Aside from rain teams, I really think that its hard to counter play imo. Besides chansey i see no real safe way to approach this mon outside of, as I mentioned earlier, rain teams.
Volcarona fortunately didn't gain access to Earth Power like it was rumored to, and it didn't even really gain any notable tools besides Heavy-Duty Boots, but it is incredibly likely to do just fine with what it already has. Without Heatran, Volcarona is completely free to run Psychic so there isn't really any 4MSS to hold it back. Luckily, we still have Pokemon such as Chansey, Toxapex, Kommo-o, and Rotom-H available to check it, but will that be enough, or will Volcarona prove to be too much for SS OU? What do you think?
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Jumping from gen 5 to gen 8, let's says hi to Disaster Zone:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpA / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
The loss of HP Fire and Body Press being added to all steel types was a huge blow on zone viability howerver we still have tools to make it usefull. This specific spread makes that a full def ferro Body Press does 24,9% max damage on you enabling a safe substitute after going +2. Also, is important to note that a +2 zone isn't ohkoed by an Excadrill Earthquake. Thunderbolt already hit hard on SpD Skarmory, Corviknight and Mandibuzz (2hko it). The speed here is to creep adamant max speed Conkeldurr.
Another option is Air Ballon + Magnet Rise > Substitute as even at +0 you already do a ton to Excadrill.
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpA / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
The loss of HP Fire and Body Press being added to all steel types was a huge blow on zone viability howerver we still have tools to make it usefull. This specific spread makes that a full def ferro Body Press does 24,9% max damage on you enabling a safe substitute after going +2. Also, is important to note that a +2 zone isn't ohkoed by an Excadrill Earthquake. Thunderbolt already hit hard on SpD Skarmory, Corviknight and Mandibuzz (2hko it). The speed here is to creep adamant max speed Conkeldurr.
Another option is Air Ballon + Magnet Rise > Substitute as even at +0 you already do a ton to Excadrill.
+2 252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. +2 96 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 64-76 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50 - 59%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 224-266 (67 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. +2 96 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 220-264 (72.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. +2 96 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 64-76 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50 - 59%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 224-266 (67 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. +2 96 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 220-264 (72.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
There's always the old Sun/Moon OU approach of just slapping a 101+ speed scarfer with Stone Edge on your team and beating a boosted Volcarona 80% of the time. Personal choice is Keldeo, which now has Flip Turn for momentum so it isn't nearly as bad of a scarfer as it was last generation, and can even hard switch into the Volcarona as Psychic doesn't OHKO, and chances are they'll click a STAB or QD. It's worked well enough for the handful of games I've played at least.
The moth is still broken tho lol
Volcarona does get Hurricane, but the best counterplay will be Dual Wingbeat Talonflame with Heavy-Duty Boots.
Thanks to Dual Wingbeat and HDBs, Talonflame will be viable again.
Urshifu is going to be a force to be reckoned with in the metagame because of its sheer power and the fact that it has the necessary tools to abuse it.
In my opinion it only has 2 good sets at the moment but those 2 sets are all it needs.
Set 1: Choice Band
Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- U-turn / Sucker Punch
This set is pretty self explanatory. Urshifu's dual STAB is only resisted by Fairy-type Pokemon and Heracross (Buzzwole, we need you more than ever). Poison Jab can hit all Fairies that resist its Dual STAB for super effective damage. However, keep in mind that Banded Wicked Blow and Close Combat still 2HKO Specially Defensive Clefable. Physically defensive Clefable and the occasional necessity for a OHKO on Fairies are the reasons you run Poison Jab. Physically defensive Corviknight and Skarmory are also clean 2HKOed. Only Hippo narrowly escapes the 2HKO but it cannot get enough recovery via Slack Off to be comfortable unless it has Leftovers.
So to sum up, there are no guranteed switchins on Band Urshifu. You can play around it (for example switch into defensive Toxapex or Tangrowth to see what it locks itself into and then switch into your answer) but your pokemon still take a lot of damage in the process. This set definitely gives off Banded Hoopa-Unbound vibes. Banded Wicked Blow from Urshifu is a bit stronger than Banded Hyper Space Fury from Hoopa-U and there is also Close Combat next to it to make sure Magearna can't ruin the party. Not to mention Urshifu is faster than Hoopa, outspeeding stuff like Kyurem and Rotom. If you just get up Stealth Rock (not even Spikes), slow teams will just be broken apart.
