Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Switching Gears

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BKC

loose
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I used specs magearna in every game for reqs and found it overwhelming, as it preys on the slow, bulky cores cinderace and urshifu force the meta into. it pairs ridiculously well with them, too - you switch to hippowdon/mandibuzz to cover those two monsters and they effortlessly uturn out, so now you're staring down a specs gear who can maul you in so many different ways. it can further maintain momentum with volt switch to get another massive threat on the field safely (and it just keeps going on and on with cinder/ursh), it can cripple a wall with trick, or it can simply attack and blow something up, since it has the lethal combination of excellent coverage and the sheer resists-be-damned power of its fleur cannon (doing upwards of 40% to even toxapex).

I'm not saying the problem lies with cinder*/ursh or anything, either - with all the uturn/volt switch/teleport in the meta, breakers are going to get on the field more easily and safely than ever before, and your big strong choiced poke along the lines of band rillaboom or specs magnezone (both of whom also have switch moves!) is going to pose a massive threat. that dynamic is always going to be a part of the metagame and that is fine. however, mag is too good to be allowed in such a position - its movepool is simply too expansive and dangerous. it also helps that it has great typing and natural bulk, which makes it even tougher to handle than your garden variety breaker - it won't crumple to return attacks.

all that was just about specs, but let's not forget, it's not the only thing gear can run - the double dance set is similarly nightmarish. maybe in the future, after the next dlc, it can be retested, but right now the metagame simply cannot handle magearna, so I'll be voting ban.

*that said, cinder is ridiculous.
 
I completely disagree with that. We should not try and avoid making suspect testing mons because we "think" the meta could be worse afterwards. What matters is the current state of the meta, not the meta afterwards. If the meta degrades even further as a result, then more bans and potential unbans are always an option. Otherwise we end up with what was USUM imo, where most people can agree that there should have been more bans which could have allowed the meta to become better then how it ended up.

The reason why people talk about removing Magearna/Cinderace/Darkfu is because they are absurdly broken/unhealthy mons which lack any counters and make it extremely difficult to play against (i.e. Magearna gets to cripple anything with Trick due to no absorbers and snowballs incredibly easily with SP, Darkfu requires regen + resist literally for one set and I don't even need to mention anything for Cinderace). If defensive playstyles get too strong, then things like Pex/Regen can be suspected, but this is a thread for Magearna, so gonna get back on topic.

For the people who say that this is a premature test, or that its rushed, can we actually get some reasoning for why you think thats the case? Apart from ABR saying that, I've heard it from other people and there is never any context why. Our next change is months away at the soonest for DLC2, and I'd say that its fair to say we've explored most options for dealing with Magearna. I don't see how any more time before the next patch is going to make this mon easier to deal with.

Also people seem to have the misunderstanding that Chansey beats Setup Magearna, and this is just not true. Even if Chansey somehow got in when Magearna was +0, Magearna naturally outspeeds Chansey and after 3 CMs Draining Kiss will heal more damage then what Chansey can do with Seismic Toss. Even non-HP uninvested sits at 301HP so even without leftover you can never 3HKO it (Leftovers is usually run on setup sets anyways) Draining Kiss at +3 20.4 - 24% (35.8 - 42.1% recovered). The only set Chansey ever wants to see is AV and that just volt switches on you.
What I said wasn't to avoid suspecting testing, rather recognizing the conditions in which the metagame will be placed into, and yes unbans or additional bans are an option. What I'm trying to imply, is that when you remove multiple threats in a given spectrum, those being more offensively situated, the metagame takes a drastic shift towards defensive approaches. Take a look at when Magearna and Urshifu were released for example, we know bulkier team comps like corviknight, toxapex, hippow, are still in use, but we have mons that help to break down those cores. Tox + Mandibuzz wall banded urshifu due to toxapex being able to at most receive around 50% to wicked blow on jolly nature, and pivoting into mandibuzz walls it. Bulk up gets hazed as well. The point I'm making wasn't that you couldn't find good reason to ban magearna, rather I disagree with banning a general vast number of offensive threats that might detour the metagame as a whole. This is why I specified previously that doing so, would most likely result in a shift for sub setup users/stall. But hey thats my opinion, and I'm open to being wrong. If Magearna gets banned, I'm fine with that, because I see that it is a threat to the tier. I'm just implying that a multi-ban on a large number of offensive threats could be problematic.
 
I personally hate Magearna as it is constantly used with fleur cannon as well as it has a lot of bulk and can take a lot of hits from the foe when used right. it walls a lot of teams as well as has great moves to change the game into your opponents favour and it is very hard to counter for the new players .it is used almost in every game and I think that it is the second most used mon in the dlc.And i vote for it to get banned.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159113027-sw3whehw1d4iwg61mwpjl2weiqh6frlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159118579-67rx0mble8rg0pmhuako6nph0s0qkczpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159121913-12qtrz2fl6prkfc9hztcnm5ti5g3kqupw
I was Sync is Toxic.
as u can see what I had mentioned about magearna its unstoppable and cannot be defeated if used by a experienced trainer.and I would say that it should be banned from OU.Many players forfeit to trainers who know how to use magearna.
 
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As someone previously mentioned, the effects on the metagame post potential Magearna ban, or any ban for that matter, must be considered. Just like a doctor must first seek to not harm the patient, we also should not make the metagame awful. By banning certain mons we could easily trigger a snowball effect where 10+ would have to be banned in order for the metagame to settle once more. This not only takes too much time, but also prevents it from developing naturally and kills a lot of creative approaches that can only be possible in a well-known metagame not a always changing one. I believe that the healthiest metagames aren't just the most balanced ones, because otherwise you should start playing chess, but those with some luck factor involved and with a lot of diversity.

