Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Switching Gears

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This is my first post to a thread~
Magearna can just Volt out. You see, the problem with Mag is that there isn't a viable counter to every set at once. You switch in Pex only to get hit with Volt. Chansey and Blissey can get Tricked. Drill and Ace get blown back by Specs. Weakness Policy is just funny. Overall, its coverage is great, and it has so many viable sets, generally you have to win mind games in order to beat Mag. Sure, every set has its checks, but you can't safely switch in them in fear of being momentum fodder or getting hit by its coverage. For these reasons, I think Magearna is unhealthy and should be banned.
If it is scarf or specs, no it can't volt out. He has to choose volt switch if it doesn't not want to be traped and so I think it is easier to block it with an electric immunity.

Don't most corvi use u-turn?

Anyway, when you have to run a pokemon SPECIFICALLY to try counter a major threat (see previous posts about vish and bunker toxpex/gastrodon/seismatoad), it leads into a metagame where you specifically need to counter the threat, leading to a game of cat and mouse. And then, all mag needs to do is adapt its set to invalidate new checks.
Magnezone, even in gen 7, was used to trap steel pokemon, I have just added another mon to the list. So it's not for just 1 pokemon, like I said you can also trap Ferrothorn, Corviknight, other Magnezone choice locked.

Yes Corviknight can use it but not necessarily. Anyway you can catch it on a u-turn/volt/teleport and hit it with thunderbolt before it voltout (if not holding shed shell of course).
 
Magnezone can be used to trap Magearna specs after a fleur cannon.

I think this set can (in theory) work :

Magnezone @ Leftovers / Chople berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Iron Defense
- Body Press

It lives 4 fleur cannon in a row (if you are full life) from a Magearna, even without a spa drop.

Beside Magearna, it can also win against Ferrothorn even thought you have to pay attention to a predicted body press (you can play chople berry to switch safely on it) and trap the Corviknight not holding shed shell. Speed ev are there for outspeed Corviknight.

Just an idea I had today.
There are alot of problems with this Magnezone set in particular.

1: Zone can only really check Mag if it has killed something meaning that you have to lose a mon in order to check Mag with any Zone set really. Great, you removed Mag but you still lost an important wall/breaker.

2: This set is still 2HKOd by Aura Sphere and OHKOd by Focus Miss

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Magnezone: 350-412 (101.7 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Magnezone: 234-276 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes this set forces Mag to Volt Switch making it easier to play around with Volt Switch immunities, but what Volt Switch immunity in the current meta isn’t 2HKOd or even OHKOd by Aura or Focus Miss. Not to mention Mag can still Trick and Volt Switch out anyways.

3: This set can’t even beat Ferro consistently. Zone can’t swap into it safely cause it’ll just get Knock’d, hit with a meaty Body Press, or Leech Seed on it. If you try boosting with Iron Defensive Ferro is just gonna keep wearing it down and you also take chip if you Body Press it. Also trapping Ferro isn’t needed these days. Ferro can be worn down quickly especially if it loses lefties and burnt by something like Pex, and being unable to Leech Seed Clef and bulky grasses for recovery. Not to mention it is still threatened by top offensive threats like Ace, Urshifu, Fire Blast Pult, and Heattom.

4: If someone wanted a reliable defensive steel type, they’d go with SpD Drill for rocks/spin/volt switch immunity, or Ferro for setting up hazards and Knocking items off, or Corv for Defog and slow U-Turns. What do they have that this set doesn’t, utility. It’s one of the reasons why Bro and Pex are used over Gastrodon, and one of the reasosns why Clef is just so good. The only utility this Zone has is Magnet Pull which is highly mu dependent, and if I wanted to use Magnet Pull at its fullest, Specs Zone is the way to go. This set doesn’t offer rocks, slow voltturns, hazard removal, Knock Off, status absorber, nothing notable. You use up a defensive steel type that offers little to no defensive utility just to have a Mag check that has to rely on it not having fighting coverage which isn’t uncommon. And if we have to bring up stuff like SpD Zone as a check to Specs Mag, then Mag is a serious problem in the metagame.
 
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"but the lower tiers won't be able to use x or do x" i
There is no problem with banning full pokemon. Banning magearna from OU does not affect the lower tiers in any way. The problem arises when you ban something other than a pokemon. Think banning only speed boost blaziken or Libero Cinderace. Essentially, any specific item, ability, etc., when banned from OU, becomes something like a new rule that OU and all the lower tiers would have to follow. If we ban speed boost/libero, we are stealing mons with those abilities form the tower tiers. If we ban Libero, then we are stealing Libero Raboot from PU. If we ban speed boost, we are stealing sharpedo from (currently) UU.

