CAP 28 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

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Lesgoo, first moveset sub :D

Disruption Stallbreaker
Name: Roserade 2.0
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Hypnosis
Move 3: Thunder
Move 4: Megahorn/Close Combat
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 212 Atk/ 188 SpA/ 108 Spe
Nature: Mild

I remember discussing tspikes on discord, and thought "Hey, why not submit a moveset submission for it. Tried to give us the best 2 move coverage i could. Some general notes:

  • Toxic Spikes+Hypnosis is very similar to UU Roserade sets, and they seem to work quite well lol
  • The moves I gave it were meant to be the best way to hit the most popular hazard control mons rn (Mandi, Tomo, Skarm, Corv, maybe Colossoil).
  • Megahorn is a very powerful, spammable and reliable STAB move but Close Combat lets us hit the most popular rapidspinner in Equi while also letting us hit Ferro and Exca.
  • The attack EVs are just enough to 2HKO blissey with megahorn
  • Speed is to outspeed tomos outspeeding bisharp
  • Dumped everything else in SpA
 
Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Mixed Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder/Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat/Earthquake
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
  • This set aims at dismantling specific pivots that might otherwise be good into CAP28, namely :Tomohawk: and :Equilibra:.
  • Thunderbolt is a high chance 2HKO on Tomo with rocks ((42.5 - 50.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock or guaranteed with Life Orb (55.3 - 65.2%)), while CC (62.7 - 74%) and EQ (52.4 - 61.7%) provide the same for Libra (EQ has a 97.7% chance of a 2HKO but provides better overall coverage), making neither a "clean" switch-in. This provides the player with the ability to make reads to make the most of CAP28's stallbreaking potential utilizing its excellent mixed attacking stats.
  • Megahorn is in place for consistent damage, and for picking up OHKOs on :Slowking:, :Rillaboom:, and a 2HKO on Tangrowth
  • Taunt is useful in the :Blissey: and :Toxapex: matchup, though CAP28 needs to be wary of Seismic Toss chip and Scald Burn.
  • This set predictably struggles with fairy types, particularly :Kerfluffle:. Scarf :Togekiss: also forces it out, but can't come in on a predicted T-Bolt more than once. Additionally, bulky :Volcarona: has a very good matchup into this set. Finally, the Rotom forms do quite well into this set if it is running CC.
This looks like a solid set.
I second Revi in slashing Thunder with Tbolt.
While it is more unreliable, you don’t need to run it with life orb to guarantee a 2hko on Tomohawk and you get a good chance to 2hko Toxapex as well with some previous chip, while being able to Rocks and Life Orb recoil.

I will add thoughts on other stuff later.
 
Doing this on my phone on break so this won't be as in detailed as others but:

Compound eyes 252 ATK 156 SPDEF 104 SPD Adamant Choice Band
Dragon Rush
Megahorn
Earthquake/Psychic Fangs
Close Combat/Stone Edge

This speed creeps the utility set for tomohawk and takes 84.8-100.3 from hurricane. In return it always gets a 2hko
With dragon rush, psychic fangs, or stone edge. Close Combat will ohko equilibra, excadrill, defensive ferrothorn, or collosoil. Eq/fangs okhos/2hkos defensive toxapex. Megahorn ohkos slowbro and slowking.

Not so much a utility set, but the raw wall breaking power is there for sure
 
Disruption Stallbreaker
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
- Megahorn
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Earthquake
- Taunt/Substitute
Megahorn can 2HKO slowbro and always OHKOs slowking
Thunderbolt can 2HKO Tomo after Stealth Rock
Thunder can always 2HKO Tomo without rocks however the lower accuracy can be major hindrance
Earthquake will always to 2HKO Equilibra who would normally stop this set
Taunt is use to stop defensive Pokemon from healing and using status moves
Substitute can lessen the need for prediction but cut your own HP by 25%


Some Calcs
252+ Atk Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 534-630 (135.5 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Flygon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 176-208 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Equilibra: 256-302 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Special Wallbreaker
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
Item: Life Orb
- Megahorn
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
A Life Orb boosted Megahorn can 2HKO Blissey and OHKO Slowking who would otherwise stop this set
Draco Meteor can 2HKO physical walls like Toxapex and OHKO Tomo
Fire Blast is your best move vs Equilibra, Ferro and Amoonguss
Thunder is mainly used to hit Togekiss and threaten Kerfluffle with paralysis


More Calcs
4 Atk Life Orb Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 398-468 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Flygon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 525-619 (133.2 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 503-594 (121.4 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 380-447 (91.7 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 307-364 (100.9 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 231-273 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Equilibra: 273-322 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 338-400 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 556-655 (157.9 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 278-330 (74.3 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kerfluffle: 175-207 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Support

Name: Sticky Web Support
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder/Thunderbolt/Earthquake
Move 3: Hypnosis/Taunt
Move 4: Sticky Web
Ability: Compound Eyes/Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe or 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty or Jolly
  • This set is aimed at helping mitigate CAP28's middling speed while fulfilling a support role.
  • Megahorn is used for consistent STAB damage backed by CAP28's beefy attack. Thunder is used to cover for :Tomohawk:, while Thunderbolt is used for the same reason but for use with Neutralizing Gas. Earthquake can be used in conjunction with Compound Eyes if :Equilibra: is a more feared spinner for the team. Calcs have been made for these moves already, so I won't list them.
  • Hypnosis can be used as a punish for the switches a set like this will cause. :Ribombee: is proof that this can work. In the case of Neutralizing Gas being used, Taunt is a valid option for it's wide range of support effects, as well as blocking Defog from :Mandibuzz: and :Corviknight:.
  • Sticky Web is the basis of this set. It helps constrict the ability of common pivots that lack HDB like :Urshifu: and :Kerfluffle:. The question about this set is how it can compete with :Snaelstrom: and others as a Sticky Web setter. CAP28 possesses a far greater offensive presence than :Snaelstrom: and :Galvantula: and has better, more consistent coverage than :Ribombee:.
 
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Deck Knight

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Oh ok
Refresh will be removed
My recommendation is replace it with Aromatherapy. Same local effect, but more team support. It was nice Refresh had double the PP though.

Wanted to post more about moves now that we have a lot of submissions.

Status Moves:

I agree with the general argument on allowing Hypnosis but not Sleep Powder, since Sleep Powder is serviceable enough on NGas sets to remove CEyes niche.

I loathe Hazards. As much synergy as something like SR has with NGas removing Kril's Magic Guard, I really think we have enough hazard setters in CAP. Spikes would be the worst offender, but no one has promoted it yet. I feel like SR and even Toxic Spikes are pushing it. Hazards will turn CAP itself into a pivot for that utility against MGuard or Levitate, and that worries me.