However, I do believe that Magearna kills just that - diversity, as she is pretty much always a solid option to slap on a team, due to her raw power and ability to nearly always make progress as well as due to her unpredictability as was pointed out many many times above. All in all, I think a ban's effect on the metagame is a legitimate argument, but not in this particular case.
 
Regardless if Magearna is OP or not, I find the metagame to be quite enjoyable right now. I haven’t had this much fun playing OU since ORAS. Matchup fishing is still a thing and will probably be a part of Pokemon forever, but I feel every kind of team archetype has its merit in the metagame currently.

I don’t feel this is presumptuous at all...here’s hoping that Magearna’s eventual banning will make what is already good even better.
 

DiscoDucky

formerly eaglehawk
Hi. I'm a UU player that more or less focuses a lot on Dual Screens offense. So I decided to give it a try and give my two cents on it so far. I'm currently at 17-1 (the 1 being a botched game where +3 SpAtk/+2 SpDef Magearna died to a Fire Blast crit) and almost halfway at reqs with my screens team. I'm not going to post the entire team, but I think this core has some points that should be discussed.

Screen Shot 2020-07-28 at 5.43.54 PM.png


Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 156 HP / 248 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

Mew @ Light Clay
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Teleport

Screens removes the pretense of predictive play with these two and allows either of them to accrue multiple boosts (+2/+2/+2 QD and a Shift Gear + CM). The core is pretty simple: 2 QDs with Volcarona and fire off as many shots as possible then clean with Magearna. Magearna's inherent bulk usually allows it to get a Shift Gear + CM off rather reliably, but the support of screens allows it to get an extra Shift Gear or CM off, depending on the team you're up against. In addition, Magearna's bulk, typing, CM boost, and Screens makes it nearly impossible to revenge kill. What makes it worse is that the extra set-up opportunities bestowed unto it from Screens allows it to get 2-4 Calm Minds off. At that point, conventional checks to Magearna that resist Fairy/Psychic coverage still get 2HKO'd, thus leading to a common situation (for me, at least) where Magearna completely 5-0's an entire team.

What makes all of this work is Teleport Mew. Mew's decent Speed tier allows it to get Screens up and taunt potential Defoggers, then Teleport out into either Magearna or Volcarona to bring them in safely, thus removing the entire risk of either Pokemon taking unnecessary damage. Mew's innate bulk also allows it to set up Screens more than once per game, which makes the VolcGearna screens all the more difficult to manage.

Screens Offense tends to exacerbate the worst of a set-up Pokemon (see Haxorus Screens in UU), but the fact that I won most of my games with a pretty un-revenge-killable Magearna going on a 5-0 sweep makes me feel genuinely bad. And this isn't even taking into consideration the actually insane number of viable sets Magearna can use effectively.

I might add something extra as I continue climbing the ladder, but I hope to come to a better conclusion by then. Normally, I would think that my wins could be simply chalked up to the quality of players down in low ladder, but after blowing up several other OUTU players who were also at 0 or 1 loss compelled me to write this post.

TL;DR: Shift Gear + CM Magearna under Screens feels like a cheat code given how stupidly easy it is to 5-0 or 6-0 a standard team, including some listed in the UU sample teams that I have come across on the ladder.
 
I would like to supply a Check to Specs/Scarf/Vest/SG+3 Attack Magearna and a Counter to shift gear + cm Mag.
:shedinja:
This pokemon completely walls Shift Gear CM Magearna, as the only attacks that Mag carries that can scratch Shedinja are Rollout (which is never seen) and Shadow Ball (which is seen, but is uncommon and is never seen on Shift Gear CM sets). The risk of shadow ball makes it a Psuedo-Counter to Specs and Scarf Mag due to its ability to switch into all its other attacks, and is only a check to Shift Gear + 3 attack and Assault Vest variants that carry Shadow Ball. But you may notice that without Shadow Ball, Shedinja hard walls all variants of Magearna, and can do one of three things;

A. Cripple it with Will-O-Wisp
In this case, the constant damage to Choice/Vest and inability to use leftovers can help to put it into Ko range of something like Magnezones Thunderbolt. The passive damage also limits its ability to sweep and can be a good way of offensively checking it when used with hazards.

B. Lower its Special attack with Skitter Smack
This isn't really useful since Mag can just switch, but the free switch can be nice to get in something that Magearna usually checks or can hit hard, like Cinderace or Urshifu (this also applies to all methods, since Mag will almost always switch out unless it has Shadow Ball and is locked into something else)

C. Dent it with Poltergeist

252+ Atk Shedinja Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This method helps revenge killers a lot and can also just apply damage to everything in the tier that isn't a normal type.

I should note that Shedinja has very little use outside of this role, but it does do this role very well and is really the only counter in the tier to Magearna. Because of this, I do think Mag should be banned anyways, but this can be a way for teams to deal with it if it stays in the tier, or just deal with it while it remains in the tier.
 
Sigh... another mon who is a victim to the coalition ban by the silent majority of the competitive community oh well it had it coming
I dunno about silent, but if the majority of players (silent or otherwise) who are qualified to vote in a suspect test want something banned... it's probably because the thing should be banned.