Urshifu is, however, not too difficult to revenge kill for faster teams because of its frailty on the special side. Unboosted Fire Blast from Volcarona does over 80% damage and Life Orb Hydreigon OHKOs with Draco Meteor (though if you have Azumarill in the back it it them who will cry). Alakazam OHKOs too with Focus Blast (70% of the time), physical attackers like Cinderace and Hawlucha can do the job with supereffective STAB, Zeraora can kill with Play Rough e.t.c.
Banded Sucker Punch can allow it to revenge kill but locking oneself into Sucker Punch is often too risky with so many dangerous setup sweepers around. But then again you rarely click U-Turn anyway.
Set 2: Bulk Up
Urshifu @ Black Glasses
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Bulk Up
This set lacks the immediate wallbreaking power of Choice Band but Black Glasses Wicked Blow still has an over 70% chance to 2HKO Toxapex, Skarmory and Croviknight after Rocks and Hippo still loses long term. It does lose its ability to deal with Clefable without help from teammates though.
But in exchange it is now able to switch moves and is much harder to revenge kill thanks to Sucker Punch. Offensive Volcarona has a 60% chance to be OHKOed by +1 Sucker Punch. Zeraora is OHKOed, Choice Dragapult is OHKOed (but be careful of Will-o-Wisp). Cinderace can play mindgames with Bulk Up / Sucker Punch. Alakazam can maybe have Focus Sash or Substitute. Mimikyu can also beat you if its disguise is intact.
In practice, getting things in range of Sucker Punch is very doable with the help of Spikes and other priority users.
You can often get +2 too because Band is the most expected set, they go to their sac fodder as you Bulk Up and if the fodder cannot threaten Urshifu you can Bulk Up again.
In general I think Choice Band is the easiest to use while Bulk Up requires more support but can have a bigger payoff. It always depends on team needs. Either way, though, Urshifu seems like the best wallbreaker in the tier right now and with Bulk Up + Sucker Punch it can also pull off a sweep against offensive teams.
In my opinion it only has 2 good sets at the moment but those 2 sets are all it needs.
Set 1: Choice Band
Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- U-turn / Sucker Punch
This set is pretty self explanatory. Urshifu's dual STAB is only resisted by Fairy-type Pokemon and Heracross (Buzzwole, we need you more than ever). Poison Jab can hit all Fairies that resist its Dual STAB for super effective damage. However, keep in mind that Banded Wicked Blow and Close Combat still 2HKO Specially Defensive Clefable. Physically defensive Clefable and the occasional necessity for a OHKO on Fairies are the reasons you run Poison Jab. Physically defensive Corviknight and Skarmory are also clean 2HKOed. Only Hippo narrowly escapes the 2HKO but it cannot get enough recovery via Slack Off to be comfortable unless it has Leftovers.
So to sum up, there are no guranteed switchins on Band Urshifu. You can play around it (for example switch into defensive Toxapex or Tangrowth to see what it locks itself into and then switch into your answer) but your pokemon still take a lot of damage in the process. This set definitely gives off Banded Hoopa-Unbound vibes. Banded Wicked Blow from Urshifu is a bit stronger than Banded Hyper Space Fury from Hoopa-U and there is also Close Combat next to it to make sure Magearna can't ruin the party. Not to mention Urshifu is faster than Hoopa, outspeeding stuff like Kyurem and Rotom. If you just get up Stealth Rock (not even Spikes), slow teams will just be broken apart.
Urshifu is, however, not too difficult to revenge kill for faster teams because of its frailty on the special side. Unboosted Fire Blast from Volcarona does over 80% damage and Life Orb Hydreigon OHKOs with Draco Meteor (though if you have Azumarill in the back it it them who will cry). Alakazam OHKOs too with Focus Blast (70% of the time), physical attackers like Cinderace and Hawlucha can do the job with supereffective STAB, Zeraora can kill with Play Rough e.t.c.
Banded Sucker Punch can allow it to revenge kill but locking oneself into Sucker Punch is often too risky with so many dangerous setup sweepers around. But then again you rarely click U-Turn anyway.
