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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Finally the bear has vanished. I wanna talk about the mons that have either gotten better or worse after Urshifu’s departure.
Winners:
Ferro and Tran no longer have to deal with the burden of being threatened out by Urshifu every time it comes in and stares down at them. Melmetal not only lost a check but it also lost competition as a breaker. I could expect Band Melmetal to pick up more usage. Drill has one less check to it’s name letting it feel more comfortable with setting up SD.
All four of these no longer have to worry about being put into 50/50s with the best offensive threat in the tier. Plus having one less dark type gives them more room to spam ghost moves, most notably the op horse.
The Bro twins may have lost a common partner, but it also means that we have less mons to OHKO them at full which gives them more chances to spam Future Sight and pivot out. Glowking is even harder to deal with now that it has one less mon to threaten it out. Lele now lost a check and competition for breaker. Latios no longer has to play 50/50s with Urshifu which gives it one less check. Reuniclus was once easy to just check with Urshifu. Now those times are over and Reuniclus is ready to reign supreme. (At least once Spectrier leaves.)
Blissey and Ttar no longer have to worry about giving Urshifu opportunities to come in and f shit up, this also means they are less of a momentum sap which makes the former two better vs Spectrier outside of a vaccum. Pert just likes having one less mon that can heavily pressure it or outright OHKO it letting it do it’s job easier.
Daunt appreciates having not only lost a check to it but also lost heavy competition. Same goes for Kart, Rapid Strike Shifu, Goon who not only can break but check Spectrier, Gapdos, and even Terrakion. Urshifu’s ban means you don’t need two slots to safely switch into it, which also means these breakers have more of a chance in being splashed on teams.
Kyurem always was forced out by Urshifu. However now Kyurem has more room to freely spam Freeze Dry, coverage, and break. Corviknight wasn’t as splashable with Urshifu around since it’s competition were able to deal with Shifu whether it’s Torn’s high speed and Regen, Zapdos Hurricane and Static, or Molt’s Flame Body. Now that it’s gone Corv will be able to be splashed on more teams.
Losers
These mons were able to pivot into Shifu a few times and then switch into something like Clefable. It hinders their ability as physical walls, but only slightly. It also means they can experience with more SpD spreads.
These mons were able to pivot into Urshifu once and punish it one way or another. With the bear being gone they get hindered but slightly like Pex and Tang. However Mandi was hit the hardest out of the birds and unfortunately due to not being a reliable Spectrier check like it’s supposed to, facing competition with Hydreigon, and now Shifu leaving means that it will only continue falling down in the metagame. It does mean however that Zapdos and Moltres can run Pressure again making them more effective Defoggers.
These mons got hindered slightly in defensive utility but they haven’t changed much in viability (Except G-Weezing). Fini can run more SpD, and Magearna has one less breaker to face competition with.
Urshifu leaving hits these two the harder than Future Sight. Buzzwole still can check SD Lando, Chomp, Rilla, and Goon so it still has a place but it’ll drop significantly in usage. As for Kommo-o, just use Garchomp.
Mixed
Clef lost a bit of splashability with Urshifu gone but it means that Clef is free to run more sets. SpD, Mixed Defensive, Wishport, maybe even LO 3 attacks from early Gen 8 and USUM.
These two were able to punish Urshifu one way or another whether it’s RH/Rough Skin, or Mixed Chomp’s Draco. However now their Defensive have less physical breakers to worry about and it also means they’re SD sets have less competition.
On one hand it appreciates having one less check to it’s name. On the other it lost one of it’s best partners. However it’s still a great mon that will continue to break shit.
Overall the ban benefited a whole lot of the metagame. The one’s that were effected negatively are only effected slightly. (Except Buzzwole, G-Weezing, Mandibuzz r.i.p) It says alot on how much of an unhealthy presence Urshifu. We still have a long way to go with Spectrier, Ace, and Mag in the tier but it’s one step to a healthier metagame.
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So what r everyone's thoughts on Rshifu?
Btw rip every shifu check.buzzwole gonna drop while I'm surprised people r expecting kommo to get better by shifu ban when nothing about shifu ban favours kommo rise at all... Kommo was one of the best shifu switch ins next to buzz while those 2 didn't even shared the same role. So if anything is happening to kommo, its getting worse. Clefable is pretty mixed and explained better by my man 658greninja(our opinions r almost always same and this time is no exception).
Btw rip every shifu check.buzzwole gonna drop while I'm surprised people r expecting kommo to get better by shifu ban when nothing about shifu ban favours kommo rise at all... Kommo was one of the best shifu switch ins next to buzz while those 2 didn't even shared the same role. So if anything is happening to kommo, its getting worse. Clefable is pretty mixed and explained better by my man 658greninja(our opinions r almost always same and this time is no exception).
Great post overall, but I am not sure whether Kommo is going to be worse than it was now and that it is outclassed by Ace. Kommo is a specially defensive rocker or salac berry sweeper, while cinder is a pivot? Sorry if I am being stupid, but it feels like they are quite a bit different and don't fulfill the same role in a team. Apart from that I can see it being better now that its main fighting type competition is gone.
Sure kommo is different in role from cinderace, but it isn't really used as a special wall but rather physical wall as almost every viable special atcker in ou tier demolishes kommo easily.The reason why it might get worse now is bcoz its only viable set was mostly popular as an urshifu check alternative to buzzwole that is not that trades recovery for more offensive presence. And now almost every mon that benefits from shifu ban is even scarier for kommo.kommo now has alot less reason to be run nowadays.
