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I'm personally on board with discussion (emphasis on just discussion for the time being) about Toxapex.
I find it to be oppressive in a fashion that we are not accustom to, which makes it harder to address in a tiering context. The thing is that we should not shy away from things that are different from our norms. Toxapex is excruciatingly painful for just about any offensive Pokemon to pivot into -- the combined risks of Knock/Burn/Poison is frightening, but yet it comes in repeatedly, oftentimes without much punishment thanks to Regenerator and superb bulk. It virtually mandates a certain status absorber on balance builds (i.e: your own Toxapex, Teleport Slowbro, or Clefable, especially with Teleport) and can force stalemates very easily.
I do not know if I necessarily want to ban Toxapex, but in a metagame void of many common Toxapex abusers from last generation (Poison Heal Gliscor, Magma Storm Heatran, Trace Mega Alakazam, and the entire concept of Z moves to name some), it becomes increasingly evident that Toxapex is able to stunt progress many Pokemon and cores try to generate and forces specific conventions in both play and building that restrict us. We should be able to examine how it impacts the tier similarly to offensive Pokemon; that is not saying it IS the problem or broken, but it is saying that we should not ignore it simply because it is a defensive Pokemon. Defensive Pokemon can be broken.
I feel like right now Magearna (current suspect) and Cinderace (something I personally believe is broken and may need to be looked at in the future) are more pressing, but we should continue to examine Toxapex's impact on the metagame and accept the fact that we may have to act on a defensive Pokemon in the future if what we're currently seeing continues into the future.
I'm no ladder expert, but I see that Iron Defense + Calm Mind Magearna is picking up traction. Everyone is saying Mag is busted and will be banned, and I second that (so I'm not gonna talk too much about its Specs set). But between Specs and ID + CM, it's aaaabsolutely bonkers. I'm actually starting to think ID sets are just as strong as Specs. They seem to set up on everything. ID completely nullifies some of Magearna's best checks, like Cinder and Excadrill. I mean just look at these calcs:
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +2 248 HP / 136+ Def Magearna: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- 94.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. +2 248 HP / 136+ Def Magearna: 120-144 (33 - 39.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can basically just sponge the hit and click ID for a second time. Then their attacks aren't doing scratch and you can continue to boost up, recover with Draining Kiss, and steamroll through their team.
I've been having really good success with Mag on Rain (only around the 1400 mark at the moment but crushing most things) because strong fire attacks are one of the only ways to threaten her out. And if you get a CM or ID on the right switch, and have rain still up, stuff like Cinder and Volc look even more pathetic.
The fact Magearna can use some of its 'best checks' as setup fodder, with minimal effort, is absurd. I will say though, one of the best answers to this set seems to be Specs Mag herself, because she can just click Trick and you really can't get enough boosts off to challenge her. But you can kinda play around that and just let something else on your team get Tricked. Then their Mag doesn't have Specs anymore and your Mag lives to sweep another day. You just bring her in later on the like 80% of their team she can set up against and go to town.
Maybe this post belongs in the suspect thread, but if anybody hasn't used the ID set yet, here it is. Enjoy it while it lasts:
Magearna @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 16 SpD / 108 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
Toxapex has one set, known as The Pex. There is nothing wrong with that at all, many defensive Pokemon have only one set and are perfectly fine with that. It tends to have some kind of customised EV spread depending on the team, but it always runs 248 or 252 HP with the rest in bulk in some combination.
The moveset always starts Scald, as it make Pex not Taunt bait while giving it a way to "pass" with a safe move, and threaten physical attackers.
Recover is the next mandatory move, letting Pex wall reliably.
The 3rd slot is the "Poison slot". It is most often given to Toxic Spikes, but Toxic and occasionally Baneful Bunker are good choices also. Toxic Spikes is a key part of what makes Pex so splashable, as there is a distinct lack of other good users of the move, and it allows Pex to make progress while walling a threat, being walled itself, or forcing a switch despite having no offensive capability. Toxic lets Pex status things in front of it without relying on Scald, and is often used with Knock Off to compensate the lack of Haze, putting setup sweepers on a timer. Baneful Bunker is a Protect clone that poisons opponents making contact. It is mostly used so Pex can punish certain physical attackers like Cinderace or Dracovish (pre ban) before letting a teammate deal with the opposition it cannot.
The last slot is given to a utility move. Haze is one of Pex's trump cards over most walls, as it makes it almost impossible for setup-heavy teams to break Pex. Knock Off is a move that is everywhere, and Pex uses it very well indeed. Trying to overwhelm Pex with Choice-boosted moves is very risky when you might just lose that Choice Item. You can mix-and-match to an extent as well, Scald/Recover/Haze/Knock Off works well, as does Scald/Recover/Toxic Spikes/Toxic on the right team.
Toxapex's Ability is always Regenerator.
Toxapex's item is almost always Black Sludge, as it lets Pex slowly regain health while clicking Scald or neuters burns. It also deters Trick, as any non-Poison that steals that item takes damage every turn. Heavy-Duty-Boots is another option to keep health when switching into hazards repeatedly.
With all that established if you didn't know it already, let's look at what this means in practice. Toxapex is harder to switch into than some UUBL breakers.
Toxapex is one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the game. Despite its only attacking move hitting nothing remotely bulky for any notable damage unless it is Super Effective, Toxapex has an unending supply of ways to punish almost anything you might switch into it. Scald burns, Toxic and Knock Off are things nothing wants to take. Not to mention the mon you switch into it actually has to be able to beat it, a monumental task for anything that isn't a dedicated breaker or doesn't know Leech Seed. Even Super Effective moves struggle to break it unless delivered STABed or Choiced, and basically nothing in the game short of Banded Diggersby can OHKO it from full. Many breakers have to run Psychic or Ground coverage moves for no other reason than 2HKOing Toxapex. Toxapex is almost impossible to keep out of a game.
