Huge thanks to the council for suspect-testing Magearna.
Magearna is now being suspected; be sure to check out the suspect thread and leave your thoughts there once it is opened later tomorrow!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...round-5-switching-gears.3667669/#post-8544372
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)
- Thread starter TPP
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totally agree w/ this, I've also done a lot of calcs recently to try and find a reliable counter for Urshifu, and there really isn't one. Any "counter" relies upon getting a 50/50 right or lucking out on move coverage. For example, say you're running Anger Point Krook hoping to bait the wicked blow, well better hope you get that 50/50 right and your opponent doesn't go for CC. Say you switch in Rocky Helmet Amoongus predicting the CC, but oh no your opponent went for wicked blow and now you're screwed. Physically defensive Clef? Hope your opponent isn't running a banded set w/ poison jab coverage. Weezing is supposed to be a good check, but if people run it enough your opponent can just drop poison jab for iron head.
A lot of times I'm having to dedicate an entire mon and a half just to hopefully check Urshifu, and even then if I get one 50/50 wrong or my opponent is running the right coverage I could easily lose the game. I mean the fact that I'm even running scarfed anger point Krook, a set that no one would ever run in OU otherwise (Krook itself is a good mon of course it's just normally intimidate is such a good ability) just speaks to how much pressure Urshifu applies to team building. It sucks that due to it's dark typing, you can't just slow it down by Prankster thunder waving it. "Checking" it nowadays seems reliant upon getting the CC/wicked blow 50/50 right w/ rocky helmet Amoongus and sporing, or thunder waving w/ Clefable and hoping for paras. The fact that Clef is even running physically defensive just speaks to how powerful Urshifu is, something that is 4x weak to it's main stab attack! It would be amazing if we had a good intimidate mon that both resisted dark while not being dark type itself so CC isn't a threat, or if Urshifu just didn't have access to BOTH poison jab and iron head.
tl;dr Urshifu's coverage (particularly against fairy types), raw power, and convenient typing in the meta is very overwhelming to deal with currently. Even if you dedicate one or 2 mons to try and "check" it, you still have to win decisive 50/50s. Not to mention it's natural bulk is quite underrated as well, it's no glass cannon
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One small nitpick about your hawlucha set is that you could actually run 88 speed with a +speed nature in order to creep even +speed nature urshifu's. This way you wouldn't even need heavy duty boots to avoid the 2hko as you can just roost spam until urshifu runs out of pp. The only downside to not having heavy duty boots, however, is that urshifu can then just uturn on you for free if it has that. Personally I have been finding a lot of success with helmet to punish the occasional uturn urshifu as well as not having to run flying press at all.
But ya I wholeheartedly agree that urshifu counters are very few and 95% of the time your urshifu counterplay is just pivot around on stab moves trying not to die. And while a fighting resist regen mon (pex/amoongus/slowbro) + mandibuzz is usually good enough for band urshifu, on the occasion where you try to pivot around on an assumed band urshifu and it ends up being a bulk up urshifu then you're in big trouble. Against bulk up urshifu which normally doesn't run poison jab or iron head, you basically need a fairy type of some sort or it becomes nearly impossible to deal with. Other than its ridiculous strength and ample coverage options, one of the main reasons urshifu is so hard to play around is because of sucker punch. Giving a pokemon that's already that strong access to a priority move to beat most of its offensive checks is just so disgusting.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 309-367 (97.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 309-367 (102.6 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obviously things like Alakazam and Dragapult fall over instantly, but the latter can avoid sucker mind games with either wisp or twave.
Even some weather sweepers like kingdra and venusaur aren't reliable answers as you only live some of the time.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 286-339 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 255-302 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Sucker punch basically single-handedly removes a lot of the offensive counterplay otherwise available to beat urshifu. Banded is someone easier to deal with offensively because at least you can be sure it's not going to turn around a sucker punch you. But when you're dealing with bulk up, you basically have to play sucker mind games with your revenge killer unless you resist sucker punch. And as far as defensive counterplay goes, urshifu is so monstrously strong with its banded you basically have to predict correctly or take 60+ on your defensive pokemon trying to switch in on urshifu. LO bulk up is even worse as the 1.5x from bulk up combined with the 1.3 from life orb makes it hit even harder than normal banded after a single bulk up. On the bright side, it does weaken itself slowly by taking 10% each time it attacks, and if you use helmet + sand you can eventually wear it down to the point where it just dies. The thing is though by the time you've worn it down, its probably already tore 7 holes in your team and then another one of its teammates just sweeps you from there.
