Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Switching Gears

Status
Not open for further replies.

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader



Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Magearna.



Magearna has been one of the strongest Pokemon in SS OU ever since it was released during DLC 1: Isle of Armor. With a versatile movepool -- including new moves like Trick, Draining Kiss, and Stored Power, superb natural bulk, and a practical typing, Magearna has found many ways to impact the SS OU metagame. Perhaps the most profound impact it has had on SS OU is with the Choice Specs variant, which has very limited counterplay overall. Choice Specs Magearna takes advantage fully of 130 base Special Attack in order to break through opposing teams. The scope of Magearna's effectiveness does not end with the Choice Specs set either as it has a versatile array of set-up variants that can also function at a high level in the metagame. This all makes it very challenging to consistently check or counter Magearna.

Some of the biggest pros of Magearna in SS OU come from its natural characteristics. The Steel-Fairy typing with 80/115/115 bulk is fantastic. This allows for it to get in repeatedly to make progress and even function as a defensive check to a number of Pokemon, which cannot be said for a vast majority of offensive threats in the metagame. Once Magearna gets in safely, it is also able to take advantage of almost unmatched special coverage and various forms of utility, ranging from Volt Switch to generate momentum to Trick, Shift Gear, Calm Mind, Iron Defense, and even Pain Split. This allows for Magearna to account for would-be counterplay with the different options it has at its disposal.

Choice Specs Magearna is the most common and effective variant. While plenty of breakers in SS OU hit hard such as Urshifu and Rillaboom, Magearna's Choice Specs boosted Fleur Cannon may stand-out even in this company. Common resists such as Excadrill, Rotom-Heat, and Cinderace all can take north of 60% and cannot switch in reliably at all, for example. Regenerator Toxapex and Amoonguss are seen as satisfactory pivots initially, but the former risks taking significant damage from Volt Switch and losing momentum whereas the latter is 2HKO'd by Flash Cannon. Even seemingly unbreakable special walls like Chansey and Blissey are a Volt Switch or two away from being put into 2HKO range of Aura Sphere or Fleur Cannon, which is being generous to them considering variants running Trick have the opportunity to limit these Pokemon for the remainder of the game.

Choice Specs Magearna has a small pool of counterplay and it is capable of circumventing some of it as described above. With this said, it is still limited to only four moves, oftentimes having to pick between Aura Sphere for Steel types and Trick for crippling specific walls. With only base 65 Speed, it is also very possible to revenge kill thanks to the handful of fast Fire and Ground types you encounter in SS OU such as Cinderace, Rotom-Heat, and Excadrill. It is also a bit prediction reliant due to Volt Switch immune Pokemon being on almost all teams. A distinguishing factor between Magearna and other breakers in the tier has to be its bulk and typing; it can take advantage of common walls like Mandibuzz, Clefable, and Slowbro because of this. However, hyper offensive teams are able to minimize the amount of times any Magearna can enter safely, leaving it incapable of finding the same breathing room it has in balanced match-ups.

Beyond Choice Specs, Magearna has stored many other tricks up its sleeve. A lot of the other noteworthy Magearna variants focus on set-up sweeping. It can viably run three set-up moves, Shift Gear, Calm Mind, and Iron Defense, which gives it effective options to pick from. On more offensive teams, a set with Shift Gear and Electro Ball can be great at sweeping and in general Shift Gear with Calm Mind or three attacks fits well on hyper offense. With support of screens, Weakness Policy can be employed to make Magearna much more dangerous. A downside of this set is that it lacks the outright breaking power of Choice Specs and the bulk or longevity of bulkier boosting sets, making it a good pick on a limited pool of teams.

On more balanced teams, there are a variety of options for Magearna to pick from as a win condition. Stored Power variants are occasionally utilized. With Calm Mind and Iron Defense, Stored Power + Draining Kiss can get out of hand quickly for unprepared teams, but Haze Toxapex shuts this down, breaking through Steel types is challenging, and Fire types can dispose of it before it gets out of hand usually. These variants can also use Grassy Seed if paired with Rillaboom to help boost Stored Power and improve the immediate defensive prowess of Magearna. On the other hand, Calm Mind variants with Substitute can be used to take advantage of Amoonguss, Toxapex, and Clefable, making use of Fleur Cannon + Thunderbolt. These variants are still limited to this coverage and incapable boosting physical defense, making Rotom-Heat, Excadrill, Jirachi, and other Fire or Steel type Pokemon potentially good checks to it. Finally, Calm Mind + Pain Split can be used and there are a number of different coverage options worth considering here, but no one variant of it is perfect, running into various roadblocks no matter how you approach it.

Magearna's set-up variants are all viable and even strong options, but they all have common checks and counters. In addition, Magearna as a whole is far from perfect. It is at its strongest when locked into a specific move with Choice Specs, thus making it prediction reliant and potentially at mercy of outplaying in order to generate consistent progress. It has the most devastating potential with the Shift Gear or Stored Power sweeping sets, but all have difficulty breaking through balanced teams without support and having the proper moves for the occasion. A lot of the time, Magearna sweeps also fail to manifest due to offensive pressure suffocating it if it requires multiple set-up turns in order to sweep.

Overall, Magearna is a great option in the metagame, but there is some counterplay to it and there are some limitations to what it can do. It can be argued that Magearna imposes restrictions on teambuilding due to how oppressive the Choice Specs set is and how versatile it is overall. Even if you prepare for it sufficiently, there is a possibility that it will continue to give you issues due to how effective the Choice Specs variant is at forcing progress and wearing out defensive cores. However, many common structures are able to minimize how often it gets in and make it rely on prediction in order to make much progress at all due to durable Fleur Cannon resists and common Volt Switch immunities. Magearna also is a good win condition with a wide array of options that leaves many teams struggling to consistently handle it. Despite all of this, there are still some checks and counters to every variant of Magearna, including every set-up variant multiple times over. Due to the points outlined above, the OU council has deemed Magearna worthy of a suspect test.


