Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v3 - The Isle of Armor

[Nayrz]

Thread Guidelines

- Discussion should only be focused around SS Ubers and its metagame. No national dex stuff.
- Discussion should only be focused around what is currently (or recently announced will be) available! Theorymon on the upcoming DLC are a no go in here until it arrives.
- Follow the rules, and keep things peaceful.
- Questions go here.
- Other generations discussion goes here.

The Isle of Armor has released and is playable on Pokemon Showdown - minus some movepool oddities and other bugs. Let's cover some ground:

Notable New Pokemon

- Urshifu
- Magearna
- Skarmory
- Volcarona
- Tangrowth
- Chansey / Blissey
- Magnezone
- Alakazam
- Various new Gigantamax formes

The list above isn't exhaustive, the DLC added 100 new Pokemon that may find a place in the metagame and this thread hopes to highlight them.

The Isle of Armor also brought new tutor moves and added new moves to various Pokemon! Check out the distribution here and feel free to highlight their impact to SS Ubers in this thread.

This thread will be the main area to discuss new sets and metagame perspectives for the DLC. As everyone is still picking up on things and bugs are being worked on, be sure to double check the accuracy of anything before you post!

 

[SiTuM]

Urshifu @ Life Orb
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- Dig / Poison Jab / Sucker Punch

Completely broken on webs, it destroys everything if you're not faster and you can't even use Protect to stall dynamax because of Unseen Fist.

Eternatus @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 92 Def / 240 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Recover

Interesting add for Eternatus, Meteor Beam gives it a way of boosting its Special Attack and a good offensive move for Mandibuzz.

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up

I'm pretty sure everyone already knows the tech, but I still wanted to include it. The boost of power from Spectral Thief to Poltergeist is interesting as stealing boosts is clearly not as relevant in SS as it was in USUM, mainly because Arceus isn't here (yet? o_o)

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Psychic / Expanding Force / Psyshock

Also a very dangerous threat on webs, Expanding Force could be fun with the Psychic Terrain that Max Mindstorm gives.

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Psychic

Another stupid mon that abuses Dynamax. Chansey/Blissey and Talonflame are its only checks. Ban Dynamax.

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast / Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Fleur Cannon / Flash Cannon

I doubt an offensive set would work in ubers since it's walled by too many things (Dusk-Mane, Rotom-Heat and also Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Excadrill depending on the set etc) but a defensive set could be cool for Lunala, Kyurem-Black or Eternatus.

 

[Icemaster]

Stall is pretty potent in this meta and with that in mind I have a magearna set which I think is the best one:


Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt/Aura Sphere/Energy Ball
- Draining Kiss/Pain Split

This set very easily snowballs, as calm mind + steelspikes makes you impossibly difficult to break especially with a free turn or two. Flash Cannon is the star of the set as it lets you buff your defense up. Thunderbolt hits Corviknight the hardest while hitting other targets like NDM for ok damage. Aura Sphere can be used instead for Excadrill or Ferrothorn. Energy Ball has a cool dmax effect while allowing you to OHKO quaggy. Draining Kiss (in dynamax) allows you to break through Quagsire and offers healing, but with that you cannot break through Confide Seismic Chans/Bliss. Pain Split lets you beat those on the other hand but yeah you lose to Quag. You can also run Draining Kiss + Flash Cannon + Pain Split to primarily break chansye/quag stall. I think this is a top tier mon. It also checks Dragapult and Kyurem-Black which is just insane.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1134790561-4hv0sgfe3m3n4w78gyajz4790kgtzrhpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1134740655-jl71en177a7h452zargqekxpovk1ml1pw

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic / Leech Seed
- Earthquake

This is a good set which just generally annoys teams very much. Unfortunately Assault Vest SpDef is just way too passive even though it pivots on specs Lunala.

I'll edit in more sets as I play but I definitely really prefer this meta to pre DLC 1, post dyna banlist meta.

 

[theotherguytm]

Just going to dump the brainless Fullpass I built and played today to some success despite being bad feat. Magearna.

BAN ME

It gets what? (Magearna) @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass
I wanted to build with BP Magearna, and this is pretty good. It can restart the chain if something goes wrong with Shift Gear, gather boosts with Calm Mind, sweep with Stored Power and Soul-Heart, or just be a generally tanky mon. It's a great glue mon that can do a lot as the battle goes on and gives a lot of redundancy.
I'm so sorry (Scolipede) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Iron Defense
- Protect
Standard BP lead. Scolipede is way better than Ninjask and Iron Defense is good. Not much more to say.
BAN ME (Espeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Substitute
Standard Espeon. Required on Fullpass. This is the only sweeper with a way to hit Darks, which is deliberate.
What now? (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Stored Power
- Encore
- Calm Mind
Mew stacks types a bit, but I think the unpredictability and redundancy it offers is worth it. You can fit literally anything you want on its set,but I went with Calm Mind Stored Power as a backup sweeper. Encore is a great move here, if you BP Mew into something using a status move, that's free setup. Mew has loads more options like Ammesia, Taunt, every coverage move ever, and so on. You can even use him to fit hazards or hazard removal if you want.
Denied (Mr. Mime) @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
Standard Mr. Mime. Required to have a chance vs Perish Song and Roar. Not that great otherwise tbh, it lacks bulk big style.
Ouch (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Wish
- Taunt
This is the reason I don't have Fairy moves on Magearna and Mew, as Umbreon lets me Improof them to a degree. It is generally a nice defensive option and wishpasser, but that last moveslot is very much up for debate. Doesn't help Umbreon only has Work Up and Curse for setup options, and I could easily see this being switched for something else (my first draft had Dugtrio here to trap and kill annoying things before using Memento to restart the chain).

