Lati@s in OU??

[zxn666]

lol

And mew is not as scary as people think too, neither are manaphy or deoxys-s
yet these pokemon are all uber, if for the sole reason that they also perform extremely well in OU

but of course, we want them in ubers cuz they will flood the metagame if we give them any chance in OU

i personally go with this: using legendarys is dumb, go with normal pokes

 

[Duckster]

i personally go with this: using legendarys is dumb, go with normal pokes

I am sorry, but this is an incredibly terrible, irrelevant, unsupported argument.

How would banning legendary Pokemon make sense from a competitive perspective? Now I know I probably shouldn't be wasting my time asking these questions, but I actually want to know why people feel its necessary to clause "legendaries" from standard play. Legendary is a mere title given to a select few Pokemon to make them more appealing to 6 year olds, this title should never be brought up form a competitive perspective.

Also, I'm curious if this will result in further testing in ADV? I would think that even if we DIDN'T unban these things in DP that they deserve testing in ADV. They really just don't have anywhere near the amount of force in ADV if you ask me. And this is without the threat of Physical Pursuit.

 

[Age of Kings]

I am sorry, but this is an incredibly terrible, irrelevant, unsupported argument.

qft

Manaphy would be unbalanced in OU, because Rain Dance teams are beginning to get very popular. It's one of Kingdra's best friends.

I support testing, solely because of their awful (for OU) typing.

 

[umbarsc]

qft

Manaphy would be unbalanced in OU, because Rain Dance teams are beginning to get very popular. It's one of Kingdra's best friends.

I support testing, solely because of their awful (for OU) typing.

The only bad thing about their typing is Pursuit weak. Otherwise, they've got *awesome* typing, because they easily shrug off Ice Beams, only Salamence and Garchomp (well, and Dragonite) use Dragon attacks, and Bug is only used in OU by Heracross and Yanmege. Now we look and see they have resistances to Fire, Water, Fighting, Ground (immunity), Grass, Electric, and Psychic. They can come in pretty easily on electrics, Heatran, fighting-types not named Heracross, Azelf, etc.

 

[Lawman]

I just thought of a potential OU set for Latios:

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Timid: 112HP/ 252SA/ 144Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Hidden Power [Fighting]
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt

EVs allow for both surviability and being able to outspeed Modest ScarfGar. HP Fighting really hurts Weavile, Tyranitar, and Heatran.

Alternatively, Speed could be maxed out to tie with CS Weavile.

Lati_s do seem viable and fair in OU for the most part, but they'd be tough to beat and the metagame may end up shifting just to counter them =X

 

[Sovereign]

I just thought of a potential OU set for Latios:

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Timid: 112HP/ 252SA/ 144Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Hidden Power [Fighting]
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt

EVs allow for both surviability and being able to outspeed Modest ScarfGar. HP Fighting really hurts Weavile, Tyranitar, and Heatran.

Alternatively, Speed could be maxed out to tie with CS Weavile.

Lati_s do seem viable and fair in OU for the most part, but they'd be tough to beat and the metagame may end up shifting just to counter them =X

Blissey.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Blissey.

Thanks but I didnt realize that this was the counter game. We're talking about the viability of the Latis in OU, not posting one word half-thoughts as some sad attempt at trying to be cool. With that being said, even though people say that legendary is just a title to used to appeal to kids, the only ubers are legendaries (bar Wobuffet). There are OU pokes that are probably too strong for OU. (Garchomp, Ttar as Jibaku stated). I also agree that the lack of surprise makes the Latios less threatening than say Salamence, since everyone seems to be comparing the two. Also, Blissey and Jirachi pass wishes better than Latias, and considering that its Sp Atk and Speed are the same as an OU dragon (Salamence), I dont think that Latias is such a threat. And as far as calm mind sets go, any pokemon with 3+ calm minds is probably going to sweep. I'm personally more afraid of Suicune with CM than Lati@s, since Suicune can actually take a physical hit and create 101 subs if it chooses. As far as Specs sets go, while it is true that it would replace Specsmence, thats not to say that it would suddenly become BL. It would just have to actually use its strongest stat (*gasp*). Besides, I see more Mixmence than Specs now anyway. Counters and Calcs have already been posted, so there's no need to reiterate them further, so I'll just say this: People complain about Lati@s overcentralizing the metagame, but when was the last time you played more than two matches on the ladder without coming across a garchomp? or a blissey? If anything this would give some more obscure pokes an opportunity to be used (Registeel). And, although previously stated, all of their counters are OU pokes used in Ubers, and they counter them WITH Soul Dew. So obviously I think they should be tested. (And I realize my opinion doesnt count for much given my low post count, but just take everything into consideration, because the OU metaganme's getting a bit boring already, or at least I think so)