  • To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 82 with a minimum of 40 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! OverUsed (OU) ladder
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTU. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTU FINCH.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Magearna, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until August 4th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should he common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leader, TDK or Eo Ut Mortus, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm sure a lot of people when they see this are wondering why Magearna, and not Cinderace, or even both at once. I'd like to talk about this a little to clear up any potential concern or confusion. As a lot of you know, we conducted a survey with all WCoP R1 participants. The results of said survey actually had a slightly higher percent in favor of banning or testing Cinderace, rather than Magearna.

Simultaneous suspects are messy and far from ideal, bar peculiar or extreme circumstances. Attention will be split between the two (or more) Pokemon; between discussions and general time laddering, one will overshadow the other and not receive proper attention. One being removed from the tier or remaining in the tier can also impact the other. What if a lot of people vote to ban Pokemon X because Pokemon Y, its best counter, is also being tested, but then Pokemon X is banned but not Pokemon Y? These types of complications are things that should be avoided and really not impact the vote.

So, why not Cinderace? Speaking simply what I think here, not as a member of the council, I always lean towards giving everything a proper amount of time, rather than being too rash with banning things. I don't want to see us kneejerk react to something that may potentially not be that big of an issue. If something just starts to gain real traction in the community as being "busted" before the metagame gets a chance to develop around it, it will assuredly be banned. I'm not trying to act like what I think is fact or anything of the sort, I simply want to be sure we aren't acting too quickly. I've been just as guilty as plenty of others for wanting to ban things that potentially aren't issues.

Now, I'm not saying Cinderace hasn't been really good for that long. It's been great ever since Libero got released and has been on our radar for a while. However, it's definitely skyrocketed in the past two weeks how good people generally think it to be. I believe a lot of people looked at Urshifu similarly when it first got released, and now a large portion of the community don't view it anywhere close to as they did then. Again, Cinderace isn't the same, it's been around longer, it's been really good for longer, etc.

Why test Magearna, though? Well, Magearna has been more consistent and is much harder to truly prepare for. Magearna has many different sets to utilize, and Choice Specs, quite frankly, can break no matter what you have equipped to combat it. All the varying set up sets also can simply clean house unless a select counter is in place, and there are not that many to choose from. Toxapex can get beaten by CM TBolt or Shift Gear Electro Ball. Rotom-H can potentially struggle with Stored Power or Shift Gear + CM sets. Blissey and Chansey straight up lose to CM Pain Split. The list goes on. It's not easy to cover everything in one on a single team, and it puts a serious strain on what you can run.

Lastly, we are still looking at Cinderace. Right now, we'd ideally like to not run another suspect test while the Official Ladder Tournament is ongoing (it begins on August 5th!), as such, if the metagame can't develop around Cinderace and it is still seen to be the top dog and in need of immediate attention, we can apply the "Melmetal treatment" if the need is urgent. For those unaware, we quick banned Melmetal quite quickly after its release, and gave it a proper suspect test a month later. The same option is available for Cinderace, even though we decided to handle Magearna first, and did that through a suspect test. But ultimately, for now we'll just be doing Magearna, but Cinderace is very much so on our immediate radar, and will most certainly be getting its own form of attention in the next few months.

Side note: I know I said we do not want to run a suspect while OLT is going on, but I'd like to say we are NOT going to entirely cater towards official tournaments; there's more to OU than just what goes on in the tournaments subforum. However, the qualifying phase of OLT alongside laddering for suspect reqs could be incredibly tiresome and the overlap would be cruel. We wish to avoid this potential trouble for everyone who is potentially interested in both of these things. As such, it's unlikely we'd conduct a suspect test that overlaps with OLT qualifying phase, at least at this point in time.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader


Council Paragraphs go here
Magearna has been one of the best Pokemon in the SS OU metagame since the day it was released, but I believe that only the Choice Specs set rising in popularity recently that has pushed it over the top. While this is a closer decision than some may think, I believe that the versatility of Magearna is not necessarily what pushes it over the top, but rather the sheer breaking power of the Choice Specs variant. I respect that it has a plethora of viable variants, including many different ways to pose as a win condition, but I personally find most of these manageable without going too far out of your way. The real burden Magearna has on both teambuilding and balanced gameplay for me is the Choice Specs set; Fleur Cannon mandates use of one of a specific set of special walls (Chansey/Blissey) or pivots (Toxpex/Amoonguss) while Volt Switch can easily chip most of these into range or put you on the back foot, forcing lots of high risk prediction even in the early stages of games involving your Electric immunity, which is virtually forced onto teams due to the presence of Magearna. Overall, Magearna is too strong and has too small a pool of consistent counterplay in order to remain SS OU and I will personally be voting ban.


With just two moves, Specs Magearna maintains "perfect" coverage over the entire metagame; it doesn't matter that Pokemon such as Excadrill and Rotom-Heat resist its main coverage when they're getting heavily chunked anyway. Where other Volt Switch/U-turn users have to work much harder to chunk out common pivots such as Toxapex and Clefable, Magearna only has to make a single correct prediction to achieve the same impact, one where the consequences of an incorrect guess aren't generally that bad due to a lack of offensive counterplay. This is all with two moves; its other slots are effectively luxuries that can be reserved for certain matchups and positions. Magearna can throw out Fighting moves at will to nail Excadrill, Trick off its Specs to break defensive teams, or chunk a different set of Pokemon with Flash Cannon. A lot of Choice Band/Scarf users need these additional slots to threaten the gaps in its primary coverage; Magearna doesn't.

Magearna's other sets aren't individually broken, but they do exacerbate the brokenness of its primary offensive set (Zygarde effect) rather than diminish it. This is unlike last generation where the necessity of its defensive sets made its offensive sets less meta-relevant. A lot of teams couldn't afford to run the offensive Z-move sets because they needed a defensive Steel. At the beginning of the post-DLC metagame, it looked like defensive sets and Scarf were going to do the same thing, but offensive sets quickly blew them out of the water. Magearna's coverage and power is too good in this metagame, and it can still play defensive roles even without additional investment. Other sets such as Shift Gear and Calm Mind have already emerged to prey on metagame trends and increase the burden of preparation against Magearna. Due to the metagame's volatility, I won't rule out a shift changing my mind in the next two weeks, but I am currently leaning towards a ban.