I honestly have no idea what you were trying to accomplish with this post. This is a game run by the community. If the community at large wants something banned, that thing gets banned. I don't see how that could possibly be spun in a negative way. It's the majority of players playing a game the way they want it to be played.
 
I would like to supply a Check to Specs/Scarf/Vest/SG+3 Attack Magearna and a Counter to shift gear + cm Mag.
:shedinja:
This pokemon completely walls Shift Gear CM Magearna, as the only attacks that Mag carries that can scratch Shedinja are Rollout (which is never seen) and Shadow Ball (which is seen, but is uncommon and is never seen on Shift Gear CM sets). The risk of shadow ball makes it a Psuedo-Counter to Specs and Scarf Mag due to its ability to switch into all its other attacks, and is only a check to Shift Gear + 3 attack and Assault Vest variants that carry Shadow Ball. But you may notice that without Shadow Ball, Shedinja hard walls all variants of Magearna, and can do one of three things;

A. Cripple it with Will-O-Wisp
In this case, the constant damage to Choice/Vest and inability to use leftovers can help to put it into Ko range of something like Magnezones Thunderbolt. The passive damage also limits its ability to sweep and can be a good way of offensively checking it when used with hazards.

B. Lower its Special attack with Skitter Smack
This isn't really useful since Mag can just switch, but the free switch can be nice to get in something that Magearna usually checks or can hit hard, like Cinderace or Urshifu (this also applies to all methods, since Mag will almost always switch out unless it has Shadow Ball and is locked into something else)

C. Dent it with Poltergeist

252+ Atk Shedinja Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This method helps revenge killers a lot and can also just apply damage to everything in the tier that isn't a normal type.

I should note that Shedinja has very little use outside of this role, but it does do this role very well and is really the only counter in the tier to Magearna. Because of this, I do think Mag should be banned anyways, but this can be a way for teams to deal with it if it stays in the tier, or just deal with it while it remains in the tier.
Don't forget to watch out for Trick, losing your Boots in Shedinja can be a death sentance.
 
Sigh... another mon who is a victim to the coalition ban by the silent majority of the competitive community oh well it had it coming
It's not silent if they are sharing their thoughts here. There might be a silent minority of people who don't want magearna banned though. And that's fine, try to qualify for the suspect or, even better, try to make people change their mind and vote for a no ban.
 

IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor
Sigh... another mon who is a victim to the coalition ban by the silent majority of the competitive community oh well it had it coming
This is just complete nonsense and I don't see how you can't see that. This "silent majority" filled out a survey and over 70% wanted it either quickbanned or suspect tested. And even if we are supposedly silent, why does it matter in the slightest? The people who get reqs are those who have shown to have sufficient metagame knowledge and deem whether a mon is banworthy or not, it does not matter if we are loud people on Pokemon Showdown whining about something all the damn time. If you don't want Magearna banned, get reqs and then give an explanation as to why you think it's acceptable in OU and not a snarky one liner.
 
I personally hate Magearna as it is constantly used with fleur cannon as well as it has a lot of bulk and can take a lot of hits from the foe when used right. it walls a lot of teams as well as has great moves to change the game into your opponents favour and it is very hard to counter for the new players .it is used almost in every game and I think that it is the second most used mon in the dlc.And i vote for it to get banned.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159113027-sw3whehw1d4iwg61mwpjl2weiqh6frlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159118579-67rx0mble8rg0pmhuako6nph0s0qkczpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1159121913-12qtrz2fl6prkfc9hztcnm5ti5g3kqupw
I was Sync is Toxic.
as u can see what I had mentioned about magearna its unstoppable and cannot be defeated if used by a experienced trainer.and I would say that it should be banned from OU.Many players forfeit to trainers who know how to use magearna.
So your argument is "We should ban it because it is hard to counter for the new players" ? What kind of reasoning is that ?

The games you showed are at 1100, most of the players are completely inexperienced, have teams which are not well balanced (and I guess it is normal because you start playing). If I sweep a lot of beginners with Volcarona, Scolipede or Haxorus, we should ban them ? Also any specs mon will be very hard to counter for the new players. And I guess it is the same for balanced teams : if you are an experienced player and build a solid team, I don't think beginners can break it easily.

I have also seen calc saying that Magearna CM wins against Volcarona. I don't know how the calc were made but actually in game I never lose with Volcarona (the offensive and the bulky one) against CM Magearna. Well of course if you switch after 2 or 3 boosts, yeah you can lose against it but it is on you, don't blame the mon, blame you. People want to ban it so badly that they are talking nonsense.

Is Magearna strong ? Yes
Should Magearna be ban ? Maybe
But is Magearna unbeatable ? No he is not

I admit that the specs set can be annoying for balanced teams but isn't it the role of a breaker ? With a choice item (specs or band) you have so much raw power. Any mon with a base power of 130 with a choice item is deadly strong.

About trick, yeah it is strong againt defensive core but it has drawbacks. First of all, if you give your specs to something like Rotom H you can ben annoyed and secondly, most of you are talking about Chansey/Blissey who can be trick but if you predict wrong and don't get Chansey/Blissey ? Mag cannot beat them anymore. There is one try. And this is something I think people tend to forget : play a lock item, it also has risks.

Of course you can click volt switch on Hippowdown but if he EQ he can severly dent your Magearna. And if he is spe def, he holds a specs fleur cannon.

Again I don't say he is not strong, he is, really strong but I don't think he is the monster you are describing.
 
So your argument is "We should ban it because it is hard to counter for the new players" ? What kind of reasoning is that ?

