CAP 28 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

dex

10 wolf, 3 shepherd, 1 sheep, led leopard
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Have some time today to finally post my thoughts. I'm focusing primarily on the controversial moves in the order that Zeta posted them as I believe that's roughly chronological.

TMs

Light Screen/Reflect: As others have mentioned, I don't think that these two moves are particularly flavorful or pro-concept. As such, Blacklist.
Steel Wing: While I think that Steel coverage is potentially safe, I don't think that it makes sense based on flavor, and as such recommend Blacklist.
Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Infestation: I'm not a fan of partial trapping at all. It doesn't do much to stop teleporters, but as we have seen with Astrolotl can be used to practically delete Toxapex from the game, and mind be able to do the same to others. I think we discourage pivoting strategies enough without needing to cheese teams and as such recommend that they are all placed on the Blacklist.
Acrobatics:
The flavour and potential power feels off to me, Blacklist.
Stomping Tantrum:
While we do have Earthquake which is more powerful, I don't think it's the most flavorful. Blacklist.

TRs

Hydro Pump/Surf/Liquidation: Not much to add that hasn't been said. Dodgy flavour, potentially bad relationship with C and C. Blacklist.
Sludge Bomb/Wave: While this hasn't been discussed all too extensively, in the few games I've seen, as well as due to its potential to OHKO Jumbao very easily, I think that Poison coverage is too much, even if the flavour is there. As there. Blacklist.
Encore:
Compared to Taunt I think that Encore punishes the wrong types of Pokemon, such as Set-up sweepers or hazard setters. Blacklist.
Iron Tail: While Iron Tail is at quite a high base power level, it still fails to OHKO Kerfluffle consistently, unless it is Adamant and has a Life Orb equipped. As a lure option I think it's reasonable because it doesn't hit much else that existing coverage moves don't. Allow.
Trick: Considering how successful the Choice Band set is already, and based on Astrolotl needing the move removed, I'm suggesting that we Blacklist.
Muddy Water
: Blacklist.
TSpikes/Stealth Rock: Not a fan of hazards at all, I think they distract from what we're aiming to achieve with CAP 28, and due to the presence of Heavy-Duty Boots, may not actually punish pivoting strategies as much as just using our other options. Blacklist.
Aura Sphere:
While competitively I think this move is fine, I think the flavour is pretty off. Considering that Clawitzer and Blastoise's primary flavour justification is that they use cannons, I suppose it could be allowed on that precedent. Ambivalent.
Poison Jab: As mentioned previously, Poison coverage is a bit too much because it can easily OHKO Jumbao. Blacklist.
Earth Power:
While I think that the move is competitively fine, I think the flavour is a little iffy in relation to say Earthquake, as Earth Power generally implies some kind of relationship to swamps or the earth itself, which CAP 28 doesnt in my opinion. I think that our special options are reasonable as they are. As such, Blacklist.
Flash Cannon/Iron Head: I think that steel coverage is reasonable. Iron Head and Flash Cannon both preserve Kerf and other Fairies as checks unless we're running Band or Specs. Approve.
Wild Charge:
I'm not a fan of the flavour of this. In addition, I think that Electric Coverage physically compresses a lot of what we can do and will likely force out Thunderbolt or Thunder, as well as being pretty strong on Band sets. Blacklist.
Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam:
Fairy coverage competes quite significantly with Dragon, and actually hits a lot of things we shouldn't be aiming to as much. That's ignoring any dodgy flavour. Blacklist.

Tutors/Other
Dual Wingbeat: Not a fan of flying coverage as mentioned before, and flavour isn't super large in my opinion as the elytra on CAP 28 are reasonably small. Blacklist.
Super Fang: Super Fang is great flavour for us, but I think is likely to be quite a powerful and restrictive move. It's excellent role compression by being able to chunk anything at full health for 50% which in combination with our monstrous offenses and decent coverage could allow us to become incredibly potent. Blacklist.
I just wanna say I don't get the argument about Earth Power not having the flavor backing. There are plenty of Pokemon that get it that have no relation to the ground, namely :Hydreigon:, :Poliwrath:, :Krilowatt:, and :Syclant:, not to mention a bunch of legendaries that get it as well.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
any thoughts on giving cap28 Defend Order and/or Attack Order?
Attack Order seems incredibly lackluster on cap28, considering we have access to first impression and megahorn.
While Defend Order is both incredibly passive (Being against our roal as a "roadblock") as well as boosting our defense's, which was deemed as not the main goal of this cap.

