CAP 28 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 28 So Far

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Archetype Submissions
• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset archetypes.
2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Surging Strikes
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
• Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Hey y'all! I'll be your leader for the moves stage.

CAP 28 is an interesting beast in the context of moves. It certainly has the tools it needs, as strong offenses and Neutralizing Gas do allow it to fulfill it's most essential of tasks in deincentivising pivots. However it also has a lot less going for it due to bad bulk, lower speed, and a sub-par offensive STAB combination. We have the opportunity to be liberal to some extent, but our focus should be on patching up what weaknesses we can and possibly giving a few more options CAP 28 can use.

It should also be noted that due to the decisions made in this thread, we will be running this stage just a bit differently than we usually do. Instead of approving full movesets for the CAP, we will be approving individual moves for the set archetypes that we deem most important and essential to how CAP28 will likely play.

To begin I would like to lead a couple of questions. We won't be submitting anything just yet, so hold those submissions for another time.

1. Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?
2. Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?
3. What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

Additional note, but the CAP28 Testing Server is currently operational here. If you can, I recommend playing a couple games over the course of this stage. Real battle experience should help the arguments presented greatly.

Go nuts!

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Archetypes & Dissections

Disruption Stallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

Physical Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 2-3

Special Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 1-2

Support (low priority)

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 1-2
Status Moves: 0
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

Move/Set Approvals

Disruption Stallbreaker

Mixed Stallbreaker
- Megahorn
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Close Combat / Earthquake
- Taunt

Recover
Physical Wallbreaker

Choice Band Breaker
- Dragon Hammer / Outrage
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / High Horsepower

Swords Dance Breaker
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Hammer
- Close Combat
- Earthquake

First Impression
- First Impression
- Earthquake / Dragon Hammer
- Megahorn / Close Combat
- Thunder

(current misc)
Dragon Rush

Special Wallbreaker

Nasty Plot
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Close Combat / Focus Blast

Technically Mixed FI
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Close Combat
- First Impression

(current misc)
Bug Buzz

Support

Move Blacklists

Sleep Powder, Hypnosis
Speed + Offense Boosting (Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, Shell Smash)
U-turn
Entry Hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web)
Strength Sap
Light Screen, Reflect
Pseudo-Trapping (Infestation, Sand Tomb, etc.)
Knock Off
Scale Shot
Gunk Shot
Fire-type coverage over 65 BP
Ice-type coverage over 65 BP
Psychic-type coverage over 65 BP
Rock-type coverage over 65 BP
Poison-type coverage over 65 BP
Water-type coverage over 65 BP
Fairy-type coverage over 65 BP

 

[quziel]

1) Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

One thing that jumps out to me is well, the role of a Taunt based stallbreaker. This particular archetype of mon has fallen off very hard specifically because of regenerator. There is no point spending a turn Taunting a Toxapex when it can just swap out and gain 33% health back. I will admit, this is a fairly narrow role, and one that was never the best even at its peak (honestly arguably DPP leads), but because of our stats (just shy of 2hkoing pex at best), and our resistances, I think this is a very functional role for us to play.

I think that also ironically an offensive pivot using priority is something we can do well. We certainly have the stats for it, and threatening faster pivots with priority moves is a very good way for us to sap momentum and prevent them from actually pivoting. If we can get in a neutral situation vs Zeraora, basically the only way we have to stop it clicking Volt is threatening with priority.

General offensive presence is a given based on our very strong offensive stats.

2) Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?
Ground hits Toxapex (pivot), Steel types such as Equilibra (pivot), and gives generally solid neutral coverage, I am in support of it.
Electric gives us a strong hit vs Toxapex (pivot), Tomohawk (pivot), Mandibuzz (pivot), and again is generally quite useful in combination with our Bug STAB. It can hit Togekiss SE, which is undesirable, but aside from that I am heavily in support of it.

3) What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?
As said above, I think a Taunt based stallbreaker absolutely should be one archetype given that barring strong boosting its probably our best way to force damage onto Regen pivots (Amoonguss and Toxapex) that we cannot hit SE with Megahorn.

A priority based offensive pivot is another archetype I think we should pursue.

I think we can also pursue a hazard setting set, if only because Tomohawk hates taking 12.5% from rocks.

Suggested Archetypes:
Taunt Stallbreaker
Priority Wallbreaker Hybrid
Offensive Stealth Rock User

 

[dex]

1) Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

I believe that Offensive Pressure, Substitute, Disrupting Moves, and Draining Moves are all easily attainable strengths for CAP28. One more that I would like to mention is Inflicting Status. Sleep can be devastating to an offensive or defensive pivot, and given Compound Eyes as the secondary, I think assuming Sleep Powder makes it on is a pretty safe bet. Neutralizing Gas negates the blobs’ ability to absorb status for free, making it a particularly interesting and unique punish.

2) Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?

I agree that Electric is a key coverage type here. Hitting and is very important for a mon attempting to be a Roadblock. It messes with the matchup, but that’s just one of many fairy types that are strong into CAP28.

I want to mention Fighting as a key coverage option for CAP28 as well. Access to Superpower or CC would help alleviate the matchup, and provide super effective coverage for Levitate .


3) What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

Pardon me if I’m riding quziel’s coattails, but Taunt Stallbreaker is a great path for CAP28 to take. Three attack taunt makes use of CAP28’s excellent ability to force switches.

A flat out physical wallbreaker plays on the idea of “I’m going to hard punish whatever you send in for ”. There aren’t a whole lot of mons that can stand up to CAP28’s physical prowess multiple times.

One last role I could see CAP28 filling is Sleep + Setup. The role this plays on a team depends on what setup options CAP28 gets. If SD and NP are in the mix, wallbreaking is where this will lead. If QD somehow gets through move selection, then sweeping is on the table.

Suggested Archetypes:
Mixed Taunt Stallbreaker
Physical Wallbreaker
Sleep Setup Artist.

 

[theotherguytm]

Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

These are the proposed methods to accomplish this goal.

