GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Celeb]

Aye, I can easily see this Spearow winning against Falkner. I just did a test myself and my 9lv Spearow with 17 Attack was able to beat Falkner with one held berry, one growl and one critical hit (without it, Pidgeotto survived on red). I didn't doubt you, Volt, but I wanted to see it myself. What a glorious bird.

Victreebel would do even better and potentially sweep Jasmine outright.

How exactly? Will it hit with every Sleep Powder, survive all status effects and dodge every Iron Tail while simultaneously using Growth and sweeping with VINE WHIP? Yes, it is possible but be reasonable.

 

[Random Passerby]

View attachment 312130
View attachment 312131

Because GOAT Platinum stans are built different. This is light work. Didn't want to upload from the phone because you can only do one pic at a time.

No Wild Grinding. Raised from Lv. 2 to Lv. 9 with nothing but trainer exp.

So here's a lesson for anyone that didn't get it. If I say I did something, I did the thing. Run all the calcs you want with these stats.

And Pidgeotto's Gust does 6 damage to Spearow. After a Growl.

Post Sprout Tower it doesn't even need that.

Edit2: As for "Sprout Tower banning", I never advocated for that.

What I said, and this was according to the definitions mods told me, was that it was an optional area. A detour.

Is it a short one? Yes.
Is it mandatory like HGSS? No.
Is it necessary to beat Falkner? Depends on your team.

I'm sorry for doubting you. I didn't even consider Growl.
About Sprout Tower, I misunderstood your meaning.

 

[Stellar]

I just ran through Crystal after being intrigued by a few Pokémon that were mentioned in the thread recently.

My Final Team


Vaporeon (SPRITZ) @ Mystic Water [L41]
- Surf
- Aurora Beam
- Bite
- Quick Attack


Victreebel (HEMLOCK) @ Miracle Seed [42]
- Sludge Bomb
- Vine Whip
- Growth
- Sleep Powder


Granbull (PEPPER) @ Quick Claw [41]
- Return
- Shadow Ball
- DynamicPunch
- Strength


Typhlosion (FEVER) @ Charcoal [43]
- Fire Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Fire Blast
- Sunny Day

My Final Opinions

• Vaporeon → C: This requires a detour to Goldenrod and then across Mt. Mortar, to your Mom to activate the DST phone call, and back, but Vaporeon was able to contribute afterward due to instant access to Surf. You can also pick up Mystic Water on your way to Mom. Bite and Aurora beam actually end up being useful coverage for Slowbro / Dragonite in the E4, especially if you get lucky with flinch. I never felt that Vaporeon was "bad," just that the detour required to get it was annoying. The detour combined with its performance makes it solidly C in my mind.
• Snubbull → C (stay) / B (maybe): I never had one bad moment with Snubbull. It was an easy encounter early in the game that picked up levels quickly. Yes, it's slow, but Quick Claw actually helped it out here very often. It actually gets Lick pretty much right before Morty, which helps by being physical and doing enough damage to the ghosts while also potentially paralyzing. I made the logical progression from Headbutt → Strength → Return and backed that up with Shadow Ball. Many times I felt like I was being held back from using Granbull because I had to let Quilava soak up EXP. I'd lean more toward B than C.
• Bellsprout (Crystal) → C (stay) / B (maybe): Bellsprout came early and got easy levels in Union Cave. It evolved into Weepinbell right before the Whitney fight and was able to set up with Growth and sweep with Vine Whip. It also swept Chuck / Pryce the same way and was able to contribute against Claire and a few other boss battles with Sleep Powder + Sludge Bomb spam. This is another Pokémon I never felt "held back" by other than when it stared down Magnemite / Zubat lines. I'd lean more toward B than C. You still have to backtrack for Leaf Stone, but it isn't as egregious as you pass the requisite Picnicker en route to Goldenrod and then have access to a shortcut back after deleting Sudowoodo.
• Typhlosion → B (stay): This is actually the mon that felt the worst out of the four to me surprisingly. The Quilava period was absolutely atrocious, as I couldn't even 2HKO things like Clefairy with Charcoal Ember and an 8 level advantage. I was able to purchase Fire Blast at the exact same time Sunny Day became available (upon completing Radio Tower), so it was able to contribute a little bit more near the end game. Typhlosion didn't really help at all against Claire, but it was the most consistent of these four in the Elite 4, which I think justifies its B placement. It definitely does not deserve to rise to A.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

About to test the following bad girls:



Cyndaquil: Is there no redemption for Quilava? Is Cyndaquil really bad against Falkner as part of a two-mon ensemble? Can Fury Cutter turn Typhlosion into a boss slayer at least? Can Smokescreen be to her what Double Team is to Ralts in the RSE tier list? No one really uses it...

Phanpy: Does she really belong so low in C? I intend to find out. Early evolution into Donphan (L20), plus she should be an ideal user of Strength and Curlout with 120 Attack and 130 Defense (IIRC). She should be good against Whitney at least, want to find out for sure.

Snubbull: How good is she as a Normal-type? C-tier like Stantler deserves to be? Higher like Furret (B) or even Tauros (A)?

Horsea: Never used them in my life, interested in seeing how good they are. They do seem to have good stats, at least? C seems a little low.

How exactly? Will it hit with every Sleep Powder, survive all status effects and dodge every Iron Tail while simultaneously using Growth and sweeping with VINE WHIP? Yes, it is possible but be reasonable.

More often than your Stantler (named Aegon, curiously) did with Hypnosis. Not every Sleep Powder, just 75% of them. That's...decent IMO.

Who says he has to dodge every Iron Tail or survive all status effects? You set up before Steelix arrives and use healing items if needed.

Bellsprout does better than Stantler does, and far better against Chuck and Morty for sure.

I just ran through Crystal after being intrigued by a few Pokémon that were mentioned in the thread recently.

View attachment 312232

My Final Team


Vaporeon (SPRITZ) @ Mystic Water [L41]
- Surf
- Aurora Beam
- Bite
- Quick Attack


Victreebel (HEMLOCK) @ Miracle Seed [42]
- Sludge Bomb
- Vine Whip
- Growth
- Sleep Powder


Granbull (PEPPER) @ Quick Claw [41]
- Return
- Shadow Ball
- DynamicPunch
- Strength


Typhlosion (FEVER) @ Charcoal [43]
- Fire Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Fire Blast
- Sunny Day

My Final Opinions

• Vaporeon → C: This requires a detour to Goldenrod and then across Mt. Mortar, to your Mom to activate the DST phone call, and back, but Vaporeon was able to contribute afterward due to instant access to Surf. You can also pick up Mystic Water on your way to Mom. Bite and Aurora beam actually end up being useful coverage for Slowbro / Dragonite in the E4, especially if you get lucky with flinch. I never felt that Vaporeon was "bad," just that the detour required to get it was annoying. The detour combined with its performance makes it solidly C in my mind.
• Snubbull → C (stay) / B (maybe): I never had one bad moment with Snubbull. It was an easy encounter early in the game that picked up levels quickly. Yes, it's slow, but Quick Claw actually helped it out here very often. It actually gets Lick pretty much right before Morty, which helps by being physical and doing enough damage to the ghosts while also potentially paralyzing. I made the logical progression from Headbutt → Strength → Return and backed that up with Shadow Ball. Many times I felt like I was being held back from using Granbull because I had to let Quilava soak up EXP. I'd lean more toward B than C.
• Bellsprout (Crystal) → C (stay) / B (maybe): Bellsprout came early and got easy levels in Union Cave. It evolved into Weepinbell right before the Whitney fight and was able to set up with Growth and sweep with Vine Whip. It also swept Chuck / Pryce the same way and was able to contribute against Claire and a few other boss battles with Sleep Powder + Sludge Bomb spam. This is another Pokémon I never felt "held back" by other than when it stared down Magnemite / Zubat lines. I'd lean more toward B than C. You still have to backtrack for Leaf Stone, but it isn't as egregious as you pass the requisite Picnicker en route to Goldenrod and then have access to a shortcut back after deleting Sudowoodo.
• Typhlosion → B (stay): This is actually the mon that felt the worst out of the four to me surprisingly. The Quilava period was absolutely atrocious, as I couldn't even 2HKO things like Clefairy with Charcoal Ember and an 8 level advantage. I was able to purchase Fire Blast at the exact same time Sunny Day became available (upon completing Radio Tower), so it was able to contribute a little bit more near the end game. Typhlosion didn't really help at all against Claire, but it was the most consistent of these four in the Elite 4, which I think justifies its B placement. It definitely does not deserve to rise to A.

Mind telling me what your levels were like at these points in the game?

Violet City (before fighting Falkner)
Goldenrod Radio Tower (before fighting Team Rocket)
Blackthorn Gym (before fighting Clair)

Very quick question: is switch training allowed?

Also...UPDATE: Caught Phanpy on my first try! Threw a Poke Ball while she was at full health and she got in.

A few interesting facts about Cyndaquil:

Headbutt > Ember (while taking into account Falkner's badge boost).

0 Atk Quilava Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 39-47 (11.4 - 13.7%) -- possible 8HKO
Possible damage amounts: (39, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42, 42, 43, 43, 44, 44, 45, 45, 46, 46, 47)

0 SpA Quilava Ember vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 36-43 (10.5 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO - changed to pure Psychic-type for testing
Possible damage amounts: (36, 36, 37, 37, 37, 39, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 40, 42, 42, 42, 43)

With Whitney's boost...

0 Atk Quilava Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 44-52 (12.9 - 15.2%) -- possible 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (44, 44, 45, 45, 46, 46, 47, 47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52)

 

[Celeb]

About to test the following bad boys:



Cyndaquil: Is there no redemption for Quilava? Is Cyndaquil really bad against Falkner as part of a two-mon ensemble? Can Fury Cutter turn Typhlosion into a boss slayer at least? Can Smokescreen be to her what Double Team is to Ralts in the RSE tier list? No one really uses it...

Phanpy: Does she really belong so low in C? I intend to find out. Early evolution into Donphan (L20), plus she should be an ideal user of Strength and Curlout with 120 Attack and 130 Defense (IIRC). She should be good against Whitney at least, want to find out for sure.

Snubbull: How good is she as a Normal-type? C-tier like Stantler deserves to be? Higher like Furret (B) or even Tauros (A)?

Horsea: Never used them in my life, interested in seeing how good they are. They do seem to have good stats, at least? C seems a little low.



More often than your Stantler (named Aegon, curiously) did with Hypnosis. Not every Sleep Powder, just 75% of them. That's...decent IMO.

Who says he has to dodge every Iron Tail or survive all status effects? You set up before Steelix arrives and use healing items if needed.

Bellsprout does better than Stantler does, and far better against Chuck and Morty for sure.




Mind telling me what your levels were like at these points in the game?

Violet City (before fighting Falkner)
Goldenrod Radio Tower (before fighting Team Rocket)
Blackthorn Gym (before fighting Clair)

I was about to make a bigger post about weird lack of split between Crystal Phanpy and Silver Phanpy but then my brain turned on. It reminded me about Phanpy's garbage movepool (Rollout, Mud-Slap, Rock Smash and normal attacks being its only picks before E4). Good luck, Aegon.

About Jasmine and Victreebel - Iron Tail hurts quite a bit and you won't OHKO Steelix with Vine Whip (even at +6) so this is why I mentioned dodging. Setting up against Magnemite is also annoying since it has two status effects to slow the process down. It's just not efficient in a slightest and ends up one big RNGfest. I won't deny Bellsprout's supremacy against Chuck but I raised my eyebrow after you mentioned Morty. Gastly's line resists both grass and poison and can easily wear you down with Hypnosis, Curse and Night Shade. Gengar straight up oneshots you if it hits with Hypnosis and Dream Eater. Comparing Stantler and Bellsprout here is like arguing what has a better chance against a tiger - a chihuahua or a dachshund.

I do not wish to continue the topic further though. I said and tested as much as I wanted with Stantler and, IMO, it's a clear B tier. It clears routes without boosts and items nicely (seriously, STAB Headbutt is amazing midgame) and its performance in important battles is decent (I tested the worst match-ups and battles weren't one-sided). If you disagree, it is fine.

P.S.: It is not unlikely that I named my Stantler after meeting you here :)

 

[aegon the unlikely]

About to fight Falkner after clearing Sprout Tower. Tower was rough for Phanpy, needed a lot of Potions and even left the tower to heal up before fighting Elder Li. My Phanpy is L10 after fighting the two gym trainers and Cyndaquil L11 (haven't used her in the gym yet, at all). No Ember. :(

Tried fighting the Violet Gym before Sprout Tower. Needed Potions just to get through the L9 Spearow with my then L7 Phanpy who outstats Cyndaquil in HP, Defense, and Attack, soft-resetted (I had saved beforehand) to undo the fight and go through Sprout Tower first instead. This is exactly why I think fighting that gym before Sprout Tower is such a terrible idea - if Phanpy can't do it, it's a sure thing that Geodude cannot.

In the tower, I mostly alternated between Phanpy and Cyndaquil, dividing experience the best I could while also trying not to run out of Potions (I did run out of Potions anyway on the last tower level). Phanpy can beat one of the L3 Bellsprouts more or less solo, but will require Potion support to beat two or three. Avoid the L5 ones, they can 3HKO you and can very likely survive a 4HKO - I fought them with Cyndaquil instead but calcs support that.

I also played on Set mode - switch training using Switch mode likely would've saved Potions and money, and it's also the default mode. Would love to clarify the policy on this issue, things would've been far less painful for Phanpy and maybe Cyndaquil could've still gotten Ember that way. Also, I'd have saved Potions. Switch mode really is the ''default'' so it stands to reason we should consider that the norm, no?

 

[Random Passerby]

Set mode is not relevant to tiering fwiw. If you're planning to get Horsea, read what I posted about Seadra to get an idea of what to expect.
I don't see why Switch Training shouldn't be allowed although if a mon needs a lot of it (Magikarp) then it's not efficient.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Set mode is not relevant to tiering fwiw. If you're planning to get Horsea, read what I posted about Seadra to get an idea of what to expect.
I don't see why Switch Training shouldn't be allowed although if a mon needs a lot of it (Magikarp) then it's not efficient.

Ah, that's great to hear! That's another thing we need to establish beforehand. I was playing with Set Mode on. I was able to get through Sprout Tower with Phanpy only a couple of levels behind Cyndaquil (L9 and L11 respectively) with Potion support and a quick return to the Pokemon Center, which leads me to conclude mine was not an efficient run...on Set Mode. Methinks the tower would've been far easier to clear if I was on Switch Mode.

Now to describe my performances against Falkner.

Falkner

Phanpy (L10): Pidgey was easy, went down in like four Tackles - I also set up on him using x3 Defense Curls, with which I was able to tank their Tackles losing like only a couple HP points per hit. From there, I was able to beat Pidgeotto, even living a critical hit before healing up with a Potion (x1) and then Tackling the evolved bird to zero. Neither tried to use Mud-Slap on me any of the three times, just Tackle and Gust, which makes sense I guess. Sounds like a fairly efficient matchup (though it appears some of you aren't fond of spamming ''setup'' moves IMO) - only one Potion was necessary. Yes, the Defense Curl setup on Pidgey is necessary to win the fight, Pidgeotto would beat you otherwise. Yes, the Potion's necessary.

Verdict? A, and only because you need a Potion. Other than that, Phanpy can roll the birds over quite fine.

Cyndaquil (L11): Hoo boy. Pidgey alone nearly soloed Cyndaquil on my first try, the second try I was able to beat Pidgey but at the cost of my HP entering the yellow and then I fought Pidgeotto who would've defeated me even in spite of me using two Potions - yes, my accuracy was that badly shot, and the one hit I managed didn't do a lot. If I had Ember, this fight would've been easier - and I see no point in penalizing like grinding your Pokemon one level. No, I didn't even bother trying the third time lol. I would literally not attempt the gym unless I had Ember, that's how bad the matchup was. Ember allows you to win, not having Ember allows you to lose. Granted, I was only one level away from Ember - which my previous experiences and other people's logs have shown to be a consistent win - so I would say minimum B for this matchup.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

This is exactly why I think fighting that gym before Sprout Tower is such a terrible idea - if Phanpy can't do it, it's a sure thing that Geodude cannot.

What are you talking about? Have you ever even used Geodude?

That Lv. 9 Spearow trainer is light work to it. Geo got high Defense and a resist to Normal and Flying. Outside of Mud-Slap, literally nothing even bothers it, let alone pose a real threat.

Cyndaquil (L11): Hoo boy. Pidgey alone nearly soloed Cyndaquil on my first try, the second try I was able to beat Pidgey but at the cost of my HP entering the yellow and then I fought Pidgeotto who would've defeated me even in spite of me using two Potions - yes, my accuracy was that badly shot, and the one hit I managed didn't do a lot.

You should've switched in and out to reset the accuracy debuff.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm a long time Cyndaquil fan, would be happy to add more tests to the pile. Please recommend mons that need testing and I'll run a party of 6 (emulator, grinding nbd).

 

[Random Passerby]

if Phanpy can't do it, it's a sure thing that Geodude cannot.

What? Geodude resists everything the Gym can throw at it bar Mud-Slap which you can switch out of if there's too much debuff. It also gains Defense Curl at Lv6 although at that point in the game, I'm not sure if the buffs mattered. A Lv9 Geodude would probably need Potion or Berry support though if they keep spamming MS.

I'm a long time Cyndaquil fan, would be happy to add more tests to the pile. Please recommend mons that need testing and I'll run a party of 6 (emulator, grinding nbd).

I would be happy if someone tried Oddish and Poliwag. I think Poliwrath was great but need a second opinion. You can also use Politoed since not many people used it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

What? Geodude resists everything the Gym can throw at it bar Mud-Slap which you can switch out of if there's too much debuff. It also gains Defense Curl at Lv6 although at that point in the game, I'm not sure if the buffs mattered. A Lv9 Geodude would probably need Potion or Berry support though if they keep spamming MS.



I would be happy if someone tried Oddish and Poliwag. I think Poliwrath was great but need a second opinion. You can also use Politoed since not many people used it.

Vileplume / Poliwrath / Typhlosion to start off it is, no trade evos due to emulator

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Vileplume / Poliwrath / Typhlosion to start off it is, no trade evos due to emulator

If you want trade evos, you can trade using Stadium 2 on an emulator. I've done it before countless times on PJ64.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

View attachment 312460

What are you talking about? Have you ever even used Geodude?

That Lv. 9 Spearow trainer is light work to it. Geo got high Defense and a resist to Normal and Flying. Outside of Mud-Slap, literally nothing even bothers it, let alone pose a real threat.

You should've switched in and out to reset the accuracy debuff.

Maru...

I meant Geodude against the entire gym, not just the Spearow trainer.

I don't think that would be fair*. And are you seriously suggesting I switch in and out against a Pidgey multiple times?

*Seeing as even getting Cyndaquil Ember is unfair to some of you, even though it would honestly be more efficient than relying on a teammate.

What? Geodude resists everything the Gym can throw at it bar Mud-Slap which you can switch out of if there's too much debuff. It also gains Defense Curl at Lv6 although at that point in the game, I'm not sure if the buffs mattered. A Lv9 Geodude would probably need Potion or Berry support though if they keep spamming MS.

I meant the entire gym, and the idea of switching out kinda undermines ''solo testing''.

The buffs did matter to Phanpy though, so I'm sure they'd matter to Geodude. I might test that later.

I was about to make a bigger post about weird lack of split between Crystal Phanpy and Silver Phanpy but then my brain turned on. It reminded me about Phanpy's garbage movepool (Rollout, Mud-Slap, Rock Smash and normal attacks being its only picks before E4). Good luck, Aegon.

About Jasmine and Victreebel - Iron Tail hurts quite a bit and you won't OHKO Steelix with Vine Whip (even at +6) so this is why I mentioned dodging. Setting up against Magnemite is also annoying since it has two status effects to slow the process down. It's just not efficient in a slightest and ends up one big RNGfest. I won't deny Bellsprout's supremacy against Chuck but I raised my eyebrow after you mentioned Morty. Gastly's line resists both grass and poison and can easily wear you down with Hypnosis, Curse and Night Shade. Gengar straight up oneshots you if it hits with Hypnosis and Dream Eater. Comparing Stantler and Bellsprout here is like arguing what has a better chance against a tiger - a chihuahua or a dachshund.

I do not wish to continue the topic further though. I said and tested as much as I wanted with Stantler and, IMO, it's a clear B tier. It clears routes without boosts and items nicely (seriously, STAB Headbutt is amazing midgame) and its performance in important battles is decent (I tested the worst match-ups and battles weren't one-sided). If you disagree, it is fine.

P.S.: It is not unlikely that I named my Stantler after meeting you here :)

1. Nah, Phanpy did good against Falkner and route mons. She also wasn't entirely dead weight in Sprout Tower. I'm optimistic that between Normal coverage + 24% badge boosts and Curlout, Donphan should be able to carve a useful niche for herself. And thanks!

2. Iron Tail's also fairly inaccurate and the Magnemites can be put to sleep, and you have items to deal with the RNG part, and I actually beat Morty largely if not only because of Weepinbell (Victreebel?). This was after he was carving through my team like a cake. Morty's Pokemon have low Special Defenses and if you can get rid of the Hypnosis or dodge it, you win. Bellsprout can do something to the guy, Stantler cannot.

X-Accuracy cures all ails anyway and while I know that topic is still ''under discussion'', it really should be highlighted for its power in this game.

3. Meh, Stantler is a C in my book lol. Route clearing is nice but for important matchups I think one needs to be better than ''not one-sided'' to be in B, you need to actually be good against some if not most of the matchups and Stantler, well, ain't it. A Pokemon like Raticate would be B over Stantler as they can do work against Morty, put up a better fight against Jasmine, and do little worse in route clearing to boot while also overall being easier to raise, coming at a better time for Return, and even being strong relatively early on after acquiring Hyper Fang.

 

[Kurona]

I meant the entire gym,

I don't understand this point, as Geodude handles the entire gym better than Falkner.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I don't understand this point, as Geodude handles the entire gym better than Falkner.

I don't understand your point.

Falkner can solo Geodude and between him and his gym trainers, you will lose more easily than to either alone.

What? Geodude resists everything the Gym can throw at it bar Mud-Slap which you can switch out of if there's too much debuff. It also gains Defense Curl at Lv6 although at that point in the game, I'm not sure if the buffs mattered. A Lv9 Geodude would probably need Potion or Berry support though if they keep spamming MS.



I would be happy if someone tried Oddish and Poliwag. I think Poliwrath was great but need a second opinion. You can also use Politoed since not many people used it.

Poliwag's pretty good in Crystal (I would not advise getting one until you have the Old Rod though, you can fish up L10 Poliwag right away with immediate access to Hypnosis and only three levels away from Water Gun which is x2 as powerful as Bubble). They grind wonderfully in the Union Cave against the Firebreathers and Hikers, allowing them to catch up to your teammates pretty quickly and easily. Their individual performance isn't that great until they become Poliwhirl, though their typing and Hypnosis makes them great allies against the rival's Croconaw or Quilava if you picked the corresponding starter. Note that I could not trade and test Politoed, however.

Once they become Poliwhirl, they should be able to pick up Surf immediately and the Water Stone is within reach as well, allowing them to be hard-hitting tanks until the late-game where their power kinda dwindles but is still useful. Natural Rain Dance really compensates for a mediocre Special Attack, and Mind Reader + Dynamicpunch can give you one of the best answers to Karen's Umbreon you'll ever find (if you want them to fight Lance, you can just teach them Ice Punch in lieu of either move after beating Karen, just make sure to have the TM on you). You have natural Submission if you don't wanna go that way too. Poli has a high enough Attack to wear enemies down with Headbutt or Strength as a neutral option.

Overall, I'd say Poliwag is a solid B-Rank. They're not exactly OHKO machines but they are very good at getting 2HKOs and safe 3HKOs given their high versatility + adequate 85/70 offenses and their solid defenses (90/90/95 is actually great). Also, being a Water-type in this game with access to natural Rain and a relatively early Surf allow them to perform really well in the mid-game, even powering through resists.

 

[Celeb]

Just posting here what most people already knew. Sped up for a better viewer experience.

The whole idea about "solo playing" is beyond my comprehension. Omitting switching and trying to brute force your way through major fights with one Pokemon is extremely dumb to me, even for testing Pokemon's performance.

Vileplume / Poliwrath / Typhlosion to start off it is, no trade evos due to emulator

You can use TGB Dual to acquire trade evolutions. It's easy if I recall correctly - just open your savefile twice and trade with yourself.

 

[Ernesto]

Disregarding the last posts, I love how much enthusiasm the latest Quilava controversy has awakened! Also lol Stellar, you beat the game at lightning speed with half my team. I was thinking of trying the same Typh set but I'll keep Sunny Day to try it on Bel too.

I just beat the Rocket Hideout so I figured I might as well share my experience so far. My current levels are 28 except for Bel at 27, I'm thinking I'll be at low 30s for Chuck at this rate.

Falkner

Pidgey (level 11 - 12): 3HKOs opposing Pidgey with Gust while taking 5/32 damage from Tackle. After leveling up it sits at 19 Speed, meaning it ties with Pidgeotto. Both Gusts are 5HKOs so whoever moves first wins (a held Berry undos the damage from Pidgey). Doable especially with Sand-Attack, but hard.
Cyndaquil (level 13): Pidgey lives an Ember and Mud-Slaps, which can be annoying. However, it's only 5HKOed by Pidgeotto's Gust while Ember 3HKOs meaning you should win most of the time, especially with a Berry.

Best course of action is probably leading with Pidgey and then beating Pidgeotto with Cynda.

Bugsy

Quilava (level 17 - 18): OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna with Ember and levels up. Ember seems to be a positive roll to 2HKO Scyther even without Charcoal, while it does very little damage back with Quick Attack.
Pidgey (level 15 - 16): Gust 2HKOs Metapod and Kakuna and 3HKOs Scyther. Be careful of poison, you might want to hold a berry. Note that after String Shot you're slower than Kakuna even after leveling up. Scyther's Quick Attack doesn't do enough so you should be fine.
Poliwag (level 15): Water Gun 3HKOs Metapod and Kakuna, you'll want to put the second one to sleep. It seems to be a 10HKO on Scyther so it's very unlikely you'll be able to win here.
Bellsprout (level 15): With Sleep Powder plus Growth it's actually doable but it'll take a long time. +6 Vine Whip leaves Metapod in red and 3HKOs Kakuna, both can be brought down with Wrap to preserve PP. Scyther takes very little damage still so it needs to be put to sleep and wrapped. I ended up beating it after 5, which is impressive.

Silver (Azalea Town)

Quilava (level 17): Ember 2HKOs Gastly which can put you to sleep or para you with Lick (might wanna give it a berry). Croconaw comes in and 3HKOs with Water Gun, while Ember doesn't even 4HKO with a burn and Tackle does less. Zubat might live two Embers but it's a favorable roll, only thing it can do is confuse you.
Bellsprout (level 15): Vine Whip 3HKOs Croconaw, better put it to sleep or it'll hurt you with its physical moves. You need +3 to 2HKO Gastly, and it's faster so it can Lick or Hypnosis you before you put it to sleep. Zubat might actually be more annoying than Scyther because of Bite and Supersonic, but the strategy is the same. You need to be at +4 to OHKO Croconaw.
Pidgey (level 15 - 16): Gust 3HKOs Gastly while it outspeeds and puts you to sleep. It can't actually touch you so it'll keep spamming Spite. Zubat is 2HKOed by Pink Bow Swift apparently, although it's also faster and can confuse you. Croconaw takes very little damage from your moves and it'll end up beating you.
Poliwag (level 15): Outspeeds and 3HKOs Gastly with Water Gun, you can put it to sleep so it doesn't para you. Zubat is only 4HKOed so you definitely want to sleep it. Croconaw takes no damage so it's pointless.

Whitney

Weepinbell (level 21): Vine Whip is a bad roll to 3HKO Clefairy and appears to be a 6HKO on Miltank (didn't have enough PP but it lived one at +0 and two +2). Sleep Powder and Growth twice, you 2HKO Clefairy and comfortably 3HKO Miltank so you only have to hit the two powders and you can win in green. Needs 5 boosts to OHKO Clefairy and Miltank lives a +6 hit so no point in boosting more than twice. Note that Weepinbell is female.
Victreebel (level 21): Now MS Vine Whip 3HKOs no problem Clefairy but Miltank lives four hits. +1 2HKOs Clefairy and barely 3HKOs Miltank, which means you need one less turn to set up.
Quilava (level 20 - 21): Headbutt and Ember 3HKO Clefairy. Miltank's first Rollout does 1/4 health and Stomp does around 40% while Ember falls short of a 4HKO, meaning you need a lot of Smokescreen luck to win.
With Fury Cutter, you need four hits to KO Clefairy so Smokescreen helps to not get too weakened by Doubleslap (also you might want to get the Gold Berry from the Machop trade, I didn't). Miltank lives the fifth Fury Cutter, so if you were weakened you can die of two Rollouts. I could barely live both with a Berry. It might be advisable to Headbutt Clefairy first so that Fury Cutter needs only three hits and also you can flinch. When you take Metronome into account you realize there's too much luck involved, I only managed to sweep twice (and Clefairy missed a Toxic and Miltank missed Rollout).
With Rollout Clefairy is 3HKOed and Miltank dies to hits four and five, so it's obviously much cleaner. Unfortunately, you still rely on hitting every hit and Clefairy not weakening you enough so that Miltank 2HKOs you, also a Stomp flinch can be lethal. Note that Quilava was male but Miltank never used Attract.
It was Saturday so I decided to go get a Gold Berry at the Bug-Catching Contest. The first mon that appeared was a lv. 13 Pinsir which won me the second price #fail. I finally got it with a lv. 13 Butterfree. With it you can definitely survive three Stomps but you still rely on it not flinching/missing to win. The other strategies are pretty much the same except obviously better, but it consumes all my willpower.
Pidgeotto (level 20 - 21): Pidgeotto swiftly (heh) 2HKOs Clefairy and levels up, unfortunately Miltank is too fat and does too much with Rollout and Stomp (3HKO). You'd need too much luck with Sand-Attack since Pink Bow Swift is apparently a roll to 5HKO, not very reliable. I eventually won in red with three consecutive Stomp misses. Pidgeotto was female.
With a Gold Berry Pidgeotto can live an extra hit from Tank, unfortunately without Pink Bow you no longer 2HKO Clefairy and the cow is still too strong and bulky.
Poliwag (level 20): Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy, you wanna put it to sleep to win unscathed. Miltank comes in and 2HKOs with Stomp, which wins (30% flinch chance + 40% miss chance = 58%) over half of the time. If you can put it to sleep, you're still only 7HKOing it so it has enough time to wake up and Milk Drink to negate your damage. Doubt this is winnable.

So ultimately, the only one that can reliably beat Whitney is Weepinbell. Good to know I guess.

Silver (Burned Tower)

Pidgeotto (level 21 - 22): Haunter outspeeds and Curses, meanwhile Gust doesn't do enough to kill it. Switch out of Magnemite. If you put it to sleep you can 2HKO it with Mud-Slap. You outspeed and two-shot Zubat, watch out for Supersonic. Croconaw doesn't get 3HKOed by Swift but also doesn't do much with Water Gun so you win if healthy enough. You also outspeed. Return does get the 3HKO although Zubat still lives.
Poliwag (level 21 - 22): Poliwag outspeeds and can put Haunter to sleep or 3HKO with Surf, since Curse allows you to kill it and switch out (do watch out for Lick para). You 2HKO Magnemite while living one Thundershock. Zubat is also 2HKOed but can Supersonic. Croconaw is too bulky unfortunately, although putting it to sleep can help weaken it. You basically have to hit a bunch of Hypnosis to have a good matchup.
Weepinbell (level 22 - 23): Haunter outspeeds and can Curse. If you manage to put it to sleep you need three Growths to 3HKO, and even then if it wakes up and Spites it's GG. Better avoid this. If it sets up on Croconaw it OHKOs at +3 (2HKOs at +1) and 2HKOs Magnemite. You also outspeed which is cool. Avoid Zubat, you need +5 to 3HKO and it's too annoying.
Quilava (level 22 - 23): Outspeeds and 3HKOs Haunter, if it Curses you can then KO and switch out unscathed. Dig does like 3/4 but watch out for Lick para. If you put Croconaw to sleep, Headbutt 3HKOs it after a Defense drop (I gave it Rock Smash because Furret doesn't learn it fsr). Water Gun 3HKOs back so be careful. Zubat lives two Charcoal Embers amazingly but Magnemite is obviously OHKOed.

Morty

I apologize for the high levels, I fought every trainer left and right of Ecruteak because I didn't realize the Ghost-type trainers gave me so much experience (I had two level 24s and two 25s before entering). I don't think it made a difference, though.

Poliwhirl (level 25 - 26): Outspeeds everything bar Gengar. Gastly is OHKOed most of the time, both Haunter are 2HKOed and Gengar is 3HKOed. With rain you OHKO the first Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, which spams Hypnosis. The second Haunter can live in red so it's not a full sweep, but good enough. If you get put to sleep Dream Eater 2HKOs so you might wanna have a Mint Berry.
Poliwhrath (level 25 - 26): Now the first Haunter is a speed tie and the second is faster, however Surf leaves the first one in red and guaranteed KOs the second in the rain. Again, a Mint Berry can make the difference in the Gengar fight.
Quilava (level 26): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and the first Haunter while 4HKOing Gengar, who puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Dream Eater. With Dig you OHKO Gastly and the first Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, which means that when holding a Mint Berry you win 64% of the time (not counting that Gengar might Mean Look fsr). The second Haunter lives in red. Only Gengar outspeeds.
Pidgeotto (level 26): Gust 2HKOs Gastly and the first Haunter so you might have to switch out because of Curse. Even with a Mint Berry it's hard to beat Gengar because it's not 3HKOed by Gust and Dream Eater does a ton. Mud-Slap is too weak to do anything but the accuracy drop might help. Hypnosis kept hitting me though so not sure it's worth it. The second Haunter lives two Gusts but can't do anything back. Only Gengar outspeeds.
Weepinbell (level 25): The Gastly actually speed ties which is pretty sad. You 2HKO at +2 and OHKO at +4. Don't really wanna test this further.
Victreebel (level 25 - 26): At +3 you still don't OHKO Gastly but do 2HKO Haunter. You need +4 to 3HKO Gengar, however. With a Mint Berry it's technically doable since lack of MiracleSeed doesn't affect the benchmarks. The second Haunter is 2HKOed but it's a speed tie (and it can Spite). Overall a painful matchup but at least it's better than Bugsy.

Note that Gengar never used Shadow Ball, even tho it might've 2HKOed my frailer mons. That's prolly by design.

So a few points:

-

Quilava can't reliably sweep Whitney, neither with Fury Cutter nor with Rollout. The amount of luck involved is too much, even with a Gold Berry you still need to avoid getting stomped and a miss can prove fatal. Also Metronome can be ridiculous at times. It does however do well against Morty, especially with a Mint Berry. Ember is piss weak though, I just failed to KO a level 18 Gloom while being 9 levels higher.

-

Weepinbell was surprisingly the best in that matchup, not needing too many Growths and taking hits well. It evolved right before Whitney when it was at 19 before entering the gym (truth be told, I realized the last trainer wouldn't give me enough experience because I needed 735 and her three Jigglypuffs gave 243 so I had to fight one wild mon). Vic is obviously a direct upgrade and it has a shot against Morty.

-

Poliwag is very weak before Surf since its best move is Headbutt, however after getting it it's been amazing. Poliwhirl can sweep Morty since it's really fast and learns Rain Dance immediately before evolving (speaking of which, I bought Ice Punch but I doubt it's gonna use it since it wants Hypnosis, RD and Return; learning it after getting Surf makes it lose the niche it had for Croconaw/Quagsire). I'd even say it did better than Wrath since it wasn't taking hits so the speed made the difference.

- On that topic, I got the Leaf Stone at the second call by Picnicker Gina while I was training for Whitney and Tully called me literally two minutes after giving me his number to hand me the Water Stone. No DST trick needed, just clearing the phone numbers and moving is enough so I doubt it should be considered a negative. I prolly got lucky but still, you don't need them immediately as the logs show.

- I don't have much to say about

Pidgeotto, it does what Normal-types do. Gust is a bit too weak to perform well against Morty but its Normal STAB is solid. One thing that's annoying is that it doesn't learn Wing Attack until level 33, meaning its best move against Chuck will be Return. The same can be said about the other Flying-types, tho (only Golbat/Crobat gets a good STAB right before that fight).

That's it for now, if I think of something else I'll edit it in.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I appreciate the suggestions for emulator trading but I'd prefer not to get into that. Still looking to fill out the remainder of the Cyndaquil / Poliwag / Oddish team, open to any and all suggestions for testing.

 

[Kioskate]

I've been lurking for a while and decided I wanted to try a run of Gold with Sandshrew, Drowzee, Scyther (no trade) and Meowth. I plan to make a post talking about everything when I'm done but so far I've beaten Whitney and I'm very impressed by Sandshrew's early game.

A level 6 ground type with Bugsy right around the corner doesn't sound good but immediately after catching it the route trainers are amazing for leveling it. A level 11 Onyx that you beat unless it hits 6 or so tackles through Mud Slaps and you don't have a berry followed by the Geodude trainer who gets set up for free. Everything up to and including Bugsy uses physical attacks and access to Swift helps out too.

Bugsy is a much better matchup than I realized. You get to set up defense curls on Metapod making Scyther's Fury Cutter hit for 2 then you get to spam Sand Attacks so that it never gets too strong before missing.

My Rival has Crocnaw and my assumption was I'd have to get extraordinarily lucky but with 2 potions I beat him 3/5 tries. My Cynderace got to 13 soloing the game until I got to Sandshrew and was 1 battle away from evolving. Using it's smokescreens, Leers and my 2 potions I beat him 3/5 tries 1 time losingto a crit Water Gun and another he kept using it. Most of the time he would mix in other attacks.

I stopped leveling him after that to focus on Drowzee and Scyther to catch them up. At level 18 still he was able to beat Whitney 3/4 tries with Defense Curl and Rollout.

It seems like a bad Geodude is still a great pokemon, at least in the early game. I'll have to see how much it falls off later.

I appreciate the suggestions for emulator trading but I'd prefer not to get into that. Still looking to fill out the remainder of the Cyndaquil / Poliwag / Oddish team, open to any and all suggestions for testing.

You could do Sandshrew as well so there's another persons perspective when we're done, but I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to do something that is already being done.

Edit: I've realized that Sandshrew and Meowth are version exclusive. Given that Meowth isn't exactly a rare pokemon for testing purposes are there any problems with cheating to force one as a wild encounter?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

The whole idea about "solo playing" is beyond my comprehension

If a Pokemon can't beat a major opponent without the help of their teammates (which is what switching entails), it's only fair we count that against them. Not really sure how this is even remotely controversial. Never mind the fact that Cyndaquil nearly fainted to Pidgey alone on my first attempt even with healing support, of course - which honestly should have been enough to declare this a bad matchup without Ember.

Omitting switching and trying to brute force your way through major fights with one Pokemon is extremely dumb to me, even for testing Pokemon's performance

It's actually faster wherever it is actually possible, and in a game where you personally made a big deal about merely getting the Water Stone - and that too at a point where you have the Bicycle, Super Repel, and the fact. It is definitely possible in many cases, as Phanpy demonstrated against Falkner. The fact you are insinuating a Pokemon that can brute force through major fights at a lower level SHOULDN'T be ranked above one that cannot (at a higher level, no less) is extremely dumb, especially given how y'all gave me crap for Cyndaquil being ''overleveled'' just pages ago and how that somehow makes their performance artificially superior. At this point it looks like y'all are making the rules up as you go along.

I personally found your case for Stantler extremely dumb too, given the fact you not only advertise Stantler as B-Tier for getting his butt handed to him by each of the Gym Leaders he faces at least 50% of the time but also fought them underleveled to begin with, which further distorts any case you actually had. Bro, Raticate and Furret can actually win gym battles and unlike Stantler, don't penalize your entire team with slow experience group or coming later and having lower happiness - they can also actually do something to the Gym Leaders without getting paralyzed or hypnotized into mush. If you fought them at closer levels and won, for instance, that would be a slightly more compelling case for Stantler. You should've fought them at comparable levels, like maybe two to three levels above or below, and you fought them at much lower levels. You...didn't.

I appreciate the suggestions for emulator trading but I'd prefer not to get into that. Still looking to fill out the remainder of the Cyndaquil / Poliwag / Oddish team, open to any and all suggestions for testing.

How about something like Qwilfish (swarm) or Krabby? Both have pretty crazy stats for mons you can get literally after badge one.

 

[Random Passerby]

Short update: My Quilava easily swept Whitney with Rollout. It 3HKOes Clef and 2HKOes Whitney. Stomp is annoying but it seems to like to pick Rollout against me.

Muscle obviously can sweep Whitney easily. Give it a Gold Berry if you are worried about Stomp.

And aegon the unlikely , tone it down please. Disagreement is fine. Insulting others isn't.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

And aegon the unlikely , tone it down please. Disagreement is fine. Insulting others isn't

Um, where did I insult others? I said Celeb's strategy was extremely dumb, not Celeb themselves. Y'all have all shown now that brutal honesty or at least attempting it is your forte, I see no reason why I'm being singled out for playing along. Is this a ''rules for thee but not me for me'' thing?

Also, they sure had no issue attacking my strategy (and neither did others like Volt have any issue attacking me more directly). Call it extremely dumb, I'm fine with that and will return the same courtesy or lack thereof. Don't call it extremely dumb, I'm also fine with that and will return the same courtesy or lack thereof. However, please do not think you can call it extremely dumb and think it's not fine for me to return the same courtesy.

I apologize for contributing to the fire in your thread, I don't have a problem with you personally, though I do wish we could establish some ground rules. The unnecessary confusion isn't really helping, and I honestly didn't even know switching Cyndaquil out was approved.

Short update: My Quilava easily swept Whitney with Rollout. It 3HKOes Clef and 2HKOes Whitney. Stomp is annoying but it seems to like to pick Rollout against me.

Curious, how strong was your Quilava? Looks like my old theory about Fury Cutter/Rollout being a reliable answer to Whitney wasn't far off lol, especially if I assume your Quilava was at best L20 (I'd not be surprised if they were a bit lower, given your earlier playthroughs).

I wonder why they picked Rollout? IIRC they picked Stomp against my Quilava in previous playthroughs. What game are you playing, Crystal?

 

[Stellar]

Mind telling me what your levels were like at these points in the game?

Violet City (before fighting Falkner)
Goldenrod Radio Tower (before fighting Team Rocket)
Blackthorn Gym (before fighting Clair)

I have screenshots of two of these (kinda), I think:

After Radio Tower

After Clair

Sorry, I don't have pre-Clair.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I have screenshots of two of these (kinda), I think:

After Radio Tower
View attachment 312687

After Clair
View attachment 312688

Sorry, I don't have pre-Clair.

Thank you!

It is pretty concerning to me that your Pokemon are lower than Clair's Dragonair even after fighting her. It does seem as if a lot of us can't keep level parity with the bosses' strongest Pokemon (excepting the E4 or Lance for obvious reasons) even with with a 4-mon team.

Do you plan to train to L40 before fighting the League?