Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[erz]

Weavile @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / adamant (if scarf)
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash / Triple Axel
- Low Kick / Swords Dance / Poison Jab / Iron Tail
- Ice Shard

stopping by to provoke some thinking about weav. gen8 was a hard hit removing suit and punishment from it but now the meta is different. lando-i and zygarde dominate, pex fell off in usage and while still dominant magma trap tran is back. garchomp, dnite and landorus-t fall to it, slowbro is a prefered bulky water atm, tornadus-t is food, fini hates being knock offed and overall the megas who were able to block knock offs like scizor-mega haven't returned.

kyurem-b is the prefered offensive ice-type yet it might not stay for long. weav knock hurts melmetal a lot more than a chip-fusion bolt.
It's not going to be as good as in oras and it won't be metagame defining. But it might be back

 

[Arcueid]

Weavile @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / adamant (if scarf)
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash / Triple Axel
- Low Kick / Swords Dance / Poison Jab / Iron Tail
- Ice Shard

stopping by to provoke some thinking about weav. gen8 was a hard hit removing suit and punishment from it but now the meta is different. lando-i and zygarde dominate, pex fell off in usage and while still dominant magma trap tran is back. garchomp, dnite and landorus-t fall to it, slowbro is a prefered bulky water atm, tornadus-t is food, fini hates being knock offed and overall the megas who were able to block knock offs like scizor-mega haven't returned.

kyurem-b is the prefered offensive ice-type yet it might not stay for long. weav knock hurts melmetal a lot more than a chip-fusion bolt.
It's not going to be as good as in oras and it won't be metagame defining. But it might be back

I honestly thought about fitting Weavile on my teams as its a great offensive Ice-type in a meta dominated by Zygarde and Landorus but if I did run it, I was thinking of running Band/Scarf/HDB. Life Orb just seems like the weakest option as the chip damage over time really hurts. Scarf damage wise feels a bit lackluster on calcs as Low Kick is a 2HKO (69.5-81.8% damage if Adamant), while Choice Band really helps by getting the rolls for OHKO on KyuB. HDB allows it to not get chipped by Stealth Rocks upon switch-in, allowing you to avoid the 2HKO by Specs Spectrier (#4 in usage!), though Weavile gets 3HKO'd on a roll high roll against Modest Scarf Spectrier, while Jolly Scarf makes it a 4HKO. This makes Weavile a decent switch-in against Spectrier, especially if you scout out which set it is.

I do think Weavile has potential to become a neat pick in this meta, however, it just gets overshadowed by Kyurem-Black in terms of overall impact on a game as Kyurem-Black becomes a really threatening late game sweeper with a single instance of Dragon Dance and also really breaks through stall a lot more easily. Weavile on the other hand feels like it'll punch holes early on in the game making life a bit easier for its teammates, making it a good pickup against certain matchups [particularly doing well against Pokemon it outspeeds and do not have a priority move to put a dent in Weavile, while struggling against lineups that include bulky Pokemon like Toxapex as it easily eats a Knock Off and threatens Weavile to switch out with either Knock Off or Scald].

 

[shadowpea]

So I've been trying to run Latios and I actually think it is pretty cool.

Latios have really benefited from the generation shift. The lost of pursuit is the biggest plus, as stuff like Tyranitar and Weavile are no longer able to trap it. It also gained Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere, two of its most important coverage atm and almost completely replaced Surf/Ice Beam. It also benefited from the removal of Hidden Power, as all the mons that were running HP Ice are no longer able to hit it as hard. And its not like it really cares about losing HP Fire when it got Mystical Fire from DLC2.

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Aura Sphere
- Recover

This is the set that I've been mainly running (I'll go over Choice Specs in a bit). This set still hits really hard, have reliable recovery, have Psyshock to hit Blissey, and have coverage for steels. Even Tyranitar isn't that much of a problem anymore because it gets hit hard by Aura. For defensive counterplay, you really just have AV Mage, as just about everything else gets hit by a coverage move. Theres plenty of offensive counterplay though (I can name Pult and Spectrier off the top of my head). This boy also have a diverse selection of moves to choose from, as aside from Mystical Fire and Aura it have Ice Beam, Tbolt, Surf, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball (though these are not run unless you really need them). The speed tier is also really useful as you outspeed Lando-I, Zygarde, Kartana, etc. It can wallbreak, heal, take a few hits, Defog, and can even clean as it can always run Calm Mind. Its good at what it wants to do, be it breaking, defogging, or sweeping. However a bunch of Pokemon forces it out and it needs to be careful of Draco Meteor drops. Imo this is really good and I think it will get more usage when the metagame clears up.