• General offensive pressure
• Substitute
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
• Disruption moves (Taunt and Encore)
• Strong priority
• Draining moves (Giga Drain, Drain Punch, etc.)
• Resilience to passive damage
• Type immunities

I think we've got offensive pressure sorted with our stats. Substitute is a given.
Phazing is interesting, and obviously where our Dragon STAB can come nicely into play. However, I'm not convinced by it. With our stats, if a Teleporter is staying in, we should be doing major damage to it. Using our turn to randomize the Teleport doesn't seem convincing when we are already in front of our #1 switch-in. IMO Phazing is a way of punishing other types of pivoting by denting the switch-in AND randomising it. Whether we can do this is up for debate.
Disruption: Yesyesyesyes! Taunt in particular stands out as a huge one, but we should keep an open mind to things like Encoring a Slowtwin into Future Sight or Slack Off.
Next, priority. This seems aimed more at faster pivots. I'm not convinced we have the stats to handle them, but it could be useful.
Draining moves are always useful if we need to be dealing damage and healing up without losing momentum.
Resilience to passive damage is something we've worried about a ton, but I think it's totally fixable in this stage without going overboard. A status-curing move of some kind could be really useful here, not necessarily as a cleric but as something to keep us going.

Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?

I'll quote the final C&C post on this one:

Being capable of switching safely into Slowbro and Slowking, immediately forcing out Blissey, and pressuring Steel-types should be our main priorities in order to achieve our concept.

Fighting jumps immediately to mind, though that doesn't help us with Fairy types. Fire and/or Ground might do that better, especially Ground because everyone hates the Pex. I think we don't need to go overboard with Steel or Poison coverage though.

What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

Stallbreaker
Obvious. So much of what we want to do will naturally make us good at this.
Physical/Mixed Wallbreaker
With the stats we have, this one will come very naturally to CAP 28. Being able to smash bulky pivots into dust is pro-concept, and Choice Band is an item that exists.
Status Absorber
This is the dream. If we can not be affected by status, we have all the tools to exploit Regen mons like Pex, Slowtwins, Tangrowth, and Amoonguss that rely on status.
Not convinced by any need to do anything involving hazards for any reason beyond "we can". Yes, hazards can hinder pivots but there's no shortage of setters and removers atm, and many of those pivots are running Boots anyway.

 

[Jewvia]

> Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring

With our distribution, we already have some good General Offensive Pressure through our high offensive stats, and are more lacking in terms of what we hit SE. Bug alone helps us cover quite a few things, but its working alone, and we would need some coverage to help with this.

Phazing is still a great option that helps us take advantage of our STAB Dragon Tail, especially with our relatively average speed rating. Most dragons outspeed us, so we probably aren't going to be killing many of them, but we can scare them out on switch in or punish Volt Switch/U-Turn with a nice phazing Dragon Tail.

Disruption is a great way to diversify our offenses as well, but with our typing, we might have to forgo our Dragon STAB entirely (much like Astrolotl.) A Bug attack + 1 or 2 coverage moves and then disruption through Taunt or Compound Eyes Hypnosis gives us a great way to deny Teleporters from playing the game and force them to make a less favourable hard swap, or to punish other Pokemon that get Turned or Switched in with Sleep. This also let's us shut down a lot of walls that would get thrown in or would try to stay in against us, such as Toxapex, Tomohawk, or Blissey in a rather unique way. It is worth mentioning that a Taunt can also help us stop slower threats like Azumarill or switch ins like Cawmodore from setting up against us.

Draining Moves are also probably a given. Not only is one of the more common physical bug STAB options Leech Life, having this as an option allows us to consider forgoing Heavy Duty Boots for a different item such as a Choice Band (for bigger damage) or Assault Vest (turns 2HKOs into 3HKOs before healing.)

> Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role

Neutralizing Gas + Ground Coverage is powerful, helping us scare out Equilibra and Rotom, in addition to others who get hit hard by ground type coverage naturally like Zeraora, Toxapex, and Excadrill.

Electric is another interesting option. Neutralizing Gas lets us hit Volt Aborbers like Cawmodore, while Compound Eyes lets us throw out the 110 BP Thunder with higher accuracy. This adds a bunch of pokemon like Mandibuzz, Tomohawk, Cawmodore, and Toxapex once again onto the list of Pokemon that should be scared of us.

Fighting is a popular choice I see come up here and there. It is the only typing that lets us hit Blissey SE, and it also helps us give Steels like Equilibra a run for their money... But I think that there are more efficient typings or moves that help us with these options.

It might not be the best, but I am a fan of Rock coverage as well. In addition to breaking through Flying types, it crunches other Bugs as well as Fire and Ice types. We already have choices above for Fire, Flying, or Ice through Ground, Electric or Fighting, but Rock gives us a little more choice in covering this distribution. Compound Eyes Stone Edge could be a potent choice in helping us broaden our coverage options and leave the opponent fearful of switching into us.

Overall, I think that having a good variety of coverage options does help us with our concept. The opponent will be left wondering on what is and isn't safe to switch in based on what coverage typings we could be throwing out at them. Togekiss would ordinarily be safe unless its a Compound Eyes Thunder Team, while Equilibra can be a safe switch in against that but gets destroyed by NGas Earthquake.

> What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

Taunt Stallbreaker is nice. The other posts have talked about it enough that I have nothing more to say.

Rather than mixed, I think we can put in work well as a Physical or Special Wallbreaker, or even as a sweeper. Coming in against a Burned Guts user or a Teleporter and using that turn to set up a Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance will make us a terrifying threat and helps us punish pivots through sheer force.

Suggested Archetypes:
Taunt Stallbreaker
Wallbreaker
Setup Sweeper

 

[Deck Knight]

Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

Disruption and Draining Moves are the most natural courses we can take with CAP 28. Neutralizing Gas combined with Sleep, Taunt, Encore, or Trick/Magic Room to eliminate pivot attempts or troublesome items is right up our alley. Strong Priority is also in our wheelhouse. We should make pivoting as punishing as possible for most pivots and force them to hard switch as often as possible.

Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?

Complements to Bug:
Bug has a lot of good defensive resists, Poison, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, and Steel. There is almost no overlap in the weaknesses of these types in and of themselves, but most of the good Pokemon in the metagame share subtypings that can be exploited. Some Pokemon are neutral to our STAB, but this coverage greatly improves the matchup.

Electric coverage hits Toxapex, Arghonaught, Togekiss, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, and Corviknight/Skarmory
Ground coverage hits Toxapex, Astrolotl, Equilibra, Excadrill, Rotom-Formes, Cyclohm, Krilowatt and Zeraora
Psychic coverage hits Toxapex, Arghonaut, Kerfluffle, Mollux, Amoonguss
Fire coverage hits Corviknight/Skarmory, Equilibra, Excadrill, Jumbao, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn
Fighting coverage hits Blissey, Equilibra, Excadrill, Ferrothorn

Complements to Dragon:
Dragon is resisted by Steel and Fairies are Immune. There is some concern over maintaining Fairies as checks at least, however many Steel types appear on our pressure list.

