Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Switching Gears

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destinyunknown

Banned deucer.
I do not understand the OU council’s decision here. The reason given to suspect Magearna instead of Cinderace is that “we haven’t had time to get used to Cinderace”, but that doesn’t make any sense! Libero Cinderace has been around for almost 2 months now (so about 15 days MORE than magearna has been). And don’t give me the “magearna is a gen7 Pokemon”, there’s been way too many changes and that experience is irrelevant.

We’ve experienced Cinderace in both the pre-DLC and post-DLC metas, and he was insane in both. Having laddered and practiced a lot for WCop (and to get these reqs), I’ve always found Cinderace to be more restrictive to teambuilding as well as a stronger presence in every game. There’s basically no way to deal with Cinderace + volt switch cores other than using your own Cinderace + volt switch core. Rocky helmet sort of works but they always get knocked off and other support (spikes, wish) make it unreliable.

In short my experience playing against cinderace is that there’s 3 ways to win against it:

1) Have your own Cinderace
2) Hope for misses
3) Pray that your opponent is an idiot

It reminds me of how bs Genesect was in BW OU, it’s that stupid.

As for magearna, I agree it’s very strong, but its speed make it so you have a fighting chance against it. You can just choose to play a team that’s faster, and/or include one of its counters in your team (toxapex, Scizor, volcarona, Rotom-h all do quite a good job). Of course when played correctly magearna will do well and it usually gets to trade 1 for 1 but it’s impact on games can easily be reduced. That to me is a sign of a good Pokémon that makes adaptation necessary but not to the point that there’s no counter play like Cinderace. This is something that’s bugged me for a long time, Smogon needs to understand slow Pokémon are by definition easier to handle. Speed is the most important stat in the game! Slow wallbreakers can often be handled by adapting, let people adapt to them!

I’ve also seen speculation that banning Magearna would allow teams to prepare better against Cinderace (like running physically defensive Toxapex), why the hell does the argument work that way but not the reverse? Banning Cinderace would make faster teams better therefore making Magearna worse...

All in all I just don’t see how this suspect makes sense, Cinderace clearly needs to be banned, and banning Magearna won’t change that. However, whether Magearna will require a ban does depend on how a Cinderace-less metagame looks. As it stands I will vote do not ban, Magearna is not the problem here, and it deserves a proper test once Cinderace is gone.
 

Finchinator

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I do not understand the OU council’s decision here. The reason given to suspect Magearna instead of Cinderace is that “we haven’t had time to get used to Cinderace”, but that doesn’t make any sense! Libero Cinderace has been around for almost 2 months now (so about 15 days MORE than magearna has been). And don’t give me the “magearna is a gen7 Pokemon”, there’s been way too many changes and that experience is irrelevant.
First off, TDK did a great job addressing this matter in his post below the OP and I personally echo his sentiments here. However, I do wish to provide some personal insight on the process (and no, this is not an open invitation for this thread to devolve into Cinderace discussion -- let's stay on topic everyone).

As you said, Cinderace has been around for longer than Magearna. The thing is that simplifying it to that ignores important metagame happenings and context. Pokemon get better and worse over time due to a variety of factors. Cinderace was initially very good, but people tended to use Bulk Up variants and even Choice Band. These sets were good and it was one of the better Pokemon, but not many people believed it was immediately banworthy. As the first round of WCOP carried on, people began using the Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn set and then people began thinking it was broken. U-turn chipping "checks" like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon into 2HKO range goes a long way, especially given how accessible Heavy Duty Boots makes it. The first claims for Cinderace to be looked into came well after the first claims for Magearna; Magearna has been controversial since it was released and, in my opinion, broken since people started using Choice Specs often around when WCOP started. I'm not here to preside over how people view the metagame or what people think should or should not be looked into because thought-policing is silly, but the general consensus for a longer period of time was that Magearna deserved a suspect/tiering action than Cinderace.

In addition, a lot of people believed Urshifu was broken from day 1, but after a couple weeks of the metagame developing, defensive cores and structures adjusted nicely to it. It may still be a problem -- this is not me saying it is not, but it was very clear from the survey that it is not a pressing issue relative to other things in the metagame (i.e: Magearna or Cinderace). This is just one of countless examples of why waiting and handling things that are more clear-cut is the better practice when it comes to taking action in tiering. It is challenging to predict the future of metagames with a high level of precision, so on the off chance that Cinderace dies down in a similar fashion, it was best to handle the more clearly established issue.

We’ve experienced Cinderace in both the pre-DLC and post-DLC metas, and he was insane in both. Having laddered and practiced a lot for WCop (and to get these reqs), I’ve always found Cinderace to be more restrictive to teambuilding as well as a stronger presence in every game. There’s basically no way to deal with Cinderace + volt switch cores other than using your own Cinderace + volt switch core. Rocky helmet sort of works but they always get knocked off and other support (spikes, wish) make it unreliable.

In short my experience playing against cinderace is that there’s 3 ways to win against it:

1) Have your own Cinderace
2) Hope for misses
3) Pray that your opponent is an idiot

It reminds me of how bs Genesect was in BW OU, it’s that stupid.
I do not necessarily disagree with you on how effective Cinderace is in the metagame and I personally believe that if the issue persists, we should look to act on it in the near future. I reflected this in my personal response to the survey, too. However, I do not believe this is the appropriate place for this discussion and I would appreciate it if we stayed on topic from here on out.

