GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

Training only three Pokemon at the time (I have yet to pick up Horsea/Seadra, who sadly starts at a maximum level of L24), I can confirm that a three-Pokemon team has an easy ride in Johto. I kinda wonder whether this was intentional on Game Freak's part, maybe they expected us to catch the other three from Kanto instead (and Kanto's levels are pretty low, making it somewhat believable the new mons could catch up if through switch training)?

Interestingly, even the Nintendo-approved strategy guide seems to endorse a team size of 4 (forgot if it was for Johto or the entire game).

Are there digital versions of the old guides available?
 
Are there digital versions of the old guides available?
I don't think so, last I checked. :(

The video I shared, however, does go into the guide quite a bit and what it has (it covers up to Red btw, although the post-game section is separate).

Edit: I think Spearow earlier in the game is being overhyped. They're fair against Bugsy and at killing all sorts of NPC stuff but that's...it? They don't even evolve relatively quickly like Pidgey does, you could believably have a Pidgeotto before you fight the rival for instance without excess grinding, and that would be an amazing time to have one given how tough Rival 2 is for your starter and most other mons. You already get free vitamins and can buy a load of them before the E4 if you want to correct any stat shortfalls for the outsider Spearow and the latter doesn't only grow quickly but also helps your entire team do so too. They're no less capable of one-shotting and two-shotting stuff upon evolution and in general, all considered.

The one thing I will admit is that you could likely do more damage with Return earlier, though I had no problems getting a Return strong enough to two-shot Chuck's Poliwrath with my outsider Fearow (a 4-mon team) in previous playthroughs. I always imagined that the boosted EXP was what made Spearow S-Tier, and I'd honestly even argue whether any version of Spearow belongs that high up at all given that they have a movepool problem that Pidgey next door does not have due to actually getting Wing Attack in the early L30s - in addition to Pidgey also benefiting from a faster evolution at a time when it might be critical but at the cost of a much later evolution into someone with actually reasonable stats for the endgame (Pidgeot at L36 is kinda sad when you're in Johto). On the other hand, this might require testing.

Also, thoughts about using the Daycare to train Pokemon? I haven't gotten Horsea yet, but I did want to test how good it can be as a supplement.
 
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I got some choice words for Whitney, but I'll spare you them and leave you with the logs instead.

Tried resetting the clock for Return. No bueno. None of my mons got enough happiness. These hoes ain't loyal.

Clearing Whitney's trainers before doing the National Park.

One of her trainers has a Lv. 9 Sentret.
Whitney's Miltank is Lv. 20.

Why? Just... Why? :facepalm:

Got 10k with all the other trainers I didn't beat on R34, the Underground and the R35 trainers.

Skipping the Nat. Park trainers for this one. Stocking up on Fresh Water. 25 bottles for the road.

Time to face the Mad Cow.

Attempt 1 - Spearow vs. Clefairy. Swift is a 3HKO. Clefairy landed 5 "Double"-Slaps, one of them being a Crit. 21/49 HP left.

This Gym is in Vegas and Whitney is the dealer.
My last Berry will save me from resetting against Clefairy, but I don't see Spearow beating Miltank.

Oh God it got Mimic. Snubbull won't like this.

31/49 HP Spearow vs Miltank. I wonder what'll happen...

Crit Stomp happened. Reset time.


Attempt 2 - Clefairy only hit twice with Double-Slap. Spearow easily dispatched it.

Just as easily as Miltank rolled over Spearow. 13 dmg on Rollout. Just absolutely no way that a sweep happens here, unless I'm on the wrong end of it.


Attempt 3 - Clefairy outspeeds Snubbull. Used Metrollnome, but I got lucky. It called Conversion 2.

Snubbull's Headbutt just does an outrageous amount of damage. 60% on it.

Miltank's Stomp also does a chunk of damage, 26 HP. Yikes. Charm will soften it, but I will need a Fresh Water right now.

Headbutt is a 4HKO. This doesn't look good at all. The Cow started rolling. 5 dmg.

The plan is to use Scary Face and pray to flinch in time. This is not a good matchup.

It outspeeds Bull at -2. RIP and Reset.

Attempt 4 - Quilava outspeeds Clefairy. Of course Clef slipped in a Crit Slap.

32/55 HP going into Miltank. I expect nothing, let's see if I still get disappointed.

Miltank outspeeds. 16 dmg with Rollout. That's a 3HKO.

*Looks at Headbutt damage.*

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And SOMEHOW you still find a way to disappoint me, Quilava.

Attempt 5 - I realized I forgot to teach Dig to Wooper. Oops.
Let's see how that plays out.

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Not well. Not well at all.

Oh hey, Metronome called Rollout. Mud-Slap would help, but it did 2 damage, so I'mma let it rock.

Wooper is unironically my best bet against Miltank, so I hope this works.


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No. Just... No.

Insult to injury too. It flinched, so I didn't even get the Headbutt damage calc.

Back to National Park it is.

Wooper got me the Return TM after the Nat. Park trainer grind.

Spearow getting closer to it's final form, but can it get the job done? Let's find out.

Attempt 1 - Snubbull vs Clefairy.
Snubbull handles it with the greatest of ease.

Spearow vs. Miltank.
Return's damage must be seen to be believed.
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Swift is a 5HKO. Just impossible to beat the Tank.


Attempt 2 - Wooper vs Clefairy.
Accidentally picked Wooper instead of Spearow. Gonna make it work tho.

