Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Switching Gears

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Perish Song

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I did not have problems with the specs set but maybe it is because I play most of the time HO teams. This set is amazing but I would not say broken. I admit that fleur cannon is overpowered and 2HKO most of the meta but in fact it is not a real 2HKO because of the SPA drop. So bring a mon that resists to it and heal back (regenerator mons work too). Also, like all other choice lock item, you become a setup fodder.

Yeah trick is an issue too but in this generation there are no mega and Z move so that move has become very powerful in general.

Choice specs it is a gamble but is it not the case ? I think risks should be rewarded. But today the meta is so fat that we just take a check for the best mons and do not anticipate.
The vibe I get from your post is that you think Magearna is only ever clicking Trick or Fleur Cannon, and it's possible to play around that? I tend to disagree as one of Magearna's main problem comes from unpredictability. You don't know what you are facing until it uses a move and that can be pretty costly if you predict that wrong. It can start setting up as ur predicting it to be Scarf or Specs, then stuff goes downhill from that. For Choice Specs, going blindly into a defensive Pokemon such as Chansey, Toxapex or Slowbro might result in Magearna locking them for Trick. Furthermore, Magearna's move options on Choice Specs sets are not limited to just clicking the aforementioned moves either, common checks in Excadrill and Ferrothorn are threatened by Aura Sphere while you can also switch out with Volt Switch against offensive checks. Overall it's not as easy to play around it.

Your statement about Trick is a bit confusing cuz that's exactly what makes Trick good, and shouldn't really be used as a counterargument why Magearna shouldn't be banned. Being able to abuse Trick without any major drawbacks is so good that its another quality of Magearna that makes it super good. Especially against fat teams that u get multiple Trick opportunities.
 
Magearna with Grassy Terrain support is borked. It patches up its biggest weakness, allowing the Choice Specs set to annoy like a maniac and the boosting sets to get a free Shift Gear/Calm Mind boost much of the time. This thing in general gets too many opportunities to switch in and wreak havoc, to the point where you gotta hope your Cinderace is alive and well. It should probably be banned. Stored Power isn't doing it any favours either.
 
This vanity suspect is absolutely embarrassing and frankly, a disrespectful waste of time. we all know it's going to be banned why are you going out of your way to go through the motions of something that is clearly going to be nearly 85%+. in fact, if you're just doing those things that means you're suspecting the exact wrong things out of some semblance of a community; but it's not. you're just giving pefunctory wins to shit that everyone knows should be banned. there is not a single reason to keep magearna here. It was broken last generation and it's worse now. the sheer bulk, power and typing of ensure that yall go out of your way to try and steam roll a team with one mon and are successful many times. you play like it's broken and it ius. theres not point to this. specs is absolutely out of control and the av set or calm mind sets are just ridiculous. I got my darm taken out bc It was iron defense and I just had to lose.

lastly, in the future, please actually have inclusive surveys for the community instead of just the tour circle jerk. sometimes they may align but relying on the tour circle jerk alone is a sure-fire way to get negative value information a good portion of the time. anyway, yes. we all know it's going to be banned. there is not a single competent reason to keep it here
 
Magearna.... just..... no. This thing got even more tools than last gen, has good defensive stats and offensive ones too, has a way to patch up all of its stats in some way, can break stall, snowball sweep with Stored Power sets, gain its health back with Draining Kiss, Fleur Cannon any Unaware "counters", and has no true counter as Zone is weak to Focus Blast and Aura Sphere. Its counterplay is very limited and forces you to consider it more than you should in teambuilding, and it's so versatile that you don't know what set it is until one of your mons are down or seriously weakened. These are just some of the reasons that this is the first suspect I will be laddering for, and should I get the reqs, I am leaning towards voting BAN.

This being said, I'd like to talk about Mantine and Dragalge as potential Magearna counters. They both get Haze and good SpDef (which doesn't do shit against physical variants but I haven't seen any of those), and Dragalge in particular resists or takes neutral from the majority of its moves. Granted, they die to Trick sets and Dragalge can't touch Magearna with its Adaptability-boosted STABs, but I'd say they're good against non-Trick variants.