  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process


All in all I just don’t see how this suspect makes sense, Cinderace clearly needs to be banned, and banning Magearna won’t change that. However, whether Magearna will require a ban does depend on how a Cinderace-less metagame looks. As it stands I will vote do not ban, Magearna is not the problem here, and it deserves a proper test once Cinderace is gone.
Your personal order-of-operations are not the ones we must adhere to and we are currently in the middle of a Magearna suspect. You are allowed to vote in whatever fashion you wish of course, but Magearna's suspect is absolutely justified and this thread, responses to the survey, and just a general look at its place in the metagame makes that clear.
 
I can’t vote cause I’m not in the banning council and I don’t really play Gen 8 OU but I’ve seen plenty of matches with magearna to say..yeah it’s broken ..

It can run plenty of sets, making it very unpredictable to come in on. It can trick Chansey/Blissey, ‘moongus, and Ferro, making all of them useless for the rest of the match. The ‘Knight and Drill gets blown over with Specs/Scarf Volt Switch and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast respectively, so rule those two out. Toxapex looks pretty good as a counter but Magearna has Stored Power, so Pex is gonna get clapped unless it has haze. CM+ID+SG all allow Megearna set up and destroy with Stored Power, and Draining Kiss gives it a decent recovery. Only thing that can even stand a chance is Cinderace or Volcarona, but you have to keep them both healthy to allow them to OHKO with Pyro Ball and Fire Blast. If Mag lives, then they get crippled severely by Specs Fleur Cannon. Salazzle could cripple Mag with Toxic and Fire Blast, but who uses Salazzle anyways? (......) Yeah, that’s what I thought. So yeah Magearna is busted. If I had a vote I would say ban it.


And then suspect test Cinderace one day.
 

Jordy

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I can’t vote cause I’m not in the banning council and I don’t really play Gen 8 OU but I’ve seen plenty of matches with magearna to say..yeah it’s broken
You do have a chance to vote, for the record. There is no council that will be voting on this suspect test; it's a collection of everyone that is able to meet the reqs set by the council that will be voting on Magearna. You can find more information in the first post in this thread, but for convenience sake I'll quote it down below.
voting requisites said:
  • To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 82 with a minimum of 40 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! OverUsed (OU) ladder
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTU. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTU FINCH.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Magearna, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until August 4th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
 

destinyunknown

Banned deucer.
First off, TDK did a great job addressing this matter in his post below the OP and I personally echo his sentiments here. However, I do wish to provide some personal insight on the process (and no, this is not an open invitation for this thread to devolve into Cinderace discussion -- let's stay on topic everyone).

As you said, Cinderace has been around for longer than Magearna. The thing is that simplifying it to that ignores important metagame happenings and context. Pokemon get better and worse over time due to a variety of factors. Cinderace was initially very good, but people tended to use Bulk Up variants and even Choice Band. These sets were good and it was one of the better Pokemon, but not many people believed it was immediately banworthy. As the first round of WCOP carried on, people began using the Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn set and then people began thinking it was broken. U-turn chipping "checks" like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon into 2HKO range goes a long way, especially given how accessible Heavy Duty Boots makes it. The first claims for Cinderace to be looked into came well after the first claims for Magearna; Magearna has been controversial since it was released and, in my opinion, broken since people started using Choice Specs often around when WCOP started. I'm not here to preside over how people view the metagame or what people think should or should not be looked into because thought-policing is silly, but the general consensus for a longer period of time was that Magearna deserved a suspect/tiering action than Cinderace.

In addition, a lot of people believed Urshifu was broken from day 1, but after a couple weeks of the metagame developing, defensive cores and structures adjusted nicely to it. It may still be a problem -- this is not me saying it is not, but it was very clear from the survey that it is not a pressing issue relative to other things in the metagame (i.e: Magearna or Cinderace). This is just one of countless examples of why waiting and handling things that are more clear-cut is the better practice when it comes to taking action in tiering. It is challenging to predict the future of metagames with a high level of precision, so on the off chance that Cinderace dies down in a similar fashion, it was best to handle the more clearly established issue.
This is actually the point I was making, Magearna and Urshifu were seen as the most threatening at the beginning but adaptation has tamed them to the point where they can be handled (while still significantly strong).

For Cinderace it has been the opposite, he was broken pre-DLC, and even though people adapted to the common set at the time, it just allowed Cinderace to adapt himself and become unmanageable. Indeed, adaptation has made Cinderace win and Magearna lose a lot of its initial power (catching unprepared people with those Stored Power sets). That to me is why Magearna is not broken, it’s effectiveness has decreased over time as players have adapted.

Your personal order-of-operations are not the ones we must adhere to and we are currently in the middle of a Magearna suspect. You are allowed to vote in whatever fashion you wish of course, but Magearna's suspect is absolutely justified and this thread, responses to the survey, and just a general look at its place in the metagame makes that clear.
I understand why you don’t want this to go off-topic but I really do not see how we can discuss a Pokémon in a vacuum. Banning something can make something else broken and viceversa. Banning something can also make a Pokémon that was strong much weaker, there’s lots of permutations and they do depend on the order the decisions are made. So that’s why I care about the order of doing things.

I do of course understand that my order might not be any more correct that the one chosen by the council and that both might be right (but may lead to different future metagames and banlists).

The point of my post was mostly to highlight an issue that’s happened before with slow hard hitters getting the boot too fast, when adaptation to a faster metagame could have rendered them much less effective.