Dig is a 3HKO on Clef. Wooper just doesn't have enough firepower.

Crit on 2nd Dig. No damage taken. Might as well try it.

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Not gonna work. 30% on a crit. Yikes.

Wooper got hit by Attract. That's gonna be annoying... And it was. Crit Rollouts, Stomp... This definitely didn't work out. Dig to stop Rollout is pretty important tho.


Attempt 3 - Spearow 3HKO'd Clefairy. No damage, Mimic + a bad Metronome roll. Ain't my problem.

Snubbull and Wooper vs Miltank.
The strat is simple. Debuff with Snubbull. Charm on Turn 1. If Miltank rolls, switch to Wooper and Dig.

Sadly, my simple strat simply didn't work.

Wooper just can't hit hard enough. Let's see if just going unga with Snubbull does.


Attempt 4 -
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Close, but no cigar. 4 Headbutts didn't do the trick. Could it be a bad roll? One Charm ain't enough to keep Rollout in check.


Attempt 5 - Quilava will get a brand new chance to make me want to throw it in the box again. Gonna teach it Rollout. It's the only reasonable chance it got against Miltank.

Started off with 2 Headbutts. I needed those to soften Clefairy and leave the good rolls for Miltank.

Wrapped it up on the 2nd Rollout.

36/57HP remaining. Should've given it the Berry, but them's the breaks. Do or die now. Here comes the Tank.

Pokemon - Crystal Version (UE) (V1.1) [C][!]_1612660336999.png

... Aaand of course.

So now I'm on a tricky situation. I need the headbutts to whack Clefairy quickly before it can do too much damage and leave me on the range for a Tank KO on the 2nd Roll.
I also absolutely can't let it Mimic Rollout.

On the other hand, Lava's 3rd Roll did like, 30%. This might be possible, but this is going to be very rough.

Gonna give it the Berry and try again.

Attempt 5.1 - Quilava beat Clefairy.
33/57 HP remaining. 3rd Rollout turn.

Let's rumble.

Miltank Rolls on Turn 1. Down to 17, Berry kicks in, back to 27, 16 damage on the first roll. I'm dead next turn.

The only chance of a Quilava win is on a 5th roll with more than 16HP at the very least. Crit or Stomp means instant death.

Let's see if Quilava can pull it off.


Attempt 5.2 - Aaaaand Clefairy rolled a Dragon Rage. This is why I don't gamble.


Attempt 5.3 - Headbutt + 3 Rolls took Clef down. Took a crit Ice Beam and 2 hits of a Double-Slap in the process. Neat.

37/57 HP vs Miltank. This is very much possible.

She started with a Rollout. 17 dmg. 30HP left post-Berry but...

It wasn't enough. 4th roll did 65%.
It. Must. Be. The. 5th.


Attempt 5.4
- Rollout from the jump. Quilava, take the wheel...

Clefairy Mimic'd Rollout. Uh-oh.

But it was for naught. Rollout is a 3HKO.
48HP left. Quilava must tank 2 rollouts.

Tank in...

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Well, that was awkward.

Stomp does 23 damage. Now that's a lotta damage! It's also a 3HKO no matter what.

Flinch, Berry heal, repeat.

Headbutt does an embarrassing amount of damage.

And the third turn kicks in with Quilava getting kicked out by Stomp.


Attempt 5.5 - Let's roll out. :psysly:
31/57 after Clefairy, still on 4th roll.

Tank still 2HKOs if it doesn't miss Rollout.
So it's a situation where both sides cleanly 2HKO, but Quilava is slower.

This is a bad matchup. No frills about it.

Metrollnome can easily cut your rolls short. Double-Slap can and will constantly put you in 2HKO range for Tank's rolls. Mimic copying Rollout also puts you in a bad spot, Quilava itself can miss. Miltank gets a guaranteed 3HKO with either Rollout or Stomp.

All of these are very easy ways to cut off a Rollout sweep and they can overlap and will happen constantly and consistently.


Attempt 6 - Spearow dispatched Clefairy.

Snubbull vs Miltank.



I lead off with Charm, Miltank with Attract. This is all very cute, but doesn't make for an entertaining battle. Especially since I'm using Charm again.

-2 Stomp did 15 damage.
-4 Rollout did 3.

Time to spam Headbutt... And Attract got in the way. This is bad.

It gets worse. Crit 3rd Roll quickly sent Snubbull all the way out of the Gym.

*sigh*... Reset. Again.

Attempt 7 - Metrollnome called Dizzy Punch and then Double-Edge. Double KO. Yet another reset.

Attempt 8 - Back to the plan of Charm Snubbull + Dig Wooper.

Getting 2 Charms off was the secret. Tank is too fast even at -2. Forget about Scary Face. Charm and Dig out the Rolls.

Not efficient at all, so here's the TL;DR version for everyone.

This was the first matchup where Spearow doesn't feel like it got Gorilla Tactics. You can't just bulldoze your way through Miltank, matter of fact, you don't stand a chance against it.

Wooper is just too weak. Dig barely handles Clefairy. On the defensive end though, resisting Rollout and being able to stop rolls with Dig is very useful, but you kill all your momentum to do it. Wooper just can't do any semblance of real damage to Miltank and Attract is twice as crippling to it because of Dig.