My bad. I meant to say Garchomp, not Cinderace. Chomp outclasses Kommo-o by being a rocker that also beats most of the same things as Kommo-o except it has rough skin to punish U-Turn/Flip Turn, has more of an offensive presence, and can punish the top defoggers with either Stone Edge or Fire Blast for Corv/Skarm. Kommo-o was good in pre-DLC OU cause the top defoggers were Corv and Mandi which Kommo-o can deal with really well with the Iron Defense Body Press set. Now that most defoggers can punish Kommo-o, especially since Corv runs BB more, it has a harder time keeping rocks on the field. Also we have far more consistent rockers in the tier than before like Landorus, Clef, Tran, Nidoking, and Hippo. The Sub-BD set has 4MSS and is easy to see coming due to the fact it’s only ever seen on HO. Sorry for the confusion
658Greninja
you forgot about aegislash for the winners.
It dropped off of usage significantly because urshifu negated kings shield, and just one hit ko's it.
Just saying.
you forgot about aegislash for the winners.
It dropped off of usage significantly because urshifu negated kings shield, and just one hit ko's it.
Just saying.
With the ban of Urshifu-S, I believe that a certain defensive core, already fairly solid in this meta and quite good in NatDex, will likely rise to become the top core in the metagame.
+
Blissbro
Blissbro is a fantastic defensive core that is capable of stonewalling most every threat in the metagame. It always required an Urshifu check on the side because otherwise Banded Wicked Blow wipes both of them away. However, as aforementioned, this ban heavily improves this core as no longer is it blitzed through by the #1 offensive threat. While still threatened somewhat by Pokémon such as Bisharp and Tapu Lele that benefit from this ban, no longer is such a central opponent as Urshifu-S able to break this core.
This core possesses dual momentum with Teleport, access to multiple ways to spread status, Stealth Rock if needed, cleric support, Future Sight, and of course, fantastic defensive synergy. It will likely form the backbone of many teams.
Partners
Cinderace
Cinderace loves everything this core offers, especially Future Sight and Teleport, to aid it in its capacities. It also offensively checks aforementioned Pokémon such as Lele and Bisharp, ensuring the core is preserved.
Corviknight
Corviknight appreciated the ability BlissBro offers to handle its counterplay, and in exchange offers Defog support and the ability to handle the offensive threats that threaten Blissey and Slowbro.
Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn is able to set hazards and provide great defensive synergy with the core. Additionally, Ferrothorn offers Knock Off and other various utility options that can only bolster the effectiveness of this core.
Many other solid Pokémon in the metagame benefit from this incredible core, and I believe that it will be incredibly prominent in the metagame from here on out. That’s all I had to say.
+Blissbro
Blissbro is a fantastic defensive core that is capable of stonewalling most every threat in the metagame. It always required an Urshifu check on the side because otherwise Banded Wicked Blow wipes both of them away. However, as aforementioned, this ban heavily improves this core as no longer is it blitzed through by the #1 offensive threat. While still threatened somewhat by Pokémon such as Bisharp and Tapu Lele that benefit from this ban, no longer is such a central opponent as Urshifu-S able to break this core.
This core possesses dual momentum with Teleport, access to multiple ways to spread status, Stealth Rock if needed, cleric support, Future Sight, and of course, fantastic defensive synergy. It will likely form the backbone of many teams.
Partners
Cinderace
Cinderace loves everything this core offers, especially Future Sight and Teleport, to aid it in its capacities. It also offensively checks aforementioned Pokémon such as Lele and Bisharp, ensuring the core is preserved.
Corviknight
Corviknight appreciated the ability BlissBro offers to handle its counterplay, and in exchange offers Defog support and the ability to handle the offensive threats that threaten Blissey and Slowbro.
Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn is able to set hazards and provide great defensive synergy with the core. Additionally, Ferrothorn offers Knock Off and other various utility options that can only bolster the effectiveness of this core.
Many other solid Pokémon in the metagame benefit from this incredible core, and I believe that it will be incredibly prominent in the metagame from here on out. That’s all I had to say.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
this alone has me worried about if its broken or not, with bisharp and lele being the only real threats as you mentioned, doesnt it almost sound centralizing?
"Pack these else blissbro will wall your ass"
Could be, too early to say. There are definitely more mons that can break this combo, but whether they will rise to the forefront of the meta or not remains to be seen. Of course, some already are, like Rillaboom, Draining Kiss/LO Focus Blast Magearna, Taunt CM Fini, and the rarer Taunt Koko. Other mons like Trick Latios, Torn-T, Volcarona, Specs Mag, and Heatran annoy this core too. Not to mention many of the breakers that are expected to get better after the Urshifu ban, like Aegislash, SubRoost Kyurem, Crawdaunt, and Obstagoon. Blissbro also loses to Sand Dracozolt, which is projected to get better too since Clef doesn't need to be on every sand team.
I also want to add to the fact that just because X core is broken on X metagame that doesn't mean its gonna be busted on other metagames
Heal Bell Roost DD Dragonite can set up on both of them pretty easily too
WHY MAGERNA IS BROKEN
Defensive
While playing in OU I noticed something, the fact that magerna with the store-kiss set it was able to set on Ferrothorn. With leftorvers magerna is able to sustain damage from ferrothorn and then retaliate with stored power.
(With 1 Shift gear and Calm mind)
+1 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 68-80 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
(With 2 Shift gears and Calm Minds.)
+2 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 164-194 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So with enough setup magerna is able to setup on ferrothorn even with leech seed thanks to its leftovers recovery and the fact ferrothron is used to switch in or after mageerna gets a ko which then your baccically about to get swept.
Fire Types
Lets see the best check to magerna with this set, fire types. They completly destroy magerna.
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 320-380 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 429-507 (117.8 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So that seems a lot, but magerna has a great teamate to be able to check All of these. Garchomp.