This meta is awful. You can run 3 Magearna checks and still get run over by this garbage if it crits you or wins a 50/50. Speaking of this meta the survey recently had very interesting results. If we consider "Melmetal it / suspect test it" the same as "quick ban it" (because really they basically are the same but different levels of confidence) that leaves us with:
75% of WCoP players think Magearna is probably broken.
78% for Cinderace
63% for Urshifu
About 60% of players surveyed rate the meta 3/5 or lower. Around 70% rate it 3/5 or lower in terms of "better player wins".
Honestly the thread covers it best. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-survey-results.3667647/
I guess I'm thankful Mag is getting tested now instead of being Dugtrio'd for several months. Still maybe a Mag quick ban + Cinder test would have been more effective. I mean we all know what the result of Mag's test will be.
Honestly the Mag / Cinder / Urshifu garbage is making the ladder almost as boring as the Clef spam in early gen 8. There are so few things that beat the big 3 and even they risk losing to hax. Team building options atm are strangled by fear of one of these mons clicking a button and winning.
On the other hand a bunch of extra Pokemon has injected some new life into this game. I'm optimistic for the eventual future once all the bans get settled.
Also I hit 1750 with Light Ball Fling Blissey rofl. Thank you Magearna for making that bullshit vaguely viable.
Edit: I am very drunk right now so I apologize for any spelling errors in advance.
75% of WCoP players think Magearna is probably broken.
78% for Cinderace
63% for Urshifu
About 60% of players surveyed rate the meta 3/5 or lower. Around 70% rate it 3/5 or lower in terms of "better player wins".
Honestly the thread covers it best. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-survey-results.3667647/
I guess I'm thankful Mag is getting tested now instead of being Dugtrio'd for several months. Still maybe a Mag quick ban + Cinder test would have been more effective. I mean we all know what the result of Mag's test will be.
Honestly the Mag / Cinder / Urshifu garbage is making the ladder almost as boring as the Clef spam in early gen 8. There are so few things that beat the big 3 and even they risk losing to hax. Team building options atm are strangled by fear of one of these mons clicking a button and winning.
On the other hand a bunch of extra Pokemon has injected some new life into this game. I'm optimistic for the eventual future once all the bans get settled.
Also I hit 1750 with Light Ball Fling Blissey rofl. Thank you Magearna for making that bullshit vaguely viable.
Edit: I am very drunk right now so I apologize for any spelling errors in advance.
Anyone else tried life orb DD Gyarados lately? I've been running the following:
Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Power Whip
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
Albeit I've only gotten to around 1500 using this mon, it can clean up pretty quickly if you can get it in against something passive it can clean up pretty quickly. Obviously this thing is going to get worn down but after one DD it outspeeds the entire meta and deals some nasty damage afterwards. Check out these calcs:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 292-344 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 367-434 (100.8 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 204-240 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 329-387 (46.7 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Easily takes a Cinerace sucker punch and kills it with EQ:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It loses straight up to Tangrowth, and can't really handle Ferrothorn or Urshifu-SS but if this thing gets in and gets a boost or two it's going to rip apart most offensive teams and can do a good job managing even defensive minded threats.
Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Power Whip
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
Albeit I've only gotten to around 1500 using this mon, it can clean up pretty quickly if you can get it in against something passive it can clean up pretty quickly. Obviously this thing is going to get worn down but after one DD it outspeeds the entire meta and deals some nasty damage afterwards. Check out these calcs:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 292-344 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 367-434 (100.8 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 204-240 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 329-387 (46.7 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Easily takes a Cinerace sucker punch and kills it with EQ:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It loses straight up to Tangrowth, and can't really handle Ferrothorn or Urshifu-SS but if this thing gets in and gets a boost or two it's going to rip apart most offensive teams and can do a good job managing even defensive minded threats.
