What ? Lorelei has 4 Water types, 4 Ice types and 2 Psychic types !
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon
- Thread starter Yung Dramps
- Start date
What ? Lorelei has 4 Water types, 4 Ice types and 2 Psychic types !
Correct, posting late at night is not my forte!
Yeah, they actually scary me whenever I have to deal with them; last time it was Slugma's Fire Blast that saved my ass against that dreadful Cloyster.
On the same note, HGSS' bosses often abuse spammy/troll strategies, especially the gym leaders during their rematches. Literally half of their Mons know and spam Double Team (like Chuck's Poliwrath, that pairs evasion with some dreadful Focus Punch, and Pryce's Froslass) and if they set up enough they become frustratingly unhittable.
Now that someone mentioned Eeveevolutions, I'm surprised not to see this one...
THE BEST:
While nothing special in the original GSC aside from getting HM Surf, the Kimono Girls have a more prominent role in HGSS, secretly testing you throughout your journey by letting you help them. Yes, letting you, because once you get to fight them and see how POWERFUL these ladies were all the time, they could have got out of trouble at any moment.
The fight now happens after Clair, and you are greeted with a salty Silver that already got curbstomped by them. Now that's buldup. The other difference: IT'S A GAUNTLET!!! They won't let you heal in between their fights, so it's basically just one powerful trainer with 5 lv.38's in disguise. Also, the Eeveevolutions now carry very dangerous STAB moves like Dark Pulse, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Surf and Fire Blast; and the powerful Last Resort if they pull off their other 3 moves. ALSO, the order is just diabolical:
First comes Umbreon, so you begin the fight with a Fighting type, right? Well, next comes Espeon, so you are in trouble now...
So, a Bug type to handle those two. Well, after those two then comes Flareon.
Ok, so you prepare your Water type in the second slot for Flareon, BUT THEN COMES JOLTEON! And this Jolteon might be the worst of them all since it carries Double Team and Thunder Wave. A bulky ground type can deal with it (and Flareon), but them comes Vaporeon, with Aurora Beam to be prepared for Grass types...
tl dr, this is a well improved fight and one of the toughest ones in the game. I hope you have a well balanced team. Nuzlocke players are guaranteed to lose at least one member here...
THE BEST:
While nothing special in the original GSC aside from getting HM Surf, the Kimono Girls have a more prominent role in HGSS, secretly testing you throughout your journey by letting you help them. Yes, letting you, because once you get to fight them and see how POWERFUL these ladies were all the time, they could have got out of trouble at any moment.
The fight now happens after Clair, and you are greeted with a salty Silver that already got curbstomped by them. Now that's buldup. The other difference: IT'S A GAUNTLET!!! They won't let you heal in between their fights, so it's basically just one powerful trainer with 5 lv.38's in disguise. Also, the Eeveevolutions now carry very dangerous STAB moves like Dark Pulse, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Surf and Fire Blast; and the powerful Last Resort if they pull off their other 3 moves. ALSO, the order is just diabolical:
First comes Umbreon, so you begin the fight with a Fighting type, right? Well, next comes Espeon, so you are in trouble now...
So, a Bug type to handle those two. Well, after those two then comes Flareon.
Ok, so you prepare your Water type in the second slot for Flareon, BUT THEN COMES JOLTEON! And this Jolteon might be the worst of them all since it carries Double Team and Thunder Wave. A bulky ground type can deal with it (and Flareon), but them comes Vaporeon, with Aurora Beam to be prepared for Grass types...
tl dr, this is a well improved fight and one of the toughest ones in the game. I hope you have a well balanced team. Nuzlocke players are guaranteed to lose at least one member here...
Last edited:
I have swept HGSS Bruno with a swords dance Raticate before, it's really that bad. I'm sure even something like Farfetched could sweep Bruno by abusing Hitmontop's terrible movepool.
I also just want to mention that I really don't think a better AI would save Bruno from something like Gyarados, you know.