On stat-ups, I think Quiver Dance might be a little overwhelming, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I see no problems with either Nasty Plot or Swords Dance.

Coverage:

Fire Blast does concern me a little more than Flamethrower or Heat Wave would, because Compound Eyes + tons of low acc-coverage can get out of hand. Fire Blast is perfectly usable outside Compound Eyes guaranteeing its hit. Focus Blast by contrast just isn't as powerful of a coverage option for either STAB, and people still gamble on that. Thunder by contrast has common immunities, including ability immunities, and 70 Acc vs 97 Acc is a huge gulf. 85 vs 100? Not so much.

Stone Edge worries me because it isn't relevant to much outside Rotom-Heat and Volcarona on a CEyes sets. On a Pokemon with 135 Attack, I really don't want extra powerful coverage for its own sake. It performs poorly against most of our Pressure List as well, making it a liability on a set. Crushing Volcarona might be worth it, though. Volcarona isn't a pivot though, it's a mid-end game sweeper.

Psychic Fangs feels similar on paper. I like that it condenses a physical option against Toxapex and Tomohawk, but it also nails Kerfluffle, so it removes considerably more counters than other options. Otherwise it's a mixed bag that fails against Hydreigon, Colossoil, and Weavile, provides a second good hit on Kommo-o, and otherwise only hits Amoonguss on the Pressure list.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Alright starting with the one pretty much completely locked in, approving Draco Meteor for obvious reasons. The only scenario that it would be blacklisted would be if it was broken by itself, but CAP28 has been built with Draco Meteor usage in mind and I highly doubt that it is broken. Otherwise every Pokemon that is naturally Dragon-type gets this move; I see no reason to exclude it.

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Mixed Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat/Earthquake
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Sleepy Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder
Move 3: Earthquake / Close Combat
Move 4: Hypnosis
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Expert Belt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Lonely
I think these two sets together give a fantastic foundation for the Disruption Stallbreaker archetype, as they fulfill the base needs exceedingly well for CAP28's concept. I do agree with those that had made the point that Thunder should be put on the set, since it means CAP28 does not need to to run Life Orb for Tomohawk, and can instead afford the much more beneficial Heavy-Duty Boots. Overall the moves present here, aside from Thunderbolt, all are seen on a large amount of the other sets submitted so far, and these two sets are rock solid so far. With that in mind, I am approving Megahorn, Close Combat, Earthquake, Thunder, Thunderbolt, and Taunt using these sets as a base. Thunderbolt as a move is mostly inferior for the purposes of CAP28, but still is meaningful enough as an option for consistency on Neutralizing Gas sets. Hypnosis as a move is very fitting for this archetype specifically and gives Compound Eyes purpose, but I am not quite allowing it at the moment because I am unsure of its effects on other archtypes, which I will elaborate farther below.

Speaking of sleep, I have decided to disallow Sleep Powder. Many people have stated their concern over the possible inclusion of the move in regards to its 75% accuracy, which critics claim would be completely usable and unhealthy on Neutralizing Gas sets for CAP28. Considering that the thread has shifted its main sleep move to Hypnosis, a similar option with a lower accuracy not usable with Neutralizing Gas, I take this as a sign that the consensus agrees with this sentiment and Sleep Powder should not be an option on CAP28.

Special Setup
Name: Nasty Plot
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Thunder
Move 3: Close Combat/Focus Blast
Move 4: Nasty Plot
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/52 Spe
Nature: Naive/Timid
This is also a very solid set and fulfills the most likely course people see for special wallbreaking. I think the weirdest thing on this set is probably Focus Blast and the choice of Compound Eyes when Thunder is still totally servicable on Neutralizing Gas, but otherwise this is what would be expected for the Setup portion of Special Wallbreaker. While I can be proven wrong by Nasty Plot (in which case tell me I am), I feel comfortable enough right now to go ahead and approve Nasty Plot using this set as a base.

Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 2: Megahorn
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake / High Horsepower
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
This Choice Band set is good and fits Physical Wallbreaker well. I'd like to approve it but I think one aspect of it needs to be decided: Dragon Hammer. Optically (unless mods come in to tell me this is the incorrect decision) Dragon Hammer is absolutely fair game. While it is exclusive to Alolan Exeggutor in SwSh, it was given to Tropius in USUM, meaning it was never the intention to be kept completely on Eggy-A. I see no problem allowing such a move.

With that in mind, please discuss whether or not we would like to include this for CAP28. Sets at the moment have slashed it with Dragon Claw at the moment, implying that it is currently an undecided distinction. Please discuss if it in realms of the power levels we desire for CAP28 so we can make a decision on it. Pretty much the rest of the set is good, so approving Dragon Claw(if Dragon Hammer is approved it will replace it since it's a flat upgrade) and High Horsepower using the set as a base.

Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Coil / Bulk Up
Move 1: Coil / Bulk Up
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake / High Horsepower
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Swords Dance Breaker
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
I bring these two up for discussion. I do not feel ready to use any of these sets as a baseline for a Physical Setup in the Physical Wallbreaker archetype, and that is mostly because our physical setup is still in contention. Swords Dance is the largest question here: some claim factoring Neutralizing Gas into the equation that SD+3 Attacks could be a bit too scary, while others say that it is not an issue. This is a question I would like answered by thread, so please discuss this point before I make a decision.

Special (Setup) Wallbreaker
Name: Sleepy Setup
Move 1: Quiver Dance / Nasty Plot
Move 2: Sleep Powder Hypnosis
Move 3: Bug Buzz
Move 4: Blizzard
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
I think this set brings up a couple things I would like to discuss.

Firstly, I don't understand the appeal of Blizzard here, specifically in regards of adding another coverage type, because I feel it is redundant with the much more popular Thunder in some ways as well as our Bug-type STAB. Thunder is already a move that already targets major Flying-types like Tomohawk and Mandibuzz sufficiently enough, so I think it is completely redundant in that regard. More importantly is the hitting of Grass-types strongly, most particularly Jumbao and Amoonguss as noted by the description. I do not think it is particularly neccesary since the set implies a boosted Bug Buzz, which neither want to stay in on.

+2 252 SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 291-343 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Jumbao: 208-246 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I simply find it currently uneccessary considering the popular tools so far, so approving it would require an argument as to why it is worth the approval. Similar case with Fire Blast: when we already have Close Combat for Steel-types and Bug-STAB for Grass-types, why should we approve it?