Quilava just cannot do it. The only way it can take down Miltank is on the 5th roll of a Rollout. Clefairy will get in the way. Besides all the possible ways for it to stop your rolls and/or leave you in 2HKO range, it is 3HKO'd by Rollout. The 4th roll is not enough for Miltank.

Snubbull somehow bailed me out and disappointed me at the same time.
Charm is super-important for this battle, but Scary Face is much more important long-term. Bite is a must for Morty, and Headbutt is imperative.

Here's the thing. -2 Atk Miltank still hits really hard, and -2 Speed Miltank still outspeeds Bull.

This. Is. Rough. If Bull had Dig, maybe it would've been able to dodge and debuff by itself and secure the 1v1. It didn't. Wooper needs it more. Even so, it'd need a Fresh Water.
MVP of the battle, but it wasn't a hard bar to clear with 3 mons flat out losing to Miltank.
 
Also, thoughts about using the Daycare to train Pokemon? I haven't gotten Horsea yet, but I did want to test how good it can be as a supplement.
I haven't played gsc yet but thought I'd give my two cents. The way I see it there's two ways to use the day care, put a weak mon in there and play the game like normal until it's ready to evolve/get a good stab/whatever. Or you can put an underleveled team member in and run around doing nothing until it catches up to the rest of your team.

In efficient runs I have an issue with both of these methods. For the first one, I don't think you move around enough between gyms and dungeons to make the day care mon get enough exp to keep up with your team that's constantly fighting trainers. I also don't think it's good for testing mons, since if something's in the day care for half the game then we effectively only have half the matchup data as we would if the mon was kept in the party. I will note that this requires testing, as I said I haven't played gsc, so if the steps do work out that taking an optimal route also means the day care mon gets plenty of exp, then great, but I don't believe that's the case due to how slow the exp gain is. For the second method of using it to catch up something underleveled while you run around, it's basically the exact same as grinding on wild pokemon except you don't get EV's. Since grinding is usually frowned upon in these lists I see no reason why needing an excessive amount of daycare time wouldn't be as well.
 
Granbull can't use Dig.

I haven't played gsc yet but thought I'd give my two cents. The way I see it there's two ways to use the day care, put a weak mon in there and play the game like normal until it's ready to evolve/get a good stab/whatever. Or you can put an underleveled team member in and run around doing nothing until it catches up to the rest of your team.

In efficient runs I have an issue with both of these methods. For the first one, I don't think you move around enough between gyms and dungeons to make the day care mon get enough exp to keep up with your team that's constantly fighting trainers. I also don't think it's good for testing mons, since if something's in the day care for half the game then we effectively only have half the matchup data as we would if the mon was kept in the party. I will note that this requires testing, as I said I haven't played gsc, so if the steps do work out that taking an optimal route also means the day care mon gets plenty of exp, then great, but I don't believe that's the case due to how slow the exp gain is. For the second method of using it to catch up something underleveled while you run around, it's basically the exact same as grinding on wild pokemon except you don't get EV's. Since grinding is usually frowned upon in these lists I see no reason why needing an excessive amount of daycare time wouldn't be as well.
I'm thinking of seeing if a five-mon team can work in Johto, four being in the party and one being in the Daycare until later in the game.

Thoughts?
 
I think if you only have 3 Pokemon at that point you're able to evolve Wooper and beat Whitney with Quagsire's Rollout.

I'm thinking of seeing if a five-mon team can work in Johto, four being in the party and one being in the Daycare until later in the game.

Thoughts?
I see daycare leveling the same as grinding against wild pokemon but if you want to try this I think Steelix would benefit the most. After Morty Onix falls off hard but gets a boost later in the game when it evolves.
 
I'm thinking of seeing if a five-mon team can work in Johto, four being in the party and one being in the Daycare until later in the game.

Thoughts?
Don't know enough to say, seems like it depends on how much exp it would get throughout the game. If it manages to get to something like level 55 by the time you've beaten every gym (without wasting time by running in circles) then it seems like a good get out of jail free card for lategame. If it's only level 30 or something then I would rather just have all 5 mons on my team and maybe fight some wilds to make up the difference later on.
 
Granbull can't use Dig.
...

And yet Wooper can learn Ice Punch. Make it make sense Game Freak, wtf!? :psyangry:

I think if you only have 3 Pokemon at that point you're able to evolve Wooper and beat Whitney with Quagsire's Rollout.



I see daycare leveling the same as grinding against wild pokemon but if you want to try this I think Steelix would benefit the most. After Morty Onix falls off hard but gets a boost later in the game when it evolves.
Depends a lot on the mon.

Experience groups were a mistake. 2 of my mons aren't Medium-Slow and this really is getting in the way imo. A 3 mon team absolutely should overlevel Whitney or at least be on par.

As for the day-care idea... I don't see it working. DC can't pump exp fast enough to keep up.

It is also completely useless for testing purposes since you're not actually using a mon, so we don't know squat about their performance and this just defeats the whole purpose.

If you wanna drop a random mook like Togepi just out of curiosity though, be my guest I guess. :mehowth:
 
I think if you only have 3 Pokemon at that point you're able to evolve Wooper and beat Whitney with Quagsire's Rollout.



I see daycare leveling the same as grinding against wild pokemon but if you want to try this I think Steelix would benefit the most. After Morty Onix falls off hard but gets a boost later in the game when it evolves.
I disagree, given that daycare leveling does not compromise your teammates or time in the same way grinding does. I unfortunately can't evolve Onix.