EDIT: Upon calcs, Dragalge can't touch Mag and needs +1 with 252/4 to not get 2HKOed by Mag. Calcs regarding Mantine to come.

EDIT 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: Mantine 7HKOes it :facepalm:. Magearna can't kill it though and it just Roosts on it so it does win the 1v1. Another post regarding counters and checks to come.

This vanity suspect is absolutely embarrassing and frankly, a disrespectful waste of time. we all know it's going to be banned why are you going out of your way to go through the motions of something that is clearly going to be nearly 85%+. in fact, if you're just doing those things that means you're suspecting the exact wrong things out of some semblance of a community; but it's not. you're just giving pefunctory wins to shit that everyone knows should be banned. there is not a single reason to keep magearna here. It was broken last generation and it's worse now. the sheer bulk, power and typing of ensure that yall go out of your way to try and steam roll a team with one mon and are successful many times. you play like it's broken and it ius. theres not point to this. specs is absolutely out of control and the av set or calm mind sets are just ridiculous. I got my darm taken out bc It was iron defense and I just had to lose.

lastly, in the future, please actually have inclusive surveys for the community instead of just the tour circle jerk. sometimes they may align but relying on the tour circle jerk alone is a sure-fire way to get negative value information a good portion of the time. anyway, yes. we all know it's going to be banned. there is not a single competent reason to keep it here
What is it that you want from Smogon? Not only would a quickban be inappropriate this far after the DLC, remember that this is OU, the face of Showdown and Smogon as a whole. This suspect is to gauge what others think of this mon regardless of whether it should be banned or not. If Smogon was just quickbans all day it would quickly become unrepresentative of the Smogon player base as a whole. Regardless of whether Magearna will or won't be banned this suspect was very clearly the appropriate thing to do.
 
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TDK

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This vanity suspect is absolutely embarrassing and frankly, a disrespectful waste of time. we all know it's going to be banned why are you going out of your way to go through the motions of something that is clearly going to be nearly 85%+. in fact, if you're just doing those things that means you're suspecting the exact wrong things out of some semblance of a community; but it's not. you're just giving pefunctory wins to shit that everyone knows should be banned. there is not a single reason to keep magearna here. It was broken last generation and it's worse now. the sheer bulk, power and typing of ensure that yall go out of your way to try and steam roll a team with one mon and are successful many times. you play like it's broken and it ius. theres not point to this. specs is absolutely out of control and the av set or calm mind sets are just ridiculous. I got my darm taken out bc It was iron defense and I just had to lose.

lastly, in the future, please actually have inclusive surveys for the community instead of just the tour circle jerk. sometimes they may align but relying on the tour circle jerk alone is a sure-fire way to get negative value information a good portion of the time. anyway, yes. we all know it's going to be banned. there is not a single competent reason to keep it here
First of all, my stance is things should almost never be quickbanned. The community is the one who should decide what stays and what goes, not a select group of people. Even if it's presumably an obvious result, we shouldn't just up and decide to do things how we want. Things aren't always that obvious. I really don't think your guess for a ban % is accurate, but who knows, I could be wrong. I don't have anything to base it off of other than the survey, which is, as I said before, not representative of the whole playerbase.

Secondly, your post is insanely presumptuous and flat out wrong. In fact you probably didn't even read my post.

Please note we did not use this to completely dictate things, as we're more than aware this is not a complete and conclusive survey representing what the playerbase thinks and feels. However, this was the most qualified and readily available playerbase we could easily survey, so we decided it would be a wise idea to conduct one. In the future, we'll look for ways to be far more inclusive with these types of surveys, but please keep in mind they are not the end-all be-all.
Since then I've been discussing with some people to develop a way to mass PM people on PS! a link to the survey and asking them to fill it out. We would include a certain amount of the top of the ladder and they'd receive the PM when they next log in. We didn't have an easy way to contact people to take part in a survey at the moment; I brought up to include an announcement post of this survey and say "if you're top X00 on ladder, PM me proof and I'll link you the survey", but ultimately we figured it wouldn't really gain much attention. Not a bunch of people check Smogon actively, especially a specific subforum post that won't get publicity. We decided, for now, to just go ahead with what was easily accessible and conduct a more inclusive one in the future, which, again, was said in the post if you cared to read it. The survey was very obviously not inclusive and I said so and made it clear it's not representative of the playerbase because it's only a select chunk.