The games you showed are at 1100, most of the players are completely inexperienced, have teams which are not well balanced (and I guess it is normal because you start playing). If I sweep a lot of beginners with Volcarona, Scolipede or Haxorus, we should ban them ? Also any specs mon will be very hard to counter for the new players. And I guess it is the same for balanced teams : if you are an experienced player and build a solid team, I don't think beginners can break it easily.

I have also seen calc saying that Magearna CM wins against Volcarona. I don't know how the calc were made but actually in game I never lose with Volcarona (the offensive and the bulky one) against CM Magearna. Well of course if you switch after 2 or 3 boosts, yeah you can lose against it but it is on you, don't blame the mon, blame you. People want to ban it so badly that they are talking nonsense.

Is Magearna strong ? Yes
Should Magearna be ban ? Maybe
But is Magearna unbeatable ? No he is not

I admit that the specs set can be annoying for balanced teams but isn't it the role of a breaker ? With a choice item (specs or band) you have so much raw power. Any mon with a base power of 130 with a choice item is deadly strong.

About trick, yeah it is strong againt defensive core but it has drawbacks. First of all, if you give your specs to something like Rotom H you can ben annoyed and secondly, most of you are talking about Chansey/Blissey who can be trick but if you predict wrong and don't get Chansey/Blissey ? Mag cannot beat them anymore. There is one try. And this is something I think people tend to forget : play a lock item, it also has risks.

Of course you can click volt switch on Hippowdown but if he EQ he can severly dent your Magearna. And if he is spe def, he holds a specs fleur cannon.

Again I don't say he is not strong, he is, really strong but I don't think he is the monster you are describing.
I believe you don’t fully understand what makes Mag broken.


“I have also seen calc saying that Magearna CM wins against Volcarona. I don't know how the calc were made but actually in game I never lose with Volcarona (the offensive and the bulky one) against CM Magearna. Well of course if you switch after 2 or 3 boosts, yeah you can lose against it but it is on you, don't blame the mon, blame you. People want to ban it so badly that they are talking nonsense.”

Okay picture this scenario, you swap into Volc on their Mag while it setups a Shift Gear, it Calm Minds the next turn, if you Flamethrower it, you activate Weakness Policy and it OHKOs you with Stored Power, if you setup QD, Msg continues to boost up with CM and SG til it can kill Volc with Stored Power. Setup variants of Mag aren’t one note either, if it set ups CM or SG and you swap to Pex to Haze Stored Power variants, you risk getting OHKOd by Electro Ball or dented badly by Tbolt, enough to where it can beat Pex 1v1. This set doesn’t break Mag, but it can destroy balance teams expecting Specs and that brings up one of the main problems with Mag, its versatility.


“Is Magearna strong ? Yes
Should Magearna be ban ? Maybe
But is Magearna unbeatable ? No he is not”

Nothing has to be Mega-Rayquazza levels of broken in order to be too much for the metagame. Vish was far from unbeatable due to the existence of Toad, Gastro, and Bunker Pex, but it was banned due to centralizing the meta into just Clef/Corv/Toad teams. It forced you to run Toad or Bunker Pex in order to not get 6-0d by it. Mag fits this criteria as it forces players to run multiple Msg answers in order to not fall flat against it, which restricts team building.

“I admit that the specs set can be annoying for balanced teams but isn't it the role of a breaker ? With a choice item (specs or band) you have so much raw power. Any mon with a base power of 130 with a choice item is deadly strong.“

Specs Mag isn’t broken cause of its high SpA stat, its broken due to that and a combination of other traits like one of the best defensive typings, resistance to rocks, and good bulk giving it much more opportunities in switching in and breaking than other breakers. Rilla has a handful of good switch ins while Urshifu needs to land an Iron Head/Poison Jab in order to not to get walled by Clef. Mag can just launch a Fleur Cannon or Flash Cannon and OHKO/2HKO almost the entire metagame even to resists like Drill, Heattom, and Ace. It’s Volt Switches hit like a truck and it not only gives Mag momentum but it also lets it chip mons like Blissey, Heattom and heavily chips Pex and Corv. Flash Cannon lets it 2HKO Amoonguss and OHKO Clef while still being a nuke. Trick is what I believe broke the gear’s back, it lets it cripple Chansey/Blissey, Pex, Drill, Corv, Ferro, etc, and it’s not like it can‘t run anything else, Aura/Focus Blast lets it OHKO Drill, 2HKO SpD Heattom, and even 2HKO Blissey after one or two Volt Switches.

“About trick, yeah it is strong againt defensive core but it has drawbacks. First of all, if you give your specs to something like Rotom H you can ben annoyed and secondly, most of you are talking about Chansey/Blissey who can be trick but if you predict wrong and don't get Chansey/Blissey ? Mag cannot beat them anymore. There is one try. And this is something I think people tend to forget : play a lock item, it also has risks.”

Heattom is risking giving Mag momentum or getting 2HKOd by Fleur Cannon, your forgetting that Mag has other ways of beating Blissey/Chansey and its other “counters”. For example Blissey/Chansey are two to three Volt Switches away from being 2HKOd by Fleur Cannon or Focus Blast. “play a lock item” is much easier said than done when it comes to Mag also good luck if it turns out to be CM SG. Also even if Mag doesn’t break something the first time it can always come in again due to its typing + bulk. Its a very low risk high reward mon.

“Of course you can click volt switch on Hippowdown but if he EQ he can severly dent your Magearna. And if he is spe def, he holds a specs fleur cannon.”