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Trick
- Aura Sphere / Trick

I don't really run this, as I like the freedom to switch moves, but one look at this and you can see how powerful it is. From what I see, just click Draco Meteor and you can claim lives, and click the appropriate coverage and you can claim more lives. Even AV Mage isn't completely safe as Trick can easily cripple it (though you really need to time it well). Combined with a good speed tier imo this have very little defensive counterplay outside of prediction and AV Mage. This is easier to face offensively though as being locked into a move often lets certain threats in. Again, I see being used more as the metagame clears up.

I just like having a speedy offensive player that isn't way too frail and have recovery, and Latios is just that (which is another reason I run LO over specs). It can even provide utility depending on the set it uses, be it removing hazards or crippling walls. I love using Latios and hopes he gets more of the spotlight in the future.

Finishing up with a question: What do you guys think about Latias? I mean Latios outclasses it offensively 99.9% of the time, but besides that, what do you think?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

if ttar goes again, i would love to explore galarian articuno since ttar is one of the few pokemon keeping it out of ou

 

[Sensemaker]

Finishing up with a question: What do you guys think about Latias? I mean Latios outclasses it offensively 99.9% of the time, but besides that, what do you think?

I'm not going to talk about Latios because I haven't used it very much but I do plan to, and I believe the LO 3 attack set wil be best.

Anyway, I want to address your question about Latias because that is something that I HAVE been using very often and I think it's really good and overlooked at the moment. If you're using Latias the same way as you would Latios in this metagame, you're going to feel underwhelmed. The lack of SpA hurts it's ability to break most things, so dealing damage should be left to Latios.

BUT, Latias excels as a utility Scarfer in my opinion. I run it with Draco, Mystical Fire, Trick and Healing Wish. Draco coming off 110 SpA may not be breaking many walls, but it's plenty enough to revenge kill an out of control sweeper, like a KyuB at +1 for instance. Furthermore, the utility of Trick and Healing Wish should not be underestimated. It is really versatile as against offense, you can keep your Scarf to revenge with Draco, or to quickly get a Healing Wish off to give a second wind to your bulky offensive threat, like Melmetal, Zygarde, KyuB and lesser extent Landorus-I. And if you're facing a more bulky and defensive team, where having the speed of that Scarf is not as important, you can trick it away to an opposing wall to cripple it for the game. 110 +Spe nature is fast enough on its own to out speed most bulky mons that are unboosted, to perform the same functions as I described previously.

The Latis are just really good right now in my opinion, for different reasons, and I'm confident their usage will rise with time.

 

[musiquepkmn]

I know lots of people are having trouble with Spectrier, so I'd like to recommend an underrated (and underused) mon who can consistently check Spectrier as well as do some other cool stuff. The Bliss+Pult core is probs the best way to check it, but I like using up only one slot on my team.

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Toxic/Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

Max spdef Umbreon is awesome at checking Spectrier. Even though Blissey takes nothing from any of Spectrier's attacks, it can't do much outside of that (unless you're running Sball). Umb, however, can hit Spectrier super effectively and other physical mons hard with Foul Play while taking Sball like a champ. Boasting an already impressive 130 spdef and 92 hp, Umb's dark typing allows it to resist Spectrier's strongest attacks. Its ability to Wishpass is what pushes it over the edge for me. Although the virgin Clef can teleport (unlike Umb), physdef Clef gets 2hko'd by Sball, and spdef Clef gets 3hko'd. Meanwhile, the chad Umbreon gets 7hko'd by Spectrier, meaning Umb can survive even after it's started snowballing. If the opponent instead tries to Wisp+Hex Umb for even more damage than it can deal with Sball, Synchronize burns it right back, which is extremely helpful if you're running Hex teams, which I do with Umb. Protect allows Umb to stall a turn so it can heal itself with Wish, but requires hard switching in order to Wishpass to its teammates. I often switch between Toxic and Heal Bell, since both are great for different reasons. Toxic allows Umb to put bulky mons that it has trouble defeating on a timer. Heal Bell heals all status conditions done to your team. I've found this to be extremely helpful against Zygarde, because Synchronize can para it after it uses Glare, Heal Bell heals all other mons para'd by it, and Zyg also doesn't want to set up in front of Umb with Ddance or Coil because of Foul Play. Although I run Umb mainly for Spectrier, I've found it to be excellent against Focus Blast-less Lando i. Don't count on it too much against Lando i tho, because there are somewhat better checks and Lando i just demolishes everything. Overall, I highly recommend trying Umb out, it hasn't disappointed me and is a huge asset to my team.

Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 70-83 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 105-123 (26.6 - 31.2%) -- 18.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 152-179 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If I'm not mistaken Blissey no longer has the problem of doing nothing, as now it can teleport out into speed control or another mon that can take a hit and OHKO back. Most well built teams should have something faster than a mere spectrier, although it does face problems for Wisp+Sub sets but those sets are why Spectrier is so hard to deal with and Umbreon deals with those very well.

 

[G-Luke]

I know lots of people are having trouble with Spectrier, so I'd like to recommend an underrated (and underused) mon who can consistently check Spectrier as well as do some other cool stuff. The Bliss+Pult core is probs the best way to check it, but I like using up only one slot on my team.

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Toxic/Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

Max spdef Umbreon is awesome at checking Spectrier. Even though Blissey takes nothing from any of Spectrier's attacks, it can't do much outside of that (unless you're running Sball). Umb, however, can hit Spectrier super effectively and other physical mons hard with Foul Play while taking Sball like a champ. Boasting an already impressive 130 spdef and 92 hp, Umb's dark typing allows it to resist Spectrier's strongest attacks. Its ability to Wishpass is what pushes it over the edge for me. Although the virgin Clef can teleport (unlike Umb), physdef Clef gets 2hko'd by Sball, and spdef Clef gets 3hko'd. Meanwhile, the chad Umbreon gets 7hko'd by Spectrier, meaning Umb can survive even after it's started snowballing. If the opponent instead tries to Wisp+Hex Umb for even more damage than it can deal with Sball, Synchronize burns it right back, which is extremely helpful if you're running Hex teams, which I do with Umb. Protect allows Umb to stall a turn so it can heal itself with Wish, but requires hard switching in order to Wishpass to its teammates. I often switch between Toxic and Heal Bell, since both are great for different reasons. Toxic allows Umb to put bulky mons that it has trouble defeating on a timer. Heal Bell heals all status conditions done to your team. I've found this to be extremely helpful against Zygarde, because Synchronize can para it after it uses Glare, Heal Bell heals all other mons para'd by it, and Zyg also doesn't want to set up in front of Umb with Ddance or Coil because of Foul Play. Although I run Umb mainly for Spectrier, I've found it to be excellent against Focus Blast-less Lando i. Don't count on it too much against Lando i tho, because there are somewhat better checks and Lando i just demolishes everything. Overall, I highly recommend trying Umb out, it hasn't disappointed me and is a huge asset to my team.

Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 70-83 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 105-123 (26.6 - 31.2%) -- 18.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 152-179 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

My problem here is that, while Blissey + Pult are two mons, these mons offer so much utility outside of "Spectrier checks". In almost every match that lacks Spectrier, an Umbreon is a worse Blissey. Quite frankly I don't even see how you could compare Umbreon to BlissPult - its not like Umbreon actually compresses their combined utility (pivot moves, being able to revenge kill almost every unboosted threat). Swapping out a team feat BlissPult for Umbreon doesn't solve the team reasons why I placed these two here in the first place, so I am gonna add another pivot anyways.

 

[Negative Charge]

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Knock Off / Weather Ball
- U-turn / Roost

One of my favorite breakers in the tier. With basically perfect two move coverage, you can customize the last two slots to fit your team. I'm a big fan of knock for punishing the blobs. I currently run enough speed for Adamant Crawdaunt but I have run slower spreads that have come in clutch surviving random stuff (140 HP iirc). Having a Phero + Lando + Heatran check in one slot is nice.

 

[Eeveeto]

Since Umbreon was mentioned, I suggest to people that want to try it out to use Pdef, not Sdef. It will still wall Spectrier and Dragapult won,t make much damage either outside of Specs DM + Rocks. However now it will be able to check other things such as Drill, Lando-T ( SD versions), Zygarde (DD or Band) or Chomp. If Inner Focus is used, it will even stop Cloyster or Bisharp from cheesing you with flinches. Non LO Kyu-B could also be checked, since it needs at least 7 hits (at +1) to 2HKO without factoring Rocks and Protect. +2 Icicle Spear very rarely KOs too: +2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 335-405 (85 - 102.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO .
Lando-I will break you easier with Pdef, but a) it will be banned soon and b) even Sdef Umbreon falls to Focus Blast or CM versions to begin with.

