Metagame ADV Doubles OU

[NinjaSnapple]

thread originally created by xzern
ADV Doubles OU
​

Ever wondered what it would be like to play the best format in the best gen? In Ruby and Sapphire, a new way to battle was introduced: Double battles. Doubles offers dynamic play much different from singles formats. Gen 3 Doubles OU, simply ADV Doubles or RSE Doubles, is the purest form of doubles. It's fluid, skill intensive, and most of all, you've never seen anything like it.

The following clauses are in effect:

• Species Clause
• Evasion Clause
• OHKO Clause

Banlist:

• Mewtwo
• Mew
• Lugia
• Ho-oh
• Latias
• Latios
• Kyogre
• Groudon
• Rayquaza
• Deoxys
• Deoxys-S
• Deoxys-D
• Deoxys-A
• Self-Destruct
• Explosion
• Ninjask- NEW

Unbans:

• Wobbuffet
• Wynaut

Notable mechanics differences:

• The most important: When a Pokemon is made to faint, the replacement is sent in before the turn ends.
• There is no team preview. The first two slots on your team are your lead.
• Types are physical or special, not moves.
• Hidden Power exists and has 70 BP.
• Protect has a 1/2 chance of working in succession, instead of 1/3.
• Spread moves have 50% damage reduction, instead of 75%.
• Spread moves that target the entire field (Earthquake, Explosion) have no spread reduction.
• Type-specific boosting items like Charcoal only boost moves by 10%.
• Steel resists Ghost and Dark.
• Sandstorm does not boost Rock types' Sp.Def.
• Ability-summoned weather conditions are permanent.
• Surf does not damage your ally.
• Critical hits do 2x damage.

Tiering History:

Deoxys-Speed Banned; Latias & Deoxys-Defense freed
Deoxys-Defense Banned
Latias suspect vote
Explosion and Self-Destruct banned
Ninjask Banned

Sample Teams:

Note: These sample teams are for a brand new meta that will likely see development across the next few tournaments, so we will try to update the samples frequently to match the metagame.

:rs/tauros: :rs/zapdos: :rs/swampert: :rs/arcanine: :rs/celebi: :rs/aerodactyl: Everyone's BullZap + FWG

:rs/regice: :rs/arcanine: :rs/zapdos: :rs/tauros: :rs/celebi: :rs/metagross: Amaranth's Regice+Arcanine

:rs/arcanine: :rs/raikou: :rs/snorlax: :rs/suicune: :rs/zapdos: :rs/celebi: SEA's Set Up Spam

:rs/raikou: :rs/arcanine: :rs/aerodactyl: :rs/marowak: :rs/zapdos: :rs/regice: Grandmas Cookin's Marowak ElecSpam

:rs/zapdos: :rs/tyranitar: :rs/gyarados: :rs/swampert: :rs/aerodactyl: :rs/metagross: Amaranth's Physical Offense

:rs/zapdos: :rs/registeel: :rs/snorlax: :rs/suicune: :rs/heracross: :rs/arcanine: SEA's Registeel TW Spam

:rs/raikou: :rs/ludicolo: :rs/zapdos: :rs/kingdra: :rs/gorebyss: :rs/tauros: Amaranth's Gorebyss Rain

Sample Teams Archive

Early Post-Boom Ban Era

:rs/zapdos: :rs/tauros: :rs/metagross: :rs/swampert: :rs/gyarados: :rs/marowak: - Grandmas Cookin's GyaraWak

:rs/zapdos: :rs/starmie: :rs/metagross: :rs/swampert: :rs/blissey: :rs/arcanine: - Grandmas Cookin's Blissey Screens

:rs/gengar: :rs/snorlax: :rs/charizard: :rs/exeggutor: :rs/jolteon: :rs/aerodactyl: - zee's Sun HO

:rs/flygon: :rs/zapdos: :rs/aerodactyl: :rs/gengar: :rs/tyranitar: :rs/celebi: - R8's DD TTar Balance

:rs/arcanine: :rs/swampert: :rs/celebi: :rs/zapdos: :rs/tyranitar: :rs/tauros: - NinjaSnapple's Bulky Offense

Latias Meta Sample Teams

:rs/starmie: :rs/gengar: :rs/latias: :rs/steelix: :rs/raikou: :rs/exeggutor:- zee's Fried Egg
:rs/latias: :rs/metagross: :rs/gengar: :rs/snorlax: :rs/sceptile: :rs/tyranitar: - zee's Sceptile
:rs/tyranitar: :rs/zapdos: :rs/latias: :rs/metagross: :rs/suicune: :rs/marowak: - BIG WILL's Calm Mind Suicune
:rs/latias: :rs/swampert: :rs/metagross: :rs/tauros: :rs/zapdos: :rs/tyranitar: - Grandmas Cookin's Counter Swampert
:rs/latias: :rs/arcanine: :rs/gengar: :rs/metagross: :rs/snorlax: :rs/zapdos: - Grandmas Cookin's Arcanine
:rs/latias: :rs/tyranitar: :rs/gengar: :rs/metagross: :rs/zapdos: :rs/regice: - Frania's Regice

Old Latias Era

:rs/houndoom::rs/latias::rs/gengar::rs/metagross::rs/suicune::rs/claydol: - KyleCole's LatiDoom

:rs/latias::rs/snorlax::rs/gengar::rs/metagross::rs/tauros::rs/raikou: - qsns's Normal Spam

:rs/latias::rs/metagross::rs/tyranitar::rs/zapdos::rs/gengar::rs/regice: - SEA's Sand Special Offense

:rs/heracross::rs/latias::rs/raikou::rs/suicune::rs/snorlax::rs/zapdos: - Xrn's Heracross Special Offense

:rs/charizard::rs/heracross::rs/latias::rs/zapdos::rs/gengar::rs/metagross: - zee's Superman

2020 Meta Samples

:rs/jolteon::rs/moltres::rs/metagross::rs/blaziken::rs/aerodactyl::rs/exeggutor: - xzern's sun

:rs/swampert::rs/gyarados::rs/metagross::rs/salamence::rs/tyranitar::rs/zapdos: - finally's ddance

:rs/metagross::rs/gengar::rs/kingdra::rs/ludicolo::rs/omastar::rs/raikou: - xzern's rain (updated by zee)

:rs/raikou: :rs/gengar: :rs/tyranitar: :rs/salamence: :rs/dewgong: :rs/metagross: - SEA's GarKou

Deoxys-S Meta Samples

:rs/metagross::rs/swampert::rs/deoxys-speed::rs/gengar::rs/zapdos::rs/tyranitar: - SEA's swampert

:rs/deoxys-speed::rs/houndoom::rs/vaporeon::rs/zapdos::rs/metagross::rs/salamence: - SEA's deodoom

:rs/deoxys-speed: :rs/houndoom: :rs/metagross: :rs/zapdos: :rs/breloom: :rs/politoed: - zee's anti boomspam

Viability Rankings (ordered as to the last council vote, October 2026)

Tier 1
:Metagross: Metagross
:tauros:Tauros
:Zapdos: Zapdos

Tier 2
:Celebi: Celebi
:Ludicolo: Ludicolo
:Marowak: Marowak
:raikou: Raikou
:Regirock: Regirock
:salamence: Salamence
:suicune: Suicune

Tier 3
:Arcanine: Arcanine
:Blissey: Blissey
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:jirachi: Jirachi
:Kingdra: Kingdra
:Regice:Regice
:snorlax:Snorlax
:swampert: Swampert

Tier 4
:Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:Articuno: Articuno
:Exeggutor: Exeggutor
:Gengar: Gengar
:Hariyama: Hariyama
:Heracross: Heracross
:Moltres: Moltres
:registeel: Registeel
:Starmie: Starmie
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar

Tier 5
:Alakazam: Alakazam
:Clefable: Clefable
:Dewgong: Dewgong
:Electabuzz: Electabuzz
:Gorebyss: Gorebyss
:Granbull: Granbull
:Jolteon: Jolteon
:Jumpluff: Jumpluff
:Kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:Magmar: Magmar
:Milotic: Milotic
:Misdreavus: Misdreavus
:mr. mime: Mr. Mime
:Persian: Persian
:sceptile: Sceptile
:Shedinja: Shedinja
:Wobbuffet: Wobbuffet

Interested in doubles history? Here are some of the oldest doubles threads on the planet.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/2vs2-tier-list-as-of-december.7064/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-analysis-the-2vs2-metagame.6329/

You can also check out the intro to ADV DOU article for Smogon's Flying Press, though several bans have taken place since it's creation, making it a tad outdated: Introduction to ADV Doubles

ADV Doubles council:
Actuarily
Grandmas Cookin
NinjaSnapple
ratpacker
SEA
Schister
zee

 

[spookysocialist]

Thank you for making this thread - ADV doubles is certainly an underexplored format I've never been able to find much info on. Worth adding to the OP, moves that target the entire field in ADV (which I believe is only EQ, Explosion, and Selfdestruct) don't suffer the normal spread move penalty and do 100% damage to all targets. This makes protect even more of a necessity than later gen doubles and almost every mon that gets explosion or EQ will use them. Flygon in particular loves spamming stab EQ while being immune to the same, and everything with explosion becomes more viable.

Also worth noting that redirection is very rare this gen. Storm drain doesn't exist, lightningrod is rare, only on manetric, marowak, and rhydon, and doesn't grant immunity or a boost from electric attacks, rage powder doesn't exist, and the only fully evolved mons that learn follow me are clefable, furret, togetic, magmar, electabuzz, and mr.mime, none of which are viable.

Definitely an interesting metagame and I'm very interested in deo-S's place in it.

 

[SEA]

Thank you so much for making this thread. Very hype.

With that being said, I have some Pokemon I would like to offer up for recommendations.

:rs/politoed: Politoed, much like in ADV singles, has a niche in that it annoys Metagross, thanks to its ability, Damp. This does not only apply to Metagross, of course, as it stops all explosions. It does have some pretty useful moves, like in other generations, such as Icy Wind and Hypnosis, while still being able to fire off some pretty deadly Hydro Pumps so that it isn't completely deadweight outside of stopping Explosions. Using a spread of 136 HP/252+ Defense allows you to eat any 2 physical Metagross hits with Leftovers.

:rs/snorlax: Snorlax is an absolute menace to teams without a proper answer. Not only does it have access to the strongest move in the entire game, being its Selfdestruct, but it is also an incredible wall to teams who don't have a great physical attacker or love to spam Heat Wave or Surf, especially since the damage reduction on those moves in this generation is 50%. Sun teams in particular really struggle with Snorlax, thanks to Thick Fat. Your best bet to taking this thing down are Pokemon like Metagross, who can break it down with continuous Meteor Mashes or just OHKO it with Explosion. If you want to live 2 non CB Metagross Meteor Mashes, running a spread of 132 HP 124 Defense allows you to do so with Leftovers.

:rs/salamence: Salamence is in an interesting position. With Gengar and Deoxys-Speed in the tier, it struggles as they both outspeed it and threaten an OHKO on it with Ice Punch and Ice Beam respectively, barring a great amount of HP/Sp.Def investment (76/180+ to live Timid Gengar Ice Punch, 140/252+ to live Modest Deoxys-Speed Ice Beam). However, it still has quite a large attack and special attack stat, as well as intimidate (with no Defiant, Competitive, or any other Intimidate countermeasure outside of Clear Body). Salamence absolutely packs a punch using a full special set with moves like Dragon Claw, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast coming off of a 110 special attack stat. Its Dragon typing allows it to be a pretty solid countermeasure to Sun teams if they don't pack HP Ice, which on Pokemon like Exeggutor, they may not have enough slots for. It also gets some pretty solid physical moves, like Edgequake coverage in the forms of Rock Slide and EQ. Running an EV spread of 88 HP 172 Sp. Def allows you to live a Zapdos HP Ice. Feel free to put the rest wherever you would like.

:rs/Omastar: :rs/Kingdra: Two Swift Swim sweepers. Omastar is the strongest Pokemon specially with Swift Swim in the game, while Kingdra has a little bit more special bulk to sponge some hits easier, while also not being weak to types like Electric. Kingdra also lets you outspeed the entire metagame with 0 investment in Speed, allowing you to invest a lot in bulk. Other notable Rain Pokemon include Ludicolo, who gets Fake Out as well as Swift Swim, and Gorebyss, who is inferior to Omastar in almost every way except it gets some neat stuff like Safeguard and Baton Pass, and isn't 4x weak to Grass or 2x Weak to Ground. I would only use Gorebyss as a second Omastar.

:rs/Dusclops: It gets Imprison + Protect, allowing you to use Explosion without fearing a Protect blocking it, while also being immune to it. A way around this though is also running Substitute on your Pokemon, as that acts as another Explosion buffer. If you are running a Dusclops, maybe consider putting Substitute on it as well.

:rs/Exeggutor: Probably the best Sun abuser in the game. It has access to Chlorophyll, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Moonlight/Synthesis, and of course, Explosion. Attacks coming off of this thing's monstrous 125 Sp. Atk hit like a truck, especially Solarbeam. Also having the ability to outspeed the entire metagame under Sun with 212 Speed investment (which also outspeeds 0 Speed Deoxys-Speed!) while having Sleep and the 3rd highest Sp. Atk in the metagame is potent. However, outside of Sun, this thing is not great, as it is pretty slow and has an exploitable typing. However, your other Chlorophyll options are much worse, with the next strongest Chlorophyll Pokemon, Sunflora, sporting an abysmal 30 base Speed stat.

As for the Lati twins, with Metagross being the best Pokemon in the tier, I think unbanning Latias is a worthwhile experiment, as it lacks moves like Draco Meteor to really punish things.

Enjoy the tier, there's plenty of cool Pokemon to play around with :)

 

[SEA]

If you wish to challenge somebody to gen 3 Doubles OU, do /challenge user, gen3doublescustom game @@@ standard doubles, !team preview, !Evasion Abilities Clause, -Uber, +Deoxys-Speed.

 

[zee]

Hey there! This format picked up some hype tonight in the RoA room and quite a few users ended up being pretty fond of it quite quickly. I wanted to talk about a few cool Pokemon that I hadn't yet seen in this thread. I'm a VGC player in my main element, so sorry if I'm missing somethings that your typical DOU player would pick up on.

:rs/Alakazam:
Alakazam @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 140 HP / 4 Def / 108 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Encore
- Ice Punch / Fire Punch
- Protect

Deo-S is obviously a very strong pick in this format, but I think Zam has a huge tool in Encore that creates a small niche for it. Encore punishes playing passively around Explosion or other moves with Protect, and it also can OHKO Gengar, as well as 2HKO most CB Metagross with Fire Punch or OHKO Salamence with Ice Punch. Synchronize is also great for punishing sleep and paralysis.

:rs/Breloom:
Breloom @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Sky Uppercut
- Mach Punch / Focus Punch
- Protect / Substitute

Sleep in ADV is quite good, as we all know. While not the fastest available sleeper (that would go to something like Jumpluff, which I'll cover in a second), Spore is of course the most reliable move. Unless Metagross opts for going max speed Jolly, you can outspeed and Spore it or other slow threats such as Swampert and Tyranitar. Speaking of Tyranitar, Breloom puts on a ton of pressure against the "standard" Rock Slide / EQ / DD / Protect set as it isn't touching Breloom much at all without a flinch. Just like Breloom in ADV OU, it pretty much gives anything slower than it trouble, and struggles against almost anything faster than it.