And anyways, both of these moves are Vespiquen's signature, which are shared with no other pokemon, it wouldn't make much sense flavour wise.
 
Have some time today to finally post my thoughts. I'm focusing primarily on the controversial moves in the order that Zeta posted them as I believe that's roughly chronological.

TMs

Light Screen/Reflect: As others have mentioned, I don't think that these two moves are particularly flavorful or pro-concept. As such, Blacklist.
Steel Wing: While I think that Steel coverage is potentially safe, I don't think that it makes sense based on flavor, and as such recommend Blacklist.
Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Infestation: I'm not a fan of partial trapping at all. It doesn't do much to stop teleporters, but as we have seen with Astrolotl can be used to practically delete Toxapex from the game, and mind be able to do the same to others. I think we discourage pivoting strategies enough without needing to cheese teams and as such recommend that they are all placed on the Blacklist.
Acrobatics:
The flavour and potential power feels off to me, Blacklist.
Stomping Tantrum:
While we do have Earthquake which is more powerful, I don't think it's the most flavorful. Blacklist.

TRs

Hydro Pump/Surf/Liquidation: Not much to add that hasn't been said. Dodgy flavour, potentially bad relationship with C and C. Blacklist.
Sludge Bomb/Wave: While this hasn't been discussed all too extensively, in the few games I've seen, as well as due to its potential to OHKO Jumbao very easily, I think that Poison coverage is too much, even if the flavour is there. As there. Blacklist.
Encore:
Compared to Taunt I think that Encore punishes the wrong types of Pokemon, such as Set-up sweepers or hazard setters. Blacklist.
Iron Tail: While Iron Tail is at quite a high base power level, it still fails to OHKO Kerfluffle consistently, unless it is Adamant and has a Life Orb equipped. As a lure option I think it's reasonable because it doesn't hit much else that existing coverage moves don't. Allow.
Trick: Considering how successful the Choice Band set is already, and based on Astrolotl needing the move removed, I'm suggesting that we Blacklist.
Muddy Water
: Blacklist.
TSpikes/Stealth Rock: Not a fan of hazards at all, I think they distract from what we're aiming to achieve with CAP 28, and due to the presence of Heavy-Duty Boots, may not actually punish pivoting strategies as much as just using our other options. Blacklist.
Aura Sphere:
While competitively I think this move is fine, I think the flavour is pretty off. Considering that Clawitzer and Blastoise's primary flavour justification is that they use cannons, I suppose it could be allowed on that precedent. Ambivalent.
Poison Jab: As mentioned previously, Poison coverage is a bit too much because it can easily OHKO Jumbao. Blacklist.
Earth Power:
While I think that the move is competitively fine, I think the flavour is a little iffy in relation to say Earthquake, as Earth Power generally implies some kind of relationship to swamps or the earth itself, which CAP 28 doesnt in my opinion. I think that our special options are reasonable as they are. As such, Blacklist.
Flash Cannon/Iron Head: I think that steel coverage is reasonable. Iron Head and Flash Cannon both preserve Kerf and other Fairies as checks unless we're running Band or Specs. Approve.
Wild Charge:
I'm not a fan of the flavour of this. In addition, I think that Electric Coverage physically compresses a lot of what we can do and will likely force out Thunderbolt or Thunder, as well as being pretty strong on Band sets. Blacklist.
Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam:
Fairy coverage competes quite significantly with Dragon, and actually hits a lot of things we shouldn't be aiming to as much. That's ignoring any dodgy flavour. Blacklist.

Tutors/Other
Dual Wingbeat: Not a fan of flying coverage as mentioned before, and flavour isn't super large in my opinion as the elytra on CAP 28 are reasonably small. Blacklist.
Super Fang: Super Fang is great flavour for us, but I think is likely to be quite a powerful and restrictive move. It's excellent role compression by being able to chunk anything at full health for 50% which in combination with our monstrous offenses and decent coverage could allow us to become incredibly potent. Blacklist.
I disagree that Earth Power should be blacklisted. The notion that it's limited to swamp pokemon or those with a connection to the earth is untrue when Lugia, Ho-Oh, Sunflora, Torkoal, Rayquaza (this mon is about the farthest from the earth you can be), Abomasnow, Shaymin, Hydreigon, Volcanion, Rillaboom, and Dracovish can all learn it. Earth Power has never been consistent about what can learn it so I don't see the point in limiting 28's access to it.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Hey y'all! I'll be dropping a larger post for blacklisting and approvals regarding the preliminary movepool in a couple hours, but this is your 48 hour warning until we close this thread. If you have any opinion you would like to share about moves, get it in before then.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Alright sorry for the holdup, but based on discussion so far I feel comfortable doing the following things.