Third, if you wanna talk about a waste of time, responding to this post sure as hell is one. What does your post add exactly? Your post 1) complains about us not deciding something on our own and 2) complains about us not being inclusive enough despite doing something inclusive we haven't done before and explicitly saying we're going to make it even more inclusive. Your post is contradictory and playing off your opinions as facts with the sole intention of chirping.

I've been doing this a while and am very well aware that I've been wrong multiple times. I'm not paid to do this and I'm not going to dedicate a substantial amount of time into this, but I'm simply trying to do what I think is best. You can think what you want, but I don't have an ulterior motives to a test or the survey. In fact, I've proposed making tiering far more community driven than what it is now. If you'd like to offer any useful criticism, I'm more than open to discuss it, but don't derail the thread with this, especially when you clearly haven't bothered to think about anything but your own opinion.
 
One Pokemon I'd like to bring up as a check to Magearna is Chandelure.

:ss/chandelure:

This guy has 60/90/90 bulk, which is mediocre on paper, but it resists both of Mag's STABs and has an insane 145 Special Attack + STAB SE damage on Mag. It will kill a fully invested Magearna at +1 SpD:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Magearna: 362-428 (99.4 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

However, before you slap the ghost lamp on every team that lacks something that can pressure Magearna, keep in mind that it will outspeed you after a Shift Gear under most occasions and after a Calm Mind or Soul-Heart boost it's a roll to OHKO you with Shadow Ball:

+1 0 SpA Magearna Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

If Chandelure takes any chip at all it's going to die to a Shadow Ball from an uninvested Mag, and it can't switch into a Fleur Cannon with any sort of investment, so Chandelure can't reliably switch in to any Magearna, regardless of whether they carry Shadow Ball or not. As such, I think it is safe to say that Chandelure is a check but not a reliable counter to Magearna.
 
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Plenty of steel types can soft check mag. The fact aegislash (a great counter) hasn’t even been tried is probably telling that not every option has been explored.

I think this suspect is premature, and thus am leaning towards the side of no ban, though a suspect down the line is for sure in order.
 
Imo Mag should have been quick banned perhaps with Cinderace "Melmetal'd" and Urshifu suspect tested as it's the only one people seem on the fence about. Suspect testing Mag is just the longest possible route to the destination we all expect. Dugtrio lived in the meta far longer than it had any right to especially when it has a history of bans and a consensus in the community that it shouldn't be in OU. Suspect testing Mag when everyone agrees it's broken kind of burns time that could be spent on more iffy bans like Cinder and Fistbear.

I generally prefer tests over quick bans especially when I think of how it looks to non-Smogoners. What sounds better: The community voted. Or a shadow council of Smogon elites voted. However when the community's concensus is clear and there are a bunch of other suspects... maybe a quick ban would have been better.


Also I ran Fling Light Ball Blissey, Sp def Steelix, and sp def NP RotomH and managed to lose a game because it clicked Iron Defense against Steelix. This shit needs to go.

That said I think we heard all the pro ban arguments 500 times. Does anyone have a good pro OU opinion that doesn't involve AV Chandelure or Fling Blissey?
 
Basically all of the common steel types such as Zone/Ferro/Corvi lose to its Electric + Fighting coverage which the AV set and Trick set can both run. Also keep in mind that coming in as a check means Magearna has already killed something and is currently boosted due to Soul-Heart. The only steel type that can really check it in that situation is Excadrill and even thats getting OHKO'd by stored sets after enough boosts.

Its not that Aegislash hasn't been tried, its just a terrible mon for this meta. You have pokemon like Cinderace and Darkfu defining the metagame, and pokemon like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon rising to try and deal with them. You also have pokemon like Blissey/Chansey now in the game after the recent DLC patch which makes using specs nowhere near as threatening as it once was, and with the abundance of rocky helmet users and tanks to deal with and wear down Physical sets, you have a mon that just isn't good currently. Not to mention that Aegislash just gets volt switched on by 2/3 sets and if its ID + CM you don't even beat Magearna switching in. Your best hope would be to setup SDs along it doing IDs and pray your first shadow claw crits or else you have 60/50 bulk dealing a boosted Stored Power.