:rs/Hariyama:
Hariyama @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Cross Chop
- Helping Hand

Fake Out, Knock Off, and Helping Hand are really good. Outside of Explosion, raw damage is not as potent in ADV Doubles as in later gens, so fitting Helping Hand boosts on your team can really up the damage output. It partners especially well with something like TTar, as Knock Off + Sand into Helping Hand & +1 Rock Slide is very effective at spreading damage. Rock Tomb can also be opted in for a bit of extra speed control and a way to slow down faster threats.

:rs/Jynx:
Jynx (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Icy Wind
- Fake Out
- Lovely Kiss
- Ice Beam / Psychic

Not sure if it's just because I've been playing a bunch of RBY recently, but I think that Jynx can do a lot of great things for teams with slower attackers. Its typing allows it to stand up pretty well against the Pokemon that are faster than it, and between its three awesome utility moves it can be a real team player. Fast Sleep is good.

:rs/Jumpluff:
Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Sleep Powder
- Cotton Spore / Sunny Day / Hidden Power Grass / Leech Seed
- Helping Hand / Protect / Substitute

The epitome of fast support, something I've been preaching for this entire post. Watch out for Gengar's Taunt and Ice Beam from Deoxys-S, but it can absolutely make life hell for slower teams. It has such a wide variety of support moves that its impossible to guess its set just from hitting the field, which helps to keep the opponent on their toes.

A few more notes...

Speed Kills: There is no Trick Room here. Fast Pokemon pose serious threats. Be sure to find ways to fit Thunder Wave, Icy Wind, and Rock Tomb onto your teams.

Explosion is no joke: I just got done playing a game where 6 Pokemon were wiped off the board in one turn. The max amount of kills double Explosion can pick up in one turn is 7. That's over half the total Pokemon in the game. Yeah...

Free Latias: I don't think Latias is broken. It would provide a lot of good Speed Control, another good Psychic, and all around boasts healthy coverage and stats. I think Latios is a little too strong, but Latias might be worth testing.

Thanks for hearing what I have to say about a metagame I found out existed three hours ago.

 

[unfunny meme]

hey I'm interested in gen3 doubles and here are some good sets imo
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze
- Memento/explosion
- Pain Split
I think this set can check threats with will o wisp to make physical attackers basically uselss, haze to reset set up sweepers like agility metagross and d dance tyranitar, memento or explosion for a powerful finisher when weezing fullfilled its role, and finally pain split for some recovery(even though its not good)
(Regice) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Modest Nature
- Icy Wind
- Explosion
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
I put max def ev because it already has good natural sp def, t wave to cripple things, icy wind for support and make things slower, thunderbolt for coverage, and finally explosion if it already did what it has to do
Im interested in this format and cant wait for more sets

 

[Earthworm]

I had fun playing this in the tour night today, but unfortunately I didn't consider all of the logical options my opponent had and got eliminated. It's quite tricky to consider everything when playing doubles if you aren't used to it! I didn't use anything particularly interesting since I wasn't sure what would work, but I was pretty satisfied with my team. I was using defensive Ludicolo as a support Pokemon and answer to potential Rain Dance teams.

I'm keen to play this more when I have the opportunity.

 

[SEA]

First of all, I'm so glad to see this tier get so much positive reception. I love playing this tier, and I'd like to thank Waves for selecting ADV Doubles in the first place for a tour night. With that out of the way, I'd like to share some of my thoughts on the metagame and some neat Pokemon to be used.

:rs/dewgong:
Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 192 HP / 216 SpD / 100 Spe
Calm Nature
- Fake Out
- Encore
- Icy Wind
- Protect
mish
Fake Out is scarce in ADV, and Dewgong has the added bonus of Encore, which in ADV, can last up to 6 turns. It has a couple key things over the other Fake Out + Encore user, Mr. Mime: Thick Fat and Icy Wind. Dewgong can act as a sun check with access to Thick Fat, although Exeggutor will still shred you. Obviously, Icy Wind is a great support move, as speed control is very important in Doubles. The only real downside to using this is your lack of offensive presence, meaning you can just sit there while your partner keeps getting hit, which Mr. Mime can remedy with a few coverage moves. Protect is a generic last slot, and can be filled for moves such as Surf or maybe Disable. Not something that should be thrown onto every team, but I think it's an interesting option.

:rs/marowak: I feel like Electric is an incredibly spammable type in this tier, and Marowak will make sure that doesn't happen. With Deoxys-Speed, Gengar, and Zapdos all able to freely throw out Thunderbolts, it'll be tough for your team to sustain that damage for a long period of time otherwise. Marowak is obviously not flawless, and can be hit by all of the aforementioned Pokemon via Ice Beam, Ice Punch, and HP Ice respectively.

:rs/raikou: :rs/zapdos: And maybe some more Electrics. Somebody I played a while ago made me realize that the majority of my teams get 6-0d by Raikou. Thunderbolt is incredibly spammable, and these two are really tough on a team defensively. Raikou being only hit SE by Earthquake honestly makes it pretty tough to deal with. Zapdos can be hit with various different Rock Slides or Ice Beams, but is Ground immune.

:rs/ludicolo: It has Fake Out and it shuts down rain teams really hard. And, of course, offensively, it is a rain sweeper that can threaten opposing waters. With a general lack of Flying, Poison, or Bug moves present in the tier, this thing can really be a pain to kill sometimes. Of course, anything that's not Damp or a Ghost falls to the great equalizer, Explosion. Its presence can easily force either Explosion or a switch from Metagross, as it doesn't really carry the moves to hit it. There's not much more that it does, but it does those things incredibly well.

:rs/metagross: I still feel this is the uncontested #1 in the tier. Metagross is super splashable on every single team. The only issue I have is needing one of Rock Slide or Earthquake when I have the other. Being immune to Intimidate is honestly huge. xzern has even used Agility Metagross vs me, which can get really dangerous really quickly. I have started running Will-o-Wisp on my Gengar just for this thing. With all of that out the way, this doesn't feel like an unbeatable Pokemon, really. You can easily chip it down through repeated attacks, such as multiple rain boosted Surfs or Zapdos Thunderbolts. I've only tried out physical Metagross sets as well. I think mixed or special Metagross could be nice, with Psychic to punish Gengar that tries to burn you.

:rs/deoxys-speed: This thing is quite good. It's not great at OHKOing Pokemon, and therefore is probably best used late game as a cleaner. It has enough bulk to take a hit or two as well. The worst thing about using this is it only has 4 move slots. It has such great coverage that you really just want everything on it. I've been fooling around with Calm Mind and mixed sets, but I think full special might be the way to go here.

:rs/latias: I think this could feasibly be unbanned. It'd certainly be effective against sun and rain teams, albeit not so much the latter due to Ice Beam. I think we could see a trend towards a more physically based metagame if this gets unbanned. It would likely play second fiddle to the omnipresent Metagross.

All I can really ask for is more people playing this tier. It's still fairly new, and I'm very glad to see it grow. It's great fun, and this might be a way for some of the players older generations to get into Doubles as a format.

 

[BlueRay]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but if you make use of Berries like Petaya Berry, they will only activate after you finished your turn. Say, if you want to attack with Exeggutor and you know it's slower than the opposing Salamence and you hope that the opposing Hidden Power Flying will activate Exeggutor's Held Item, forget it, as it will only boost your Special Attack after you finished your turn.

Also, while Trace can copy opposing Intimidate, it won't apply the effect!