Time for another log. Just caught L20 Seadra from Whirlpool Islands, specifically the cave where you find Lugia. It didn't take a lot of Surfing to find one, though I had a Super Repel active and a L20 Chinchou in the driver's seat as bait and for HM use. Seadra got caught easily, and quickly caught up to my team by beating up trainers in and around the Olivine Lighthouse, Mt. Mortar, and the Olivine-Cianwood sea route (minus Eusine).

Seadra so far seems to have decent defense, solid speed, and pretty high Special Attack that allows him to strike hard with rain-boosted Surfs and even 3HKO-2HKO underleveled resist using that and/or Icy Wind. Me likey! Also did some quick traveling to pick up items and get saved money.

Maru...

Granbull (L32): Tanked Primeape's Karate Chop while in the green and crushed with one Return. Poliwrath goes down to two, trying to Dynamicpunch me twice but failing. Both outpace Granbull but I won. Second try went the exact same but Primeape used Leer instead. Third try went the same as the first one. Dynamicpunch's accuracy is...bad, to put it mildly. I'd say Granbull has a very real chance of beating Chuck, according to calcs - at WORST you might need a couple of Hyper Potions and a held Bitter Berry (although I needed none of these), even Poliwrath's Dynamicpunch fails to OHKO according to calcs. A-Tier, shockingly - B-Tier at absolute minimum in spite of the elemental mismatch.

Donphan (L32): Set up Curlout on Primeape while tanking his Fury Swipes and/or Karate Chops, floored him and Poliwrath in quick succession. Outspeeds Poli, by the way. This happened on all three tries. Easy A-Tier. Also, yes, Donphan can live a Surf according to calcs.

Quilava (L32): 2HKOs Primeape with Flame Wheel, survives in the green with a non-crit Karate Chop. Primeape's tendency to Leer in the beginning may give you the opportunity to take him out with any knowledge. Tried to set up Smokescreen on Poliwrath only to be Dynamicpunched through on my first try :( Second try went almost the same as my first try except Primeape used Leer this time, allowing me to curbstomp him. Third try, tried to set up a Fury Cutter rampage only for Poliwrath to tank the final hit while still in the green and KO me with Dynamicpunch :(

D-Tier, I should say, like Phanpy was in Bugsy. Primeape gets more or less trivialized but Poliwrath seemingly trivializes YOU.

Seadra (L31): OHKOs Primeape with Rain Surf, 3HKOs Poliwrath with it. Poliwrath misses Dynamicpunch and Hypnosis while Primeape does pitiful damage with Karate Chop or uselessly Leers. Second try went the same way except Poliwrath this time hits Hypnosis, but I heal with a Mint Berry from the bag, and goes down to a final non-rain-boosted Surf after being hit by two rain-boosted ones. Third try went the same way as the second try except Poliwrath uses Mind Reader before Hypnosis only to lose.

A-Tier at minimum, very impressive performance and that too from a new Pokemon.

Maru...

After beating Chuck, I used Fly to complete the Union Cave segments that had higher-leveled trainers in them. I also had enough money at this point to buy the Fire Blast TM, so I did precisely that. I don't plan to use it against Jasmine though. I think Flame Wheel should be good enough.

My Pokemon were L33-L34 by the end of it, and would have all reached L35 (level of Jasmine's Steelix).

Seadra (L33): Surf one-shotted both her Magnemite in quick succession and Steelix too.. No Rain needed. Second try went the same way. Third try, ditto. S-Tier matchup, complete joke.

Donphan (L33): Equipped with Bitter Berry in case of Confusion shenanigans. Set up Curlout successfully on the first Magnemite while tanking Sonicbooms (no Supersonic thankfully) and rolled both Magnemites over before bringing Steelix to the yellow with the final hit and then tanking Iron Tail with little damage. I then healed up 50 HP with a Super Potion (unfortunately Jasmine also chose to heal Steelix then with Hyper Potion), then used Headbutt three times and flinched three times while doing very little damage. From there it became a battle of attrition and I found myself healing up with a Hyper Potion again, though I managed to defeat Steelix - who at this point was at nearly 50% HP - with another Curlout.

Second matchup begun more or less the same way but Magnemite decided to hit me with Supersonic twice during Curlout - the first one was stopped by the Bitter Berry, but the second one stopped my sweep. I still did enough damage to KO with Headbutt and broke out of confusion on the same turn...only to be brought face-to-face with Steelix instead of the second Magnemite. It took five hits of Curlout to take Steelix out, but I got brought to the red HP zone by Iron Tails and the prior damage caused. Then the other Magnemite came in and engaged in more confusion shenanigans, screwing me over and forcing me to heal once, maybe twice. I then decided to spam Headbutt as I thought it's safer. The first hit flinched and the second hit brought him to yellow but I got confused AGAIN by that annoying magnet...thankfully the third hit still KOed him.

Third matchup? Took out the first Magnemite after shrugging off Supersonic once with Bitter Berry, they missed Supersonic the next two times (I also missed my first Curlout, pushing me to set up again). Magnemite 2 got one-shotted. Missed Steelix completely, though thankfully he missed me too with Iron Tail. I heal with a Super Potion (60/108 HP) and set up Curlout again, pulverizing Steelix but while falling into the yellow myself and taking a few Iron Tails (one of which missed) - though even with a defense drop they failed to KO me through like two Defense Curls lol.