Even if you do weaken a Pex, it can switch out and use Regenerator to come back stronger. A Toxapex with Black Sludge intact just has to switch in, Recover, and switch out to restore 23/24ths of its health! Given the list of mons it can switch in on and the fact it will almost never be below 1/3 health, Toxapex can find many opportunities to pivot its way back into the game using Regenerator. So unless your breaker actually KOs it, The Pex will return. And with its many ways to deter setup, you can forget that as a means of KOing it. So all that remains is to try and cripple it. Toxapex is absurdly hard to cripple.
But that runs into a few massive issues. As a Poison-type, Toxapex cannot be Poisoned. It is neutral to Stealth Rock and takes Spikes damage, but Regenerator insures it against this, as it still goes net positive health from 3 Spikes and Rocks if its Black Sludge is intact. Crippling it with the ever-present Trick can limit its influence, but the Tricker receives its Black Sludge, which cripples it in turn unless it is Clefable. Even if you try for PP stalling Recover, Regenerator still gives plenty of recovery to Pex, and Haze has 48 PP to burn. Burns and Knock Off together can slowly wear it down, but nothing likes trading status with Toxapex, and it still has more longevity than half the game itemless and burned. As a Toxic Spikes setter, Toxapex is absurdly good.
Even if you resort to a status absorber like Clefable to shut it down in the short term, Toxapex can just drop a layer of Toxic Spikes. Or two, since it has more than enough bulk and recovery to deal with anything your opponent tries in the meantime. Toxic Spikes can cripple teams of all kinds. Hyper Offense teams get their sweepers put on a timer and often have no way to remove it. Balanced teams have to weigh up the risks of sending their hazard remover into Toxapex. Steels take Scalds and risk burns, Boots mons risk Knock Off, others just really, really don't like Poison. And of course, very few of them can threaten Toxapex in any way beyond U-turning in something else. But Toxapex is slower than most U-turners, so that doesn't solve the issues of switching into Pex either. Toxapex is often the best switch-in to Toxapex.
There are only two mons that don't mind anything Toxapex does and threaten it back. The first is Reuniclus, with the combined powers of Magic Guard, STAB and speed creep. The other... Is an opposing Pex. Remember how I said that Burn+Knock Off=annoyed Pex? Guess which mon is one of the best in the business at dishing out that combo. Remember how I said that hazard removers struggle to switch into Toxapex to remove its Toxic Spikes? There's another way of removing them: switching in a grounded Poison type. The only two Poison types in OU are Amoonguss, who loses hilariously hard against Pex in the long run, and The Pex itself. So this tends to lead to "Pex wars" where each player trades Knock Offs between two Pexs if they have it, and then plays chicken with Scald burns, trying to avoid anything else on their team getting crippled while using the fewest Recovers possible, aiming to get a breaker in on a Recover or Haze. The "winner" tends to be either the Pex that gets up Tspikes and cripples something on an attempt to remove them, or in extreme cases, the one that runs out of Scalds or Recovers first, which can lead to both players Hazing repeatedly to "pass".
With all that doom and gloom, what are Pex's answers? Taunt
This is the big one. Taunt stops Toxapex using any move bar Scald or Knock Off, which often forces it out. The main challenge is having Taunt on a mon that doesn't fear Scald and actually threatens Toxapex. Good Pokemon that fit this criteria include Mew (who just stacks hazards in its face and abuses Synchronise), a Corviknight that does not fear a burn (who loses out on an attack by doing so, but can also remove Tspikes), a Mandibuzz who does not fear Knock Off (hates losing boots and getting burned, but can also clear Tspikes) and certain others like Gengar and Gyarados who can give up coverage to carry it. Breakers with Super Effective STAB
If given a free switch into Toxapex, more than a few Pokemon can hurt it, some quite badly. But the issue is getting that free switch. Bar Teleport from Clefable, which risks Toxic Spikes, there are no Pokemon that can safely switch into Pex and get off that crucial slow pivot. Which means that nothing is getting in on Pex without chancing a Scald burn or taking a Knock or Toxic. Status Absorbers
The aforementioned Reuniclus and Clefable, as well as Alakazam, fear nothing from Toxapex bar Knock Off. However, Zam dislikes losing its item and Focus Sash variants have their Sash broken by Scald. Clef also does little to Pex back if not carrying Life Orb and Thunderbolt (and thus being prone to Knock Off) or Trick, allowing Pex to set Toxic Spikes in its face. Poison and Steel types that absorb Poison dislike to take Scald burns, and very few of them can match Pex for longevity if trading status. One notable example of these is Ferrothorn, who can hit Pex with Leech Seed and punish Knock Off with Iron Barbs, as well as setting Spikes to hinder Pex's pivoting. However, Ferrothorn is greatly tamed by burns and has no reliable recovery move, which, in combination with allied hazard removal, allows Pex to outlast the Lord of 1000 Sources of Chip in longer games.
So, with all that said and done, let me put Toxapex into terms that standard tiering policy can understand. It is often its own best check, and the few counters it has are amplified in usage and viability by being able to switch into it. It heavily centralises the tier's breakers by invalidating every single one that cannot break it, and forcing others to devote moveslots to beating it (Zen Headbutt Cinderace is the obvious one, but debatably others include Taunt CM Keldeo, Earthquake Gyarados, Discharge Rotom-H etc). The primary reason I have heard for why it is not under tiering scrutiny is a literal acceptance of Broken Checks Broken: "It does more good for the tier than harm by stopping breakers". I am very curious as to the opinions of any who think Toxapex deserves a place in the OU tier.
Separating this as it is my personal opinion. I think that with Dexit we have an excellent chance to de-creep OU power levels from the absurd state it was in last gen, where UUBL was large enough to almost be its own tier, and so many threats were "borderline broken" that no team proof against most of them was safe from being 6-0ed by a random uncommon threat. Banning Toxapex, IMO, would be a massive step in this direction. Rather than accepting 101 different breakers as "balanced" just because Toxapex soft checks the entire game, let's get rid of the crutch and see what actually needs dealing with to bring OU back to a balanced state. Let's not settle for broken checking broken this gen. And judging by tiering action thusfar, the signs are good.