Set 2: Bulk Up
Urshifu @ Black Glasses
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Bulk Up
This set lacks the immediate wallbreaking power of Choice Band but Black Glasses Wicked Blow still has an over 70% chance to 2HKO Toxapex, Skarmory and Croviknight after Rocks and Hippo still loses long term. It does lose its ability to deal with Clefable without help from teammates though.
But in exchange it is now able to switch moves and is much harder to revenge kill thanks to Sucker Punch. Offensive Volcarona has a 60% chance to be OHKOed by +1 Sucker Punch. Zeraora is OHKOed, Choice Dragapult is OHKOed (but be careful of Will-o-Wisp). Cinderace can play mindgames with Bulk Up / Sucker Punch. Alakazam can maybe have Focus Sash or Substitute. Mimikyu can also beat you if its disguise is intact.
In practice, getting things in range of Sucker Punch is very doable with the help of Spikes and other priority users.
You can often get +2 too because Band is the most expected set, they go to their sac fodder as you Bulk Up and if the fodder cannot threaten Urshifu you can Bulk Up again.
In general I think Choice Band is the easiest to use while Bulk Up requires more support but can have a bigger payoff. It always depends on team needs. Either way, though, Urshifu seems like the best wallbreaker in the tier right now and with Bulk Up + Sucker Punch it can also pull off a sweep against offensive teams.
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Alright, after some playing around with some goofy, terrible HO teams, I think I'm about ready to give my first impressions. I'll start by first answering the questions.
1: What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?
Murder Dog. I know a lot of people think that Lycanroc-Dusk is simply outclassed by Terrakion due to its better bulk and ease of setting up, but I think that Lycanroc has some really great niches that make it stand out a lot more in comparison to the Sword of Justice. Most prominently, its slightly greater speed tier, new access to Play Rough/Psychic Fangs, priority STAB, and more fruitful coverage options. While Terrakion is definitely a more consistent breaker, I feel that Lycanroc-Dusk's main niche will come in the form of its coverage, which allows for it to annihilate Kommo-o--a Pokemon that's among the tier's more prominent defensive Rock setters without set-up. Terrakion needs +2 to break through standard defensive Kommo-O, but Expert Belt Lycanroc needs nothing in order to achieve the OHKO.
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 365-432 (103.1 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 325-383 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
On top of this, its new access to Psychic Fangs lets it smash max defense Toxapex at +2 as well, a feat that it unfortunately was incapable of doing with Drill Run. Once more, here's another comparison!
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-369 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Though, I think the real kicker will come in the form of Screens HO. SD variants greatly appreciate Screen support to help it more safely set-up, and thanks to its Flying resistance, it is able to 1v1 Brave Bird Corviknight in the face of its Defog. Access to amazing coverage such as Drill Run, Psychic Fangs, and Fire Fang also give Lycanroc-Dusk a considerable offensive edge over Terrakion, and enables it to 1v1 things Terrakion otherwise struggles to best (most prominently Toxapex). Additionally, with its access to Tough Claws boosted STAB Accelerock and Close Combat, it can force switches against faster, frailer threats arguably even better than Terrakion, which can let it set up a Swords Dance, then wreak havoc. As such, I believe the standard item will likely be Life Orb or Expert Belt depending on what KOs are crucial for your set.
It's true that Terrakion overall is more consistent, but Lycanroc has some huge offensive advantages (namely its coverage and priority) that will shell it a good niche in the metagame, especially against the newfound Stall infestation.
2: What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?
Old habits die hard. These three I believe were hit the hardest, hugely because of what specifically came onto the scene.
Corviknight is now trappable and has some new competition in the form of Skarmory; the former flaw is more of note, because now it has to run a Shed Shell, which forces it to sack its passive recovery, or risk being trapped by Magnezone. It's true that Corviknight can just U-Turn out, but if it hopes to outspeed Magnezone, it needs to invest more speed at the cost of its valuable defense, or it needs to take a crucial hit before doing so.