 

[unfunny meme]

hey guys i made a weird anti lead strat
cardi b (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD or 252 HP / 4SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
- Protect
- Recover

trap (Dugtrio) @ Focus Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Earthquake
i made an odd perish trapper set where celebi uses perish song and dugtrio just protects and subsitutes until the last perish turn where they switch, tho caution this set can fail against fast taunts like deoxys speed and gengar but besides that i think this is a fun and chaotic strat because why not

 

[dhelmise]

• Spread moves have 50% damage reduction, instead of 75%. (currently not implemented on ps)
• Spread moves that target the entire field (Earthquake, Explosion) have no spread reduction. (currently not implemented on ps)

Click to collapse...

fixed these btw so they're on ps now

 

[SEA]

Hello everybody, I've finally decided to get around to this: the ADV DOU Viability Rankings! (at least my own opinion, I'm sure xzern has some different opinions) Without further ado, let us begin!

S Rank: Metagross.

:metagross: Metagross​

The undisputed #1 of the tier. It's almost throwing if you aren't using this Pokemon. You REALLY have to justify not using it. Explosion can get you out of some really bad situations, Meteor Mash hits like a truck, and its ability to sponge hits is awesome. It isn't without flaw, and one of the bigger issues is wanting 5 move slots. Having to explode on Zapdos because your 4th move is Earthquake is pretty annoying. And while it can sponge a few hits, it is pretty susceptible to being worn down by multiple strong attacks, like Zapdos Thunderbolts. It is forced to explode when faced by Water types. Really susceptible to burns without a Lum Berry, and not using Leftovers means that your longevity is greatly reduced.​

​

A+ Rank: Pokemon that can fit on a large amount of teams and will consistently contribute.

:gengar: Gengar​

Incredibly splashable. Support sets are annoying with Taunt and Wisp, and offensive sets put up a ton of pressure with Thunderbolts and Ice Punches. It can grab some sneaky kills with Explosion, while also being immune to Explosion. Earthquake immunity is pretty nice as well. It is very frail, and can be easily dispatched with a hit or two. It hates Deoxys-Speed's existence a lot, as Deo-S way outspeeds it and shuts down anything it may try to pull. Metagross + Gengar is a crazy good lead combination, so much so that myself and others are beginning to counterlead.​

​

:zapdos: Zapdos​

Thunderbolt is just as spammable in Doubles as it is in Singles, and Thunder Wave provides a crazy good amount of team support. It isn't nearly as reliant on Hidden Power in Doubles, as it has a teammate to cover the Pokemon it can't hit. Rock Slide being cut by 50% is crazy good for Zapdos. It can reliably sponge a Tyranitar Rock Slide, and non-STAB Rock Slides bounce off of it. It has a surprising amount of bulk, and can live a lot more than you might expect. It hates the omnipresence of Ice moves in the tier, from Deo-S, Gengar, and the plethora of Water types. It also hates being slowed, either through status or through moves like Icy Wind.​

​

A Rank: Pokemon that are splashable, but have flaws that prevent them from being amazing.

:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed​

An abundance of Speed is a massive boon for this Pokemon, as it coincides with some great coverage. Fast Taunt can be pretty nasty against weather teams. Despite having some excellent coverage, it really doesn't pack much of a punch. Moves like Fire Punch tend to bounce off of targets like Metagross, and it only really does significant damage if the target is frail or 4x weak. For this reason, it's very easy to send this thing out early and have it do nothing because the opponent isn't sufficiently chipped for Deo-S kills. Ice Beam still hits everything pretty hard, but your other moves really leave you wanting more. Its general frailty is also disappointing. It can eat one hit from just about anything, but don't expect more than that.​

​

A- Rank: Pokemon that can fit on a large amount of teams, but have a few glaring weaknesses.

:tyranitar: Tyranitar​

This Pokemon is not nearly as splashable as in Singles, but still pretty good. The largest issue with Tyranitar is the 50% cut to Rock Slide, as it means your damage will be middling off of your STAB. You could opt to run something like Hidden Power Rock to slam Pokemon like Zapdos, but you're already strapped for move slots as is. Special/Mixed Tyranitar is still threatening, just less so with the existence of various forms of speed control and Water types.
​

:moltres: Moltres​

A very solid answer to the best Pokemon in the tier. When given Speed control support, can really devastate opposing teams. Fire Blast hits like a freight train, and Heat Wave is quite spammable. It really hates the Rain matchup, and it can allow Tyranitar to Dragon Dance for essentially free if you aren't running Will-O-Wisp. Zapdos also outspeeds and OHKOes it with Thunderbolt. Water types in general destroy this thing, but that's why you have a teammate, to deal with those worse matchups. It's pretty splashable, but you need to be able to account for Tyranitar and Zapdos.

:salamence: Salamence​

Intimidate support is always good, and Salamence is probably the most well-rounded Intimidator. Special/Mixed Salamence are really dangerous to opposing teams, but I don't think physical is very good. The abundance of Ice moves really hurts its viability, but Intimidate will always be good in Doubles formats. Deoxys-Speed and Gengar are two massive pains for this thing, as well as bulky waters. Of course, these can all be dealt with via your teammates, and supporting Salamence properly can allow it to really dent the opponent's team.​

​

B+ Rank: Pokemon that will consistently contribute, but have competition that may fit better on other teams.

:milotic: Milotic​

The first of many Water types to come. Milotic has great special bulk and passable physical bulk, but what sets it apart is its 100 Sp. Atk stat and access to Hypnosis and Recover. The other main Hypnosis Water type, Politoed, doesn't hit as hard and lacks the speed tier that Milotic has. What Milotic lacks though is an immunity to Explosion, unlike Politoed. The issues with it are fairly plain to see: Bulkier Pokemon are much easier to take down when they can be double targeted in a turn. You want a lot more EVs than you have available to you. You really want Recover, but you also really want all of Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/Protect/Icy Wind/Hypnosis. Despite these flaws, Milotic still performs consistently well. Offensively, it hits like a truck with Hydro Pumps or provides great support with Icy Wind, while being able to pretty easily shut down Rain teams (except for HP Grass Ludicolo).​

​

:suicune: Suicune​

A different kind of bulky water. Instead of a general glue bulky water, Suicune functions as a potent win con. When given the opportunity to Calm Mind, Suicune can very easily tip the game in your favor. The issue therein lies in finding the opportunity to Calm Mind. You are very susceptible to Electrics, Taunt, and Explosions. Once Suicune gets going though, it can be very difficult to stop. Pairing it with support such as Fake Out or Follow Me is not a bad way to make sure Suicune is sustained. It's well worth the support.​

​

:jirachi: Jirachi​

Metagross typing with better special bulk, much better speed, and a lot more coverage. It functions more like a wincon than Metagross does, similarly to the comparison of Milotic and Suicune. Jirachi lacks Explosion and a monstrous Attack stat to pound everything like Metagross does, so it is way lower. Instead, it beats everything via Calm Minds and coverage. It is easier to find a time to set up Jirachi than Suicune, but Jirachi doesn't have the Suicune bulk to last as long. It suffers incredibly from 4 moveslot syndrome. You want way too many attacks on this thing.​

​

B Rank: Pokemon that either require support to be wholly effective, or provide effective support.