On the question of Pex being broken, I've been doing a bit of observation and testing. Here is what I've concluded
1. Pex does have offensive checks, but-
Between its access to Recover and ability in Regenerator, KOing Pex basically requires a mon to have a guaranteed 2HKO on it after Black Sludge. In terms of proper OU mons, 7 are currently capable of accomplishing this without boosting: Alakazam, Excadrill, Hydreigon, Magnezone, Alolawak, Darkshifu and Zeraora. At first that seems to indicate that Pex has a bevy of solid answers, there is one factor that automatically hampers this: Scald. Should they be burned, Drill, Shifu and Raora are suddenly rendered inadequate Pex breakers, while Wak is straight up 2HKOed itself 90% of the time. As for the others, the Hydra is a safe bet, unless Pex is a rarer Specially Defensive Set, which largely blanks Dreigon without a boost. Dreigon is also reliant on Draco to get the job done, meaning that Pex can easily just pair itself with a Fairy type to sponge those hits. Functionally, Zam and Zone are the only truly reliable Pex killers, and those two do have flaws that can be easily exploited by teambuilder. You may ask yourself: "But why is so imported that a mon can do this unboosted?" Simple: Haze. While not guaranteed on Pex, Haze is a viable option for it and means that the blob can just Haze away any threat that needs to boost in order to break it. Even assuming your sweeper can keep their boost, many need to resort to specific options to kill Pex.
2. Pex forces certain mons to use options that would be otherwise suboptimal.
While looking for mons that could counter Pex, I noticed a few notable moves in the usage charts. The most notable example is Volcarona running Psychic; outside of Pex, Psychic is really only useful for Kommo-o, who is usually used as a Rocker and therefore tends to take sizeable damage before Rona comes in. Other examples include NP Gengar running Thunderbolt alongside its STABs, which is useful for Pex and one other mon in Mandibuzz, Clefable, whose CM set can't break Pex unless it slots in Tbolt over more useful Fire coverage, and Cinderace, who basically has to run Zen Headbutt mainly for Pex. In addition to coverage, other sweepers and would be breakers see themselves running Taunt to shut Pex down, potentially sacrificing vital coverage. To me at least, it really speaks to Pex's defensive ability that some offensive mons are picking moves for hitting Pex over moves that would be useful against more of the meta. These two points are not to say Pex has no answers, but-
3. Many of the best mons against Pex are niche in the overall meta.
As indicated by theotherguytm, Reuniclus is a fairly reliable counter to Pex due to Magic Guard; however, that is a UU mon, as in a mon that is not considered good enough for OU by the broader player-base. That's not to say Reuniclus doesn't have it's role in OU (as its viability ranking can atest), but it is a role that generally only fits on certain teams. Sure, a little browse outside the confines of OU will showcase some notable Pex answers; Neutralizing Gas Weezing prevents Pex from simply switching out for free, Dracozolt's Bolt Beak cleanly tears through Pex, Specs Freeze Dry from Kyurem shatters even the most Specially Defensive variant and Mamoswine is Mamoswine. While I like seeing mons achieve success in a tier they normally don't inhabit, it's not exactly a great sign for the meta that some of the best Pex checks require players to use mons that aren't proper OU for a reason. Sure, Clefable is a legit OU mon that doesn't care about Pex, but without CM Tbolt it can't do anything to Pex in return.
4. The meta shifts from USUM (and the beta period) have benefited Pex at an abnormally high rate.
Compared to a lot of other mons, few have enjoyed the overall power drop more than Pex. Megas that had the extra power to stop Pex? Gone. Z Crystals that allowed normally hard-walled sweepers a free "Anti-Pex" button? Gone. Most of the OP OU mons that could naturally take on Pex? Currently illegal in Galar. So Pex was already looking to be a tier titan as SwSh cam to be. However, it has also been helped by some of this gen's decisions: the ban of Dyanamax, along with two powerful Pex breakers in Garm and Vish, has only helped Pex further by removing yet more offensive threats to it (not saying those bans shouldn't have happened, just that this is where we are now).
5. Pex has everything it could need to succeed.
Even in a vacuum, Pex seems like it was specifically designed to make competitive players cry. For starts, great bulk + reliable recovery + even more recovery thanks to Regen means this thing is naturally difficult to break. Add to that its great defensive typing, which leaves it with only 3 [2x] weaknesses and, more crucially, a Toxic immunity (unless you really want to run Salazzle) that makes wearing it down with passive chip largely unviable. However, it also has options to take care of any scenario it could face, as I have already touched on; Scald allows it to spread burns and cripple physical breakers, Knock Off allows it take items, decreasing the power of offense or putting defensive mons in a losing matchup in stall wars, Haze can be used to deny sweepers the power boost they would need to bust through its bunker, Toxic allows for consistent damage, Baneful Bunker allows it free passive recovery and TSpikes is a potentially big threat in a tier with few Poison types, basically forcing teams to run their own Pex to eliminate that threat. And if Pex ever does run into a losing matchup, it can simply switch out with a free HP boost that allows it to functionally ignore hazard chip.
With all this info, I personally feel that Pex is at least centralizing for the tier. Sure, it has countermeasures such as Taunt and- Taunt, and a few select mons that can reliably break it, but a lot of what naturally works against it are options that are chosen specifically because of its presence rather than because they naturally suit the overall meta. Which raises the question: what do we do about it? What should we do or not do? I've seen some calls for a ban, and while I would not be opposed to it, I understand that it may be hard to get the community on board. The problem with suspecting a defensive mon as opposed to an offensive mon is that it's inherently harder to explain; with a broken offensive mon, the reason why it's too much tends to be fairly self-explanatory. With a defensive mon, assessing whether it's broken requires you to consider several factors. These being:
Does counteracting this mon put an excessive strain on team building?
Do you have to devote at least one team slot specifically to breaking this one mon?
Are options that can counter this mon options that are naturally subpar in the tier?
Does breaking the mon require options that aren't naturally part of this tier?
Can counters to this mon naturally fit on various playstyles, or are they only good on certain playstyles?
The latter answer specifically means that this mon's presence is influential enough on the tier that certain playstyles may become more or less viable simply because of the one mon. Certain options might also require specific mons to be run as teammates, thereby hurting the usage of other normally good mons.