Heatran
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 93-110 (26 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 811-957 (210.1 - 247.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 259-306 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 801-946 (257.5 - 304.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cinderace
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace: 269-317 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO - Without its fire type
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 93-111 (26 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blacephalon
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 94-111 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 704-834 (285 - 337.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blaziken
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 569-671 (189 - 222.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 251-296 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So besides blaziken with its close combat, and volcarona with its bug buzz, garchomp is a solid check to these pokemon
Ground Pokemon
My boys. But anyways there typing they are able to threaten magerna, hippowdown is able to check her due to the fact that it can phase it.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 208-247 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 221-265 (73.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 314-372 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 377-447 (125.2 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But even with all of these Rillaboom and its grassy terrain has the ability to kill almost all of them.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking in Grassy Terrain: 295-348 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 171-202 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert in Grassy Terrain: 1036-1224 (256.4 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 247-292 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon in Grassy Terrain: 524-618 (124.7 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So besides lando-t with intimidate which can't switch into wood hammer, rillaboom checks all of these.
Steel Types
So besides Hetran and Exadrill , (Which I've covered), other steel types can stall it out right?
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 112-131 (28 - 32.7%) -- 82.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 333-391 (128.5 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah so with the defensive set, besides Kartana Magearna loses easily. But magerna is known with its versatility, and that is what it has.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But Magerna is almost unstoppable with grassy terrain when it comes with these, considering that rillaboom already checks most of these.
Blissey
So you might be wondering what about the blobs you know the most hated pokemon in history, but magerna has a vital immunity to toxic so lets see how it does.
(With 1 Shift gear and Calm mind)
+1 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 151-178 (21.1 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 94-112 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO (23.5 - 27.9% recovered)
So it seems like magerna is screwed against this blob until you realize that magerna recovers enough health to outdo the seismic toss damage with draning kiss and leftovers, and the additive health that it will get allows magerna to setup with careful strategy.
Some Other Mons.
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 294-346 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 446-528 (106.6 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 439-523 (138.4 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 123-146 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So in conclusion Magearna's "checks" can be ko'd and Magearna will just sweep with no recource.
Defensive
While playing in OU I noticed something, the fact that magerna with the store-kiss set it was able to set on Ferrothorn. With leftorvers magerna is able to sustain damage from ferrothorn and then retaliate with stored power.
(With 1 Shift gear and Calm mind)
+1 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 68-80 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
(With 2 Shift gears and Calm Minds.)
+2 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 164-194 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So with enough setup magerna is able to setup on ferrothorn even with leech seed thanks to its leftovers recovery and the fact ferrothron is used to switch in or after mageerna gets a ko which then your baccically about to get swept.
Fire Types
Lets see the best check to magerna with this set, fire types. They completly destroy magerna.
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 320-380 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 429-507 (117.8 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So that seems a lot, but magerna has a great teamate to be able to check All of these. Garchomp.
Heatran
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 93-110 (26 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 811-957 (210.1 - 247.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 259-306 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 801-946 (257.5 - 304.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cinderace
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace: 269-317 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO - Without its fire type
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 93-111 (26 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blacephalon
252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 94-111 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 704-834 (285 - 337.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blaziken
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 569-671 (189 - 222.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 251-296 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So besides blaziken with its close combat, and volcarona with its bug buzz, garchomp is a solid check to these pokemon
Ground Pokemon
My boys. But anyways there typing they are able to threaten magerna, hippowdown is able to check her due to the fact that it can phase it.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 208-247 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 221-265 (73.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 314-372 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 377-447 (125.2 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But even with all of these Rillaboom and its grassy terrain has the ability to kill almost all of them.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking in Grassy Terrain: 295-348 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 171-202 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert in Grassy Terrain: 1036-1224 (256.4 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 247-292 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon in Grassy Terrain: 524-618 (124.7 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So besides lando-t with intimidate which can't switch into wood hammer, rillaboom checks all of these.
Steel Types
So besides Hetran and Exadrill , (Which I've covered), other steel types can stall it out right?
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 112-131 (28 - 32.7%) -- 82.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 333-391 (128.5 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah so with the defensive set, besides Kartana Magearna loses easily. But magerna is known with its versatility, and that is what it has.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But Magerna is almost unstoppable with grassy terrain when it comes with these, considering that rillaboom already checks most of these.
Blissey
So you might be wondering what about the blobs you know the most hated pokemon in history, but magerna has a vital immunity to toxic so lets see how it does.
(With 1 Shift gear and Calm mind)
+1 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 151-178 (21.1 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 94-112 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO (23.5 - 27.9% recovered)
So it seems like magerna is screwed against this blob until you realize that magerna recovers enough health to outdo the seismic toss damage with draning kiss and leftovers, and the additive health that it will get allows magerna to setup with careful strategy.
Some Other Mons.
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 294-346 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 446-528 (106.6 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 439-523 (138.4 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 123-146 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So in conclusion Magearna's "checks" can be ko'd and Magearna will just sweep with no recource.
The new best offensive core; same as the old best offensive core. https://pokepast.es/8c64e51b337de39a
With urshifu gone it's easy to think things will converge to the idyllic balance fantasy, but if anything I believe it will become hyper offense paradise with cinderace running rampant on all these supposed balance cores. Take this specific set:
Cinderace @ Life Orb
Ability: Libero
EVs: 152 Atk / 104 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Pyro Ball
- Electro Ball
- Work Up
Blissey, bro, ferro -- ohkoed
Grounds -- deads to +1 hjk
Pex -- dies to +1 electro ball
Pelipper -- gone
Heatran -- gone
This is nightmare for balance to handle, and there's really no downside to running it. Rillaboom deals with anything faster, while magearna is the OP win con to cleanup vs dragons after cinderace and monke cleanup the steels. The only real threat is cinderace itself (surprise!). I suspect the era of the bunny to continue.