Light Screen / Reflect: Fall into a similar mindset of hazards and are totally competitive in nature. People don't want them, so blacklisted.

Poison-type coverage (Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Poison Jab):
People seem comfortable saying that at least Poison-type coverage is an unhealthy coverage typing to add to CAP28, as it has a positive matchup against both Kerfluffle and Jumbao quite directly. Steel is regarded as a typing that does similar things but with far more drawbacks in an offensive typing. Blacklisting.

Steel-type coverage (Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Iron Tail):
I personally think this is fine, but there are some people who object to both Poison- and Steel-type coverage in thread and I would like to hear their argument fully as to why Steel coverage is unhealthy for CAP28. If those detractors could go in depth in their arguments against it, I think it better help convey the point. Iron Tail is also controversial due to its increased power, so a little more defense towards it being acceptable is necessary. If no opinions change by thread's end, I'll approve these moves.

Pseudo-trapping moves (Infestation, Whirlpool, Sand Tomb) Many seem to think it is a dangerous route to go, and I am inclined to agree. Some say that it does fit with the goal of stop pivots, since the regens can't do so without VoltTurn in this case, but really don't work to disprove the idea that they could have a negative effect. While I totally understand the idea that it fits concept, I would rather err on the side of caution here. Blacklisting.

Entry Hazards (Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes):
I've held off this verdict long enough, but the usual indifference towards them has turned fully into an opinion against them. It's clear we do not want these moves in our repertoire. Blacklisting.

Water-type coverage:
Most people seem to see it as an unnecessary coverage type. I am inclined to agree. Blacklisted.

Fairy-type coverage:
Same as with Water-type coverage, people see it as unnecessary. Blacklisted.

Everything else not covered I am still deciding on, so I would like some more discussion on those. Specifically I would like some more talk on Acrobatics / Dual Wingbeat, Earth Power, and Wild Charge and how much we need them.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Given Earthquake/High Horsepower is required, I don't see any reason Earth Power should be blacklisted. Same goes in the reverse direction for Wild Charge given that Thunder/Thunderbolt are required.

Blacklisting moves like this could result in an entirely unnecessary bias towards physical, special, or mixed sets based on coverage typings that doesn't seem to be particularly necessary. It's not like Wild Charge is actually better for CAP28 than Thunder/Thunderbolt. The special attacking option will generally always be better anyway. Same goes for Ground coverage, where physical will generally be better. But given that CAP28 definitely has the capacity to be a mixed attacker or full physical or full special and these coverage options don't substantially change any checks and counters, I don't see why these alternative options shouldn't be allowed.

In terms of the flying type options mentioned, I see little reason to allow them. They are inferior to Bug STAB in terms of how they handle opposing grass types and we've also already rejected Fairy type coverage (which would have added the same extra coverage, in hitting opposing fighting types). Flying type coverage should be blacklisted.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
Steel-type coverage (Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Iron Tail): I personally think this is fine, but there are some people who object to both Poison- and Steel-type coverage in thread and I would like to hear their argument fully as to why Steel coverage is unhealthy for CAP28. If those detractors could go in depth in their arguments against it, I think it better help convey the point. Iron Tail is also controversial due to its increased power, so a little more defense towards it being acceptable is necessary. If no opinions change by thread's end, I'll approve these moves.
My lack of support for strong Steel-type coverage mainly came down to how it negatively affects Fairies as our primary answer, given our typing. I had looked into Poison prior because it seemed less problematic, as it was redundant coverage outside of hitting Fairy-types; we already had Bug STAB for Grass, and it did nothing to possibly improve our trouble with Steels. Of course, the problem with that was Poison simply hitting more of the Fairy-types in the meta much more consistently, notably Jumbao.