Mixed spreads also work I guess, used them back in ORAS, but didn,t have time to explore EV spreads for Umbreon this gen so far.

 

[alkazoth]

Since Umbreon was mentioned, I suggest to people that want to try it out to use Pdef, not Sdef. It will still wall Spectrier and Dragapult won,t make much damage either outside of Specs DM + Rocks. However now it will be able to check other things such as Drill, Lando-T ( SD versions), Zygarde (DD or Band) or Chomp. If Inner Focus is used, it will even stop Cloyster or Bisharp from cheesing you with flinches. Non LO Kyu-B could also be checked, since it needs at least 7 hits (at +1) to 2HKO without factoring Rocks and Protect. +2 Icicle Spear very rarely KOs too: +2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 335-405 (85 - 102.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO .
Lando-I will break you easier with Pdef, but a) it will be banned soon and b) even Sdef Umbreon falls to Focus Blast or CM versions to begin with.

Mixed spreads also work I guess, used them back in ORAS, but didn,t have time to explore EV spreads for Umbreon this gen so far.

This sounds awesome. I will definitely try this out sometime. KyuB are some of the biggest problems I've faced because (KyuB just sets up, outspeeds, and OHKOs, and (Lando t) sets up rocks and pivots out, not to mention the wide variety of sets it can run that make it hard to predict which set it is. That being said, KyuB is one of the most broken mons in OU and won't be sticking around, but taking more hits from Lando t and Exca seems awesome.

 

[wdogy]

Time to discuss rain!

One of the things I noticed in the usage stats is Pelipper's usage being the highest among the weather setters and it truly shows how rain was heavily used the past 10 days or so. Pelipper is obviously the staple behind any good Rain team as it not only provides Drizzle but it also functions well in providing utility with Defog and damaging significantly well with a 110 BP STAB move named Hurricane. I did feel rain's usage on the ladder was a bit higher but with sand's usage being noticeably low, rain really shined hard on the ladder as there was less contention for changing the weather. For reference, Hippo's usage is down from 12.6% to a whooping 4.51% from last month, Tyranitar dropped from 9.98% to 4.83%, and Pelipper rose from 5.22% to 6.86%. [On a side note, sand's combined usage is still greater than rain, but sand's usage has dropped a lot from the previous meta]

Sand's immense drop in usage also really signifies that the meta has changed from bulkier teams into hyper offense teams being extremely popular on the ladder. A lot of abusers of rain hit extremely hard in weather and are quite fast too and rain offense really breaks down hyper offense teams by constantly keeping the momentum in their favor via Volt Switch/U-turn/Flip Turn until the KOs are within range. Though Genesect's ban is a bit unfortunate for rain teams, I still feel rain is extremely powerful because choiced rain abusers like Barraskewda/Urshifu-R/Kingdra being quite strong against a lot of teams that do not prepare for rain.

tl;dr: Rain is one of the strongest playstyles on the ladder rn, and if you haven't built a rain team yet, I do suggest you build one and give it a try!

Here's a list of Pokemon and the roles done by them that I feel like are great on a lot of rain teams:
Utility:
Swift Swim:
Priority: [both Rapid and Single work great on rain, I prefer Rapid in most cases though]
Damage:
Regieleki checks:
Pivots:

(my apologies if I missed a Pokemon, I feel like these are the most important ones to bring up, and these ones are the ones I've seen the most + used on my teams)

Edit: added Volcanion

I don't think kingdra is a good rain partner this generation. Literally nothing walls skewda under rain. Especially with CC, Nothing walls ferro this generation, and the only thing you can do is sacrifice one mon and revenge kill skewda.

Another addition could definitely be magearna. Magearna loves being under rain, because rain really helps with fire types.

 

[Hobie]

I don't think kingdra is a good rain partner this generation. Literally nothing walls skewda under rain. Especially with CC, Nothing walls ferro this generation, and the only thing you can do is sacrifice one mon and revenge kill skewda.