Magearna has always been an absurdly good Pokémon in OU. It was always able to serve as a strong sweeper, wallbreaker or even a wall to serve as a check to itself. In SS OU, Magearna recieved a couple of new weapons to continue it's dominating presence in the metagame, with the most important ones arguably being Stored Power and Trick. Both of these moves have improved Magearna in different ways, one for cleaning sets and the other for choice based sets. Additionally, the current metagame's abscence of specific Pokémon make handling Magearna a whole different story. The lack of Pokémon such as Heatran and Victini as teambuilding options that would sponge up moves like Choice Specs Fleur Cannon is an underrated aspect that comes into play very often when we look at things in practice, and without Pokémon such as the ones listed above Magearna can opt for a variety of different sets when it's goal is to sweep. I've had a consistent change of heart on a few of the new Pokémon we got introduced to our metagame, but Magearna is the only one that has seemed clearly broken to me all of this time, and I don't see this changing as long as we don't get introduced new teambuilding options again.


As it stands in the current meta, I feel that Magearna is on the bubble of being broken for one primary reason. Magearna's primary set, Choice Specs, is capable of shredding through the entire metagame thanks to its near perfect coverage. In a metagame that is currently heavily reliant on widdling away at teams through chip via moves such as Knock Off, Volt Switch, and U-turn in order to setup wincons, Magearna is capable of making an immediate impact. With Volt Switch, Choice Specs Magearna is capable of making a dent on teams in a meta where there aren't great Volt Switch pivots. Unlike most common U-turn/Volt Switch users, Choice Specs Magearna makes an absurdly large dent due to Magearna's great 130 Base SpA coupled with Specs. Add in the fact that Magearna can use Fleur Cannon, an absurdly strong STAB move that when boosted with Choice Specs, is capable of 2HKOing nearly the entire tier. These two moves alone force many high risk predictions around Magearna whereas the Magearna user faces typically minimal drawback when using these moves due to the sheer strength and the great natural bulk of Magearna. Add to the fact that Magearna has a wide range of coverage moves such as Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, and Trick, and it emphasizes the difficulty of finding an appropriate Magearna answer. I feel that Magearna's presence forces a large amount of counterplay and is restricting in the team builder.

Of course, there is some part of me that can see support for Magearna. Similar to Urshifu, I think the couple checks to Magearna (such as Toxapex, Amoonguss, Excadrill, Blissey, etc.) would be top tier mons regardless of counterplay. In a sense, Magearna doesn't necessarily force bad mons to be used. Add that to the fact that the current meta is extremely volatile, with mons shifting in viability practically every other week, and I could see some reasonable justification for Magearna staying.

However, with that being said, I am leaning towards banning Magearna for the reasons listed in my initial paragraph.
 
Last edited:
Magearna is absurdly broken in my opinion. It puts so much pressure on teams thanks to its fantastic coverage and good stats, resulting in a lack of counterplay. The fact that Magearna is able to safely switch into common Pokemon like Rillaboom, Mandibuzz, and Zeraora also give it more opportunities to come in and massively damage something. One of the moves it contains is Volt Switch, allowing Magearna to easily switch out of its checks and pivot into another teammate. The presence of Magearna alone just puts a bunch of strain on its checks, and with the right support Magearna can become a deadly late-game cleaner. The most common set is Choice Specs, which is a big factor of Magearna being so great currently. Magearna also holds a number of different sets, such as Assault Vest, CM + Shift Gear, and simply Shift Gear. There isn't really much stopping these, either, and its moves are also pretty spammable thanks to Soul-Heart. It has also been very common in WCOP and fishes win pretty easily. Magearna is quite held back by the amount of offensive counterplay due to its mediocre Speed stat, making it far from perfect as Finchinator mentions. Volcarona, Cinderace, and Rotom-H all force it out pretty well. Magearna especially handles stall and balance teams very well, and could possibly invalidate them if given the chance. Out of the new additions it got this generation, the most notable one is Trick, which leaves Chansey/Blissey, Scizor, and other things totally useless. Magearna restricts teambuilding in a way, and I do not think it should stay OU for any longer. Ban
 
Last edited:
I think Magearna has been a generation overdue of at least a suspect. While the Z-crystals are removed (which made Magearna even more unpredictable than it already was), the new access to Stored Power, Draining Kiss and Trick make it even more unpredictable than it was last gen. If you have no good answer (Cinderace, Excadrill or a Hazer) the game is pretty much over after a CM + Shift Gear, as that set can be as big of a snowball as Dynamax was. And some Stored power sets run Iron Defense over Shift Gear to nullify physical checks as well. To me this set is the most potent of all, but that's also because I am not a huge Cinderace/Pex fan, so often I just get snowballed. Once you get set up just enough, it's game over as it outspeeds/tanks everything, and heals everything back with a single kiss. Making chip basically nonexcistent.

The specs set personally feels worse than the one I mentioned above, but getting constantly hit with a 30-60% volt switch is just too much as well concidering that is just its most spammable move. Then there's Fleur Cannon to think about, which basically 2HKOS everything, even resists.




This should be a ban, but I haven't played enough of OU (roughly 150 games since DLC with whack teams?) to make a full conclusion. I'll see if I can get the reqs, but I'm not going to grind for it. If somebody can give me a team which proves Magearna is truly busted (preferably specs), I might make a secondary conclusion.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Magearna has been one of the best Pokemon in the SS OU metagame since the day it was released, but I believe that only the Choice Specs set rising in popularity recently that has pushed it over the top. While this is a closer decision than some may think, I believe that the versatility of Magearna is not necessarily what pushes it over the top, but rather the sheer breaking power of the Choice Specs variant. I respect that it has a plethora of viable variants, including many different ways to pose as a win condition, but I personally find most of these manageable without going too far out of your way. The real burden Magearna has on both teambuilding and balanced gameplay for me is the Choice Specs set; Fleur Cannon mandates use of one of a specific set of special walls (Chansey/Blissey) or pivots (Toxpex/Amoonguss) while Volt Switch can easily chip most of these into range or put you on the back foot, forcing lots of high risk prediction even in the early stages of games involving your Electric immunity, which is virtually forced onto teams due to the presence of Magearna. Overall, Magearna is too strong and has too small a pool of consistent counterplay in order to remain SS OU and I will personally be voting ban.

also finch i luv u <3 bb marry me pls

EDIT: first post :]



Stealing the words and posts of other people is strictly forbidden. That is my argument and it will be included in the council paragraphs, please do not do this again or I will infract. Making this a public warning now so everyone can see not to do this.
 