:celebi: Celebi​

It functions similarly to Jirachi, but it's better/worse against specific Pokemon. It's better against Electrics and Waters, and worse against Steels. Not as splashable as Jirachi, but teams looking for a bit more Zapdos or Water type insurance get a ton of value out of it.​

​

:raikou: Raikou​

Another Calm Mind Pokemon. It's pretty difficult to find a time to get this to set up, as Earthquake is not uncommon, but once you can get that first Calm Mind, you're in business. Thunderbolt is incredibly spammable, and having a resistance to it as well as the ability to spam boosted Thunderbolts is awesome. It also has a great speed tier. It pretty much dies to every Earthquake, though.​

​

:gyarados: Gyarados​

The second best Intimidator, with a better support movepool but less offensive presence. Dragon Dance Gyarados is nigh impossible to pull off, but its unboosted physical attacks can do some pretty decent damage. Support wise, it has access to moves like Thunder Wave and Icy Wind, while sporting a pretty beefy Special Defense stat of 100. Gyarados loves Marowak support, and that makes it much more difficult to kill. Gyarados can actually function with a Dragon Dance set if given Marowak support, but outside of it, good luck.​

​

:ludicolo: Ludicolo​

Outside of being a Rain sweeper that can hit opposing water types, it also functions as a Rain counter with Fake Out, as well as a passable special sponge in general. It can get pretty strapped for move slots, and it should not be your only special check, as it can get worn down pretty easily.​

​

:snorlax: Snorlax​

It has the strongest move in the game: STAB Selfdestruct. It won't work as a wincon with curse, but it'll be an effective special sponge for your team. It gets pounded by physical attacks, and can really quickly do middling damage due to Intimidate.​

​

B- Rank: Pokemon that fill specific roles, but they execute those roles very well.

:houndoom: Houndoom​

This thing has one job, but it fulfills that one job excellently. Alongside Deoxys-Speed, it smashes the Metagross + Gengar lead combination. While other Fires could beat Metagross just as well (if not better), they don't beat Gengar like Houndoom does. Boomless Gengar loses really hard to Houndoom. It's a pretty specific niche to fill, but it's a pretty great one to fill. Oh yeah, it also beats Superpower-less Deoxys-Speed, and it's immune to Fire.​

​

:dewgong: Dewgong​

Never in my life did I think Dewgong would be this high on any Viability Rankings, but here we are. This thing is sick. Fake Out, Encore, Icy Wind, +1. Encoring a slowed Pokemon into Protect for up to 6 turns is awesome, and Fake Out is obviously invaluable. It's just a bit passive, but constant Icy Winds and Encores will absolutely make your opponent angry enough to want to attack this thing. Not a perfect fit on every team by any stretch of the imagination, but the teams on which it fits it does incredibly well.​

​

:exeggutor: Exeggutor​

It's a Sun sweeper with Explosion and Sleep Powder. It struggles like hell outside of Sun, so be wary.​

​

:Kingdra: Kingdra​

It's a Rain sweeper. Not much more to add.​

​

:hariyama: Hariyama​

The only Pokemon to get both Fake Out and Helping Hand. It has a really beefy Attack stat of 120, and can either absorb status with Guts or sit on Sun teams with Thick Fat. It hates the existence of Salamence, Zapdos, Deoxys-Speed, and the other Psychics. It has a huge problem with moveslots.​

​

:politoed: Politoed​

Politoed is the best answer to the best Pokemon in the tier: Metagross. Damp completely shuts down Explosion from Metagross, as well as the other Exploders in the tier. It also provides support via Hypnosis and Icy Wind, and can fire off a Hydro Pump or two to deal sizable amounts of damage.​

​

:togetic: Togetic​

Togetic gets all of Encore, Helping Hand, and Follow Me. Clefable gets Follow Me and Encore, but I haven't used it enough to gauge its effectiveness. Togetic, on the other hand, is a pretty decent Follow Me user. It has respectable bulk, other good support moves (Thunder Wave, Helping Hand, Encore, Yawn, Dual Screens). Has a real issue with being passive, but Follow Me prevents your opponent from ignoring it.​

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:marowak: Marowak​

A great team support Pokemon. With the prevalence of Electric types like Zapdos, or Thunderbolts from Gengar and Deoxys-Speed, Pokemon weak to Electric such as Moltres or the abundance of Water types in the tier, being able to redirect Thunderbolts at the cost of no health is fantastic for you. However, the same things that you are redirecting Thunderbolts from destroy Marowak.​

​

:steelix: Steelix​

Steelix does really well vs Metagross and Electrics, and it has Explosion. It REALLY hates Water types, but it can probably eat a Surf and use Explosion to Retaliate. Use Hidden Power Rock over Rock Slide so that you can slam Zapdos.​

​

C Rank: Pokemon that are good on specific teams, but are usually not good fits on most teams.

:dusclops: Dusclops​

It has Imprison + Protect to completely stop opposing Protects, allowing free Explosions/attacks. It has a pretty good support move pool as well, in stuff like Icy Wind and Helping Hand. The biggest issue is just how passive it is.​

​

:jolteon: Jolteon​

Jolteon provides good weather support to Rain teams with Rain Dance, Helping Hand, and Rain accuracy boosted Thunders. It provides mediocre support on every other team, which other Pokemon can fill.​

​

:lapras: Lapras​

Lapras is a Water immune that also 4x resists Ice Beam. It completely destroys non Ludicolo Rain sweepers, and shuts down a lot of Suicune/Milotic sets. It's a bit weak to Metagross, definitely struggles vs Electrics, and it isn't great vs TTar.​

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:golduck: Golduck​

Golduck's ability Cloud Nine hard shuts down Rain and Sun teams, and Calm Mind Golduck is a dangerous wincon vs Rain. Cloud Nine also allows you to gain Leftovers in Sand. It has pretty average stats overall, but Cloud Nine gives it a small niche on teams.​

​

:espeon: Espeon​

It's a Psychic type with Helping Hand. Psychic is pretty spammable, except against Tyranitar and Metagross, which is why you have Helping Hand. It's seems pretty mediocre on paper, but it put in a ton of work when I tested it out.​

​

:flygon: Flygon​

I used this thing and I found it incredibly underwhelming. It doesn't hit nearly hard enough for my liking. It does destroy DD Tyranitar, and STAB Earthquake hits with a degree of strength, but it hates all of the ice moves around in the tier.​

​

:vaporeon: Vaporeon​

It's a Water type with a ton of Sp. Atk and Helping Hand. Usual Water type issues apply.​

​

If I didn't put something on here, I either didn't think it was good enough to be put on here, or I haven't used it enough to form a substantiated opinion on it. This tier is still new, so feel free to try out some stuff I didn't put on here!​

 

[zee]

my tier list

This list is ordered with the exception of D rank. I'll give some brief thoughts on all S/A ranks and some additional thoughts on other lower tier standouts.


S+ and S Ranks:
:metagross: Without question, Metagross is the boss of ADV DOU. Anyone that I've played can tell you how much I like the max speed Choice Band set, as you can go for quick and fast damage with any move of choice, but 3 attacks with lefties and lum aren't that bad either if you're more willing to boom early on. But that doesn't really cover why its the best, so let's get to it

• Has the most deadly combo of spread attacks in the format and highest attack stat to use them
• Two weaknesses only in Fire and Ground, both of which have very easy counterplay, almost impossible to OHKO outside of sun boosted fire attacks
• Meteor Mash boosts can quickly spiral out of control
• Allows for very easy pins to be created
• Naturally positive matchups vs other top threats like Deoxys and Tyranitar

:gengar: While SEA and I agree that Gengar is the second best mon in the format, I wanted to give it a tier all to itself. It rivals Deoxys in terms of being the most versatile Pokemon, with access to multiple status and coverage options, as well as the obvious Explosion. It packs two crucial immunities to Explosion and Earthquake, allowing it to switchin very easily and apply pressure or combo with your own Metagross in an attempt to clear the board with Explosions.