 

[Sovereign]

Thanks but I didnt realize that this was the counter game. We're talking about the viability of the Latis in OU, not posting one word half-thoughts as some sad attempt at trying to be cool. With that being said, even though people say that legendary is just a title to used to appeal to kids, the only ubers are legendaries (bar Wobuffet). There are OU pokes that are probably too strong for OU. (Garchomp, Ttar as Jibaku stated). I also agree that the lack of surprise makes the Latios less threatening than say Salamence, since everyone seems to be comparing the two. Also, Blissey and Jirachi pass wishes better than Latias, and considering that its Sp Atk and Speed are the same as an OU dragon (Salamence), I dont think that Latias is such a threat. And as far as calm mind sets go, any pokemon with 3+ calm minds is probably going to sweep. I'm personally more afraid of Suicune with CM than Lati@s, since Suicune can actually take a physical hit and create 101 subs if it chooses. As far as Specs sets go, while it is true that it would replace Specsmence, thats not to say that it would suddenly become BL. It would just have to actually use its strongest stat (*gasp*). Besides, I see more Mixmence than Specs now anyway. Counters and Calcs have already been posted, so there's no need to reiterate them further, so I'll just say this: People complain about Lati@s overcentralizing the metagame, but when was the last time you played more than two matches on the ladder without coming across a garchomp? or a blissey? If anything this would give some more obscure pokes an opportunity to be used (Registeel). And, although previously stated, all of their counters are OU pokes used in Ubers, and they counter them WITH Soul Dew. So obviously I think they should be tested. (And I realize my opinion doesnt count for much given my low post count, but just take everything into consideration, because the OU metaganme's getting a bit boring already, or at least I think so)

I stopped reading after you said something about viability. If that moveset can't pass Blissey for its life, how is it going to be even viable when you have to deal with a Blissey in just about every team? Good thinking genius.

EDIT: I will bold the part where I said "for its life" to let you know that there are ways to bend around Blissey...just not with the set lawman brought up.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I stopped reading after you said something about viability. If that moveset can't pass Blissey for its life, how is it going to be even viable when you have to deal with a Blissey in just about every team? Good thinking genius.

Repeat after me. Six. Pokemon. Per. Team.

And it's not like it's obligated to run that set 100% of the time. If you read the thread, you'd know that there are sets that beat Blissey.

 

[Sovereign]

Repeat after me. Six. Pokemon. Per. Team.

And it's not like it's obligated to run that set 100% of the time. If you read the thread, you'd know that there are sets that beat Blissey.

You missed my edit. I never said Blissey counters every Lati@s, just the one I quoted. The one reason why I even posted on this page was to simply say that the one set wasn't viable. That's it. Nothing else to it.

 

[Age of Kings]

The only bad thing about their typing is Pursuit weak. Otherwise, they've got *awesome* typing, because they easily shrug off Ice Beams, only Salamence and Garchomp (well, and Dragonite) use Dragon attacks, and Bug is only used in OU by Heracross and Yanmege. Now we look and see they have resistances to Fire, Water, Fighting, Ground (immunity), Grass, Electric, and Psychic. They can come in pretty easily on electrics, Heatran, fighting-types not named Heracross, Azelf, etc.

Azelf is out due to the threat of Explosion (barring having to switch out with choice and switching back in...) and Heatran carries Dragon Pulse at times iirc, as well as Explosion. And every variety better carry Scarf and Psychic+HP Fighting to outspeed and take out potential counters (Weavile and Heracross are primary reasons for Scarf), though Blissey can use some SD EV's, and set-up. I'm sure either enjoys responding to CM Ice Beam. The problem is that those are extremely common weaknesses, which is why I said that they had bad typing in a metagame plagued with Dragon and Psychic targets. Limiting them to pretty much one set is bad, especially with the loss of some power with Scarf. Cresselia becomes a nice special wall, Charge Beams away to set up, then finishes with Ice Beam.

