, except now the fastest mons will be on every team (your Dragapults, Zeraoras, etc...). Removing Guts, and the Special equivalent Flare Boost, solves both the issue of overpowered Flame Orb spam teams, and Quick Feet speed boosting.

 

[Darth]

One thing I’ve noticed about this meta is that special attackers are all but nonexistent. It’s pretty much entirely oriented around the physical side. Also, why are you using Pokémon like Shiinotic and Weezing? There are better users of Levitate and Rain Dish. If you’re running a rain team, I think the best Levitate option would be Rotom-Wash.

Shiinotic is there because it has strength sap and spore, both very viable moves. Weezing-Galar gets haze.
I was going to comment on how misty terrain stops guts/flare boost on its own but I guess that was invalidated by TI's post just now (which did not include a fur coat unban so :shrug:)

Weezing Galar also has some of the best physical bulk around currently, which is all you can use now that physdef is nearly impossible to have.

 

[Negative Charge]

Guts ban is gigantic (flare boost was less of a thing but yeah), thank you The Immortal. It had gotten to the point that Misty Terrain became super viable not to shield your guys from status but to prevent your opponent from activating their orbs. Its departure will shake up the meta quite dramatically, literally 90% of teams I face are just orb spam.

 

[Darth]

Guts ban is gigantic (flare boost was less of a thing but yeah), thank you The Immortal. It had gotten to the point that Misty Terrain became super viable not to shield your guys from status but to prevent your opponent from activating their orbs. Its departure will shake up the meta quite dramatically, literally 90% of teams I face are just orb spam.

that's the thing though. Misty surge was a viable counter. So was knock off w/ sparkling aria, trick lum berry on rotom heat, etc.
I'm glad it's gone dont get me wrong but the fact guts was worse than hustle apparently is a bit odd.

 

[Cuddly]

I have been away for some time for school, and wow did this meta change a lot.

But anyways, I was wonder what is the best Meltan set you can use?
It’s extremely weak on its own, but passing Magnet Pull onto teammates can be extremely powerful.
Ideally, the team composition would be Meltan, a or 2 Pokemon that can deal with every Steel type, and then 3-4 powerhouses who beat everything besides Steel types.
It would be interesting to make that team, but first I have to make a Meltan set that does something other than die.
Suggestions?

 

[MegaFanOfShedinja]

that's the thing though. Misty surge was a viable counter. So was knock off w/ sparkling aria, trick lum berry on rotom heat, etc.
I'm glad it's gone dont get me wrong but the fact guts was worse than hustle apparently is a bit odd.

I suppose the difference is that Hustle forces you to run No Guard to be functional (since nobody uses Compound Eyes because only 3 mons have that and they are fragile bugs), and that ability has its certain disadvantage because it causes Toxic never misses against you, and you can't use moves like Shadow Force because your opponent can damange you during your immunity turn.

Gusts doesn't require that, and can be stacked with other things like Flare Boost, Quick Feet or Marvel Scale, while it gives to you a technical immunity to status.

Now we can counter physical attackers just with Scald.

 

[Cuddly]

I suppose the difference is that Hustle forces you to run No Guard to be functional (since nobody uses Compound Eyes because only 3 mons have that and they are fragile bugs), and that ability has its certain disadvantage because it causes Toxic never misses against you, and you can't use moves like Shadow Force because your opponent can damange you during your immunity.

Gusts doesn't require that, and can be stacked with other things like Flare Boost and Quick Feet, while it gives to you a technical immunity to status.

Now we can counter physical attackers just with scald.

I would also like to add that Guts is essentially an upgraded Life Orb. You can choose any move, take less damage each turn, the effect is permanent (unless your opponent has Psycho Shift or Purify), and it stacks with Quick Feet.

 

[Darth]

I suppose the difference is that Hustle forces you to run No Guard to be functional (since nobody uses Compound Eyes because only 3 mons have that and they are fragile bugs), and that ability has its certain disadvantage because it causes Toxic never misses against you, and you can't use moves like Shadow Force because your opponent can damange you during your immunity turn.

Gusts doesn't require that, and can be stacked with other things like Flare Boost, Quick Feet or Marvel Scale, while it gives to you a technical immunity to status.

Now we can counter physical attackers just with Scald.

Guts also costs you your item and runs a higher risk of you never getting the bonus from it (misty terrain, knock on the switch, trick lum, sparkling aria)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I have been away for some time for school, and wow did this meta change a lot.