I don’t think there’s a better place to highlight this point than a thread where such a Pokémon is being suspected (I could have posted this in a Hoopa-Unbound suspect thread or when Chandelure was suspected in BW UU I suppose). Anyway this is just some food for thought as I think that many players overlook this way of adapting to slow hard-hitters.
 
You do have a chance to vote, for the record. There is no council that will be voting on this suspect test; it's a collection of everyone that is able to meet the reqs set by the council that will be voting on Magearna. You can find more information in the first post in this thread, but for convenience sake I'll quote it down below.
Thanks for the heads up, but like I said I don’t really play Gen 8 OU that frequently, so oof. I just wanted to share my opinion of Magearna.
 
I got my reqs so I wanted to give my opinion on magearna.

In my opinion, it's not super broken to be honest, I've battle against it many times and I feel like there's too much usage of it beacuse it's too easy to slap into every team due to it's GOOD bulk and offensive presence in the metagame. It's true that magearna has a wide variety of sets but in general it's always going to be maneagable in the sense that common fire types such as cinderace and volcarona can obviously switch out into it and so many other mons as well such as toxapex with black sludge and spdef which is a mon that I haven't seen much but it can have it's usage but I feel like from what I've been playing in the Ladder, I haven't seen much of those, mix defensive amoonguss is pretty much the same since magearna lacks of ice beam on his special set with choice specs beacuse it needs trick to not get walled by chansey and blissey. excadrill is a mon that can switch into a specs fleur cannon at least once, if you click blast there are ghost types or mons that can take advantage of that such as Dragon Dance Dragapult or nasty plot gengar for example.

To me, I feel like the metagame needs to be more explored and find options which definitely there are some of them that are very useful (rotom-h, aegislash which is definitively still Good with the right support, sub lefties kyurem makes him waste all his fleur cannon pps, same happens with substitute corviknight. There are many things that can outspeed mag and destroy him (specs fireblast dragapult), sun, choice band urshifus, CB Barraskewda in rain, volcarona,cinderace, +2 hawlucha, volcarona, excadrill, aegislash diggersby and the choiced variants can be easily predicted by substitute mons such as keldeo, dragapult, hydreigon if you actually use sub hydre, sub gar, sub mamoswine, etc...)

All in all, I felt during the laddering time getting the requirements to vote that the most problematic mon that I've faced was adamant heavy duty boots cinderace, but I've never felt pressure by magearna and I use to play the Ladder quite a lot outside of the suspect test so I felt I had to write my opinion here :)

Have a nice day everyone!
 
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That said I think we heard all the pro ban arguments 500 times. Does anyone have a good pro OU opinion that doesn't involve AV Chandelure or Fling Blissey?

There is C h e e k P o u c h D i g g e r s b y
Diggersby @ Sitrus Berry
Careful Nature
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
- Spikes/Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Super Fang
- Recycle

I remembered this from a video Joey and Emvee did
Takes 74.2 - 87.6% from specs Fleur Cannon and you can Super Fang it or Knock Off............... yeah its just as bad as the others

Speaking of ways to counter Mag, I think people should consider the fact that Magearna can potentially change some things here and there that actually makes a huge difference in the way you have to approach it

For example the standard Stored Power set

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 156 HP / 248 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

This set can be stoped by Paralisis, Excadrill, Cinderace, the usual logical counters
but then suddenly it changes shift gear for sub or iron defense so that it can take its counters on
and also there are various and perfectly viable but more obscure sets like Trick Room or Heal Bell
but here is the thing, Magearna has 5 teammates, so that she can be well supported, or you can use Mag to support other mons on your team

Magearna has 0 counters because:
-There is no mon that can take on every single mag set
-She will always do her job if you give her the correct moves, evs, teammates and intentions, so she can go to all sides of the expectrum
-The fact that Urshifu and Cinderace are so good in the meta makes people go for physical walls so that mag will allways have some sort of entry

Idk if Im gonna make it to vote since im so bad at this game, but im voting BAN
 
I probably won’t be making it to the voting stage for various reasons, the main one being that I get no enjoyment out of laddering in the current meta, and I’m expressing the majority opinion that you’ve already heard about a million times, but I’d like to put my two cents in because I like to think I’m almost entertaining sometimes.
Packing Magearna on a team, especially combined with Problems 2 and 3 (Cinderace and Urshifu), ensures that you really don’t have to do much thinking on ladder at all. You get free wins handed to you until around the mid-1700s, and then you keep getting free wins handed to you as people of a significantly higher skill level try to play around Magearna with mindgames and bluffing only to be smacked in the face with Specs Fleur Cannon and lose anyway. It’s harder to deal with than a deck of cards coated in superglue. The fact that sets like Fling Blissey and AV Chandelure are being discussed at all, even in jest, shows how difficult Magearna is to beat.

I remember people calling Magearna problematic towards the tail end of Gen 7, which many people don’t consider a valid argument for Gen 8 since so much has changed, but let’s look at some of the Pokémon that were commonly used to threaten Magearna in Gen 7 OU (note that these could all still lose to Magearna if not played perfectly):
  • Landorus-Therian
  • Heatran
  • Garchomp
  • Mega Charizard X
  • Mega Charizard Y
  • Blacephalon
  • Victini
  • Mega Venusaur (no really)
  • Zygarde, briefly
  • Naganadel, very briefly
Now let’s see how many of the above Pokémon exist in the current OU meta.
As you can see, there’s a slight problem here. Magearna was... well, not exactly reasonable, but a lot of viable or semi-viable answers to it existed. You could build a team without needing to dedicate one or more Pokémon specifically towards Magearna (mostly because you had to include four or more Pokémon that could answer Lando-T instead, but that’s besides the point). Seeing Magearna in team preview didn’t automatically make it an uphill battle unless you were worse at teambuilding than a teacher assigning a group project. It was oppressive, but it could be dealt with.