I don't have voting status, so I won't provide a huge explanation, but if I could vote, I'd vote Ban. It simply has too few counters and has too much of a chokehold on the current meta. Whenever I see this thing in team preview, I get scared. You never know what it will run, and therefore how to counter it.
 
Magearna is absolutely absurd. A Steel-fairy, an ability that raises spattack when you faint a foe, very good bulk, really good special attack combined with a signature that is fairy overheat? Already sounds really good. Then you realize this is one of the weakest metas for a couple of gens and you realize this thing might be pushing it. Then you realize it can run a variety of sets, the strongest being choice specs due to its sheer breaking power, but don't forget about shift gear calm mind stored power draining kiss, av, among other less viable ones. Pex is like, nooooooo, you can't just weaken me with volt switch and then steal the game with specs fleur, and Mag be like haha specs go brrrr. However, Mag does have its fair share a checks that are easy to fit on teams like Pex, Bliss, or others so I personally don't have a final decision. I'm definitely leaning toward ban due to the absolute stress it puts on the team builder and its pure breaking power relative to the meta right now. I'm waiting to see other people's responses, this is an interesting suspect (even though this thing is 100% coming back after DLC 2 lmao).

Edit: Forgot to mention it can now bait in and punish Pex, Bliss, or Chans with trick. Chans suffers to most due to it losing eviolite and that's one of the reasons Bliss has made its triumphant revenge over Chans (other than Boots).
 
I haven't really been playing OU a lot, so I won't provide an opinion on the ban itself, however, I do want to bring up something for everyone to consider; an OU without Magearna (if it is banned). The Pokemon most obviously affected has to be:

:cinderace:
I don't think Cinderace should be banished to Ubers if Magearna is. One of its best qualities is its ability to revenge kill Specs Magearna since Fleur Cannon will never kill, and Magearna needs at least 80 def or HP EVs to avoid the guaranteed OHKO (it would need far more to avoid the chance of an Ohko). Both of these options can cut into its speed, which means far more Pokes can revenge kill like Magnezone and Crawdaunt.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 220-260 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 320-380 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Magearna: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(Anything with less bulk is a guaranteed OHKO)

If Magearna is gone, then Cinderace will lose one of its primary victims. And again, one of the reasons why it has surged in the past two weeks is BECAUSE of Magearna. Magearna can also be a great partner to Cinderace since it checks so much of the metagame which can mean that Cinderace can be more susceptible to things like Alakazam and Dragapult (or other things, correct me if I'm wrong).

Again, these are just things to consider during the suspect test, and nothing is concrete.
 
Last edited:
I think Magearna should be banned. As of gen 7, there was a lot of time when a suspect test was possible because the mon was that strong, top 3 alongside Heatran and Ash-Gren imo, maybe better than those 2. But right now, with few mons around, a really reduced power creep and a even more tools, Magearna is too much for the tier. While it does not that have that inmediate one turn - one kill Dracovish had, I found her even stronger than what Dracovish was. Magearna has no counter to all of it sets. Chansey and Bilssey get owned by Pain Split or Draining Kiss, it can maybe set up and then tank a hit with Shuca Berry, or just the recovery of berries/lefties...The problem with Magearna is that she's not only strong, but bulky, and has one of the best typings in the game, packing just two weaknesses, but 2 inmunities, one including inmunity to toxic spikes and toxic itself, resists rock and 9 resistances. She has base 115 on each defense alongside the same sp atk as Urshifu atk, who's far weaker on the special side, has cuadruple weakness to fairy, and a clearly worse type overall.

Magearna has all the tools she needs to be an extremely good Pokémon both setting up and being choice locked. This is something even over Darmanitan, who only had two viable sets: Scarf and Banded. So, it's even harder to manage her and it suffocates the enemy trainer more and more until she runs freely of checks and wins the game. Specs Magearna has really few switch-ins, you can really count them with one hand if she predicts well.

Magearna setting up is the definition of "win con" further than any other mon has ever been in gen 8 up until today. She has moves to boost attack, defense, speed, special attack and special defense, she has stored power, recovery on draining kiss and pain split, and she has clearly one of the best movepool of the game, so she has the coverage for every single mon she wants to target.

In conclusion I think a ban is mandatory.
 
Ah yes, Magearna. You love using her and you hate facing her. I'll just keep this plain and simple, ban mag due to her wide versatility, ability to break through any check and counter, and just sheer destructiveness created by her choice specs set. I will say this though, I feel the reason mons like volcarona, cinderace, and toxapex are so common is because theyre arguably the best checks to mag we've got, and even then they can be shut down. Cinderace has the ability to OHKO and revenge it, leading to widespread usage of cinderace in the tier to deal with magerana. Once magearna goes, I do believe there is a chance that cinderace will not be as dominant as it is right now as its needed less to check magearna. Same goes for toxapex, as it's able to block set up mag with Haze. Volcarona is another mon that can threaten mag with it's STAB fire. All in all, i believe that after mag is banned, the meta will adjust and there is a chance that cinderace, pex, or volc wont be as good as they are now due to their ability to check mag so well. Prolly wont gets reqs cause im trash, but if i did id vote easy ban
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator

Magearna

So, Magearna. I absolutely love this Pokemon and its easily my favourite Pokemon to use in this meta. Unfortunately, I also believe it's broken in the tier in its current state and I'll be explaining why I feel this, I feel this really comes down to how absurd the Choice Specs set is and I will be linking that set to all of my points because its really the set that pushes it over the edge.