Zeraora is hit hard with the return of Amoonguss and Tangrowth, both of which are incredible walls against its onslaught of coverage. I imagine that it will now need to run Fire coverage if it wants to break through these two, but even then, it will need Bulk Up if it wants to deal any actual damage. This is huge, namely because Bulk-Up Zeraora needs all 3 of its moveslots to maximize its effectiveness. If it gets rid of Knock Off, it can't beat Dragapult; if it gets rid of Close Combat/Drain Punch, it won't be able to as easily beat down the new Porygon2/Chansey, and Plasma Fists is out of the question. If anything, I would guess over its Fighting coverage, as Fire coverage still lets it beat Ferrothorn. Though, it now struggles a lot more offensively.
Chansey/Blissey. That is all that needs to be said about Kyurem. Before, it had little to no switch-ins, but its best checks just arrived, and they can Teleport right the hell out against it, forcing the Kyurem user to lose momentum. I wouldn't be surprised if Physical Kyurem becomes a thing just for these guys, but it loses a lot of its amazing immediate wallbreaking power in order to do so.
3: What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?
I can imagine Quagsire and Ditto once more rising in use now that they have actual stall cores to work with. Clefable beautifully supports them already, but now they have Chansey, Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Amoonguss to actually help support them. Ditto is a staple of Stall cores to prevent loose set-up, so I imagine that it's a huge winner as well.
Contrarily, I can also imagine some physical wallbreakers rising too to combat these Pokemon. Terrakion is the one that mostly comes to my mind, but Lycanroc-Dusk kind of gives it some competition due to its coverage. Terrakion is still amazing, though, and much less frail; its STAB Close Combat will be invaluable, especially.
The new DLC moves also bring some Pokemon further into viability: most notably, Indeedee and Rillaboom. The latter was already on the rise, but its new access to Grassy Glide gives its Banded set a greater role, and it appreciates Magnezone's support to beat down Corviknight and let it go to house. Expanding Force is fucking stupid if it's actually how it's coded in Showdown currently, so I can imagine that Male Indeedee would be a refreshed, interesting special wallbreaker in the tier consequently.
Flip Turn gives Keldeo more relevancy, too, as it can now pivot out against Toxapex and not fold momentum. Especially with Secret Sword being able to pry Chansey/Blissey apart, I can imagine that Keldeo will have new life breathed into it.
How do you feel about Galarian Slowbro and Urshifu?
It's cool! Shell Side Arm is a super cool tech with a really nice mechanic that I can imagine will be great against Stall cores, as Poison is a really great anti-meta offensive type, imo. I can imagine Specs variants can blow Tangrowth and Clefable away, and decently chunk things like Chansey, and Regenerator is an amazing ability for tank; its quad fighting resistance is neat, too. AV might be a sick tank, too. I don't think it'll be a top threat whatsoever, but I could see it have a niche as an anti-meta tank.
EDIT: Nevermind, Shell Side Arm sucks the way it's implemented. If it literally swaps to physical, then Galarian Slowbro kinda sucks. Shame; it has such a cool type combo.
I have no clue how to feel about it. It's most definitely not busted, but I find that it is actually a pretty neat stallbuster for its ability to penetrate protect and have critical hits land guaranteed on its moves, allowing it to break past its own attack drops and the opponent's defense rises. Being able to pop through Wish Clefable's protect is pretty big, as it can't just Wish willy-nilly on you, and having a Fighting-type along with Close Combat and Bulk Up is super useful too. It's got a pretty solid speed tier for the tier, too, but I can't help but feel that it is kind of underwhelming, honestly? At least the Rapid Strike version, anyway. It's cool, though, and has a niche, I imagine more as a balance buster.
1: What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?
Murder Dog. I know a lot of people think that Lycanroc-Dusk is simply outclassed by Terrakion due to its better bulk and ease of setting up, but I think that Lycanroc has some really great niches that make it stand out a lot more in comparison to the Sword of Justice. Most prominently, its slightly greater speed tier, new access to Play Rough/Psychic Fangs, priority STAB, and more fruitful coverage options. While Terrakion is definitely a more consistent breaker, I feel that Lycanroc-Dusk's main niche will come in the form of its coverage, which allows for it to annihilate Kommo-o--a Pokemon that's among the tier's more prominent defensive Rock setters without set-up. Terrakion needs +2 to break through standard defensive Kommo-O, but Expert Belt Lycanroc needs nothing in order to achieve the OHKO.