The main problem, as others have said, revolves around Magearna’s versatility. It has a viable answer to every viable set in OU (and most of Ubers too), but enough about Fleur Cannon, let’s talk about some of the other moves Magearna gets. There are of course the classics—Flash Cannon for STAB, Shift Gear and Calm Mind for setup, Pain Split for “healing”, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam for coverage, Volt Switch for pivoting, Aura Sphere to hit Steel-types and Chansey, Focus Blast if you somehow missed Aura Sphere in the teambuilder, Energy Ball if you really hate Seismitoad, Explosion if you want to hurt Volcarona but also probably throw the game away because you just sacrificed the best mon in the meta, and so on. That was all well and good in Gen 7, but for some reason Game Freak decided that Magearna wasn’t strong enough, and instead of doing something sensible like buffing Delibird or putting effort into their work, they gave Magearna—and keep in mind someone thought this was a good idea—Stored Power, Draining Kiss, and Trick. These three new moves are an enormous boon to the bunny-bot. Stored Power lets it abuse boosting moves like Calm Mind, Shift Gear and even Iron Defense, as well as its unreasonably strong Ability Beast Boost On Steroids Soul-Heart, even more effectively than it usually does. Draining Kiss lets Magearna actually recover instead of pretending with Pain Split, giving it more longevity than the average dwarf star. I consider Trick to be the most game-changing of Magearna’s new moves, since it allows Magearna to wear neat fashion accessories like a sweet pair of glasses or a cool scarf and then give them away when they’re no longer needed. Suddenly having Specs or a Scarf is devastating to pretty much anything that can switch into Magearna more than twice. All of these moves combine to make an extremely versatile and unpredictable Pokémon that is almost impossible to play or build around. It’s time to take this pile of spare parts to the scrap heap.

TL;DR: Ban Magearna.
 
Basically all of the common steel types such as Zone/Ferro/Corvi lose to its Electric + Fighting coverage which the AV set and Trick set can both run. Also keep in mind that coming in as a check means Magearna has already killed something and is currently boosted due to Soul-Heart. The only steel type that can really check it in that situation is Excadrill and even thats getting OHKO'd by stored sets after enough boosts.

Its not that Aegislash hasn't been tried, its just a terrible mon for this meta. You have pokemon like Cinderace and Darkfu defining the metagame, and pokemon like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon rising to try and deal with them. You also have pokemon like Blissey/Chansey now in the game after the recent DLC patch which makes using specs nowhere near as threatening as it once was, and with the abundance of rocky helmet users and tanks to deal with and wear down Physical sets, you have a mon that just isn't good currently. Not to mention that Aegislash just gets volt switched on by 2/3 sets and if its ID + CM you don't even beat Magearna switching in. Your best hope would be to setup SDs along it doing IDs and pray your first shadow claw crits or else you have 60/50 bulk dealing a boosted Stored Power.

This Magearna Suspect doesn't feel premature at all imo, nothing about how broken and unhealthy it currently is, is going to change until potentially DLC2 at the soonest, and while i doubt it will ever be re-tested, there is always that possibility if the situation allows it. I have yet to see any reason why keeping Magearna would be in the best interests of our meta, and while I can understand this being a suspect test, I don't think many would have complained if this was just Qbanned and having something else be suspected in this timeframe instead.
Well, these two posts have detailed out Gen 7 checks and why none of them exist now therefore Mage is broken. However, most of this gen 7 hard and soft checks are returning in DLC2 (Victini, Heatran, Blace, Lando, Garchomp etc).

As for current checks, my personal experience so far has been that Mage is strong but there are multiple high OU tier mons that at least check it. We aren’t reaching into RU to find Cinder, Volcarona, Rotom-H, Excadrill, Blobs, Pex, Marowak, Amonguss, Magnezone, etc.

So yeah, it’s very strong but maybe I just haven’t been creamed by it enough. (or creamed enough people with it)
 
Well, these two posts have detailed out Gen 7 checks and why none of them exist now therefore Mage is broken. However, most of this gen 7 hard and soft checks are returning in DLC2 (Victini, Heatran, Blace, Lando, Garchomp etc).

As for current checks, my personal experience so far has been that Mage is strong but there are multiple high OU tier mons that at least check it. We aren’t reaching into RU to find Cinder, Volcarona, Rotom-H, Excadrill, Blobs, Pex, Marowak, Amonguss, Magnezone, etc.
The problem with the “but its checks are coming back” argument is that we’re not suspecting Magearna for DLC 2’s meta, we’re suspecting Magearna right now, and it’s extremely unhealthy right now. Like Melmetal, we can re-test it once that DLC drops and the power creep comes back in full force.