Completely winnable matchup, just make sure you have one (maybe two) Hyper Potions and the Bitter Berry or perhaps another confusion curing item. Of course you need Curlout, both to tank Iron Tails and power through more easily with Rollout. However, Donphan won so reliably it's almost timpossible for me to call this anything other than an A matchup, maybe a B matchup if we're pushing it.

Granbull (L34): Return 2HKOs Magnemite, who paralyzes me first turn with Thunder Wave and hits me second with Thunderbolt (which I tank and stay in the green after) only to faint to a second Return. Magnemite 2 casts Supersonic, Bitter Berry breaks me out, but I stay paralyzed and do no damage that turn. Second turn, they miss with Supersonic as I bring him to yellow with Return. Third turn, I get confused by Supersonic but deliver the final blow with Return. Steelix appears and I heal up with Przcureberry, he strikes with Iron Tail and misses. I cast Charm, forgetting I'm confused, but it hits and I go first. I cast Charm again, but do self-damage and take an Iron Tail for a small amount of damage, entering the yellow now. I heal with a Hyper Potion. I break out of Confusion and fall to yellow again around the same time while taking a second Iron Tail and firing off Charm.

Iron Tail misses twice, and I do damage with Return (though very little). Iron Tail hits me but does little damage. I bring Steelix to yellow with more Returns but get brought back to yellow myself, needing healing with a Super Potion. Jasmine then decides to use a Hyper Potion. :( I continue wailing away with Return and use a second (third?) Super Potion - I should've carried more of the Hyper variant - Steelix gets brought back down to yellow with a few Returns and then to red with a surprise critical hit, while suddenly firing off ROCK THROWS. I win.

Not liking my previous matchup in spite of the win (I would've honestly won if I had more Super/Hyper Potions though, it was just crazy slow and risky to the point a critical hit at the wrong time could've defeated me - in other words, very clearly inefficient), I decide to teach Dynamicpunch to Granbull - I had forgotten I carried the TM lol. I throw Scary Face out, Charm is actually pretty dope so it stays.

Second try, Magnemite gets 2HKOed by Return, throwing out a Thunderbolt which does some damage but keeps me in the green. Magnemite 2 eats a heavy hit from Return, going to red, but brings me to yellow and paralyzes me in one hit with Thunderbolt. I heal with the Hyper Potion, eating another Thunderbolt, and then use the Przcureberry to free Granbull from paralysis...only to get confused lol. Bitter Berry breaks me out and I Return again for the KO. Steelix appears, eats a Charm and brings me to yellow with Iron Tail, and I fire off a Dynamicpunch only to miss and eat a second Iron Tail. I heal with a Super Potion and throw off another Dynamicpunch which misses, get Iron Tailed again back to yellow. I hit the next Dynamicpunch SUCCESSFULLY, confusing the iron snake and bringing him to nearly 50% HP (laaame)...and he still attacks, only to miss.

I heal up some more while Steelix hurts himself a tiny bit with confusion. I throw another Dynamicpunch, miss, and get Iron Tailed. I throw a final Dynamicpunch, which hits and brings him right down to red, only for him to break out of confusion and hit with Iron Tail again, only to miss. Jasmine then heals up with Hyper Potion, forcing me to start throwing out Returns again. I do very little damage with two Returns and get brought down to red, forcing me to heal up - and my defense falls after eating one more Iron Tail. I then get brought down to red by an Iron Tail, only to land a critical hit and bring Steelix to red myself. I then wipe him out with Return. Clearly Dynamicpunch wasn't very useful (thankfully I didn't save before I used it - I think I'll just sell this stupid move). However, I rack my brain and come up with a second strategy - teach Attract.

My Granbull's female and Jasmine's Steelix a male. Third try? Magnemite gets 2HKOed, paralyzing me (though I cured paralysis with the Przcureberry from my bag) and hitting me with Thunderbolt in the mean time. The second one tries to paralyze me only to miss completely, allowing me to 2HKO with Return. I Charm the Steelix twice and get hit by Iron Tail twice, the first reducing my defense. I get brought down to yellow, so Super Potion it is. Steelix misses Iron Tail and then I use Captivate. but Steelix hits me anyway. I then spam Return twice and use a Super Potion, Steelix missing like 1/3 times due to captivate and missing up a followup Iron Tail while I heal. I succeed in bringing Steelix to red with a critical hit and he misses Iron Tail. I anticipate Jasmine using Hyper Potion, so I just keep spamming Returns. Steelix misses Iron Tail and takes a second critical hit. I get hit by Iron Tail, Return, and dodge an Iron Tail. Heal with Hyper Potion this time and KO Steelix with two more Returns.

This is, suffice to say a weird matchup, though one Granbull is very much capable of winning even - you just need one or two healing items for paralysis and confusion (the confusion curing one preferably a held item) and preferably three-four Hyper Potions. I'd say it's C-Tier due to how inefficient it is, though it's certainly much more winnable, safer, and less resource-oriented than L11 Cyndaquil vs Falkner or L17 Phanpy vs Bugsy was.

Quilava (L34) - One-shotted Magnemite with Flame Wheel. Brought Steelix to red with Flame Wheel, Rock Throw (only has a small chance to 2HKO) missed, and I finished him off with two more Flame Wheels (two as Jasmine heals up with Hyper Potion). I ended up burning Steelix, not that it mattered. Second try goes more or less the same way though Rock Throw hits but fails to bring me to the yellow. Take Steelix out with three Flame Wheels, one because of Hyper Potion. Third try goes the same way as the second. I didn't even need the Fire Blast TM and you have like a 2.3% chance of losing this fight if Showdown calcs are telling the truth, no more (assuming a roughly maximum or maximum damage roll for Rock Throw and a critical hit, also assuming 31 IVs for Steelix and Quilava both). I would say A-Tier - that VERY small chance of a loss is the only issue.