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 365-432 (103.1 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 325-383 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
On top of this, its new access to Psychic Fangs lets it smash max defense Toxapex at +2 as well, a feat that it unfortunately was incapable of doing with Drill Run. Once more, here's another comparison!
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-369 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Though, I think the real kicker will come in the form of Screens HO. SD variants greatly appreciate Screen support to help it more safely set-up, and thanks to its Flying resistance, it is able to 1v1 Brave Bird Corviknight in the face of its Defog. Access to amazing coverage such as Drill Run, Psychic Fangs, and Fire Fang also give Lycanroc-Dusk a considerable offensive edge over Terrakion, and enables it to 1v1 things Terrakion otherwise struggles to best (most prominently Toxapex). Additionally, with its access to Tough Claws boosted STAB Accelerock and Close Combat, it can force switches against faster, frailer threats arguably even better than Terrakion, which can let it set up a Swords Dance, then wreak havoc. As such, I believe the standard item will likely be Life Orb or Expert Belt depending on what KOs are crucial for your set.
It's true that Terrakion overall is more consistent, but Lycanroc has some huge offensive advantages (namely its coverage and priority) that will shell it a good niche in the metagame, especially against the newfound Stall infestation.
2: What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?
Old habits die hard. These three I believe were hit the hardest, hugely because of what specifically came onto the scene.
Corviknight is now trappable and has some new competition in the form of Skarmory; the former flaw is more of note, because now it has to run a Shed Shell, which forces it to sack its passive recovery, or risk being trapped by Magnezone. It's true that Corviknight can just U-Turn out, but if it hopes to outspeed Magnezone, it needs to invest more speed at the cost of its valuable defense, or it needs to take a crucial hit before doing so.
Zeraora is hit hard with the return of Amoonguss and Tangrowth, both of which are incredible walls against its onslaught of coverage. I imagine that it will now need to run Fire coverage if it wants to break through these two, but even then, it will need Bulk Up if it wants to deal any actual damage. This is huge, namely because Bulk-Up Zeraora needs all 3 of its moveslots to maximize its effectiveness. If it gets rid of Knock Off, it can't beat Dragapult; if it gets rid of Close Combat/Drain Punch, it won't be able to as easily beat down the new Porygon2/Chansey, and Plasma Fists is out of the question. If anything, I would guess over its Fighting coverage, as Fire coverage still lets it beat Ferrothorn. Though, it now struggles a lot more offensively.
Chansey/Blissey. That is all that needs to be said about Kyurem. Before, it had little to no switch-ins, but its best checks just arrived, and they can Teleport right the hell out against it, forcing the Kyurem user to lose momentum. I wouldn't be surprised if Physical Kyurem becomes a thing just for these guys, but it loses a lot of its amazing immediate wallbreaking power in order to do so.
3: What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?
I can imagine Quagsire and Ditto once more rising in use now that they have actual stall cores to work with. Clefable beautifully supports them already, but now they have Chansey, Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Amoonguss to actually help support them. Ditto is a staple of Stall cores to prevent loose set-up, so I imagine that it's a huge winner as well.
Contrarily, I can also imagine some physical wallbreakers rising too to combat these Pokemon. Terrakion is the one that mostly comes to my mind, but Lycanroc-Dusk kind of gives it some competition due to its coverage. Terrakion is still amazing, though, and much less frail; its STAB Close Combat will be invaluable, especially.
The new DLC moves also bring some Pokemon further into viability: most notably, Indeedee and Rillaboom. The latter was already on the rise, but its new access to Grassy Glide gives its Banded set a greater role, and it appreciates Magnezone's support to beat down Corviknight and let it go to house. Expanding Force is fucking stupid if it's actually how it's coded in Showdown currently, so I can imagine that Male Indeedee would be a refreshed, interesting special wallbreaker in the tier consequently.
Flip Turn gives Keldeo more relevancy, too, as it can now pivot out against Toxapex and not fold momentum. Especially with Secret Sword being able to pry Chansey/Blissey apart, I can imagine that Keldeo will have new life breathed into it.
How do you feel about Galarian Slowbro and Urshifu?