Something else...
Lead Cloyster
Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Spikes
Cloyster is a very effective anti lead. Vs common ice-weak leads you get a free smash and then the option of either killing stuff if they choose to set, or a guarantee spin vs anything that isn't voltswitch+sand. I recommend if you're tired of lando going SD boom or getting rocks for free.
I've been running these four together with garchomp+lucha and it's been easy clicking.
Other sleepers:
- one attack, Dragon dance kyurem
- Fat boots koko
- Offensive buzzwole
- Sub DD dragapult
- StoredKiss Klefki
- SD kommo o
So apparently many people are listing what they think will rise or drop in viability, so Ig I might as well do it too
What I think will rise in viability with the Urshifu ban:
Clefable
While, yes, this was considered the most splashable Urshifu check, and rightfully so, Clefable doesn't dislike one of the things it was one of the best checks to leaving as much as it appreciates being able to run more variety in its sets. WishPort had basically disappeared because of how Urshifu bypassed Protect, thus making Clef necessitate Soft-Boiled, but now it is free to run that. Another thing is that now it doesn't need to run max defense, being able to run some Special Defense EVs, although I still think Bold Clef will be the standard to check threats like Garchomp and Hawlucha
BlissBro (and also Corviknight)
Pretty much everything about BlissBro being amazing is already detailed on the above post by BitBitio. I'd just like to add that Corviknight is a fantastic check to most things that threaten this core, such as Rillaboom, Kartana, Bisharp and Tapu Lele, as well as not being overly scared of Knock Off from the former 3.
Fighting Types
Now that Urshifu is gone, fighting types that were previously outclassed by its breaking capabilities like the previously OU Terrakion and Conkeldurr, especially due to the only remaining FuturePort abuser being pretty much Cinderace. Don't think there's much more to say besides them seemingly being pretty solid against the rest of the meta.
Offensive Dark Types:
I dare say offensive dark types are the ones that benefit the most from this ban. Not only is Urshifu, their biggest competition, gone but they also lose an excellent revenge killer, as its fighting stab plowed through them and besides Crawdaunt which could Aqua Jet for a bit of damage they could do little back. Bisharp once again manages to make great use of Knock Off and Sucker Punch, as well as being an excellent defiant user. Crawdaunt does Crawdaunt things, with +2 Adaptability Knock Off and Crabhammer being as scary to switch into as ever. Obstagoon is not only a great spectrier check and a really powerful wallbreaker, it also can really annoy the opponent with tricking its Flame Orb to the opponent by using Switcheroo
The Horse
Spectrier LOVES Urshifu being gone, as the bear was almost always the best those teams could do to check it, with its replacements being frailer than it. It despises Obstagoon probably getting better but I think the horse will still be great nonetheless.
Physical Grass and Electric Types 
Now, as I said, I really think BlissBro will rise to a very worrying level of incredible, and thus, some things will rise to be able to break through it, such as the afromentioned offensive Dark Types, as well as Pokémon like Rillaboom, Kartana and Dracozolt (Zera too but I'm not too sure on this one, as it still suffers from the many ground types in the tier)
What I think will drop in viability with the Urshifu ban:
The Buffed Bug
Sadly, this is probably the end to Buzzwole's OU viability, as Urshifu was pretty much the only reason it was still used. Not much needed to be said about this one.
Moltres
Moltres has been on decline since the Pheromosa ban, and unfortunately this does not help it at all. While our dear fire chicken was yet another victim of the terrifying Wicked Blow, it could take Close Combats and potentially punish Urshifu with a burn.
Mandibuzz
Again, Mandi was already not considered that good by many (myself included) and now perhaps one of its biggest niches in checking Urshifu is gone. Sure, it died to Banded Close Combat, but it could switch into a Wicked Blow and that is more than most mons can claim to do.
What I don't think will rise in viability with the Urshifu ban but other people seem to think so:
Psychic Types
Some people seem to think that psychic types will rise again without having to fear Urshifu Wicked Blowing them to death, but I still think the rise of more offensive Dark Types as well as the popularity of Spectrier will cause them to not reach the level of viability they could otherwise.
Ghost Types
All of these suffer from the same problem: Spectrier. While Urshifu being gone is amazing news for them, so is it for Spectrier, which continues to do absurd feats and outclass most ghost types.
The "Walled by Bulky Waters" Fighting Types
Now, while Blaziken and especially Urshifu-RS, which couldn't be used in the same team as its dark type brother, have lost fighting type competition, I still believe they suffer from the same problems they did in the past; being walled by Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini is terrible for both, and I don't believe having to not fight for Urshifu-SS for a spot on a team will fix that.
The ones I'm mixed on whether will rise or fall in viability with the Urshifu ban:
Aegislash
Now, as I said earlier, Spectrier being around really hurts other ghost types, but I feel like Aegislash has enough characteristics to shine in this metagame, even with Spectrier being present. It can go on a more defensive approach with Sub Toxic sets, Urshifu being gone means King's Shield is pretty good once again, it's the only one out of the ghost types expected to rise to prominence that can run physical or mixed sets, as well as being the only one with priority. I'm torn on this one, but I'm leaning towards believing it will rise even with Spectrier dominating.
Zapdos-G
While most fighting types are either very obvious whether they can shine in the meta or not, G-Zapdos is one I'm not sure about. It's really strong, and fighting types are always appreciated, especially with FuturePort, but getting walled by Zapdos doesn't do it any favors, especially as a Defiant mon. I don't believe it will rise in viability but it may happen.