 

[Metabou]

I think Latios should be allowed to play in OU at all. It is just too good. It a lot of sp.atk, and pretty good defenses, good speed. How many people do you think would start using Latios in OU. I probably would. It has a lot higher sp.atk than salamence, 394 which is 44 more and the only thing really stopping it would be Blissey. One calm mind and you got the equivalent of a soul dew latios. The reason is its ability to cam mind and heal hp with recover. You got dragon pulse for stab, and either grass knot or thunder to kill other stuff. Thunder will kill skarm, and do possibly 2hko forretress, and metagross if it hits twice in a row and it doesn't even have too. It's not like they can do anything really, even swampert, you could possibly have grass knot. That is why I think it is uber. Your only problem is Blissey.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

You guys bitch a lot about irrelevent stuff that pretty much applies to every single Pokemon, truth be told.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm not sure what your point is about Azelf and Heatran being able to Explode. Hell, they can Explode on Blissey. That doesn't mean Blissey isn't a generally good counter to them, Azelf and Heatran can't do anything to her (or Lati@s) without killing themselves in the process. The Latis are also a lot more likely to survive an Explosion at high health and Recover on their layover turn. ;[

I stopped reading after you said something about viability. If that moveset can't pass Blissey for its life, how is it going to be even viable when you have to deal with a Blissey in just about every team? Good thinking genius.

SpecsMence is not a viable pokémon-moveset because it's walled by Blissey. You heard it here first, folks. If Blissey walls you, you are not a viable pokémon. Hell, Blissey isn't even viable because it's walled by Blissey.

 

[EconBiscuit]

Mr. E you're walled by Blissey!

Anyways, I don't see just because a poke can't take out blissey means it's a bad poke, Personally I love when a Blissey switches in, Allows me for a couple turns of Set-Up, So I can't do anything to Blissey, It can't do anything to me While I Set up and switch to a pokemon that can.

Also, as LGY stated they're 6 Pokemon on a team, At least one will be built to take out Blissey

 

[Spaniard]

It's pretty funny that you posted this because Jumpman, a few others and myself were discussing this on IRC the other day. The consensus was to maybe start testing it in OU to see how it worked out without Soul Dew.

A moveset? Comedy Choice Specs option.

The problem is: how do you check that your opponent doesn't carry soul dew?

 

[EconBiscuit]

Banette ;).

I guess you could tell if it was carrying soul dew, aswell as most of the people here are respectable battlers, so you expect at least the majority to not use Soul Dew

 

[Gandalf the blue]

Someone already suggested a "soul dew"-clause, and in wifi battles you either know the opponent is familiar with the rules, or you battle a random guy with legend clause or some shit.
Btt: I think i wont use Lati@s as a better specsmence, because even with their higher Satk they are worse. The thing that makes Salamence so great is his ability to hit all pokemon which resist his fat draco meteor for se damage. And they cant do it without the access to flamethrower/Fire Blast. Maybe they dont it need withh their otherwise superior attacks (Grass Knot, BoltBeam, Stab Psychic etc.). But its wrong to say they would be a better salamence and he would vanish in BL.
I hope you could unterstand what i wanted to say^^

greetz Gandalf der blaue

 

[astrohawke]

SpecsMence is not a viable pokémon-moveset because it's walled by Blissey. You heard it here first, folks. If Blissey walls you, you are not a viable pokémon. Hell, Blissey isn't even viable because it's walled by Blissey.

As stupid as that sounds, it's actually pretty close to being true. The pokemon is still viable, just not gonna be as popular as something that is able to get around blissey.

Of course it doesn't count for walls because their purpose is to wall, not sweep. Doesn't matter if a wall can't get past blissey. But if a sweeper can't get past blissey, its popularity goes down. Specsmence is the perfect example.

As monstrous and overhyped as the "best" mence variant as it was, it's really not seeing a lot of use. Considering that only 3 or 4 pokemon can even attempt to wall this pokemon, its usage is pretty low for all its power. Why? Because it has no way of getting past blissey.

The question you ask yourself when considering potential pokemon for slots is why would I put in a pokemon that will be easily walled by 90% of teams out there?

With respect to the lati twins, I daresay there will be the same initial hype like with specsmence but if it's not getting past blissey, its usage will die down just the same. Unless an original set like mixmence comes out for it that allows it to threaten blissey in some way, it probably won't be awesome for long.

 

[Sovereign]

SpecsMence is not a viable pokémon-moveset because it's walled by Blissey. You heard it here first, folks. If Blissey walls you, you are not a viable pokémon. Hell, Blissey isn't even viable because it's walled by Blissey.

Get some E-logic, you need it. There is actually a reason why specmence's popularity is dropping to a mixmence. Yes, it's also very stupid of someone to actually use something that gets walled by the most common wall in the game that easily (not talking about specmence here), and if you do use something of that sort, it's most likely serving a second purpose like inducing sleep or wish. Even with that said, you most likely didn't even read the actual moveset I challenged. At least specmence can somewhat hurt blissey whereas a scarfed latios that doesn't even have recover (if you have this kind of a move on a reasonably semi lasting pokemon...why would you not use it?) not only can't threaten blissey but it also poses a much lesser threat to those that specmence threatens. Next in line is your blissey vs. blissey comment. Yea, last I checked, blissey's usual job isn't to go on the offensive, so the fact that it gets walled is not its concern.

 

[Mr.E]

Yo moron above me, who do you think you're talking to? And how is Latios walled worse than SpecsMence when it is, for all intents and purposes except switching into Heracross, completely superior? Surely you're not comparing a Scarf Latios (umm, Scarf? Are you joking me?) to a Specs Salamence. And of course Blissey isn't typically offensive, you 'tards need to get some brains and learn to recognize blatant sarcasm. I'm not the one that said anything that gets walled by Blissey is completely unusable, though.

SpecsMence, let alone Latios, can blast Blissey for a good 60% or so switching in to Draco Meteor. It's not exactly threatening an outright kill, but it still puts a good dent in Blissey and it needs to be near-full health to get in. It's so strong against almost everything else it hardly matters, though. Heck, even many physical powerhouses have trouble breaking through Skarmory, Bronzong, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Dusknoir depending what it is. Should everybody just play six walls because hey, virtually everything can be walled by SOMETHING. Is it okay to be walled by something besides Blissey? If so, why?

Regardless, Lati@s doesn't care that much about Blissey unless it's a Specs set (in which case, it's still a better Salamence in most instances). Latios can go physical, albeit worse [offensively] than Salamence in this one case. Both Latis can set up Calm Minds on Blissey. Latias can play "wall" herself and wouldn't care about lack of damage. It's not like the Latis aren't quite versatile in their own right.

 

[éyaang]

Someone already suggested a "soul dew"-clause

attn "someone": If Souldew-less Lati@s is allowed in OU, then I want my CBBliss and Brave Iron Ball Deoxys-E in UU.

Seriously guys, you can't just say "x should be tier y if it carries (not) x". Either Lati@s will be allowed, or banned, Souldew or not Souldew.

 

[Aldaron]

Hmmm, I'd like to emphasize Astrohawke's point. It is simply because of being completely walled by Blissey that Specsmence has pretty much given way to Mixmence.

Assuming this same trend occuring with Lati@s, what would happen is that the Calm Mind versions would surface, and Recover off those trivial Seismic Tosses...until Blissey's start replacing Thunder Wave with Toxic, and Lati@s is completely defeated by her.

This would then lead to Dragon Dancing Latios...which is also defeated by a Toxic + Softboiled combination, in addition to simply being more of a gimmick set.

The bottom line is that the practical reality is that being completely walled by the most popular (by far) wall in the game pretty much guarantees that it won't see much usage.

And in terms of power, well, Lati@s is simply not as impressive as initially thought.

And Eyaang: No.

 

[Sovereign]

I dunno, how about you actually read the moveset I was just about talking about the entire time. You're the one who walked in reading one of my posts to the scarf set. You're the one who brought up the specmence too. The fact that you brought up the specmence/blissey viability thing in response to my response to a scarfed set is telling me that you were actually defending the set. Lastly, if something like that truly can't pass blissey in any way...when it's main job is to be offensive with all out attacks, then it is actually unusable.

 

[sanjay120]

Hey, guys, Manaphy can't get past Blissey either! Let's move it to OU! That would surely make for great competitive battling tiers.

Seriously name a few more SpecsLatios counters. TBolt/Draco Meteor/HP Fighting. Do it.