It's cool! Shell Side Arm is a super cool tech with a really nice mechanic that I can imagine will be great against Stall cores, as Poison is a really great anti-meta offensive type, imo. I can imagine Specs variants can blow Tangrowth and Clefable away, and decently chunk things like Chansey, and Regenerator is an amazing ability for tank; its quad fighting resistance is neat, too. AV might be a sick tank, too. I don't think it'll be a top threat whatsoever, but I could see it have a niche as an anti-meta tank.
EDIT: Nevermind, Shell Side Arm sucks the way it's implemented. If it literally swaps to physical, then Galarian Slowbro kinda sucks. Shame; it has such a cool type combo.
I have no clue how to feel about it. It's most definitely not busted, but I find that it is actually a pretty neat stallbuster for its ability to penetrate protect and have critical hits land guaranteed on its moves, allowing it to break past its own attack drops and the opponent's defense rises. Being able to pop through Wish Clefable's protect is pretty big, as it can't just Wish willy-nilly on you, and having a Fighting-type along with Close Combat and Bulk Up is super useful too. It's got a pretty solid speed tier for the tier, too, but I can't help but feel that it is kind of underwhelming, honestly? At least the Rapid Strike version, anyway. It's cool, though, and has a niche, I imagine more as a balance buster.
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Hey Caetano, I don't think your variant is really good because Corviknight can U-turn out of it, which you obviously don't want to happen with Zone. There are a couple variants that beat both Ferro and Corviknight which I think are more optimal than this one, like Expert Belt:
Magnezone @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
or 252 Def / 112 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Flash Cannon
The first spread doesn't have the guaranteed OHKO vs Corv but can outspeed Adamant Azumarill (and Skarms or Corvis that try to outspeed it) whereas the second one OHKOs Corviknight with Tbolt and can outspeed Primarinas that run 136 speed (though the 190 benchmark will not be as frequent anymore bc of Conkeldurr's likely drop in viability.
Overall I think Magnezone suffered from a great drop in viability, as it can get punished on the switch by the steels it's supposed to trap, and needs to trade an important amount of hp to beat Ferro. However it can still trap them if they don't run shed shell / a specific set made to beat zone 1v1, and zone has the option to come in against steel via teleport clef, which can perhaps make up for it.
Liquidation is better again fatter mons bc of the defense drop.
But i feel dark urshifu i gonna be close to S mon and water urshifu gonna drop and be uubl like most unreliable breaker
Hiiii
This is my first post, and im a super noob low ladder, but i have been trying my best to improve
today, I want opinions about Bug-Less Volcarona
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
Quiver dance cause is broken, psychic cause toxapex, but also fighting types, fiery dance to hit pretty much everything and Giga Drain for recovery, do you guys think this is will be the standard Volcarona? or it can be more optimized? (also sorry for bad english)
This is my first post, and im a super noob low ladder, but i have been trying my best to improve
today, I want opinions about Bug-Less Volcarona
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
Quiver dance cause is broken, psychic cause toxapex, but also fighting types, fiery dance to hit pretty much everything and Giga Drain for recovery, do you guys think this is will be the standard Volcarona? or it can be more optimized? (also sorry for bad english)
You already hit the Giga Drain tagets with Psychic + Bug Buzz and Buzz is needed to defeat Tyranitar.
Fiery Dance have it's merits but the standart will be Fire Blast for nuking purposes.
Adding on to ^, you also miss out on Hydreigon and Incineroar. I think the 3A set with both STABs tends to be your most consistent bet seeing how common some of the Dark types can be.
Speaking of Volcarona, what are some good checks to it defensive and offensively?
Flinch... I mean Toxapex and Chansey/Blissey are no brainers for checking the Moth and honestly predict Pex will be S- (although that’s discussion for the viability ranking) because of Volcarona’s power and being better at checking Volcarona than Chansey. Blissey included since it will have a niche over Chansey in some regards.
Talonflame is the best offensive check that comes to mind as it resists its STABs and can still OHKO Volcarona with Dual Wingbeat while maintaining priority.
Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Urshifu-RS (maybe Scarf Urshifu-SS) will also be good offensive checks to Volcarona, also resisting its STABs, but Urshifu won’t outspees Timid versions of Volcarona.
Anyone like to mention anything else?