Second note is Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance is a speed booster, and speed boosting is dangerous stuff for CAP28. Quiver Dance in general is a supremely strong move that is not to be taken lightly, so I would need arguments as to why it's not going to break our mon. Until those are given, I am leaning on blacklisting it.

Finally, I do have some mild concerns about Sleep and Setup together, and this is currently the reason I am not quite approving Hypnosis yet for the Disruption Stallbreaker set. Sleep is absolutely nothing to scoff at in terms of shutting down a mon for a couple of turns, turns CAP28 could absolutely use to boost further. There is the significant weakness of only two attacks being viable, but how much does Sleep compensate in its shutting down the mon. I am somewhat sure its not going to be broken, but I would just like more confirmation that its not from everyone.

Also Bug Buzz is approved. It by itself is not at all problematic and pretty expected specially.

Those are the big sets I thought I absolutely needed to address first. I have not forgotten the other sets, and will get to them soon. Keep up the great work guys!
 
I do not believe we need any coverage whatsoever beyond Electric, Ground, and Fighting. Namely, Rock, Fire, and Psychic coverage all feel unneeded.


Rock does not to my knowledge but anything Electric or Ground cannot. Electric hits Flying types harder, including Tomohawk which is neutral to Rock-type coverage. Ground hits Fire-type Pokémon harder, most notably Rotom-Heat on Neutralizing Gas sets, which I feel is what we should assume for our ability 90% of the time.

Fire, much like Rock, has very little it hits strongly over the likes of Electric, Ground, or Fighting. Fire seems to be for hitting Steels and Grasses neutral to Bug, but in terms of Steel-type Pokemon they’re all hit with either Earthquake or Thunder when NGas is taken into account. I realize Fire coverage stemmed from a Compound Eyes set, but I don’t think we should be giving new coverage types specifically for Compound Eyes, at the very least it shouldn’t be required.

Psychic is perhaps the oddest one of all, because it is strictly inferior in what it sets out to target in Tomohawk and Toxapex in one slot. While that sounds good on paper, you have to realize Psychic coverage in terms of raw base power is always going to be weaker than Electric, with the only exception being Psychic Fangs vs Zing Zap, but Wild Charge is still a move that exists anyway, and Psychic Fangs still has to put up with Rocky Helmet and while almost a 50/50 has slightly worse odds against it 2HKOing.

252 Atk Flygon Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 190-224 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO

If you want a reliable way to physically 2HKO Tomohawk, Wild Charge seems like it could easily replace Thunder(bolt) on the approved Disruption Stallbreaker set as a more consistent 2HKO that is a happy medium between Thunderbolt requiring Life Orb and Thunder being able to miss, but 2 Rocky Helmet activations alone does 12% more than 2 Life Orb activations, so there really is no reason to even consider Wild Charge, let alone Psychic Fangs.

P.S: Focus Blast has no reason to be required because the only point of CC is to have special sets hit Blissey and is thus entirely redundant to require with Close Combat already required.
 
From a completely concept-oriented point of view, I do not believe Dragon Hammer should be on this set. Instead, Dragon Claw. The initial reason I said this is due to this calc in particular:
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-226 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
Although not a direct 2HKO, Mandibuzz :Mandibuzz: is forced to be kept healthy the entire game, forcing a directly more passive playstyle and therefore slowing the metagame down by a lot. Whilst subjective, this does contribute to my overall point, and is also why I feel that Stone Edge would be a bad choice for CAP28.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (ROCKY HELMET) Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

The other contestant to Tomohawk: :Toxapex: Toxapex also fails to stand up to a dragon hammer without running Heavy Duty boots and looking at the impact this Pokemon could have on the metagame, it would put Urshifu to shame for reasons such as this. Especially as regenerator would not take on the switch-out if Neutralising Gas is used.
Being able to take on the biggest physical wall in the game thanks to the choice band set is worrying. Although it might be assumed that this is just a byproduct of the mon, the main concept should be the most appealing side of the Pokemon. It is not simply enough to "achieve" the concept on a base level, the goal must be the most apparent and necessary route of action upon using this pokemon. It has room for more flexibility, but the concept must be its "strongest" and most easily applicable set. If we use this choice band set which makes even the strongest physical wall in the meta a 2HKO, which will end up being so much more appealing instead of doing its main concept: Disrupting pivots. Furthermore, we could say that a choiced set, by nature, disrupts the concept, as we no longer are able to slow down pivots or their moves when we are locked into one move which they might resist, making this also anti-concept! As an example, Kerfluffle :kerfluffle: which is on the checks and counters can switch in on this banded set after the first scouting switch is made by Tomohawk, pressure it out, turning a pokemon which CAP28 should check into a check for CAP28. Part of CAP28's concept in movesets which should be considered is synergy with possibly anti-concept items, one of which I believe to be a choice item.
However, I am not as naive as to believe there is a way to just NOT slap a choice band on CAP28, and as a result, I feel like the best compromise is to slightly down-power what would be the reliable STAB of CAP28, Dragon Claw. Dragon Claw solves this issue. A -10 in offence power means that it is no longer a threat to the best physical wall in the metagame, as well as runners-up:

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 171-202 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 166-196 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, all of these calcs show the damage that CAP28 can bring, and the ability to severely dent walls at full HP, and in the midgame, even break them entirely, shows that this archetype can still be useful, but it is not as all-encompassing and possibly meta-breaking as Dragon Hammer would be.
The argument that as long as it fulfills its concept, then any move necessary must be given is an interesting one but ultimately is a false one. Does Dragon Hammer make it an even better stop to pivots than Dragon Claw? Yes. However, with the items, stats, type and ability, is it necessary for CAP28 to have it to make it a good roadblock? No. Giving it unesseary wallbreaking prowess will simply detract away from its main goal.
If we give moves to CAP28 which will encourage a set which will not punish pivots, we will not achieve the concept. Specifically if that set involves a choice item, as the most common way to deal with a choice item is to scout the move and then switch into the appropriate pivot to beat it, the concept cannot be achieved if this is the case.
 