Ground coverage hits Toxapex, Equilibra, Excadrill, Rotom-Formes, Krilowatt, and Zeraora
Fire coverage hits Corviknight/Skarmory, Equilibra, Excadrill, Jumbao, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn
Fighting coverage hits Blissey, Equilibra, Excadrill, Ferrothorn

Although Fighting feels "essential" for Blissey, CAP 28 does actually 2HKO it with Max Attack Megahorn, it's kind of surprising how little Fighting covers in conjunction with Bug, but with Poison, Fairy, Flying and Ghost resisting both typrs, it's actually fairly suboptimal. Many of the best Steels and Fairies are actually neutral to Fighting to boot. Ground is incredible coverage for both STABs, especially with Neutralizing Gas, and has few interactions with Fairy checks. I also like Fire quite a bit, for providing additional muscle against Amoonguss and Ferrothorn, whose bulk and status options can be aggravating.

What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

One archetype I definitely do not want to pursue is a stat-up sweeper, specifically with either of the two notorious type-specific"Dance" sweepers. We may be just slow enough to keep from getting out of hand, if an opponent runs Scarf, but I fear with such powerful boosting moves we wouldn't end up being a Roadblock, we'd end up being a Steamroller. Other boosts I could support (independent +2 boosts), but not powerful, dedicated Speed + Offense boosters. Those kind of moves just aren't very relevant to the concept. Breakers are fine, a Sweeper we should avoid.

Archetypes I'd support:
Disruption Stallbreaker
Wallbreaker
Priority Cleaner

 

[Zephyri]

Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

Ight, i feel like General Offensive Pressure (ergo interesting setup) along with Strong Priority is the way we want to go here. Throughout the CaP, something that's bugged me is... why would i run this mon when I could run other, better wallbreakers and cleaners, like Astro, Dragapult, Specs Hydreigon, Paj and heck, even Haxorus. And i think interesting setup along with priority would give us that niche. By interesting setup i refer to options that have low-distribution, like QD and Shift Gear.

Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?

I think Ground coverage might be the best option for us, purely because of the fact that it hits both equi and toxapex with SE. I'm honestly not completely sure about Electric though, mainly because of the way that interacts with Togekiss and Azumarill, pokemon that are on our counters list. And i REALLY don't like Thunder, mainly because of the fact that it doesn't seem to help support our concept in any way, and only serves the purpose of giving CEyes more use. Fighting's interesting because of it's interaction with Blissey, but as Deck said, we already 2hko blissey with megahorn.

 

[Rabia]

1. I am very much in favor of something that just tries to blast through switch-ins with strong attacks. I think if we're trying to make this CAP "anti-pivot," then the best way to go about this is punish the act of pivoting. Our attacking stats definitely lend this Pokemon to this role, and I think by backing up CAP 28 with strong STAB and coverage moves, we can escalate this role. This could be as simple as an all-out attacker, but I also think there's merit to quziel's point about "Taunt stallbreaker" being an interesting option; this in general would make CAP 28 a great option against defensive options as a whole. I'd also like to extend this (and recall earlier conversations) to "Substitute stallbreaker," which doesn't shut down such foes as easily but similarly takes advantage of passive Pokemon without a way to break the Substitute.

I also do think pivoting moves (probably would be U-turn in this case) should be considered for CAP 28; pivoting yourself is a great way to punish foes that pivot, and I think slow pivoting versus a Kerfluffle that Parting Shots would be a really interesting interaction that rewards aggressive play.

2. I think Fighting is a great option that has been brought up repeatedly throughout the process. A move like Superpower or Close Combat would ease the matchup against Blissey, which is one people have been worried about consistently, and help against Steel-types like Equilibra that don't take neutral damage from one of our STAB moves. You could argue for Electric coverage if you wanted to hit foes like Mandibuzz, Tomohawk, and Toxapex harder, but I don't view it as necessary personally.

3. As said earlier, utility move + three attacks (where utility move = something like Taunt or Substitute) would be a more unique route that explores somewhat dated concepts. This can be contrasted with all-out attacker, which would attempt to say "hey, stop trying to switch around between your Pokemon because I'm going to hit your shit super hard if you do."

 

[Amamama]

Looking at the final post of Concept Assessment, what methods presented would be best pursued with the current context of CAP 28? Are there any not present there that could be worth exploring?

• General offensive pressure
  With our set of offenses I think this is a given. That said our STAB combination lacks. Having Strong coverage options is necessary to not be walled by every other Pokémon on the opposing team. All-out Attacking sets will exist and I feel like despite our Hazards weakness Choice sets should be possible.
• Substitute
  I am still a fan of Substitute to actualize strategies that help our concept. But I don’t think that this mon lends itself particularly well to Subs so I don’t think it is really necessary building sets around it.
• Phazing (Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, etc.)
  Similar to Sub I don’t think we are built to be phazing for an entire game. I can see phazing on sets with really good three move coverage, so
• Disruption moves (Taunt and Encore)
  These look like our best options to deny defensive play against 28, especially moves like toxic from Blissey and Toxapex as well as their recovery. Taunt is probably our best safe option but I would like to test sleep moves because they mean a hard stop to teleport and can cripple a Hard switchin.
• Strong priority
  Priority moves are our best way to improve or Pressure Matchups against faster and frailer mons, that would like to take advantage of our middling speed tier. So these are definitely interesting.
• Draining moves (Giga Drain, Drain Punch, etc.)
  Draining moves will Provide 28 with some more longevity while still keeping up pressure against our targets and not loosing as much momentum. That said, I believe, that also strong recovery moves can provide us with a more reliable source of health for the cost of loosing momentum.
• Hazards
  While hazards haven’t been as strong since the advent of Heavy duty boots, they are still a very good way to punish repeated switching.
• Set-Up
  Last but very much not least, I think Set up is very important. Increasing our offensive presence against would be walls is one way to ensure, that the opponent cannot afford to pivot freely.

Due to CAP28's STAB combination, coverage is likely. What coverage types would be best to help CAP28 fulfill its role?

The coverage types that look most promising are Electric and Ground type coverage.