No decent or experienced player is gonna leave their Mag in on a Hippo and click Volt Switch. SpD Hippo is an unset, like congratulations now Ace can break past you. All of our viable Volt Switch immunities are 2HKOd or OHKOd by Mag.
 
Magearna is a dumb dumb ooga booga mon. I think we pride ourselves on having mons in the meta that require some brains to use. Deciding between Specs Fleur and Volt Switch (or trick!) is truly a big brain play amiright. Ignoring all of its other really viable sets, I’d vote ban on Specs alone. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of the pivot move meta would be swell.
 
I believe you don’t fully understand what makes Mag broken.


“I have also seen calc saying that Magearna CM wins against Volcarona. I don't know how the calc were made but actually in game I never lose with Volcarona (the offensive and the bulky one) against CM Magearna. Well of course if you switch after 2 or 3 boosts, yeah you can lose against it but it is on you, don't blame the mon, blame you. People want to ban it so badly that they are talking nonsense.”

Okay picture this scenario, you swap into Volc on their Mag while it setups a Shift Gear, it Calm Minds the next turn, if you Flamethrower it, you activate Weakness Policy and it OHKOs you with Stored Power, if you setup QD, Msg continues to boost up with CM and SG til it can kill Volc with Stored Power. Setup variants of Mag aren’t one note either, if it set ups CM or SG and you swap to Pex to Haze Stored Power variants, you risk getting OHKOd by Electro Ball or dented badly by Tbolt, enough to where it can beat Pex 1v1. This set doesn’t break Mag, but it can destroy balance teams expecting Specs and that brings up one of the main problems with Mag, its versatility.


“Is Magearna strong ? Yes
Should Magearna be ban ? Maybe
But is Magearna unbeatable ? No he is not”

Nothing has to be Mega-Rayquazza levels of broken in order to be too much for the metagame. Vish was far from unbeatable due to the existence of Toad, Gastro, and Bunker Pex, but it was banned due to centralizing the meta into just Clef/Corv/Toad teams. It forced you to run Toad or Bunker Pex in order to not get 6-0d by it. Mag fits this criteria as it forces players to run multiple Msg answers in order to not fall flat against it, which restricts team building.

“I admit that the specs set can be annoying for balanced teams but isn't it the role of a breaker ? With a choice item (specs or band) you have so much raw power. Any mon with a base power of 130 with a choice item is deadly strong.“

Specs Mag isn’t broken cause of its high SpA stat, its broken due to that and a combination of other traits like one of the best defensive typings, resistance to rocks, and good bulk giving it much more opportunities in switching in and breaking than other breakers. Rilla has a handful of good switch ins while Urshifu needs to land an Iron Head/Poison Jab in order to not to get walled by Clef. Mag can just launch a Fleur Cannon or Flash Cannon and OHKO/2HKO almost the entire metagame even to resists like Drill, Heattom, and Ace. It’s Volt Switches hit like a truck and it not only gives Mag momentum but it also lets it chip mons like Blissey, Heattom and heavily chips Pex and Corv. Flash Cannon lets it 2HKO Amoonguss and OHKO Clef while still being a nuke. Trick is what I believe broke the gear’s back, it lets it cripple Chansey/Blissey, Pex, Drill, Corv, Ferro, etc, and it’s not like it can‘t run anything else, Aura/Focus Blast lets it OHKO Drill, 2HKO SpD Heattom, and even 2HKO Blissey after one or two Volt Switches.

“About trick, yeah it is strong againt defensive core but it has drawbacks. First of all, if you give your specs to something like Rotom H you can ben annoyed and secondly, most of you are talking about Chansey/Blissey who can be trick but if you predict wrong and don't get Chansey/Blissey ? Mag cannot beat them anymore. There is one try. And this is something I think people tend to forget : play a lock item, it also has risks.”

Heattom is risking giving Mag momentum or getting 2HKOd by Fleur Cannon, your forgetting that Mag has other ways of beating Blissey/Chansey and its other “counters”. For example Blissey/Chansey are two to three Volt Switches away from being 2HKOd by Fleur Cannon or Focus Blast. “play a lock item” is much easier said than done when it comes to Mag also good luck if it turns out to be CM SG. Also even if Mag doesn’t break something the first time it can always come in again due to its typing + bulk. Its a very low risk high reward mon.

“Of course you can click volt switch on Hippowdown but if he EQ he can severly dent your Magearna. And if he is spe def, he holds a specs fleur cannon.”

No decent or experienced player is gonna leave their Mag in on a Hippo and click Volt Switch. SpD Hippo is an unset, like congratulations now Ace can break past you. All of our viable Volt Switch immunities are 2HKOd or OHKOd by Mag.
Ok but in your scenario there are other options. If Volcarona QV again ? Mag uses stored power and does nearly nothing and Volc is at +2, can kill Mag and starts to be threatening for the oponent team. Or Volcarona can fiery dance and Mag CM expecting a QV and it's also over. Mag can SG but if Volcarona has QV, he is still faster and kill it.

So yeah with weakness policy (and only with this) Mag could win but he needs to predict very well and honestly I don't think Mag would have the advantage here. It is like sucker punch versus setup moves : when do you have to attack to avoid the sucker punch ?

But sure items can definitly help. A rillaboom occa berry can also beat a Volcarona (with chip damage and a good roll but still). But like actually I have never lost again Magearna double dance with Volcarona (even against a weakness policy which is not so common on that set, I see more often leftovers on it).