Rabia

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Name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Close Combat
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

  • While many people have been using Megahorn in their sets, I think Leech Life deserves consideration, particularly on Substitute sets. Heavy-Duty Boots is a godsend for longevity, but I still feel repeated uses of Substitute could make things dicey. Additionally, Leech Life opens up a bit more variety with item choice, letting Life Orb be a bit less punishing. Lastly, I feel Leech Life makes the choice between Neutralizing Gas and Compound Eyes more linear compared to Megahorn.
  • Dragon Claw was opted for over something stronger like Dragon Hammer or Outrage to preserve Tomohawk as a consistent answer.
  • Close Combat I feel is necessary on this set, especially with the weaker STAB move options. Without it, Blissey is never at risk of being 2HKOed if a non-boosted item is chosen. Additionally, it becomes less annoying to pressure Equilibra.
    • 252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 244-288 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 252 Atk Flygon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 488-576 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
      • With Life Orb, however, Dragon Claw/Leech Life can 2HKO Blissey if high damage rolls are obtained, and Close Combat has a shot to OHKO.
 
From a completely concept-oriented point of view, I do not believe Dragon Hammer should be on this set. Instead, Dragon Claw. The initial reason I said this is due to this calc in particular:
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-226 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
Although not a direct 2HKO, Mandibuzz :Mandibuzz: is forced to be kept healthy the entire game, forcing a directly more passive playstyle and therefore slowing the metagame down by a lot. Whilst subjective, this does contribute to my overall point, and is also why I feel that Stone Edge would be a bad choice for CAP28.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (ROCKY HELMET) Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

The other contestant to Tomohawk: :Toxapex: Toxapex also fails to stand up to a dragon hammer without running Heavy Duty boots and looking at the impact this Pokemon could have on the metagame, it would put Urshifu to shame for reasons such as this. Especially as regenerator would not take on the switch-out if Neutralising Gas is used.
Being able to take on the biggest physical wall in the game thanks to the choice band set is worrying. Although it might be assumed that this is just a byproduct of the mon, the main concept should be the most appealing side of the Pokemon. It is not simply enough to "achieve" the concept on a base level, the goal must be the most apparent and necessary route of action upon using this pokemon. It has room for more flexibility, but the concept must be its "strongest" and most easily applicable set. If we use this choice band set which makes even the strongest physical wall in the meta a 2HKO, which will end up being so much more appealing instead of doing its main concept: Disrupting pivots. Furthermore, we could say that a choiced set, by nature, disrupts the concept, as we no longer are able to slow down pivots or their moves when we are locked into one move which they might resist, making this also anti-concept! As an example, Kerfluffle :kerfluffle: which is on the checks and counters can switch in on this banded set after the first scouting switch is made by Tomohawk, pressure it out, turning a pokemon which CAP28 should check into a check for CAP28. Part of CAP28's concept in movesets which should be considered is synergy with possibly anti-concept items, one of which I believe to be a choice item.
However, I am not as naive as to believe there is a way to just NOT slap a choice band on CAP28, and as a result, I feel like the best compromise is to slightly down-power what would be the reliable STAB of CAP28, Dragon Claw. Dragon Claw solves this issue. A -10 in offence power means that it is no longer a threat to the best physical wall in the metagame, as well as runners-up:

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 171-202 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 166-196 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, all of these calcs show the damage that CAP28 can bring, and the ability to severely dent walls at full HP, and in the midgame, even break them entirely, shows that this archetype can still be useful, but it is not as all-encompassing and possibly meta-breaking as Dragon Hammer would be.
The argument that as long as it fulfills its concept, then any move necessary must be given is an interesting one but ultimately is a false one. Does Dragon Hammer make it an even better stop to pivots than Dragon Claw? Yes. However, with the items, stats, type and ability, is it necessary for CAP28 to have it to make it a good roadblock? No. Giving it unesseary wallbreaking prowess will simply detract away from its main goal.
If we give moves to CAP28 which will encourage a set which will not punish pivots, we will not achieve the concept. Specifically if that set involves a choice item, as the most common way to deal with a choice item is to scout the move and then switch into the appropriate pivot to beat it, the concept cannot be achieved if this is the case.
A few things on this:

First of all, as far as I'm aware, most of the time Tomo doesn't run max Defense; I believe the more common spread is Timid with 252 HP/120 Def/136 Spe, or Timid with 252 HP/92 Def/28 SpA/136 Spe. Given this, we see that:

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 219-258 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Second, I don't see why we should discourage the use of Choice Band or why it's anti-concept. During Concept Assessment we agreed that strong offensive pressure is a good way to fulfill the concept, and here during the Movepool Stage we decided that a Physical Wallbreaker is a role that we want CAP28 to fulfill. I also don't see how being choice-locked is inherently anti-concept. There are so many mons that can be considered pivots, and we agreed that we don't need to hit every one, just our targets. Despite the downside of being choice-locked, the banded set is still pro-concept as it prevents pivots from switching in without bearing considerable risk.

Given CAP28's 135/115 offenses, it does lean heavily into wallbreaking, and I don't see why we should prevent CAP28 from breaking down some of the most common walls in the metagame. Nor do I believe that the ability to break down all of these walls is too concerning from a balance perspective, as being banded forces us to take 25% from rocks, our low defenses prevent us from switching in reliably, and our somewhat low speed makes us easy to revenge kill. That being said, I do think that Dragon Hammer is a great option for a reliable physical Dragon STAB. Wallbreaking prowess does not distract from the main goal, in many ways, it is one of our main goals.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-226 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I strongly support dragon hammer specifically because of this calc. How can we really punish pivots if even with a choice band and perfect prediction we can’t threaten the most ubiquitous pivots in the metagame? Fairy types are already very beneficial with all of the dragons in the meta and so teams should have something to dissuade cap 28 from clicking dragon hammer. I think a choice band set with the potential to 2hko most defensive pokemon with the right move is pro concept, as once they scout the choice lock it is easy to switch into. However, a free opportunity for 28 lets it draw in common bulky pivots and force them to lose a significant amount of their health. Cap 28 has a lot of flaws especially when it’s running a choice band, such as lack of speed, bulk and vulnerability to hazards. Dragon hammer 2hkoing these bulky pokemon is essential to actually being able to make progress as otherwise cap28 just gets forced out by the same mons every time.

Also, I would like to note that CB dragapult has better bulk, speed and typing than cap28, bypasses intimidate and actually has a stronger dragon stab.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- approx. 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

While this set is strong, it is by no means broken and it’s hard to see why a cap 28 set that achieves similar benchmarks would be overpowered. Cap 28 trades speed and better coverage against fairies for a better way to punish toxapex for scouting it and I think the addition of dragon hammer enables this solid interpretation of the concept.
 

jas61292

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I'd like to post here against us having Dragon Hammer. I think it is a very unnecessary boost that gives us added power for no good reason. I think, as has been talked about many times throughout this project, one of the main reasons we chose this typing was for the bug type STAB. At the same time, we have also noted many times throughout the project that Bug/Dragon is not an amazing STAB combo, and we may very well not be encouraged to use both on one set. Already, we have seen a few submitted sets that are choosing to forgo bug moves in favor of dragon, and I think that is something we want to absolutely avoid as much as possible.

