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World Cup of 1v1 IV - Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The Official Glyx
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Want to take this moment to thank AmirAlexander for whipping out amazing artwork every other 1v1 tour, severely underrated goat
F in chat for 2v2
Haha, no.
It's tradition for previous-gen to have more than one slot and this makes sense as a decent amount of the playerbase is still more attached to SM than to SS. You really tank the player pool if you tank one SM slot for a third SS when some teams are already struggling to find a third SS. While it does suck that some teams may have to bench players that would've otherwise started but imo it's worth it so we can differentiate from PL and to make teams more competitive. Bo3o5 seems like a really cool slot I'm glad we got it over Bo7.
There's also the fact that there's the Bo3o5 slot, which guarantees a Swsh Set, essentially making 3 swsh slots plus an SM and/or Oras set, this slot is definitely aimed towards more experienced players, which imo gives a chance for newer players to try out swsh.
Newer players should learn Old Gens, they are more fun to play and build.
-The Old Gens management team.
Hi, at first I didn't notice but 2 SM slots is not appropriate if we have to cut down to 2 CG slots for it. The focus for every team tournament (that is not old gen based) should be CG. You're telling me that the teams have to pick FIFTEEN SM teams every week when its not been the gen for a year. Please fix this. Just because people like it more doesn't mean it should get the representation SwSh does.
To formulate a more clear response. I feel like World Cup should be different than PL when it comes to the generations played and the whole procedure (this is why we use pools). This is a step forward to this differentiation we're trying to achieve. We have PL to put the focus on newer/current gen so I think we need a tournament that slowly shifts the focus to older generations. With that being said, I'd love the Bo5o3 slot to be more focused on old gens aka past 3 (SM, ORAS, BW) more but that's just my opinion.
PL was not CG focused it just used the ideal slot formation for the highest quality games while treating the metagames like they should be.
This is coming from a team where it really doesnt matter if there's a second SM or a third SwSh cause you're all still gonna lose to us so I think that it's fairly objective to say that wanting to have more old gen respresentation in a teamtour that's basically about to start is a little sudden and unjustified.
DPP, BW and ORAS get about as much they deserve game wise: even with one slot each, the pools for each are fairly thin anyway. As for SM, it had enough rep when it was CG and as we saw in PL even when 90% of the people playing in team tours now were around in SM there was still some fairly whack slots either way.
Especially now that DLC is coming, encouraging meta development should be the goal not having 2 slots in a meta where the same 20 teams get recycled week in week out.
If we want to have a more old gen focused team tour in the future we should work something out for next year, not improvise so soon before the tour. (because let's face it even the people looking forward to 1v1snake will want to nuke it once it's over)
(also I'm not sure if I should take the SM/ORAS/BW bo3 suggestion seriously because it's honestly a pretry ridiculous idea)
This is coming from a team where it really doesnt matter if there's a second SM or a third SwSh cause you're all still gonna lose to us so I think that it's fairly objective to say that wanting to have more old gen respresentation in a teamtour that's basically about to start is a little sudden and unjustified.
DPP, BW and ORAS get about as much they deserve game wise: even with one slot each, the pools for each are fairly thin anyway. As for SM, it had enough rep when it was CG and as we saw in PL even when 90% of the people playing in team tours now were around in SM there was still some fairly whack slots either way.
Especially now that DLC is coming, encouraging meta development should be the goal not having 2 slots in a meta where the same 20 teams get recycled week in week out.
If we want to have a more old gen focused team tour in the future we should work something out for next year, not improvise so soon before the tour. (because let's face it even the people looking forward to 1v1snake will want to nuke it once it's over)
(also I'm not sure if I should take the SM/ORAS/BW bo3 suggestion seriously because it's honestly a pretry ridiculous idea)
Gonna post here what I said on the 1v1 tournaments channel.
degToday at 9:38 PM
As I explained to Neomon, I think we can create further differentiation between WC and PL, with PL keeping the same slots and giving more focus to current generations but WC can slightly shift the focus to older generations
[9:38 PM]
So BO5O3, if agreed on by the majority of the community can be previous 3 generations
[9:38 PM]
which are for this year, sm oras bw
[9:38 PM]
I think a vote between all players? or maybe only managers
[9:38 PM]
would help and create a non-bias zone
[9:42 PM]
Another option is to sack one SM for a bo5o3 with older generations
[9:42 PM]
and keep 3 SS
As I explained to Neomon, I think we can create further differentiation between WC and PL, with PL keeping the same slots and giving more focus to current generations but WC can slightly shift the focus to older generations
[9:38 PM]
So BO5O3, if agreed on by the majority of the community can be previous 3 generations
[9:38 PM]
which are for this year, sm oras bw
[9:38 PM]
I think a vote between all players? or maybe only managers
[9:38 PM]
would help and create a non-bias zone
[9:42 PM]
Another option is to sack one SM for a bo5o3 with older generations
[9:42 PM]
and keep 3 SS
BoatToday at 9:44 PM
the problem with doing sm oras bw
[9:44 PM]
is that the subset is players who play those exact tiers
[9:44 PM]
is really fucking small
[9:44 PM]
bw is small to begin with
degToday at 9:45 PM
I think that most people that are gonna slot into that spot on each team have the knowledge to go back to BW since most old generation players are slotting in the slot and not new blood
[9:45 PM]
but I could be wrong on that point
DLC is happening a few weeks (month) before the tournament which doesn't even let the SS be developed enough to be seen as competitive
[9:46 PM]
and might just end up being coins tossed
the problem with doing sm oras bw
[9:44 PM]
is that the subset is players who play those exact tiers
[9:44 PM]
is really fucking small
[9:44 PM]
bw is small to begin with
degToday at 9:45 PM
I think that most people that are gonna slot into that spot on each team have the knowledge to go back to BW since most old generation players are slotting in the slot and not new blood
[9:45 PM]
but I could be wrong on that point
DLC is happening a few weeks (month) before the tournament which doesn't even let the SS be developed enough to be seen as competitive
[9:46 PM]
and might just end up being coins tossed
I'd love to see more discussion on the matter.