Baton Pass responsibly, and beware Sash Marshadows. Dynamax can be a pain, but as long as you're faster you can stall it out. If you predict you can even use your own Dynamax (not like this team has any other use for it). Ditto is pretty manageable if you can keep a Sub up. Perish Song and so on are obviously annoying, but this team has a couple of ways to restart the chain if it comes to that.
TL;DR: Please Ban FullPass.

 

[Lost Thoughts]

I didn't see anyone mention it yet but I definitely believe that Klefki will have a niche place again in the Ubers metagame. Hazard stacking with Spikes, spreading status with T-Wave / Toxic, and Dual Screens all with priority plus a great typing is too good not to gloss over. However, it doesn't have Xerneas or Yveltal to setup against, limiting its switch-ins; and it also this generation has to deal with the powerful behemoths Zacian & Eternatus, and also Dynamax (ban this already). Despite this, 1 Layer of Spike or a T-Wave is sometimes all you need to win a match, which is what truly matters.

Hide

Vs Zacian-C
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 252-297 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 218-258 (68.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
Zacian's strongest damaging move against Klefki is Behemoth Blade; Max Defense Klefki is guaranteed to survive a 2HKO otherwise, it will be one-shot by a simple Fire Fang.
~~~
Vs Zacian-C + Screens
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 126-148 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki through Reflect: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
A Defense invested Klefki under Reflect will survive for a 3HKO, enough turns to layer spikes; while a SpDef invested Klefki will survive the two-shot.
~~~
Vs Eternatus
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 239-283 (75.3 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
Only a specially invested Klefki will survive a Modest LO Flamethrower; Defense is OHKO'd.
~~~
Vs Eternatus + Screens
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 120-142 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 169-200 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
SpDef under Light Screen becomes a 3HKO while Defense becomes a 2HKO.
~~~

 

[theotherguytm]

I didn't see anyone mention it yet but I definitely believe that Klefki will have a niche place again in the Ubers metagame. Hazard stacking with Spikes, spreading status with T-Wave / Toxic, and Dual Screens all with priority plus a great typing is too good not to gloss over. However, it doesn't have Xerneas or Yveltal to setup against, limiting its switch-ins; and it also this generation has to deal with the powerful behemoths Zacian & Eternatus, and also Dynamax (ban this already). Despite this, 1 Layer of Spike or a T-Wave is sometimes all you need to win a match, which is what truly matters.