Steel isn't as bad in that regard, but I still have some issues with it:
  1. It's still a way around Fairy-types, which could backfire, and makes it harder for Rock/Ice types that might want to scare 28.
  2. Steel can be spammed freely due to a lack of an immunity outside Shedinja.
  3. I'm not a fan of the haxxy nature of the most popular physical choice, Iron Head. 30% chance to flinch is decently high and I fear 28 trying to find ways to cheese past some Fairy-type checks simply by brute force. For that reason I'm much more supportive of Smart Strike, which still gives anti-Fairy coverage but is solely useful for that alone: no benefit from either of our abilities, no secondary effect. Just damage. If we want to go the route of Steel coverage, I think this is the optimal move: it's strong enough to warrant using, but not enough to be overwhelming.
Flash Cannon is the same BP as Iron Head, but given the lower SpA of 28 and the tendency for Fairy-types to have higher SpDef than PhysDef, I don't see it nearly as problematic. (I did calculations against our 4 Fairy checks/counters and found that 252+ SpA Flash Cannon never did more damage than 252 Atk Iron Head, even though the latter lacked a boosting nature.)

So, in summary, I feel we should blacklist Physical Steel coverage higher than 70 BP, and Special Steel coverage higher than 80 BP. I'm still iffy on the whole idea of access to Steel moves, but it's gotten a lot of support throughout the past couple days.
 
Hey everyone! Now that we're less than 24 hours away from deadline, I'd like to give everyone an update regarding our preliminary movepool, as we have decided to add a few additional moves.
Underlined = Controversial
Bold = Required

TMs
Pin Missile
Hyper Beam
Giga Impact

Dig
Screech
Safeguard
Rest
Thief
Snore
Protect

Scary Face
Giga Drain
Steel Wing
Attract
Sandstorm
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Facade
Swift
Brick Break
Payback
Assurance
Shadow Claw
Thunder Fang
Ice Fang
Fire Fang
Venoshock
Round
Acrobatics
Retaliate
Bulldoze
Electroweb
False Swipe
Air Slash
Smart Strike
Brutal Swing
Stomping Tantrum
Breaking Swipe

TR:
Sword Dance
Body Slam
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Earthquake

Agility
Focus Energy
Leech Life
Substitute

Reversal
Outrage
Endure
Sleep Talk
Megahorn

Iron Tail
Crunch
Shadow Ball
Uproar
Taunt
Superpower
Hyper Voice
Iron Defense
Dragon Claw
Bulk Up
Calm Mind
Close Combat
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
X-Scissor
Bug Buzz
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast

Earth Power
Nasty Plot
Flash Cannon
Iron Head

Work Up
Wild Charge
Drill Run
High Horsepower
Throat Chop

Tutor:
Draco Meteor
Dual Wingbeat
Corrosive Gas
Skitter Smack

Other:
Dragon Hammer
Dragon Tail
Dragon Rush
First Impression

Dual Chop
Dragon Breath
Leech Life
Lunge
Fell Stinger
Bug Bite
Poison Fang
Bite
Super Fang
Recover
Pain Split
Clear Smog
Poison Gas
Haze


Apart from removing recently blacklisted moves, this list also adds Pain Split, Clear Smog, Poison Gas, and Haze. The first one has been brief discussion as an more aggressive alternative to Recover, while the latter three are decent flavor moves that might have some fringe competitive uses. If you have any issue with these or any other moves on the list, please post them here, as this will be your last chance before our 1.0 release.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd like to echo shnowshner 's concern about Iron Head the 30% flinch rate can be very problematic for slow fairies, especially if given para support, giving us a solid chance to beat one of our weaknesses. Imo Iron Tail also deserves to be blacklisted, especially due to our compound eyes ability as well as our ability to boost our Attack, making slower ice, rock and fairy pokemon, no longer able to check cap28.

I definitely agree with smart strike as our physical steel move, and i believe flash cannon should be fine as well, unless proven otherwise.
 
I'd like to echo shnowshner 's concern about Iron Head the 30% flinch rate can be very problematic for slow fairies, especially if given para support, giving us a solid chance to beat one of our weaknesses. Imo Iron Tail also deserves to be blacklisted, especially due to our compound eyes ability as well as our ability to boost our Attack, making slower ice, rock and fairy pokemon, no longer able to check cap28.

I definitely agree with smart strike as our physical steel move, and i believe flash cannon should be fine as well, unless proven otherwise.
Tbh Iron Head is fine imo. Flinch chance doesn’t particularly matter: Usually CAP 28 will click it on switch and then switch out to escape the fairy so a little bit of extra power is all we’re getting. If you run paralysis support to help CAP beat its checks that’s fine, team members are meant to help get rid of checks. It won’t be overbearing with that because remember that CAP 28 is still pretty frail and not crazily fast as it is.
 