Yeah the only time Bruno’s had a remotely threatening team is in his HGSS rematch, and even then he still leads with a Hitmontop that’s complete setup bait for something like a Gyarados.
In general it’s hard to effectively cover weaknesses in a mono-Fighting team, especially in the earlier games where Psychic-types were so dominant and now again in the recent games where Fairy-types are ubiquitous.
I did a mono-Fighting run of X where my only Pokémon not weak to Flying was the Hasty gift Lucario, so every Team Flare Golbat with Acrobatics was a legitimate threat.
As a result of this difficulty, battles with Fighting specialists in Pokémon games are a little hard to design. The whole Fighting Dojo and Bruno are pretty pathetic in the original games and remakes. Chuck poses a big threat in his appearances, but mainly because of hax. Brawly can be very scary to deal with for some teams if he gets enough Bulk Ups going, but he can’t do shit to a Sableye and once his Seismic Toss Machop is down he can’t deal with strong resists like Zubat or the Hoenn bugs either. Maylene’s fine, mostly because Lucario’s Steel-typing neutralises the Flying and Psychic matchups. Marshall’s also fine from memory, mainly because of decent movesets? Korrina’s very disappointing, Hala’s alright, and Bea’s one of the many SwSh bosses that’s trivialised by Dynamax and the level curve.
Not a great track record, overall.
Last edited:
It seems like Fighting-type specialists become more threatening to the player the earlier in the game you face them. If you can find a Ghost-type at any point before reaching them, they're almost trivial. Flying-types are ubiquitous too, even in the early-game, but very early on they're usually not strong enough to sweep. Early-game Psychic-types tend to be slow, frail, and with the attack strength of wet noodles, but late in the game they can be fast and very strong, to the point that Fighting-types can only go "huh?" before being blown away. Fighting is the most threatening when fought before the player can get the upper hand through the diversity and strength of their team members. If you can counter them, you can counter them hard. No wonder that out of all the Fighting-type specialists in the series, only Bruno and Marshal (and to a certain degree Chuck) are fought for the first time after the halfway point of their game, and neither of them are seen as very challenging fights.
well, Farfetch'd is rather slow, so stuff like Hitmonlee can just outspeed and kill it. I get your point, though, but only fast things will sweep him.
that point aside, I find it interesting how Bugsy's team roster in HGSS (the Gym fight, to be more specific) can be seen both as "best" and "worst". His Scyther is very dangerous if you do not have an answer to it (typically Geodude or Onix, but other things work too, albeit less reliably), but his two other members, Kakuna and Metapod, are super trivial (I have beaten them with Magikarp, so go figure. I did have to heal it once due to Kakuna's Poison Sting, but that's it). I have a feeling GF added the cacoons only so they can show off U-turn's "cool" effect, as Scyther alone makes up 99% of the fight anyways.
Marshal gets the boon of being a Gen 5 Fighting user (hence no Fairies), and pretty much all of his mons are bulky and/or have access to Rock/Dark coverage. He's also the "wildcard" of BW's E4, as any Pokemon that aims to sweep him is unlikely to be as useful in the other fights.
Plus with the restricted BW1 Dex your best hope of running through him with STAB is Sigilyph, Swanna or Unefezant, because every other Psychic in the game is slow AF or is non-Simple Swoobat (let's not discuss Emolga). The best strat might unironically be Work Up Acrobatics Simpour or something like that so his coverage misses you.
Unfortunately he doesn't change his team at all for BW2 so Espeon go brrr I guess.
Plus with the restricted BW1 Dex your best hope of running through him with STAB is Sigilyph, Swanna or Unefezant, because every other Psychic in the game is slow AF or is non-Simple Swoobat (let's not discuss Emolga). The best strat might unironically be Work Up Acrobatics Simpour or something like that so his coverage misses you.
Unfortunately he doesn't change his team at all for BW2 so Espeon go brrr I guess.
I mean the coccoons are there because they were there in the first game and outside of Clair they were allergic to changing the rosters of anyone.