All of the checks you mentioned fail to switch into common Magearna sets more than once or twice. As detailed in the OP, Cinderace, Rotom-H and Excadrill are all 2HKO’d by Specs Fleur Cannon, and Excadrill fears Aura Sphere even more. Volcarona can’t come in on Stored Power sets and fears having a Choice item Tricked onto it (rendering it unable to Quiver Dance and susceptible to Stealth Rock), though it can at least function with Specs or a Scarf and can arguably be more dangerous. Alolan Marowak has the same problem—though Lightning Rod allows it to switch in on Volt Switch for free and it can come in on Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere if rocks aren’t up, Trick sets completely neuter it, Stored Power sets can KO it outright, and rocks make it much more difficult to switch in. Chansey is taken out by a couple Aura Spheres combined with Stealth Rock damage, and both it and Blissey are less than useless against Trick sets, aside from the increasingly and disturbingly common Fling Blissey. Toxapex dies to a couple Volt Switches, Amoonguss gets 2HKO’d by Specs Flash Cannon, and Magnezone dies to Aura Sphere. Calling these “checks” is a stretch at best and straight-up disingenuous at worst. And notice that I only mentioned five moves to deal with 90% of those.

Yes, it’s true that Magearna can’t beat the entire meta at once. However, it can beat almost the entire meta at once, and it covers the rest using what I refer to as the Schrödinger’s Greninja Theory. The basic premise is that, until a Pokémon starts using moves, you can’t tell what set it is and must therefore assume it’s running every set at once. This prevents you from switching anything in on Magearna with confidence until it’s already taken at least one life, which gives it +1 Sp. Atk and eliminates the possibility of anything switching in on it anyway.
 
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Well, these two posts have detailed out Gen 7 checks and why none of them exist now therefore Mage is broken. However, most of this gen 7 hard and soft checks are returning in DLC2 (Victini, Heatran, Blace, Lando, Garchomp etc).

As for current checks, my personal experience so far has been that Mage is strong but there are multiple high OU tier mons that at least check it. We aren’t reaching into RU to find Cinder, Volcarona, Rotom-H, Excadrill, Blobs, Pex, Marowak, Amonguss, Magnezone, etc.

So yeah, it’s very strong but maybe I just haven’t been creamed by it enough. (or creamed enough people with it)
1. If Magearna is less broken after DLC 2 we can resuspect it then. We are 100% not banning a mon just to wait for a DLC that doesn't even have a release date yet.
2. Let's see how many of the mons you named are actually semi-reliable counters (read: switch into it twice assuming they have time to use recovery inbetween).
Cinderace-Cannot switch into Specs more than once, is actually setup bait for Iron Defense Weakness Policy.
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +2 248 HP / 136+ Def Magearna: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (credit Snogre for this calc)
Volcarona-Again, setup bait for ID CM WP. Only switches repeatedly into Specs by running the suboptimal Roost, and keeping its Boots the entire game, so it is prone to Trick.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 167-197 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 3HKO after SpA drops
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 111-132 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. +1 248 HP / 16 SpD Magearna: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+3 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 301-355 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Rotom-H-It's Magearna's best check on paper, but it takes a TON from Specs Fleur, and has no reliable recovery, while being utterly crippled by Toxic or Knock Off. Gets absolutely murdered by the occasional Specs Focus Blast too.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 165-195 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Excadrill-See Cinderace. Even the SpD utility versions that have seen some use get murdered by having to switch into Specs twice.
Chansey-Completely crippled beyond use by Trick, murdered by Fighting coverage the moment it loses its item.
Blissey-Also crippled by Trick, takes 50% from Specs Focus Blast.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blissey: 330-390 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
Toxapex-Uhhh
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That will end well.
Marowak-I'm assuming you mean Alolawak here.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are you also aware it is slower than Magearna?
Amoonguss-Has to have its Spore available to do anything at all in front of Magearna. Magearna being immune to Clear Smog and Poison means it's just setup bait if Spore gets baited.
Magnezone-Uhhh.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
Magearna outspeeds. And ofc Zone gets murdered by any set with Fighting coverage.
 
I got reqs a few minutes ago, im just gonna post some thoughts for anyone who might be interested.
I'd rather focus more on the unhealthy impact mag has on the metagame rather than focusing on its individual positive aspects, which were already explained and discussed pretty well (the choice specs set is busted, the possibility to run many viable sets which require different answers, it can fit in almost every team, incredible stats, etc, etc...). And by that i refer to the massive volturn spam we've witnessed in ladder and in wcop games after DLC: in those teams, specs mag is usually paired with a strong physical counterpart, like urshifu, cinderace, and rillaboom, while fat mons like blissey and slowbro provide defensive support allowing said threats to come in for free thanks to teleport.
What i can't really stand about those team is how those momentum-grabbing moves allow players to stuck each other into volturn-teleport chains, where they basically know the move to click 100% of the time without taking any risks most of the times. Of course it's not like we didn't deal with u-turn and volt switch in the past gens (remember those boring volturn cores who brought in stuff like hoopa and medi for free), but with teleport's buff and the rise of mons with incredible raw power like urshifu and mag itself thing just got too harsh.
Banning Mag totally seems a legit way to weaken such a brainless playstyle, while i also believe mag itself should also be banned for the many pros regarding his individual condition (which i briefly wrote on the top of my post).
 
The problem with the “but its checks are coming back” argument is that we’re not suspecting Magearna for DLC 2’s meta, we’re suspecting Magearna right now, and it’s extremely unhealthy right now. Like Melmetal, we can re-test it once that DLC drops and the power creep comes back in full force.