And that doesn't even count the fact that it has lots of versatility for one Pokemon, having access to both a Great Choice Specs/Scarf User, And a Great Set-up Sweeper on the same Pokemon that has Arguably has the best Defensive Typing AND 130 Sp.Atk Is a little Extreme Imo
Also I feel like Two Pokemon are Gonna Suffer the most from one Pokemon for the same reason, they're
and 
, "But Why?" You Maybe Asking, Well this Boomer 
Destroys (With Grassy Glide Under Grassy Terrain) Belly-Drum Azumarill Because It has a 2 times Weakness and Alakazam Because It has LC Tier Defense (With no Eviolite)
I agree that these three Pokémon are defining the meta (and decisions in the teambuilder) but I’m still having fun in this tier.
One thing I have noticed is that Ice typing is very strong right now. Mandibuzz, Pex, Slowbro, Hippo, and Amoongus are all great defensive pokes that help combat the big three and they all get destroyed by Mamo or Kyurem (for example). The drawback for ice types right now is, of course, being food for Cinderace and Mag. When mag is gone Kyurem is better and if Cinderace leaves, even better still.
I'm hoping
will gain some more relevance if (when) Mag is banned. New access to Triple Axel, faster than Cinderace, and Knock Off spam is better cuz no Z moves/megas
I've been using SD Adamant Mold Breaker Haxorus to great effect right now. It's actually super good in this meta with all the fat mons teams are running to check the main threats like Urshifu and Cinderace. I had SD, Outrage, EQ and poison jab for destroying clef with Lum berry to prevent momentum loss from pex/amoongus. Even taunt is viable to prevent hippo from using slack off or whirlwind.
Here's some calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 463-546 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 304-358 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I"ve been running with Zone with it, but there's a huge drop off in corvi usage, that I feel like Zone isn't mandatory. You could get away with CC instead of EQ for neutral coverage, although I prefer EQ because pex is super common right now.
Thoughts?
Here's some calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 463-546 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 304-358 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I"ve been running with Zone with it, but there's a huge drop off in corvi usage, that I feel like Zone isn't mandatory. You could get away with CC instead of EQ for neutral coverage, although I prefer EQ because pex is super common right now.
Thoughts?
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yess it's access to stab sucker punch is very underrated, I don't see people often talk about it as much. One of the soft "checks" to Urshifu is it's speed, being outsped by a myriad of 100+ base speed mons. But I guess game freak just said "F it" and decided to just give it a strong stab priority attack anyways lol. At least w/ sucker you still have to play some mind games, but once your opponent gets a bulk up or 2 up he doesn't even have to play mind games w/ the sucker, it's just too much of a threat to where you're forced to attack.
I just wish instead of giving it a signature move that crits every time, Game Freak had just gave it the same attack w/ the same base power (so wicked blow should be 120 BP right since it's 1.5x 80 right?). At least that way, you could cripple it w/ will-o-wisps, scald burns, or intimidates. Often times in the end/mid game your opponent doesn't even have to mind Urshifu getting burnt or intimidated, which is just ridiculous considering how strong of a physical attacker it is.
A lot of people say that Urshifu isn't that much of a problem because most of it's "counters" like Mandibuzz, Clef, Amoongus, are all already amazing mons that you'd probably want to run any way. It's not like w/ Dracovish where people are running a mediocre mon like Seismitoad just to counter it, a mon that normally has a hard time finding a reliable place in OU (tho it seems to always ends up having an alright niche). I totally get this argument, as slapping on Mandibuzz or Clef on any team is basically always a good addition/core, but still... I hate that I feel compelled to use them on every team I build. You could honestly make a similar argument w/ Magearna, as some of it's counters like Rotom-H and Marowak are already amazing mons you wouldn't mind running any way. However, it still ultimately restricts team building significantly
I've been wanting to run Gyarados cuz it's one of my all-time favorite mons but I've had little success w/ it. Even at +1 attack w/ EQ coverage you get walled by Toxapex (EQ does about half) and Pex can just scald burn you (I swear Scald has been the single worst move addition for Pokemon gameplay, giving essentially all water types a no-draw back stab attack). Also I've found that w/o intimidate it has a hard time setting up, and even when it does, you end up taking immense damage and due to life orb recoil you'll only have a couple of hits left, if you don't get revenge killed that is considering a lot of scarfed mons will easily outspeed Gyarados even w/ a single DD boost. Gyarados does appreciate the seemingly lack of electric offensive threats this gen tho, as Zeraora and Rotom-H seem to be the only ones considering Magnezone is pretty trash rn. Have you tried running HBD instead of life orb? I feel like Gyarados may appreciate that Intimidate + HDB combo as it gives it a greater chance to set up DDs.