Man, Seadra has been INCREDIBLE ever since I got him, being able to destroy two gyms in quick succession - definitely better than D, I think, and more than capable of crushing generic trainers. Quilava is all over the place as usual, being below-average against Chuck (only taking Primeape out reliably) and being quite solid against Jasmine - I think he'll stay in B until or unless he changes, which should hopefully be two levels later.

Donphan is also surprisingly awesome and while not likely to be A-Tier or even sure to get into B-Tier, way better than D-Tier with Curlout and Headbutt alone. No worse than C. Granbull is also shaping up to be a solid B-Tier, being capable of more or less reliably flattening even a gym that has a type advantage against him and being capable of beating a second one with a resistance, albeit with a lot of healing support.

Quilava is, well, Quilava. Struggles mightily against Chuck apart from Primeape but can more or less lay waste to Jasmine with Flame Wheel.

I haven't played gsc yet but thought I'd give my two cents. The way I see it there's two ways to use the day care, put a weak mon in there and play the game like normal until it's ready to evolve/get a good stab/whatever. Or you can put an underleveled team member in and run around doing nothing until it catches up to the rest of your team.

In efficient runs I have an issue with both of these methods. For the first one, I don't think you move around enough between gyms and dungeons to make the day care mon get enough exp to keep up with your team that's constantly fighting trainers. I also don't think it's good for testing mons, since if something's in the day care for half the game then we effectively only have half the matchup data as we would if the mon was kept in the party. I will note that this requires testing, as I said I haven't played gsc, so if the steps do work out that taking an optimal route also means the day care mon gets plenty of exp, then great, but I don't believe that's the case due to how slow the exp gain is. For the second method of using it to catch up something underleveled while you run around, it's basically the exact same as grinding on wild pokemon except you don't get EV's. Since grinding is usually frowned upon in these lists I see no reason why needing an excessive amount of daycare time wouldn't be as well.
I used the Daycare once that way and I believe it contributed to my 4-mon team all reaching their L40s before the E4, however.

I made sure to fight every trainer I could before Clair - the Rockets, the Route 45/46 trainers, and the Wise Trio. I also gave each Pokemon a proportional share of Rare Candies before the final Jasmine fight (one each for L34 Quilava and L34 Granbull, two each for L33 Donphan and L33 Seadra - just to make sure they reached Jasmine's levels). From there it didn't take too long until everyone hit the L40s, which I'd say is completely fair given the level of Clair's Kingdra too.

Seadra (L40): 1st try? 2HKOs 1st Dragonair with Icy Wind and Thunder Wave misses, only to be Thunder Waved and 2HKOed by the second Dragonair's Thunderbolt after failing to attack while paralyzed (though I brought to yellow).

Second try? Thunder Wave paralyzes but broken by Przcureberry. Hit second Dragonair with Icy Wind, only to get hit by Thunderbolt and paralyzed in one hit. Perhaps Kingdra would do this matchup much better due to not fearing Electric attacks half as much? Seadra does ''only'' get 2HKOed so Kingdra would only be 4HKOed, allowing him to progress till the mirror match. It's clear Seadra does not have a good time against Clair at all, however, and can at best beat one Dragonair without extreme support. That being said, it's clear Seadra otherwise is pretty screwed...so no 3rd try.

D, if not lower for Seadra - not even Cyndaquil against Falkner or Phanpy against Bugsy has this bad a matchup, likely C at least for Kingdra.
I won't attempt this challenge a third time, just like with Cyndaquil and Falkner - it was that bad, and unlike Cyndaquil, Seadra would not benefit from being just one level stronger. I will still say though that this is not true for Kingdra who would likely do much better overall.

Typhlosion (L40): Round 1? Sunny Blast nearly blasts off all of the 1st Dragonair's HP and I dodge another Thunder Wave only to be caught by the second one. I heal with a Przcureberry and tank Dragonbreath. I wipe her out with Thunderpunch. Kingdra comes in and eats a critical hit Thunderpunch that brings her to yellow as she Dragonbreaths me and when I move to set up Sunny Day, Clair heals Kingdra with a Hyper Potion.

We exchange Surf and Thunderpunch, her bringing me to red and me bringing her down but still within green, I heal with Hyper Potion and tank Dragonbreath, I fire off another Thunderpunch which crits and brings her to red as she Smokescreens, and I KO her through the smoke with Thunderpunch. Dragonair 2 comes in, the sun goes out and I set it back up while Thunder Wave misses, I fire off a Fire Blast as she succeeds in paralyzing me this time.

I heal paralysis with Parlyz Heal, only to be paralyzed again by Dragonbreath. I decide to heal later and attack first, taking Dragonair 2 out with Thunderpunch. Dragonair 3 damages me with Dragonbreath but gets blown to red by Fire Blast, I heal up with Hyper Potion and KO with Thunderpunch. YES, I beat Clair with Typhlosion, albeit I was pretty lucky with some of these misses it's clear he did a much better job than Seadra did - not being weak to Dragonair's attacks and being able to weaken Surf with Sunny Day are HUGE advantages.