Electric gives us option against defensive Pokémon like and , while Ground targets As well as the appliances on Neutralizing Gas sets and .

Psychic type coverage is interesting as well to expand the list of mons we threaten, hitting and hard.

I think we should only give one of Psychic or Electric though, because that helps preserve some of our best counters in either or.

Even though we beatwith our physical stabs, I think strong physical Fighting type coverage will ease or matchup against it even more.

Because of more recent developments in the meta I think Dark or Ghost type moves could help us out. While they don’t target different pivots then Bug Stab, they give a way to work around ghost types that have been rising since Libras bulletproof nerf.

Lastly Water type coverage could be a way to build upon our ground type resistance.

What set archetypes would be best to pursue for CAP 28?

I think Aside from All-out Attacker, physical as well as special set-up and taunt/sleep disruption are the most promising set archetypes.
I think offensive Hazard setter a la megachomp is also worth exploring.
Lastly, even though I am reluctant myself, I think we should look into what pivoting moves can do for us, since active pivoting happens to be one of the best countermeasures to pivoting.

 

[Reviloja753]

I have to sleep so I am going to keep this brief.

I believe our best options for type coverage are Electric and Ground type moves, as those best hit common bulky pivots we wish to target like Toxapex, Tomohawk, Equilibra if NGas, and the likes of Corviknight. Fighting coverage is good to hit Blissey and while Megahorn 2HKOs with 252+ Megahorn, I do think that especially when someone wishes to be able to outpace the likes of Rotom-Heat that a speed boosting nature is crucial. We could make due without Fighting-type coverage but I’m on the fence about it. If people feel okay with Megahorn killing Blissey while not outspeeding Rotom-Heat, or if I’m just wrong about the significance of a speed boosting nature, Fighting coverage seems fine. Psychic coverage also works but is less efficient than Electric in what we want to hit and unlike Electric means if we drop Bug Buzz in favor of it we can’t hit Slowking, which I would argue is an issue.

In terms of ideas from CA/roles, I feel Disruption Wallbreaker and Special Set-Up are our two best choices. The former option has a boat-load of options from Taunt to potentially Compound Eyes sleep moves, and I feel is a natural course to take for this CAP. Special set-up takes a different approach to stopping pivots in making us a threat to deal with before holes are punched into your team. I prefer special set-up to physical set-up purely for the fact that the likes of Dragon Dance or Swords Dance just feel unnecessary when we already have base 135 Attack. While some have made an argument about Haxorus, we have what basically is a better version of Mold Breaker and a STAB that is stronger and more reliable than Dragon Claw and Outrage respectively. Furthermore, special set-up better hits physically defensive Pokémon like Tomohawk, especially depending on our coverage. I’m positive there are more articulate ways of forming this argument, but I’m tired and often struggle to articulate my feelings so that’s what you’re getting.

Draining, while good on paper, to me is not something we can really build around with this type and stats. Leech Life in terms of power is a major downgrade to Megahorn, and more importantly, not only does Bug have loads of resistances against it, but we for once have sub-par bulk to where more often than not I don’t believe the healing saves you. If there is some calculation out there that shows Leech Life saving us I’ll change my tune, but for now I just feel this is not the mon to use draining. If we were bulkier or were Fighting-type and discussing Drain Punch I may have been more on board with this, but not in this timeline.

Phazing is a role I think I could live with, but I do believe that this role basically makes us complete bait to any breakers on the opponent’s team that a team would want to pivot into anyway, such as Urshifu. Again, this is not a completely bad idea as more passive pivoting strategies or a team relying on purely Volt Switch won’t exactly appreciate Dragon Tail, but I do feel that unlike the two main roles identified above, this one is less likely to be effective in the long run and as such should not be given too much thought.

Substitute to me just feels impractical with our poor STAB coverage. We simply cannot get away with running two attacking moves on this Pokémon, even if you combine Substitute with Nasty Plot. If we had better STABs I’d consider this a very interesting method of shielding ourselves from the breakers pivots like Slowking go into for a turn to bop them, but realistically with this STAB combo, even with Electric and Ground coverage, you’re going to have prominent threats that just squat on it. The best you could do is Dragon + Ground, but that still has Corviknight just squat on it. We also aren’t that bulky to where if we can’t cleanly OHKO a breaker we can still not be blown into the stratosphere after our Substitute inevitably breaks. I just feel this one is a fool’s errand.

Finally, I’d like to discuss hazards. While on paper, this seems like a smart idea to just discourage constantly switching by constantly taking hazard damage, the problem is most pivots are running Heavy-Duty Boots nowadays. While not all of them do, such as Tomohawk or Toxapex, I feel that giving hazards is at that point excessive to deal with them when coverage can do that just fine. I get the appeal, but I personally do not see hazards as our way forward.

TL;DR: Our two best roles for this CAP are Disruption Wallbreaker and Special Set-Up. Any other role mentioned in this thread is at best a small niche to go for and at worst impossible to work with given what we currently have with CAP28. Electric, Ground and maybe Fighting are the best types to give for coverage.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Alright, thanks for the great discussion so far!

One thread that has become clear at the moment is that Stallbreaking is a route CAP 28 would like to pursue. Considering our primary targets in the fat Teleport mons like Slowking and Blissey as well as a renewed interest in taking down Toxapex give a stallbreaker set some very serious weight, especially since disruption moves like Taunt and possibly sleep-inducers are a solidly requested option so far. While we still have a lot of discussion to go, I feel comfortable saying that a Disruption Stallbreaker is of the archetypes that has been accepted.

Wallbreaker is a common option as well, and discussion so far has made it clear that sheer offensive prowess is expected to be our way of breaking through these fat pivots. Its a little vague when people mention Wallbreaker whether or not it is referring to physical or special wallbreakers, but discussion has hinted that we could work well as both. With that in mind, I feel comfortable adding both Physical Wallbreaker and Special Wallbreaker to the list, although the latter is a lower priority for the reason stated below.

Speaking of special, Special Setup is an option that utilizes the solid possibilities to punch through what we need. Setup in general is a set of moves that needs to be handled carefully and tested thoroughly, but the support that this archetype has gotten in thread is not something to ignore. The argument of how this compares to Special Wallbreaker is there, but I would like to keep both options open. Special Setup is a set archetype that is approved, and is higher in the priority bracket then Special Wallbreaker considering its more blatant support.