This links back to Dragon Hammer because it is a straight up upgrade over the pretty much mandatory Dragon Claw. The key for allowing it should be showing that it is a needed upgrade over Dragon Claw. Unnecessary upgrades to our Dragon STAB will just discourage use of Bug STAB on some sets. Furthermore, if we are, for whatever reason, having an issue with power (which I would highly that we are) Outrage exists as a universal move for Dragon types that we can use. For us to allow Dragon Hammer, we should also need to show that the downsides of Outrage are overly detrimental to our goals.

I find both of these things hard to believe. We already do way more than enough with Dragon Claw, and Outrage is a perfectly acceptable move. I think you need to simply look at other strong dragons, like Pajantom to see this. It is perfectly fine running either Dragon Claw or Outrage, and it has less power than we do. I think this lack of need is especially true when you look at the actual sets on which Dragon Hammer has been submitted. To this point, the sets that have been submitted with the move are an SD set, a Coil set and a CB set.

With regard to the SD set, I would be hard pressed to believe that the power is actually necessary. Tomohawk has been brought up consistently in the Dragon Hammer discussion, and at +2, you are not getting the OHKO on Tomo without Outrage. A full defensive Tomo is being 2HKOed regardless of which move Dragon move we are packing. While I would honestly question whether we should have access to SD at all, if we do, at +2 Atk, the 10 power increase is rarely going to make a difference.

As far as a Coil Set, again, I don't think the power is needed, but even if we say it is, the question then becomes, why not Dragon Rush? Why should we give out an exclusive move, instead of giving a far more common alternative that not only synergizes better with the set, but also synergizes with our secondary ability.

Finally, with regard to CB, if we are running that item, then clearly what we are looking for is power above all else. Outrage is the go to move there. While locking yourself into Outrage is never fun, its not like it is some crippling thing that we must avoid. Almost every dragon that runs a CB set packs Outrage because that power is so important. I think we would be very much the same, and I would not be surprised if, even if we did have Dragon Hammer, Outrage still got used on such sets. Personally, I just can't see why, if Outrage is fine for Pajantom and has historically been fine for almost every strong Dragon, why we would be worried about providing our mon with a special alternative that most dragons don't have access to.

Ultimately though, I just think that none of the arguments in favor of Dragon Hammer have been convincing. As a more powerful but exclusive alternative to a near universal move, the onus should be on proving why we need it, not why we don't. Snake's original post on it straight up admitted that it has "troubling calcs." G-Luke's original submission of the SD set didn't even give any justification for why it should have the move specifically as its Dragon option. Darek851's post does talk in favor of the move, but its mostly just saying why its not overpowered, not why is is actually a needed upgraded, and does not at all address Outrage as another alternative. Finally, Yay61 does indeed provide a specific argument as to why Dragon Hammer is specifically more useful than Dragon Claw, I would strongly disagree with the reasoning that a CB set 2HKOing max bulk Tomohawk is a good thing, at least without resorting to Outrage. And again, the post does not even address Outrage as an alternative. I'm just unconvinced that, when Outrage and Dragon Claw exist as options, that any of the reasoning in favor of Dragon Hammer can really hold water.
 
Im going to give my two cents in some moves that generate discussion

Quiver dance and Dragon dance: These are very unappealing for me. While altering our speed and offensive seems nice, the speed alteration can get out of hand pretty quickly. It doesn’t help that most forms of priority get crippled by Ngas and our offensive typing (see Azu‘a aqua jet and rillaboom‘s grassy glide). I’m in favor of blacklisting these moves.
Hypnosis:
Unlike sleep powder, hypnosis low accuracy makes it only usable in compound eyes sets, which prevents 28 from abusing sleep and Ngas at the same time. Hypnosis is very interesting move and I believe it will greatly improve set up sets. I’m in favor of approving Hypnosis as a move.
Dragon claw vs Dragon hammer:
I like that dragon hammer can be very beneficial for this mon and band 2hkoing tomo isn’t that bad of a deal if the main intention was to deal with this mon. That being said, we chose to have this mon be mixed for a reason, and that is to use thunder and other special moves. If we give too much power on the physical side then the special side might be used very often. Seeing as this is a very debated move, I’m in favor of creating a dragon hammer poll ala Astrolotl with fire lash.

Also, I would like for more people to explore the options of First impression, Aromatherapy and Substitute, especially the former 2
 
Second note is Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance is a speed booster, and speed boosting is dangerous stuff for CAP28. Quiver Dance in general is a supremely strong move that is not to be taken lightly, so I would need arguments as to why it's not going to break our mon. Until those are given, I am leaning on blacklisting it.
Want to use this post to defend Quiver Dance.

Volcarona has a better SpA, a better speed tier, great coverage, and an arguably better offensive typing, yet i wouldn't say it's anywhere near broken. The idea of "gimme a chance and i'll kill something" that QDance offers us is something that I very pro concept. +1 SpA from 115 isn't going to OHKO anything big.

My main problem with sets that use SD or NP is that they aren't very... threatening, atleast to faster mons that can do big damage. QDance is something that bypasses this and is able to kill fast mons. To me, the fact that it can be revenge killed very easily afterwards, or the fact that QDance sets can be scouted by Blissey, really makes up for it's strength in my opinion.

I honestly also think that QDance is borderline necessary to make us a viable wallbreaker mon. At the moment, our meta is extremely saturated by dragon mons. We've got astro, dragapult, hydrei, haxorus, cyclohm, paj, and even kyurem is rising in usage. To seperate ourselves from these mons, I think speed-boosting special setup (something that none of these mons get) would be great. An option to boost our speed would help cement ourselves as a scary breaker, but i feel like the fact that pokes like Kerf, Bao, Cawm and Scarf Terrak can revenge kill us makes the move fairly.

However, I do realize that QDance will take up a good chunk of our power budget, and I think restricting our special coverage (ergo, making Tbolt our only special coverage) is a pretty good solution to this.