Do matches involving this mon tend to be decided or heavily influenced by mirror matches?
How often do matchups gravitate towards scenarios of mon A vs mon A? How much do mirror matchups effect the match as a whole?
Overall, is the meta better or worse off with this mon being present?
I think that asking the question of whether Pex is too much for OU will require at least moderate consideration of these factors. For now, all we can do is watch and see a). what the broader player base feels about this and b). whether Pex will continue its domination in the coming weeks. Crown Tundra may damper it a bit, but if it is deemed problematic, then it would be irresponsible to just let Pex have its way with the meta until then.
As indicated by theotherguytm, Reuniclus is a fairly reliable counter to Pex due to Magic Guard; however, that is a UU mon, as in a mon that is not considered good enough for OU by the broader player-base.
Just to add to this, Reuniclus is a regular contender for "Highest ranked mon on the VR not OU by usage". It has the unique niche of being a slow-motion wincon that smashes Pex. For instance, it was ranked A- in the USUM VR despite being only RUBL (ie: not making the usage threshold in OU or UU). It was the only Pokemon in the S and A ranks not OU by usage until Mega Latios dropped to UUBL in the final shift of the gen. It is B+ at the moment, with the only mon not OU by usage ranked higher than it being Blissey.
I would not say it's not considered good enough. More accurate would be that very few teams can actually fit it and require the unique niche it brings, but top-level players greatly value its niche in tournaments, as a wincon in longer games that beats Pex. In other words, the value of the narrow niche it provides is massive enough for it to consistently rated as a top threat to OU teams, in spite of the issues it faces actually fitting on teams and it falling flat against HO. It also benefits from Toxapex's presence as a partner as well as a victim: Toxic Spikes let it stall out threats it can't beat head-on.
On top of that if (when) Mag and Cinder are banned Urshifu will probably be the next suspect. By the time we even have a chance to look at Toxapex who knows what the meta will look like. With fewer team building restrictions the meta might just successfully adapt to Toxapex by running things like Reuniclus that can turn Pex into a liability.
On top of that if (when) Mag and Cinder are banned Urshifu will probably be the next suspect. By the time we even have a chance to look at Toxapex who knows what the meta will look like. With fewer team building restrictions the meta might just successfully adapt to Toxapex by running things like Reuniclus that can turn Pex into a liability.
I don’t think any action directed at Urshifu is a given. A lot of people don’t view it as an issue right now (see: the WCOP survey) and it also is prepared for pretty well universally. I can see it getting a suspect in the future, but it’s far from a forgone conclusion and I wouldn’t just immediately assume this timeline.
The best way to proceed is with an open mind and being willing to see what is best for the tier before we tunnel vision into a specific set of tiering actions.
I don’t think any action directed at Urshifu is a given. A lot of people don’t view it as an issue right now (see: the WCOP survey) and it also is prepared for pretty well universally. I can see it getting a suspect in the future, but it’s far from a forgone conclusion and I wouldn’t just immediately assume this timeline.
The best way to proceed is with an open mind and being willing to see what is best for the tier before we tunnel vision into a specific set of tiering actions.
Yeeeaah but we all know it's going to be suspected. If you don't want to lose a Pokemon every time it comes in your team is required to either run a physically defensive dark resist or play offensively enough that you can avoid letting it switch in. Defensive counter play is impossible without dedicating multiple slots to it. Other than Band it can also run Black Glasses and Scarf if it wants to play a different role.
It doesn't scream broken in the same way as Mag + Cinder do but probably more broken in a Dugtrio / Dracovish kind of way where people just get used to it. The team building restrictions caused by Urshifu are frankly ridiculous. Just because the meta adapts to something doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Also 75% of people in that survey stated it should either be banned or looked at in the future while nearly half want it quick banned or tested immediately. I think it's perfectly clear that a suspect test will happen eventually. And on topic of Mag + Cinder, well their fate is pretty obvious as well lol.
I'm on the tiering council and told you this was very much not a given. Starting your post with this basically implies you either did not read my post or did not take it seriously, so let me elaborate a bit more.
If you don't want to lose a Pokemon every time it comes in your team is required to either run a physically defensive dark resist or play offensively enough that you can avoid letting it switch in. Defensive counter play is impossible without dedicating multiple slots to it. Other than Band it can also run Black Glasses and Scarf if it wants to play a different role.
Considering Clefable (most commonly PDef or at least mixed Def right now) is on over half of the teams in the tier (and only getting more common thanks to the Trick sets picking up steam), cores with Amoonguss/Toxapex + Mandibuzz are super common, and pivots like Tangrowth can scout it out without taking much net damage at all, meeting these requirements to keep it in check really isn't that challenging. If you're not running one of these already, you're probably running a more offensive team, which is able to suffocate Urshifu as it is well enough. You are making it out to be something you have to go well out of your way to check when many checks and counterplay to it are already very good options in the tier. I'm not arguing that Urshifu does not impact the way we build; it has shaped the way the balanced archetype has formed, but helping influence the tier is not the same as warping teambuilding and the pool of checks and counterplay to it is quite common right now and consists of Pokemon that are good for more than just keeping Urshifu in check.
It doesn't scream broken in the same way as Mag + Cinder do but probably more broken in a Dugtrio / Dracovish kind of way where people just get used to it. The team building restrictions caused by Urshifu are frankly ridiculous. Just because the meta adapts to something doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Comparing Urshifu to a Pokemon that outright traps dozens of necessary pieces to teambuilding or a Pokemon that virtually mandated a Water immunity or Baneful Toxapex is "frankly ridiculous". You should take a step back and rethink this claim you made here. I understand concerns about it and I am not saying it should not be suspected in the future, but the logic you are applying is simply not an accurate representation of Urshifu.
Also 75% of people in that survey stated it should either be banned or looked at in the future while nearly half want it quick banned or tested immediately. I think it's perfectly clear that a suspect test will happen eventually.