As someone who has been playing almost nothing but rain since the release of Crown Tundra I disagree with you saying that Kingdra is bad this gen. While Barraskewda is imo the better Swift Swimmer there are a few things it that Kingdra can do better than it. Kingdra still does the massive damage you need it to do and the ability to drop Dracos and Flip Turn out with (imo) its best set in LO can be very nice, unlike the choice locked Skewda. The increased bulk and dragon typing is actually nice for taking some priority hits like non banded Rillaboom Grassy Glide and Urshifu Sucker Punch. Finally there is the distinction of Kindgra being special which means that it can break a few things that Skewda struggles with like Slowbro, Buzzswole, and Toxapex if it doesn't have Psychic Fangs. But yeah Skewda is still better, especially because it doesn't lose to Regieleki under rain which is just kinda sad for Modest Kingdra.

 

[wdogy]

As someone who has been playing almost nothing but rain since the release of Crown Tundra I disagree with you saying that Kingdra is bad this gen. While Barraskewda is imo the better Swift Swimmer there are a few things it that Kingdra can do better than it. Kingdra still does the massive damage you need it to do and the ability to drop Dracos and Flip Turn out with (imo) its best set in LO can be very nice, unlike the choice locked Skewda. The increased bulk and dragon typing is actually nice for taking some priority hits like non banded Rillaboom Grassy Glide and Urshifu Sucker Punch. Finally there is the distinction of Kindgra being special which means that it can break a few things that Skewda struggles with like Slowbro, Buzzswole, and Toxapex if it doesn't have Psychic Fangs. But yeah Skewda is still better, especially because it doesn't lose to Regieleki under rain which is just kinda sad for Modest Kingdra.

Yeah really good point. I haven't really thought about anything other than specs kingdra, but it makes sense why LO kingdra does well.

 

[Kutscher]

Which pokemon do you guys think will come back to ou eventually? My bet is on victini, kommo-o, and galarian articuno all coming back to ou.

(oh and by the way, can we see if zamazenta as a whole can drop to ou? Because we really don't know how overbearing it would be if at all. I was just thinking that would be a neat suspect test after we get zygarde, landorus-incarnate, and kyurem black banned.)

volcarona, hippodown, kommo-o and tangrowth... maybe hydreigon?

 

[CreamyGlasses]

vs Post

I want to preface this by saying I don't think either is too good, but their shared role as an early game pivot that can live any hit and set up rocks is fairly useful on certain offense teams, as well as checking regieleki. As for which one people use, its swampert almost every time, so I gave toad a chance in this post dracovish meta.

So what are the differences? Well, toad has slightly worse bulk on both sides and and slightly less physical power. In reality, with some EV shuffling its not a huge deal, but obvious swampert's superior stats do give it competition. And since both lack recovery every percentage is key in prolonged games, but in general they get three hit KO'd by the same threats, and two hit KO'd by the same threats. The other trade off between them is flip turn vs water absorb, and honestly flip turn is what pert clicks 70% of the time so losing it kinda blows. That said a water immunity is always much appreciated.

The sets:

CB

I find this set gimmicky at best for pert. The idea is when the opponent gets walled and sends in something passive like Clef to trade rocks and the like you can blow it back with a strong eq. The issue is pert is slow and needs defense investment to be bulky. Water/Ground doesn't resist too much physically, and 100/90/90 is merely OK.

So what about the toad? Well, toad has even less natural bulk and seriously is useless defensively without it. Don't run this set on toad, like seriously. Can't even 2hko clef with adamant 252 CB EQ, its a roll. If you really want, here is a spread, but I can't think of a real team to run this on.

CB for mag and volc (Seismitoad) @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 184 Atk / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Liquidation

The set has enough attack to OHKO max hp mag with EQ. Has enough SpeDef for a +1 volc bug buzz. You can flip it to defense if volc isn't an issue for you. Rocks are here because toad has no better options, power whip is less powerful than other moves almost always, and I like the role compression.

Defensive (the better set)

Pert gets the benefit of better stats and flip turn, meaning it pivots and tanks better. Toad gets a water immunity instead of a neutrality. That being said, a water immunity is merely a benefit, not a selling point. For one, never use seismitoad as your only water resist. Most things that use water stab have other stabs that hit toad neutrally, and hard. As a generic physical wall, it can generally take any two neutral non boosted/choice physical hits but no more. This means if you switch into something like a lando t eq, and they predict you to setup rocks and EQ again, your toad is at like 10% and is basically dead.