Hide

Vs Zacian-C
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 252-297 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 218-258 (68.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
Zacian's strongest damaging move against Klefki is Behemoth Blade; Max Defense Klefki is guaranteed to survive a 2HKO otherwise, it will be one-shot by a simple Fire Fang.
~~~
Vs Zacian-C + Screens
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 126-148 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki through Reflect: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
A Defense invested Klefki under Reflect will survive for a 3HKO, enough turns to layer spikes; while a SpDef invested Klefki will survive the two-shot.
~~~
Vs Eternatus
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 239-283 (75.3 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
Only a specially invested Klefki will survive a Modest LO Flamethrower; Defense is OHKO'd.
~~~
Vs Eternatus + Screens
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 120-142 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 169-200 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
~~~
SpDef under Light Screen becomes a 3HKO while Defense becomes a 2HKO.
~~~

It's pretty outclassed by Grimmsnarl as a screens setter and paralyser. Grimm also gets Prankster Taunt to shut it down. The only real niche it has is as a Spikes lead, which Mew and Froslass are hard to beat at, since one carries Rocks too, can go boom and is bulky AF, the other can attempt to take opponents with it using Destiny Bond. In short, only if you want the specific combination of Screens+Spikes would you pick Klefki (and even then, you're probably off going double lead).

 

[sudzoof]

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Teleport

This mon is silly.
Completely shuts down any special attacker, sets rocks up, and now can just pivot away to soak up hits and send in a revenge killer.

 

[EG Jhonx~]

Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 208 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Stone Edge
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

I discovered this set when I was building a Trick Room set, main idea was use Choice Band, but being locked in a tier where Corviknight, Skarmory and Necrozma-DM Defensive set are something common, I wanted to lure these while still hitting hard to almost everything, so I came to the idea of bring Special Tyranitar, Dark Pulse 2HKO as well, and Im able to KO Skarmory / Corviknights, this set can dynamax and change weathers as well, Dark Pulse KO Mewtwo sets without being affected from Will o Wisp, same for other stuff that burn Tyranitar, the Atk Spread is to always 2HKO with Earthquake Eternatus, if you dynamax it will be a secure 2HKO, even if the opp recover.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1181532489

Lunala @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Moongeist Beam
- Calm Mind
- Psychic / Moonblast

This Lunala might be common, the standard Lunala uses Teleport and Moonblast instead Calm Mind and Psychic, I opted for Calm Mind instead Teleport because Calm Mind can give you a shot to sweep under Trick Room, the Psychic slot is more team dependant, in my case I struggled a bit with Eternatus so Psychic was fixing that issue, but since Calm Mind is here, Moonblast is good enough and it hits Tyranitar or Mandibuzz hard.

 

[Lost Thoughts]

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Safeguard

Been having a lot of success with Volcarona lately since after a +1 boost & Dynamax it's practically unwallable making it a great sweeper mid to late game. However, every time I've tried to set-up to win the match, healthy Lunala's, Blissey's, or Quagsire's would come in after a sack and try to status via T-Wave or Toxic, ruining the chance to sweep. Out of the majority of the matches I played, I noticed I rarely ever used Bug Buzz, and seeing how OU found Safeguard a viable option to deal with statuses, I figured it'd be a solid option to use. Since running Safeguard, I've been catching multiple players off guard winning some battles, and having seen other players start to run Safeguard themselves. The downside of this set is that Tyranitar now nearly completely walls you, yet it should be worn down over time due to Volc's teammates. Choice Specs Lunala with trick has been a great partner since a majority of its checks also deal with Volcarona and locking them into one move is fantastic.

 

[Tony]

Hey everyone, [Council Member] TonyFlygon checking in..

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that I'm speaking for myself in this post and not necessarily for the other council members. With that out of the way, I wanted to put some of my thoughts on the metagame together after talking about it in the Ubers Discord server yesterday.

For me the main thing now is using these two months we have until the second DLC drops to wrap up loose ends and to get the tier ready for what's coming. To me that boils down to going over Dynamax one more time. Zacian-Crowned is stupid good and perhaps even broken, but it's one of the few title legendaries available right now. I wouldn't want to do anything without seeing Zacian-Crowned among other titans like Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Groudon. The other loose end would be Shadow Tag. Gothitelle is a problem and something I could see myself wanting to address before I'd want to address Zacian-Crowned. Similarly, though, that's something I'd want to look after the whole gang has joined the tier. Dynamax, however, is different for me.

I have a few problems with the current Dynamax system. First and foremost it's a complete mess if you're from the outside looking in. While I have a long, long history with Ubers, this UPL was my first time playing SS Ubers. I really like the tier, don't get me wrong, but I actively avoided it for a while due to the clunky Dynamax policy. It's confusing and impossible to understand at a glance, which makes it extremely unfriendly at an entry level. For example, Kyurem-Black can Dynamax, while way worse Pokemon like Solgaleo and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings can't, only because they started in Ubers while Kyurem-Black lasted in OU for like a week. Not to mention that Kyurem-Black isn't even the sole problematic abuser, as non-Ubers Pokemon like Volcarona, Excadrill, Gyarados and more are incredibly threatening as well.

The problem lies in the mechanic, in my opinion. Dynamax was intended for Pokemon's official 4v4 and 3v3 formats and it simply doesn't suit Smogon's tiers. Even DOU banned Dynamax after giving it a real shot, and that's okay. I feel like Ubers is jumping through too many hoops to protect a mechanic that just isn't meant for 6v6. The Dynamax banlist is already extensive and would probably increase with a handful more if we decide against banning Dynamax overall. Add to that the fact that we're getting Pokemon like Landorus, Landorus-T, Blaziken, Salamence, Kartana, Zygarde, Naganadel, Tornadus-T, Garchomp, the Tapus and more in two months and you're looking at a huge Dynamax banlist if the current system remains in place. A banlist of Pokemon that are all allowed to be used normally, making it all the more confusing and significantly less inviting to try out Ubers for a change.