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I think you should run it with lum berry. Not only does it prevent the scald, it also prevents amoongus's spore, and mons with hypnosis. Plus, without life orb, the rocks won't do as much. When I was using Gyarados in the pre-home meta, before zeraora, it was all I could do to not get a gyarados sweep on low ladder. Although the introduction of zeraora as a reliable revenge killer without some ddances up, and the absence of seismitoad as set up fodder has hindered it a bit, I bet it could still put in some work.
On the subject of Gyarados, I really don’t believe it’s worth using in OU.
Consider its mediocrity even in BW/BW2, when it first gained access to Moxie. It became decent in XY/ORAS upon receiving a Mega Evolution, and gained another decent option in SM/USUM with Z moves, particularly for Bounce, and to a lesser extent, Waterfall. Gyarados is fortunate to be able to run Heavy-Duty Boots now to mitigate its hazard weakness, but it’s lost its best tools in the transition to SS, and as a result isn’t in much of a better place today than it was ten years ago.
Rather than rely on metagame history, I’ll briefly discuss current issues it faces. It is checked or countered by the following:
(Unaware) 
And I’m sure there’s more I forgot to list. Any combination of Waterfall, Bounce, Earthquake, and Power Whip is inevitably walled by some of them, and some wall it regardless of coverage and/or can quickly status it or kill it in return. Not to mention that Gyarados would also like to use Substitute or Taunt.
Gyarados does not appreciate being revenge-killed by the tier’s viable scarfers, most of which outpace it at +1, or by priority in the forms of Grassy Glide, Sucker Punch, even the rare Ice Shard.
Gyarados simply has too many high-usage checks and counters to warrant use. It is not nearly powerful enough nor fast enough to deal with them, and cannot consistently function well in the meta.
Consider its mediocrity even in BW/BW2, when it first gained access to Moxie. It became decent in XY/ORAS upon receiving a Mega Evolution, and gained another decent option in SM/USUM with Z moves, particularly for Bounce, and to a lesser extent, Waterfall. Gyarados is fortunate to be able to run Heavy-Duty Boots now to mitigate its hazard weakness, but it’s lost its best tools in the transition to SS, and as a result isn’t in much of a better place today than it was ten years ago.
Rather than rely on metagame history, I’ll briefly discuss current issues it faces. It is checked or countered by the following:
(Unaware) And I’m sure there’s more I forgot to list. Any combination of Waterfall, Bounce, Earthquake, and Power Whip is inevitably walled by some of them, and some wall it regardless of coverage and/or can quickly status it or kill it in return. Not to mention that Gyarados would also like to use Substitute or Taunt.
Gyarados does not appreciate being revenge-killed by the tier’s viable scarfers, most of which outpace it at +1, or by priority in the forms of Grassy Glide, Sucker Punch, even the rare Ice Shard.
Gyarados simply has too many high-usage checks and counters to warrant use. It is not nearly powerful enough nor fast enough to deal with them, and cannot consistently function well in the meta.
Here's a mon I'm really enjoying at the moment...