But anyways, I was wonder what is the best Meltan set you can use?
It’s extremely weak on its own, but passing Magnet Pull onto teammates can be extremely powerful.
Ideally, the team composition would be Meltan, a or 2 Pokemon that can deal with every Steel type, and then 3-4 powerhouses who beat everything besides Steel types.
It would be interesting to make that team, but first I have to make a Meltan set that does something other than die.
Suggestions?

The only set I've ever heard considered for Meltan in any context was a PP stalling set that used Acid Armor and Rest (basically just shitty Gothitelle). This thing has so few moves that there aren't many other options. Thunder Wave is nice as always, though maybe not on a PP stall set. I guess Tail Whip can soften up walls? You could also maybe give it Steel Beam so that it has an even easier time dying, and can work as a suicide lead instead of being total setup bait at the start of the match.

 

[brownboss]

The metagame has been given enough time to develop after the previous bans. I have been contemplating what action to take and came to the decision to ban Guts and Flare Boost. The metagame is predominantly some form of Quick Feet offense vs Quick Feet offense, currently. The issue isn't Quick Feet, however. Assuming Quick Feet was banned, the metagame would still be centralized around Guts, except now the fastest mons will be on every team (your Dragapults, Zeraoras, etc...). Removing Guts, and the Special equivalent Flare Boost, solves both the issue of overpowered Flame Orb spam teams, and Quick Feet speed boosting.

This is a gross miscarriage of a ban when now there are basically no counters to defense. Now there is almost no way to counter Ice Scales + Stamina/Fluffy. If the issue was the speed boost, then it would have been better to ban Guts/Flare Boost+Quick Feet.

This meta is now just defense

 

[Young Killer]

The Immortal Your criteria are really awful, you ban guts/flare boost because is "tOo CeNtRaLiZiNg" when Stamina and Fluffy/Ice Scales is around of the corner turn the battles in annoying snowballs, EVERYONE notes that you're a stall fan but come on please be less evident. This meta lost the little fun that still remained.

RIP for this boring meta now.

 

[Darth]

The Immortal Your criteria are really awful, you ban guts/flare boost because is "tOo CeNtRaLiZiNg" when Stamina and Fluffy/Ice Scales is around of the corner turn the battles in annoying snowballs, EVERYONE notes that you're a stall fan but come on please be less evident. This meta lost the little fun that still remained.

RIP for this boring meta now.

This is a gross miscarriage of a ban when now there are basically no counters to defense. Now there is almost no way to counter Ice Scales + Stamina/Fluffy. If the issue was the speed boost, then it would have been better to ban Guts/Flare Boost+Quick Feet.

This meta is now just defense

I will apologize in advance for the tone I will be taking. I could pretend I tried to be super friendly but ...

Your lack of skill in the meta does not give you a free ticket to bash on this ban. If you think there is no way to counter defense right now, in this meta, then you are seriously looking at a different one than I am where offense will catch the win 99% of the time against the lackluster power defense can bring at the moment.

- Fluffy: LONG. REACH. MFG. PROTECTIVE PADS. It's not that HARD.
- Stamina: Irrelevant cause you get OHKO'd anyways or knocked so low that +1 won't matter lul
- Ice scales: yeah idk I find flare boost ban a little bit too much too maybe. I dont think special teams warranted being banned in general seeing as they were a bit underwhelming, but they still thrive in punk rock settings which is where they were the best anyways, so I don't think this was touched too much.

If The Immortal is a stall fan then I want a refund on the Fur Coat ban, worst stall fan ever imo.

 

[Young Killer]

I will apologize in advance for the tone I will be taking. I could pretend I tried to be super friendly but ...

Your lack of skill in the meta does not give you a free ticket to bash on this ban. If you think there is no way to counter defense right now, in this meta, then you are seriously looking at a different one than I am where offense will catch the win 99% of the time against the lackluster power defense can bring at the moment.

- Fluffy: LONG. REACH. MFG. PROTECTIVE PADS. It's not that HARD.
- Stamina: Irrelevant cause you get OHKO'd anyways or knocked so low that +1 won't matter lul
- Ice scales: yeah idk I find flare boost ban a little bit too much too maybe. I dont think special teams warranted being banned in general seeing as they were a bit underwhelming, but they still thrive in punk rock settings which is where they were the best anyways, so I don't think this was touched too much.

If The Immortal is a stall fan then I want a refund on the Fur Coat ban, worst stall fan ever imo.

Lack of Skill ? You really don't know about me to said that kind of trash...

"Friendly" HAHAHAHAHAHA

Run a stall team off course if a lack of skills you just need push buttons without thinking...

Sure you can 1kh0 to a Mudsdale with a non efective move too easy. Sure you can stop a prankster recovery team pretty easy.

Oh Pooooorly stall is too weak.