I joined the council wanting to contribute to making a change. I am and have been a very active and leadership figure of the tournaments community, a community that mostly sees and treats Ubers as outsiders. My main goal is to make as good of an argument as possible for Ubers to be part of the official tournaments circuit again down the line. We shouldn't accept being left out. The Ubers metagames often are some of the best, if not the best, of the generation, and yet the tier isn't being played outside of its own community. It's a massive shame and something we can start changing now. Part of Ubers' charm was always its simplicity. You can use them all, with the (justified) exception of Mega Rayquaza. SS Ubers is the opposite. SS Ubers is complicated and doesn't need Dynamax to be good or diverse at all.

The council is working on more official ways to get community feedback on the metagame overall, but I figured I'd spark a discussion here where everyone can chime in freely. I believe Dynamax should be banned outright. How do you guys feel about Dynamax?

 

[Aberforth]

I feel simplicity will almost always be much more desirable for the metagame than complexity when it comes to clauses. Explaining the rules to someone who doesnt know ubers should be really quick and very intuitive. Telling people to look up a list of selected mons that we have collectively decided are too good to use dynamax with and remember them is not quick or intuitive, especially when there are things like two formes of Kyurem who dont fall under the same rule. I think the best solution would be banning dynamax as a whole.

This does mean that things like Drednaw and Charizard will get substancially worse, without their gmax formes, but I feel that maintaining niches like that isnt really worth preserving a mechanic where our best response to it is to make a list of the pokemon that abuse it too well, and say that those ones are off limits.

 

[theotherguytm]

Honestly it's just seems like "well, we gave it a try." It's somewhat hard to pin down what exactly made pre-HOME Dynamax more bearable. The hypothesis was put forward that it was the new Ubers that were the problem, and just stopping them Dynamaxing would be enough. Honestly I think this idea has failed in one important way: The Ubers Dynamax Banlist has not changed once since it was implemented.

The council recognized two things about this baseline that's worth further community investigation and discussion in the present day - Solgaleo could be taken off the list, and Kyurem-Black could be added to it. This is something we're interested in holding suspect tests on in near future to further refine the banlist. The direction this goes can be helped through community discussion as the metagame settles down.

Neither of these things have ended up happening, or even receiving serious discussion. Then DLC 1 comes out and Volcarona has become a serious threat with Dynamax but it is still allowed to. While Necrozma Dawn Wings cannot. Kyurem-Black has been allowed to remain off the Ubers Dynamax banlist for no reason besides a technicality on the whims of OU. Does that mean that if DLC 2 drops and OU decide that Xerneas is starting in OU for some reason then quickbans it after a day, Xern will be allowed to Dynamax? I thought the whole idea of basing the list off what was initially Uber was to prevent the Ubers metagame from being affected by OU bans?

I can't really blame the council on this, especially with the great job they did getting BP sorted quickly. I honestly think it kinda was doomed from the start because there was so much discussion on which Pokemon to have on the initial banlist, and no matter which metric you chose the list didn't look right. So the list was always going to need fine-tuning. But how to go about this? Have a suspect test each time something needs to go on or off the list? Quickban things from Dynamaxing without giving the community a say? No matter which way you want about it, the idea of fine-tuning the list was always going to be too high-maintenance for Ubers, where bans are supposed to be the exception rather than the norm.

While National Dex AG has successfully built a reasonably balanced metagame around Dynamax, it's hardly perfect. Necrozma Dusk Mane having 80+% usage and Ho-Oh/Arceus/Pdon (Pokemon that don't exist in Gen 8) also having very high usage, defensive teambuilding is often very restricted (though Zacian-C is the problem child for most teams lol). Yveltal and Xerneas are Dynamax abusers so potent they demand tailored answers to them on every team. National Dex also has things like Megas and Primals which cannot Dynamax, which steady the power level of Nat Dex AG somewhat, as a Dynamaxed Yveltal is somewhat comparable in threat level to a Dragon Dance Mega Ray. It should be noted as well that due to National Dex mechanics, Z-move users cannot Dynamax, which has only really served to wipe Z-moves out of the AG landscape, besides the occasional Z-move Eternatus (who cannot Dynamax anyway). If that isn't a telling indicator of how centralizing Dynamax is, well...

All these things don't exist in Galar Dex, and as a result Dynamax just ends up breaking the game, as for 3 turns Dynamaxed Pokemon are way, way stronger than most Ubers, flipping the power level of the game on its head. Unlike in Nat Dex where Yveltal and co are so far ahead of other potential Dynamaxers that it is reasonably predictable when the opponent will or won't Dynamax (and Dynamax can be stalled out by good play), in Galar Dex it's much more acceptable to Dynamax a Pokemon on the fly and pick up a surprise kill or two.

And, looking to the future, if Ultra Beasts are coming back, the prospect of the return of Aerial Ace Kartana in DLC 2 should send shivers down the spine of anyone who played early National Dex OU. Will Kartana be banned from Dynamaxing? How about Nagandel? Will that be treated differently if it gets instant banned vs if it sticks in OU for a few days? Can Ubers handle Swords Dance+Fly Lando-T and what happens to it if it is too much? All these questions have to be resolved before DLC 2 or Ubers is going to very quickly become messy.

 

[Fc]

Hey everyone, [Council Member] TonyFlygon checking in..

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that I'm speaking for myself in this post and not necessarily for the other council members. With that out of the way, I wanted to put some of my thoughts on the metagame together after talking about it in the Ubers Discord server yesterday.