So Choice Specs Magearna is unbelievably absurd, and as it stands right now, it has pretty much no counters, Fleur Cannon alone 2HKOs almost everything in the tier, even resists such as Cinderace and Excadrill can only switch in once, and would be answers such as Chansey, Amoonguss and Blissey can simply be crippled by Trick or just used as momentum for Magearna because of Volt Switch, those are definitely solid checks to Specs Mag but the lack of consistent counterplay to this Pokemon is simply insane, counterplay to this Pokemon is incredibly limited, and those Pokemon I listed aren't good counterplay, but they are good switch ins, but they are not good or consistent enough counterplay to keep Specs Magearna in check, as a result, counterplay to Magearna really comes down to offensive Pokemon that can force it out such as Cinderace and Volcarona, in the latter's case it can take advantage of that can set up, however they have the same problem in that they need to come in safely, that usually means sacking a Pokemon in order to bring it in, in which the Magearna can simply switch out into a check, or they are brought in aggressively, which obviously cannot switch into it whatsoever and simply go into check to those Pokemon. Magearna's lack of counterplay options outside of a few I've mentioned proves its impact on the metagame.

Then we have Magearna's versatility, now while all of its other sets are much more manageable than Choice Specs, I want to say that with how hard it is to deal with it, prepping for Choice Specs can make other sets much harder to handle. Substitute + Calm Mind is definitely the biggest example of this as you can give it any EV spread you really desire and its ability to deal with checks to Choice Specs such as Chansey, Blissey and Amoonguss make prepping for Magearna as a whole all the more tricky. Now I don't think versatility in general is a reason why something should be banned and if it is, its usually should be if a Pokemon's versatility makes it far too difficult to account for on teambuilding, like Genesect for example, Magearna I feel doesn't have this issue as its checks such as Cinderace and Blissey are checks to its other sets, but I feel when you add on the potency of the Specs set and the fact that there are many more sets that Magearna has makes prepping for Magearna as a whole a big pain in my opinion.

Overall, Magearna at this point in time feels far too much for the metagame due to its lack of consistent counterplay and the negative impact it has on both teambuilding and in practice and as a result should be banned.
 

ausma

what it be what it do
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris an Artistis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
OU Forum Leader
:ss/magearna:

Magearna is a really weird case, especially because of how much it's changed in the transition from Gen 7 to Gen 8. On one hand, the sentiment of suspecting Magearna first is something I disagree with, since I feel Pokemon like Urshifu--which can singlehandedly shut down Balance and more defensive teams for enabling offense--and Cinderace--which has no actual counters and is the best offensive pivot in the tier that completely controls the momentum of a game--are more immediate issues due to what kinds of trends they promote in the tier, and how they suffocate teambuilding. Though, on the other, Magearna is completely ridiculous and is definitely problematic, so I'm definitely for a suspect anyway.

Magearna, of the Pokemon mentioned, is one of the most independently powerful Pokemon in the tier that requires little to no actual team support to completely spearhead games. With great defensive stats, one of the best defensive typings in the game, and a myriad of options, it has cemented itself as the best Pokemon in the tier. Not only is it incredibly hard to scout for due to the overall efficiency of all of its sets, but it is extremely punishing to players who scout it incorrectly and let it either severely dent them, have a wall crippled with Trick, or let it get free set-up. All of its sets are extremely devastating to every kind of archetype in the tier.

I'll break down each of the sets I've seen personally to help give a scope to my biggest concern with it.

1: Choice Specs

This one I've been experimenting a lot with lately, and while I don't think it's its best set unlike most people, I think it by itself is immensely difficult to actually check, and alone could be banworthy. Specs Fleur Cannon hits everything--even resists--for incredible damage. Due to Magearna's amazing natural power, Soul Heart, and there being no Fairy immunity, it's a very low cost move to spam. On top of that, even on walls that normally can switch in rather comfortably like Chansey and the newly found Blissey, they have to risk losing their item and being stricken with a crippling Choice lock. Even worse is that Magearna's Volt Switches still sting like a bitch as well, and greatly dent Toxapex--which normally checks its set-up variants. The last moveslot is usually not too needed, but Aura Sphere is preferable to me to smash Steels (primarily Magnezone and Excadrill) that could switch in on a Fleur Cannon and revenge it. The biggest problem in my opinion is not its spammable power, but actually Trick, which completely invalidates what would otherwise be pretty solid checks to its brute strength, since literally nothing else wants to switch in on it. Even just scouting for Trick is super risky for the foe, and usually pretty free for the Magearna player since you're not offsetting that much power.

2: Double Dance

Calm Mind is a constant, but the 2nd option is typically a toss up of Iron Defense and Shift Gear. While Shift Gear makes for a menacing, immediate powerhouse that can gather Stored Power boosts even faster, Iron Defense completely flips the tables and weaponizes Magearna's great defensive potential, turning potential Scarf revenge killers (or physical breakers in general) into set-up fodder. Despite how great Specs is at breaking and crippling walls, I've found Iron Defense + Calm Mind + 2 attacks beyond more obscene, simply because it's so easy to set up on a foe without a Toxapex, and just win the moment you get in on something that can't really do anything to you, which are a dime a dozen. To add insult to injury, you can't poison Magearna, only Paralyze or Burn it. Unlike Specs, though, the "checks" to this set are a bit different: Toxapex and Rotom-Heat are your only real immediate answers, but even those completely lose out on the matchup if they don't get in quickly. This set is disgusting and forces such specific answers, which fold completely to its Specs variant.

3: Choice Scarf

This one is much more uncommon, but it gets just enough Speed to target and blow away faster, more vulnerable Pokemon that might want to try and check its other sets, due to them lacking any immediate Speed control, like Cinderace or Urshifu. This set also benefits greatly from Volt Switch and Trick in a similar kin to Choice Specs, but its Fleur Cannons are less spammable due to the loss of power. Though, even with this set not being nearly as good as the above two, it can, once more, change what actually checks it.

4: Assault Vest

It's not anywhere near as good as it was back in Gen 7, but it's still a pretty strong pivot and has a punch to its moves that make it still pretty good. We already know what's up with it, but compared to what else it has, it pales in comparison. Its checks, also, once more, change pretty drastically.

5: Pain Split

This set is very niche, but dunks on fat walls like Blissey and Chansey that normally check it, while giving Magearna fearsome longevity. I'm admittedly very unexperienced with it, but from what I've used of it, I've usually run Pain Split + Thunder Wave + Fleur Cannon + Volt Switch, which performs as a surprisingly ok offensive support Pokemon and indirect speed control with its great defensive typing as well.