 

[soral_a_raison]

Protective pads suggestion, wow nice

I think you were the guy who ran a team full of rocky helmet + iron barbs, so I get it, for you it was the worst item to face, but anyone who put protective pads on one pokemon (in a HO of course), will find that it's not enough, and will greatly hinder him against 99% of the other teams

Even in balanced hackmon there is only one rare case of using protective pads if i recall

Young Killer is right, all these bans are pro stall since the beginning, and I think banning fur coat was not a good idea but already said it

 

[Cuddly]

You know, if people are having trouble with Stamina on Defensive teams, why not run things that ignore stat boosts?
Yeah, Unaware is banned, but Storm Throw, Frost Breath, and other moves/abilities exist.

Honestly the biggest problem with the meta is that not enough people are theorycrafting, and just going with what they know.

 

[Clefable]

Wanted to share my two cents on the meta:

1. Dragapult is really really good. I explained why in my last post but basically with its speed tier and Queenly Majesty, it has little to fear from

90% of the meta and can freely fire off Dragon Darts. I built a team around LO Dragapult and I was amazed how easy it was to position myself for a winning endgame versus so much of the tier. LO + Hustle + Sheer Force boosts Steel Wing to the point of OHKOing all but the bulkiest fairies in the tier and Fire Blast takes care of Steels.​

For those interested, my LO Dragapult team is here. Delibird + Golurk is a cool hazard setting core; I think it's important on HO to have your suicide leads have useful offensive abilities to snag kills in the first few turns, so I like Delibird better than other Hustle users I've seen. Triple Trick helps a little with the stall matchup but is mostly gimmicky. Stamina stall in particular is a problem for this team. Which brings me to item 2:​

2. Stall is also really good right now. I think much of the attention has been on Fluffy Scales, Regen, and Stamina, but I think not enough attention is

being given to Dusclops, which I consider one of the strongest anti-offense mons in the tier. Prankster Haze is a full stop to all boosting abilities, and Pressure allows Dusclops to outlast many would-be breakers.​

Here's a replay where two dedicated stallbreakers barely manage to eke out a win versus Dusclops: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1100502056 In this replay, Dusclops is able to eat a +2 Darkest Lariat from Adamant Pangoro and regenerate enough health back to take on Chandelure. Even though the Chandelure has Prankster Taunt to beat out Prankster Haze, Dusclops is still able to whittle down its PP thanks to Regen + Ice Scales and runs it out of Shadow Ball PP. Although this battle didn't go the way of the stall user, if the Dusclops had been a Protect variant, I think the outcome would have been different.​

I think the stall archetype has too many tools at its disposal. Between all the viable variants of stall -- Fluffy Scales, Stamina, Rain Skin, Hail Body, Pressure, Regen, and hybrids -- there is no reliable answer to all of them, and to me that's a problem. If the goal is to nerf stall enough to make it manageable, examining one of Regen/Pressure/Stamina/Icy Scales would be a place to start. I would prefer killing Regen since I'm not a fan of stall v stall being endless.​

Edit: An entertaining replay showcasing both playstyles I touched on in this post with a photo finish: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1100758471

 

[Darth]

Protective pads suggestion, wow nice

I think you were the guy who ran a team full of rocky helmet + iron barbs, so I get it, for you it was the worst item to face, but anyone who put protective pads on one pokemon (in a HO of course), will find that it's not enough, and will greatly hinder him against 99% of the other teams

Even in balanced hackmon there is only one rare case of using protective pads if i recall

Young Killer is right, all these bans are pro stall since the beginning, and I think banning fur coat was not a good idea but already said it

I am not. The team was nice though, I liked seeing it on the ladder.
It is a mandatory item or a mandatory ability to break through Fluffy. If you're not using it and you cry about Fluffy, that's on you, that's all there's to it.

Lack of Skill ? You really don't know about me to said that kind of trash...

"Friendly" HAHAHAHAHAHA

Run a stall team off course if a lack of skills you just need push buttons without thinking...

Sure you can 1kh0 to a Mudsdale with a non efective move too easy. Sure you can stop a prankster recovery team pretty easy.

Oh Pooooorly stall is too weak.

I could add snarky comments but you're kind of just proving it on your own.

 

[MegaFanOfShedinja]

Ok guys, I need your help with this.

You see, my play style is Stats Boosting, is just how I love to play, I love getting +6 on everything and then killing them all with Power Trip, or tricking my opponent into letting me get +3 Sword Dance up or Shell Smash and stuff.

However, all my teams are always faced with a great enemy, which I have not found a single viable and functional way to beat, fucking Haze.