I can't see where it was mentioned earlier other than fairy coverage in general but thematically I'd like to bring up strange steam. 252 spatk timid life orb cap28 against a 0 HP kerfuffle deals 84-99% with it. Also kerfuffle is way faster so even if you get the prediction right, it loves and either threatens 28 out or destroys it. I feel like the flavor outweighs the blanket coverage to common answers
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
I can't see where it was mentioned earlier other than fairy coverage in general but thematically I'd like to bring up strange steam. 252 spatk timid life orb cap28 against a 0 HP kerfuffle deals 84-99% with it. Also kerfuffle is way faster so even if you get the prediction right, it loves and either threatens 28 out or destroys it. I feel like the flavor outweighs the blanket coverage to common answers
Friendly reminder: this is a competitive step. Flavor does not nor should it ever outweigh competitive decisions. I would encourage you to find a competitive reason for the community to seriously consider strange steam. Otherwise, fairy coverage should remain blacklisted. (I do wish the reasoning was a bit more elaborate than "unnecessary so banned.")
 
I know this a trivial objection to the proposed movepool regarding a pretty inconsequential flavor move, but I don't think Shadow Claw makes much sense. Shadow Claw is usually restricted to pokemon for whom the claws are a primary method of attack, most often for bipedal pokemon, and that does not appear to be the case for CAP28. There are tons of somewhat-shadowy pokemon with much more defined or accessible claws who do not receive Shadow Claw, such as Gallade, Hoopa-Unbound, Scyther, Armaldo, Crawdaunt, Kabutops, Honchkrow, and Lycanroc. Obviously I think that type-specific slashing moves like Dragon Claw and X-Scissor make total sense, but I think Shadow Claw's distribution is limited in a way that makes it hard to justify.
 
Friendly reminder: this is a competitive step. Flavor does not nor should it ever outweigh competitive decisions. I would encourage you to find a competitive reason for the community to seriously consider strange steam. Otherwise, fairy coverage should remain blacklisted. (I do wish the reasoning was a bit more elaborate than "unnecessary so banned.")
Ok so how about *clears throat* it should learn strange steam to catch tomohawk and voodoom on the switch in
 

spoo

is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
a couple opinions have changed slightly since last posting-
Bughouse sums up how I feel about Earth Power and Wild Charge very nicely. I had said in a previous post that Wild Charge was coverage for the sake of coverage but this was honestly poor wording & it's just not really true either since we already have powerful electric moves. WC simply allows for set diversity and a physical option for something we could already do. I think my stance on it has shifted from weakly supporting an approval/not really caring and now imo it's an easy and sensible decision to approve it. I still believe that Earth Power is an easy approval as well for the same reasons that Wild Charge is.
I had also said before that I was leaning towards an approval on flying moves but that ultimately I didn't care, and that's still mostly true but I think I'm starting to fall a little on the opposite side now. I feel like these coverage moves are honestly very insignificant, and now that we have steel coverage approved, flying is almost entirely redundant in terms of actual Pokemon it hits. Arguing on the grounds of flavor implications for something like Dual Wingbeat is sorta the best argument you can make for an approval because it's something that we will literally never need from a competitive standpoint. I don't really want to make that argument here though, so my official stance is still that I'm mostly indifferent. Put a gun to my head and I say blacklist but it's fine by me either way.
 

MrPanda

not a bear
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ok so how about *clears throat* it should learn strange steam to catch tomohawk and voodoom on the switch in
Voodoom isn't an so meaningful element in the current metagame so that it can impact on a competitive decision like that, but instead you can use Urshifu to make a more based argument.
 
Voodoom isn't an so meaningful element in the current metagame so that it can impact on a competitive decision like that, but instead you can use Urshifu to make a more based argument.
Fair. I was thinking strictly caps but yea, urshifu is way more relevant
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Alright everyone, thank you all for bearing with us and for all the great discussion this thread has created. Let's clear out any remaining moves.

Steel-type coverage (Iron Tail, Iron Head, Flash Cannon): These moves have remained solid in there support. There are few who object a bit and request weaker Steel-type coverage, but there is little evidence to indicate that these moves are too strong. These should be fine to approve at this point. Approved.

Steel Wing / Smart Strike:
We have stronger Steel-type coverage than these so they are fine, but we would like to keep these in the preliminary movepool for inclusivity. Approved for the preliminary movepool.

Acrobatics / Dual Wingbeat:
Flying-type coverage is fairly redundant here so very few issues about it competitively. Would like to keep it in the preliminary movepool for inclusivity, as it is meant to be as wide as possible. Approved for the preliminary movepool.