For me the main thing now is using these two months we have until the second DLC drops to wrap up loose ends and to get the tier ready for what's coming. To me that boils down to going over Dynamax one more time. Zacian-Crowned is stupid good and perhaps even broken, but it's one of the few title legendaries available right now. I wouldn't want to do anything without seeing Zacian-Crowned among other titans like Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Groudon. The other loose end would be Shadow Tag. Gothitelle is a problem and something I could see myself wanting to address before I'd want to address Zacian-Crowned. Similarly, though, that's something I'd want to look after the whole gang has joined the tier. Dynamax, however, is different for me.

I have a few problems with the current Dynamax system. First and foremost it's a complete mess if you're from the outside looking in. While I have a long, long history with Ubers, this UPL was my first time playing SS Ubers. I really like the tier, don't get me wrong, but I actively avoided it for a while due to the clunky Dynamax policy. It's confusing and impossible to understand at a glance, which makes it extremely unfriendly at an entry level. For example, Kyurem-Black can Dynamax, while way worse Pokemon like Solgaleo and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings can't, only because they started in Ubers while Kyurem-Black lasted in OU for like a week. Not to mention that Kyurem-Black isn't even the sole problematic abuser, as non-Ubers Pokemon like Volcarona, Excadrill, Gyarados and more are incredibly threatening as well.

The problem lies in the mechanic, in my opinion. Dynamax was intended for Pokemon's official 4v4 and 3v3 formats and it simply doesn't suit Smogon's tiers. Even DOU banned Dynamax after giving it a real shot, and that's okay. I feel like Ubers is jumping through too many hoops to protect a mechanic that just isn't meant for 6v6. The Dynamax banlist is already extensive and would probably increase with a handful more if we decide against banning Dynamax overall. Add to that the fact that we're getting Pokemon like Landorus, Landorus-T, Blaziken, Salamence, Kartana, Zygarde, Naganadel, Tornadus-T, Garchomp, the Tapus and more in two months and you're looking at a huge Dynamax banlist if the current system remains in place. A banlist of Pokemon that are all allowed to be used normally, making it all the more confusing and significantly less inviting to try out Ubers for a change.

I joined the council wanting to contribute to making a change. I am and have been a very active and leadership figure of the tournaments community, a community that mostly sees and treats Ubers as outsiders. My main goal is to make as good of an argument as possible for Ubers to be part of the official tournaments circuit again down the line. We shouldn't accept being left out. The Ubers metagames often are some of the best, if not the best, of the generation, and yet the tier isn't being played outside of its own community. It's a massive shame and something we can start changing now. Part of Ubers' charm was always its simplicity. You can use them all, with the (justified) exception of Mega Rayquaza. SS Ubers is the opposite. SS Ubers is complicated and doesn't need Dynamax to be good or diverse at all.

The council is working on more official ways to get community feedback on the metagame overall, but I figured I'd spark a discussion here where everyone can chime in freely. I believe Dynamax should be banned outright. How do you guys feel about Dynamax?

I'm glad that council members are opening up this discussion more, since it's really important for the future of the tier and also the tier currently. Right now, I do think that the complex ban list doesn't have any problems in terms of the reasoning behind it, since it allows for more creativity while not allowing the super brokens like dusk mane, zekrom, and to an extent ditto to dynamax. I do get the reasoning however that it will be very hard to maintain this banlist when more threats such as the mentioned ones start to appear post dlc, but this thread is moreso for current SS so I'll stick to that. I think the problem with the banlist right now is that it hasn't been expanded upon or hasn't had enough discussion about being expanded upon since it's introduction. There are clear threats that are bordering broken right now such as kyurem-black, excadrill, gyarados, etc. I think that they add an extreme difficulty into teambuilding, but they are still manageable, just costly to the person on defense no matter how they are accounted for in team building. Currently, I would much prefer a type of expansion to the ban list rather than a full dynamax ban. It's not overly complicated to understand imo, the clause is just "some Pokémon can't dynamax, here's a list". I like the element of pressure and complexity that dynamaxing adds towards the tier, and it makes it feel unique. You set up an offensive mon and feel like your opponent is going to defensively dynamax in response? Switch and preserve this mechanic for later. Maybe limit yourself overall by bringing 2 dmax candidates and force mindgames with one of them but still weaken the other overall. I think that to justify a full dynamax ban at least right now it would have to prove that it can make at least a majority of Pokémon overbearing on teambuliding that can dynamax right now, and I don't think that's the case. There's only really a few super strong or possibly broken offensive options, and good balance teams just have to account for threats in the meta. I don't think that banning dynamax on something like quagsire or ferrothorn is as overwhelming as something like necrozma dusk mane by a longshot, so I do really like how dynamax is currently handled.

This is just my take on it, but I'm really willing to continue this discussion further since it's really important for the tier, and I could possibly change my view on it if more problematic things are discovered or just points against my stance on it are good enough to be more important than these elements. I just personally from experience have never found it impossible to deal with a threat using balance unless it's my own fault for not accounting for somethings which has happened before, but I understand that some people find it impossible or uncompetitive to have to deal with these possibilities and their threats in game as well.

 

[Inspirited]

In my honest opinion, the current dynamax clause has actually worked rather well to make DLC1 playable and interestingly different from previous metagames; Something I personally enjoy. There are a couple of problem children that others have brought up and I will be going over them later, but currently, this is actually pretty ok from a playability standpoint. First I want to address some of the very important points Tony and theotherguytm have brought up.