Which is hilarious but considering how long it took for Dugtrio or Dracovish to be addressed when they were clearly unhealthy for the meta I guess I can see why you'd say that. I hope you take into account the views of the average player when discussing what to, and to not test.
Considering Clefable (most commonly PDef or at least mixed Def right now) is on over half of the teams in the tier (and only getting more common thanks to the Trick sets picking up steam), cores with Amoonguss/Toxapex + Mandibuzz are super common, and pivots like Tangrowth can scout it out without taking much net damage at all, meeting these requirements to keep it in check really isn't that challenging. If you're not running one of these already, you're probably running a more offensive team, which is able to suffocate Urshifu as it is well enough. You are making it out to be something you have to go well out of your way to check when many checks and counterplay to it are already very good options in the tier. I'm not arguing that Urshifu does not impact the way we build; it has shaped the way the balanced archetype has formed, but helping influence the tier is not the same as warping teambuilding and the pool of checks and counterplay to it is quite common right now and consists of Pokemon that are good for more than just keeping Urshifu in check.
So you think a meta that requires you to run a Clefable / Mandibuzz on every team isn't inherently bad? Also Tangrowth / Pex / Amoongus are all cleanly 2HKOed so while yes the dark resist + Regenerator duo generally handles it forcing this on every team greatly restricts team building. You mention 50%+ Clefable usage as though it's a good thing lol.
Comparing Urshifu to a Pokemon that outright traps dozens of necessary pieces to teambuilding or a Pokemon that virtually mandated a Water immunity or Baneful Toxapex is "frankly ridiculous". You should take a step back and rethink this claim you made here. I understand concerns about it and I am not saying it should not be suspected in the future, but the logic you are applying is simply not an accurate representation of Urshifu.
It clearly is. Dugtrio and Dracovish required extremely specific team building requirements to avoid losing Pokemon to them if they found a safe switch. No one is arguing they made the meta better.
This isn't true.
Please look into what you are talking about before posting.
Over 22% argued in favor of a quick ban right now while an additional 20% want it tested right away. Another 32% think it should be looked into in the future. Only 25% felt it wasn't broken. So almost half want it banned / tested right away and 75% think it's worth looking into in the future. Just like I said.
Which is hilarious but considering how long it took for Dugtrio or Dracovish to be addressed when they were clearly unhealthy for the meta I guess I can see why you'd say that. I hope you take into account the views of the average player when discussing what to, and to not test.
I'm sorry, but framing your post this way is disrespectful and detracts from your argument. Dugtrio suspect got postponed by the release of Pokemon Home, which is an unprecedented mid-generation tiering shift we had 0 notice of. Dracovish was tested promptly after Melmetal, which we were obligated to re-test. Both were handled promptly and your claims show that you do not understand what you are talking about. I encourage people to engage about the tier, but please consider what you are posting before going ahead and stating grievances about the tiering process.
So you think a meta that requires you to run a Clefable / Mandibuzz on every team isn't inherently bad? Also Tangrowth / Pex / Amoongus are all cleanly 2HKOed so while yes the dark resist + Regenerator duo generally handles it forcing this on every team greatly restricts team building. You mention 50%+ Clefable usage as though it's a good thing lol.
I did not say that at all with regards to your first sentence.
Perhaps Clefable or Toxapex is an issue due to their high usage and oppressive status defensively -- I am not fighting this or the fact that Clefable's place in the tier could have negative implications, but the fact that they are as common as they are means that Urshifu is not a pressing issue. I made a post above on Toxapex and I still believe it may be an issue in the future. As it stands, teams are very prepared for Urshifu and this is not changing in the immediate future.
Yes it is, read your own survey.
Over 22% argued in favor of a quick ban right now while an additional 20% want it tested right away. Another 32% think it should be looked into in the future. Only 25% felt it wasn't broken. So almost half want it banned / tested right away and 75% think it's worth looking into in the future. Just like I said.
9.7% want it quick banned, 12.3% want it to be banned and then retested, 20.6% want it suspect tested, 32.3% believe it is too soon (what I voted), and 25.2% believe it is not broken and should not be tested.
This means that a combined 42.5% want some tiering action (quickban, ban and retest, or suspect). This is far less than you indicate and in-line with what I said. 75% or more of people wanted us to look into Magearna and Cinderace, so we are looking into Magearna now and potentially Cinderace soon.
Okay, I think we're getting a tad off track here. Look, Darkshifu is definitely a divisive mon in OU, and we should certainly talk about this more at some point once we've figured out how to handle Magearna and Cinderace (Gear'll probably be banned, but we'll see).
As for the recently raised issue of Toxapex, as I previously said, I think discussion of Pex in OU involves having a much broader discussion about how to handle potentially broken defensive mons. This is because compared to suspecting an offensive mon, arguing a defensive mon is problematic inherently requires more evidence as justification. While I'm not confidant that Pex will be banned or even suspected, I feel this conversation about the potential OP-ness of defensive mons is important, at least in regards to being fair in our collective assessment or potentially establishing a more clear precedent about handling problematic defensive mons in the future. Because while not impossible to check by any means, Pex does seem to warp the tier around its existence in some respects; as I've said, Pex's defensive domination does hit a few of the same notes as reasons why offensive mons are designated as "broken". Still, answers to Pex, be it offensive mons like Magnezone or Taunt users, do exist. I admit, I'm not entirely sure as to whether I consider Pex broken or not, and so I think we could benefit from more discussion of this. Considering past scenarios that indicated a reluctance to tackle defensive mons until it was too late (ORAS Mega Sableye, anyone?), I would certainly prefer to test Pex if it is deemed broken by the players; however, I am also aware of the problems that could result from rushing into a test for Pex. Sure, I think we should try to be efficient with a suspect test if a suspect is deemed necessary, but I also acknowledge that the process of suspecting inherently takes time, both in terms of how suspect results effect future tests and because just quickbanning everything could easily lead to us throwing perfectly manageable (if admittedly annoying) mons out with the bathwater. I don't pretend I know what the best course of action for something like Pex is, but it wouldn't hurt to at least talk about it.