Flinch... I mean Toxapex and Chansey/Blissey are no brainers for checking the Moth and honestly predict Pex will be S- (although that’s discussion for the viability ranking) because of Volcarona’s power and being better at checking Volcarona than Chansey. Blissey included since it will have a niche over Chansey in some regards.
Talonflame is the best offensive check that comes to mind as it resists its STABs and can still OHKO Volcarona with Dual Wingbeat while maintaining priority.
Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Urshifu-RS (maybe Scarf Urshifu-SS) will also be good offensive checks to Volcarona, also resisting its STABs, but Urshifu won’t outspees Timid versions of Volcarona.
Anyone like to mention anything else?
Crawdaunt is really loving the new meta. The lobster has always been great at wallbreaking fat cores and will only have it's viability boosted now that fat regen cores are coming back. It also serves as a pretty solid Volc check - pretty reliably OHKO'ing with LO Jet. Lastly, adding Magearna and P2 back in the game revives Trick Room teams, which is another place Crawdaunt often shines.
There is
252 Atk Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 328-388 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 280-332 (90 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
But I don't think Def Volcarona will be ever a thing again, so basically Crawdaunt 1HKO.
Urshifu-RS can check only non-Timid Volcarona, because at +1 is 1HKO by Psychic (only brainless people will not put Psychic on Volcarona right now).
I believed that the best way to deal with the big moth is to revengekill with priority abuser or faster hard hitter, or with Chansey/Blissey ToxProtect.
This:
252 Atk Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 328-388 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 280-332 (90 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
But I don't think Def Volcarona will be ever a thing again, so basically Crawdaunt 1HKO.
Urshifu-RS can check only non-Timid Volcarona, because at +1 is 1HKO by Psychic (only brainless people will not put Psychic on Volcarona right now).
I believed that the best way to deal with the big moth is to revengekill with priority abuser or faster hard hitter, or with Chansey/Blissey ToxProtect.
Defensive:
Offensive:
252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 314-374 (100.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 268-320 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 210-248 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Special pult loses tho.
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 499-593 (133.7 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 220-259 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 256-303 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 151-178 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
EDIT: forgot these two:
There's also scarfers for dealing with a +1 volc such as Stone edge Mienshao and scarf Terrakion off the top of my head.
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IMO volc is not as big of a deal as some are making it out to be. Been watching a lot of replays (1700+ elo) and I've only seen volc in about 40-50% of them, more often than not being RK'd or walled with the occasional late game clean up sweep, and i've seen a disturbing lack of chansey's/talonflame being ran for a 'volcarona pandemic'. Its definitely top tier but like.. seeing day 1 'ban it post' i think is jumping to conclusions without testing everything lol..
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People keep mentioning Toxapex as a Volcarona check, but let's remember Volcarona is free to run Psychic now. I could maybe be talked out of it, but I'm favoring Modest over Timid on Volcarona. Only thing you miss out on at +1 is outspeeding scarf Hydreigon which is only doing ~50% with Draco Meteor, and tying scarf Jirachi. It's somewhat unfortunate not being able to outspeed Excadrill without setup, but I think it's worth it for this calc alone:
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
For Toxapex, likely everyone will be using Specially Defensive variants since those actually have a shot at beating Volcarona if it's Timid.
And if it's modest, that means you're vulnerable to Scarfed Base 87 and faster Pokemon after a Quiver Dance.
Scarf Urshifu (as mentioned), Excadrill, and Krookodile now stop your sweep.
Modest Volcarona +1 can't outspeed Scarf variant of Excadrill and Urshifu RS, which oneshot Volc.
Maybe I'm speaking too soon and it'll show itself to be extremely oppressive as things settle down, but I'm really a fan of Magearna's prescence in the meta so far. It seems like there's a set for every teamstyle (cm+pain split for balance, AV for balance, bulky offense, and even stall given its one of the few sorta answers to broke NP Zam, SG+cm for hyper offense) and it almost never underperforms, though I will say it kinda hates sand balance due to Excadrill and Ferro, especially if its lacking Focus blast (Which is definitely more of a possibility with Heatran gone).
Another thing worth noting is that the prevelance of knock and the loss of z means that its lack of a reliable recovery is really showing itself to be more of an issue than before, although wishport makes it less of a problem than one would assume at first. Not much else to add really, I like how it feels to use and I like playing around it :>.