All of the checks you mentioned fail to switch into common Magearna sets more than once or twice. As detailed in the OP, Cinderace, Rotom-H and Excadrill are all 2HKO’d by Specs Fleur Cannon, and Excadrill fears Aura Sphere even more. Volcarona can’t come in on Stored Power sets and fears having a Choice item Tricked onto it (rendering it unable to Quiver Dance and susceptible to Stealth Rock), though it can at least function with Specs or a Scarf and can arguably be more dangerous. Alolan Marowak has the same problem—though Lightning Rod allows it to switch in on Volt Switch for free and it can come in on Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere if rocks aren’t up, Trick sets completely neuter it, Stored Power sets can KO it outright, and rocks make it much more difficult to switch in. Chansey is taken out by a couple Aura Spheres combined with Stealth Rock damage, and both it and Blissey are less than useless against Trick sets, aside from the increasingly and disturbingly common Fling Blissey. Toxapex dies to a couple Volt Switches, Amoonguss gets 2HKO’d by Specs Flash Cannon, and Magnezone dies to Aura Sphere. Calling these “checks” is a stretch at best and straight-up disingenuous at worst. And notice that I only mentioned five moves to deal with 90% of those.

Yes, it’s true that Magearna can’t beat the entire meta at once. However, it can beat almost the entire meta at once, and it covers the rest using what I refer to as the Schrödinger’s Greninja Theory. The basic premise is that, until a Pokémon starts using moves, you can’t tell what set it is and must therefore assume it’s running every set at once. This prevents you from switching anything in on Magearna with confidence until it’s already taken at least one life, which gives it +1 Sp. Atk and eliminates the possibility of anything switching in on it anyway.
1. If Magearna is less broken after DLC 2 we can resuspect it then. We are 100% not banning a mon just to wait for a DLC that doesn't even have a release date yet.
2. Let's see how many of the mons you named are actually semi-reliable counters (read: switch into it twice assuming they have time to use recovery inbetween).
Cinderace-Cannot switch into Specs more than once, is actually setup bait for Iron Defense Weakness Policy.
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +2 248 HP / 136+ Def Magearna: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (credit Snogre for this calc)
Volcarona-Again, setup bait for ID CM WP. Only switches repeatedly into Specs by running the suboptimal Roost, and keeping its Boots the entire game, so it is prone to Trick.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 167-197 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 3HKO after SpA drops
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 111-132 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. +1 248 HP / 16 SpD Magearna: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+3 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 301-355 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Rotom-H-It's Magearna's best check on paper, but it takes a TON from Specs Fleur, and has no reliable recovery, while being utterly crippled by Toxic or Knock Off. Gets absolutely murdered by the occasional Specs Focus Blast too.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 165-195 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Excadrill-See Cinderace. Even the SpD utility versions that have seen some use get murdered by having to switch into Specs twice.
Chansey-Completely crippled beyond use by Trick, murdered by Fighting coverage the moment it loses its item.
Blissey-Also crippled by Trick, takes 50% from Specs Focus Blast.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blissey: 330-390 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
Toxapex-Uhhh
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That will end well.
Marowak-I'm assuming you mean Alolawak here.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are you also aware it is slower than Magearna?
Amoonguss-Has to have its Spore available to do anything at all in front of Magearna. Magearna being immune to Clear Smog and Poison means it's just setup bait if Spore gets baited.
Magnezone-Uhhh.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
Magearna outspeeds. And ofc Zone gets murdered by any set with Fighting coverage.
I’m gonna save the wall of text and just say it’s clear neither of you have spent any time battling with or against Magearna, as that is not how it plays out in practice, especially for the majority of the the fatter targets. “Trick” is many mons have been using for four gens now and doesn’t equate to “there are no switch ins.”

The Volcarona statements are especially egregious, as while its not as reliable with specs it does in fact switch in and overpower all other sets and saying Roost is “suboptimal” is just flat out wrong.

Pex takes 17% net after Regen from Volt Switch and stalls out both double dance sets.

Everyone knows Mage is strong, but disregarding that it has any kind of counterplay at all is just disingenuous. I’d argue that most of its damage is done the first time it sees the field when you don’t know what set it is.
 
I’m gonna save the wall of text and just say it’s clear neither of you have spent any time battling with or against Magearna, as that is not how it plays out in practice, especially for the majority of the the fatter targets. “Trick” is many mons have been using for four gens now and doesn’t equate to “there are no switch ins.”
I’m gonna save the wall of text and just say it’s clear you have not spent any time looking at any metagame trends jesus have seen how many mons are using Trick??? These things called "Mega Stones" and "Z Crystals" used to block it. Since you don't understand how Trick works I'll make it clear for you:
Chaney is facing Specs Magearna. The Specs Magearna is almost dead weight while Chansey is alive. So it cripples it with Trick, letting its teammates sweep easier while still being useful without the Choice item. Chansey is basically all but OHKOed, and all it can do is switch into moves and switch out, or else turn itself into ez setup fodder for anything.
Basically, the few answers Specs Magearna has gets a spite present that makes them much more useless than Magearna without an item, letting it beat them anyway.
The Volcarona statements are especially egregious, as while its not as reliable with specs it does in fact switch in and overpower all other sets and saying Roost is “suboptimal” is just flat out wrong.
I literally just posted a set of calcs showing how Volc loses to CM Weakness Policy Magearna. And running Roost=not running coverage=bad.
Pex takes 17% net after Regen from Volt Switch and stalls out both double dance sets.
This is such a blatant lie I'm not even going to bother. Hint: Sharp stones go ouchies.
 