I understand your argument with this line. We all agree it would be totally amazing to play Blaze Blaziken in RU, or zen mode darmanitan in OU, or Volt Absorb Dracozolt in UU. But think about the precedent this sets? Wouldn't it be nice to use:

Inner focus Bisharp -> lower tiers
Pressure Bisharp -> lower tiers
Inner focus Alakazam -> lower tiers
Synchronise Alakazam -> lower tiers
Effect Spore Amoongus -> lower tiers
Cute Charm Clefable -> lower tiers
Anticipation Ferrothorn -> lower tiers
Blaze Cinderace -> lower tiers
Limber Hawlucha -> lower tiers
Mold Breaker Hawlucha -> Lower tiers
Sand Force Hippowdon -> Lower tiers
Sand force excadrill -> lower tiers
Unaware Clefable -> lower tiers
Clear Body Dragapult -> lower tiers
Damp Kingdra -> lower tiers
Sturdy Magnezone -> lower tiers
Weak Armor Mandibuzz -> lower tiers
Big Pecks Mandibuzz -> lower tiers
Rain dish Pelipper -> lower tiers
Keen Eye Pelipper -> lower tiers
Overgrow Rillaboom -> lower tiers
Oblivious Slowbro -> lower tiers
Own Tempo Slowbro -> lower tiers
Chlorophyll Tangrowth -> lower tiers
Leaf Guard Tangrowth -> lower tiers
Hustle Togekiss -> lower tiers
Super Luck Togekiss -> lower tiers
Merciless Toxapex -> lower tiers
Limber Toxapex -> lower tiers
Zen Mode Garmanitan -> OU and below
Sap Sipper Azumarill -> Lower tiers
Thick Fat Azumarill -> lower tiers
Cheek Pouch Diggersby -> lower tiers
Pickup Diggersby -> lower tiers
SM OU examples:
Hyper Cutter Gliscor -> lower tiers
Sand Veil Gliscor -> lower tiers
Torrent Greninja -> lower tiers
Flame Body Heatran -> lower tiers
Overgrow Serperior -> lower tiers
Weak Armor Skarmory -> lower tiers
Telepathy Tapu Bulu -> lower tiers
Telepathy Tapu Fini -> lower tiers
telepathy Tapu Koko -> lower tiers
telepathy Tapu Lele -> lower tiers
Unnerve Tyranitar -> lower tiers

That was long, and maybe a bit over the top, but do you get my point? If we set this precedent, what's stopping us from unbanning/banning all the other pokemon? Is there any justification to have Blaze Blaziken in OU but not Zen Mode Garmanitan? After a point it stops becoming tiers and starts becoming based on abilities. There will be so many rules in each tier about which abilities are banned and on which mons. Even the decision to ban dynamax, which was clearly a broken and unhealthy mechanic, was made with hesitation and caution, because it would add a new rule to the list of OU rules.

There is even more to this slippery slope. Is regular Groudon allowed in OU if all of it's IV's are 0, it has no STAB, and holds no item? Anyone can see it degrade from here. The smart thing to do is to avoid all of it, so we don't even come close to sliding down the slippery slope.

Also, so I can stay on topic, Magearna is very overbearing for the tier. It's not that specs Magearna is necessarily overbearing to your specific team, but it limits teambuilding and variety of pokemon in the tier.
 
There is no problem with banning full pokemon. Banning magearna from OU does not affect the lower tiers in any way. The problem arises when you ban something other than a pokemon. Think banning only speed boost blaziken or Libero Cinderace. Essentially, any specific item, ability, etc., when banned from OU, becomes something like a new rule that OU and all the lower tiers would have to follow. If we ban speed boost/libero, we are stealing mons with those abilities form the tower tiers. If we ban Libero, then we are stealing Libero Raboot from PU. If we ban speed boost, we are stealing sharpedo from (currently) UU.

I understand your argument with this line. We all agree it would be totally amazing to play Blaze Blaziken in RU, or zen mode darmanitan in OU, or Volt Absorb Dracozolt in UU. But think about the precedent this sets? Wouldn't it be nice to use:

Inner focus Bisharp -> lower tiers
Pressure Bisharp -> lower tiers
Inner focus Alakazam -> lower tiers
Synchronise Alakazam -> lower tiers
Effect Spore Amoongus -> lower tiers
Cute Charm Clefable -> lower tiers
Anticipation Ferrothorn -> lower tiers
Blaze Cinderace -> lower tiers
Limber Hawlucha -> lower tiers
Mold Breaker Hawlucha -> Lower tiers
Sand Force Hippowdon -> Lower tiers
Sand force excadrill -> lower tiers
Unaware Clefable -> lower tiers
Clear Body Dragapult -> lower tiers
Damp Kingdra -> lower tiers
Sturdy Magnezone -> lower tiers
Weak Armor Mandibuzz -> lower tiers
Big Pecks Mandibuzz -> lower tiers
Rain dish Pelipper -> lower tiers
Keen Eye Pelipper -> lower tiers
Overgrow Rillaboom -> lower tiers
Oblivious Slowbro -> lower tiers
Own Tempo Slowbro -> lower tiers
Chlorophyll Tangrowth -> lower tiers
Leaf Guard Tangrowth -> lower tiers
Hustle Togekiss -> lower tiers
Super Luck Togekiss -> lower tiers
Merciless Toxapex -> lower tiers
Limber Toxapex -> lower tiers
Zen Mode Garmanitan -> OU and below
Sap Sipper Azumarill -> Lower tiers
Thick Fat Azumarill -> lower tiers
Cheek Pouch Diggersby -> lower tiers
Pickup Diggersby -> lower tiers
SM OU examples:
Hyper Cutter Gliscor -> lower tiers
Sand Veil Gliscor -> lower tiers
Torrent Greninja -> lower tiers
Flame Body Heatran -> lower tiers
Overgrow Serperior -> lower tiers
Weak Armor Skarmory -> lower tiers
Telepathy Tapu Bulu -> lower tiers
Telepathy Tapu Fini -> lower tiers
telepathy Tapu Koko -> lower tiers
telepathy Tapu Lele -> lower tiers
Unnerve Tyranitar -> lower tiers

That was long, and maybe a bit over the top, but do you get my point? If we set this precedent, what's stopping us from unbanning/banning all the other pokemon? Is there any justification to have Blaze Blaziken in OU but not Zen Mode Garmanitan? After a point it stops becoming tiers and starts becoming based on abilities. There will be so many rules in each tier about which abilities are banned and on which mons. Even the decision to ban dynamax, which was clearly a broken and unhealthy mechanic, was made with hesitation and caution, because it would add a new rule to the list of OU rules.

There is even more to this slippery slope. Is regular Groudon allowed in OU if all of it's IV's are 0, it has no STAB, and holds no item? Anyone can see it degrade from here. The smart thing to do is to avoid all of it, so we don't even come close to sliding down the slippery slope.

Also, so I can stay on topic, Magearna is very overbearing for the tier. It's not that specs Magearna is necessarily overbearing to your specific team, but it limits teambuilding and variety of pokemon in the tier.
I was using that as an example for terrible arguments that shouldnt affect whether something is banned or not, but you still make an ezecellent point as far as the topic is concerned.
 
After playing during this suspect period, I have to say that Magearna is very fun to use in this metagame, I love using it, and that it should be Banned from SwSh OU.

In my experience, Choice Specs has been the most common set, and it destroys so many unprepared teams. Volt Switch is practically free damage on almost everything, and combined with Magearna's coverage make Specs very difficult to switch into. Magearna's counters still take a hefty chunk of damage switching into Magearna's moves. One way I have been contextualizing the damage output of Specs Magearna has been relating it to it USUM Fairium Z sets. For the trade off of not having a fairy move that is 100 percent accurate, damages through protect, and ignoring the Fleur Cannon's -2 SpA dropoff, Specs Magearna gets to use Twinkle Tackle multiple times per game.

Twinkle Tackle off of Fleur Cannon = 195 BP
Fleur Cannon with 1.5x Specs Modifier BP = 130 * 1.5 = 195 BP

While Magearna can not use Fairium Z + Soul-Heart to set up and sweep through teams, it can release the same type of power as Twinkle Tackle to break down the other team only needing to switch out to ignore Fleur Cannon's SpA drop. Of course, taking into account if Fleur Cannon KO's the opposing Pokemon, Magearna's SpA is at neutral (Fleur Cannon drops SpA by two stages, Soul-Heart increases SpA by one stage, Choice Specs increases SpA by one stage). Combined with its defensive typing (Steel/Fairy is insanely great typing) and overall great stats, Specs Magearna can come in, take a neutral/resisted hit, and do what it does best, break through teams and Volt Switch past what it cant break.