First and foremost it's a complete mess if you're from the outside looking in. While I have a long, long history with Ubers, this UPL was my first time playing SS Ubers. I really like the tier, don't get me wrong, but I actively avoided it for a while due to the clunky Dynamax policy. It's confusing and impossible to understand at a glance, which makes it extremely unfriendly at an entry level. For example, Kyurem-Black can Dynamax, while way worse Pokemon like Solgaleo and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings can't, only because they started in Ubers while Kyurem-Black lasted in OU for like a week. Not to mention that Kyurem-Black isn't even the sole problematic abuser, as non-Ubers Pokemon like Volcarona, Excadrill, Gyarados and more are incredibly threatening as well.

I was also late to the SS party and while I had different reasons for it, I agree that the current dynamax clause does look like a mess. I would like to propose a different solution to this problem though as I think there are very neat things that come from the current rules that I would personally like to see preserved. I am very willing to help out the awareness building process by writing more about these sort of sharp edges SS Ubers currently has and I hope that I and other can draw a sufficient amount of players who are willing to look into the tier to these articles. Something I miss from 2010 to 2015ish is the old RMT and article writing where someone aiming start playing a Ubers could see the though process that went into a team and bits of awareness from players like edgar, trickroom (yes even his meme teams had useful information in there in the form of replays), Lance, hack, many others including you Tony (think your own meet the team videos or that really neat vid on Tornadus-T you did). These would naturally come with tier knowledge and bits of awareness that has been built up through playing and therefor help shed a light on how certain sharp edges in Ubers are dealt with; Examples from the era being Extremekiller, Darkrai, Kyogre, Genesect + Spikes, Swift Swim users, Spikes in general etc. I suppose I am more of a purist, but from what I have see from UPL and players like Icemaster retaining absurd GXE in not only Ubers but in AG as well, I don't think the clause is entirely to blame for any for the difference in adversity we have seen recently (which may not even be that different from before tbh). Just because it looks like a mess doesn't mean it is a mess, but the reasoning does need to be put up in proof of play and detail in order to make sure the outside can see it for what it is. That being said, I do think the clause could be improved slightly. I hope this also covers what you had to say on the subject to some degree, theotherguytm and if you don't think it does I will gladly respond to what you think I missed. (for clarity on Tony's last statements, I am personally for Kyurem being added to the list)

I do think dynamax has been holding the tier together to a degree by offering some awesome rewards for good positioning and strong planning ability while also providing some defensive value against stuff like darm flinches or, in some cases, Zacian assaults that involve a crit or two. I think it is ok for DLC 1 though DLC 2 will be a different story. I don't think we can accurately predict what will happen with DLC 2 as humans really do suck at that sort of thing, so we will likely have to brute force our way through it and make adjustments as they are needed (and many will be needed probably). I won't be against just a blanket ban either if the returning mons are good enough to make the upsides of dynamax unnecessary with the downsides being as brutal as ever, then by all means throw it out.

Now the problem children of DLC 1:
: If it wasn't for Necrozma, this thing would absolutely need to be banned from dynamaxing and as it stands it still has enormous breaking potential because someone at gamefreak thought it was a good idea to give it Dragon Dance. Defensive dynamax usually won't save a player either in order to make up for Necrozma's need to not only deal Kyurem but Zacian as well. This is probably the one I am the closest to banning as its speed, power, and bulk when dynamaxed invalidates almost any type of revenge killing attempt outside of weather abusers. I think this is one of the bigger factors to player's match-up complaints. Maybe I am still unaware of many of the ways it can be handled, but my current list is so limited that this one probably should be on the chopping block at least once before DLC2 comes out.

: Volcarona has a particularly nasty sharp edge to it and can end the game as quickly as Kyurem, but it has quite a few more viable ways to revenge kill it even when dynamaxed due to its own Max Flare sun that it sets and relies on to a degree. It does have a nasty toolkit for wearing down defensive checks but I have a much bigger list of ways to deal with Volcarona that I am aware of. The places it can set up can look pretty unintuitive for the defending player while they are building their own awareness and can seem really dumb at times, but I think its learning curve leads you to a decent set of tools you can utilize across teams and throughout the game... so long as you are very careful. This might also be a part of the match up complaints I see, but I also think it helps deal with what would be bad matchups for its team quite well.

: This is similar to Volcarona in its game ending potential but it takes a bit more to set it up with either Sand Steam or a Max Rockfall target sitting in front of it. It is quite a bit more manageable than Volc or Kyurem as a few common mons threaten it with dynamax throwing those out the window only when considerable damage is applied to said threats. It and Zacian can overlap in terms of checks which can lead to a disaster if not careful, but bad match ups happen in every metagame and I think a match up like this is really doable if you understand where those two are strong and how you will handle those positions well in advance. I personally don't think dynamax Excadrill needs much looking into. Every time I am beaten by a dynamaxed Excadrill, it was a game I had no business winning anyways due to my own error.

Reflect and Light Screen: This is something that makes me want to ban dynamax altogether because it turns many dangerous Pokemon like Kyurem, Volcarona, or Gyarados into monsters that can't be revenge killed behind screens. Now it would be really stupid to ban Reflect and Light Screen so I hope I can figure this out through playing and learning, but so far the biggest offenders of dynamax are those that use it behind screens. You can shore up a team in many ways by planning to revenge kill rather than wall, but dynamax behind screens throws that all out the window. I will continue to work on this but I do think if we do ban dynamax as a whole, this should definitely be part of the reasoning.