Scarf Diggersby. Most people run Stallbreaker SD or Band, which definitely have their places on the right teams. But Scarf has a couple of really nice niches that I think work well in the meta. I'm sure I'm missing other common scenarios Scarf Digger is good in, but off the top of my head:
Diggersby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- U-turn
Scarf Diggersby. Most people run Stallbreaker SD or Band, which definitely have their places on the right teams. But Scarf has a couple of really nice niches that I think work well in the meta. I'm sure I'm missing other common scenarios Scarf Digger is good in, but off the top of my head:
- Checking Dragapult (EDIT: Kinda). Knock Off kills it dead unless it's running a weird defensive set (which to the best of my knowledge nobody is). The fact that Scarf Digger isn't really used means a Pult will come in off a U-Turn, Teleport, Expecting to revenge kill you etc., will go for the Draco (or U-Turn) expecting to finish you off, and will then get bopped by a surprise Knock Off. That's huge. And if you get in on Pult, and the opponent is smart enough to switch out, nothing else really wants to be taking an Adamant Huge Power Knock from Digger. EDIT: YOu have to be running JOLLY Digger, and it actually only checks Pults that are running anything other than max speed e.g. Specs Modest. My bad.
- Obliterating Cinderace. Maybe it's more of a thing on lower ladder, but people often lead Cinderace because it's borderline broken, and you can usually get off a pretty safe U-Turn on their rocker etc. It's pretty low-risk, low-reward. You outspeed max speec Cinderace by like 4 points even when you're running Adamant and obviously kill with EQ. It's no secret that taking somebody's Cinderace off of them in the early to mid game is huge, because it really dismantles a lot of teams right now.
- Good against Mag. A nice check to Mag - even if she's not going to be around for much longer. You also outspeed Mag even when they run Timid and are at +2. That's pretty huge, because SG + CM Mag can be a real headache for some teams, and it's so good to be able to threaten her out even after a SG boost. In short, being able to check a bunch of Mag sets in one mon is really great.
- Generally nice pivot. Good attack, access to Knock and U-Turn... Digger is just a really nice pivot. And against slower teams that can't risk you clicking SD, you force a lot of switches and gain a lot of momentum. Running a mon that is usually for setup as a pivot instead is great and can make things really awkward for whoever you're up against.
- No access to Frustration is annoying but... It frees up a slot to run Toxic. Hippo is on quite a few teams at the moment and is a frequent switch-in to Digger, expecially once they know you're scarfed. Hitting Hippo with a Toxic on the switch is nice. It also gets access to Gunk Shot. Idk if you really need it, because it only really hits Clef. And with any chip, EQ is already a clean 2HKO on Clef - if you manage to Knock Off Clef's lefties, it's a 74.2% chance to 2HKO when they are Max Def and Bold. If you ask me, the drawbacks of running Gunk outweigh the benefit of occasionally being able to kill a Clef early. But it's still an option.
Diggersby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- U-turn
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You can also put facade over toxic to beat wow/toxic users. And
could be a great partner because it can easily sweep without fast ghost (es. dragapult) and steel types: diggersby counter them
I'm not sure how you are checking pult with this set when jolly scarf hits 420 and pult hits 421, plus ur running adamant so ur def going to be outsped by pult.
Oops my bad - you're right, it doesn't check Timid Max Speed Pult. But Jolly Scarf Digger does check Specs Modest Pult, or any set that isn't running absolutely max speed. So there's that.
Anyway, you're right - the Adamant set I'm using doesn't check it so I should have at least said you need to run Jolly!
Heavy Duty Boots is a CANSER on this metagame!!! How can we accept this Item which Destroys an entire PlayStyle (STALL)???? Are we going to Ban this MONSTROSITY??
Stall is very important for Competotive Pokemon and we should not let it be killed!!! What do you want me to do. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . use KNOCK OFF on every member of my party???
Share you're thoughts please , thank you in advance
Stall is very important for Competotive Pokemon and we should not let it be killed!!! What do you want me to do. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . use KNOCK OFF on every member of my party???
Share you're thoughts please , thank you in advance
I disagree and think Heavy Duty Boots are an incredibly important item to exist in the game. Stealth Rocks is an absurdly powerful move and puts an insane amount of competitive pressure on anything weak to it. Yea, it sucks that it hurts a play style, but starting fire, bug, flying, and ice types a step behind all the other types is worse for the game over all.