A Rank:
:zapdos: Zapdos got off really good here. The only Ice attacks it ever has to worry about are nonstab, with the rare of exception of the occasional stab Icy Wind from Dewgong, and Rock Slide has been nerfed to 50% of its original damage as long as its a spread move. This means that bulky Zapdos spreads make it quite annoying almost demand that you spend 2-3+ attacks on it trying to bring it down, in the mean time it can 2hko almost anything it pleases with Thunderbolt or spread Paralysis for slower late game attackers such as Metagross/Tyranitar/Breloom etc.

:swampert: Pert is both the best bulky water and best ground in the format, without question. Its typing grants it notably positive matchups versus Metagross and Tyranitar (at the very least, forcing Gross to go boom). I've been using Hydro Pump over Surf due to the spread reduction, and I have to say it's almost necessary. Earthquake and Ice Beam have been my favorite lasts, but I have seen Icy Wind and Toxic in a few games I've spectated (not on the same set, worth noting). So yeah, a lot of the reasons Pert is good in ADV singles carry over here, it might honestly be even better due to just how good Earthquake is in this meta.

:deoxys-speed: People seem to have a moment of shock when they release Deo-S is unbanned in this format, but it's honestly really cool. Due to the lack of Trick Room and Tailwind in this gen, it's way better here than any future doubles format for sure, but still not overbearing. I'd say Deo's greatest strength is that it's incredibly customizable to the role that you want it to fulfill. I've had a lot of fun using a bait lead of Houndoom + Deo-S that baits in Tyranitar, only for my Deoxys to have just enough attack EVs to OHKO standard Ttar with superpower. It also works great as a Twave spammer, late game CM wincon, and so much more.

:tyranitar: In most games, I actually don't think Tyranitar is that good, however, there is one situation that it seems to thrive in more than any other Pokemon in this format: being the last mon sent out. If you can spend the earlier turns of the game baiting in and removing any Ttar checks, it can devastate endgames with just one Dragon Dance. The standard QuakeSlide spread combo is honestly so good, it can easily pull of endgame 1v3s if the right conditions have been set for it. I've also been using MixTar on one of my teams, and it's pretty cool there as well, but it obviously doesn't have the potential to win games on its own like the aforementioned DD tar.

Other Pokemon:
:Breloom:I had high hopes for Breloom before I really got into this format, and it honestly hasn't let me down. It's really deadly if you can pair it with something like an Icy Wind spamming bulky Water, as it can pretty much be guaranteed to drop Spores and run the opposing team over. Fighting coverage/Priority is also sick.

:Houndoom: Probably my favorite Pokemon in this format honestly, Fire/Dark is insane offensive coverage. If you pair it with anything that has positive Tyranitar and Swampert matchups, it can put your opponent on the backpedal really fast, especially if you use lead Doom and catch something like their lead Metagross.

:Flygon: Sucks. Don't use it. Please. I'm trying to help you.

:Hariyama: + :Kingdra: I got absolutely wrecked by this lead in a friendly game about a week ago. Kingdra's so fat that it can guarantee Rain Dance for itself with Fake Out support, and then decimate with Helping Hand & Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps. If you look at SEA and my S and A ranks, you'll notice there's one combined Water resist, and that dies to Ice Beam. Yikes.

:Alakazam: Zam is great. It puts a ton of pressure on the opponent with its high special attack and speed as well as encore, and has two very useful abilities in Synchronize and Inner Focus. Simple and effective.

I've had a lot of fun with this format so far, excited to hit the ladder soon and hopefully I'll have a good time in the minitour. I'll leave you with some teams!

:houndoom: :deoxys-speed: :metagross: :breloom: :politoed: :zapdos: - the infamous Houndoom DeoS lead team

:gengar: :deoxys-speed: :metagross: :alakazam: :swampert: :zapdos: - Double Boom, Double Psychics

Edit: Forgot to include the tiermaker link I made, feel free to use it yourself here. Note that there a lot of fringe viable Pokemon not here, such is the way of doubles...

 

[MJburns]

Hey, I've recently started playing this meta once it hit the ROA showdown ladder, and I have to say that it is really quite fun! I'm not that well versed in the meta though, so I'm sorry if what I say next isn't all that informed or in tune with the meta currently, but I wanted to talk about a mon that I haven't seen on this forum post at all yet, and think is currently being slept on.

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Protect
- Heat Wave
- Helping Hand
- Hidden Power [Grass]

When I just started to play this metagame, and I was perusing the teambuilder, Arcanine caught my eye. Going from my (admittedly limited) experience from current gen VGC, I thought that Arcanine would be a decent pick, and I was right. Right off the bat, it's got some crucial doubles attributes in intimidate and helping hand (which I didn't even know it had). Secondly, it's got the coveted ADV Fire/Grass coverage, with heat wave also being a decently strong spread move. Finally, while it is weak to some (ok, most) spread moves, it's able to take advantage of ADV's 50% reduction to spread move's power in doubles to the point where it can take at least one STAB Rock Slide/Surf, while non-STAB's bounce right off. I found that, if paired in the lead slot with something like HP Ice Zapdos (or Raikou), it can pretty reliably take on the Gengar/Metagross combo that's so feared; Gengar's explosion is weakened to the point where it isn't able to KO either lead, while the combination of Heat Wave and Tbolt can take care of Metagross before it can explode or EQ in return. Not to mention that Gengar isn't able to hurt Arcanine too much on the first turn without explosion, meaning that if it chooses to stay alive and attack, it won't be doing too much damage.
To talk about the set itself, I'd say it's pretty self-explanatory. Protect because duh, Heat Wave for a reliable STAB and spread move and Helping Hand just being a really good tool for helping bump up the power of, say, a Zapdos Tbolt or Metagross Explosion. In the last slot, I'm keen on HP Grass, because if it's paired with a HP Ice Zapdos, the combined coverage allows for almost perfect neutral coverage on everything in the meta as well as allowing each mon to beat the other's checks (Arcanine beats Pert, Zapdos beats Mence etc.). Other options in the last slot can go to Crunch for a stronger hit on something like Gengar or Deoxys, another STAB move so you're able to hit a single target harder, or Sunny Day, which lets you annoy Rain pretty effectively, and lets you reset Ttar's sand if you so choose. The EV's are pretty self-explanitory too; 252 HP for general bulk, 56 speed to outrun 252 Metagross, and the rest dumped into SpA for power. You could swap the HP and SpA EV's, or put the SpA EV's into Defence or something, but I found the current EV's to be the most effective.
Obviously I'm not saying that this mon is currently top-tier or anything; Salamence gives it serious competition as an intimidator, and Moltres and Houndoom as a fire attacker and Metagross check, but I feel as if Arcanine's abilities are being a bit slept on rn, and I just wanted to bring it to light.
As of a VR placement, I'm not really all that good at choosing where mons should be placed on a VR, and I'm not really sure if anything I just said was valid or not, so I'll just leave it's potential ranking to others.

 

[SEA]

Here is a collection of sample sets for (almost) every Pokemon listed in either mine or zeefable's tier list: https://pokepast.es/bf1d045d4a0f51b4 The rest of this post will be explaining certain EV benchmarks/options on sets.

:Celebi: 176+ Speed hits 308 Speed, which outspeeds Timid Moltres, and 176 Speed hits 280 Speed, which outspeeds Modest Moltres. 48 HP hits a Leftovers number, and the rest is dumped into Defense. Giga Drain should be used in tandem with Hidden Power Fire, which will allow you to dent Metagross at the cost of Psychic.

:Deoxys-Speed: 96 Speed outspeeds Modest Omastar in Rain. Deoxys-Speed has an absurd amount of coverage, so you should use whatever coverage moves would assist your team the most.
180+ Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Dewgong: 184 Speed hits 222 Speed, which allows you to outspeed 252 Speed Tyranitar and base 100 Speed Pokemon after they get hit by an Icy Wind.
252+ SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 184+ SpD Dewgong: 261-308 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Dewgong Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 173-204 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Dusclops: 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 68+ Def Dusclops: 127-150 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, rest invested in Sp. Def.