--

So, let me get to the point. We already know what's up with these sets, so what's the point of telling you guys what you already know? The biggest reason I bring all this up is because it illustrates Magearna's obscene versatility and the effectiveness to every one of its sets. Due to how the roles of each of these sets hugely differ from one to the other, its checks change startlingly, and scouting for it is very hard due to how potent each of these variants are. It is a wallbreaker in one set, speed control in another, a utility attacker in one, a pivot in one, and a win-con in two others. All of these variants have different ways of being handled, to the point where prepping for every Magearna set and scouting for which one your foe is using is almost impossible to do unless you want to lose a huge playing piece, or dedicate your team toward checking it--the latter of which, is blatantly absurd and extremely unhealthy. If you're scouting for Double Dance, for example, switching in your Toxapex can spell the end of your Toxapex's utility due to a crippling Trick, or force it to take extreme Volt Switch damage. Or, if you're scouting for an AV variant and switch in your Cinderace, it can use Iron Defense on your switch, and begin to pave its way to cleanly 6-0ing you.

While I find Urshifu and Cinderace to be bigger problems in teambuilding and trendsetting, Magearna alone has a severe impact on teambuilding, but more prominently, playing itself. Its set versatility is beyond healthy for players to play and build against due to how blatantly powerful each one is, and how difficult it is to safely scout for them without taking some kind of losing punishment; as such, Magearna is very banworthy.
 
Last edited:
I don't have voting reqs yet, but I wanted to get my thoughts out.

Let me be as civil as possible when I say this.

MAGEARNA CAN KISS MY ASS.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's go into why I think Magearna is broken. In the most succinct possible way, Magearna is extremely versatile and extremely powerful. Its sky-high defenses and amazing defensive typing; including a Toxic immunity, a Sandstorm immunity, a Dragon immunity, and nine resistances; mean the only thing that I've found to consistently deal with it is a Banded Watershifu using Surging Strikes in rain. Obviously, if I played poorly or they saved their Magearna until rain is down or Urshi is dead, Magearna can still steamroll my team.

However, it's not only a defensive monster, otherwise we wouldn't be having a suspect. The major reason I find Magearna to be so broken is its offenses. 130 Special Attack is always scary unless your name is Chansey, and 95 Attack for Iron Heads on Chansey still isn't bad. Steel/Fairy is also a great offensive typing, hitting much of the meta at least neutrally. Magearna also has a decent coverage movepool to draw from, with stuff like BoltBeam, Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, Energy Ball, and Shadow Ball. Its Soul-Heart ability also allows it to snowball if it lands enough powerful attacks. A Specs set is mortifying against a weakened team, but to be honest, I don't think that's its best set. That honor goes to the terrifying Double Dance set. Magearna's low speed could easily be seen as its Achilles heel, as it is outsped by most of the meta. However, a Shift Gear remedies this, and Magearna's aforementioned great defensive attributes may even allow it to get two on a good read. Calm Mind and Soul-Heart, as mentioned above, allow it to easily snowball and completely destroy a team, ripping through even resists after a few boosts. Both of these sets are excellent, so you have no idea which one it is until it clicks a move, and if you guess wrong, good luck. There are likely even sets I haven't encountered enough to fear, but I don't know until it clicks a move.

There is nothing currently in the SS OU meta that, when I see it in team preview, provokes as much fear as Magearna. Fantastic defenses and nearly peerless offenses make it a primed offensive and defensive monster. I want this thing gone from OU.
 
I will most likely not reach voting status in this test, but would like to share my thoughts.

I think magearna's offensive power, while impressive, is not banworthy. 130 special attack is impressive but does not put magearna above the other top breakers in the tier. While fleur cannon specifically is exceptionally powerful, to reach that staggering power it must be specs boosted, and specs lock is extremely punishing with a move that sharply drops the user's relevant offensive stat. In addition, magearna's speed, a key stat for offensive pokemon, is decidedly unimpressive. Even after a boost, magearna can be outrun by fast scarfers, and without one is outsped by almost every offensive mon. It was pointed out in the initial post that the defensive counters and pivots against magearna are very specific; the chansey line and the regenerator poison types. This complaint is largely meaningless, however, as those defensive pivots are extremely popular and the best choices for their rolls in the tier. It's true that non-chansey special walls can't hold out against magearna, but practically every team with a special wall is using chansey for that purpose.

Magearna's boosting capacities are again near the top of the tier, but not significantly better than the other top boosters. Magearna needs at least two boosts to be a sweeper (obviously it can do better in the lategame when a team is weakened, but that roll has many strong candidates), as its speed is too low to sweep anything and its special attack, while excellent, doesn't reach the level of anything boosted. If you let a setup mon boost TWICE, you have been outplayed and the loss is fair (in addition, the single boost of calm mind is often not enough to truly sweep even then).

A more convincing grounds on which magearna could be called imbalanced is its natural bulk. Even uninvested, magearna's natural defenses are enough to tank a few powerful hits, including non-stab super effective hits. Magearna also has an excellent defensive typing, resisting almost everything. That said, the omnipresent cinderace, excadrill, and vulcarona all outspeed magearna to hit it for devastating damage. These mons are all strong and will continue to be popular without magearna; while they check it, it is not the reason they are used.

Finally, the complaint of magearnas versatility. It is true that magearna can alter its set to beat its standard counters, such as carrying trick or pain split to break chansey and blissey or changing its coverage to hit other pivots hard. That said, magearna's offensive checks, which are more common and important, are very difficult to build against. Nothing magearna does will allow it to outspeed excadrill, cinderace, or vulcarona, or to consistently weather their attacks. In addition, any of the adjustments made to magearna's set to answer its normal counters weakens it against most other things.

Magearna is definitely one of the strongest pokemon in the OU tier, and it has potential both as a setup sweeper and as a simple offensive cannon. That said, I think the contribution of a slow but durable special attacker adds depth to the format, and that the popularity of specific pokemon that counter magearna (both before and after its introduction) prevent it from being an overpowered or overcentralizing element of the format. I believe magearna should not be banned.
 