I'm sorry, but framing your post this way is disrespectful and detracts from your argument. Dugtrio suspect got postponed by the release of Pokemon Home, which is an unprecedented mid-generation tiering shift we had 0 notice of. Dracovish was tested promptly after Melmetal, which we were obligated to re-test. Both were handled promptly and your claims show that you do not understand what you are talking about. I encourage people to engage about the tier, but please consider what you are posting before going ahead and stating grievances about the tiering process.
Dugtrio, or more specifically Arena Trap was found to be broken in every single generation since BW. Despite nothing about the trapping mechanics changing and the overwhelming majority of the player base being in agreement it still took ~5 months and a suspect test to get rid of it. The final vote tally was almost 85% pro ban so it's not like it was a controversial ban. The fact that you guys decided to postpone it due to home is nonsensical lol.
Dracovish on the other hand forced either Water Absorb or a very bulky phys def water resist to avoid just getting run over by the scarf set. It still took 8 months to get suspected. I understand Dynamax made early gen 8 difficult but my point is Smogon often takes the longest possible route to reach the obvious destination. I don't think one single player genuinely thought Dracovish was a Pokemon that rewarded skill or that was fun. I think Smogon generally does good in terms of bans but it would be nice to see you guys quick ban or suspect test a little quicker. At the end of gen 7 there were still a handful of Pokemon that were suspect worthy.
I did not say that at all with regards to your first sentence. Perhaps Clefable or Toxapex is an issue due to their high usage and oppressive status defensively -- I am not fighting this or the fact that Clefable's place in the tier could have negative implications, but the fact that they are as common as they are means that Urshifu is not a pressing issue. I made a post above on Toxapex and I still believe it may be an issue in the future. As it stands, teams are very prepared for Urshifu and this is not changing in the immediate future.
Pex is getting high usage partially because it at least helps check the three most ban worthy Pokemon in the meta right now. Mandibuzz and Clefable are very good Pokémon in their own right but of course part of the reason they see use it to check bear. Maybe our goal should be to produce a meta that doesn't require nearly every single team to run Clef or Mandibuzz to avoid getting smashed by a Pokemon that clicks 1 button. Oh, kind of like Dracovish.
Again I'm well aware that teams can handle it but that doesn't mean this garbage fist bear makes the meta healthy or fun.
9.7% want it quick banned, 12.3% want it to be banned and then retested, 20.6% want it suspect tested, 32.3% believe it is too soon (what I voted), and 25.2% believe it is not broken and should not be tested.
This means that a combined 42.5% want some tiering action (quickban, ban and retest, or suspect). This is far less than you indicate and in-line with what I said. 75% or more of people wanted us to look into Magearna and Cinderace, so we are looking into Magearna now and potentially Cinderace soon.
42% of people either want it banned or tested immediately aka exactly what I said. Add in the 33% or so that think it's incredibly good but is too soon to be tested and you have a clear 75% that think it should be tested or looked into at some point. If you can look at those stats and not take away that Urshifu will likely be a problem in the future... I don't know man, I'm just saying past metagame trends point to this bear being an issue. We can either adapt as with early gen 8 Dracovish (or gen 7 Kartana) or make preparations for the eventual suspect test to see if the meta is better without something that can 2HKO 90% of the meta with one move.
Anyway I said all I have to say. It's clearly an oppressive Pokemon that grossly restricts team building. I'm not sure how you can look at the meta and think that after Mag and Cinder Urshifu won't be getting eyed for a test.
So, since cinder is most likely next to be suspect tested, I would like to ask if someone could provide a more detailed breakdown of why exactly its such a problem for players. Maybe because I tend to however around 1300-1400 on the ladder, I'm not seeing it being used to its fullest potential.
On paper, its very strong stat wise.
Hits hard, outspeeds most of the meta, even when adamant.
Libero gives it STAB on everything, has very good coverage.
Usually runs boots to pivot in more frequently and avoid being worn down.
Clearly a very strong pokemon, but we've had a similar pokemon in the past couple gens; greninja. It walked that fine line between broken and just really good, but even the addition of z moves and battle bond werent enough to get it banned. And it arguably had way better typing to take advantage of, on top of having spikes/t-spikes.
So why is cinder any different? Are we lacking in teambuilding options? Are people just not making the proper adjustments to account for it?
Again, might just be where I sit on the ladder personally, but I'm usually able to handle cinder well enough that I dont feel like its this huge, oppressive force that would warrant a ban.
Now dont get me wrong, it is most definitely a strong mon. I've been able to dismantle teams pretty handily with it, but its not that hard to do when the opponents best (or only) cinder answers are clef, magearna, kommo, azumaril and or corvi.
Among whom? In OU, the only three offensive mons that notably use Boots are Cinderace, Togekiss, and Volcarona. That’s not exactly enough to be a problem on the meta’s part rather than just on the part of these mons. If boots do make an offensive mon broken, then we should test the mon. It doesn’t really make sense to ban or restrict a non-exclusive item if only a few mons are really abusing it. Taking action against Boots should only be done if they prove a consistent factor in breaking mons and if it is proven that they would not be broken without Boots, which hasn’t been the case so far.
Well, it's not exactly fun when you have opponents using HDB on 1/2 their team e.g. Cinderace, Zeraora, Mandibuzz and hell even Blissey. I have seen teams with 2/3 of the mons all wearing HDB, it's kinda insane.
But yes, I guess HDB will be around for a while. New meta and everyone's just gotta adapt.
So, since cinder is most likely next to be suspect tested, I would like to ask if someone could provide a more detailed breakdown of why exactly its such a problem for players. Maybe because I tend to however around 1300-1400 on the ladder, I'm not seeing it being used to its fullest potential.
On paper, its very strong stat wise.
Hits hard, outspeeds most of the meta, even when adamant.
Libero gives it STAB on everything, has very good coverage.
Usually runs boots to pivot in more frequently and avoid being worn down.
Clearly a very strong pokemon, but we've had a similar pokemon in the past couple gens; greninja. It walked that fine line between broken and just really good, but even the addition of z moves and battle bond werent enough to get it banned. And it arguably had way better typing to take advantage of, on top of having spikes/t-spikes.