Finally, various different supportive moves have been mentioned throughout the thread, most particularly hazards. I believe these moves have a place on CAP28, and are distinct enough moves to not find a place onto the previous sets. I would like to add a broad Support archetype to the list, although it should be noted this set is very much a low priority.

With that wrapped up, here are our archetypes in order of importance to CAP28:
Disruption Stallbreaker
Physical Wallbreaker
Special Setup
Special Wallbreaker
Support (low priority)

Now, before we open up move submission, I think it is important we understand what learn what specific elements make up each archetype. I would like to open up a small section where we dissect how moves should be layed out for each archetype, as that will help us better fill out moves when we delve into moves proper. We are still not submitting or adding moves at this time. Here is a dissection created by the TLT using Rotom-Heat as an example.

Rotom-Heat (Offensive Pivot)
STAB Moves: 2-3
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 0

We will be doing this for all five archetypes all at once (separate dissection for each archetype), so if you have an idea as to how any one archetype should be dissected in a set, feel free to post so now! Make sure to make it clear which category of move (STAB, Coverage, Setup, Disruption, Utility, etc.) you are referring to. Happy posting!

 

[Reviloja753]

Special Setup
STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 1
Coverage Moves: 0-2

This is for a likely special setup set that one could be submitted. The setup move is obviously crucial, but the other moves are pretty much a grab bag for what you need. I do believe that going without a STAB, at least for this set, is not efficient, especially when Bug STAB is our way around Slowking (and Slowking is why we're a bug to begin with), and a boosted STAB Draco Meteor can hurt. I do believe that dropping one STAB is reasonable, specifically our Bug STAB being dropped is possible in favor of another coverage move in order to get better type coverage overall, especially considering the coverage types discussed earlier in the thread. I do believe if someone wished to, they could also drop a STAB for a disruption move (which is not status ailments, as cleared up by LucarioOfLegends and Mx in the Discord just FYI for everyone confused like I was), although I feel this is less likely. In terms of status conditions, I believe that having the ability to run a status over disruption can also be an option, specifically sleep for Compound Eyes sets, although other options are obviously possible. I want to make it clear, however, that a set of Setup/disruption/status/STAB is just a set that will not be viable. Due to it being a setup set it can potentially rely on two attacks only, but asking any setup Pokemon to rely on a single attack is rather absurd.

Disruption Stallbreaker
STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 1
Status Moves: 0
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

I believe that on a Disruption Stallbreaker set, because of our poor offensive STABs, that running 3 attacks + disruption is crucial for success. Special setup can maybe get away with running only two attacks, especially if it relies on a status. However, as this archetype (and every other archetype we have) does not and in my opinion should not be able to set up, three attacks are needed to not have a number of threats wall us. I do believe running a single STAB is preferable for better type coverage, but running two STABs and one coverage move is not an inherently bad idea. Overall, this one is pretty straightforward.

Here are the other roles we have that I feel are less important than the two above done in rapid-fire.

Physical Wallbreaker is one that I don't fully understand the difference between it and Disruption Stallbreaker besides just being purely physical, so I guess if I have to say something for it just make it simply 2 STABs and 2 Coverage moves, or just make it identical to Disruption Stallbreaker layout depending on if we get some other form of utility besides disruption.

Special Wallbreaker is a similar story but with Special Setup instead, and I don't know if this one is even that needed. If we are going with it then just follow the same instructions as I gave for Physical Wallbreaker.

Support just feels like one we can just kind of drop, considering we are not that bulky nor are we that fast to where I feel we can properly do this at all. I mean I guess it could work with two utility moves and 0-2 STABs/coverage, but idk.

 

[dex]

Physical Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 1-2

CAP28 will excel at being a Physical Wallbreaker. However, given it's poor STAB combination, it is quite likely that it will forego Dragon STAB in favor of more coverage or a non-damaging move. I list it at 1-2 because Compound Eyes gives CAP28 reliable Dragon Rush, which is perhaps enough of an incentive to use it. I would expect there to be 1 non-damaging move on most Physical Wallbreaker sets, be it Taunt, Sleep Powder, or Swords Dance/Coil/physically offensive boost that isn't Dragon Dance. Each provide CAP28 with different uses that improve different matchups. Most likely, however, one of Taunt or setup will be used. Coverage is going to be key to CAP28's ability to deal with the numerous physically defensive checks against it. Earthquake and Fighting type coverage come to mind, but dealing with is going to be a huge issue for a Physical Wallbreaker set on CAP28. Zen Headbutt is an option to help fix this, though it doesn't do that much without chip or Stealth Rock. All that being said, Coverage is going to be incredibly important to a Physical Wallbreaker set, so I see the most likely scenario as being STAB: 1, Non-Damaging:1, Coverage:2.

 

[Amamama]

Disruption Stallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

Usually one STAB move will be better, but having STAB access to the utility moves leech life and dragon tail, might lead to a 2 STAB Set.
Depending on which disruption moves we geht access to, this set will either have one utility or one status move.
Recovery could take up the place of a coverage option to stay healthy during long games, but 2 Move coverage is propbably almost always better, as we aren’t too bulky and generally can make more use of our Offensive presence.
As for offensive bias I believe physical will have an easier time with this archetype, due to its overall higher damage output and more drawback free move options.
That said Mixed sets could offer a greater versatility against different walls in the tier.

Physical Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 2-3

A four attacks set with 1 or 2 STABs and 2-3 coverage moves is an easy guess with our physical prowess.
I believe that Utility in The form of the likes of Knock Off, leech Life or a status move can find a place on these sets.
Also I think physical set up to boost through the bulkiest Walls and also Special Set up+Special STAB or Coverage for lure sets could have a place on this archetype.

Special Setup

STAB Moves: 0-2
Utility Moves: 0
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 1
Coverage Moves: 1-2

Set up is of course necessary. Most likely one STAB move has to suffice
Coverage will be essential to boast through defensive answers to our STABs
Physical coverage could be an option to not be helpless against the really fat Specail walls.
I could see a Sleep+Set-up Set depending on which coverage we get for a 2 Move set.

Special Wallbreaker

As our Special Attack is lower and our Special STAB weaker respectively more unreliable, i think this Archetype will mostly rely on Set-up, but a 2 or three Special moves + Physical coverage and/or utility set could happen.