Just managed to get the suspect reqs, here are what I have to say:

Magearna's unpredictability made it tough to deal with. With specs it became a coin flip of sorts of going between my poison and my electric immunity, and while I often managed to get the prediction correct (or the downside of getting it incorrect wasn't bad) those kind of mind games feel unhealthy for the metagame. Grabbing momentum on mons like Toxapex also happened to damage them heavily enough to get a mon like Cinderace in to claim one. I bring up Cinderace in particular because it and Mag pair really well together, Mag can threaten the few mons Cinderace can't break through easily (Slowbro, Hippowdon, Mandi) and Cinderace in turn pressures the sort of steels that would want to come in on Magearna, only to take a Volt Switch and suddenly be in a situation where they have to make a big prediction to avoid saccing a mon.

Another major factor in Magearna's unpredictibility is it's setup movepool, this has already been explained more in depth but let's just say that I agree. Part of why specs works so well is that you can't risk going into a mon that won't be able to do much damage to it, so you're forced to go into your Fire/Ground/Pex with Haze because if the Magearna starts setting up with the right set in front of a mon that can't stop it from setting up a second time then it will often be near impossible to stop, barring some sort of shenanigans like hax or weird sets.

Magearna also has impressive utility. It's typing often lets it come in on a substantial part of the metagame to start wreaking havoc on the opposing team, and the typing is also amazing offensively, letting it threaten most mons that aren't Fire/Steel/Poison with it's STABs (and it can Volt Switch on most of them as well). Assault Vest is a great set, letting it come in on special threats like offensive Clefable, Magnezone, Hydreigon, and opposing Magearna while gaining momentum with Volt Switch.

Magearna is offensively versatile and one of the biggest threats in the metagame, if not the biggest. It makes the course of the game a bunch of 50/50s which often can benefit the user even if the Magearna user gets the prediction wrong. I feel this mon is unhealthy, and should be banned from the SWSH OU metagame.
 
Magearna is a great pokemon, maybe the best pokemon in OU but should it be banned ? I am not sure.

I did not have problems with the specs set but maybe it is because I play most of the time HO teams. This set is amazing but I would not say broken. I admit that fleur cannon is overpowered and 2HKO most of the meta but in fact it is not a real 2HKO because of the SPA drop. So bring a mon that resists to it and heal back (regenerator mons work too). Also, like all other choice lock item, you become a setup fodder.

Yeah trick is an issue too but in this generation there are no mega and Z move so that move has become very powerful in general.

Choice specs it is a gamble but is it not the case ? I think risks should be rewarded. But today the meta is so fat that we just take a check for the best mons and do not anticipate.

In my opinion the meta is way too passive so I am not sure that ban an offensive mon is a great solution. The main issue with ban Magearna, in my opinion, is Urshifu. If Magearna is banned, every team will play Clefable because of Urshifu. So what next ? Ban Urshifu ? Then Cinderace ? The meta will get more and more passive.

I think Magearna should not be banned.
 
Ever since my return to this forum, I've mainly been focused on Doubles and VGC but still keeping an eye on OU to see how the meta there goes. But even with My little experience in OU, I could see this coming from a mile away the SECOND Magearna was confirmed to return. Not only did it get new tools in Stored Power and STAB Draining Kiss, but most of the pokemon that previously threatened Magearna such as Garchomp, Landrous-T and Heatran are just... not in the game (at least for the time being). I don't have enough experience in OU to really say whether or not Magearna should/shouldn't be banned, but I find it very difficult to see an argument for Magearna staying.
 
Magearna is a great pokemon, maybe the best pokemon in OU but should it be banned ? I am not sure.

I did not have problems with the specs set but maybe it is because I play most of the time HO teams. This set is amazing but I would not say broken. I admit that fleur cannon is overpowered and 2HKO most of the meta but in fact it is not a real 2HKO because of the SPA drop. So bring a mon that resists to it and heal back (regenerator mons work too). Also, like all other choice lock item, you become a setup fodder.

Yeah trick is an issue too but in this generation there are no mega and Z move so that move has become very powerful in general.

Choice specs it is a gamble but is it not the case ? I think risks should be rewarded. But today the meta is so fat that we just take a check for the best mons and do not anticipate.

In my opinion the meta is way too passive so I am not sure that ban an offensive mon is a great solution. The main issue with ban Magearna, in my opinion, is Urshifu. If Magearna is banned, every team will play Clefable because of Urshifu. So what next ? Ban Urshifu ? Then Cinderace ? The meta will get more and more passive.

I think Magearna should not be banned.
Alright so you are aware that Magearna got a bunch of new toys that pushed an already borderline busted mon just completely over the edge? But first lets talk about specs. Even with the Spa drop, specs fleur can easily 2hko mons even after the drop, even mons like max HP Corviknight is a roll after rocks assuming it switched in at full. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 298-351 (74.5 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

But as we know, Trick made this set even better, with no megastones and z-crystal, there isn't a way to defend against trick which makes it very hard to deal with. Not only is specs hard to switch into since mage has great coverage and not much can deal with volt switch + fleur barring Ferro/Zone/Amoong, defensive mons like Ferro and Amoong can just get tricked and be useless for the remainder of the game, while Mage still hits hard without specs. No regen mons actually deal with specs Mage, Slowbro + Pex take 70%+ from volt switch, Tang drops to fleur and Amoong is 2hko by flash cannon. Due to Cinderace and Darkfu running about, they cannot run Spd sets.

But for me, the breaking point was definitely Draining Kiss + Stored Power. I don't think there's much that needs to be said about this. Magearna was a mon that could naturally gain a lot of boosts very easily and Stored Power just removed any chance to win the game after doing so. Between CM, SG and ID(Iron Defense), Magearna can boost whatever stats it wants and increase Stored Power by +40/60 in a single turn. While the Combo is usually SG + CM, ID + CM works against slower teams or to tank physical mons that would usually force it out. Draining Kiss made this set even more Absurd because it gave Magearna while not a reliable form of recovery, one that is good enough to enable it to heal huge amounts of HP and continue to set up. For example, at +3, Draining Kiss heals more damage then Chansey/Blissey spamming Seismic Toss, so they can't even deal with that set 1v1 unless they run Thunder Wave and get very lucky.