Beyond that, any form of setup Magearna is a nightmare to deal with if unprepared. while Iron Defense/Calm Mind sets need to be played smarter than the Specs set to get in and set up (as opposed to Specs Magearna being able to come in and do whatever it wants far more), if Magearna gets setup it is almost unopposed and can end games, even against prepared teams. Scarf Magearna is also fun, as it can outspeed most of the metagame (Timid Magearna w/ Scarf hits ~ 376 Speed), outspeeding Timid Alakazam and everything below it (Timid Alakazam hits 372 Speed, the only other Pokemon OU by usage faster than Alakazam is Dragapult and Zeraora). I do not think Scarf Magearna is a amazing set by any means, but it can disrupt teams that rely on Magearna's low speed to respond to the Specs set. Cinderace is primarily the Pokemon that I am thinking of here, as a Cinderace that may switch in after Magearna KO's to get free a Pyro Ball off on Magearna or Magearna's switch in would instead get outspeed by Magearna.

I do think that Magearna should be Banned, it can hit it's counters/checks for substantial damage if they want to switch in, deals immense damage no matter what, and is generally broken in the SwSh OU Metagame. While I love Volt Switching / Fleur Cannoning the tier with Specs Magearna or watching a team crumble after setting up with Magearna, it is definitely broken in this tier, and should be definitely Banned from SwSh OU.
 

MANNAT

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Since I've gotten reqs, I figured that I might as well drop my opinion on this suspect. I haven't really read the thread so I could very well be repeating points that other people already said. Basically, I feel like specs gear is way too constricting with how obscene it is to switch into, to the degree that it forces many balance teams to run blissey in order to cover it in conjunction with other (borderline) broken stuff like volc. Not only can it function as a nuke that pounds bulky offense teams by firing off specs fleurs against the one or two mons that it deals with that the opp also can't sack due to being paired with something like uturn shifu or cinder, but it can also rip through balance with trick + volt switch to cripple and chip down the team until you get into a position where fleur gets a kill and repeat the process again. The specs set is enough by itself for me to consider broken, but the double dance set is ridiculous too. Paired with rillaboom and holding a grassy seed, it's very easy for dd gear to power past its normal checks and win games entirely by itself to the point where it can power through most teams unless the opp is using spdef haze pex. All in all my vote is a resounding ban on magearna.
 

Finchinator

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I hate magearna tbh but I have found a very very consistent way to counter it
Assault Vest Sylveon with Mystical Fire
have fun lads
Hey, welcome to Smogon. I am glad that you are coming up with an outside-the-box solution to handle metagame threats, but this unfortunately does not handle Magearna particularly well.

First off, Choice Specs Magearna should still comfortably defeat this. It can 2HKO with SR or 3HKO otherwise and you comfortably survive Mystical Fire. You win the 1v1 and also Sylveon cannot reliably switch-in. The calc below shows why this interaction is not ideal for Sylveon.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Sylveon: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I encourage you and other newer posters to share your opinions, but in the future try to remember that a counter need to be able to reliably switch in and defeat or force out the Pokemon. If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a message and I will gladly try to help out.
 
Been super busy but played my first game in awhile. Mag is definitely OP. Incredible typing, bulky, great synergistic ability, insane movepool. It's defense and draining kiss allow you to stall and its special attack allow you to sweep, with the crazy stat boosts you can achieve followed by stored power. The mon is broken but I'll miss using it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1161853313
 
This suspect is effectively over now but I felt like sharing my thoughts on Magearna just for the sake of doing so. Ultimately, I do think Magearna is too much for the tier at this moment, but this post isn’t going to be a one sided rant, and I would love to see Magearna tested in the future after Crown Tundra DLC.

Magearna is one of my favorite pokemon of all time to use, and I do feel it brings several positive aspects to the tier that will be noticeable if it leaves. We are not that far removed from a metagame where making progress felt insurmountable at times with WishPort Clefable and repetitive defensive structures, so to the extent that Magearna has disrupted that, I think that is not necessarily a bad thing. Additionally, I think the sheer breaking power of Magearna’s Choice Specs set does have some healthy effects as well. Forcing massive damage on dangerous pokemon like Cinderace, Volcarona, Toxapex, Clefable and even opposing Magearna upon switch-in is welcome in a metagame where Heavy Duty Boots and Regenerator negate traditional forms of chip damage, so wearing those mons down in a reliable way is not necessarily a bad thing either. It does have counterplay in this tier as well that isn’t too uncommon, but that’s already discussed well in the OP, so I won’t restate it again here.

I also haven't found most of the ban arguments to be that persuasive, if I’m being honest. I have been playing this game for too many years now and the “versatility” argument keeps getting worse and worse, so thank you for allowing my eyes to bleed out once again. Whatever Magearna did in Gen 7 is completely irrelevant. The fact that it can pivot out of its checks is not remotely unique or banworthy, and neither is Tricking a choice item away. Its bulk is a great attribute for sure, but I don’t think that’s what pushes it over the edge, and the fact that it can 2HKO most of the tier isn’t independently what breaks Magearna either in my eyes (many other breakers can do this).