Round 2, I set up Sunny Blast, Thunder Wave misses the first time and gets me the second, I heal with Przcureberry and get paralyzed again by Dragonbreath, then use Full Heal to heal paralysis again...only to be paralyzed AGAIN then heal it...only to be paralyzed AGAAAIN. Out of nowhere, Dragonair 1 remembers she can Surf me and hits me with it twice as I heal with Hyper Potion and fire off a Thunderpunch to KO her. Kingdra comes in, and I give up due to being paralyzed and being out of status healing items - being paralyzed, there's nothing I can do to stop or survive Surf. Basically a loss and a full reversal of the advantages I had the first time lol.

Round 3, I set up Sunny Blast and Thunder Wave gets me the first try, but I still bring Dragonair 1 to red with Fire Blast. I decide not to risk getting paralyzed again by Dragonair's Dragonbreath (at least Kingdra is more likely to use Hyper Beam or Smokescreen or even Surf), so I stay in and drop Dragonair with Thunderpunch in spite of being paralyzed. KIngdra comes in and Surfs me to yellow - thankfully the Sun is still strong, so I heal up immediately with a Hyper Potion - Surf seems to be a 3HKO under the Sun. The Sun fades after Kingdra Surfs again, and I heal again. Kingdra fires off Dragonbreath and being a bastard, paralyzes me first try as I set the weather up. I use Full Heal only to be Smokescreened, I fire off a Thunderpunch and paralyze HER this time (yeeeeesssss) and eat a second Smokescreen.

I miss Thunderpunch, Kingdra stays fully paralyzed, and the Sun fades - so I set it back up AGAIN. Kingdra stays fully paralyzed. I fire off a second Thunderpunch which crits and brings her straight to red. She stays paralyzed. Clair heals with Hyper Potion as I fire off another Thunderpunch. I fire off another Thunderpunch after that and Kingdra misses Hyper Beam. Kingdra eats one more Thunderpunch and goes to red, stays paralyzed, and the Sun goes out - so I put it back up again so I don't get Surfed too hard. I fire a Thunderpunch but miss due to Smokescreen, though Kingdra either stays paralyzed or also misses, I forgot. The Thunderpunch after that connects and KOs Kingdra safely.

Dragonair 2 comes in and eats a sun-boosted Blast, but paralyzes me and brings me to red with Thunder Wave and Dragonbreath. The Sun fades again and I heal with the Hyper Potion. After missing one or two Thunderpunches (and healing paralysis in the mean time), I finally connect a final Thunderpunch and knock D2 out. In comes D3, my Fire Blast misses, and Dragonbreath KOs Typhlosion due to me not having any more Hyper Potions. :(

I'd say Typhlosion is capable of winning this matchup (certainly more so than Seadra is, far more so), though you need the Sunny Day + Fire Blast + Thunderpunch trifecta to reliably power through everyone and avoid being Surfed too hard - and you will need a good number of paralysis-healing items as well as a minimum of three Hyper Potions. Give Typhlo the item support, though, and he can absolutely win. I'd say C-Tier minimum, surprisingly -this matchup is luck dependent for both you and Clair and you definitely need healing and status healing items to clinch the win. The good news is that the moves I mentioned have relatively little opportunity cost at this point in the game and Typhlo is an excellent user of all three.

If this is how strong Typhlo could be in the League, let's just say there's very little to worry about.

Granbull (L41): 1st Dragonair Surfs to do little damage and gets one-shotted by Return. Dragonair 2 critical hits me and paralyzes with Thunderbolt but faints to Return. 3rd Dragonair Ice Beams as I heal with Hyper Potion, only for me to get frozen as I undo the paralysis with a Full Heal. I use another Full Heal to defrost and OHKO with Return. I'm in the red, so I heal with another Hyper Potion. I eat two Surfs and bring her Kingdra to lo yellow. I heal with another Hyper Potion, only to be brought to red by a critical hit Surf. Well, I lose this one due to no healing items :(

Second try goes much the same, though Dragonair 2 Thunder Waves me instead of Thunderbolting but still gets KOed. Dragonair 3 eats a Return and gets KOed while doing little to me with Ice Beam. Kingdra brings me to red with Surf and I bring her to yellow with Return. I heal up with a Hyper Potion - no, I didn't bother to cure the paralysis this time, it wouldn't make much of a difference given I go last anyway - and take Kingdra down with a second Return while eating a couple Surfs.

Third try goes much the same, except I take a little longer to KO Dragonair 2 due to being fully paralyzed the first turn. I get Smokescreened by Kingdra causing me to miss a Return and still need to heal with Hyper Potions, but I win by spamming Return.

Verdict? C-Tier, can beat Clair semi-reliably with item support and arguably less so than Typhlo, but being slow means getting statused.

Donphan (L40): Get destroyed by Dragonair 1's Surf, one keeps me in green but the second is a critical hit. Well, that worked.

Outsped Dragonair 1 and brought to yellow with Strength, take Surf and enter yellow myself. Get taken out by final Surf.

Not even gonna bother repeating this matchup, Donphan did by far the worst of the bunch. Fail tier, not even able to beat Dragonair 1.

D-Tier, if even that.
 
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DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
The main issue with the Daycare in Gen 2 is you have no idea how many more steps you need to gain a level. Unless you are literally counting every step, know what XP you put it in at AND which XP group its in (which no one will bother to do).