And by that i refer to the massive volturn spam we've witnessed in ladder and in wcop games after DLC:

What i can't really stand about those team is how those momentum-grabbing moves allow players to stuck each other into volturn-teleport chains, where they basically know the move to click 100% of the time without taking any risks most of the times.


Banning Mag totally seems a legit way to weaken such a brainless playstyle,
I feel exactly the same way! I've faced so many teams that, on closer inspection, you realize "wow, 5 out of these 6 mons commonly run u-turn/volt switch."

I have, no exaggeration, played a number of games where my opponent just clicked uturn/volt switch 3+ times in a row. You're not even predicting or playing mind games at that point. A couple times, it got so bad, I felt perfectly safe leaving my win con in on a mon that otherwise 1HKO'd it and setup to sweep, because, of course, they only click uturn.
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I think the idea of "momentum" has been gravely misunderstood by some players and it has had way too much importance placed on it. Momentum is only good if you take advantage of it!
 
Cinderace could also miss
So there goes a loss
So can Fleur Cannon. Banking on a 10% chance is never a healthy wincondition no matter the mon. Hell, even with 70% accurate moves I wouldn't consider it a very good wincon if you need it to miss. If misses are so precious then why doesn't everything run Bright Powder?

I also don't understand how "Cinderace can miss tho" is even an argument to ban Magearna. Stuff misses, sure, and it costs you games, but looking at the big picture, as a whole and on average, Ace won't miss and can therefore take it out.
 
So can Fleur Cannon. Banking on a 10% chance is never a healthy wincondition no matter the mon. Hell, even with 70% accurate moves I wouldn't consider it a very good wincon if you need it to miss. If misses are so precious then why doesn't everything run Bright Powder?

I also don't understand how "Cinderace can miss tho" is even an argument to ban Magearna. Stuff misses, sure, and it costs you games, but looking at the big picture, as a whole and on average, Ace won't miss and can therefore take it out.
Because there is more useful items then bright powder or lax incense
And plus I want magerna gone out of ou tooo. Shouldn't mythical Pokemon be in uber? No for some reason. Just like in past gen zeraora was in uu and ou? Now that's unfair cinderace and is libero is fine where he is or her. I dislike op Pokemon being in ou, it's a pain for a very highly op Pokemon being down here, only 2 weaknesses and 2 immunities is very good. My coverage game isn't very good I rarely have fire moves nor earth moves and I've think I seen magerna with a air balloon (-_-). And the calm minds with gear shifts= I usually lose my hazers or she flees with volt switch. I don't like playing ou no more because of this. :/ she should be ban( (her coverage is to good) (sorry if that is weird in my essay but I am very sorry if you need to curse at me for hurting your eyes your freely gladly to)
 
Out of the DLC, you can clearly tell Magearna benefited the most from it based on its new moves (Trick, Iron Defense, Stored Power, Draining Kiss, ElectroBall, Misty Explosion). While I do think Urshifu, Cinderace and even Toxapex can pose problems with teambuilding, Magearna invalidates the majority of the current meta.

Specs + Fleur is a 2HKO on nearly all relevant mons that even resist (Excadrill, Cinderace, etc.) Trick is there to exploit fat like Chansey, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Mandibuzz.

Then you have the Stored Power set that becomes a punishing end game for you unless your Toxapex manages to get the Scald burn + Haze. Same goes for Hippo if it has Whirlwind. Surprising have not seen Taunt being utilized more than expected on high ladder matches, but it does work...if the boosts don't exist yet.

Assault Vest makes Magearna a fat pivot that can Volt Switch itself into heavy hitters or reliable counters/checks. The slow speed is warranted for a slow pivot that makes it reliable for teams that need something to take a hit.

Trick Room Mag is niche but performs well as it can bait a fat mon into Misty Explosion to bring in OTR mons like Alolan Marowak.

Yeah, while I agree there are 3 other mons that might be putting a current stronghold on the meta, Magearna would need to be banned first to address other issues.
 
I think banning Magearna would be very detrimental to OU.

It’s a good breaker yea. It can sweep some teams with some sets too. But to me it doesn’t pass the point of being too effective at doing so. You could say that technically it has no true counters and you’re probably not wrong in saying that, but it wouldn’t be the first pokemon to be defined as such. It offers a healthy amount of offensive potential to keep the game going while not being overbearing in doing so.

I don’t think Toxapex or anything else needs a ban... but I think banning breakers right now would only exacerbate the issue of exceedingly slow pacing and forced balance cores. If you can predict around Magearna or soft check it with offensive answers like Cinderace then you’re fine. It’s slow enough to where revenge killing is a form of valid counterplay.

I understand the poll (and this was a good thing to do) indicated some support for a gear test but this genuinely seems rushed. I don’t wanna ban cinder right now either but if anything were to be tested/banned it’s definitely the most potent.

Thanks for reading
 
After I played a few more games, my stance on Magearna changed yet again. It isn’t all that broken; it’s the move Trick that is causing all the headaches.

Magearna wasn’t annoying in Gen 7 because it lacked Trick, and Trick wasn’t a relevant move because of Megas, so you could play around it. When your only answer is Chansey, and Chansey gets neutered by Trick, that’s when Magearna becomes too much (or too annoying, rather). Just because a Pokemon is annoying to play around does not make it broken.
 
I still think Magearna is an unhealthy threat to the OU metagame, but not necessarily flat-out broken.