:Gengar: 96+ Speed hits 308, allowing you to outspeed +Speed base 90s. You can also opt to use max Speed max Sp.Atk should you not care for the bulk and would just like a fast Rain Dance/Sunny Day/Taunt. You can throw on whatever Gengar coverage would assist your team the most.
252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Psychic vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Gengar: 272-320 (84.2 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Golduck: (Support) 252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Golduck: 306-360 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Gyarados: (Support) 168+ Speed allows you to hit 264 Speed, outspeeding base 130 Pokemon after hitting them with an Icy Wind.

:Hariyama: 252+ SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 32 HP / 72 SpD Hariyama: 368-434 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, max Attack, rest in Defense.
252+ SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 76 HP / 56 SpD Hariyama: 377-444 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 76 HP / 252 Def Hariyama: 201-237 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
20 Speed investment for -Speed Swampert, rest in Attack.

:Jirachi: Hidden Power Grass should mostly be used in conjunction with Fire Punch.

Rain Dance + Thunder allows you to be a Rain support Pokemon while still spreading paralysis.

:Kingdra: 196 Speed guaranteed outspeeds Deoxys-Speed in Rain.

:Lapras: 252 SpA Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 72 SpD Lapras: 338-398 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 84 Speed to outspeed 0 Speed Metagross, max Sp.Atk for most damage possible, rest in Defense to improve rolls vs Metagross Meteor Mash.

:Ludicolo: 184 Speed outspeeds 252 Speed Tyranitar outside of Rain.

:Metagross: 252+ SpA Charcoal Moltres Heat Wave vs. 208 HP / 48 SpD Metagross in Sun: 297-350 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Charcoal Moltres Heat Wave vs. 140 HP / 92 SpD Metagross in Sun: 282-332 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
100 SpA Metagross Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 265-312 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

188 Speed Investment hits 223 Speed, 2 faster than 252 Speed Tyranitar.

144 Speed hits 212 Speed, which outspeeds Deoxys-Speed creeping Modest Omastar in Rain.

:Milotic: 96 Speed outspeeds base 100 Speed Pokemon after they have been hit by Icy Wind.

+2 252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 12 Def Milotic: 293-345 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery, 184 Speed for 252+ Speed Tyranitar, and rest in Sp.Atk.

:Moltres: (Hidden Power Fighting) 204 Atk Moltres Helping Hand Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, max speed, rest Sp.Atk.

:Politoed: "Using a spread of 136 HP/252+ Defense allows you to eat any 2 physical Metagross hits with Leftovers." 8 Speed to not speed tie with either 0 Speed or 4 Speed Metagross, rest Sp.Atk.

188 Speed hits 223 Speed, 2 above 252 Speed Tyranitar. Max Sp.Atk, rest in Defense. 188+ will allow you to outspeed 252+ Speed Tyranitar.

:Raikou: 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Raikou: 272-320 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, hit 352 Speed, rest in Sp.Atk.

:Salamence: 252 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 88 HP / 168 SpD Salamence: 299-352 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, outspeed 252+ Speed Tyranitar, rest in Sp.Atk.

60+ Atk Salamence Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO, max Speed, rest in Sp.Atk.

:Snorlax: 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 80 HP / 144 Def Snorlax: 216-255 (44.9 - 53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery,
184+ Atk Snorlax Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 246-290 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed to KO in Sand) 12 Speed to outspeed every paralyzed Pokemon bar Deo-S, rest in Sp.Def.

:Steelix: 252+ SpA Moltres Heat Wave vs. 180 HP / 204 SpD Steelix in Sun: 282-332 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, rest in Attack.

:Suicune: 156 Speed is 2 above 252+ Speed Tyranitar, max HP, rest in Defense.

:Togetic: 252 SpA Jolteon Thunder vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Togetic: 265-312 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Togetic: 265-312 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery (I am aware it will die after Sandstorm chip, but you at least get to survive the turn and fire off something like an Encore.) The last move can be just about anything you want. Fire Blast hurts Metagross decently and allows you to click a move when taunted, Screens are good team support, Thunder Wave is great speed control, Yawn forces switches or inflicts Sleep, and Soft-Boiled gives Togetic more longevity.

:Tyranitar: Hit a Leftovers number in HP, max Sp.Atk, rest in Speed. You can choose to run Hidden Power Rock to do a ton to Zapdos and OHKO Moltres, Crunch slams Gengar, Hidden Power Grass hits Swampert really hard. Thunderbolt allows you to hit Water types when you are using Hidden Power Rock over Hidden Power Grass.

:Vaporeon: +2 252+ Atk Tyranitar Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Vaporeon: 318-375 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage, max Sp.Atk, rest in Defense.

Just like in Singles play, Vaporeon can eat a Timid Zapdos Thunderbolt and be guaranteed put into Salac Berry range. 224 Speed allows you to hit 222 Speed, 1 above 252 Speed Tyranitar to outspeed it before Salac Berry. This will also allow you to outspeed base 100 Speed Pokemon after your Salac Berry has been used. Then, max out Sp.Atk, put the rest in Defense.
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 317-374 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Zapdos: 252+ Atk Tyranitar Hidden Power Rock vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 297-350 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Mixed Zapdos runs a good amount of Attack to ensure that you do at least 50% to 48 HP/32 Defense Celebi, and hit Ludicolo very hard.

Hidden Power Ice and Grass are both fine options. If your team needs to hit Salamence/Grasses a bit better, use Hidden Power Ice. If you really have Swampert problems, use Hidden Power Grass.

Shoutout to xzern and zee for helping me with all of this! I'm sure some more of these will be added in the future.

 

[rulerq1]

As someone who is currently trying to beat the end game battle colosseums on Pokemon Col/XD the timing of this is so cool. Some great stuff here and I am having fun with the tier. I have been theorycrafting in Colosseum some weird tech like Growl/Rock Tomb spam Swampert so its nice to use them against humans even if I am only doing it with an Adv 200 frame of mind......

So I take it from the tier list that Gengar is the best special attacker in this format with Lati@s being banned?

 

[xzern]

doublecross (Charizard) @ Leftovers / Salac Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Protect

Charizard is good. I prefer him over moltres as my fire of choice because 1) i like charizard 2) better speed ensures that it beats/ties with mence and zapdos 3) blaze is better than you think. Moltres heat wave is negligible and does not hold a candle to zard's other boons in my opinion. Fast sub gives it a lot of staying power and durability, giving you more options to work with SUCH AS getting into blaze range, tanking an ally explosion while still being able to attack (three kills in one turn!) etc. Of course you could also use sub on moltres or houndoom.. im sure its good too.

Opponents need to be careful hitting a fresh zard with a strong move that wont kill, like non-stab coverage from deoxys or gengar, lest it roll into blaze range and ohko back (unless your opp is some sort of psychopath.) Blaze boosted zard, in his frenzy, can muscle through mons like deoxys, non-bulky zapdos, etc.

So I take it from the tier list that Gengar is the best special attacker in this format with Lati@s being banned?

Click to collapse...

yea. deoxys speed is similar in viability.