We should certainly consider this for next wco1v1, cut maybe one ss slot out of pl and add 3 more old gens maybe, 6teams 10 slots 2 for each gen idk im just throwing ideas out there im tired now i wrote 2 short stories about this years format
piper... dc3..
There's valid reason for both 3 ss and 2 sm, imo
On the one hand, more current gen (cg) slots means more development towards the cg metagame (consider the main wc being 8 cg slots), especially with the pending DLC getting ready to change everything.
On the other hand, most people who will be starting this tour like sm over ss.
As far as identity behind each tournament goes;
- I believe PL is the best tour for balance, given the more balanced team creation format, and as such should have the most balanced lineup of formats between each of the main 1v1 metagames.
- Snake Draft is the more experimental tour, which features alternative metas to play besides your average oldgens, while still having somewhat of a balanced team creation format.
- World Cup is the best tour for newer players, given how the team creation format often relies on getting whoever you can, and as such, should probably be the most hospitable team tour environment for new players to get some time in the sun.
When you look at who was involved in this recent PL, relative to who was involved in the last WC, it's clear to see that newer players are more of a driving force in the latter than the former, with even a WC team comprised mostly of newer players making playoffs!
With this in mind, I think it makes sense to cater WC towards the newer players, in the sense that we emphasize the cg more, since that is likely where their starting point for 1v1 as a general community and metagame will be, as opposed to the older gens which aren't easily accessible by means of ladder anymore.
tagging Alakazam and kjdaas for their thoughts (I already know Boat is stalking this thread)
E: oh and I forgot, someone brought this up in the discord: tiebreaks will just have SSBO5 as a default, rather than SSBO7 or the BO3O5, and teams will have the option to pick the BO3O5 if they so desire it.
On the one hand, more current gen (cg) slots means more development towards the cg metagame (consider the main wc being 8 cg slots), especially with the pending DLC getting ready to change everything.
On the other hand, most people who will be starting this tour like sm over ss.
==========================================================================
As far as identity behind each tournament goes;
- I believe PL is the best tour for balance, given the more balanced team creation format, and as such should have the most balanced lineup of formats between each of the main 1v1 metagames.
- Snake Draft is the more experimental tour, which features alternative metas to play besides your average oldgens, while still having somewhat of a balanced team creation format.
- World Cup is the best tour for newer players, given how the team creation format often relies on getting whoever you can, and as such, should probably be the most hospitable team tour environment for new players to get some time in the sun.
==========================================================================
When you look at who was involved in this recent PL, relative to who was involved in the last WC, it's clear to see that newer players are more of a driving force in the latter than the former, with even a WC team comprised mostly of newer players making playoffs!
With this in mind, I think it makes sense to cater WC towards the newer players, in the sense that we emphasize the cg more, since that is likely where their starting point for 1v1 as a general community and metagame will be, as opposed to the older gens which aren't easily accessible by means of ladder anymore.
tagging Alakazam and kjdaas for their thoughts (I already know Boat is stalking this thread)
E: oh and I forgot, someone brought this up in the discord: tiebreaks will just have SSBO5 as a default, rather than SSBO7 or the BO3O5, and teams will have the option to pick the BO3O5 if they so desire it.
Honestly, 2 SS slots in WC is extremely weird to me. With DLC rolling around its the perfect opportunity to develop it and people not liking it doesn't mean it shouldn't be represented because there's clearly people that do. I really do think SM is the most cancerous and unrewarding metagame to build in, but that is inherently the tier's fault and I still find it fun to play. You personally not liking a tier holds no basis on the amount of representation it's supposed to have. Individual teams not having enough player to support a 3rd SS slot is also not a basis for discussion because the presence of a ladder makes it easier to find newer players that are able to play it and makes it way easier for an older player who is accustomed to how a metagame works to learn the tier.
I do agree with the idea of the Bo3o5 slot including SM ORAS and BW, as some sort of "Classic" Bo3 with 1v1's own Classic tiers. Just replace SM with that and have 3 SS
World Cup in general is not a balanced tournament because of the way it's designed and it will never be regardless of how much you try. Trying to select tiers based on how teams would be able to cover them makes no sense, it's up to the managers to find a way to adapt to the slotting. Bo3o5 with SS-ORAS has a just as scarce player pool as Bo3 with SM-BW, imho.
3 SS
1 Bo3o5 Classic (SM ORAS BW)
1 SM
1 ORAS
1 BW
1 DPP
This is my proposal for tiers, it sincerely makes the most sense
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