Sure, Magearna can trick Chansey or Blissey but, it's still not beating them that easily. Mag's power drops and those 2 walls are still bulky and can still go for recovery. The problem I have with it is how it opens them up for other powerful breakers that are already teetering on being broken. Like Volcorona, which appreciates either one being crippled. It's unhealthy and there is no valid counterplay.

Magearna is too good at maintaining momentum which limits counterplay. Due to its immense bulk, it can tank SE STAB hits if ran with the right EVs in order to lure threats or get off necessary chip for another team mate to sweep. This is also highly unpredictable due to how splashable so many of its sets are on teams. It appreciates rain teams for a better match-up against Cinderace; Sand because it doesn't get chipped; Hail Veil Offense for set-up; balance cores that need a volt-user; HO with scarf or trick/specs (could also use Shift Gear set). The list goes on.

I hope it gets banned due to its nigh-unstoppable momentum grabs, versatility, bulk and power.
 
I still think Magearna is an unhealthy threat to the OU metagame, but not necessarily flat-out broken.

Sure, Magearna can trick Chansey or Blissey but, it's still not beating them that easily. Mag's power drops and those 2 walls are still bulky and can still go for recovery. The problem I have with it is how it opens them up for other powerful breakers that are already teetering on being broken. Like Volcorona, which appreciates either one being crippled. It's unhealthy and there is no valid counterplay.

Magearna is too good at maintaining momentum which limits counterplay. Due to its immense bulk, it can tank SE STAB hits if ran with the right EVs in order to lure threats or get off necessary chip for another team mate to sweep. This is also highly unpredictable due to how splashable so many of its sets are on teams. It appreciates rain teams for a better match-up against Cinderace; Sand because it doesn't get chipped; Hail Veil Offense for set-up; balance cores that need a volt-user; HO with scarf or trick/specs (could also use Shift Gear set). The list goes on.

I hope it gets banned due to its nigh-unstoppable momentum grabs, versatility, bulk and power.
I like how this is all true, I can't relate to the weather megearna teams, but it pretty bulky with 110 base def and spd. Is pretty good, too good actually and I have also seen a magerna with a physical attacks to break my blissey and chansey.
 
From my previous experience in older gens, and adapting to the recent changes in SS OU, before deeming anything ban-worthy, I typically look at what I would predict would happen to the current metagame. Keep in mind that we'll be expecting another shift in the metagame when the second expansion is released, but for our current metagame, acknowledging team building methods is crucial. I know people have briefly mentioned Urshifu and Cinderace on a thread meant for Magearna, so I'll try to focus my "opinion" accurately on the matter.

Currently, from my experiences on the ladder, what I believe a majority of players see are obviously the top threats with Magearna being one of the main concerns. Magearna appears to lack any hard counters, similarly to what ABR mentioned previously, however without Magearna being in the metagame, I believe offensive teambuilds will still be viable to pressure stall compositions. Removing multiple offensive threats however, will lead towards a metagame based around a stall/balance format. Again I really don't want to discuss other mons that will be questioned for future bans. I just want us to think logically as to what we imagine the metagame as a whole to be constructed from, and apply this idea for any post regarding bans. Having the opportunity to see efficient hyper offensive, bulky offense, balance, and even "stall" teams allow for a broad range of freedom and opportunity for both creative, and counterplay measures in both team tours, and ladder gameplay. With this in mind, I believe that our current metagame has done just that. (although you could argue that everything is still being tested, and we haven't had the metagame for very long) I'm not fully against the ban of Magearna, but if I have to mention other mons in this post, I would say that banning Magearna on top of our other offensive threats such as Urshifu or Cinderace without punishing bulkier threats, would place our metagame in a worse spot than it currently is. I think this would limit team building to sub setups/stall only formats. Again, this is just my current opinion, and I'm sure the next expansion will also offer new threats that will make the metagame great in new ways.
 
I completely disagree with that. We should not try and avoid suspect testing mons because we "think" the meta could be worse afterwards. What matters is the current state of the meta, not the meta afterwards. If the meta degrades even further as a result, then more bans and potential unbans are always an option. Otherwise we end up with what was USUM imo, where most people can agree that there should have been more bans which could have allowed the meta to become better then how it ended up.

The reason why people talk about removing Magearna/Cinderace/Darkfu is because they are absurdly broken/unhealthy mons which lack any counters and make it extremely difficult to play against (i.e. Magearna gets to cripple anything with Trick due to no absorbers and snowballs incredibly easily with SP, Darkfu requires regen + resist literally for one set and I don't even need to mention anything for Cinderace). If defensive playstyles get too strong, then things like Pex/Regen can be suspected, but this is a thread for Magearna, so gonna get back on topic.

For the people who say that this is a premature test, or that its rushed, can we actually get some reasoning for why you think thats the case? Apart from ABR saying that, I've heard it from other people and there is never any context why. Our next change is months away at the soonest for DLC2, and I'd say that its fair to say we've explored most options for dealing with Magearna. I don't see how any more time before the next patch is going to make this mon easier to deal with.

Also people seem to have the misunderstanding that Chansey beats Setup Magearna, and this is just not true. Even if Chansey somehow got in when Magearna was +0, Magearna naturally outspeeds Chansey and after 3 CMs Draining Kiss will heal more damage then what Chansey can do with Seismic Toss. Even non-HP uninvested sits at 301HP so even without leftover you can never 3HKO it (Leftovers is usually run on setup sets anyways) Draining Kiss at +3 20.4 - 24% (35.8 - 42.1% recovered). The only set Chansey ever wants to see is AV and that just volt switches on you.
 
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