You're probably right they're like that because Scyther is the real part of the fight, though. See also, probably why Whitney's other pokemon is a clefairy.
That said surely they could have just like...used a ledyba or spinarak for flavor....
I used Reuniclus. Being slow doesnt matter if you can just take punches to the face without incident and then kill them in turn. Both Reuniclus & Gothitelle are probably better suited for that battle than Swanna or Unfezant could ever hope to be.
Also every single one of his pokemon has a rock move where as psychics only have to deal with Payback on Throh (which, hey slow psychics get around the boosted power) and the more dangerous U-Turn on Meinshao. But a strong psychic basically takes care of 3/4ths of the team, with some slight support on the side as needed.
Bruno's Machamp can be dangerous, especially in HGSS, where Fly tends to be the best option to hit Fighting types, but his Machamp has No Guard and Rock Slide to shoot you down from the sky.
Also for SOME Reason, some of Marshal physical attackers pack Grass Knot...
Also for SOME Reason, some of Marshal physical attackers pack Grass Knot...
Guzma is pretty solidly built in both Sun/Moon and Ultra Sun/Moon. Golisopod for Rock and Fire types, a buffed Masquerain to rip through teams and Pinsir for general strength. I'm sad they dumped Ariados for Vikavolt because I liked the flavor of him using an unheralded bug type, but it was a big upgrade, and his USUM movesets are generally really good. Pinsir especially has four strong moves to take on anything (physical) that comes up against it, and Vikavolt's got its fair share of power.
I actually think Whitney is a great boss. She may be annoying to deal with, but she's one of the few bosses where you often have to use an entire team to take her Miltank down. Have one team member lower its damage with growl or reflect, have another use leer or screech to lower its defense and have a third mon to take it out. It just feels like a true boss fight.
The totem fights have potential to offer this feeling of conquering one Powerful boss Pokemon, but I never liked that the fights were 2vs1. Feel kind of unfair and anticlimactic to me for some reason. It doesn't help that some of the totems are kind of badly designed. Like soak on a mon that only knows water gun as damaging move and battery Charjabug helping a physical Vikavolt.
The totem fights have potential to offer this feeling of conquering one Powerful boss Pokemon, but I never liked that the fights were 2vs1. Feel kind of unfair and anticlimactic to me for some reason. It doesn't help that some of the totems are kind of badly designed. Like soak on a mon that only knows water gun as damaging move and battery Charjabug helping a physical Vikavolt.
Another neat thing about Guzma's battle is that, since he sends out Golisopod first, it has a chance of showing off its Ability. It's a little detail, but considering how many trainers they have with Pokemon who don't utilize their Abilities it's always nice to see ones that do with pretty unique Abilities.
Very late reply, but I decided to check this and it seems like he was randomly downgraded from G/S/C for some unknown reason. His original counterpart, "Cooltrainer" Brian, had a level 35 Sandslash instead of a Mareep. And it seems like he isn't the only trainer on Route 27 that got changed either. Bird Keeper Jose had a level 34/35 Farfetch'd in the originals, but it got upgraded to level 40 in the remakes! Then there's Cool/Ace Trainer Reena. She had 2 Starmie at level 31 and a Nidoqueen at level 33 in the originals, but in the remakes, she has a level 33 Nidorina as well as a Growlithe and Staryu at level 36. Despite the higher levels, I'd say that's a downgrade since none of them are fully evolved.
It is interesting to see how trainers can change like this between the originals and remakes. Some for the better, others for the worse. There are probably many other examples of this (such as Jennifer on Route 120 in Hoenn, who was also discussed here recently).
Nope. Bugsy had the same team in GSC, though Scyther was saved for last.
It's as embarrassing as it sounds.
Something interesting to note is that pretty much every npc with Kakunas and Metapods only have Harden as its only move. Bugsy's cocoons, however, pack Tackle and Poison Sting...