I want to bring this post back to community-related issue though because I think this is super important and is why other people have a negative opinion on Ubers generation after generation ever since gen 6. Once people start sharing their experiences with the tier, it tends to clear up later in the generation. Perhaps starting the process earlier and updating as we go along is the way to help overcome this more quickly in the future. I would personally have players find the solutions before tiering steps in and we have had many examples of metagames being driven forward in the past because of this. This is somewhat foreign (not entirely but you get the picture) to other tiers where the tiering process is more active, but I think we are capable of sharing the whys, the understanding, and the mindset needed to play, find solutions for ourselves, and properly implement them into our play. I plan to be a part spreading this but doing it by myself isn't exactly effective so I will need more people to help out. Thanks for reading this massive post.

 

[Manaphy]

Hey, I’m gonna post here in support of banning dynamax as whole. Let me give my take as a council member.
As one of the original people supporting the initial dynamax list, you have to understand I wanted this clause to work out, and it has worked to some degree. I think the DLC1 metagame could be somewhat balanced with a few more mons added to the dyna list. However, that doesn’t mean the system isn’t flawed and things are going to be complicated much more by the arrival of DLC2.

First and foremost though, I think I should remind everybody exactly why we had the dynamax clause in the first place. I mentioned back in the day that I think Dynamax is an inherently broken mechanic. Simply put, as Tony said, it’s not a mechanic that is intended to work well in smogon’s singles 6v6 format. The mechanic inherently gives a boost to offense, because a player who dynamaxes first will always have that surprise advantage which is taken advantage of the most by offensive teams. Defensive dynamaxing is certainly useful, but you still are at a disadvantage because you are reactively using it to stop a threat; usually your opponent will have gotten a KO with their own dynamax abuser before you dynamax to stop it. This is an effect we can certainly see in the current metagame, where, even ignoring the obvious threat of Kyurem-B, things like Urshifu, Gyarados, Cinderace, Charizard, Excadrill, Drednaw, etc have a super strong offensive presence that usually determines the course of the game; I think everyone can agree that the current metagame is definitely much more favored to offense. There’s a reason that those dumb easy Screens Hyper Offense teams have done so well in UPL.

I knew all of these things were possible back in the day, so why did I support the clause? Simply put, I thought the clause would allow for a greater diversity of Pokemon to be usable in the tier. Especially in vanilla SS, dynamax was one of the key things making so many Pokemon usable, and the 3 legendary Pokemon being unable to dynamax made the tier become very balanced. I think that type of metagame is simply unable to exist in our current times, and it has less need to exist when we are getting more and more new Pokemon with each DLC release. I certainly think that many of the Pokemon now that can dynamax would still be useful post-ban, and with the new DLC coming we’re going to have many new Pokemon to spice the tier up, such that the point of the dynamax clause becomes moot.

Another thing. One of the critical flaws with the clause is that, under Smogon’s tiering system we simply have no good method to quickly address problem Pokemon. Many people were complaining about Kyurem-B and other Pokemon during UPL, but there simply wasn’t much that we could do at the time. Essentially, each new Pokemon we add to the list has to have it’s own suspect test, which takes a lot of time. Especially going into DLC2, we are going to have LOADS of new Pokemon that will be very difficult to stop with dynamax, and by supporting the dynamax list, there is really no other way to go about than suspecting each one individually. It may be possible to get the new ubers banned right away, but even that is not a guarentee. And even if those mons got banned, there would still be many, many more Pokemon that could abuse dynamax very strongly. I would expect to have at least a few months, if not more, of a very unbalanced metagame to come when DLC2 comes out, should we continue with the dynamax clause. I wish the system was faster too, or there was a better way to do it, but even as a council member I don’t make the rules here. And if there were a faster way to do it, that method would surely raise questions about it’s legitimacy, and there would be countless debates about which Pokemon should be included or not. Even in our current DLC1 meta, I think most people would agree with Kyurem-B, but what about the other Pokemon? Dragapult can single-handedly destroy most teams lacking Mandibuzz, Volcarona is very hard to stop, Excadrill is very strong, etc etc. Even still, do you think people would be able to come to an agreement on dynamax banning these mons? It would surely be highly contentious. How about a playstyle like Rain which has several different abusers. Let say you hit Drednaw, which you also hit Seismitoad, Kingdra, and others too? Sun and Sand basically only have a one or two abusers in comparison. Everything about this process is highly contentious, prone to nitpicking, and will take a lot of time.

Another point is one that Tony made, and I think it has some relevancy here. Getting Ubers back into the official tournament circuits would certainly be great for the tier as a whole. It would bring a whole new level of interest and competition into the tier, and our Ubers metagames have been some of the most balanced and interesting metas for the past few generations. Most of the problematic users of the past are gone now as well, so I don’t see why we can’t try to get Ubers back into official play.

Overall, if we end up banning dynamax, I don’t think the attempt we made at dynamax clause was a wasted effort at all. As a tier that is known for having the least bans possible, we can honestly say we gave it our best try, and we made a somewhat playable meta with the mechanic in tact. Ultimately as an unbalanced mechanic, I think it should be left for the Anything Goes meta to have. Call me too speculatory, but I think DLC2 is really what is going to break the camel’s back here; there’s simply too many threats that are coming, in addition to the ones we already have, that it will be impossible to even remotely cover the myriad of threats there will be. Expect hyper offense to rule the meta should that happen.

Personally, I would like to see the Dynamax issue resolved before DLC2, because otherwise we are going to have a very bad metagame for awhile, but unfortunately that may not be possible. It depends entirely on how people feel about it. I would rather have the issue solved so people can enjoy the newly released Pokemon, rather than people complaining about how bad the tier is due to Dynamax and we have to wait until the mechanic can be handled properly.

 