For me, what does break Specs Magearna in this metagame is: (1) how many opportunities in this metagame it gets to come into play to begin with, and (2) the fact that you can’t properly punish it when it does gets in. A typical Magearna sequence looks like this: Magearna comes in off of a slower U-turn/Switch, clicks a move, does huge damage, and immediately switches out. The fact that so many common pokemon like Cinderace, Urshifu, Dragapult, Mandibuzz and Teleport Clef/Slowbro can all create free turns for Magearna to come in is part of why this sequence repeats itself again and again and again throughout games. You can only make so many hard reads to realistically stop this from occurring in the course of a game.

When Magearna does get into play, it breaks teams in the early game, and cleans them in the late game, including its own checks. I have no issue with mons that require careful pivoting or prediction, but Magearna rewards neither of those things. You are punished too heavily for making the “correct” play, and Magearna is almost never punished for clicking its moves besides a 10% chance to miss Fleur Cannon. In practice, this means that Magearna virtually never loses momentum or allows the opponent a chance to take advantage of a correct prediction. These are not normal qualities of a wallbreaker.

I’ll play the tier with whatever is in it and adapt, so I’m not emotionally invested one way or the other in the outcome of this test, but I do think Magearna will be banned in all likelihood. I don’t think it’s that far off from being fine in the tier with a few more options to pressure it, and I hope it does get retested, but that’s someone else’s job to figure out for another time.
 
I have never been a vocal PS player, or even active in Forums, having only gotten reqs once to vote against M-Sab ban back in ORAS.

That being said however, and wish the suspect coming to an end I would like to also put in my 2 cents and provide at the best of my ability my views on why this pokémon should be BANNED .

Magearna presented itself as a strong contender for top pokémon in OU last gen, and by the end of the first half of the Gen, everyone was aware of its strenght. It already showed signs, as many others who in this thread pointed out, of overbearing versatility (on top of infamous Steel/fairy type).

But that was kind of cute right? You could run the ever present assault vest, be a decent check to all the massively powered stuff, like Ash-G, tapus, Beasts, etc. You could run pain split to play around a Chansey, you had nice coverage, it was the first real mon able to set trick room and also sweep up as a nice gimmick (Like in that legendary Mimo team) all the while not being as much of an overbearing menace as today, being chipped down, checked by the ever popular, dearest of our hearts, Lando-T, etc.

Fast forward to gen 8

I'm not sure what happened here, honestly. The entire thread has been talking about magearna checks and counters, and how to play against it, but the reality is, with the new tools that it has been bestowed, and the general drop in power of the rest of the metagame, this is wishful thinking.

Even though the majority part of the argument is made towards Choice Specs mag, and while I also believe it to be the best and most constraining set, I think Choice Specs rise in popularity has made other magearna sets better retroactively in the sense that it's easy to become complacent about the nature of the particular mag you might be facing.

In the past, it wasn't necessary to pack a Holy Grail vs. Mag pokémon in your team to be able to play against it more comfortably (or at all, lol), even if you got chipped down, you could hit back, maybe sack even one to two mons to beat it if it really got out of hand but...




SPECS FLEUR - ?????????????????????????????

DRAINING KISS - thats right, Magearna doesn't respect personal space, this pokémon is an offender. You want to beat it with consistent neutral damage in an effort to win the game? Well you screw you buddy, i'm going to heal myself while also getting +1 each time you die in front of me, turning you ditch effort into an assured downward slope to defeat.

Yes, I said "Die in front of me". You want to sack a pokémon to hazards or die to chip damage in field to stop me from getting a Boost? Do I look like a Virgin Ultra Beast? I am a CHAD DOLL and I'll get a boost regardless, because my sadism knows no bounds.

STORED POWER - Oh, yeah no, I totally get it, being walled by poison types is a thing of peasants, how dare this overpowered fairy type's (who incidentally has 2 of the best boosting moves in the ENTIRE GAME) best psychic move be PSYBEAM??

No no no my children, we at gamefreak decided that, best it would be to give this pokémon that will never see an official field of battle STORED POWER, a psychic move that will achieve a whopping 120BP with 2 boosts, coming from a +1SPA pokémon that previously could be defended against with Poison.

And while the ever present and completely acceptable arguments of "Things don't exist in a vacuum" and "You can't counter everything at once" exist, my answers to those, in this suspect, are "It doesn't" and "Who says you need to?".

Magearna doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists in a vast many-layered realm of infinite possibility where the problem is not wether or not it will beat you now, but that it could, and it will always.


magearna.jpg
 
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