What I think will rise in viability with the Urshifu ban:
Clefable
While, yes, this was considered the most splashable Urshifu check, and rightfully so, Clefable doesn't dislike one of the things it was one of the best checks to leaving as much as it appreciates being able to run more variety in its sets. WishPort had basically disappeared because of how Urshifu bypassed Protect, thus making Clef necessitate Soft-Boiled, but now it is free to run that. Another thing is that now it doesn't need to run max defense, being able to run some Special Defense EVs, although I still think Bold Clef will be the standard to check threats like Garchomp and Hawlucha
BlissBro (and also Corviknight)
Pretty much everything about BlissBro being amazing is already detailed on the above post by BitBitio. I'd just like to add that Corviknight is a fantastic check to most things that threaten this core, such as Rillaboom, Kartana, Bisharp and Tapu Lele, as well as not being overly scared of Knock Off from the former 3.
Fighting Types
Now that Urshifu is gone, fighting types that were previously outclassed by its breaking capabilities like the previously OU Terrakion and Conkeldurr, especially due to the only remaining FuturePort abuser being pretty much Cinderace. Don't think there's much more to say besides them seemingly being pretty solid against the rest of the meta.
Offensive Dark Types:
I dare say offensive dark types are the ones that benefit the most from this ban. Not only is Urshifu, their biggest competition, gone but they also lose an excellent revenge killer, as its fighting stab plowed through them and besides Crawdaunt which could Aqua Jet for a bit of damage they could do little back. Bisharp once again manages to make great use of Knock Off and Sucker Punch, as well as being an excellent defiant user. Crawdaunt does Crawdaunt things, with +2 Adaptability Knock Off and Crabhammer being as scary to switch into as ever. Obstagoon is not only a great spectrier check and a really powerful wallbreaker, it also can really annoy the opponent with tricking its Flame Orb to the opponent by using Switcheroo
The Horse
Spectrier LOVES Urshifu being gone, as the bear was almost always the best those teams could do to check it, with its replacements being frailer than it. It despises Obstagoon probably getting better but I think the horse will still be great nonetheless.
Physical Grass and Electric Types
Now, as I said, I really think BlissBro will rise to a very worrying level of incredible, and thus, some things will rise to be able to break through it, such as the afromentioned offensive Dark Types, as well as Pokémon like Rillaboom, Kartana and Dracozolt (Zera too but I'm not too sure on this one, as it still suffers from the many ground types in the tier)
What I think will drop in viability with the Urshifu ban:
The Buffed Bug
Sadly, this is probably the end to Buzzwole's OU viability, as Urshifu was pretty much the only reason it was still used. Not much needed to be said about this one.
Moltres
Moltres has been on decline since the Pheromosa ban, and unfortunately this does not help it at all. While our dear fire chicken was yet another victim of the terrifying Wicked Blow, it could take Close Combats and potentially punish Urshifu with a burn.
Mandibuzz
Again, Mandi was already not considered that good by many (myself included) and now perhaps one of its biggest niches in checking Urshifu is gone. Sure, it died to Banded Close Combat, but it could switch into a Wicked Blow and that is more than most mons can claim to do.
What I don't think will rise in viability with the Urshifu ban but other people seem to think so:
Psychic Types
Some people seem to think that psychic types will rise again without having to fear Urshifu Wicked Blowing them to death, but I still think the rise of more offensive Dark Types as well as the popularity of Spectrier will cause them to not reach the level of viability they could otherwise.
Ghost Types
All of these suffer from the same problem: Spectrier. While Urshifu being gone is amazing news for them, so is it for Spectrier, which continues to do absurd feats and outclass most ghost types.
The "Walled by Bulky Waters" Fighting Types
Now, while Blaziken and especially Urshifu-RS, which couldn't be used in the same team as its dark type brother, have lost fighting type competition, I still believe they suffer from the same problems they did in the past; being walled by Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini is terrible for both, and I don't believe having to not fight for Urshifu-SS for a spot on a team will fix that.
The ones I'm mixed on whether will rise or fall in viability with the Urshifu ban:
Aegislash
Now, as I said earlier, Spectrier being around really hurts other ghost types, but I feel like Aegislash has enough characteristics to shine in this metagame, even with Spectrier being present. It can go on a more defensive approach with Sub Toxic sets, Urshifu being gone means King's Shield is pretty good once again, it's the only one out of the ghost types expected to rise to prominence that can run physical or mixed sets, as well as being the only one with priority. I'm torn on this one, but I'm leaning towards believing it will rise even with Spectrier dominating.
Zapdos-G
While most fighting types are either very obvious whether they can shine in the meta or not, G-Zapdos is one I'm not sure about. It's really strong, and fighting types are always appreciated, especially with FuturePort, but getting walled by Zapdos doesn't do it any favors, especially as a Defiant mon. I don't believe it will rise in viability but it may happen.
If BlissBro does end up defining the post-Shifu meta, physical Zeraora might make a comeback as it runs through the four mon wall of Blissey, Slowbro, Corviknight and Ferrothorn with Plasma Fists and CC. In regards to Magearna, Stored Power sets are becoming prominent enough that it might merit a suspect test at some point the future.
Gastrodon is one of my favorite pokemon of all times to use in OU, and when the discussion was happening, I was really happy. However, I didn't want to talk about Gastrodon until the shifu voting happened because personally I feel Gastrodon had no place in the shifu meta, as much as that pains me. But now that Urshifu is gone, Gastrodon gets way better and here's why:- One of the reasons why shifu was broken is how restrictive he was in teambuilding, you had to dedicate a spot for him no matter what. Couple that with Sepctrier/Cinderace/Magearna in the tier and the fact that Gastrodon doesn't check any of them super reliably meant that Gastrodon just had too much competition for a team slot.