[Inspirited]

...The mechanic inherently gives a boost to offense, because a player who dynamaxes first will always have that surprise advantage which is taken advantage of the most by offensive teams. Defensive dynamaxing is certainly useful, but you still are at a disadvantage because you are reactively using it to stop a threat; usually your opponent will have gotten a KO with their own dynamax abuser before you dynamax to stop it. This is an effect we can certainly see in the current metagame, where, even ignoring the obvious threat of Kyurem-B, things like Urshifu, Gyarados, Cinderace, Charizard, Excadrill, Drednaw, etc have a super strong offensive presence that usually determines the course of the game; I think everyone can agree that the current metagame is definitely much more favored to offense. There’s a reason that those dumb easy Screens Hyper Offense teams have done so well in UPL.

I don't necessarilly see why a metagame being geared towards offense is really such a bad thing. Dynamax does allow the threats you mention to help drive the game in certain directions when strong positions for them are present and I do agree that it is stronger than things we have encountered before, but I don't think the strength of dynamax is so overbearing that we need to resort a blanket ban currently; doing so would hasty, and very possibly inaccurate response to a problem that we don't fully understand yet in my opinion.

Now I have to temper myself on the comment I made against screens above due to some research I did last night (playing with the sample screens myself and watching a few other notable players use it); Screens HO has some really strong positions that feel like bullshit before review, but it is a bit of a game for the screens player to buy enough turns in a row to effectively use them. Dynamax doesn't seem to come into play as often as I thought either with Gyarados being the only large scale offender behind screens in my research so far (I plan to test Volc, Urshifu, and maybe Cinderace later assuming they can fit on screens in a sensible fashion). I have only really had 1 Gyarados bullshitbutpreventable moment so far and I don't expect too many more of them to be honest. The research will continue.

I think I can address the rest of this without quoting... maybe.

The tiering process being slow is only really a problem when it comes to the tournament side of things, otherwise there is plenty of room to experiments with the new potentially-broken stuff coming our way and outline our responses with ways of taking advantage of them or holding them off; two things that are extremely necessary when figuring out where tiering should step in. Players and tend to do this very slowly and we can't have that with tournaments being as constant as they are. Ubers isn't the only tier that suffers from this but due to our focus on accurately calling bans and the ban being harder to implement than normal, we shouldn't just go quick banning stuff for the sake of the tournaments (something I am personally grateful we don't do).

A possible solution would be to create a trial season for a when the metagame shifts due to the introduction of a large amount of very powerful tools (like DLC 2) where "high stakes" tournaments would still use the older, matured format while the focus would be on hammering out the new one for this. This would satisfy the greater Ubers experiment that I and quite a few others love dearly while still offering something stable for the larger tournaments. Now, dividing Ubers activity is very dangerous and that is where this could falter pretty easily. It's not perfect but I would like to start discussion on this or solutions similar to this (somewhere more appropriate if necessary).

Disclaimer: I purposefully left detail out of the above paragraph so we can potentially work it into something great in the future

I will continue working on solutions that satisfy the greater Ubers experiment and also the tournament scene. I don't think hastily banning something before we get the chance to see it in action and react accordingly is correct as the possibility of inaccuracy is very high and completely throw a big part of why I and many others love and respect Ubers as much as we do. That being said, I am all for getting Ubers into tournaments again as it would be very good for the tier's exposure as a whole (the tier's exposure is something I am putting work into for the foreseeable future). I would rather build bridges between the two than see any of these idea be thrown out. I hope you guys feel the same way and can help.

 

[Ropalme1914]

I honestly think that bringing Crown Tundra for this discussion is not only irrelevant due to it not being the meta we play for now, but frankly can be detrimental to the discussion, as we're nothing more than theorymonning here, which, at least considering what I see on every other tier, is not desirable at all.

I also don't see how a Dynamax banlist is complicated at all: how is it different than banning Megas, especially Mega Rayquaza who wasn't banned at a teambuilder level? I feel like this is more of a Pokémon Showdown problem with its design not allowing to show it more clearly like it does with Megas than the ban itself being hard to understand. I understand the part of bans that can be applied on the builder is always more desirable than restrictions in-battle, but again, I don't think anyone had a problem with Mega Rayquaza despite it being the same thing except that Showdown could show it being banned more easily (and I still saw new players asking why they couldn't Mega Evolve their Rayquaza regardless).

Taking a look at the current banlist, on the other hand, is completely fair. Pokémon like Volcarona and Kyurem-Black do show to be extremely powerful on this meta, but it was said on the original post that new Pokémon could be added or removed from said banlist via suspect tests, with Kyurem-Black itself being used as a example, but we didn't have any so far. Going for a full ban of it without even trying what was proposed initially is also something that I don't think is a good ideia, as it kinda throws away all the discussion we had before and the conclusion reached.

Again, this is mostly discussing the current meta, as I think people are mixing up things with their fears with the new Pokémon. We of course have the Pokémon that would be on the banlist from the start, like Rayquaza, but also the other extremely dangerous ones that might not be, mainly the Ultra Beasts like Kartana and Naganadel, but even if it's kinda repetitive, going for a full ban on release would be based purely on theory and not on actual testing. A suspect test for the clause in general, if it does seem like there are too many threats to just put on a banlist after like, 2 weeks, would be fine, but not just starting with it banned and that's it, as broken as it may seem at first glance.