And not, Queenly Majesty isn't a viable solution, because not all Haze teams runs Prankster, Duscplos and even Dusknoir are excellent Haze users without Prankster involved, also, if your opponent is smart enough, and he realizes that you have Tsareena on your team, he can just not activate Prankster in his team, a situation I've seen.

However, long ago occurred to me, the ultimate strategy against Haze, a masterpiece of technology and human mentalpower (?), buuut, that strategy I couldn't make it work in any damn way, bacause none of the available pokemons to do that could do a lot about it.

Well, what is this supreme meme anti-Haze strategy that 'doesn't work'? BEHOLD:

Hide

So the problem is the following; How the fuck can you sweep a entire team on this meta, or at least remove the Hazer, with only two moves, with any of these pokemons ???

The first thing I tried was Dragon Dance Milotic with Iron Head / Waterfall ++ Serene Grace, and the plan was to outspeed everyone and flinch to dead, the problem? That didn't do a shit against Mareanie when I tested it, then I thought of the following, Xatu with ImprisonHaze + Silver Wind + Stored Power ++ Serene Grace (?), the problem besides luck? there isn't Silver Wind in SS : /

The last idea that occurred to me was Decidueye with ImprisonHaze + Nasty Plot + Giga Drain, but funny enouch when I tested that in a team I couldn't find a single Haze team to face against to see how it would works, and Decidueye ended up not contributing anything to the rest of my team, lol.

Anyway, tell me, does anyone have a good idea of what to do with this strategy? it is possible to make a Stats Boosting team that takes advantage of this strategy, in some way ??? This needs some 1000 IQ Team Building/Theorycrafting, if it can be more than a bad meme.

 

[TexanSansei]

Wanted to share my two cents on the meta:

1. Dragapult is really really good. I explained why in my last post but basically with its speed tier and Queenly Majesty, it has little to fear from

90% of the meta and can freely fire off Dragon Darts. I built a team around LO Dragapult and I was amazed how easy it was to position myself for a winning endgame versus so much of the tier. LO + Hustle + Sheer Force boosts Steel Wing to the point of OHKOing all but the bulkiest fairies in the tier and Fire Blast takes care of Steels.​

For those interested, my LO Dragapult team is here. Delibird + Golurk is a cool hazard setting core; I think it's important on HO to have your suicide leads have useful offensive abilities to snag kills in the first few turns, so I like Delibird better than other Hustle users I've seen. Triple Trick helps a little with the stall matchup but is mostly gimmicky. Stamina stall in particular is a problem for this team. Which brings me to item 2:​

2. Stall is also really good right now. I think much of the attention has been on Fluffy Scales, Regen, and Stamina, but I think not enough attention is

being given to Dusclops, which I consider one of the strongest anti-offense mons in the tier. Prankster Haze is a full stop to all boosting abilities, and Pressure allows Dusclops to outlast many would-be breakers.​

Here's a replay where two dedicated stallbreakers barely manage to eke out a win versus Dusclops: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8sharedpower-1100502056 In this replay, Dusclops is able to eat a +2 Darkest Lariat from Adamant Pangoro and regenerate enough health back to take on Chandelure. Even though the Chandelure has Prankster Taunt to beat out Prankster Haze, Dusclops is still able to whittle down its PP thanks to Regen + Ice Scales and runs it out of Shadow Ball PP. Although this battle didn't go the way of the stall user, if the Dusclops had been a Protect variant, I think the outcome would have been different.​

I think the stall archetype has too many tools at its disposal. Between all the viable variants of stall -- Fluffy Scales, Stamina, Rain Skin, Hail Body, Pressure, Regen, and hybrids -- there is no reliable answer to all of them, and to me that's a problem. If the goal is to nerf stall enough to make it manageable, examining one of Regen/Pressure/Stamina/Icy Scales would be a place to start. I would prefer killing Regen since I'm not a fan of stall v stall being endless.​

Just wanted to say thx. After playing with this team I am once again rising on the ladder. This team beats stall with the trick and beats all other HO. Great job on making this team!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Ok guys, I need your help with this.

You see, my play style is Stats Boosting, is just how I love to play, I love getting +6 on everything and then killing them all with Power Trip, or tricking my opponent into letting me get +3 Sword Dance up or Shell Smash and stuff.

However, all my teams are always faced with a great enemy, which I have not found a single viable and functional way to beat, fucking Haze.

And not, Queenly Majesty isn't a viable solution, because not all Haze teams runs Prankster, Duscplos and even Dusknoir are excellent Haze users without Prankster involved, also, if your opponent is smart enough, and he realizes that you have Tsareena on your team, he can just not activate Prankster in his team, a situation I've seen.