Same here. To me, Stealth Rock was one of the dumbest moves to ever be implemented in Pokemon since it inherently put certain types at a disadvantage solely by its existence. Gen 4 SR was easily one of the most unbalanced and centralizing moves in Pokemon history. I wouldn’t be as bothered if they had added more Stealth types, had gone all or nothing with this concept, but as of Gen 8 that has been reserved for the effect of a single Gmax move.
As such, I find that boots have been a really healthy addition to the meta. I mean, we currently live in an OU where base Charizard is somewhat viable. Aside from being a lifeline for Rock weak mons, several defensive mons like Slowbro and Blissey (at least in UU) have been able to make great use of boots thanks to Teleport. At the same time, Boots users do have to be wary of Knock Off, so there are defensive measures in play. Also, there are many mons who don’t run Boots due to not caring about Rocks, meaning that Rocks can be used in conjunction with other hazards to rack up chip. Needing other hazards to get damage makes Stall less viable, but hard Stall has always used that strategy to some effect. Not to mention that hazard chip is also an important strategy for offensive teams to help soften walls like Chansey and Toxapex, and while those two don’t use Boots, it’s important to remember Rocks aren’t limited to one play style.
TLDR: Boots are fine
As such, I find that boots have been a really healthy addition to the meta. I mean, we currently live in an OU where base Charizard is somewhat viable. Aside from being a lifeline for Rock weak mons, several defensive mons like Slowbro and Blissey (at least in UU) have been able to make great use of boots thanks to Teleport. At the same time, Boots users do have to be wary of Knock Off, so there are defensive measures in play. Also, there are many mons who don’t run Boots due to not caring about Rocks, meaning that Rocks can be used in conjunction with other hazards to rack up chip. Needing other hazards to get damage makes Stall less viable, but hard Stall has always used that strategy to some effect. Not to mention that hazard chip is also an important strategy for offensive teams to help soften walls like Chansey and Toxapex, and while those two don’t use Boots, it’s important to remember Rocks aren’t limited to one play style.
TLDR: Boots are fine
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If anything is a "cancer" on this metagame, it's toxapex. It's been mentioned before; the whole idea of "why arent we suspecting defensive mons and only offensive mons?"
Personally, I'm just sick and tired of pex. It's incredibly splashable and can act as a bandaid for bad team building, imo. Who needs a proper check to -insert offensive mon here- when you can just toxic stall with a regen core?
Honestly, why does a mon with such high defensive stats also get amazing utility moves like scald, toxic and knock off that punish anything that tries to switch it, on top of recover and regenerator? Mons like shuckle and pyukumuku have very high defenses too, but are reigned in by their limited movepool and lackluster abilities. If it was frail on def or spdef, that might be ok, but having both defense stats being skyhigh? I feel that its too much.
What exactly about pex is "healthy" for the metagame? What purpose does it serve in the grand scheme of things? Are there mons it keeps in check, who would run rampant without it? I think it's worn out its welcome and its place in the OU metagame deserves serious reconsideration.
Just speaking for myself, pex is never a mon that I enjoy facing. It's always a huge drag trying to pin this piece of crap down long enough to KO it. And its a mon you absolutely have to prepare for, or it'll just sit there and watch you slowly die. FUN.
Personally, I'm just sick and tired of pex. It's incredibly splashable and can act as a bandaid for bad team building, imo. Who needs a proper check to -insert offensive mon here- when you can just toxic stall with a regen core?
Honestly, why does a mon with such high defensive stats also get amazing utility moves like scald, toxic and knock off that punish anything that tries to switch it, on top of recover and regenerator? Mons like shuckle and pyukumuku have very high defenses too, but are reigned in by their limited movepool and lackluster abilities. If it was frail on def or spdef, that might be ok, but having both defense stats being skyhigh? I feel that its too much.
What exactly about pex is "healthy" for the metagame? What purpose does it serve in the grand scheme of things? Are there mons it keeps in check, who would run rampant without it? I think it's worn out its welcome and its place in the OU metagame deserves serious reconsideration.
Just speaking for myself, pex is never a mon that I enjoy facing. It's always a huge drag trying to pin this piece of crap down long enough to KO it. And its a mon you absolutely have to prepare for, or it'll just sit there and watch you slowly die. FUN.