EDIT: After a few tests I've come to the realization that QDance isn't as good as it seems on paper, and kinda deviates from the concept. I do still think it's a useful tool that won't really end up broken, but i don't think it's necessary any more, and do understand the arguments against it :)
 
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Im going to give my two cents in some moves that generate discussion

Quiver dance and Dragon dance: These are very unappealing for me. While altering our speed and offensive seems nice, the speed alteration can get out of hand pretty quickly. It doesn’t help that most forms of priority get crippled by Ngas and our offensive typing (see Azu‘a aqua jet and rillaboom‘s grassy glide). I’m in favor of blacklisting these moves.
Hypnosis:
Unlike sleep powder, hypnosis low accuracy makes it only usable in compound eyes sets, which prevents 28 from abusing sleep and Ngas at the same time. Hypnosis is very interesting move and I believe it will greatly improve set up sets. I’m in favor of approving Hypnosis as a move.
Dragon claw vs Dragon hammer:
I like that dragon hammer can be very beneficial for this mon and band 2hkoing tomo isn’t that bad of a deal if the main intention was to deal with this mon. That being said, we chose to have this mon be mixed for a reason, and that is to use thunder and other special moves. If we give too much power on the physical side then the special side might be used very often. Seeing as this is a very debated move, I’m in favor of creating a dragon hammer poll ala Astrolotl with fire lash.

Also, I would like for more people to explore the options of First impression, Aromatherapy and Substitute, especially the former 2
I want to second Gekos post here.
I think everything they brought up is valid.
This means I’m in favor of blacklisting Boosting moves, that boost speed as well as attack at the same time, not only because they can be volatile, but also because finding the opportunities to actually set up, kind of distracts from the actual purpose of pivot disruption.
At the same time I’m in favor of allowing Hypnosis, if not proven broken by replays, as right now it will only be viable on Compoundeye sets and I believe, that sleep plus boosting restricts our coverage to the point where it won’t be more viable than other sets.
I haven’t seen any replays that showed otherwise although I haven’t seen many replays for sleep at all, so I guess we should get more information on that.
I‘m not set on Dragon Hammer vs. Claw, but I think there have been some recent posts, that argue well against dragon hammer.

With regards to First Impression I have seen replays that show the utility of such a move on a Pokémon with our power. Revenging sweepers and pressuring faster pivots is a great tool, that is at the same time controlled by its limited availability.

Again I think we need some more replays, but from what I have seen first impression looks to be one of our best tools to really exert pressure on our opponents.

Edit:
In addition to First impression I tested Sucker Punch for a double priority set.
I think having both moves could potentially be interesting and I’d like to see what others think of Sucker Punch or other weaker priority.
Here’s a replay with it:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-19
 
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quziel

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Minor post, but gonna advocate for "Mixed Wallbreaker" being added as an archetype here. We already have Physical Wallbreaker, Special Wallbreaker, and Stallbreaker, all of which could cover options that a Mixed Wallbreaker would, so I see little harm, and there are options that are very relevant to it that aren't relevant elsewhere.
 
Before I submit my set, I just wanna say Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, and Shell Smash should be blacklisted. We do not need a move that can increase our speed and power at the same time. Setup to me is an alternative method of dealing with bulky pivots by making yourself such a threat that you need to be taken out. However, these moves make it so that not only can you take the bulky pivots out, but you can nuke the faster pivots too without much to worry about. This turns us into an all-out sweeper once we get set up. While we do not have fantastic bulk to where it'd be super easy to set up, we only need a single speed boost to outpace the entire unboosted metagame, which combined with the offensive boost means that little can actually handle us, especially with regards to physical boosting. That is not to say Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and/or Agility should be blacklisted too, as our STAB combo makes a double dance set very inefficient in that something will always wall us. But having compression of speed and power boosting in one slot is just too much. Hypnosis is a move that I think should be fine to give considering it is extremely unreliable without Compound Eyes, and similar to a double dance set running setup + Hypnosis is rather difficult to do even using Compound Eyes. I could live without it being given, but I think giving Compound Eyes a move to give it at least a bit of a niche outside of hating missing Megahorn/Thunder isn't a bad idea.

With all of that said, here's a set utilizing a move discussed for a little while now, but without an actual set for it. I am going to be using Physical Wallbreaker for now, but I would like to throw my support behind adding Mixed Wallbreaker as an archetype, and if ever approved, this set would fall under that instead.

Physical Wallbreaker

Name: First Impression
Move 1: First Impression
Move 2: Earthquake / [Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw]
Move 3: Megahorn / Close Combat
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Lonely (+Atk, -Def)
  • First Impression is the star of the set, which while only working when we come in, puts immense pressure on the opponent's faster pivots and breakers, most notably Zeraora. It also can deal about half to an Urshifu, although trying to use it if Urshifu is already in is not recommended.
  • Earthquake is the primary coverage move, as it hits the likes of Astrolotl, Equilibra, and Rotom-Heat. Dragon STAB is meant specifically for the likes of bulky Astrolotl and other dragons. Dragon Hammer will always OHKO 72 HP / 0 Defense Astrolotl, while Dragon Claw has a 50% chance to do so. However, Earthquake is preferred due to the better type coverage overall. If you ask me, Dragon Hammer is not needed, but I placed it here in case it is approved. Whichever Dragon move is approved will be the one that takes the slot in the brackets, so if Dragon Hammer is approved, simply remove the brackets and Dragon Claw. If it's not approved, do the opposite.
  • Megahorn is to use the Bug STAB to blow away Slowking and 2HKO Blissey. Close Combat could be used if you are not running Earthquake to deal with Equilibra, but doing so is rather suboptimal considering this leaves you unable to meaningfully damage Slowking.
  • Thunder is pretty straightforward for tagging Flying-type Pokemon such as Tomohawk and Mandibuzz.
  • The rest of the moveset is pretty standard for this CAP, although I do want to simply highlight Lonely as a nature as being +Atk and -Def, though I don't exactly lack a specific calculation as to what the boost does for us at the moment. I'm tired and have other things to be doing lol.

This set is able to put pressure on bulkier pivots, albeit less so than Taunt sets, with the upside being the ability to tag faster Pokemon with a STAB First Impression and get some meaningful damage off, which if nothing else sets the team up for success against the Pokemon. I personally do not have any replays for this set, but I believe other people have replays using a set at least mostly similar to this. May add replays of my own here later.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Alright sorry for going dark for a couple days, lets do some catching up.
Disruption Stallbreaker
Name: Taunt Tail
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Dragon Tail
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Nature: Adamant
Dragon Tail is a very interesting option that neither me nor thread seem to have any distinct thoughts about aside from this particular mention. I'm not exactly inclined to approve it unless we get more discussion, but I see no reason to blacklist it either.

Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: "Double Status" Disruption Stallbreaker
Move 1: Hypnosis
Move 2: Encore / Taunt
Move 3: Dragon Rush
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
Feel pretty similarly to Taunt Tail set. Encore is a very interesting option, especially in regards to delayed move and utility disruption, but I remain unconvinced of its need. I'd like a bit more discussion on this please. Hypnosis I'll get to in a second.