Hello. I stumbled across this thread and figured I could add in my opinion on the best and worst boss fights in Pokemon. Since Red and Green were first released, Pokemon has came with many bosses. Many of them were good, some even great, while others were just bad or outright awful. For me, the most memorable boss fights came from Generation 7 as having to battle boosted Pokemon by themselves without a trainer giving them commands gave off a strong boss fight vibe that Pokemon had been lacking prior to those games. Gym Leaders, Elite Four members, and Champions are indeed boss fights but they've never felt as much like boss fights and I feel more neutral about most of them. Without further ado, here are my thoughts.
Best Boss Fight:
Ultra Necrozma (USUM)
Description: This fight is against a big and powerful legendary dragon seeking to test your skills when encountered. It is a late game boss who's difficult enough to give players a harder beating than any of the core series trainer bosses if they come unprepared and without luck. Most of its foes would get absolutely demolished by the pure light energy coming from its signature Photon Geyser attack or by the arsenal of great coverage moves that leave most Fairy-type, Dragon-type, and Ice-type, Pokemon screaming. Not even the Dark-type Alolan starter can handle this beast under normal circumstances. Ultra Necrozma is a Pokemon already carrying a higher BST than Arceus and still gives itself a 1-Up boost to all of its stats. As of now, this is the single most powerful Pokemon you can face off against against prior to postgame in any core series Pokemon game. It is not even more than just a bit overleveled for the part of the game in which you face it. With a little bit more grinding than usual you can reach its level of 60. If all of that wasn't already enough, Ultra Necrozma's boss fight also comes with what's arguably the most epic Pokemon battle theme to this day. GameFreak must've been serious about giving us a boss worth the entire adventure in Gen 7. This boss fight alone was most of why I decided to get Pokemon Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon.
Video of Ultra Necrozma's match in full action:
Worst Boss Fight:
Totem Vikavolt (SM)
Description: Gonna be real with you, Vikavolt is already not good in battles but it's even worse as a Totem in Pokemon Sun and Moon. I knew this fight would be disappointing so right before facing it I swapped my party members around to have Gyarados in the first slot, then 1v1'd the Totem Vikavolt with my Gyarados and still won. In case you don't know, Gyarados has a x4 weakness to Electric, which is Vikavolt's secondary typing. I was pretty much mocking this Pokemon and while doing so, still managed to win more easily than against just about every other Totem boss in the game.
Best Boss Fight:
Ultra Necrozma (USUM)
Description: This fight is against a big and powerful legendary dragon seeking to test your skills when encountered. It is a late game boss who's difficult enough to give players a harder beating than any of the core series trainer bosses if they come unprepared and without luck. Most of its foes would get absolutely demolished by the pure light energy coming from its signature Photon Geyser attack or by the arsenal of great coverage moves that leave most Fairy-type, Dragon-type, and Ice-type, Pokemon screaming. Not even the Dark-type Alolan starter can handle this beast under normal circumstances. Ultra Necrozma is a Pokemon already carrying a higher BST than Arceus and still gives itself a 1-Up boost to all of its stats. As of now, this is the single most powerful Pokemon you can face off against against prior to postgame in any core series Pokemon game. It is not even more than just a bit overleveled for the part of the game in which you face it. With a little bit more grinding than usual you can reach its level of 60. If all of that wasn't already enough, Ultra Necrozma's boss fight also comes with what's arguably the most epic Pokemon battle theme to this day. GameFreak must've been serious about giving us a boss worth the entire adventure in Gen 7. This boss fight alone was most of why I decided to get Pokemon Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon.
Video of Ultra Necrozma's match in full action:
Worst Boss Fight:
Totem Vikavolt (SM)
Description: Gonna be real with you, Vikavolt is already not good in battles but it's even worse as a Totem in Pokemon Sun and Moon. I knew this fight would be disappointing so right before facing it I swapped my party members around to have Gyarados in the first slot, then 1v1'd the Totem Vikavolt with my Gyarados and still won. In case you don't know, Gyarados has a x4 weakness to Electric, which is Vikavolt's secondary typing. I was pretty much mocking this Pokemon and while doing so, still managed to win more easily than against just about every other Totem boss in the game.