This Magearna Suspect doesn't feel premature at all imo, nothing about how broken and unhealthy it currently is, is going to change until potentially DLC2 at the soonest, and while i doubt it will ever be re-tested, there is always that possibility if the situation allows it. I have yet to see any reason why keeping Magearna would be in the best interests of our meta, and while I can understand this being a suspect test, I don't think many would have complained if this was just Qbanned and having something else be suspected in this timeframe instead.
 
Plenty of steel types can soft check mag. The fact aegislash (a great counter) hasn’t even been tried is probably telling that not every option has been explored.

I think this suspect is premature, and thus am leaning towards the side of no ban, though a suspect down the line is for sure in order.
Steels you say, eh? Let's run through everyone single one in OU and see if steels are truly an amazing answer to Mag. First, Ferro. Ferro loses to getting predicted to switch in and if hit by specs aura sphere it fucking dies.

Next, Drill. Drill is one consistent check to most Mag sets I'll give you that. Except for one. Scarf. Or Trick Room but it's niche. Or if it's already used shift gear... it gets hit by Aura Sphere and dies.

Okay, time for Bish! What would Bish do to Mag lmao

Next up, Zone. Maybe it would work if hp fire still existed... yeah it dies to aura sphere.

Okay, now for the finale! How does Aegi do? It can't be hit by the usual sphere, so it looks like we have a winner! But wait, if Aegi starts becoming a rampant Mag check, Mag will just run Shadow Ball... and you can see where this is going.

In conclusion, almost no steel is safe (I'm counting Aegi and Drill as 1/2 of a check each). There's probably one rando lower tier mon that completely counters it but that beyond the point. (This is some satire, so don't take it too seriously.)

Edit: Ohhh yeah corv exists but if predicted takes upwards of 50 from volt so is it winning son? No it's not
 
I generally play national dex but I‘be played a decent amount of gen 8 OU post DLC. I’m not the most knowledgeable about this meta though so bear with me lol.
I think Mag has to go..mainly because it’s more or less a big fish in a small pond. The OU power level is at the lowest it’s been in generations with no Z-Moves or Megas. A set like Specs Mag would have been trash last gen, since common mons like scarf Lando or Rocks Chomp could easily outspeed it and OHKO it. There just aren’t that many fast, strong mons in the metagame that can threaten it out, and this allows Mag to come in without recourse and fire off powerful attacks or cripple a wall with trick. Let’s not forget how devastating it’s Iron Defense set is either.. the aforementioned power level drop means there’s practically nothing in the meta that can hit it hard enough to deter it from setting up.
I also think the Dexit attributed to a lot of Pokémon that would be balanced in gen 7 being too much for this meta. A mon like Cinderace more than likely would have been UU last gen even if boots existed, as its base attack stat is really nothing to write home about. The opportunity cost is very low in this meta due to the lack of Z Moves, meaning that Cinder gets the extra durability at really no penalty. Mag may be balanced in a meta where Tran Chomp and Lando exist, but as of right now, it’s pretty broken so I think it needs to be banned now and maybe retested later after another DLC or two.
 
Plenty of steel types can soft check mag. The fact aegislash (a great counter) hasn’t even been tried is probably telling that not every option has been explored.

I think this suspect is premature, and thus am leaning towards the side of no ban, though a suspect down the line is for sure in order.
While I can see where you're coming from, The Meta-game Isn't Exactly going to say "OH CRAP, THIS STEEL TYPE NEEDS TO BE BANNED" to [Most] Steel Types, Unless If The Steel Type in question is Magearna, Because The Problem is that Most Steel Types Fall Victim To The Good Fire Types (Cinderace, Volcarona, and Rotom-Heat), The Bear That [Nearly] Everyone Can't Bear, Urshifu , And The Good Ground Types (ExcaDrill And Hippowdon).

Now Sure It Might Sound like I'm Contradicting Myself, But Magearna Is Good because it can make up for those Weaknesses (Sidenote: Fighting Typed Moves are NOT a Weakness to Magearna) Because it can run a Choice-Specs Set, a Choice-Scarf Set, And a Set-up Sweeper set and anyone could get good Use out of it (Provided that the team is good too)

Also, I'm Pretty sure that it has been tried before, Source: The Viabillity Ranking Both Pre-DLC and Post-DLC. But Not As a Specific Counter Because Why Would Anyone want a Specific counter to one Pokemon when they could counter multiple Pokemon In one Pokemon?