Special Wallbreaker (Maybe Support)
Name: Technically Mixed FI
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Thunder / Thunderbolt
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: First Impression
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Mild
Physical Wallbreaker

Name: First Impression
Move 1: First Impression
Move 2: Earthquake / [Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw]
Move 3: Megahorn / Close Combat
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Lonely (+Atk, -Def)
Bringing these two sets up together since they are most likely to fit within the proposed Mixed Wallbreaker archetype. These sets by themselves are totally good and First Impression has emerged as a super really cool option for CAP28 considering all its aspects, including the priority for picking off Zeraora and Urshifu and its first-turn-only effect both deny setup with it and force players to consider their switch ins very careful for optimal usage. Its shown to be a solidly popular option, and if people were worried about it being unhealthy then I have yet to hear such concerns. I'll be keeping an eye on it, but approving First Impression using the two sets seperately as a basis for their archetypes. First Impression is an option that causes play solidly different from other sets so this distinction will be important.

With regards to the mixed wallbreaker archetype, my largest qualm with the proposition is exactly what quziel said himself: "We already have Physical Wallbreaker, Special Wallbreaker, and Stallbreaker, all of which could cover options that a Mixed Wallbreaker would." Its argument is that there are moves that are only relevant to Mixed Wallbreaker, but the only one clear at the moment is First Impression. I would like to hear more of those moves, as I am not particularly inclined towards adding a completely new archetype just for one specific move.
Support
Name: Stealth Rock
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: First Impression
Move 4: Thunder
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Lonely
Disruption Stallbreaker
Name: Roserade 2.0
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Hypnosis
Move 3: Thunder
Move 4: Megahorn/Close Combat
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 212 Atk/ 188 SpA/ 108 Spe
Nature: Mild
Support
Name: Sticky Web Support
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder/Thunderbolt/Earthquake
Move 3: Hypnosis/Taunt
Move 4: Sticky Web
Ability: Compound Eyes/Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe or 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Nature: Hasty or Jolly
Hazards in general has been brought up in thread a few times, both with solid support and opposition. I think my thoughts are pretty neutral on stuff like Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, while I am far more against Sticky Web. I think Entry Hazards just needs a bit more discussion in general, both to determine if we want them and which ones to add.
Disruption Stallbreaker

Name: Sleepy Stallbreaker
Move 1: Megahorn
Move 2: Thunder
Move 3: Earthquake / Close Combat
Move 4: Hypnosis
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Expert Belt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Lonely
I think discussion in thread and the overall consensus has led me to be far less worried about Hypnosis. Obviously keeping an eye on it because it is still sleep and that can break easily, but approving Hypnosis. I'll be adding it as a slash on the 4th move of the Mixed Stallbreaker set.
Physical Wallbreaker
Name: Swords Dance Breaker
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw
Move 3: Close Combat
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Two Things:
- Dragon Hammer vs Dragon Claw has progressed as an argument and it is split. I do not currently see the need for a concurrent move poll since its not as fundamental as Fire Lash was for Astrolotl, but if we don't hit a consensus by thread end I will poll it. Right now I am quite neutral on it, but I think it is important to ask one question: How much do we actually need it for CAP28? Can CAP function without only Dragon Claw or is there important enough uses to warrant its spot? I'd like just a bit more discussion on it to see if we really need the move.
- I think Swords Dance is fine and there haven't really been any further objections to it. Keeping an eye on it, but approving Swords Dance using this set as a base.

While on the topic of boosters, I think thread has shown its relative distaste for Quiver Dance and other speedboosting moves, as there is a very significant fear of snowballing into a monster. I think this is valid considering the tools we have, so I am blacklisting Offense + Speed Boosting Setup (Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, Shell Smash).

Name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Close Combat
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Subsitute is a move pretty much required, but I am not convinced that any Subsititute set would be viable, considering how strapped we are for slots and how necessary Heavy-Duty Boots is, meaning it can't run leftovers. While I am mostly indifferent to Leech Life and would have no problems with it on a movepool, I don't see the necessity of its requirement until Sub 3 Attacks is shown to be solidly usable.

Covering various options that don't have mention on a set:

Stone Edge: Reviloja and Deck Knight summarized the argument pretty well. Our allowed coverage hits what it would pretty well already, and the only exceptions are exactly Rotom-Heat and Volcarona on Compound Eyes, which is already strapped for moveslots. Volcarona could be a nice option I guess if we really wanted, but I am not keen on mostly unneccesary competitive moves. More interested in blacklisting it atm.

Physical Electric-type coverage: It hits Tomohawk physically when a few have said we don't want to hit Tomohawk physically with SE coverage. They have not really gotten any opposition, so I take this as a sign.
Edit: Realizing that any Physical Electric Coverage is still weaker than Thunder 98% of cases. Physical Electric-type coverage is still fair game.

Psychic Fangs: Similar to above it hits Tomohawk, but it also gives CAP28 a way to hit Kerfluffle super-effectively, who is shown to probably be our most consistent check to CAP28. I am not particularly keen on this choice, and some people seems pretty against it as well. Not blacklisting yet but I am damn close. State objections now.

Sucker Punch: Sounds fine, not sure how much we need it though, especially since we do have Swords Dance and I am skeptical of interactions there. More discussion please.

Things to discuss:

Entry Hazards (Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web)
Dragon Hammer
Sucker Punch
Dragon Tail
Encore
 
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I would like to weigh in on the Dragon Hammer debate. While I am personally quite ambivalent about whether or not we get the move, I think that it is worth stating that some of the arguments against Dragon Hammer have not been very competitively oriented, particularly the argument that it is unnecessary because it is similar to Dragon Claw and if we want a strong stab move we have Outrage. As Pitmore and Revi's calcs show, Dragon Hammer does in fact score some very specific benchmarks over Dragon Claw that does warrant it to be considered a competitive upgrade. I think the point about distribution is also quite moot, as this stage is primarily oriented around competitive implications. If Dragon Hammer was an exact clone of Dragon Claw then that would obviously be worth considering, but as has been shown through calcs, the 10 BP difference does make it different enough to be competitive.

As such, I think we should be reorienting the debate back to whether or not the specific calcs that it hits (guaranteed 2HKO on current Bulky Tomohawk spreads, and an almost guaranteed 2HKO on full defense invested Tomohawk with Band, as well as the guaranteed OHKO on defensive Astrolotl with Boots) should be considered necessary and competitive. I personally think that these specific benchmarks are actually quite important for us to hit, and as such I am leaning towards the idea that Dragon Hammer should be allowed, for the reason that running Choice Band already has quite a bit of opportunity cost to it, and as such the extra power to cleanly 2HKO Tomohawk is that extra bit of oomph to push it into competitively viable territory, especially considering that an opposing Fairy types can easily switch in to it after the first hit on Tomohawk. Cleanly hitting bulky Astrolotl as opposed to the 50% of Dragon Claw is also something that I view as inherently positive considering that Astrolotl's Fire Lash is a clean 2HKO on us, meaning that if we have swapped in on another move such as Spikes, we have the guaranteed win in that matchup.

On to other moves - I personally am not a fan of Sucker Punch. While I don't think it is necessarily that competitively dangerous, I think that Sucker Punch detracts from First Impression, and can potentially change the Dragapult matchup for the worse, and as is demonstrated in the replay, turns us into a potent anti-sweeper, which isn't exactly what we have been aiming for in terms of targeting pivots.

I don't see any problems with Dragon Tail whatsoever. It's very on-concept as it can ruin the positioning caused by Teleport, Volt Switch and U-Turn, and is not that likely to be run on too many sets anyway due to its relatively low base power. Rather than being another move on the set with Taunt, I can feasibly imagine it instead replacing Taunt on a disruption set. As such, I support Dragon Tail.

Entry hazards are something that I don't think we really want or need on CAP 28, because I believe it will actually allow for Pivots to swap in their mons safely as we are less likely to be clicking our strong damaging moves throughout the match if we can set hazards safely. In addition, I think the fact that we have pretty poor matchups against the most common Spinners and Defoggers in the tier depending on what coverage we are running, means thta it will probably be difficult for us to keep them up anyway. I don't support hazards, but with that in mind, if there is one that we have to have, I would prefer it be Stealth Rock. I don't think Toxic Spikes does enough for us, especially considering it needs to be set twice, whereas Sticky Web is something that I believe is too dangerous of a move, as it could allow us to muscle through our switch-ins completely, particularly ones like Astrolotl and special Dragapults.

I am ambivalent on Encore, as I don't think that it will realistically be a viable competitive option. It's an option to be run instead of Taunt or Dragon Tail perhaps, but even then I'm not convinced it does anything better than the other two moves.
 
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Coming out of lurk mode to say Dragon Tail is probably a good choice for the concept, since phazing was considered as a possible anti-pivot option. I'll concede the floor now to someone who has calcs and/or a better argument than "phazing was discussed in previous stages".
 
Also coming out of lurking and keeping this brief lol.

If power is an issue here with Dragon Hammer, would it be worth considering Dragon Rush instead? There's an opportunity cost to run it (effectively) in that it would force CAP 28 to run Compound Eyes over Neutralizing Gas (debatably the lesser of the two abilities, but nonetheless has its interesting niches). It wouldn't be able to be used so universally like Dragon Hammer would.
 
Alright let's do some talky talky points.

Entry Hazards: Sorta similar to what ended up happening with Astrolotl I feel like adding hazards to 28's repertoire is more of a reason to pick 28 in the teambuilder vs. actually fulfilling concept. Not that they certainly don't fit, we determined they were viable options at the start, but after seeing how 28 has shaped up I don't see the necessity in adding them. I'll just quickly go over my thoughts on each of them briefly.
Stealth Rock is the only option I'd consider a worthwhile investment on 28. I've seen a fair bit of complaint on the lack of decent rockers in the current meta (though that's soon to change with DLC2) and out of every other option I think it'd be easiest to fit SR 28 onto a team.
Spikes are... meh. Spike-stack has been shown to be an effective strategy to pair alongside 28 in some test games, but it doesn't require Spikes itself to achieve this. Ferrothorn is a good partner for 28 and honestly if you really need your dragon and spiker in the same slot you're better off with Astrolotl anyways.
Toxic Spikes I am quite ambivalent on atm. Afaik Pex is the only mon that sometimes runs it and it's not really consistent. Having a mon with more offensive presence as a TSpikes setter could be an interesting direction that allows for a wider variety of builds, but I'm not not sure how well it'd gel with 28 itself. I remain thoroughly neutral on TSpikes.
Sticky Webs Absolutely not. We don't need a webs setter capable of breaking to the degree 28 can. Adding webs to this thing is only going to turn the meta into an HO hellscape that I don't think anyone wants to deal with. Hard deny from me.

Sucker Punch: It's kinda just like... why though? No really I don't see what this does for us, there's only a few offensive mons that sucker could actually do good damage against on something like the SD set but even then I'm pretty sure it's not guaranteed to OHKO anything besides dark-weaks like Pult and Paj. I guess it helps 28 clean more efficiently? Maybe? We've already got First Impression as a strong priority option for us, I don't think Sucker would be doing much for us in the grand scheme of things. Neutral leaning to meh.

Encore/Dragon Tail: Wanted to talk about these two together as really I think they serve the same purpose in causing disruption. Personally I feel like Encore is just a "win-more" option combined with Taunt vs it's intended targets, Taunt is more than sufficient to help beat down stuff like Pex. Dragon Tail I think is more interesting, but I have a hard time actually seeing it used. Messing with pivot move users sounds appealing but 28 is quite frail and doesn't really want to be taking on the mons that would be hurt most by Dtail. I'm inclined to give both of these a pass, not problematic in anyway but hardly a requirement.

Dragon Hammer: Ahh, here's the big one. MrDollSteak's post I think excellently elaborates on why the discussion on Dragon Hammer has been a bit odd. I share much of their thoughts but I'd like to particularly mention that the thought of "we have Outrage" doesn't sit well with me. Outrage is an awkward move to say the least, and being locked into a move that can easily let it be revenged is not something 28 wants to be in the position of. I know this falls true of any user of outrage, but particularly with 28's case we want to be wearing down targets for as long as possible, and Hammer allows us to do so slightly more efficiently without having to resort to playing around Outrage's awkwardness. Dragon Hammer should absolutely be allowed, as it gives us clear advantages over DClaw (particularly I think that Astro match-up is very nice) Also have to agree with MDS that arguments more situated in flavor shouldn't be a concern, only the competitive aspects of the move. It's not an exclusive move anymore even in the generation it was made (also I don't consider "becoming exclusive again via omission" a valid argument, but whatever) and CAP shouldn't be having an aversion to it simply because of it's low distribution.

was going to talk a bit about Poison/Steel coverage but it's getting late and my brain is melting, also apologies for any grammar errors that (probably) occured.
 
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