So what is water absorb good for? Well, it punished choiced water attacks with rocks. That's really the extend of its usefulness. However, this is a very useful trait for switching into pex, Urshifu rapid, of rain kingdra. Being able to pivot around other water attacks and healing is useful as well. It also switched into generic fat mons to get up rocks as well as most fire and non grass move electrics, but so does pert. Both hate status and knock of equally, so I'd only recommend these mons on offense teams who want some hit taking capabilities to buy them time to mount their own attack.

I have two spreads for you all:

Standard (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 140 Def / 108 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Protect/Toxic/Knock Off

This is the bread and butter. Defense investment allows for toad to survive two max attack jolly lando EQs. 12 attack is so EQ always kills 4/0 zygarde substitutes (optional but cheap). The SpDef is arbitrary but useful for tapu koko dazzling gleam and heatran. Use EQ and scald for sure (EQ kills SpDef heatran, hits most mags harder), rocks are equally necessary since that's the whole reason you run the set. Protect can help with longevity but exasperates toads weaknesses to status and knock off. Knock off is generally better in longer games in which toad is bad anyways. Toxic is the most consistent since while the scald + toxic combo isn't unbeatable, its tried and true.


Zygarde Killer (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 188 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch

This set is like previous, but sacrifices SpDef so it can better check zygarde. More physdef to take arrows better, and 72 attack evs + ice punch 2hkos 4 defense zygarde. Not a perfect check, but one or two imperfect checks to zygarde is generally enough for offense. Can replace scald with toxic or knock if you want, but I'd keep EQ.

All in all, toad is OK, and definitely has a niche over pert. But a niche over a niche pokemon is basically pittance so if you feel like seismitoad is too bad to legitimately use I can't say I disagree.

 

[BitBitio]

vs Post

I want to preface this by saying I don't think either is too good, but their shared role as an early game pivot that can live any hit and set up rocks is fairly useful on certain offense teams, as well as checking regieleki. As for which one people use, its swampert almost every time, so I gave toad a chance in this post dracovish meta.

So what are the differences? Well, toad has slightly worse bulk on both sides and and slightly less physical power. In reality, with some EV shuffling its not a huge deal, but obvious swampert's superior stats do give it competition. And since both lack recovery every percentage is key in prolonged games, but in general they get three hit KO'd by the same threats, and two hit KO'd by the same threats. The other trade off between them is flip turn vs water absorb, and honestly flip turn is what pert clicks 70% of the time so losing it kinda blows. That said a water immunity is always much appreciated.

The sets:

CB

I find this set gimmicky at best for pert. The idea is when the opponent gets walled and sends in something passive like Clef to trade rocks and the like you can blow it back with a strong eq. The issue is pert is slow and needs defense investment to be bulky. Water/Ground doesn't resist too much physically, and 100/90/90 is merely OK.

So what about the toad? Well, toad has even less natural bulk and seriously is useless defensively without it. Don't run this set on toad, like seriously. Can't even 2hko clef with adamant 252 CB EQ, its a roll. If you really want, here is a spread, but I can't think of a real team to run this on.

CB for mag and volc (Seismitoad) @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 184 Atk / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Liquidation

The set has enough attack to OHKO max hp mag with EQ. Has enough SpeDef for a +1 volc bug buzz. You can flip it to defense if volc isn't an issue for you. Rocks are here because toad has no better options, power whip is less powerful than other moves almost always, and I like the role compression.

Defensive (the better set)

Pert gets the benefit of better stats and flip turn, meaning it pivots and tanks better. Toad gets a water immunity instead of a neutrality. That being said, a water immunity is merely a benefit, not a selling point. For one, never use seismitoad as your only water resist. Most things that use water stab have other stabs that hit toad neutrally, and hard. As a generic physical wall, it can generally take any two neutral non boosted/choice physical hits but no more. This means if you switch into something like a lando t eq, and they predict you to setup rocks and EQ again, your toad is at like 10% and is basically dead.

So what is water absorb good for? Well, it punished choiced water attacks with rocks. That's really the extend of its usefulness. However, this is a very useful trait for switching into pex, Urshifu rapid, of rain kingdra. Being able to pivot around other water attacks and healing is useful as well. It also switched into generic fat mons to get up rocks as well as most fire and non grass move electrics, but so does pert. Both hate status and knock of equally, so I'd only recommend these mons on offense teams who want some hit taking capabilities to buy them time to mount their own attack.