Also Also, Aegislash isn't as Good as Magearna Because it has a weakness to Fire, But now it also has to deal with Dark and Ghost Types, because it has Ghost on it, the weaknesses I Mentioned are Pretty Common in OU right now
 
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While I can see where you're coming from, The Meta-game Isn't Exactly going to say "OH CRAP, THIS STEEL TYPE NEEDS TO BE BANNED" to [Most] Steel Types, Unless If The Steel Type in question is :Magearna:, Because The Problem is that Most Steel Types Fall Victim To The Good Fire Types (:Cinderace:, :Volcarona:, and :Rotom-Heat:), The Bear That [Nearly] Everyone Can't Bear, :Urshifu: , And The Good Ground Types (:ExcaDrill: And :Hippowdon:).

Now Sure It Might Sound like I'm Contradicting Myself, But :Magearna: Is Good because it can make up for those Weaknesses (Sidenote: Fighting Typed Moves are NOT a Weakness to :Magearna:) Because it can run a :Choice-Specs: Set, a :Choice-Scarf: Set, And a Set-up Sweeper set and anyone could get good Use out of it (Provided that the team is good too)

Also, I'm Pretty sure that it has been tried before, Source: The Viabillity Ranking Both Pre-DLC and Post-DLC. But Not As a Specific Counter Because Why Would Anyone want a Specific counter to one Pokemon when they could counter multiple Pokemon In one Pokemon?

Also Also, :Aegislash: isn't as Good as :Magearna: Because it has a weakness to Fire, But now it also has to deal with Dark and Ghost Types, because it has Ghost on it, the weaknesses I Mentioned are Pretty Common in OU right now
Aegi can sponge any attack from non shadow ball variants, and by conceding a coverage move for shadow ball mag leaves itself vulnerable to other checks. Specs really can’t fit it on the set, and aegislash can easily run a specs set to soak trick.

I would recommend aegislash to anyone trying to get reqs to vote, if they feel msg is a problem.

Steels you say, eh? Let's run through everyone single one in OU and see if steels are truly an amazing answer to Mag. First, Ferro. Ferro loses to getting predicted to switch in and if hit by specs aura sphere it fucking dies.

Next, Drill. Drill is one consistent check to most Mag sets I'll give you that. Except for one. Scarf. Or Trick Room but it's niche. Or if it's already used shift gear... it gets hit by Aura Sphere and dies.

Okay, time for Bish! What would Bish do to Mag lmao

Next up, Zone. Maybe it would work if hp fire still existed... yeah it dies to aura sphere.

Okay, now for the finale! How does Aegi do? It can't be hit by the usual sphere, so it looks like we have a winner! But wait, if Aegi starts becoming a rampant Mag check, Mag will just run Shadow Ball... and you can see where this is going.

In conclusion, almost no steel is safe (I'm counting Aegi and Drill as 1/2 of a check each). There's probably one rando lower tier mon that completely counters it but that beyond the point. (This is some satire, so don't take it too seriously.)

Edit: Ohhh yeah corv exists but if predicted takes upwards of 50 from volt so is it winning son? No it's not
If mag was forced to run shadow ball, the concessions it would have to make would leave it easily walled by other facets of the metagame. It’s the same story with drill as well. Conceding coverage to run aura sphere or focus blast for exca leaves it vulnerable to other checks and counters.

This might still seem inadequate, since running two pokes just to not crumple to one is unhealthy, to which I agree. But if we consider mag to have three sets, the fighting coverage ones, the ghost coverage ones, and the standard coverage sets, we have roughly three options. Bar any absurd combination of ghost and fighting coverage (which would severely gimp mags potential to break much of anything), both exca and aegislash counter two of of these three coverage combinations making it statistically in the drill/aegislash users favor to stay in.