However, long ago occurred to me, the ultimate strategy against Haze, a masterpiece of technology and human mentalpower (?), buuut, that strategy I couldn't make it work in any damn way, bacause none of the available pokemons to do that could do a lot about it.

Well, what is this supreme meme anti-Haze strategy that 'doesn't work'? BEHOLD:

Hide

View attachment 238937

So the problem is the following; How the fuck can you sweep a entire team on this meta, or at least remove the Hazer, with only two moves, with any of these pokemons ???

The first thing I tried was Dragon Dance Milotic with Iron Head / Waterfall ++ Serene Grace, and the plan was to outspeed everyone and flinch to dead, the problem? That didn't do a shit against Mareanie when I tested it, then I thought of the following, Xatu with ImprisonHaze + Silver Wind + Stored Power ++ Serene Grace (?), the problem besides luck? there isn't Silver Wind in SS : /

The last idea that occurred to me was Decidueye with ImprisonHaze + Nasty Plot + Giga Drain, but funny enouch when I tested that in a team I couldn't find a single Haze team to face against to see how it would works, and Decidueye ended up not contributing anything to the rest of my team, lol.

Anyway, tell me, does anyone have a good idea of what to do with this strategy? it is possible to make a Stats Boosting team that takes advantage of this strategy, in some way ??? This needs some 1000 IQ Team Building/Theorycrafting, if it can be more than a bad meme.

SD Leaf Blade Decidueye might be more useful. Not only is it stronger, but it makes use of Long Reach to invalidate Fluffy.

 

[Ztest]

I will apologize in advance for the tone I will be taking. I could pretend I tried to be super friendly but ...

Your lack of skill in the meta does not give you a free ticket to bash on this ban. If you think there is no way to counter defense right now, in this meta, then you are seriously looking at a different one than I am where offense will catch the win 99% of the time against the lackluster power defense can bring at the moment.

- Fluffy: LONG. REACH. MFG. PROTECTIVE PADS. It's not that HARD.
- Stamina: Irrelevant cause you get OHKO'd anyways or knocked so low that +1 won't matter lul
- Ice scales: yeah idk I find flare boost ban a little bit too much too maybe. I dont think special teams warranted being banned in general seeing as they were a bit underwhelming, but they still thrive in punk rock settings which is where they were the best anyways, so I don't think this was touched too much.

If The Immortal is a stall fan then I want a refund on the Fur Coat ban, worst stall fan ever imo.

I'm gonna agree with this and say that if you're losing to stall still you're probably not very good. Trashing on TI when guts+flare lost to stall in the first place shows that some of you don't have nearly enough games played. If anything, guts ban just opens up more HO, since you're not getting outsped and ran through by dragapult pressing one move. There's so many good abilities/items that simply invalidate stall, but I won't take the time to reiterate them all since they already have been. Most notable are sand force, skill link, and super luck; if you play them well you can get past pretty much all stall archetypes. I used to have 100% win rate with stall and now it's down to around 70%, with every game having a nice 50/50. You are banning pretty much all the right things and I am having fun playing this meta again, keep up the good work The Immortal

 

[Darth]

My suggestion remains to simply ban Fluffy, unban fur coat, and complex ban fur coat + ice scales OR unban FC and just complex ban f+fc, f+is, and is+fc. All three.

Reasoning in depth:

- Fluffy simply does not offer enough to keep stall viable. EQ and Stone edge ignore it, as do some other moves, and long reach/PPads ignore it entirely. A stall team cannot thrive when those factors are live.

- Fur coat + Ice scales is what's broken; Fur coat or scales on its own isn't and never was. This is evident by Ice scales on its own being totally fine.

- unbanning fur coat prevents further phys abil bans, because really I don't like seeing more and more bans still. The banlist we have now is nearing balance, we should be calling for minimal bans going forward except for really important things.

- If necessary, Regenerator is a bigger issue than Fur coat. I say this as the biggest Regenerator lover out there, it's my SSB mon, it's my signature, Tangela is my sweetheart, but realistically it's the bigger issue of defenses + regen. IF anything (I dont think it should be either, but w/e) regenerator deserves the ban more than FC does

- FC actually aids offense too in the sense it lets you bulk through dragapult the broken mess.

 

[The Immortal]

Of the defensive abilities, I think Stamina should go. Yes there are ways to invalidate it, such as Haze. There are also moves like Darkest Lariat and Sacred Sword, but they are weakened by Fluffy and easily Pressure stalled. You can also run Long Reach or Protective Pads to deal with Fluffy, but that adds to my point. Stall doesn’t need Stamina to function effectively. However, offense needs really specific tools to beat Stamina teams.

I’d like to hear from the playerbase on this.