Totem Vikavolt is an example of a boss fight that was improved in USUM. I'd say Totem Togedemaru is very threatening and very few Pokemon are "perfect" against it (Mudsdale comes to mind as an example) and Zing Zap + Iron Head flinches are pretty dangerous, especially since Skarmory has Tailwind and Stealth Rock to assist it a bit.
e: improved = made the trial better
e: improved = made the trial better
Honestly they should have just given Bugsy a Ledyba and Spinarak if they didn't want him to use fully evolved Pokemon. It's less embarrassing for him and shows off two Gen II Pokemon (gee, who would have thought, a Gen II Gym Leader using primarily Gen II Pokemon!).
You said it yourself. If more than a handful of Gen 2 gym leaders had Gen 2 Pokemon the fabric of reality would collapse.
If there's ever prototype SM builds that leak I would not be shocked, either from whats in the data or just confidential balance report emails, that the Totem Vikavolt battle was originally designed with a special moveset in mind and then turned out to be too ridiculous (especially if it had a special bug move alongside what likely would've been thunderbolt) and just quickly changed it to a physical moveset.
To create some rules for myself, I'm going to follow the Let's Go layout for number of Pokemon (2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4)(5 for Elite Four, 6 for Champion). Also will do Rematch teams (5 for Gym Leaders, 6 for Elite Four + Mega), and to give myself more wiggle room will allow Regional Variants for all rematch teams (cause some desperately need that, though whether to also include the Galar Regional Evolutions I'll leave that up in the air). Would have expanded Mega beyond Elite Four but Pryce doesn't have a Mega he can use.
- Falkner: Hoothoot & Pidgeotto
(REMATCH: Farfetch'd, Delibird, Dodrio, Noctowl & Pidgeot) - Bugsy: Ledyba & Scyther
(REMATCH: Yanma, Shuckle, Parasect, Ledian & Scizor) - Whitney: Aipom, Jigglypuff & Miltank
(REMATCH: Furret, Blissey, Aipom, Wigglytuff, & Miltank)
(Also Whitney's Gym is now in a shape of a Jigglypuff instead of Clefairy) - Morty: Misdreavus, Clefable* & Gengar
(REMATCH: (G-Corsola/Cursula), A-Marowak, Clefable, Misdreavus & Gengar)
* Not enough Ghost-types and had hard time deciding other Pokemon he would get so, f@#$ it, Morty gets a Fairy-type. Went with Clefable due to Gengar being based on its shadow. - Chuck: Primeape, Pinsir, Hitmontop & Poliwrath
(REMATCH: (G-Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd), Primeape, Pinsir, Hitmontop, Poliwrath) - Jasmine: Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix
(REMATCH: (Perrserker/A-Dugtrio), Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix) - Pryce: Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine
(REMATCH: A-Sandslash, Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine) - Clair: Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonair & Kingdra
(REMATCH: A-Exeggutor, Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonite & Kingdra) - Will: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu
(REMATCH: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu & Mega Slowbro) - Koga: Tentacruel, Weezing, Venomoth, Muk & Crobat (*Innocent Whistling*)
(REMATCH: Tentacruel, Weezing, Venomoth, Muk, Crobat & Mega Beedrill) - Bruno: Heracross, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee & Machamp
(REMATCH: A-Golem, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machamp & Mega Heracross) - Karen: Murkrow, Granbull, Jynx, Umbreon, Houndoom
(REMATCH: A-Raticate, Murkrow, Granbull, Jynx, Umbreon, & Mega Houndoom) - Lance: Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Kingdra, Mega Charizard, & Dragonite
Last edited:
ok what.
Clair's team, for most parts, has snake-like Pokemon in it (Gyarados and Dragonair), so I assume Dunsparce was put to follow the theme.