All the aforementioned types of pokemon in your post had been dealing and adapting from Gen 4 to Gen 7 in relation to Stealth Rocks. While Heavy Duty Boots ("HDB") grants increased viability to such pokemon, I think the general sentiment is that HDB is making many offensive pokemon a bit too hard to get rid of.
Why not explore an item clause i.e. limit HDB to only 1 pokemon per team instead of outright banning the same?
Among whom? In OU, the only three offensive mons that notably use Boots are Cinderace, Togekiss, and Volcarona. That’s not exactly enough to be a problem on the meta’s part rather than just on the part of these mons. If boots do make an offensive mon broken, then we should test the mon. It doesn’t really make sense to ban or restrict a non-exclusive item if only a few mons are really abusing it. Taking action against Boots should only be done if they prove a consistent factor in breaking mons and if it is proven that they would not be broken without Boots, which hasn’t been the case so far.
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To add on to what other people are saying, i'd say that banning Heavy Duty Boots is not a good idea, as only a few Pokemon become this hard to deal with thanks to their existance. Think about Dracovish and Gdarm, and potentially Urshifu in the future. One of the main reasons these are so overwhelming is because of the raw power Choice Band grants them, allowing them to bust holes in just about anything. Yet you don't see anyone asking for Choice Band to be banned or limited to a single Pokemon on your team, cause there are a lot of Pokemon who can use the item healthily.
Why are Heavy Duty Boots so different? Sure, a few Pokemon might have become much better thanks to their existance but then why can't we just take action on the Pokemon rather than the item? Or should we just start banning Choice Band cause a couple Pokemon are able to make use of an item more than others? I think that Heavy Duty Boots are a neat addition that stops Pokemon from being put at a disadvantage simply because they happen to be a fire type, or bug type, or any type weak to rock.
Why are Heavy Duty Boots so different? Sure, a few Pokemon might have become much better thanks to their existance but then why can't we just take action on the Pokemon rather than the item? Or should we just start banning Choice Band cause a couple Pokemon are able to make use of an item more than others? I think that Heavy Duty Boots are a neat addition that stops Pokemon from being put at a disadvantage simply because they happen to be a fire type, or bug type, or any type weak to rock.
Maybe if people would get back in the habit of attacking rather than relying on chip damage you wouldn't have trouble with boots. I love when my opponent sacrifices the damage output of band / specs / LO to get a SR immunity. Makes pivoting a bit less destructive.
Between Magic Guard, Regenerator, Defog, and now Boots entry hazards are the weakest they have ever been. This doesn't mean Boots are broken it just means the primary way Smogon has played Pokemon the past decade is going the way of the dinosaurs.
Between Magic Guard, Regenerator, Defog, and now Boots entry hazards are the weakest they have ever been. This doesn't mean Boots are broken it just means the primary way Smogon has played Pokemon the past decade is going the way of the dinosaurs.
I've been using Gengar in some of my builds. Suprisingly, it has proved to be much better than I expected. The only gengar set that is ever used in ou is the np+tbolt+stabs to break fatter cores while against offense it's really lacklustering.But the set that I am using is the "scarf trick np along with stabs".
Against offense it can act as a reliable means of speed control.You can even catch a dragapult off guard with scarf and KOing it.
You can even switch out on a scouting dragapult bluffing it to be non scarf.Against balance and stall it can trick its scarf to it's common switchins namely pex,bliss/chans and mandibuzz of which mandi suffers the most since it looses boots.Gengar benefits off on the tricked items while also tricking chans' eviolite to some other mon.the pink special walls are setup bait for gengar and it then proceeds to clean a weekend fat team.
Below are some replays where gengar put up some good work and even securing 6-0 in one or two while cleaning late game in the others.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1156871317-8ewoh6b31j8kffktigxo9rjqe6v4e0upw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150390210-67498nd3w524m24jq201i13p9v72syopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1155014667-q5gydsv6xa0xjo3lv2373zl4wdgtc0cpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1137980554
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1156747695
I might even pose an argument in the VR discussion to get it at least A-.
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