- Although Gastrodon has many pros to running him, one of the biggest downsides is his huge momentum sap, and in the shifu meta where you had to be proactive even as a defensive team meant Gastrodon's weakness was just amplified.
- One of Gastrodon's sets (and my opinion, most fun set by far) was the Curse set. It was surprisingly good in gen 6 and 7 despite the abundance of toxic/grass spam. It's such a good options for slower teams looking for an occasional wincon, as you'd be surprised how many teams get flat out swept by Curse Gastro once their Ferrothorn or Rillaboom go down. However, Urshifu-S being in the tier means that Curse set is even harder to pull off, as Wicked Blow will go through whatever +defense you had, and people are much better at preserving their Urshifu than their Ferrothorn.
And now, on why gastro is good:
- Basically, Gastrodon has a variety of options in the current meta. I saw people debating which was better, Storm Drain or Sticky Hold, but to honest, they are both really good abilities that have their viability. It's like Clefable, both Magic Guard and Unaware are phenomenal and you can use either one for your own needs. Gastrodon is the same, you want to have a good matchup vs. rain? Run physDef gastrodon with Storm Drian. You want to have a constant switch-in to Toxapex and Clefable, or a permanent counter to trick users such as Clefable, Fini, and Latios?? Run SpD gastro with Sticky Hold.
- It can check multiple things depending on its set. You can check Cinderace, Barraskewda, and Melmetal with a PhysDef version, or go SpD and check Nidoking, Latios, Slowking-galar, special Dragapult, or any Magearna that's not specs. And no matter what the set is, you will still check Heatran or any Tapu koko w/o grass knot.
- Gastrodon is a fantastic role compression mon. It can provide an extra check to certain mons your team is weak to, while also being able to sponge electric types/volt switch, water spam/scald, and/or be a knock off/trick sponge. For example, PhysDef Gastrodon can actually be quite a good check to Cinderace and Melmetal, but obviously something like Slowbro or PhysDef Hippo can do that better, HOWEVER Gastrodon can check those pokemon, but ALSO have his own aforementioned niches.
- Gastrodon is decently versatile, you can run the regular toxic/scald/eq, but you can also run sticky hold w/ Epower since you might get burned more often. Or maybe run Ice Beam for Garchomp or some extra damage on Dragapult. You can run Yawn/Clear Smog if you want Gastrodon to deter setting up. And there's always the good old Curse set.
- Finally, one of the biggest reasons why Gastrodon is good, is not Gastrodon himself, but the idea of gastrodon. It's the same thing why Landorus-T is so good. They have 2 immunities to 2 common offensive types. This means that simply because Gastrodon is in the back, every time Swampert or Barraskewda click Flip Turn, or every time Koko or Magearna click Volt Switch, it becomes a mind game. And it's not only about momentum moves, it's also about strong moves like Urshifu-r's Surging Strikes, or Specs Regieleki's Thunderbolt.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I want to quickly talk about the semi-stall team I used to get reqs for the Urshifu suspect and how it could be adapted now that Urshifu has been banned:
I didn't build this team (ABR did), so I don't want to post the full import, but the team itself is pretty straightforward. I went 32-2 with it to get voting reqs, and I found it to be extremely reliable. This team included Urshifu, partially as a check to opposing Urshifu when coupled with Rocky Helmet Pex as a pivot, but also as an easy way to punch holes in the opposing team, especially after you've weakened some key Pokemon down a little. I feel like the defensive backbone of Blissey, Corviknight, Galarian Slowking, and Pex is sturdy and dependable enough to stand up to most offensive threats, and Ditto is insurance against anything that may set-up and break through, but I was trying to come up with an option to quickly plug in and replace Urshifu. I started to think more about Cinderace, and I feel like the following Cinderace set could work very nicely as the sole breaker on semi-stall teams:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick / Low Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
Although Cinderace's damage output may not always seem to be as overtly oppressive as Urshifu's was, I feel like in a lot of ways Cinderace is a more threatening breaker. I've personally thought for a while that Cinderace was more difficult to switch into and overall better than Urshifu, but that's just my opinion. However, it's indisputable that Cinderace is much more versatile than Urshifu, and I think that running Cinderace on a semi-stall team in particular helps capitalize on its offensive potential, for a couple of reasons. First, I think that Cinderace can afford to be Adamant over Jolly more on semi-stall teams because you have defensive answers, like Corviknight and Pex, to things like Kartana that out-speed Adamant Cinderace. Even if something like an SD Kart does punch a hole in your team, Ditto will become extremely threatening back. The damage boost from Cinderace being Adamant is substantial, as it does things like makes it likely that Pyro Ball 2HKOs Zapdos (Jolly Pyro Ball only has a 1.2% chance to 2HKO 220 Def Timid Zapdos, but when Adamant, that rises all the way to 74.2%). It would be fine to remain Jolly as well for added protection against some faster threats, but Jolly Urshifu only reached 322 Speed anyway (15 points slower than Adamant Cinderace), and I didn't really come across anything that either Urshifu or Ditto couldn't revenge kill/force out. The second thing that Cinderace appreciates about being on a semi-stall team is that I feel like having a plethora of sturdy defensive options to switch to makes it easier to forgo U-turn. I think that Pyro Ball, HJK/Low Kick, Gunk Shot, and Sucker Punch gives Cinderace the best coverage (and Sucker Punch offers very valuable utility), but Cinderace usually wants U-turn for momentum and positioning as well. Stall/semi-stall teams usually aren't as worried about maintaining momentum and have good enough defensive answers to just switch out if they're in a bad spot. Obviously even stall teams don't like being forced to switch out, but I'm saying that they usually are better equipped to do so than other, more offensively-oriented teams. Now Cinderace can't universally break through as many Pokemon as Urshifu could with Wicked Blow, and this could be annoying and force you to play more drawn-out games, but things that are able to repeatedly come in on any of those 4 attacks from Cinderace (like Slowbro, Toxapex, or Hippowdon) aren't really able to do much back to the rest of the stall side of your team. The team I used also ran Future Sight on Galarian Slowking, and while it isn't as useful as Slowbro or Slowking to set up breakers with a Future Sight, since Galarian Slowking can't learn Teleport, it can make it more difficult for things like Pex or Hippo to check Cinderace at times. Finally, having defensive Pokemon that can still capture momentum, like Blissey with Teleport and Corviknight with a very slow U-turn (I talked about this before in this post, but ABR used minimum Speed on Corviknight, which was useful for a few reasons), really helps Cinderace get on the field and fire off big attacks.