This is of course an oversimplification of things, as switching (especially from volt-switch) can muddy up the whole theory, and having only a handful of true counters to even half of the viable sets may prove too restraining on team building. That all being said, the fact I see less AV mag, Rotom-H, Exca, and aegislash to check this threat of setup/specs magearna makes me want to give the metagame more time to develop a natural answer.
 
Aegi can sponge any attack from non shadow ball variants, and by conceding a coverage move for shadow ball mag leaves itself vulnerable to other checks. Specs really can’t fit it on the set, and aegislash can easily run a specs set to soak trick.

I would recommend aegislash to anyone trying to get reqs to vote, if they feel msg is a problem.



If mag was forced to run shadow ball, the concessions it would have to make would leave it easily walled by other facets of the metagame. It’s the same story with drill as well. Conceding coverage to run aura sphere or focus blast for exca leaves it vulnerable to other checks and counters.

This might still seem inadequate, since running two pokes just to not crumple to one is unhealthy, to which I agree. But if we consider mag to have three sets, the fighting coverage ones, the ghost coverage ones, and the standard coverage sets, we have roughly three options. Bar any absurd combination of ghost and fighting coverage (which would severely gimp mags potential to break much of anything), both exca and aegislash counter two of of these three coverage combinations making it statistically in the drill/aegislash users favor to stay in.

This is of course an oversimplification of things, as switching (especially from volt-switch) can muddy up the whole theory, and having only a handful of true counters to even half of the viable sets may prove too restraining on team building. That all being said, the fact I see less AV mag, Rotom-H, Exca, and aegislash to check this threat of setup/specs magearna makes me want to give the metagame more time to develop a natural answer.
This time, let's break down the post piece by piece (nothing personal, just like to respond to a response).

First paragraph: I was only saying Mag should run shadow ball if Aegi gets out of hand as a Mag check, to the levels of Toad being a Vish check. However, I'm not encouraging anyone to run shadow ball unless they have a ghost weakness already on their team. However, the fact that it could is the problem. The unpredictability of Mag leaves any check shaking knowing the opponent might have an answer to them, leaving the rest of their team weak to Mag and allows it to clean up. I like using aura sphere specs Mag over trick due to personal preference. Some Drill get caught trying to switch in and die.

Second paragraph: You say Mag has three sets, but those are just variations of one set being Specs lmao. Drill/Aegi does sound interesting though... until you factor in Volting on the Aegi and taking momentum from there.

Third paragraph: Ah you do acknowledge volt good. Also I see a bunch of Heattom, especially on stall. The lack of mentioning scarf killing drill is weird though, can definitely catch an unsuspecting Drill by surprise, dismantling the Drill Aegi core. Also what do you mean by seeing less av Mags? The set isn't used due to the current meta and how offensive sets put in more work a lot of the time. That shouldn't be a reason against Mag being banned, however.

Anyway, put way to much time into this response post that nobody will read the whole way through. But I want to say your response is put together very well and had me for a bit. I'm now going to stop and try to get reqs...
 
This time, let's break down the post piece by piece (nothing personal, just like to respond to a response).

Second paragraph: You say Mag has three sets, but those are just variations of one set being Specs lmao. Drill/Aegi does sound interesting though... until you factor in Volting on the Aegi and taking momentum from there.
hate to nitpick, and it might have been poor wording on my part, but I did not say mag had three sets. I was eluding more to the different coverage combinations. Mag on every set has three options for coverage on the fourth move, and I was talking about the three coverage options on the fourth move as opposed to entire sets in general.

As I said in my post, it is an oversimplification of things. although in my defense, any set that runs both aura sphere, shadow ball, and moves to hit both toxapex and Fire types is exceedingly rare and unviable.

My point was this: by running hard mag answers like exca and aegi, you either have a hard answer, and if they have a coverage move for your answer mag is probably wallable with a more traditional defensive poke. And since this divide and conquer strategy hasn’t been prevalent in my games, I was a fan of pushing the suspect for these strategies to be evaluated and refined before making the final verdict.

As for the rest of your points, they’re all valid and relevant to the suspect. I have nothing else to say about them.
 
Hey so didn’t read every word of the thread but gathered most people’s arguments. I don’t know if I’m pro-ban or not yet -not even sure if I want to work to get reqs- but one thing I haven’t heard being discussed in really any of the many posts dismissing counters to Magearna is: Magearna.