And you do not seem to read my post correctly, I did not say that it needs to be M-Rayquaza broken to be ban, I am just saying that he is not so broken, without questioning the suspect test at least.

Yeah Hippo spe def is not common, so ? Can't we adjust the sets according to the meta threats ? I am just asking. Is Hippowdown the only counter to Cinderace ? Something like mandibuzz phys def ?

Someone above said something about diversity, which be killed by Magearna. I honestly don't think so. On the contrary Magearna can be an opportunity to explore other sets.

I encountered so many core Hippowdown/Mandibuzz/Toxapex (with some variations with Amoonguss sometimes). I don't feel there is great diversity here and banning Magearna will not change that. And I like a great breaker like Mag to weaken these cores, otherwise it took soooo long, I hate that, I hate playing BO in this meta. Of course it is just my humble opinion. But for these reasons, if I make the reqs, I will vote not ban.
 
Ok but in your scenario there are other options. If Volcarona QV again ? Mag uses stored power and does nearly nothing and Volc is at +2, can kill Mag and starts to be threatening for the oponent team. Or Volcarona can fiery dance and Mag CM expecting a QV and it's also over. Mag can SG but if Volcarona has QV, he is still faster and kill it.

So yeah with weakness policy (and only with this) Mag could win but he needs to predict very well and honestly I don't think Mag would have the advantage here. It is like sucker punch versus setup moves : when do you have to attack to avoid the sucker punch ?

But sure items can definitly help. A rillaboom occa berry can also beat a Volcarona (with chip damage and a good roll but still). But like actually I have never lost again Magearna double dance with Volcarona (even against a weakness policy which is not so common on that set, I see more often leftovers on it).

And you do not seem to read my post correctly, I did not say that it needs to be M-Rayquaza broken to be ban, I am just saying that he is not so broken, without questioning the suspect test at least.

Yeah Hippo spe def is not common, so ? Can't we adjust the sets according to the meta threats ? I am just asking. Is Hippowdown the only counter to Cinderace ? Something like mandibuzz phys def ?

Someone above said something about diversity, which be killed by Magearna. I honestly don't think so. On the contrary Magearna can be an opportunity to explore other sets.

I encountered so many core Hippowdown/Mandibuzz/Toxapex (with some variations with Amoonguss sometimes). I don't feel there is great diversity here and banning Magearna will not change that. And I like a great breaker like Mag to weaken these cores, otherwise it took soooo long, I hate that, I hate playing BO in this meta. Of course it is just my humble opinion. But for these reasons, if I make the reqs, I will vote not ban.
“Yeah Hippo spe def is not common, so ? Can't we adjust the sets according to the meta threats ? I am just asking. Is Hippowdown the only counter to Cinderace ? Something like mandibuzz phys def ?”

There are many things I would like to point out about your statement. SpD Hippo is not common cause its bad at what its supposed to do and that is beating Mag, why? Even with Max SpD your still 2HKOd by Fleur Cannon and 2HKOd by Flash Cannon after chip. Even if you get a favorable roll you can’t OHKO Mag with EQ
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 309-364 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


So it becomes a complete waste when you take into account all the physical threats Hippo has to keep in check like Urshifu, Cinderace, Drill, Zeraora, etc. Even lesser ones like Conk or Lucha. No Hippo isn’t the only counter to Ace, but it’s the best one. Bro takes heavy chip from U-Turn that not even Regen can heal up, Quag is only ever seen on Stall and could still be flinched by Zen Headbutt, Mandi is reliant on HDB to answer to Ace, if it loses its boots, Pyro Ball 2HKOs after U-Turn and rocks, not to mention Mandi loses to BU variants. Hippo can not only chip Ace as it U-Turns with RH but it also can take Pyro Balls from even Adamant Ace. To answer your question about adjusting sets to meta threats, yes we have. Mandi started running more physical investment for Urshifu and Ace, Pult started running Darts more cause of Volc, Zeraora ran Volt Switch over options like Grass Knot more frequently cause of Rilla and Amoonguss. Players tried to adapt to Specs Mag by running more SpD investment on Drill, running more bulk on Heattom, using SpD Amoonguss, etc. The difference between those metagame shifts and the latter is that even with SpD Drill and Heattom you still don’t have a consistent Mag counter. SpD Drill gets OHKOd by Focus Blast and still takes over 40% from Fleur Cannon and can’t switch in again if rocks are up plus it still can be Trick’d

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 232+ SpD Excadrill: 168-198 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 232+ SpD Excadrill: 414-488 (114.6 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Heattom is 2HKOd by Focus Blast even with max SpD meaning it can only safely switch in once and gets 3HKOd by Fleur Cannon, and since its only means of recovery is the somewhat unreliable Pain Split, Heattom is slowly or quickly gonna get worn down in the long game plus Mag can always just Volt Switch on it no big deal.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 120-141 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


SpD Amoonguss is also 2HKOd by Flash Cannon after rocks and is Volt Switch fodder.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Amoonguss: 193-228 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

“Someone above said something about diversity, which be killed by Magearna. I honestly don't think so. On the contrary Magearna can be an opportunity to explore other sets.”

Can you elaborate and give examples that aren’t gimmicks or the sets previously mentioned?

“I encountered so many core Hippowdown/Mandibuzz/Toxapex (with some variations with Amoonguss sometimes). I don't feel there is great diversity here and banning Magearna will not change that.”