Another thing worth noting is that the prevelance of knock and the loss of z means that its lack of a reliable recovery is really showing itself to be more of an issue than before, although wishport makes it less of a problem than one would assume at first. Not much else to add really, I like how it feels to use and I like playing around it :>.
Weaker and less flexible. Fairium let you use Fleur Cannon in the early game to chunk holes in the opponent's team before coming in late game and blowing something up with Twinkle Tackle. With White Herb, you have to make your first Fleur Cannon count.
Hi so I would like to bring up the move Rising Voltage on electric terrain teams:
It's actually extremely strong and gives a niche to raichu-alola in the ou tier in the current moment as with surge surfer provides great offensive pressure against more offensive teams. Also on specs analytic Magnezone it actually has no switchins as it 2hits Chansey upon switch-in. Overall with the single addition of this move it provides great versatility to electric-terrain teams.
Hyperbeam may be weird but it magnezone really doesn't get any other moves worth it on the last slot. With hyperbeam you are able to essentially break most stalls with quagsire as their ground with a well timed attack. The other moves essentially create a situation where stalls and bulkier teams can't switch anything in to sponge the hit.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1135223705-05wpkchxqyfdi0e7j25wkqmtmhj7pjvpw replay showcasing the magnezone's ability to stallbreak with this set.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1135197545-w4surn71na6ylfksk20qqhpmo9kx9ykpw replay showcasing the raichu's ability to apply offensive pressure to an offensive team as well as showcasing magnezone grabbing a free kill.
Overall having fun with the new meta just wanted to shine a spotlight on electric terrain and its great move addition in rising voltage!
It's actually extremely strong and gives a niche to raichu-alola in the ou tier in the current moment as with surge surfer provides great offensive pressure against more offensive teams. Also on specs analytic Magnezone it actually has no switchins as it 2hits Chansey upon switch-in. Overall with the single addition of this move it provides great versatility to electric-terrain teams.
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hyper Beam
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hyper Beam
Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Rising Voltage
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Rising Voltage
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1135223705-05wpkchxqyfdi0e7j25wkqmtmhj7pjvpw replay showcasing the magnezone's ability to stallbreak with this set.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1135197545-w4surn71na6ylfksk20qqhpmo9kx9ykpw replay showcasing the raichu's ability to apply offensive pressure to an offensive team as well as showcasing magnezone grabbing a free kill.
Overall having fun with the new meta just wanted to shine a spotlight on electric terrain and its great move addition in rising voltage!
Magearna @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Pain Split
Bc fuck bitch ass teleport chansey. Steal that eviolite and give that fat ass a toxic orb instead. Then swap that eviolite out to somebody else, you know the drill. Speed evs let u creep conk, defense to tank various physical attackers like urshifu, hawlucha, azu etc. U can change up spread/any move depending on team though, toxic orb+trick is the tech here.
Pair with mons that appreciate chansey being permanently toxic'd, like maybe sub hex pult (esp. now that clefable wont be sdef), recover zam, hydra, kyurem, etc etc
Of course, chansey isn't the only target for trick+toxic orb. Fire types like rotom-heat, cinderace, volcarona will get their boots snatched. Unfortunately, this tech can't target steel types like ferro/zone/opposing magearna or toxapex, so be sure to pair accordingly with wallbreakers after u volt switch on em.
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Pain Split
Bc fuck bitch ass teleport chansey. Steal that eviolite and give that fat ass a toxic orb instead. Then swap that eviolite out to somebody else, you know the drill. Speed evs let u creep conk, defense to tank various physical attackers like urshifu, hawlucha, azu etc. U can change up spread/any move depending on team though, toxic orb+trick is the tech here.
Pair with mons that appreciate chansey being permanently toxic'd, like maybe sub hex pult (esp. now that clefable wont be sdef), recover zam, hydra, kyurem, etc etc
Of course, chansey isn't the only target for trick+toxic orb. Fire types like rotom-heat, cinderace, volcarona will get their boots snatched. Unfortunately, this tech can't target steel types like ferro/zone/opposing magearna or toxapex, so be sure to pair accordingly with wallbreakers after u volt switch on em.
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