The AV set is a hard counter to Specs and Shift Gear + 3 attacks. It’s shakier against CM varients but can in many cases wear them down with Iron Head. If Specs is the most “broken” set then AV Mag can take a few Fleur Cannons, force it out, and you can pivot out. It is difficult to bring the Specs set in against offensive teams as it can’t take too many Wicked Blows, Fusion Bolts, etc. Having AV Mag allows you to counter Specs when it does come in for free.

Yes, Specs Mag can just pivot out with Volt Switch and it doesn’t pose the biggest threat without any SpA EVs but it should be part of the conversation, even though it’s not perfect. And ultimately the biggest downside to running AV Mag imo is not being able to run an offensive set.
 
Hey so didn’t read every word of the thread but gathered most people’s arguments. I don’t know if I’m pro-ban or not yet -not even sure if I want to work to get reqs- but one thing I haven’t heard being discussed in really any of the many posts dismissing counters to Magearna is: Magearna.

The AV set is a hard counter to Specs and Shift Gear + 3 attacks. It’s shakier against CM varients but can in many cases wear them down with Iron Head. If Specs is the most “broken” set then AV Mag can take a few Fleur Cannons, force it out, and you can pivot out. It is difficult to bring the Specs set in against offensive teams as it can’t take too many Wicked Blows, Fusion Bolts, etc. Having AV Mag allows you to counter Specs when it does come in for free.

Yes, Specs Mag can just pivot out with Volt Switch and it doesn’t pose the biggest threat without any SpA EVs but it should be part of the conversation, even though it’s not perfect. And ultimately the biggest downside to running AV Mag imo is not being able to run an offensive set.
Lmao, that's just broken checking broken. A mon being it's own best check definitely seems unhealthy
 

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Please don't use an overabundance of sprites of Pokemon to replace words in your post. It makes it very hard to follow your post and may also cause lag for mobile users. I edited the above post, but in the future we'll probably just delete posts that use too many sprites as it is a lot of effort to replace them.
This goes for this thread too; please use sprites aptly and don't use them to replace every single word where the opportunity presents itself. It makes it seriously hard to follow your post.

(also don't capitalize every other word please. usage of the most basic of basic grammar rules is something I believe we can reasonably expect from eachother)
 
As a frequent user of Magearna myself, I understand how much of a menace it is to the current metagame. With only having Chansey, Blissey, and Amoonguss as the common go-to walls to it, and the fact that the three can be severely crippled with a Trick, makes Magearna basically almost unbeatable when used by a good player on a good team. Although the setup sweeper variants aren't as broken as one might think, it's the Choice Specs set that brings home the bacon when used properly. I've already finished getting my requirements myself, and ironically I used Magearna to climb up the ladder. I can definitely say that it just BREAKS AND CRIPPLES EVERYTHING. With an insanely wide movepool, a variety of sets, a very good special attack stat, decent defenses, a very defensive typing, and a reasonable speed stat, this thing is a monster and actually impacts teambuilding on almost the same level as how Dracovish did the same to the metagame before, making Seismitoad jump from lower tiers to OU just to beat it. Because of Magearna, teambuilding has become stale, but not as stale as the time before the Dracovish ban. I will be posting my requirements for proof (account is OUTU Crim454). In conclusion, Magearna should be banned.

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Mage has been one of my favorite Pokémon since Gen 7 and being a habitual rain user it finds its way onto most of my teams. Having tried all sets (Specs, both Double Dancers, CM PS, AV), I still can’t help but feel like it is simply a solid S tier OU Pokemon. When played correctly, it’s quite a menace in the late game. However, I feel as though “broken” is reserved for placing your opponent in such a disadvantage just by the use of the suspect in question. I’ve been expecting Magearna to put in much more work than it does. It doesn’t seem like everyone is prepping for it specifically as a lot of the checks / switching are high tier mons in their own right (cinder, Volc, Exca, Blobs, Pex, etc).
 
It's pretty obvious that Mag is (deservedly) going up to the great banlist in the sky. But I just wanted to make something utterly 100% clear.

Gen 8 Magearna bears no resemblance to Gen 7 Magearna. Not even a little bit.