Mag forces you to run more than one answer to it leaving less room for creative teambuilding. If anything banning Mag would allow more freedom in teambuilding since you don’t have to dedicate two team slots for Mag answers like Heattom, Drill, Blissey, Pex, etc it will also allow mons like Zone or Kyurem to fill its niche. There will still be other problems that restrict teambuilding but that will be for another day.

“And I like a great breaker like Mag to weaken these cores, otherwise it took soooo long, I hate that, I hate playing BO in this meta.”

So basically. “This mon shouldn’t be banned cause I like it and I hate fat/bo teams” Arguing that Mag shouldn’t be banned cause its one of your favorites or you like using has never been a valid argument. I like using Mag but I can’t argue that it’s too much for the metagame. Suspect Tests don’t take into account how much people like using Mag, but rather how its affecting the current meta. Even if Mag leaves there are still many great breakers like NP Hydreigon, Rilla, Urshifu, Kyurem, Hera, Daunt, and Magnezone

“Of course it is just my humble opinion. But for these reasons, if I make the reqs, I will vote not ban.”

There’s nothing wrong with your opinion, but you still need to provide valid arguments on why you believe Mag is healthy for the metagame and sometimes replays or calcs to support your arguments.
 
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Magearna is a dumb dumb ooga booga mon. I think we pride ourselves on having mons in the meta that require some brains to use. Deciding between Specs Fleur and Volt Switch (or trick!) is truly a big brain play amiright. Ignoring all of its other really viable sets, I’d vote ban on Specs alone. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of the pivot move meta would be swell.
What is wrong with pivot move ? I have read someone in this thread who called this playstyle "brainless" and ban Magearna will reduce that kind of style. But what about the Clef teleport, Bro teleport, Chansey/Blissey teleport ? Bring a Slowbro then click on teleport, yeah not brainless at all.

At least volt switch you can block it with a ground type but yeah you have to take some risks and it seems nobody wants to do that in this gen.
 
Magearna is a dumb dumb ooga booga mon. I think we pride ourselves on having mons in the meta that require some brains to use. Deciding between Specs Fleur and Volt Switch (or trick!) is truly a big brain play amiright. Ignoring all of its other really viable sets, I’d vote ban on Specs alone. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of the pivot move meta would be swell.
Not a bad point.. specs mag is like banded scizor its actually kinda stupid when you can run SD instead on scizor and shift gear on magearna with calm mind added to the mix.. and get in a good sweep
 
I would like to supply a Check to Specs/Scarf/Vest/SG+3 Attack Magearna and a Counter to shift gear + cm Mag.
:shedinja:
This pokemon completely walls Shift Gear CM Magearna, as the only attacks that Mag carries that can scratch Shedinja are Rollout (which is never seen) and Shadow Ball (which is seen, but is uncommon and is never seen on Shift Gear CM sets). The risk of shadow ball makes it a Psuedo-Counter to Specs and Scarf Mag due to its ability to switch into all its other attacks, and is only a check to Shift Gear + 3 attack and Assault Vest variants that carry Shadow Ball. But you may notice that without Shadow Ball, Shedinja hard walls all variants of Magearna, and can do one of three things;

A. Cripple it with Will-O-Wisp
In this case, the constant damage to Choice/Vest and inability to use leftovers can help to put it into Ko range of something like Magnezones Thunderbolt. The passive damage also limits its ability to sweep and can be a good way of offensively checking it when used with hazards.

B. Lower its Special attack with Skitter Smack
This isn't really useful since Mag can just switch, but the free switch can be nice to get in something that Magearna usually checks or can hit hard, like Cinderace or Urshifu (this also applies to all methods, since Mag will almost always switch out unless it has Shadow Ball and is locked into something else)

C. Dent it with Poltergeist

252+ Atk Shedinja Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This method helps revenge killers a lot and can also just apply damage to everything in the tier that isn't a normal type.

I should note that Shedinja has very little use outside of this role, but it does do this role very well and is really the only counter in the tier to Magearna. Because of this, I do think Mag should be banned anyways, but this can be a way for teams to deal with it if it stays in the tier, or just deal with it while it remains in the tier.
Yeah, but it's starting to get ridiculous when you rely on SHEDINJA (Which is in Untiered) of all things just to counter Mag, and the problem is that it requires a bit too much of team support, but at this point, Mag is so OP that any counter is fair gain
(also don't capitalize every other word please. usage of the most basic of basic grammar rules is something I believe we can reasonably expect from eachother)
Also*, Usage*, and move Eachother to Each other or Each-other
 
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Magearna is a dumb dumb ooga booga mon. I think we pride ourselves on having mons in the meta that require some brains to use. Deciding between Specs Fleur and Volt Switch (or trick!) is truly a big brain play amiright. Ignoring all of its other really viable sets, I’d vote ban on Specs alone. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of the pivot move meta would be swell.
Kinda had a small stroke reading this, ngl. Anyways, this is a very uninformed and overall useless argument. I'm not even an OU player and I can tell there are several things wrong here. Voting on whether a pokemon (or ability for somethings) is banworthy or not should be a matter of "Will the tier be more playable, healthy, and stable tier if "x" is removed from it", not some excuse for or against banning it.

I think a great example of this is last generation during the whole phase of suspect tests conducted by UU for Scizor and Mega Altaria. People were too afraid of the "tier exploding or falling apart" instead of welcoming the change that was inevitably for the better. Now SMUU is a horribly unstable and restrictive tier where the meta is dominated by a few overally abusive and outright broken pokemon because half of the players don't like change or had some other stupid reason. Now, obviously there were a few decent proban and antiban arguments here and there, but stupid reasonings lead to stupid results no matter what.