Stomping Tantrum / Aura Sphere:
Both of these moves are weaker and less usable than Earthquake and Focus Blast respectively. Kept for the preliminary movepool to keep it open as an option. Approved for the preliminary movepool.

Earth Power / Wild Charge:
People have requested these moves as a counterpart for Earthquake and Thunder respectively. Considering how highly requested they are and that nobody has given major objection, I have little reason to stop it. Approved.

Super Fang:
Nobody said anything bad about it so I assume its in the clear. Approved.

Haze / Poison Gas / Clear Smog:
These options are fairly weak and have gotten no objection. I am slightly worried about Poison Gas as it is a status but I think these are fine for the preliminary movepool. Approved for the preliminary movepool.

Pain Split:
This didn't get discussion when brought up here, but considering it is a very usable recovery option due to our low HP I am very skeptical of if this is a good thing. We already have Recover as an option for recovery that was very well supported, and the alternative Pain Split got far less discussion when it was brought up. It is important not to give CAP28 too many options, and Pain Split I feel falls into that area of indulgence. If it were to be seriously considered, then it should have gotten far more mention considering its usability. Blacklisted.

And with that, I think we have wrapped up here: Here are the Required Moves, Blacklisted Moves, and our Preliminary Movepool as determined by the discussion here!

Bug Buzz
Close Combat
Draco Meteor
Dragon Hammer
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Tail
Earth Power
Earthquake
Endure
Facade
First Impression
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast
Giga Impact
High Horsepower
Hyper Beam
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Leech Life
Leech Life
Megahorn
Nasty Plot
Outrage
Protect
Recover
Rest
Sleep Talk
Snore
Substitute
Super Fang
Sword Dance
Taunt
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Wild Charge
Sleep Powder, Hypnosis
Speed + Offense Boosting (Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, Shell Smash)
U-turn
Entry Hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web)
Strength Sap
Light Screen, Reflect
Pain Split
Pseudo-Trapping (Infestation, Sand Tomb, etc.)
Knock Off
Scale Shot
Fire-type coverage over 65 BP
Ice-type coverage over 65 BP
Psychic-type coverage over 65 BP
Rock-type coverage over 65 BP
Poison-type coverage over 65 BP
Water-type coverage over 65 BP
Fairy-type coverage over 65 BP
Bold = Required

TMs
Pin Missile
Hyper Beam
Giga Impact

Dig
Screech
Safeguard
Rest
Thief
Snore
Protect

Scary Face
Giga Drain
Steel Wing
Attract
Sandstorm
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Facade
Swift
Brick Break
Payback
Assurance
Shadow Claw
Thunder Fang
Ice Fang
Fire Fang
Venoshock
Round
Acrobatics
Retaliate
Bulldoze
Electroweb
False Swipe
Air Slash
Smart Strike
Brutal Swing
Stomping Tantrum
Breaking Swipe

TR:
Sword Dance
Body Slam
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Earthquake

Agility
Focus Energy
Leech Life
Substitute

Reversal
Outrage
Endure
Sleep Talk
Megahorn
Iron Tail

Crunch
Shadow Ball
Uproar
Taunt
Superpower
Hyper Voice
Iron Defense
Dragon Claw
Bulk Up
Calm Mind
Close Combat
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
X-Scissor
Bug Buzz
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast
Earth Power
Nasty Plot
Flash Cannon
Iron Head

Work Up
Wild Charge
Drill Run
High Horsepower
Throat Chop

Tutor:
Draco Meteor
Dual Wingbeat
Corrosive Gas
Skitter Smack

Other:
Dragon Hammer
Dragon Tail
Dragon Rush
First Impression

Dual Chop
Dragon Breath
Leech Life
Lunge
Fell Stinger
Bug Bite
Poison Fang
Bite
Super Fang
Recover

Clear Smog
Poison Gas
Haze


I pass it over to our TL Mx for the final check!
 
Alright, I really like how this looks like but I'm going to be using my -1 to remove Wild Charge. While that move is generally inferior to Thunder/Thunderbolt, is not necessary for anything we want to do and in my opinion might end up making special and mixed sets obsolete, as sets like Sword Dance and Choice Band have a much higher chance of eclipsing other options the more coverage moves they get.

Other than that, I think we're done here. This should have been the last competitive stage before we move into our 1.0 release, so look forward to that this weekend!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top