Looking at the 2019/10 top ladder usage stats (the last full month of Gen 7 play), far and away Magearna's most common set was Assault Vest, with 44% of Magearna holding that item. Assault Vest is currently regarded as suboptimal. The next most common item was Fairum Z at 15%, an item that no longer exists. Its top 5 moves in order (clearly skewed by the AV set) were Fleur Cannon, Volt Switch, Beam, Bolt, and Iron Head. Who would run Iron Head on Magearna right now? Two moves which no longer exist, Hidden Power Fire and Heart Swap, got 16% and 9% usage respectively. Its top 4 "teammates" , or Pokemon whose usage spiked when only considering teams running it, were Lando-T, Mega Medicham, Rotom-W and Kartana. 3/4 of those no longer exist, and the other is UU.

And that's all before you consider the moves it has gained. Stored Power, Draining Kiss, Iron Defence and Trick have all massively changed how Magearna is played. Magearna in Gen 8 is not a top Gen 7 OU mon breaking teams at a lower power level. It is a totally different beast. It is no longer ever run as a defensive pivot. If you had referred to Magearna as a breaker in Gen 7 or Choiced it, you would have been laughed at. It can no longer rely on Z-moves to kickstart sweeps. Shift Gear 3 Attacks is completely dead as a set, whereas at one point last gen it was Magearna's calling card set.

So don't make the mistake of comparing Magearna this gen to Magearna last gen. Magearna by the end of last gen was an OU top defensive pivot that was capable of running sweeping sets. Magearna this gen is an obscenely strong breaker, which can also run bulky or speedy sweeping sets to carve through teams. And it's totally Uber level.
 
I'd like to throw out some calcs and a couple of other observations that shows how potent Double Dance sets are.

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 205-241 (51.2 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This BP is representative of 3 Shift Gears and a Soul-Heart boost. Now this may be a TON of boosts, but in the 5 games that I've gotten in for reqs so far (lol this is gonna take fucking forever) I've gotten these boosts in 3 of the 5 games. It's especially easy if their Cinderace is dead or not on the field when I'm amassing boosts and even than it OHKOs with Stored Power after a few boosts and goes on a Soul-Heart frenzy:

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 362-426 (120.2 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's representative of 2 Shift Gears and a Soul-Heart boost.

Now, obviously, Dark types exist, so those are good counters, right? Wrong. The Double Dance sets I run normally carry CM/Shift Gear/Stored Power/Draining Kiss, and I've seen this set used by others as well. Magearna not only kills these Dark types hard but also regains health and gets that sweet +1 SpAtk. Let's look at Umbreon, arguably the bulkiest Dark-type mon with a killer 130 SpDef and 95 HP:

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

3HKO. At +2?

+2 252+ SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Well this guy just nae naes on the literal bulkiest Dark type ever.

Steel types? Look at the Corv calc, bub. Everything with higher bulk just can't touch Mag bar Mag itself and maybe Jirachi or is Ubers.

The Specs set is very clearly the best set to run on Mag but people who switch in expecting Specs and get Shift Geared on are definitely screwed if they don't have Haze or Whirlwind on their mons.
 
Easily one of the most broken mons to grace OU in a long time. I don’t think there is much to really add to the conversation here because it seems fairly straightforward - it can do anything on almost any team style really well. I’m of the opinion that this test is a a lopsided waste of time (similar to Dracovish) but I understand TLs need to thread a needle between community engagement and urgency in fixing shitty metas. I think the proposed sitewide surveys are a terrific idea, I’m excited for Mag to be banned to get to more interesting (and less clear cut) suspects.
 
Easily one of the most broken mons to grace OU in a long time. I don’t think there is much to really add to the conversation here because it seems fairly straightforward - it can do anything on almost any team style really well. I’m of the opinion that this test is a a lopsided waste of time (similar to Dracovish) but I understand TLs need to thread a needle between community engagement and less shitty meta-development. I think the proposed sitewide surveys are a terrific idea, I’m excited for Mag to be banned to get to more interesting (and less clear cut) suspects.
Also, I'd like to add that in gameplay Mag is pretty much nothing like Vish. Vish just clicked one move and profited but Mag's unpredictability is one of the keys to its success.
 
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