I have two spreads for you all:

Standard (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 140 Def / 108 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Protect/Toxic/Knock Off

This is the bread and butter. Defense investment allows for toad to survive two max attack jolly lando EQs. 12 attack is so EQ always kills 4/0 zygarde substitutes (optional but cheap). The SpDef is arbitrary but useful for tapu koko dazzling gleam and heatran. Use EQ and scald for sure (EQ kills SpDef heatran, hits most mags harder), rocks are equally necessary since that's the whole reason you run the set. Protect can help with longevity but exasperates toads weaknesses to status and knock off. Knock off is generally better in longer games in which toad is bad anyways. Toxic is the most consistent since while the scald + toxic combo isn't unbeatable, its tried and true.


Zygarde Killer (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 188 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch

This set is like previous, but sacrifices SpDef so it can better check zygarde. More physdef to take arrows better, and 72 attack evs + ice punch 2hkos 4 defense zygarde. Not a perfect check, but one or two imperfect checks to zygarde is generally enough for offense. Can replace scald with toxic or knock if you want, but I'd keep EQ.

All in all, toad is OK, and definitely has a niche over pert. But a niche over a niche pokemon is basically pittance so if you feel like seismitoad is too bad to legitimately use I can't say I disagree.

Actually tbh Pert is quite good in the current meta. I always include bulky waters on my builds and Pert often takes this spot over Pex or Fini for the utility of Rocks and Flip Turn. It checks Melmetal and Blaziken well enough and consistently keeps rocks up. There’s a reason Pert stayed OU through the last tier shift, after all. Seismitoad is bad, don’t use it- Pert is a better rocker and Gastrodon is a better water immunity. The niche of rocker+immunity isn’t worthwhile imo. Seismitoad does have a niche as a breaker and electric immunity on rain teams, tho

 

[G-Luke]

Which pokemon do you guys think will come back to ou eventually? My bet is on victini, kommo-o, and galarian articuno all coming back to ou.

(oh and by the way, can we see if zamazenta as a whole can drop to ou? Because we really don't know how overbearing it would be if at all. I was just thinking that would be a neat suspect test after we get zygarde, landorus-incarnate, and kyurem black banned.)

Hydreigon, Tapu Lele, Tangrowth, Volcarona, Hawlucha and Aegislash. All of these Pokémon are still pretty great - Nasty Plot and superior coverage is enough of a niche for Hydreigon to compete versus Latios, Tapu Lele isn't bad at all, people just overhyped how bad they think it is and once the dust is settled it will reclaim its niche as a potent wallbreaker, with Zygarde being spammed as much as it is I expect Tangrowth usage to skyrocket, Volcarona is a shocking drop imo, and outside of Heatran, its still as good as ever. With full Terrain wars coming back Hawlucha won't miss OU usagd long term, and finally Aegislash is Aegi, I genuinely doubt the meta will develop long term in a way that causes Aegi to not have any success here.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Actually tbh Pert is quite good in the current meta. I always include bulky waters on my builds and Pert often takes this spot over Pex or Fini for the utility of Rocks and Flip Turn. It checks Melmetal and Blaziken well enough and consistently keeps rocks up. There’s a reason Pert stayed OU through the last tier shift, after all. Seismitoad is bad, don’t use it- Pert is a better rocker and Gastrodon is a better water immunity. The niche of rocker+immunity isn’t worthwhile imo. Seismitoad does have a niche as a breaker and electric immunity on rain teams, tho

Pert works but is specific. I understand its use for role compression on teams who want momentum + rocks + some sturdiness but i just choose to also compress water immunity into that slot as well. As for gastro, it doesn't get rocks.

I wasn't calling pert bad, i was calling it specific. Toad is a specific adaptation of another specific mon. Usable for sure, but a niche so narrow I don't know if its worth using

 

[Finchinator]

Landorus has been banned from SS OU.

Fore more information, check out this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-incarnate-is-now-banned-from-ou.3672804/

 

[kd24]

honestly i didnt think landorus was that much better than many of the other premiere offensive pokemon in this tier. somewhat surprised to see it go.

 

[Sickist]

Just wanna give a quick s/o to OU council for the lando-i ban. fuck that mon

2 Mons I did want to bring up as potentially problematic to me are Magearna and Melmetal. I'll start with Melmetal cuz it's pretty cut and dry why I think it's stupid.