 

[SEA]

Dewgong is actually nuts. From giving a few people my Dewgong team to use as well as using it myself in R1 of the ADV DOU tour, the team itself went undefeated, Dewgong as a Pokemon almost had a 100% winrate, only not having one because there were two in the same game. Its support is so impactful in every game. Dewgong + a Sleeper like Breloom is pretty stupid (maybe looking into a Sleep Clause soon!), as the biggest drawback to those is often their low Speed (Breloom) or getting nuked by other attacks (every Sleeper). Dewgong doesn't only help Sleepers though, as Encoring setup Pokemon into their setup moves is unbelievably good (Icy Winding a TTar, then Encoring it the following turn, raw Encoring a Gyarados into Dragon Dance, or any of the various CM Pokemon). Icy Wind also allows for some of your slower Pokemon to gain a massive advantage: Moltres now outspeeds Omastar in Rain, Zapdos, most Deoxys-Speed, and many more Pokemon that greatly benefit from Icy Wind's speed control. The worst thing you can do is keep this thing alive. All it does is punish you for ever clicking Protect and enable its partner. Hit it with physical moves and it will be sure to fall.

Oh, and because I'm planning on making some more teams, here's the Dewgong team in question: https://pokepast.es/24461e046a066e99

mish mish

 

[nerd of now]

Don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this but I have been playing this format in the background for a bit and topped the ladder earlier today, which probably isn't that impressive considering that it's only 1282. Regardless, I'd like to share what I've been using if that's alright.

https://pokepast.es/0f6db826df883c1b

I decided to take the Houndoom Deoxys-S anti-lead a step further to account for more leads. Ended up going Choice Band Deoxys and a very offensive Houndoom with Fire Blast and HP Grass. Between the power of Deoxys's Banded attacks and Houndoom's coverage picking up where Deoxys's can't, they can OHKO a fairly decent number of leads in the meta, and those that it can't cover for typically don't do much to threaten them. Worst case I'm switching in something bulkier in the back for Houndoom. The other cool thing that I put on this team (that honestly might be suboptimal but is too much fun for me to care) is Swagger Gengar + Lum Metagross. It's similar to Choice Band Metagross but it can sacrifice the extra power to prevent burn or paralysis, and also runs max speed Jolly instead. Gengar originally only had enough speed investment to outspeed Jolly Metagross by 1 point, but getting outsped by opposing Salamence and Gyarados was a pain. Salamence and Ludicolo are really just there for extra coverage. Mixed mence is ripped straight from Singles but Brick Break provided enough extra coverage for it to be worth running it over Protect. Ludicolo needs Rain Dance to have a good matchup against sand, since the only Pokemon on the team that doesn't take sand chip is Metagross and Choice Band Deoxys's sand chip is permanent. I don't tend to miss Fake Out too much, since opponents seems to play as if Ludicolo has Fake Out, which gives me an opportunity to set up Rain Dance.

I don't know if I'll pursue keeping first on ladder because I'm starting to prioritize VGC again, but this is a very enjoyable format. The differences in mechanics from later Doubles formats has been a refreshing change of pace and I want to return to explore this format more if and when I get the chance to.

 

[SEA]

We are back after a year, and I've got a personal VR update to bump this thread!

Don't put too much stock in the letter rankings.

Not too much here, but since I last posted, the big changes are:

:rs/swampert:
I remembered to include it this time. Really solid and forces HP Grass on every team.

:rs/vaporeon:
Might be insane, just feels super solid every time I use it.

:rs/raikou:
Electrics are insanely threatening, and Raikou is the Electric that beats Electrics.

:rs/houndoom:
Fire STAB + really strong Crunch is sick. Heavily underrated this thing last time.

:rs/flygon:
If the Electrics run HP Grass, this guy gets WAY better. If they run HP Ice, this guy gets WAY worse. Doesn't really force Electrics to run HP Ice in the way Swampert does, so it just exists. They could also just have Salamence or Gengar, and you do next to nothing.

And here's a dump of some teams I built last year (not all of these are perfect)

PLEASE play this metagame it's so much fun and I love it

 

[zee]

I updated the sample teams!

I also updated my 2021 VR

Added Deo to S rank, I think its getting to a point where I have to think hard about dropping it from my teams and it can provide so much.

Houndoom / Raikou / Jirachi are new A tier additions. The first two are fast special attackers that are prone to overwhelm slow teams, Houndoom usually at lead and Raikou late game. +1 Raikou hurts. Jirachi has a great typing and CM making it a potent wincon and its array of moves gives it great customization. Go play this tier while you can!

 

[KyleCole]

Really enjoying this tier so far! Here’s my opinions on the VR. My biggest notable differences from the ones above are that I think deo is better than gengar overall and I think starmie is actually very strong and deserves ranking. Makes a solid switch in to deo + fire move, outspeeds gengar for the psychic, can run hydro/ice beam/tbolt/twave and is great into rain. ive actually found that I can click recover on it sometimes which is really cool.
I also don’t really see the appeal of pert… maybe I just am running more hp grass and ice beam than is needed.

S tier
:deoxys-speed:
A tier
:zapdos::metagross:
B tier
:moltres::houndoom::Salamence: :gengar::tyranitar::starmie::raikou::jirachi: :jolteon: :vaporeon:
C tier
:marowak::Hariyama::ludicolo::kingdra: :suicune: :blissey: :gyarados: :swampert: :breloom: :milotic::dewgong: :exeggutor:
D tier
:omastar::jumpluff: :dusclops: :snorlax: :aerodactyl: :alakazam::politoed::smeargle: :arcanine: :flygon: :Claydol: :mr_mime: :clefable: :ninjask:

Everything else Im probably going to avoid, although I’m sure I’ve forgotten someone. Also, latias might be too good lol.

 

[latios777]

I'm playing this tier using all the samples and other teams that I made and I think about some mons:



Entei @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 84 Atk / 240 SpA / 4 SpD / 180 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Solar Beam
- Protect

Leftovers and Charcoal can be used (there aren't better items probably...). When I see a Moltres with Hp fighting in the samples with enough evs to OHKO 0 bulk tyranitar with helping hand I think about using Entei. Is not better but has advantages over Moltres like not being electric weak (but earthquake weak) and having Solar Beam (in this generation Moltres can't learn it). Of course, this thing need sun support to be worth. If you aren't runing Helping hand support don't need 84 evs in atk, can be placed in other stats.


Gorebyss @ Mystic Water / Lum berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance / Hidden Power Grass / Surf
- Protect

If you have a rain with Ludicolo, Kingdra, Raikou and Metagross....you can put Omastar but Gorebyss avoid the triple ground weakness and is only slightly bad in stats.


Dragonite @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Mild Nature
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Earthquake

Not a great set, but Thunder and Ice beam + better special bulk are reasons to use over Salamence in rain teams...and still isn't enough to justify using it over mence most of the time. I use Earthquake because Raikou is annoying for rain teams but this slot is flexible. Quiet nature is an option, but don't outpace slow Metagross and tht's not good. Modest probably better if you dislike losing bulk.

Also I see blissey useful to fight rain and maybe sun but I don't test so no idea about this and don't seem really splashable. Maybe worth try with Sofboiled, thunder wave, ice beam and filler move.

Outdated Samples

:rs/jolteon::rs/moltres::rs/metagross::rs/blaziken::rs/aerodactyl::rs/exeggutor: - xzern's sun

Click to collapse...

This team has wrong link. Also, fun fact but Shedinja 6-0 this rain team (is very bad in this format specially if the oponent brings Tyranitar but nothing touches Shed with your sets).


About the items, don't like Leftovers in frail mons, in most battles are doing nothing. I prefer lum berry because against teams with Thunder wave spam (and sleep power/spore with no sleep clause) seem the better item. Leftovers help against sandstorm damage but in frail mons....just I see this item situational. Lum berry isn't always useful but can save you against status.

 

[KyleCole]

Just put up a nice team analysis of the squad I'm sitting at rank 1 with. I also give some of my thoughts on the meta/lead metagame. Hope you like it!

 

[SEA]

KyleCole and I talked for about an hour and half about our thoughts on this tier, and the best Pokemon in it!

(there are no visuals, feel free to listen to this in the background as you do something else like you would with a podcast)