I don't really feel like playing anymore now, and I'm planning on finally taking that long break that I've always been telling myself I would, so I haven't tested the team with Cinderace subbed in for Urshifu, but I think that it should be fine. I don't feel like the removal of Urshifu will change too much, at least for a semi-stall team like this - the defensive backbone should still be very solid (Bulk Up/4 attacks LO Urshifu actually was a fairly big threat if they had their own Urshifu answer to handle my Ditto after a sac), but it was nice to be able to go Rocky Helmet Pex to scout/chip opposing Urshifu and then go pretty freely to my own Urshifu on Wicked Blow as a way to abuse CB Urshifu. Cinderace is still going to be extremely threatening and should be able to fill a similar breaker role that Urshifu did, although having to actually worry about hitting attacks like Pyro Ball, HJK, and Gunk Shot can be annoying when before you could just click Wicked Blow/CC or Poison Jab if you suspected a Fairy switch. With that being said, I don't really like posts that are mainly untested theory, so I apologize for that, but at the very least, I got to talk a little about considering Cinderace on semi-stall teams. Have a good night/day everyone!
I didn't build this team (ABR did), so I don't want to post the full import, but the team itself is pretty straightforward. I went 32-2 with it to get voting reqs, and I found it to be extremely reliable. This team included Urshifu, partially as a check to opposing Urshifu when coupled with Rocky Helmet Pex as a pivot, but also as an easy way to punch holes in the opposing team, especially after you've weakened some key Pokemon down a little. I feel like the defensive backbone of Blissey, Corviknight, Galarian Slowking, and Pex is sturdy and dependable enough to stand up to most offensive threats, and Ditto is insurance against anything that may set-up and break through, but I was trying to come up with an option to quickly plug in and replace Urshifu. I started to think more about Cinderace, and I feel like the following Cinderace set could work very nicely as the sole breaker on semi-stall teams:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick / Low Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
Although Cinderace's damage output may not always seem to be as overtly oppressive as Urshifu's was, I feel like in a lot of ways Cinderace is a more threatening breaker. I've personally thought for a while that Cinderace was more difficult to switch into and overall better than Urshifu, but that's just my opinion. However, it's indisputable that Cinderace is much more versatile than Urshifu, and I think that running Cinderace on a semi-stall team in particular helps capitalize on its offensive potential, for a couple of reasons. First, I think that Cinderace can afford to be Adamant over Jolly more on semi-stall teams because you have defensive answers, like Corviknight and Pex, to things like Kartana that out-speed Adamant Cinderace. Even if something like an SD Kart does punch a hole in your team, Ditto will become extremely threatening back. The damage boost from Cinderace being Adamant is substantial, as it does things like makes it likely that Pyro Ball 2HKOs Zapdos (Jolly Pyro Ball only has a 1.2% chance to 2HKO 220 Def Timid Zapdos, but when Adamant, that rises all the way to 74.2%). It would be fine to remain Jolly as well for added protection against some faster threats, but Jolly Urshifu only reached 322 Speed anyway (15 points slower than Adamant Cinderace), and I didn't really come across anything that either Urshifu or Ditto couldn't revenge kill/force out. The second thing that Cinderace appreciates about being on a semi-stall team is that I feel like having a plethora of sturdy defensive options to switch to makes it easier to forgo U-turn. I think that Pyro Ball, HJK/Low Kick, Gunk Shot, and Sucker Punch gives Cinderace the best coverage (and Sucker Punch offers very valuable utility), but Cinderace usually wants U-turn for momentum and positioning as well. Stall/semi-stall teams usually aren't as worried about maintaining momentum and have good enough defensive answers to just switch out if they're in a bad spot. Obviously even stall teams don't like being forced to switch out, but I'm saying that they usually are better equipped to do so than other, more offensively-oriented teams. Now Cinderace can't universally break through as many Pokemon as Urshifu could with Wicked Blow, and this could be annoying and force you to play more drawn-out games, but things that are able to repeatedly come in on any of those 4 attacks from Cinderace (like Slowbro, Toxapex, or Hippowdon) aren't really able to do much back to the rest of the stall side of your team. The team I used also ran Future Sight on Galarian Slowking, and while it isn't as useful as Slowbro or Slowking to set up breakers with a Future Sight, since Galarian Slowking can't learn Teleport, it can make it more difficult for things like Pex or Hippo to check Cinderace at times. Finally, having defensive Pokemon that can still capture momentum, like Blissey with Teleport and Corviknight with a very slow U-turn (I talked about this before in this post, but ABR used minimum Speed on Corviknight, which was useful for a few reasons), really helps Cinderace get on the field and fire off big attacks.