Melmetal's signature move, Double Iron Bash, is spammable as heck on CB sets, because it just breaks through half of the would be resists. Zapdos (risking static tho), Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Moltres all get 2HKO'd with small amount of chip (molt gets 2HKO'd regardless), and can't do much back besides either hope for para, scald burns, leech seed, or burn with flame body. Although these are effective deterrents 90% of the time, it's also not hard to chip these pokemon into range of Double Iron Bash. It may not be an issue long term, but I think we should keep an eye on it.

Magearna is still absolutely obnoxious. At first glance, it may be not as great considering the Zygarde-Lando spam that was and is going around, as well as Heatran's popularity. However, Specs sets still just remove anything in it's sights, and CalmMind + Iron Defense + Draining Kiss sets just 6-0 teams that lack a Heatran. The fact that even if you predict wrong with Specs, 90% of the time you still achieve the chip you need to just Fleur or Volt the next time you come in. I don't have THAT much experience vs the setup Mage I mentioned, but Ive seen replays and I've used it, and it just is so hard to stop once it gets even 1 iron defense+calm mind off. Overall, I personally think Magearna should be looked at as soon as the Zygarde issue is taken care of, and keep an eye on Melmetal ,too.

 

[clean]

Good riddance Lando-I !

For me the next mons that should be looked at are Zygarde and Kyurem-B. So far I think the council has done a good job getting rid of broken shit. Keep it up yall.

 

[Arcueid]

Landorus-I is no more

​

Not going to miss this Pokemon at all as it just wiped teams unprepared for the sheer ridiculous amount of sets it ran as in Gravity/Rock Polish/CM/4 attacks. Paired with LO and Sheer Force this was a huge menace to teambuilding and battles and I'm happy I won't have to see it anymore. I'd probably now say that Zygarde and Kyurem-Black are the most troubling Pokemon in the tier now, but its highly likely that Magearna's going to rise up to be broken in the upcoming meta. At the time of writing this, the Landorus-I ban hasn't been implemented yet, so this is all speculation for now but here are some notable Pokemon that really benefit from this ban:


I'll particularly write more about Magearna right now as its usage was already in the top 10 and then Melmetal later after I play a few games on the updated ladder. On a side note, I think Melmetal's the one who benefits from this ban the most after Magearna.

Magearna ​

Magearna was already one of the best Pokemon for me in the meta where Landorus-I reigned supreme, particularly because of Magearna's great 80/115/115 bulk, its fantastic Steel/Fairy typing, its 95/130 attack stats allowing it to opt for a physical attack in the shape of Iron Head on some sets or straight up go for 4 special attacks. Moreover, its slow speed allowed it to function well as a slow pivot with Volt Switch, allowing it to bring in other Pokemon safely because it can particularly sponge attacks well. Its movepool is also fantastic as it has BoltBeam coverage, a 130 BP Fairy nuke, Focus Blast to hit Steels, Flash Cannon/Iron Head to hit Fairies like Clefable. It functions as a check to Kyurem-Black too as it resists Icicle Spear and is only threatened upon switch provided Kyurem-Black gets a critical hit on Fusion Bolt, or if Kyurem-Black has several boosts and a Life Orb, or if Kyurem-Black is carrying Life Orb + Earth Power. Magearna can easily threaten Kyurem-Black with Fleur Cannon, Flash Cannon. or Iron Head. Other than all that, Magearna has the potential to carry a nasty Shift Gear/Calm Mind/Stored Power/Draining Kiss set which is an absolute pain to deal with under screens as Magearna gets a free setup and that set has ridiculous potential for scaling provided it gets a chance to set up, which it almost certainly does because of its amplified bulk under screens. I think that set is definitely the most troublesome to deal with because of the sheer power it carries.

tl;dr: Magearna was already quite strong in the previous meta and it ran AV too sometimes to compliment its bulk, as AV also allowed it to live Landorus-I and KO back with Ice Beam. I can definitely see a trend in which more Magearnas will be offensive, rather than the bulky defensive version in this upcoming meta.

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

Really surprised to see how Kyurem-B is surviving all these ban rounds. I'm starting to think it will stay in OU.

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

One thing I’m concerned about is a chicken and egg situation.

If so many things seem broken because of how offensive the meta is and might become more manageable as and when things get banned, how do we know what to ban first?

If A isn’t as broken without B but B also wouldn’t be as broken without A then how can we ban one before the other?

Just ban them both at the same time