Support (low priority)

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

This set would most likely look like different Garchomp sets. Again most likely one STAB and Two Coverage moves, Mostly probably physical or mixed will be best.
I think the best support option will be Hazard setting.
Since we are pretty frail and not too fast, probably without access to pivoting, I think Stealth Rock or Webs are more beneficial, depending on the Team archetype the set should fit.
I think recovery in some form might be an option here as well to make us more reliable, but It will be hard to fit depending on or coverage Options.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Alright thank you for the discussion. I think with what discussion we've had I feel comfortable locking in the following objections.

Archetype Dissections

Disruption Stallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

(This version chosen to allow possible use of status as a method of disruption, although status is not at all implied or guaranteed because of this decision.)

Physical Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 2-3

(This version chosen to allow CAP to drop a STAB move to run 3 coverage attacks, a possibility that is likely considering CAP28's sub-par offensive STAB)

Special Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 1-2

(After a bit of simmering on these archetypes, I have chosen to mesh together Special Setup and Special Wallbreaker into one cohesive set, as having both is somewhat redundant since their difference is entirely based on having a setup move. Since they both have the intention of wallbreaking on the special side, they will be dubbed "Special Wallbreaker".)

Support (low priority)

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 1-2
Status Moves: 0
Setup Moves: 0
Coverage Moves: 1-2

With that all sorted, I think it is finally time to open up move and set submissions for all archetypes. You can submit moves both individually and together as a set (the latter through the instructions given in the OP), and if the move(s) get enough support I will approve it. If a move is opposed I will instead put it on the blacklist, where it can no longer be discussed. If we do not gain a consensus on certain moves by the end of thread, then those moves will be put to a poll.

Currently there are no moves explicitly blacklisted at the moment, so if you have a move you think you would be a great fit for CAP28, please tell us here!

Edit: A small little reminder that we do have the CAP28 Showdown Test Server for use in testing these moves, found here. I highly encourage you to test out moves/sets there as well as gather replays for evidence as well. They will help your argument greatly.

 

[dex]

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Mixed Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat/Earthquake
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

• This set aims at dismantling specific pivots that might otherwise be good into CAP28, namely and .
• Thunderbolt is a high chance 2HKO on Tomo with rocks ((42.5 - 50.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock or guaranteed with Life Orb (55.3 - 65.2%)), while CC (62.7 - 74%) and EQ (52.4 - 61.7%) provide the same for Libra (EQ has a 97.7% chance of a 2HKO but provides better overall coverage), making neither a "clean" switch-in. This provides the player with the ability to make reads to make the most of CAP28's stallbreaking potential utilizing its excellent mixed attacking stats.
• Megahorn is in place for consistent damage, and for picking up OHKOs on , , and a 2HKO on Tangrowth
• Taunt is useful in the and matchup, though CAP28 needs to be wary of Seismic Toss chip and Scald Burn.
• This set predictably struggles with fairy types, particularly . Scarf also forces it out, but can't come in on a predicted T-Bolt more than once. Additionally, bulky has a very good matchup into this set. Finally, the Rotom forms do quite well into this set if it is running CC.
• Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-10

 

[Darquezze]

Special Setup
Name: Nasty Plot
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Thunder
Move 3: Close Combat/Focus Blast
Move 4: Nasty Plot
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/52 Spe
Nature: Naive/Timid

This set is focused on using powerful coverage that's boosted by our Compound Eyes ability.
Nasty Plot is the boosting move which helps against breaking walls.
Draco Meteor is our strong STAB move.
Thunder is there to hit Tomohawk and Toxapex.
Close Combat helps to deal with Blissey and Chansey and are both guaranteed 2HKOs but +2 Focus Blast on both Blissey and Chansey also 2HKO and should not be overlooked.
Here are the calcs comparing Close Combat and Focus Blast on Chansey and Blissey:
0 Atk Life Orb CAP28 Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 385-455 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb CAP28 Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 398-468 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Life Orb CAP28 Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 528-621 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb CAP28 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 481-567 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for my 2nd set:
Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Banded Compound Eyes
Move 1: Megahorn/Close Combat
Move 2: Dragon Rush/Close Combat
Move 3: Earthquake/High Horsepower
Move 4: Thunder/Zing Zap
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Naive/Jolly

This set focuses on trying to use Compound Eyes on a physical/mixed set without having to use a boosting move.
Megahorn and Dragon Rush are both strong STAB moves that gets boosted accuracy from Compound Eyes, however some may find one or the other underwhelming due to the pokemon around in the meta so Close Combat could replace one of those moves.
Earthquake is a solid coverage move that hits many pokemon neutrally and hits Toxapex and Astrolotl super effectively. However due to Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain, the move is weakened and High Horsepower can patch that issue whether Rillaboom is a teammate or the opponent.
Thunder is a strong move that hits Tomohawk and Toxapex super effectively but is not boosted by the Choice Band as a burn from Toxapex could be a concern but Zing Zap is also good electric type coverage and is boosted by the Choice Band. The issue being it won't hit Bold Defensive Tomohawk as hard as Thunder and could be crippled by burns.

 

[Reviloja753]

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: CAP28
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder / Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat/Earthquake
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots/ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

I believe Thunder should be our choice of Electric-type coverage over just Thunderbolt because I just feel that relying on rocks for dealing with Tomohawk is not a good idea, and the fact that Toxapex takes a pitiful amount of damage from Thunderbolt and Earthquake for that matter, so while I think Thunderbolt could be ran since it can get the job done and isn't completely absurd, Thunder should be an option too. With Toxapex, not even Rocks make Thunderbolt a 2HKO.

4 SpA Flygon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 176-208 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Flygon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Special Setup
Name: Nasty Plot
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Thunder / Bug Buzz
Move 3: Close Combat/Focus Blast
Move 4: Nasty Plot
Ability: Neutralizing Gas / Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/52 Spe
Nature: Naive/Timid Hasty

I dropped Bug Buzz in here because while it does less to the likes of Toxapex and Tomohawk, it improves the matchup against Slowking. Draco Meteor actually can OHKO both Tomohawk and have a good chance to OHKO Toxapex at +2, but I can see the want to not lose the boosts for that. I believe Thunder is crucial to physical sets as Close Combat is to special sets, which is why I did not just remove Thunder altogether. Bug Buzz still has its merits, though. Neutralizing Gas, even with Draco Meteor and Thunder, is the main reason to really run this Pokemon, and as such is the primary option for the ability. Life Orb, as appealing as it seems, is just not really worth running in most cases over boots. If you really don't worry about hazards, Life Orb could still work though, I guess. Hasty is better than Naive for CAP28 since our defense is already low, and the special defense is basically the only bulk we have to make us have some Pokemon to come in on and all. I do want to state for the record that I believe Nasty Plot, along with the set above, should be the primary sets of CAP28. I just do not see the real value in going too crazy with niche sets with this one. The only other path I could see is perhaps a sleep move with Nasty Plot or something, but I otherwise do not feel we have to make fifty different sets for this Pokemon.