So why is cinder any different? Are we lacking in teambuilding options? Are people just not making the proper adjustments to account for it?
Again, might just be where I sit on the ladder personally, but I'm usually able to handle cinder well enough that I dont feel like its this huge, oppressive force that would warrant a ban.
Now dont get me wrong, it is most definitely a strong mon. I've been able to dismantle teams pretty handily with it, but its not that hard to do when the opponents best (or only) cinder answers are clef, magearna, kommo, azumaril and or corvi.
I feel like comparing things now to last Gen is kind of pointless. Things are VASTLY different now with over 300 Pokemon missing, over 400 if Megas and other alternate forms are counted. Not to mention the nukes that Z-Moves were. We can't think about Pokemon based on how they, or similar Pokemon, were in the past. The environment is radically different now, and its going to keep changing. We have the pseudo-legendaries and a ton of actual legendaries coming back at the end of the year. By Gens end I'm pretty certain all 900 Pokemon will be back. Z-Moves and Megas a certainly a different story, but if they return (I do feel Megas are likely since they keep showing up in the other Pokemon media) that adds further complications. Even if something is decided it is too much now, it is likely that some of the stuff that was banned will be retested in the future when the metas are vastly changed by the introduction of hundred(s) of new Pokemon.
So, since cinder is most likely next to be suspect tested, I would like to ask if someone could provide a more detailed breakdown of why exactly its such a problem for players. Maybe because I tend to however around 1300-1400 on the ladder, I'm not seeing it being used to its fullest potential.
On paper, its very strong stat wise.
Hits hard, outspeeds most of the meta, even when adamant.
Libero gives it STAB on everything, has very good coverage.
Usually runs boots to pivot in more frequently and avoid being worn down.
Clearly a very strong pokemon, but we've had a similar pokemon in the past couple gens; greninja. It walked that fine line between broken and just really good, but even the addition of z moves and battle bond werent enough to get it banned. And it arguably had way better typing to take advantage of, on top of having spikes/t-spikes.
So why is cinder any different? Are we lacking in teambuilding options? Are people just not making the proper adjustments to account for it?
Again, might just be where I sit on the ladder personally, but I'm usually able to handle cinder well enough that I dont feel like its this huge, oppressive force that would warrant a ban.
Now dont get me wrong, it is most definitely a strong mon. I've been able to dismantle teams pretty handily with it, but its not that hard to do when the opponents best (or only) cinder answers are clef, magearna, kommo, azumaril and or corvi.
Ok, so Greninja is a good comparison to make. In Gen 6 Greninja was banned for "picking and choosing its checks and counters" after it got Low Kick and Gunk Shot. In Gen 7, in spite of the buffs it got, it was considered balanced due to 4MSS. But what is actually the difference between these two? You could argue Infernape, an eternal victim of 4MSS, could "pick and choose its checks and counters".
The big difference I'd like to indicate between these two gens is simply the number of answers Greninja had that it to "go out of its way" to beat. All other things being equal, Greninja would love to run Hydro Pump, its single strongest move, but how many Greninja ran that move in Gen 7? The answer is "none". Gen 7 introduced Toxapex as a hard stop to any Greninja not running Groundium Z Dig or Extrasensory, two moves Greninja would not touch with a barge pole in Gen 6. The Tapus turned Gunk Shot from a "nice to have" move to "near-mandatory". Magearna also punished any set lacking Groundium or a heavily boosted Hydro Pump. In Gen 6, you could run Gunk Shot, Ice Beam and Hydro Pump and you would hit basically the entire game bar a few select checks that you could devote your 4th slot to. That 4th slot could also be given to Spikes or U-turn. While Spikes continued to see usage in Gen 7, U-turn on Greninja just died out. Which brings me to another Pokemon I'd like to draw some parallels with.
Genesect was the definition of a Pokemon too strong for OU. Its combined stats, typing and Ability are just absurd, and it had an insane movepool to abuse them, notably getting access to the BoltBeam combination. But the move everyone hated the most on Genesect, was U-turn. U-turn from Genesect came with STAB and possibly a Download boost so it would always deal some decent damage. And, when Choiced, Genesect could just click this move over and over and over without punishment due to the narrow pool of checks it forced in and comparatively high speed. Worse still, however, was its Expert Belt set (U-turn/BoltBeam/HP Ground or other filler). First up, it could just repeatedly click U-turn to pretend to be Choiced. But what made it so devastating was even after the opponent found out the set, it could just click buttons in front of a defensive core until it found a Pokemon that this particular set it was running couldn't beat at the moment. Then it would just U-turn on this mon. And repeat. Especially if Genesect still had an unrevealed move, the opponent would have no idea what it could actually beat, and thus was just U-turning to chip into KO range, and what it genuinely was checked by, and thus was U-turning away from.
Cinderace combines traits from both of these mons, albeit somewhat watered down. It will make progress in many games just by U-turning repeatedly until it unveils a surprise KO coverage move. Heavy Duty Boots make it very hard to punish for this. Much like Greninja, its natural speed means the only things faster than it tend to be very frail, so once it gets in, chances are it is faster than whatever is in front of it and can just click whatever works against what is in front of it, or U-turn to safety if it is threatened. Pyro Ball and Gunk Shot hit most of the game, so it's just a case of choosing between Zen Headbutt, Sucker Punch, High Jump Kick or Taunt.
But Cinderace is not without its flaws compared with the above two titans. Its paltry 65 SpA means it cannot run mixed sets effectively, with only the rare Electro Ball seeing occasional use. It lacks the ability to beat certain elite checks like Hippowdon and Gastrodon, unlike Greninja and Genesect, who could always fall back on Hidden Power in an emergency to beat anything. It cannot run a boosting item like Greninja's Life Orb or Genesect's Expert Belt due to its Rock weakness necessitating Boots to pivot. However, Boots are hardly a bad item to be forced into running, and Cinderace's speed and power means it can usually either keep away from Knock Off or heavily punish it otherwise.