Another good example, or examples really, is some of the arguments I've seen pop up here and there in random suspect posts. The ole famous "but the lower tiers won't be able to use x or do x" is one of my least favorite things to see in a np thread. The reason tiers even hold suspect tests is to better the tier itself, not the tiers around it. If "x" is removed from the meta, the other tiers will adapt regardless. That's how the system has worked from day 1, as far as I know, and there really hasn't been a major issue with how it's happened. If it's broken in the tier, it's broken in the tier. It doesn't matter if it's gonna cause a small issue for the tiers around, the ideal result is a stable tier, and if that's what it takes to stabilize the tier, then so be it.

I think it'd honestly benefit everyone for any suspect test to think about why they're voting the way they are. Is it because of just some random personal bias? Is it because you actually see the pokemon as a roadblock to a stable, playable metagame? If you just ask yourself that question before posting, I think it would seriously improve the quality of the arguments for and against a ban on a pokemon/ability, and overall the superior argument will inevitably push the community of said tiers in the right direction for the bettering of the tier itself.

tl;dr - think about why you're really voting the way you are before posting nonsensical arguments.

Thank you all for reading! Honestly if some of the info is repeated or doesn't make sense, it's like 2am where I live and I'm tired as heck. I wish you all the best in these trying times, and I hope you all have a wonderful day/night!
 
Magnezone can be used to trap Magearna specs after a fleur cannon.

I think this set can (in theory) work :

Magnezone @ Leftovers / Chople berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Iron Defense
- Body Press

It lives 4 fleur cannon in a row (if you are full life) from a Magearna, even without a spa drop.

Beside Magearna, it can also win against Ferrothorn even thought you have to pay attention to a predicted body press (you can play chople berry to switch safely on it) and trap the Corviknight not holding shed shell. Speed ev are there for outspeed Corviknight.

Just an idea I had today.
 
Magnezone can be used to trap Magearna specs after a fleur cannon.

I think this set can (in theory) work :

Magnezone @ Leftovers / Chople berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Iron Defense
- Body Press

It lives 4 fleur cannon in a row (if you are full life) from a Magearna, even without a spa drop.

Beside Magearna, it can also win against Ferrothorn even thought you have to pay attention to a predicted body press (you can play chople berry to switch safely on it) and trap the Corviknight not holding shed shell. Speed ev are there for outspeed Corviknight.

Just an idea I had today.
This is my first post to a thread~
Magearna can just Volt out. You see, the problem with Mag is that there isn't a viable counter to every set at once. You switch in Pex only to get hit with Volt. Chansey and Blissey can get Tricked. Drill and Ace get blown back by Specs. Weakness Policy is just funny. Overall, its coverage is great, and it has so many viable sets, generally you have to win mind games in order to beat Mag. Sure, every set has its checks, but you can't safely switch in them in fear of being momentum fodder or getting hit by its coverage. For these reasons, I think Magearna is unhealthy and should be banned.
 
Magnezone can be used to trap Magearna specs after a fleur cannon.

I think this set can (in theory) work :

Magnezone @ Leftovers / Chople berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Iron Defense
- Body Press

It lives 4 fleur cannon in a row (if you are full life) from a Magearna, even without a spa drop.

Beside Magearna, it can also win against Ferrothorn even thought you have to pay attention to a predicted body press (you can play chople berry to switch safely on it) and trap the Corviknight not holding shed shell. Speed ev are there for outspeed Corviknight.

Just an idea I had today.
Don't most corvi use u-turn?

Anyway, when you have to run a pokemon SPECIFICALLY to try counter a major threat (see previous posts about vish and bunker toxpex/gastrodon/seismatoad), it leads into a metagame where you specifically need to counter the threat, leading to a game of cat and mouse. And then, all mag needs to do is adapt its set to invalidate new checks.

On the main topic of if Magearna is ban worthy, I feel that it is. Trick breaking the main defensive checks in toxapex, blisseys and chansey is one thing, but the setup stored power set punishing late game is brutal and I do remember the AV set last gen being an absolute pain to handle. Last gen, the lack of decent recovery, outside of pain split, balanced it out. Draining kiss gives it regen for AV/specs sets.

However, as questioned before: where does the metagame go depending on the ban?

Magearna Banned
If magearna goes, the format loses a big special breaker and endgame win con, as well as a potent pivot. It's a fantastic switch in for urshifu-s clicking wicked blow, and is immune to the fairly standard fairy coverage option in poison jab, though still took a ton from CC. It also means one less pex check. Defensive steel jobs will return to corvi, skarm and magnezone, while the standard fairy switch in remains clefable. Physical walls also lose a fairly potent threat, so happy hippo, skarm and clef noises all around.
I feel like this will lead to a bit more of a tipping point on urshifu-s. One less switch in could lead to urshifu going for suspect.

Magearna not Banned.
With Cinderace and toxapex looking to be suspect tested at some point in the future, banning either of these 2 would make magearna far stronger. Toxapex loss would remove the need for electro ball on shift gear sets, thus giving space for draining kiss or another coverage move like focus miss. Cinderace gone removes an offensive counter. Either way, magearna would be tougher to eliminate, and would likely be either quick banned or retested. Either way, even without knowing the full extent of the DLC, its likely that magearna won't survive the year in OU.

Either way, magearna would likely be banned. DLC 2 is the only factor that would affect its ban potential really. But that is neither here nor now. The suspect is for this format, right now. Magearna is way too potent for the format to handle.
 
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