 

[snake]

Physical Wallbreaker

STAB Moves: 1-2
Utility Moves: 0-1
Status Moves: 0-1
Setup Moves: 0-1
Coverage Moves: 2-3

(This version chosen to allow CAP to drop a STAB move to run 3 coverage attacks, a possibility that is likely considering CAP28's sub-par offensive STAB)

Ok, I'll bite.

Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 2: Megahorn
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake / High Horsepower
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Choice Band should be considered as a power ceiling for the Pokemon. Dragon Hammer (not quite signature) is all-around the best STAB we could possibly give CAP28 (excluding Dragon Darts which is actually signature). It hits some worrying calcs, so if it needs to be swapped out with Dragon Claw, that's perfectly acceptable. I'd like to just present what Dragon Hammer does so that we can make an informed decision. I would like to point out, though, that CAP28 is relatively frail and has to give up Heavy-Duty boots to achieve some of these scarier-looking calcs. The set could run Jolly, but Adamant hits some super sweet rolls!

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tomohawk: 238-282 (57.4 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 206-243 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Equilibra: 420-496 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 340-402 (104.6 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Yanmega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 209-247 (67.6 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Coil / Bulk Up
Move 1: Coil / Bulk Up
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake / High Horsepower
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Something about making an Intimidate-proof Swords Dance sweeper doesn't sit well with me, but Coil or Bulk Up should be pretty neat moves. I don't see how you deviate too much from Dragon / Ground / Fighting because we need to hit Corviknight, Equilibra, and Toxapex, unless we don't get one of these coverage types. Again, Dragon Hammer vs Dragon Claw reasoning would be good to compile in this thread so that we make an informed decision regarding our STAB options. The defense boost is nice to patch up CAP28's lower physical defense, but I don't think it's too helpful against its physically offensive checks:

68 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 268-324 (86.1 - 104.1%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 390-458 (125.4 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega on a critical hit: 444-523 (142.7 - 168.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (whoa it's a crit)
0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 93-111 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 139-165 (44.6 - 53%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 234-276 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Jewvia]

Special (Setup) Wallbreaker
Name: Sleepy Setup
Move 1: Quiver Dance / Nasty Plot
Move 2: Sleep Powder
Move 3: Bug Buzz
Move 4: Blizzard
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Sleep Powder puts the enemy to sleep. Compound Eyes makes it consistent. We then get a free Setup following that.
• Quiver Dance gives us Speed over Nasty Plot. We will either get 1 or 2 uses of setup free. If the opponent tries to pivot, we get a free SpA boost. If we put the opponent to sleep and they need to swap out again, we get a second free setup.
• Bug Buzz is Bug STAB. Best option in the pool, and also extremely common.
• Sleep Powder is only resisted by Grass types and Overcoat. These threats are either covered by our boosted Bug Buzz, or covered by a hard hitting coverage option.
• Blizzard helps us with Mandibuzz and other Flying types, as well as Grass types who resist bug (such as Amoongus or Jumbao). That way, if a threat switches in that we can't put to sleep, we can try to take them out of the fight instead.
• Blizzard is boosted by Compound Eyes, becoming a reliable hard hitting move rather than a 70% gamble that it would be on Neutralizing Gas sets.
• Downside: We have 2 attacks, Bug and Ice. This leaves us with some unchecked matchups like Rotom, Blissey, or Toxapex.

Disruption Stallbreaker
Name: Taunt Tail
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Dragon Tail
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Nature: Adamant

• Taunt stops a lot of stally moves like Recover/Protect. It also cancels Teleport and prevents the ability of using status moves like Toxic/Thunder Wave. It does so much to help disrupt our biggest threats like Blissey or The Pex.
• Leech Life is Bug STAB. Its reliable, its common, and it heals us. This is very helpful for those times we get hit by a SR or a burn or something.
• Earthquake is Ground coverage. High BP ground move that helps us hit a lot of things that we want to break through, such as Toxapex, Equilibra (NGas beats Levitate), Astrolotl, or pretty much anything with Volt Switch.
• Dragon Tail is a good way to disrupt pivots too. If a faster foe Volt Switches or U-Turns out, we can just hit whoever they threw in with Dragon Tail, and force someone unwanted back out. Phazing is a very good way to shut down switchers.
• Downside: Our only option against Flying types is to scare them off with Dragon Tail. Mandibuzz Foul Play or Tomohawk Hurricane might kill us, and Togekiss WILL kill us, which is why we have that 252 HP EV. Its the only thing keeping Mandibuzz/Tomohawk from getting an OHKO.

 

[Deck Knight]

I will submit a double status set for discussion.

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: "Double Status" Disruption Stallbreaker
Move 1: Hypnosis
Move 2: Encore / Taunt
Move 3: Dragon Rush
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

Compound Eyes affords CAP 28 the ability to run a unique subset of moves that work well together to slow pivoting strategies to a crawl. Compound Eyes boosts Hypnosis to a reasonable 78% accuracy, and since it isn't a powder move it will affect Grass types and Overcoat Mandibuzz. Encore allows CAP to burn a Future Sight or Doom Desire turn if it switches in on them, before a foe can Teleport, but also punishes slower setup or other moves like Defog or Stealth Rock which are only effective on their first use. Taunt by contrast shuts down passive healing and Teleport attempts but can't scramble Future Sight / Doom Desire.

The EVs allow Thunder, which is now 97% accurate, to reliably 2HKO Slowking and non-Baneful Bunker Toxapex. Thunder's 30% paralysis chance, Dragon Rush's 20% flinch chance, and Hypnosis' pressure to preserve appropriate switchins allows this mixed set to function effectively as a very frustrating stopgap to passive attempts to Teleport away.