Ok, so Greninja is a good comparison to make. In Gen 6 Greninja was banned for "picking and choosing its checks and counters" after it got Low Kick and Gunk Shot. In Gen 7, in spite of the buffs it got, it was considered balanced due to 4MSS. But what is actually the difference between these two? You could argue Infernape, an eternal victim of 4MSS, could "pick and choose its checks and counters".
The big difference I'd like to indicate between these two gens is simply the number of answers Greninja had that it to "go out of its way" to beat. All other things being equal, Greninja would love to run Hydro Pump, its single strongest move, but how many Greninja ran that move in Gen 7? The answer is "none". Gen 7 introduced Toxapex as a hard stop to any Greninja not running Groundium Z Dig or Extrasensory, two moves Greninja would not touch with a barge pole in Gen 6. The Tapus turned Gunk Shot from a "nice to have" move to "near-mandatory". Magearna also punished any set lacking Groundium or a heavily boosted Hydro Pump. In Gen 6, you could run Gunk Shot, Ice Beam and Hydro Pump and you would hit basically the entire game bar a few select checks that you could devote your 4th slot to. That 4th slot could also be given to Spikes or U-turn. While Spikes continued to see usage in Gen 7, U-turn on Greninja just died out. Which brings me to another Pokemon I'd like to draw some parallels with.
Yeah, I agree that the big reason regular Greninja became manageable in USUM was largely due to how insane power creep got in that gen. Ninja had to run eyebrow-raising options simply because of how much certain mons didn't care about it otherwise, and nobody complained since those mons were effectively kept in check by the posse of insanely strong attackers running around.
With that said, Cinderace is an- interesting case. Sure, it's definitely neither as flexible or as controlling over its matchups as Greninja was, but at the same time the whole Dexit debacle left us without many of the strong mons that made Ninja only a good option as opposed to a great one; the current OU environment is overall weaker than the one Ninja had to face. Race has a lot of great qualities in its own right; the two that really stand out are U-turn, which allows it to pick-and-choose its matchups to some extent, and Sucker Punch, which can effectively doom any faster mon that does manage to live one hit. True, Race is not without issue: its higher attacking stat than Ninja is counteracted by its inability to run a boosting item and higher predictability due to only having one viable attacking stat. Also, there are mons like Hippowdon and Toxapex (although I've argued Pex may be problematic in its own right) that can sponge most of its hits with minimal difficulty, although both need to be wary of Taunt. That said, Race is still a mon you have to be wary of each match because you can never be certain which moves it has (besides Pyro Ball) until you see them, and the selection of moves it has does often shape which mons can effectively counter it outside a select few options. So, to sum up the rabbit: It is an overall fearsome attacker who is not as overwhelming as Greninja, but can still prove a headache due to solid attacking options, ability to scout with U-turn and general inconsistencies in countering it effectively. Honestly, I could go either way with a suspect, although I am leaning a bit more towards ban.
That said, Race is still a mon you have to be wary of each match because you can never be certain which moves it has (besides U-turn) until you see them, and the selection of moves it has does often shape which mons can effectively counter it outside a select few options.
I think thats a bit of an exaggeration. It's always going to have pyro ball, uturn and zen. It's really the 4th move you need to scout for, which is usually bulk up, gunk shot, sucker punch or even the odd court change.
I think thats a bit of an exaggeration. It's always going to have pyro ball, uturn and zen. It's really the 4th move you need to scout for, which is usually bulk up, gunk shot, sucker punch or even the odd court change.
Well that's exactly the point they're making, it's not always going to be pyro ball/uturn/zen/4th. In fact, u-turn isn't even in it's top 3 most used moves, and pyro ball is its only move anywhere close to being on every set. A lot of the power of a mon like cinderace comes from the unpredictability. If it had only 1 set and you always knew which mon on your team is the best answer, it wouldn't be as threatening. Don't get me wrong it has a lot of other stuff going for it, but you can't discount the decent coverage or utility it gets by saying it only has one set.
.usage1825 cinderace, moves
[16:30:19] *TIBot:Pyro Ball 94.278% | Zen Headbutt 60.957% | Sucker Punch 59.642% | U-turn 55.324% | High Jump Kick 44.298% | Bulk Up 33.627% | Court Change 30.664% | Gunk Shot 12.141% | Other 9.070%
I got to within one game (81.8 GXE, 51 games played) of making reqs before I lost. I've since tilted down to a 78.7 GXE and I really could not be bothered trying again.
However, based on the sentiment in this thread, I feel pretty good that the reqs-getters are going to do the right thing when it comes to Mag.
Personally I feel like Cinderace is the more pressing mon for a suspect test right now. I feel like he's simply infinitely more spammable with significantly fewer drawbacks on his spam than Mag. I've actually had a lot of luck running Scarf Keldeo but he gets worn down and is pretty useless against most of the rest of the meta.
At least with Mag your opponent needs to have some sort of prediction since it'll probably be slower than whatever comes in on it and is also somewhat susceptible to being revenge killed because of that as well.
It's really Libero that makes this mon broken more than anything and I think it would be healthier for the meta honestly if they just did a complex ban on that ability. But I know that's typically not how things are handled around here.
It's a bit of an odd case though, because preLibero Cinderace was a perfectly balanced (hell, kinda weak) fast pivot and Court Change was fun. Then Love to I'd released and the whole Mon has to go?
This is one instance where I would hope for an ability ban instead.
It's a bit of an odd case though, because preLibero Cinderace was a perfectly balanced (hell, kinda weak) fast pivot and Court Change was fun. Then Love to I'd released and the whole Mon has to go?
This is one instance where I would hope for an ability ban instead.
Just giving my two cents here, but banning Libero would imply that its also broken on raboot or every mon who has it (which of course its not). The solution there would be a complex ban on Cinderace alone to ban Libero on Cinderace but it's doubtful that the Council will do that.
It's a bit of an odd case though, because preLibero Cinderace was a perfectly balanced (hell, kinda weak) fast pivot and Court Change was fun. Then Love to I'd released and the whole Mon has to go?
This is one instance where I would hope for an ability ban instead.