I feel Magearna has very limited counterplay with that set. Yes are some pokemon that can deal with it like Excadrill or Volcarona, but I still think its a broken mon. even Haze Pex (which is the only common Haze user atm) doesn't win unless you play perfectly and aren't statused and more defensive teams like Stall just have few options that aren't niche like Shedinja which admittedly is a hard counter, but in the meta of RH/Darkfu/Cinderace/Pult and knock off spam is very difficult to fit on a team.

You say that because Magearna is an offensive mon, then it shouldn't be banned because the meta will turn even more passive, but, we should not keep a broken mon in a metagame that we know is busted and can sweep teams with no counterplay when it gets going. Clefable has constantly been at the top of the usage stats since SWSH started, due to how good wish + teleport was at that time and it still remains an amazing mon. If the meta advances in an unhealthy way after banning threats, then those culprits can just be suspected.

TLDR; Mage is a broken, unhealthy mon that can sweep entire teams, able to boost whatever stat it wants and snowball further with Soul-Heart, amazing typing and stats to make setting up even easier and a dangerous immediately threatening specs set in both power and in its capability to cripple anything it likes with Trick. Easily one of the big 3 busted mons and will be voting Ban if I go for reqs
 
If Magearna is banned, every team will play Clefable because of Urshifu. So what next ? Ban Urshifu ? Then Cinderace ? The meta will get more and more passive.
Yes, if Urshifu and Cinderace end up becoming problems, they'll get banned too. That's how this works. As for the meta becoming too passive:
ban complainers meme.png

It's a bit outdated (pre-DLC), but the sentiment is still applicable.
 
If Magearna were to get banned, it would also free up some defensive necessities on builds, allowing checking Urshifu to become easier to do. An example is Toxapex can more freely run PDef if Magearna isn't around, AV Tangrowth is practically pointless, another Pokemon that takes advantage of Fairy-types that pressure Urshifu is gone. Magearna getting banned really doesn't make Urshifu more powerful, as Magearna is far from being a remotely decent check to it. But regardless;

Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
let's chill on worrying about how something else may be potentially broken afterwards. If you're concerned about something being broken after the test, that's fine and something we can look into then, but it's not a reason to not ban Magearna here.
 
Alright so you are aware that Magearna got a bunch of new toys that pushed an already borderline busted mon just completely over the edge? But first lets talk about specs. Even with the Spa drop, specs fleur can easily 2hko mons even after the drop, even mons like max HP Corviknight is a roll after rocks assuming it switched in at full. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 298-351 (74.5 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

But as we know, Trick made this set even better, with no megastones and z-crystal, there isn't a way to defend against trick which makes it very hard to deal with. Not only is specs hard to switch into since mage has great coverage and not much can deal with volt switch + fleur barring Ferro/Zone/Amoong, defensive mons like Ferro and Amoong can just get tricked and be useless for the remainder of the game, while Mage still hits hard without specs. No regen mons actually deal with specs Mage, Slowbro + Pex take 70%+ from volt switch, Tang drops to fleur and Amoong is 2hko by flash cannon. Due to Cinderace and Darkfu running about, they cannot run Spd sets.

But for me, the breaking point was definitely Draining Kiss + Stored Power. I don't think there's much that needs to be said about this. Magearna was a mon that could naturally gain a lot of boosts very easily and Stored Power just removed any chance to win the game after doing so. Between CM, SG and ID(Iron Defense), Magearna can boost whatever stats it wants and increase Stored Power by +40/60 in a single turn. While the Combo is usually SG + CM, ID + CM works against slower teams or to tank physical mons that would usually force it out. Draining Kiss made this set even more Absurd because it gave Magearna while not a reliable form of recovery, one that is good enough to enable it to heal huge amounts of HP and continue to set up. For example, at +3, Draining Kiss heals more damage then Chansey/Blissey spamming Seismic Toss, so they can't even deal with that set 1v1 unless they run Thunder Wave and get very lucky.

I feel Magearna has very limited counterplay with that set. Yes are some pokemon that can deal with it like Excadrill or Volcarona, but I still think its a broken mon. even Haze Pex (which is the only common Haze user atm) doesn't win unless you play perfectly and aren't statused and more defensive teams like Stall just have few options that aren't niche like Shedinja which admittedly is a hard counter, but in the meta of RH/Darkfu/Cinderace/Pult and knock off spam is very difficult to fit on a team.

You say that because Magearna is an offensive mon, then it shouldn't be banned because the meta will turn even more passive, but, we should not keep a broken mon in a metagame that we know is busted and can sweep teams with no counterplay when it gets going. Clefable has constantly been at the top of the usage stats since SWSH started, due to how good wish + teleport was at that time and it still remains an amazing mon. If the meta advances in an unhealthy way after banning threats, then those culprits can just be suspected.

TLDR; Mage is a broken, unhealthy mon that can sweep entire teams, able to boost whatever stat it wants and snowball further with Soul-Heart, amazing typing and stats to make setting up even easier and a dangerous immediately threatening specs set in both power and in its capability to cripple anything it likes with Trick. Easily one of the big 3 busted mons and will be voting Ban if I go for reqs
Yeah I agree that stored power is very powerful on him, don't know why they give him that move, but not unstoppable. After 1 boost, Toxapex can easily live a stored power and haze the boost. Amoonguss also live a stored power with 1 boost (CM or SG) and can spore him. Cinderace can also resist 1 hit and kills him. Even after 1 boost, Volcarona still wins in 1v1. Of course if you let him boost 2 or 3 times without doing nothing to stop him, yeah it is pretty over but I think it is a missplay of your part and maybe you deserve to lose. Quagsire unaware in stall team ?

I think Chansey or Blissey are still good answers to that set because like you said you need to go to + 3 in SPA to recover enough health. At least they can seriously weaken him so you can revenge kill him after.

Maybe Cinderace scarf ? It is rare because everybody relies a lot on boots (well I also do it) but it could also work. After 1 SG Magearna can still be outspeed (Excadrill sand rush for example, rain and sun sweepers maybe ?).

So my point is yeah Magearna double dance is really threatening but there are answers. After 1 boost Magearna can be stopped. I am not saying Magearna is not a beast, I think he is but I am not quite sure he deserves to be banned. Sorry for my poor english, I try my best, I really do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top