There is, I suppose, an argument that Sleep Powder could make a very similar spread run with Neutralizing Gas, but Thunder and Dragon Rush's power buffer over Dragon Claw / Thunderbolt is a significant boon. While this particular set in ineffective against Equilibra and Excadrill in regards to damage, the fast Sleep opportunity combined with Encore / Taunt makes anything other than direct attacks very punishable. I had considered other coverage moves in the last slot, but Thunder provides the best combined coverage, effect synergy, and target/threat relevance between two moves.

Calculations:
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Rotom-Wash: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 262-309 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 186-222 (44.2 - 52.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 314-372 (96.6 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 372-438 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Snaelstrom Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 384-452 (124.2 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

216 SpA Snaelstrom Thunder vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 214-252 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Snaelstrom Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Snaelstrom Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Snaelstrom Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 258-304 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[quziel]

I guess this fits er, special wallbreaker?

Special Wallbreaker (Maybe Support)
Name: Technically Mixed FI
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Thunder / Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: First Impression
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild

Fairly simple set; use Draco + Thunder to nail literally like 70% of the meta, CC to hit Blissey, and First Impression to nail anything faster. Even uninvested you're still hitting Shifu for 43%. This mon has very few switchins beyond Aegislash and Kerfluffle, but that's a good thing, esp for a mon that's got such meh bulk. I'll edit in replays once I get them. Unsure where to slot this set, but its full spA invest, and we have both Physical wallbreaker and Special Wallbreaker listed.

calcs

4 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 160-189 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 258-304 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 292-344 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 240-284 (56.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 408-480 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Equilibra: 218-258 (53.4 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kerfluffle: 134-158 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Both: 90-107 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-9-aol2t4ife8nbqx3n3o050mjbqb7ccxbpw
(vs G-Luke)

Support
Name: Stealth Rock
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: First Impression
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Lonely

Rocks are good, Rocks are very good, Coverage is iffy, but First Impression is a load of utility, especially forcing out fast/frail stuff eg Zeraora and Urshifu (ish), Close Combat + Thunder is the best 2 move coverage I could find for this mon, and yeah, that's about it here. The Pex matchup is gonna be really iffy, as is the Tomohawk matchup.

252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 192-226 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-----------------

General Thoughts:
We need to be very careful about giving this mon SE physical coverage vs Hawk as that makes set design and EV investments sorta scary, we can if we want, but yeah, just something to be wary about.

I really don't like Sleep Powder as it takes away about the only niche Compound Eyes could have, aka accurate sleep, and gives it to NGas as well. Giving sleep to a mon with a very strong set of attributes like 135/115/89 offenses and Ngas is just worrying. Forcing the mon to run Hypnosis to get any kind of sleep, and thus forcing Compoundeyes seems way more balanced. I am actively in support of Hypnosis and very against Sleep Powder.


------------------

Edit: This is a literal meme, but Magic Room prevents HDB from working, and thus fits on the Disruption Stallbreaker.

 

[G-Luke]

Time to anger some peeps

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Sleepy Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder
Move 3: Earthquake / Close Combat
Move 4: Hypnosis
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Expert Belt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Lonely

Ok, so why Hypnosis? Why Sleep in general? Well, our grounds for stallbreaker allowed us the option to pursue status infliction, and I am of the opinion that Sleep is one of the best ways to go about doing so. Several offensive pivots in the metagame can click their pivoting options risk free against CAP 28, and under that same breath, common Teleport users will be pressed to hard switch out. CAP 28 definitely needs a way to capitalize on that turn, by either grabbing the momentum lost against the fast pivot, or punishing the hard switch. I think Hypnosis does this splendidly, and in a non oppressive manner. Hypnosis just makes Compound Eyes be a viable option to use instead of Neutralizing Gas. In regards to the other moves -

• Megahorn is one of our most important and strongest STAB options, allowing us to score an OHKO on Slowking with minimal chip, while hitting anything that doesn't resist it pretty hard. 252 Atk Neutralising Gas Haxorus Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Slowking: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Possible damage amounts: (432, 438, 440, 446, 452, 458, 462, 468, 474, 476, 482, 488, 492, 498, 504, 510)
• Thunder is a pretty important coverage option, compressing the ability to hit targets like Toxapex, Tomohawk and Togekiss into one slot. 4 SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  Possible damage amounts: (214, 218, 220, 222, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254) 4 SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
  Possible damage amounts: (132, 134, 134, 136, 138, 140, 140, 142, 144, 146, 148, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156)
  4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  Possible damage amounts: (158, 161, 161, 163, 166, 168, 168, 170, 173, 175, 178, 178, 180, 182, 185, 187)
  4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  Possible damage amounts: (190, 192, 194, 197, 199, 202, 204, 206, 209, 211, 214, 216, 218, 221, 223, 226)
  4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 245-290 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  Possible damage amounts: (245, 250, 252, 254, 257, 259, 264, 266, 269, 271, 274, 278, 281, 283, 286, 290)
• Last slot boils down to how hard you want to hit certain targets - Earthquake gives you a chance to hit Dragapult neutrally, hits Aegislash hard and is your best bet on a Kerfluffle switch in and its generally the safest bet. Close Combat hits Blissey and Equilibra harder, however, so if you have a harder time versus these key Pokémon then it could be swapped in.
• Heavy Duty Boots is an overall great item for longevity, but seeing as this set in particular benefits from aggressive play, Expert Belt may be a desirable option. Guaranteeing the 2HKO on Pex is mighty useful as well.

Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Swords Dance Breaker
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Now, I kinda disagree with Snake here - I don't think just being immune to Intimidate makes SD suddenly be a broken beast. We still have the problems of having a less than stellar matchup versus offensive teams, while simultaneously competing versus several other Dragon type breakers already prevalent in the metagame, as we are still slower. The biggest takeway is how we bust up most walls after SD, which is fine by me given what most of the breakers in the tier are capable off anyways.
Similiar to Snake's rundown, Dragon x Fighting x Ground coverage is one of the better options we have on, being able to break past Corviknight and Tomohawk is a major boon. Megahorn may be seen to swap out over another option, but the neutral coverage here is too good to toss up here.

I also would like to heavily disagree with giving this CAP physical coverage that hits Tomohawk super effectively, as that kinda puts us in a rather tight bind in regards to the freedom of what we can do here. I also suggest that Steel and Poison coverage be frowned upon - hitting Fairies for blank super effective damage is just not necessary for this Pokemon when several means of hitting Steel types has been heavily discussed within the thread. Preserving Fairy types as natural and reliable checks to its breaking sets will be important in balancing this Pokémon.