I don't really feel like playing anymore now, and I'm planning on finally taking that long break that I've always been telling myself I would, so I haven't tested the team with Cinderace subbed in for Urshifu, but I think that it should be fine. I don't feel like the removal of Urshifu will change too much, at least for a semi-stall team like this - the defensive backbone should still be very solid (Bulk Up/4 attacks LO Urshifu actually was a fairly big threat if they had their own Urshifu answer to handle my Ditto after a sac), but it was nice to be able to go Rocky Helmet Pex to scout/chip opposing Urshifu and then go pretty freely to my own Urshifu on Wicked Blow as a way to abuse CB Urshifu. Cinderace is still going to be extremely threatening and should be able to fill a similar breaker role that Urshifu did, although having to actually worry about hitting attacks like Pyro Ball, HJK, and Gunk Shot can be annoying when before you could just click Wicked Blow/CC or Poison Jab if you suspected a Fairy switch. With that being said, I don't really like posts that are mainly untested theory, so I apologize for that, but at the very least, I got to talk a little about considering Cinderace on semi-stall teams. Have a good night/day everyone!
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With the ban of urshifu, I feel like stall teams are at an all-time high right now. Without the absolutely absurd wall-breaking capabilities that urshifu had, teams that have blissey+skarm+toxapex+clef for example are very hard to deal with.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1259851981-f0j0q7d4o3pvuyntaa26cvaivpmsy3ipw
i ran into a stall team tonight and lost because of how broken they are right now. So i am asking, is their another wall-breaking pokemonin the tier now that can threaten these teams?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1259851981-f0j0q7d4o3pvuyntaa26cvaivpmsy3ipw
i ran into a stall team tonight and lost because of how broken they are right now. So i am asking, is their another wall-breaking pokemonin the tier now that can threaten these teams?
Well, in the beginning of the match you made a play I don't fully understand, which is not taking the free Magma Storm Taunt KO on Blissey. KOing Blissey there would've made your Galarian Slowking and Nidoking huge menaces that probably could've won you the game. Blaziken wasn't doing much with Quagsire and Toxapex. However, the opponent actually misplayed there by going to Blissey instead of Quagsire, so it was likely in a high level match this wouldn't even be a prospect.
Essentially that game could've been won with future sight, which really is the bane of stall teams at the moment. Any time a future sight was up, you would essentially get a KO with Blaziken or Galarian Zapdos. The combination of Blaziken and Heatran may have been able to overload Quagsire in the long game. This matchup definitely isn't losing or unbeatable, in my opinion not even too bad. The opponent's win condition in Salazzle's toxic is really scary but in reality its really hard to pilot a team like this.
Edit: All in all, stall teams aren't "broken" like you say, at least I don't think they will be once the meta develops more. Urshifu leaving opened the door for a multitude of breakers that are nightmares for stall to deal with, like Crawdaunt, Obstagoon, Kyurem, and Aegislash, which are projected to rise in usage in the coming days. Cinderace is still being Cinderace, and the prominence of Future Sight makes playing stall right now have a looming sense of insecurity, especially when a team like your opponents has no way to threaten out opposing Slowbro. Try out future sight Slowbro yourself. Combined with a strong breaker like Cinderace, Gapdos, or a myriad of below-OU breakers, stall should stop being a problem for you.
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pretty rare you find a stall team at that ranking but its not even a necessarily great one, let alone an indicator that ursh was a great stallbreaker. Turn 1 you should've clicked magma storm for the incoming mon that would've been trapped then taunted based on this replay (let's assume best scenarios here in that you hit magma). Where is your water resist on this team? Also Heatran was not the person to receive a Toxic from Salazzle, anything besides the one thing that can cripple these types of builds. Stall can be strong in certain matchups but you got beaten by this because the plays needed to be made weren't made at the correct points. This is kind of independent on how you even handle rain in the first place, Chomp seems like a pain as well.
Ursh didn't even break most stall teams outside maybe the Life Orb set, the Band sets never break them. But that's a sidebar because its not really relevant in the fact that it's banned now and the guy has a clefable so it would have to be life orb with poison jab to even have a chance of breaking that stall team in the first place.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Honestly, after Urshifu got banned Spectrier quickly became the most cancerous mon in the tier. Like really, I ran into that sub nasty plot set in like, four battles in a row and even scarfed variants can easily turn the tide of a battle. Wonder if its gonna get suspected anytime soon
Taunt everywhere !
Trick → Scarf / Specs / Band
But some of them are easy revenge-kill for spectrier
Trick → Scarf / Specs / Band
Cinderace
Heatran
Dracozolt
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Toxtricity (shiftG Drain Punch)
Marowak-A (! knock from clef and tox, kill them on switch)
Victini taunt/trick or mixed attacker
Darmanitan Band
didn't calc at mixed thundurus, can't find/build a set that I like
Heatran
Dracozolt
Conkeldurr
Crawdaunt
Toxtricity (shiftG Drain Punch)
Marowak-A (! knock from clef and tox, kill them on switch)
Victini taunt/trick or mixed attacker
Darmanitan Band
didn't calc at mixed thundurus, can't find/build a set that I like
But some of them are easy revenge-kill for spectrier
I don’t think Blissey is the best example here since half the time it runs Teleport, so you have to have Taunt to trap it. The same can be said for walls like Clef, Slowbro, and even Corviknight sometimes carries U-turn. Trapping moves only really work against Pex, which can’t be poisoned, and Ferro, which dies to a half-decent fire move anyway. Even Hippodown and Skarmory can avoid being trapped with Roar and Whirlwind forcing out the trapper. With Urshifu’s ban, it feels like Taunt may be necessary in order to beat stall.PlusC said: