GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

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Also, they sure had no issue attacking my strategy (and neither did others like Volt have any issue attacking me more directly).
Just because I said your posts made you look dumb, doesn't mean I think you're dumb. At the time, I actually thought you were too smart to be producing those kind of terrible arguments.

Otherwise, I'd have just skipped the whole process and call you a dumbass straight up. :mehowth:
 
Just because I said your posts made you look dumb, doesn't mean I think you're dumb. At the time, I actually thought you were too smart to be producing those kind of terrible arguments.

Otherwise, I'd have just skipped the whole process and call you a dumbass straight up. :mehowth:
What do you say to this, Random Passerby?

I'm going to skip one whole process, all right - please don't respond to me again. You would not be justified in calling anyone a dumbass straight up regardless of the actual merit of their points, just to clarify. Your attitude is not becoming, mature, or witty. I'm being very calm when I say this.
 
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Thank you!

It is pretty concerning to me that your Pokemon are lower than Clair's Dragonair even after fighting her. It does seem as if a lot of us can't keep level parity with the bosses' strongest Pokemon (excepting the E4 or Lance for obvious reasons) even with with a 4-mon team.

Do you plan to train to L40 before fighting the League?
I’ve already beaten the game. The information was in the post you originally quoted.
 
If a Pokemon can't beat a major opponent without the help of their teammates (which is what switching entails), it's only fair we count that against them. Not really sure how this is even remotely controversial.
It is controversial in my eyes because Pokemon games offer you a chance to build your team. If you catch a few Pokemon, train them evenly and then pit your one underleveled Pokemon against a gym leader you should not expect good results. Sweeping all major battles is not a requirement for higher ranks (even S one) as can be easily seen in other tier lists. Refusing to admit that Pokemon can be in B tier because it has three bad match ups (out of ~20 major battles, counting Kanto) is ridiculous.

The fact you are insinuating a Pokemon that can brute force through major fights at a lower level SHOULDN'T be ranked above one that cannot (at a higher level, no less) is extremely dumb, especially given how y'all gave me crap for Cyndaquil being ''overleveled'' just pages ago and how that somehow makes their performance artificially superior. At this point it looks like y'all are making the rules up as you go along.

I personally found your case for Stantler extremely dumb too, given the fact you not only advertise Stantler as B-Tier for getting his butt handed to him by each of the Gym Leaders he faces at least 50% of the time but also fought them underleveled to begin with, which further distorts any case you actually had. Bro, Raticate and Furret can actually win gym battles and unlike Stantler, don't penalize your entire team with slow experience group or coming later and having lower happiness - they can also actually do something to the Gym Leaders without getting paralyzed or hypnotized into mush. If you fought them at closer levels and won, for instance, that would be a slightly more compelling case for Stantler. You should've fought them at comparable levels, like maybe two to three levels above or below, and you fought them at much lower levels. You...didn't.
I have noticed that your methodology requires having a great knowledge of the game you play (knowing what trainer gives you what items, knowing where to train up before each gym leader, beelining for specific items and being aware of glitches) and grinding to match gym leader's levels. The former is obviously controversial because some people state that these lists are for casuals who do not know all those things I listed. The latter is disliked by people in general because you are wasting time. In casual playthroughs, you won't battle with gym leaders on equal terms - that's just not possible with level curve in GSC. I battle every single trainer in these games while running from random encounters. This was my team progression in Crystal once:
Chuck: Team of 4 Pokemon 30/27/28/17 (3 levels below his average)
Jasmine: Team of 4 Pokemon 31/28/28/19 (~5 levels below her average)
Pryce: Team of 4 Pokemon 32/31/30/29 (1,5 level above his average)
Clair: Team of 5 Pokemon 34/35/34/34/29 (~5 levels below her average)
E4: Team of 6 Pokemon 37/37/35/35/36/41 (the last one being Entei)
My levels are not against the rules presented in the original post of this thread.

As for my Stantler videos - they are a realistic approach to how the game might turn up. 21 level against Morty already requires 6 level ups. Having a higher level necessitates clearing all routes around the town with just Stantler alone. I could have just said "well, Stantler is a bad match up against Morty" and move on, however I actually bothered to check it and proved that it provides help in battle. I have no idea why you insist on repeating that it doesn't since it reliably takes care of Jasmine's Magnemites, Chuck's Primeape and Morty's Gastly+Haunter.

TL;DR: In my opinion, your methodology to these tier lists (this one and RSE one) is wrong because you do not understand what casual and efficient means. Being too focused on trivial matters like Pokemon's performance against one specific battle (Geodude/Cyndaquil vs Falkner here and Torchic/Combusken vs Roxanne in RSE thread) is also very time consuming for everyone involved (while not being really that impactful for Pokemon). It's an overall performance that matters.

Random Passerby, if you think that I am taking it too far with Aegon, let me know. I won't hide the fact that the whole situation pisses me off so it's probably visible in my posts.
 
I’ve already beaten the game. The information was in the post you originally quoted.
My bad! I looked it up, looks like your team got into the L40s.

Good stuff. Is it okay if I ask you more about your Snubbull and Cyndaquil nominations? C-stay, B-maybe seems kinda low for Snubbull relative to the other Normals (Furret and Raticate for instance are solid Bs, not sure what you think of those) and I'd argue Typhlosion is actually pretty dope against the E4 in addition to being consistent - which she certainly is - perhaps enough to rise to an A. SunnyBlast in my experience was killing things with ease to the point Typhlo virtually soloed the E4 and put in work against Lance too, not just his Gyarados and Charizard.
 
Looks like I'll be stuck with just my phone for a bit longer than I expected, so I'll drop my thoughts without too much formatting. Sorry about that.

Running Cyndaquil, Spearow, Wooper and Snubbull.

Lv. 5 Cynda beats Totodile with no effort whatsoever. Leer, spam Tackle. You have a Berry. Silver doesn't.

Spearow is a freaking beast. Lv. 2 catch does not matter. Can beat Mikey's Pidgey free at Lv. 3. Switch grinding against Joey's Rattata sets it up to clearing routes on its own.

Arrived at Violet City with Spearow at Lv. 6 and Cyndaquil at Lv. 7.

Cyndaquil 3HKOs Lv. 3 Sprouts in Tower, Vine Whip still does nothing to it tho.
Spearow does OHKO them.

Walked in Falkner's Gym with Lv. 7 Spearow and Lv. 8 Cyndaquil. Damn near got swept. Needed a Potion. That Spearow is demonic.

Attempt 1 - Cyndaquil landed one Tackle on Pidgey. Got hit with Mud-Slap. Whiffed 4 Leers. Reset.

Attempt 2 - Much better. 1 Leer means a 3HKO on Pidgey. If you can land Tackles that is. I couldn't. Run it back.

Attempt 3 - Gave up on the Sweep. Used a Leer then traded blows until Berry triggered. Landed 2 Tackles, switched to Spearow for the Acc. Reset.

Cynda finished the job. 11/28 HP. No Berry.

R2 - Spearow vs. Pidgeotto.
Spearow outspeeds, lands Growl.
Gust did 6dmg. 23/29 HP.

Spearow wins. 5HKO with Peck. Needs a Berry. Solid matchup, skips Mud-Slap Hax.

Attempt 4 - Spearow 3HKOs Pidgey. 19/29 HP. Didn't even need a Berry.

R2 - Spearow vs. Pidgeotto.
Double Growl is not worth it. Only one dmg point difference on Gust.

My boy is clutch tho. 2/29 HP remaining. Needs a Berry. No Potion. Can Sweep.


Attempt 5 - Spearow 3HKOs Pidgey.
R2 - Cyndaquil vs Pidgeotto.

Tackle does fuck all. Seriously, look at the pic.
Pokemon - Crystal Version (UE) (V1.1) [C][!]_1612051210428.png


Gust does 7dmg. No deal. (Ain't nobody got time for healing 1hp off a Vine Whip.)

1 Leer ain't enough. It's a 5, 6HKO with the Leer. Back to Sprout Tower.

Might as well wrap up Sprout Tower. Johto is too stingy with Exp to not go for a detour this small.

Cyndaquil 4HKOs Lv. 6 Sprouts. Not bad, but nothing to write home about. Instantly leveled up tho. Spearow didn't on the next one.

Spearow didn't OHKO a Lv. 7 Sprout. Damn near close tho. No threat at all. It used Growth.

Spearow's Medium Fast Exp. Group sucks up a bunch of Exp and prevents Lv. 12 after Sprout Tower.
The best group outside of Fluctuating up to almost Lv. 30 is actually Medium-Slow. Anything else can mess things up.

Back to Falkner. Forgot to give Berries before team pic. I'll edit it in later.

Attempt 1 - Spearow still dunks on Pidgey.
R2 - Cyndaquil vs Pidgeotto.
Gust does 6. Cynda outspeeds.

Damage still bad tho. 5HKO.

Doesn't *need* a Berry, but wants one as a safety net in case of a crit.

Falkner did not use Mud-Slap against Cyndaquil even once with Pidgeotto in all tests. However, Pidgey does use it. Sweep unlikely, if not impossible, due to hax.

Did Falkner ever hit Cyndaquil with Mud-Slap in any of your tests? Might be an AI quirk.
 
It is controversial in my eyes because Pokemon games offer you a chance to build your team. If you catch a few Pokemon, train them evenly and then pit your one underleveled Pokemon against a gym leader you should not expect good results
Please point out where I actually spoke in favor of that strategy.

Sweeping all major battles is not a requirement for higher ranks (even S one) as can be easily seen in other tier lists
Never said it is? However, sweeping all or most major battles absolutely is a very good reason to be in a high tier.

Refusing to admit that Pokemon can be in B tier because it has three bad match ups (out of ~20 major battles, counting Kanto) is ridiculous
Actually, 3/20 major battles keeping you out of A or S is what's ridiculous. The hilarious part is that Geodude literally gets bent against more Gym Leaders than Cyndaquil does - Chuck, Pryce, Clair, Erika, Misty, Sabrina, Brock, Will, Koga, and Bruno are all bad matchups for you. That's way more than 3 major battles, yet Geodude is in A. In contrast, Typhlosion can either put in major work against most of these opponents or even flat out solo. Geodude is useful against the E4 but is limited to picking off specific mons while Typhlo can basically solo entire members herself.

Also, you mean only two, right? Just Chuck and Clair? As people have shown, even Whitney isn't necessarily a bad matchup.

I have noticed that your methodology requires having a great knowledge of the game you play (knowing what trainer gives you what items, knowing where to train up before each gym leader, beelining for specific items and being aware of glitches) and grinding to match gym leader's levels
Well, we're the one making the tier list for the benefit of fans who don't know so much.

Why should we not have a great knowledge of the game we play? What business do we have tiering Pokemon if we don't?

The former is obviously controversial because some people state that these lists are for casuals who do not know all those things I listed
Cool, which is why we can...teach them? Guide them?

What's the point of a tier list if it doesn't give them an accurate perspective of how good their Pokemon is ingame?

The latter is disliked by people in general because you are wasting time
And you're not wasting time by getting your Pokemon defeated by opponents they could have otherwise beaten?

You're not wasting money by using way more healing items or X-Items than you would have needed otherwise? Or does that suddenly not matter?

We can penalize Pokemon who need too much time to be strong, you do know that, right? Do you think I'm saying we should do nothing?

Am I not the one who's been telling you that Stantler's low exp growth is why they should be in C, not B? Am I not one of those casting doubt on the ranks of the big Normal-types specifically because of how much time it takes to train them and how that hurts your other teammates?

Also, newsflash: you DON'T need to waste time on grinding in the wild or anything - and neither do you need to waste money or resources like Potions - provided you actually increase your Pokemon team size incrementally. You need to be realistic here, fam. If you're going to penalize Pokemon for needing time to show their true worth, literally every single one is garbage. Even Totodile and Abra don't destroy everyone they come across automatically, they need investment in the form of grinding experience and healing items and what not, and they're in the top tier. Your S-Class Feraligatr arguably has LESS team soloing potential as part of a 4-mon ensemble than Typhlosion does, for crying out loud.

Please be realistic.

In casual playthroughs, you won't battle with gym leaders on equal terms - that's just not possible with level curve in GSC. I battle every single trainer in these games while running from random encounters. This was my team progression in Crystal once
Cool, except...I did precisely the thing you said is impossible. It can be done. I have done it. People in earlier tier lists have done it.

And yes, I also battle every single trainer in these games. My entire team made it to L40 and above, whether I had Trade-Fearow in my team or the experience hog Stantler, before I fought the Elite Four. Clearly there's something you're missing that I'm not.

My levels are not against the rules presented in the original post of this thread.
Maybe we should change the rules then. It makes no sense to fight opponents at a massive disadvantage or advantage.

As for my Stantler videos - they are a realistic approach to how the game might turn up. 21 level against Morty already requires 6 level ups. Having a higher level necessitates clearing all routes around the town with just Stantler alone. I could have just said "well, Stantler is a bad match up against Morty" and move on, however I actually bothered to check it and proved that it provides help in battle. I have no idea why you insist on repeating that it doesn't since it reliably takes care of Jasmine's Magnemites, Chuck's Primeape and Morty's Gastly+Haunter
Yeah? Quilava can beat Primeape too and Typhlosion (even Quilava tbh) can beat Clair's Dragonair.

TL;DR: In my opinion, your methodology to these tier lists (this one and RSE one) is wrong because you do not understand what casual and efficient means
Yeah, I think you're the one who needs to fix your terminology. Your idea of ''efficient'' considers time the only important resource. Your idea of ''casual'' means going through the game blindly instead of letting players know what they can do to do well.

Being too focused on trivial matters like Pokemon's performance against one specific battle (Geodude/Cyndaquil vs Falkner here and Torchic/Combusken vs Roxanne in RSE thread)
I'm not being ''too focused'' at all? I just said that Torchic/Combusken should be a neutral matchup and it's one that others supported.

Random Passerby, if you think that I am taking it too far with Aegon, let me know. I won't hide the fact that the whole situation pisses me off so it's probably visible in my posts.
Yeah, the feeling's mutual.
 
Here's log 2. About to fight Bugsy with L17 Phanpy (Teal) and L16 Quilava (Dayquil).

Now to describe my performances against Bugsy.

Phanpy (L17): Tried the x6 Defense Curl strategy on Bugsy - didn't work! Set up on Metapod and beat him with Tackle, then Mud-Slapped Kakuna into submission. I had Flail which increased in damage in tandem with my falling HP to the point it did more damage to Scyther even as Scyther did more damage back to me with Fury Cutter. Yep, we did more damage to each other over time...except he was faster, so he won. Tried again and while the cocoons were easy, Scyther at max Fury Cutter is easily capable of two-shotting Phanpy at +6 defense - even a Super Potion didn't change that. I won't bother repeating this matchup a third time, it's clear the x6 Defense Curl strat is not going to keep him safe. Flail did admittedly do enough damage to bring Scyther to the yellow once my HP was also in the low yellow (not red), which...is interesting. Pretty strong counter-move.

Overall, D tier or lower. Phanpy fails here, though she does put quite the hurt on Scyther, which is still impressive (note she was also wearing a Pink Bow, giving her a 10% boost to Flail). An X-Attack or two might clinch this matchup though.

Quilava (L16): Decimated Bugsy three times more or less consistently - Ember reliably 3HKOs Scyther at least without Charcoal, while Fury Cutter fails to 3HKO even in spite of Scyther being faster. That being said, Scyther shifted strategies on my third try, using Quick Attack at the beginning and end with a Fury Cutter in between. The Quick Attacks led to Quilava's HP falling into the moderate yellow zone, something which did not happen the first two times (HP stayed in the green consistently both times). Also, the first two times Bugsy went Metapod -> Scyther -> Kakuna whereas he went Metapod -> Kakuna -> Scyther the final time. This is in spite of me taking out Metapod the same way both times. Wonder why?

Easy A tier. Win every time, no items needed.

And now to describe my fight with Gale, my rival.

Phanpy (L17): Mud-Slapped Gastly into submission with little issue on each of my three tries - they missed with Hypnosis very often in spite of outpacing me and the very first of my Mud-Slaps, two of which were enough to KO easily. No Lick paralysis either. Out came Croconaw, whom I Mud-Slapped immediately. Now here's the scary part. I survived not one, but TWO Water Guns - with my HP falling into the very low red - and then fired off a Flail that immediately brought Croconaw into the yellow. From there I used two Super Potions to bring Phanpy back to full health and fired off a few Flails again, surviving the Water Guns with very little HP but KOing Croconaw. This was my first try - the second try, I just spammed Flail after tanking the first Water Gun until they died (they missed all but one shot at the very end), no Potions necessary. On to the third try.

Third try went a lot worse, with me getting a low damage roll on Flail and Croconaw actually KOing Phanpy this time in spite of me using two super Potions. That said, I could have won if I used one more Super Potion while my health was in the yellow - I just got cocky. Croconaw also never missed this time IIRC in spite of being Mud-Slapped like the other two times. Overall, Phanpy can solo this matchup with maybe four super Potions at most - you might even only need one (for Zubat)! To be clear, I needed three Super Potions the first time, only one the second time, and four the third one. That's roughly an average of three at most, and you can get multiple Super Potions in the wild alone or buy them cheaply from the Azalea Poke Mart.

Verdict? C tier. Not super efficient and definitely needs some healing support, might even need two Super Potions or more (or none) depending on how your luck goes. On the other hand, Phanpy can actually legitimately win this fight and a victory is far more attainable here overall than with Bugsy.

Quilava (L17): Set up Fury Cutter on Gastly - but not without spamming x6 Smokescreen to destroy his accuracy near completely. I then slowly but surely cut the gas ball down and had enough power to cleanly one-shot Croconaw once he came out - on all three attempts. I equipped a Przcureberry but didn't need it even once and while I did get put to sleep at least once every fight, I was able to break out and get a Fury Cutter going, KOing Gastly and then Croconaw right afterward. Not once did my HP fall into the yellow zone and not once did I need a Potion or more.

Given how infamous this matchup is for most people and how badly prepared my team was for the rival's Croconaw type-wise, Smokescreen + Fury Cutter has proven to be an enormously powerful and useful strategy, especially when set up against a mon like Gastly with iffy accuracy. Even the two tries (the third try and the final attempt, which wasn't really a test) Fury Cutter missed in the middle, I was able to build it up with enough power to one-shot Croconaw each time. Just hit Zubat with Ember instead, even a max power Fury Cutter will only 3HKO them lol. No healing needed.

Not bad for a Pokemon with bad Attack IVs and an infamous midgame reputation. Verdict? A tier personally, given how this is like one of the hardest boss battles in the game and certainly the most infamous Rival battle in GSC - the others are a lot easier generally speaking. I won't rank them at S given that you kinda need the Fury Cutter TM to win here, without it you don't have a shot. However, this strat worked for me four times over times and given the importance as well as difficulty of this battle - I have literally never had it this easy against the rival - A sounds totally fair. The amount of Smokescreens you throw out, combined with the already shaky accuracy of Gastly's attacks, make him reliable setup bait.
 
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DHR-107

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This is bordering into thread hog territory. Down in CaP, we actively discourage people from thread hogging because it just becomes a single user shouting into the wind. This is what is starting to happen here. People will just ignore you in the end dude. You aren't winning anyone over. Just concede something sometime. While we don't have rules against thread hogging, it doesn't look great to me.

Since reopening the thread you have posted... 26 times in 5 days. Out of 62 replies since I posted, you've been nearly half of them.

Take. A. Break. I've now told you this twice and you've ignored it both times. In fact, it was so bad we locked the thread instead.

Orange Islands is supposed to have a pretty relaxed atmosphere. This thread is anything but relaxing at the moment. That goes for everyone. Chill out jeez. This isn't some life of death list, it's supposed to be a bit of fun for people to work towards.

Also: IMO something which needs to set up 3+ Smokescreens to win a matchup is not efficient and is not a high tier mon. That basically comes down to an RNG fest which no one wants to bother with most of the time. Same as Ralts using Double Team over in RSE. It should count against a mon, not for it. I don't have a horse in this race, but I've been reading.

Phanpy is fine for now, but I found it really struggles mid game with zero upgrades to STAB options until way later and you get stuck with Headbutt/"Curlout" for way way too long. Mud Slap accuracy drops are amusing though and with its good attack it still does reasonable damage.
 
Can't seem to do anything right, can I now?

Me: Suggests ways to keep up with the Crystal level curve far better.

Y'all: ''STAHP TELLING US TO OVERLEVEL ONE POKEMON!!!111'' (even though this also means you can literally avoid training that Pokemon for a fair while and spend the rest of your time and experience on other Pokemon in that time - also, I even conceded the point to end the chaos)

Me: Shows people it's possible to keep your Pokemon levels close to major bosses without solo running, candy spamming, or using fewer than 4 mons.

Y'all: ''STAHP TELLING NOVICES WHAT TO DO!!!11!'' (never mind the fact we're doing this to help ''novices'')

Me: Posts logs like Nova did and interacts with other posters like Celeb who respond to my assessments of Pokemon in ''brutally honest'' ways.

Y'all: ''STAHP SPAMMING THIS THREAD!!11!'' (never mind the fact I'm helping keep the thread alive, which should be a....good thing?!)

Me: Shows a viable strategy that worked FOUR TIMES OVER against the same opponent. Yes, you read that right. Also a strategy actively considered as part of the case for Ralts's ranking in the RSE tiering thread by posters or at least up for discussion. Gastly's attacks are iffy enough in accuracy that Double Team spam consistently works - works so well that Quilava needs zero item support to win in my experience, not even a Potion or Berry. Also note that I didn't even say this singular matchup made Quilava a high-tier mon, although saying this isn't efficient when it worked 4x over and allowed me to roll one of the toughest matchups over each time is just pretty...bruh. As I said before, time is only ONE resource among many and if you do have time to play a video game at all, you very likely can spend a minute setting up before hacking through Silver. Stop putting words in me.

Y'all: ''NOT EFFICIENT!!1''

Me: Has genuine fun playtesting these Pokemon, although I will admit not knowing that switch mode was okay earlier on...wasn't great.

Y'all: ''HAVE FUN DUDE! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!''

And then I have posters like Celeb, Turdterra, and Volt taking potshots at me directly or indirectly, insinuating I have vapor for brains or that me trying to see how a Pokemon does well against a major opponent without backup (after all, pretty sure needing backup is worse than not needing backup, especially when Pokemon who don't need backup exist...right?) is ''extremely stupid'', if not calling me a ''turd'' outright. Like only a handful of people on this thread have actually acted somewhat reasonably, including Random Passerby and Xator_Nova. Yet I'M the problem.

Take a look at yourselves. You are getting riled up by the fact I dare to disagree (and courteously at that, which is far more than what I can say for you). Even when I do things your way or try to - I didn't even know it was okay to switch to another teammate in one case, that was a genuine lack of knowledge on my part - y'all are more interested in screeching at me. That even a moderator is clearly taking sides is not a good look (and yes, you did, I haven't forgotten your earlier comment blaming me for the ''decline'' of this thread or whatever backward accusation you had).

Edit
: The fact you're angry at me for POSTING in this thread is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. Normally a person should be happy that I'm contributing to discussion and helping keep a thread alive, as long as I'm doing it in a friendly way - which is what I've been doing - and even some of my detractors on this thread admitted I made some fair points (such as for Tauros, Miltank, and Staryu).
 
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'Normally a person should be happy that I'm contributing to discussion and helping keep a thread alive
Ironic coming from the guy who's stubbornness killed the thread entirely for a week

No one's mad at you for posting in the thread, or even disagreeing for that matter. The annoyances stem from the fact that when your arguments are refuted, you get defensive about it (your past few posts especially show), double-down, and continue to beat the dead horse with the same exact or similar argument and it ends up polarizing the whole thread and drowns out any sliver of meaningful discussion.

Arguments are not an infinite loop. Learn when the argument is lost, drop it, and move on with other topics. And also let others chime in. You don't need to post every other post in order to contribute discussion; meaningful discussion with these tier lists require a balance of several people.
 
Ironic coming from the guy who's stubbornness killed the thread entirely for a week

No one's mad at you for posting in the thread, or even disagreeing for that matter. The annoyances stem from the fact that when your arguments are refuted, you get defensive about it (your past few posts especially show), double-down, and continue to beat the dead horse with the same exact or similar argument and it ends up polarizing the whole thread and drowns out any sliver of meaningful discussion.

Arguments are not an infinite loop. Learn when the argument is lost, drop it, and move on with other topics. And also let others chime in. You don't need to post every other post in order to contribute discussion; meaningful discussion with these tier lists require a balance of several people.
My stubbornness didn't do it singlehandedly, in case you missed that part. I also stopped making those arguments, in case you missed that too.

If it makes you feel better, I know I'm partly to blame...that time. This time, not so much.

Me responding to someone calling my arguments ''extremely dumb'' is ''defensive'' now? I would've agreed to disagree had it not been for the attitude they were showing, and have done precisely that several times over EVEN when guys like you were going at me sideways. I even said I literally did not know I was allowed to approach the case in a different way, and had I simply been told that, everything would've been fine. I'm not stopping others from chiming in, ironic you're saying that to a guy who just got told off for posting ''too much'' (whatever that means) in the first place.

Try being more honest with your criticisms, please. Your attitudes stink and make you come off as cliquey. I'm not posting ''every other post'' for that matter, I'm posting LOGS which are kind of important to help people see what's possible. That's literally the post before you and the mod.
 
My stubbornness didn't do it singlehandedly, in case you missed that part. I also stopped making those arguments, in case you missed that too.

If it makes you feel better, I know I'm partly to blame...that time. This time, not so much.

Me responding to someone calling my arguments ''extremely dumb'' is ''defensive'' now? I would've agreed to disagree had it not been for the attitude they were showing, and have done precisely that several times over EVEN when guys like you were going at me sideways. I even said I literally did not know I was allowed to approach the case in a different way, and had I simply been told that, everything would've been fine. I'm not stopping others from chiming in, ironic you're saying that to a guy who just got told off for posting ''too much'' (whatever that means) in the first place.

Try being more honest with your criticisms, please. Your attitudes stink and make you come off as cliquey. I'm not posting ''every other post'' for that matter, I'm posting LOGS which are kind of important to help people see what's possible. That's literally the post before you and the mod.
Dude, take an L on this. Seriously. The thread has already suffered enough as it is and you doubling down hasn’t helped at all. You got outvoted on more than one occasion, you’ve been warned twice by DHR, and you’ve pretty much ruined any kind of trust/relationship with some members who were only trying to help/guide you (which to you we weren’t, but in fact were when we tried explaining things as they were. You just got really defensive and nasty.) You have also posted more than any other user here. You essentially cover half the thread which is straight up unhealthy for this thread. That’s already got you warned.

Seriously, tone it down. Take a breath. Maybe stay offline for a day or two to recollect thoughts. This seems to consume your life here.
 

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egg, i generally think you've got the right idea with your tiering ideas, not maybe in exact terms but in principles generally yes. but you have been abrasive, even as you've countenanced it with your arguments and courteousness simultaneously. i know this because i've done exactly as you've done many times myself, and been on this side of the fence a handful of times too. fact of the matter is the well is poisoned against you as you currently are, the others in this thread perceive you as unpleasant to deal with even when you aren't being unpleasant because you haven't given them a reason to see otherwise. you're not incorrect either in your assessment of reacting to people only as they've reacted to you and escalating similarly. problem is, that doesnt matter. perception is reality and the perception of either side being a negative presence makes it impossible to see beyond that, that's human nature.

best course of action is to continue as you are, but stick more to the testing side. the back and forth with people is good in moderation but needs to be in moderation. the arguments with people don't ever lead to productivity and certainly aren't worth the effort it takes to fight them. again from more experience than one person should probably have.

let's focus on our own contributions for the next bit and i expect things will smooth out
 
My stubbornness didn't do it singlehandedly, in case you missed that part. I also stopped making those arguments, in case you missed that too.

If it makes you feel better, I know I'm partly to blame...that time. This time, not so much.

Me responding to someone calling my arguments ''extremely dumb'' is ''defensive'' now? I would've agreed to disagree had it not been for the attitude they were showing, and have done precisely that several times over EVEN when guys like you were going at me sideways. I even said I literally did not know I was allowed to approach the case in a different way, and had I simply been told that, everything would've been fine. I'm not stopping others from chiming in, ironic you're saying that to a guy who just got told off for posting ''too much'' (whatever that means) in the first place.

Try being more honest with your criticisms, please. Your attitudes stink and make you come off as cliquey. I'm not posting ''every other post'' for that matter, I'm posting LOGS which are kind of important to help people see what's possible. That's literally the post before you and the mod.
You're still fueling the issue while others tried to move on, and yes it does drag others back into it and inevitably causes people to lose their cool and pop off. Name calling is wrong regardless; I agree with you there and everyone needs to cool off about it, but getting defensive and turning the thread into a shouting match doesn't solve anything. If you have issues there, it's best to talk to those people or a mod privately about it (disclaimer: I'm not a mod).

EVEN when guys like you were going at me sideways
I'm not stopping others from chiming in
This also orchestrates my point. I'm not taking shots at you nor did I do so prior; the last time I posted was a week or so ago when I was trying to bring up the possibility of Snubbull being too low. That topic was drowned out entirely because of this countless arguing and it frankly killed my incentive to continue discussion on it.
 
egg, i generally think you've got the right idea with your tiering ideas, not maybe in exact terms but in principles generally yes. but you have been abrasive, even as you've countenanced it with your arguments and courteousness simultaneously. i know this because i've done exactly as you've done many times myself, and been on this side of the fence a handful of times too. fact of the matter is the well is poisoned against you as you currently are, the others in this thread perceive you as unpleasant to deal with even when you aren't being unpleasant because you haven't given them a reason to see otherwise. you're not incorrect either in your assessment of reacting to people only as they've reacted to you and escalating similarly. problem is, that doesnt matter. perception is reality and the perception of either side being a negative presence makes it impossible to see beyond that, that's human nature.

best course of action is to continue as you are, but stick more to the testing side. the back and forth with people is good in moderation but needs to be in moderation. the arguments with people don't ever lead to productivity and certainly aren't worth the effort it takes to fight them. again from more experience than one person should probably have.

let's focus on our own contributions for the next bit and i expect things will smooth out
Fair, I guess. That said, this all started when one person attacked my contributions as ''extremely dumb/stupid'', I simply fired back in kind (nothing more nor less), and the moderator then jumps on me instead of the other guy or even both. Like, I'm fine with dishing it out or not dishing it out, but the double standards are atrocious. You're right about the poisoned well part, though I'm not sure if there's something to cleanse it.

I wonder if you saw my argument about Quilava using Smokescreen to set up against bosses, which has been labeled ''inefficient'' even though it's completely doable, requires zero item spam (seriously, not a single one) as long as you have Fury Cutter. What are your thoughts?
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I think that any strategy that is reasonably accessible and proves consistent and in a reasonable time frame is fair game. An unconventional strategy holds value when it lets a Pokemon win a matchup it otherwise couldn't, at least where the opponent is notoriously difficult. Your Smokescreen strategy seems rather borderline. Rather than something straightforward as with Double Team on an unthreatening opponent your strategy also involves inconsistency in the sweeping portion with Fury Cutters accuracy and high number of hits accrued. This kind of strategy can work but the downside for failure is high without consistency on the second leg. Inefficient? No, but risky, likely riskier than an average player would be willing to try.
 

Its_A_Random

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I wonder if you saw my argument about Quilava using Smokescreen to set up against bosses, which has been labeled ''inefficient'' even though it's completely doable, requires zero item spam (seriously, not a single one) as long as you have Fury Cutter. What are your thoughts?
I don't have a horse in this race at all, but I will say that yes, Smokescreen can get the job done (though not reliably). However, the main reason the efficiency of Smokescreen is debatable (similar to Ralts with Double Team in the RSE thread) is not that it gets the job done, but whether or not it gets the job done quickly.

Basically, I'm investing turns in the hope that the opponent misses and gives me free turns to do what I need to do to sweep the opponent, whether that be setting up X-Items or whatever. If there is an alternative strategy with the same Pokémon that allows me to win the fight faster, then Smokescreen is not the most efficient strategy for that fight. Granted, it could be that it is the only way to win that fight with that particular Pokémon and this does happen (e.g. Double Team Ralts with Roxanne in RSE). But is it really that efficient if the Pokémon can solo the fight in 15-20 turns when you can bring your teammates into the equation (or using a different Pokémon instead) and win in about half the time? I don't know what you think, but it feels like a red flag to me (in that it's an "inefficient" solo).

Yes it can get the job done, but if it takes a long time to get it done, then it might not be the green flag (for a higher ranking) that it appears to be.
 
Fair about the risk. I just want to emphasize, however, this worked for me on four separate tries without any item support even being necessary and that this is literally one of the more challenging matchups in the game. Being able to essentially cheese this matchup I think is deserving of praise.

It could be better, but this is neither an optional matchup (IIRC) nor an easy one. There has never been a time I could beat Silver this easily, in fact.

Yes, you have your teammates, but wouldn't it be better to not need them at all (and at worst, have them as backup in case things fall through)?
 

DHR-107

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Orange Islands
Can't seem to do anything right, can I now?

Me: Suggests ways to keep up with the Crystal level curve far better.

Y'all: ''STAHP TELLING US TO OVERLEVEL ONE POKEMON!!!111'' (even though this also means you can literally avoid training that Pokemon for a fair while and spend the rest of your time and experience on other Pokemon in that time - also, I even conceded the point to end the chaos)

Overlevelling has never been a consideration for these lists. At most, like we said at the time, it can be worth a footnoot for a particular Pokemon. As others have said, Overlevelling almost any Pokemon by that much can easily push through a portion of the game. For a "relatively good" Pokemon (A/B tier) it can make the Pokemon preform MUCH better than it otherwise would. This is why we don't usually count it.

Me: Shows people it's possible to keep your Pokemon levels close to major bosses without solo running, candy spamming, or using fewer than 4 mons.

Y'all: ''STAHP TELLING NOVICES WHAT TO DO!!!11!'' (never mind the fact we're doing this to help ''novices'')

We do assume some knowledge of the games with these lists. Not everything, but most basic stuff

Me: Posts logs like Nova did and interacts with other posters like Celeb who respond to my assessments of Pokemon in ''brutally honest'' ways.

Y'all: ''STAHP SPAMMING THIS THREAD!!11!'' (never mind the fact I'm helping keep the thread alive, which should be a....good thing?!)

It's not spamming. The posts are relatively constructive, its just the sheer number. You have to let other people reply and post in the thread too. You can't just be the solo voice. Let the thread breath a little bit. You don't have to reply to every single post.

Me: Shows a viable strategy that worked FOUR TIMES OVER against the same opponent. Yes, you read that right. Also a strategy actively considered as part of the case for Ralts's ranking in the RSE tiering thread by posters or at least up for discussion. Gastly's attacks are iffy enough in accuracy that Double Team spam consistently works - works so well that Quilava needs zero item support to win in my experience, not even a Potion or Berry. Also note that I didn't even say this singular matchup made Quilava a high-tier mon, although saying this isn't efficient when it worked 4x over and allowed me to roll one of the toughest matchups over each time is just pretty...bruh. As I said before, time is only ONE resource among many and if you do have time to play a video game at all, you very likely can spend a minute setting up before hacking through Silver. Stop putting words in me.

Y'all: ''NOT EFFICIENT!!1''

It does work. But at the same time, three or four turns of spamming accuracy drops isn't hugely efficient. You win the fight, but those turns could have been spent killing something instead. I don't really like abusing accuracy mechanics at all, but that's just my preference. You're relying on pure RNG, which is bad imo. Its not reliable. 4/4 is a good hit ratio don't get me wrong, but it's still an RNG fest and probably lets you win a fight you shouldn't. IMO, that's bad. You're baking too many modifiers into the same fight with Smokescreen AND Fury Cutter.

Me: Has genuine fun playtesting these Pokemon, although I will admit not knowing that switch mode was okay earlier on...wasn't great.

Y'all: ''HAVE FUN DUDE! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!''

Of course you can have fun doing it. Why would people get involved at all if it wasn't fun to have the debate and stuff? The problem is you aren't really debating. You are actively stating your opinion, and then getting defensive when people don't agree with it. Or ignoring them entirely to keep pushing your narrative.

And then I have posters like Celeb, Turdterra, and Volt taking potshots at me directly or indirectly, insinuating I have vapor for brains or that me trying to see how a Pokemon does well against a major opponent without backup (after all, pretty sure needing backup is worse than not needing backup, especially when Pokemon who don't need backup exist...right?) is ''extremely stupid'', if not calling me a ''turd'' outright. Like only a handful of people on this thread have actually acted somewhat reasonably, including Random Passerby and Xator_Nova. Yet I'M the problem.

I'm not so sure what to say here. I don't really like a lot of the behaviour which has been shown in this thread. From a number of users. I never understood the whole backup thing and Solo'ing gyms. Whole point is you have a team. I don't see backup as a negative at all. I would most likely just not use a mon which has a high chance of failure at all against X opponent.

Take a look at yourselves. You are getting riled up by the fact I dare to disagree (and courteously at that, which is far more than what I can say for you). Even when I do things your way or try to - I didn't even know it was okay to switch to another teammate in one case, that was a genuine lack of knowledge on my part - y'all are more interested in screeching at me. That even a moderator is clearly taking sides is not a good look (and yes, you did, I haven't forgotten your earlier comment blaming me for the ''decline'' of this thread or whatever backward accusation you had).

Yep. I did take sides. It was fairly obvious to me who the problem was and I did warn you to stay away from the thread for a few days, which you entirely ignored. I could have been much harsher, but I wasn't, hoping to see a change in attitude across the board. As this reply shows, nothing has changed in that regard. You did cause a decline in the thread quality. People piling on was in response to this.


Edit
: The fact you're angry at me for POSTING in this thread is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. Normally a person should be happy that I'm contributing to discussion and helping keep a thread alive, as long as I'm doing it in a friendly way - which is what I've been doing - and even some of my detractors on this thread admitted I made some fair points (such as for Tauros, Miltank, and Staryu).

This thread would not have died without you posting in it for a day or two. That is just arrogant in the extreme to think it would have.
You want a play by play. Okay. Replies in Bold.

Yep, I take sides when people shit up something in my forum. I made it clear a number of times to a number of users that their behaviours were bad. I did single you out because you were the catalyst and you repeatedly ignored others. People are trying to tell you what the problem is but you won't listen to anyone. I gave you two warnings.

I am hoping this page puts a button in it with others putting in their 2 pence. Its midnight here and I've been replying to this post for a while.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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settled on and will run the following:

cyndaquil - starter
fire blast, thunderpunch, iron tail, fire punch or sunny day

oddish - ilex forest - vileplume
petal dance, moonlight, sleep powder, sludge bomb or toxic

poliwag - old rod route 30 - poliwrath
surf, ice punch, dynamicpunch, hypnosis

eevee - gift - espeon or umbreon
psychic or psybeam, bite, morning sun or moonlight, quick attack or hidden power

teddiursa - route 45
return, earthquake, thunderpunch or curse, rest

red gyarados
strength, whirlpool, waterfall, whatever


edit: pokemon gold btw
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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its now occurred to me that as I'm playing Gold i can't get stones, thus I'll be testing Poliwhirl and Gloom

Cyndaquil lv 15: One shot Pidgey, two shot Pidgeotto with Ember.


[/hide]

Levels are a bit high atm, presumably due to three Medium Slow xp group mons.

Quilava lx 18: Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat both. Very very losing to Croconaw though.

Poliwag lv 17: Hypnosis and three ater Guns takes down Gastly cleanly. Hypnosis and four does the same for Zubat. Croconow is roughly a 12hko with Water Gun so this is doable with Hypnosis, Scratch is a 3-4HKO in return, just can't ever miss a Hypnosis or you die. Gastly and Zubat can both be done without Hypnosis but not so cleanly. Decent overall.

Oddish lv 13: Capable of 1v1ing Gastly in a drawn out slugfest so long as you don't get unlucky with Spites ripping PP. Zubat is a no. Easily solos Croconaw with Absorb, ends a bit below half health at the three level disadvatage. Not too shabby.



Quilava lv 18: Four Embers, three kills. Obv level plays a role in that.

Poliwag lv 17: Three Water Guns are good for Metapod, two for Kakuna. Scyther is a 6HKO with Water Gun and you have Hypnosis, but you must hit your 2-3 Hypnosises or you die.

Oddish lv 14: Poisonpowder+Absorb takedown Metapod with little issue. Can 1v1 Kakuna but runs out of PP if Metapod is fought. Scyther is a nope.


No trainers north of Goldenrod, every other trainer defeated, some minor early game wilds with Cyndaquil, maybe worth one level at this point.

Quilava lv 20: 3HKOs Clefairy with Headbutt. 3HKOd by Miltank and not close to KOing back, but Smokescreen does enable other Pokemon to take Miltank down, in my case via Poisonpowder on Oddisht x.

Poliwag lv 20: Can 1v1 Clefairy with Hypnosis and Headbutt but falls quickly to Miltank. Can actually do heavy damage to Miltank with Hypnosis and repeated Water Guns, but a kill is unlikely.

Oddish lv 20: 1v1s Clefairy with Sleep Powder or Poisonpowder and Absorb but falls quickly to Miltank.


Cleared the trainers immediately West of Ecruteak and East of Mahogany before Rival and Morty.

Quilava lv 23: Four shots Haunter with Ember, two after Curse and a forced switch. Croconaw is a big nope. OHKOs Magnemite. 3HKOs Zubat so confusion can be annoying.

Gloom lv 23: *Can* beat Haunter even after a Cuse but not recommended, luck driven. Dumpsters Croconaw with or without status, 4HKO on Absorb, hardly anything in return. You'll run out of pp before beating Zubat. Wins vs Magnemite, 8HKO with Absorb and Sleep Powder to get you there. Losable with bad luck on confusion and paralysis and sleep misses. zz

Polwhirl lv 25: Surf 2HKOs Haunter, OHKO with Curse and you have Hypnosis if you want. 2HKOs Zubat. Headbutt isa 4HKO on Croconaw and it can't do much in return.

Eevee lv 25: Mud-slap 4HKOs Haunter, 2HKOs if Curse. Mud Slap also 2HKOs Magnemite. Headbutt OHKOs Zubat. Headbuttalso 3HKOs Croconaw so winnable with flinches or high health. Probably won't sweep due to accumulated damage, but very nice outing.



Quilava lv 25: Dig OHKOs Gastly and just missed the OHKO on Haunter. Also 2HKOs Gengar so you're dead to Hypnosis but fine vs anything else. Gave Quilava Dig cause nothing else needed it/could learn it.

Gloom lv 25: You can beat Gastly but can't damage fast enough to outpace Curse or Night Shade or Shadow Ball for anything else.

Polwhirl lv 25: Surf OHKOs Gastly, just misses the OHKO vs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. If it doesn't Hypnosis you then you can win with Hypnosis of your own first.

Eevee lv 25: Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly without Curse. 4HKOs haunter without Curse, 2HKOs with. Gengar slaps with HypnoEater.


Cleared out Union Cave and the other Surf routes up to Ecruteak at this point.
 
its now occurred to me that as I'm playing Gold i can't get stones, thus I'll be testing Poliwhirl and Gloom

Cyndaquil lv 15: One shot Pidgey, two shot Pidgeotto with Ember.


[/hide]

Levels are a bit high atm, presumably due to three Medium Slow xp group mons.

Quilava lx 18: Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat both. Very very losing to Croconaw though.

Poliwag lv 17: Hypnosis and three ater Guns takes down Gastly cleanly. Hypnosis and four does the same for Zubat. Croconow is roughly a 12hko with Water Gun so this is doable with Hypnosis, Scratch is a 3-4HKO in return, just can't ever miss a Hypnosis or you die. Gastly and Zubat can both be done without Hypnosis but not so cleanly. Decent overall.

Oddish lv 13: Capable of 1v1ing Gastly in a drawn out slugfest so long as you don't get unlucky with Spites ripping PP. Zubat is a no. Easily solos Croconaw with Absorb, ends a bit below half health at the three level disadvatage. Not too shabby.



Quilava lv 18: Four Embers, three kills. Obv level plays a role in that.

Poliwag lv 17: Three Water Guns are good for Metapod, two for Kakuna. Scyther is a 6HKO with Water Gun and you have Hypnosis, but you must hit your 2-3 Hypnosises or you die.

Oddish lv 14: Poisonpowder+Absorb takedown Metapod with little issue. Can 1v1 Kakuna but runs out of PP if Metapod is fought. Scyther is a nope.


No trainers north of Goldenrod, every other trainer defeated, some minor early game wilds with Cyndaquil, maybe worth one level at this point.

Quilava lv 20: 3HKOs Clefairy with Headbutt. 3HKOd by Miltank and not close to KOing back, but Smokescreen does enable other Pokemon to take Miltank down, in my case via Poisonpowder on Oddisht x.

Poliwag lv 20: Can 1v1 Clefairy with Hypnosis and Headbutt but falls quickly to Miltank. Can actually do heavy damage to Miltank with Hypnosis and repeated Water Guns, but a kill is unlikely.

Oddish lv 20: 1v1s Clefairy with Sleep Powder or Poisonpowder and Absorb but falls quickly to Miltank.


Cleared the trainers immediately West of Ecruteak and East of Mahogany before Rival and Morty.

Quilava lv 23: Four shots Haunter with Ember, two after Curse and a forced switch. Croconaw is a big nope. OHKOs Magnemite. 3HKOs Zubat so confusion can be annoying.

Gloom lv 23: *Can* beat Haunter even after a Cuse but not recommended, luck driven. Dumpsters Croconaw with or without status, 4HKO on Absorb, hardly anything in return. You'll run out of pp before beating Zubat. Wins vs Magnemite, 8HKO with Absorb and Sleep Powder to get you there. Losable with bad luck on confusion and paralysis and sleep misses. zz

Polwhirl lv 25: Surf 2HKOs Haunter, OHKO with Curse and you have Hypnosis if you want. 2HKOs Zubat. Headbutt isa 4HKO on Croconaw and it can't do much in return.

Eevee lv 25: Mud-slap 4HKOs Haunter, 2HKOs if Curse. Mud Slap also 2HKOs Magnemite. Headbutt OHKOs Zubat. Headbuttalso 3HKOs Croconaw so winnable with flinches or high health. Probably won't sweep due to accumulated damage, but very nice outing.



Quilava lv 25: Dig OHKOs Gastly and just missed the OHKO on Haunter. Also 2HKOs Gengar so you're dead to Hypnosis but fine vs anything else. Gave Quilava Dig cause nothing else needed it/could learn it.

Gloom lv 25: You can beat Gastly but can't damage fast enough to outpace Curse or Night Shade or Shadow Ball for anything else.

Polwhirl lv 25: Surf OHKOs Gastly, just misses the OHKO vs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. If it doesn't Hypnosis you then you can win with Hypnosis of your own first.

Eevee lv 25: Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly without Curse. 4HKOs haunter without Curse, 2HKOs with. Gengar slaps with HypnoEater.


Cleared out Union Cave and the other Surf routes up to Ecruteak at this point.
Are you haircutting on Eevee at all to boost happiness?
 
And here's log 3 and log 4. I'm having fun, apologies if I've been hogging this thread too much.

But first...about Snubbull.

She is VERY good at cleaning route stuff. From the moment I taught her Headbutt, she's been reliably crushing all sorts of stuff with a vengeance in two hits or fewer. She rapidly caught up to my other two teammates swiftly by just training within Goldenrod and Route 34 - she was L17 even before I went to battle the National Park or the Route 35 trainers. She is admittedly very slow, to the point it was not uncommon at all for her to go last in most of her earlier fights - also rather frail. So far, I really like her, though I need to be careful not to get her KOed like in my second ever battle involving her lol.

About to fight Whitney with L20 Phanpy (Teal), L20 Snubbull (Pinky), and L20 Quilava (Dayquil)!

I attempted to fight Whitney while fighting as few of her gym trainers as possible for my test, though on my actual run I fought all of them first, causing Quilava to level up to L21 within the gym and Phanpy to level up to L21 after destroying Clefairy.

Phanpy (L20): On my first try, Curlout killed both Clefairy (two hits) and Miltank (two hits) - no healing items, X-items, held items, or any such thing required. Miltank keeps using Rollout instead of Stomp. On my second try, Curlout killed Clefairy (two hits) but suddenly missed before Miltank - who used Rollout again. I then set up Curlout again, Miltank missed her Rollout, I hit with mine a few times and won. On my third try, I was about to set up Curlout, only for that stupid fairy to hit me with Blizzard (thankfully I survived and healed up with a Super Potion). I then attempted to use Curlout again, only to miss Rollout again on my second hit - Clefairy managed to Mimic it and started using Rollout herself. Panicking, I then used Rollout again instead of curling. Luckily I was able to destroy Clefairy with two hits before she could get going and still beat Miltank, who used Rollout again.

I'm amazed by how well Phanpy did at destroying one of the toughest gym leaders, even unevolved. Then again, it mostly makes sense - being female, resisting Miltank's own Rollout, having Defense Curl to simultaneously bulk up and power up Rollouts, and being able to fire off Rollouts herself all make her a very good Whitney check. I didn't even need the X-items I bought for the fight (X-Accuracy, which would've ensured Phanpy never misses Rollout) or the Quick Claw, though the Super Potion might be necessary. Very, very cool performance. Just be wary of freaky Metronome shenanigans and you should win. Attaching a Quick Claw, Gold Berry, etc. would make this an even safer fight, Rollout's accuracy can be annoying both for you and Whitney.

Verdict? Phanpy GG, A-Tier for sure. Not S-Tier due to needing Rollout, and as the Blizzard example demonstrates, Clefairy might potentially be able to beat or screw you over (or at least force you to switch and thereby rely on comrades. However, the fact Phanpy survived the Blizzard and could then clear the fight as needed with Curlout after some quick healing - combined with Miltank's terrible AI and resisted Rollout - means you have a very reliable matchup and at best may need some quick healing and/or a switch. That, and she also trivializes one of the toughest bosses.

Quilava (L20): On my first try, I set up with Smokescreen on Clefairy to +6, albeit Doubleslaps put Quilava in the yellow zone, requiring me to heal up with a Super Potion. I believe she Growled at me too. I took her down with a 5-hit Fury Cutter, which 2HKOed Miltank who hit me on her first turn of Rollout for a fair chunk of damage but missed the second time. I won. On my second try, I set up Smokescreen to +6 without her being able to connect a single hit, be it Metronome (which summoned Softboiled at full HP and then Growl which missed) or Doubleslap. Scarily enough, she copied my Smokescreen with Mimic but failed to ever land it herself lol. I then hacked her down with Fury Cutter comfortably, tanking a Doubleslap that hit and did little damage. Out came the fat cow, who IMMEDIATELY went to the red with Fury Cutter...only to Stomp me to the yellow.

I then healed with a Super Potion pronto, not wanting to take any chance. She then picked...Milk Drink, bringing her to green. I used Ember, doing little damage while she clicked Rollout again. She then outsped me and hit me twice with Rollout, KOing me for sure :(

On my third try, I deployed Smokescreen x3, yet this time Clefairy managed to hit me every time with Doubleslap and nearly KO me by the end of it. I healed up with a Super Potion...and she strikes again. Thankfully I land three more without her Doubleslapping me the first two times and Metronome picks that weird PP-affecting attack on the third turn. I kill Clefairy and out comes Miltank, who eats a HEAVY hit...only to kill me by spamming Rollout again. :( Yeah, suffice to say that while Quilava CAN win, it's very unlikely and she does the worst of the three for sure. You need luck, a Gold Berry, or an X-Speed to win - and to be safe, a Super Potion might be nice too.

Verdict? C-Tier. Quilava can win, but he needs a fair amount of support and/or luck to make it happen, plus the Fury Cutter TM (though Rollout could do as well or better). Luckily, any two of the aforementioned items (X-Speed and a potent healing item) should be able to secure you the win.

Snubbull (L20): Hoo boy. Snubbull can take Clefairy and Miltank out, but it requires a Super Potion and a bit of luck. On one try, I flinched Clefairy (who hit me with I believe a weak Octazooka) with Headbutt after Scary Facing her and KOed her with a second Headbutt. Miltank's Rollout was weakened with Charm, slowed down with two Scary Faces (I also healed with a Super Potion afterward), she missed, and then I Headstomped her.

Another time, I beat Clef with Scary Face + two non-flinch Headbutts (she only Doubleslapped with three weak hits). The cow then came out to Rollout me but...missed, while I Charmed her. She then tried to Rollout me, doing a tiny amount of damage this time while I Scary Faced. Her next hit...missed (lol), and I Scary Faced a second time. I healed up with a Super Potion, got a critical hit and a flinch in one hit (and lost less than 20 HP to Stomp). I Headbutted, this time with the speed advantage, and she used Rollout only to miss. I Headbutted again...and won.

On my third try, I went with the Scary Headbutt strategy again, only this time she brought down to the yellow with two rounds of Doubleslap (I think they were both three or four-hit rounds). I healed up immediately, she Doubleslapped again for little damage, and I crushed her with Headbutt. Out came the cow, who got Charmed while using Rollout and then Scary Faced while continuing her roll. Then she critted and KOed me with her next Rollout hit. Suffice to say, Snubbull can win in this gym, but she needs at least one Super Potion and strategy with her two stat-reduction moves as opposed to brute force. It's very much doable, however it is luck dependent due to Clefairy being all about the RNG and Miltank being able to destroy the frail Snubbull with a critical hit at any time but also having a bad tendency to spam and miss Rollout.

Verdict? Eh, hard to say lol. I would say C sounds fine, given that she does need a Super Potion and some strategy and perhaps luck with her moves to win - and even all of that can fail if Miltank flinches, Attracts (my Snubbull was a girl so I didn't have to worry about that), or hits you critically.

Granbull (L25): Can't solo the Rival without a fair amount of medical support. Haunter can cut your HP. If you beat Haunter, Magnemite can confuse you and live a Headbutt. If you beat them, Croconaw outspeeds and can flinch with Bite or hurt with Rage and will likely win unless you heal up. C-Tier for sure - a few Super Potions and/or a confusion healing item will be needed for Granbull to do well here.

Donphan (L25): Keep getting paralyzed and hurt by Haunter, then dying to Croconaw's Water Gun while stuck in Rollout. Magnemite can also be annoying with Supersonic and can whittle you down with Sonicboom. Happened at least twice., However, if you can throw in an X-Speed early on, set up Curlout, and/or hold a Przcureberry, you can solo. I'd say C-Tier.

Quilava (L25): First try, used Dig to beat Haunter - got a critical hit and KOed him, after which I defeated Croconaw with Dig spam and x2 Super Potions before Embering everyone else to death. Croconaw bizarrely alternated between Water Gun and Rage. Second try, drove him into the red - and he retaliated with Lick. He kept spamming Lick but thankfully didn't paralyze me one of five times or so while I got Fury Cutter ready and cut him as well as the incoming Croconaw down (the latter one-shotted). Second try, Haunter survived Dig again only to mess me up, after which I went down to a Croconaw Water Gun crit. Third try was the same as the second try. Don't try to solo the rival with Quilava, you cannot (reliably anyway).

I would say C-Tier, honestly. You can solo everyone else pretty much though - Magnemite, Haunter, and Zubat all fold to Dig/Ember pretty fast. You can't even up Fury Cutter here, however, and you will need a different teammate to pick off Croconaw.

Now for Morty. I let the Pokemon fighting him hold a Mint Berry. One can be obtained literally west of Ecruteak City, the western route I mean.

Granbull (L25, just shy of L26): First try, bit the Gastly for an OHKO, bit the Haunter for a 2HKO, neither could Hypnotize me. Gengar got 3HKOed by Bite after eating a Scary Face and I broke out of Hypnosis thanks to the held Mint Berry. Haunter got critted instantly. However, I needed a Super Potion or two. Second try, Gastly went down the same way and Haunter hypnotized me on his first try - I woke up and brought him to the yellow by Bite. Then he put me to sleep again, and I was screwed due to not having any other sleep hold items.

Third try, took Gastly down as usual and Haunter missed two shots of Hypnosis, going down like a punk. Gengar missed his first Hypnosis, allowing me to Scary Face and Bite him. I needed immediate healing after that as he trapped me with Mean Look, so I healed. Thankfully Gengar missed Hypnosis two more times, allowing me to Bite my way to victory. I then faced Haunter who used Mean Look and Mimic (the latter for Bite) and beat him down with two Bites.

It's clear Granbull can win this matchup, though you definitely need one Super Potion. Holding a Mint Berry is great and should be enough for you usually though for sleep, though having an Awakening as well is advisable given that 'Bull is slow and liable to being outsped.

I leveled up to L26 when beating the Gastly and L27 when beating the Gengar. Granbull would be B-Tier on balance, everything taken together.

Quilava (L26): First try? Crushed Gastly with Dig. One-shotted Haunter with Dig, no critical hits (not bad, again, for a low Attack IV Quilava). Outpaced Gengar, broke out of Hypnosis with held Mint Berry, and 2HKOed with Dig. The other Haunter barely lived my Dig and fell to Ember.

Second try? Crushed Gastly like before, but Haunter survived VERY BARELY and left me a parting shot before going down. Shockingly, I only 3HKOed Gengar (who IIRC outsped me once somehow) this time and fell to passive damage because I didn't use a Super Potion. Not...heartening.

Third try? Gastly went down as usual, Haunter got critted by Dig thankfully. Gengar got outsped each time, 3HKOed by Dig, and I broke out of Hypnosis using the Mint Berry. Second Haunter got critted with Dig.

Overall, Quilava is actually solid in this gym - he actually does the best of the trio and could solo outright with Super Potion support (which I just didn't give to him for some reason on my second try, I should have not that he needed it the first or third time) as well as the held Mint Berry.

Verdict? A-Tier, not S because Quilava wins the plurality of matchups without a Super Potion and can win even those with one and also because Dig is a competitive TM. I just had no one else to use it on. You might want a Super Potion, but one should be enough.

Donphan (L25): First try, I set up Defense Curl only to get hit by Spite, which did nothing. I then got paralyzed by Lick but was able to wipe Gastly out with Rollout. Haunter came in, saw (Mean Looked) me, and got conquered. Gengar came in, saw (Mean Looked) me, and got conquered. Haunter came in and Night Shaded me while paralysis finally got the better of me. I brought Haunter to yellow with a normal Rollout but missed on the second turn due to paralysis, getting brought to yellow myself by a second Night Shade. I immediately healed up with the Super Potion. After missing Rollout a few more times due to getting paralyzed and getting Night Shaded to red, I managed to connect Rollout again and win.

Second try, got paralyzed by Gastly's first Lick and took a second Lick but crushed him with Curlout. Haunter came in to Night Shade me only to eat a Rollout and faint. In came the other Haunter who used Mean Look and got rolled over. Gengar came in, Mean Looked me AGAIN (lol), and fainted.

Third try, Gastly weakened me a bit while I set up Curlout and fired off a Lick, though thankfully it didn't paralyze this time. Haunter fired off a Night Shade and fainted. Gengar Mean Looked me and fell (seriously, what is with the hilariously bad AI?). Haunter came in to Mean Look me, but I (finally) missed Rollout and my HP fell to yellow. I healed up but got brought back down to yellow again by Night Shade and passive damage. Healed up again and used Rollout to bring Haunter to the yellow only to get weakened by Night Shade and passive damage again and for me to get KOed this time. Morty, suffice to say, while a more favorable matchup for Donphan than not, isn't a guaranteed or necessarily safe matchup.

Verdict? C-Tier, which I think is fair for a Pokemon that wins roughly 2/3 times, needs some healing support, a switch out, and needs Rollout.

Average Rankings:

Quilava - Seems to be a B-Tier mon for now. Has some good if not great matchups (Bugsy, Morty, and Rival 2) and has some fairly middling to not great ones (Falkner, Rival 3 and Whitney).

Donphan - Was solid against Falkner and Whitney, cannot beat Bugsy, can beat Bugsy 3 reliably, cannot reliably beat Rival 3, and again can beat Morty but item support needed. That's three not so good matchups and three decent matchups, so I'd say Donphan would be middling like Quilava is - arguably a little worse given that Quilava really has only one bad matchup thus far while Donphan has two. On the other hand, being able to crush one of the toughest Gym Leaders pretty reliably means that while I'd say no higher than B, I'd say no lower either. B-Tier is good.

Granbull - Floats between B and C, though leaning in favor of B personally. One okay matchup that you should win with a few items on hand (Morty), one matchup that's very luck dependent but I at least did better than not on (Whitney), and one unfortunate matchup that you can still win with items (Rival 3). Also crushes route stuff like nobody's business and caught up quickly with training, which further solidifies the ranking. GSC are great games to be Normal-typed in.
 
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