And if you pull out even 1 XP from a level, that entire gain of xp is lost. The other problem is how many steps do you think you guys actually take during a relatively efficient run of the game (By which I mean, do you run around in circles a lot or anything? Probably not). I'm guessing its probably only really in the realms of 20-25k steps.

The more efficient your run, the less XP you gain. It's way way faster just training against wild mons even as they give 100+xp each (That's 100 steps). For example, take the route West of Ecruteak. A rough estimate from trainers is 2300-2500XP (Might be a bit more, its very rough maths). Wild mons in that area give between 150-270XP. Miltank and Tauros give a bunch more (like 350+) but are a lot rarer. Even just the trainers means you have to walk ~800 steps to "Keep even" with a 3 mon team.

In a more pragmatic example, the amount of steps you need to hatch the Odd Egg is around 5000. For most people, they will cycle around Goldenrod to hatch it, but it still takes ages. Even if you continue, chances are you'll be pretty far (probably somewhere near Cianwood or later) before you hit 5k steps. Johto is surprisingly small, and unless you artificially pump your step count, I cannot see it being useful at all. I'm not going to count how big each route is in steps, thats inane.

I wouldn't bother considering Daycare at all as it has too many issues with the very slow XP gain and the chances of you losing a lot of a levels worth of XP.
 
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Man, Typhlosion is a real beast with Sunny Day, Fire Blast, and Thunderpunch. To think he'd actually beat Clair, a matchup that's widely considered a bad one for him, and in another instance blow through 3/4 of her team with healing support (including Kingdra)...just wow lol.

I think I'll try again, this time replacing the useless Dig (I thought it would be useful against Kingdra ironically but it clearly wasn't) with Rest so I can maintain stamina for fighting the Dragonair after the first one and Kingdra much better. Her ability to cause statuses and Smokescreen is really the biggest annoyance she posed, and while Rest can't fix accuracy, it can fix the former just fine.
 
I'm sorry for not posting the past week. The school has been dumping work on us even in lockdown :-(.

For a quick answer, aegon the unlikely I'm not sold on Daycare because "who on earth counts the number of steps they take?".

On a happier note, I've finished testing my Typlosion / Noctowl / Machamp / Politoed team. I'll post my verdict after dinner. What I also noticed is that when I'm running around fighting enemies right after getting the Amulet Coin, I have about 180k before Claire. If I go on further to the Elite 4 entrance, I have about 228k so it's very possible to have 2 of the expensive Fire Blast / Thunder / Blizzard. This will leave you very low on funds for healing items though. ( I skipped Union Cave and the entire route south of Blackthorn City so you could probably get money from there )

I got the Poliwag after Morty instead of Old Rod because I don't need it until then. Violet City's pond has Lv24 Poliwag which allows me to skip the "Sucky" phase of Poliwag and I can even evolve it at Azalea into Politoed as I'll have access to Strength by then. Any thoughts on this method?

Here it is, the mon that everyone loves to debate on. For this playthrough, I gave it the Rollout, Fire Punch, Sunny Day and Thunder Punch TMs. Fire Blast is only obtained after Clair.

Falkner: Ember can help you sweep here as it cleanly 2HKOes Pidgey and 3HKOes Pidgeotto. You might need a Potion if you get unlucky with misses.

Bugsy: Easy sweep with Ember here.

Whitney: With an X Speed, Quilava gets faster than Miltank. It 3HKOes Clefairy with Rollout and 2HKOes Miltank with the 4th and 5th hit. You need some luck to not miss your Rollouts though.

Morty: I did not teach Quilava Dig as I gave the TM to Machop. Ember is too weak at this point and Rollout isn't reliable thanks to Hypnosis, Curse, and Lick.

Chuck: Bad match-up again unless you have Flame Wheel or Fire Blast. Charcoal Ember only 4HKOes while Karate Chop 3HKOes Primeape although the AI loves using Leer or Rage so Quilava can probably win 1 v 1. Obviously loses to Poliwrath though.

Jasmine: Dig would OHKO Magnemites but I don't have it so yeah. Charcoal Ember only 2HKOes Magnemites while they can Thunder Wave or Supersonic. Loses to Steelix without Flame Wheel or Fire Blast as Charcoal Ember 3HKOes while Rock Throw does about 60% which is KO range after the Magnemites.

Pryce: You can set up an easy Rollout sweep on his Seel.

Clair: Yeah, keep Typhlosion away from Clair. You can't even set up a Rollout sweep because of Thunder Wave spam. Kingdra obviously OHKOes with Surf while Thunder Punch 5HKOes.

Will: Fire Blast OHKOes the first Xatu, Thunder Punch 2HKOes Slowbro, Fire Punch OHKOes the Exeggutor and Jynx. Fire Blast does 90% to the second Xatu so you can take it out if Slowbro doesn't use Psychic on you earlier.

Koga: Easy win here with Fire Punch. Sunny Day Fire Blast OHKOes Crobat. It also 2HKOes Muk with Fire Punch + Fire Blast. (2 Fire Punch doesn't KO).

Bruno: Not as good as you like. You need to set up Sunny Day for Fire Blast to OHKO as Fire Punch only 2HKOes in the Sun (3HKO without). Loses to Machamp's Rock Slide while Fire Blast doesn't OHKO even in the Sun.

Karen: Typhlosion takes Vileplume, Murkrow, and Gengar. Umbreon is doable but wastes time.

Lance: Thunder Punch 2HKOes Gyarados while it Rain Dances. You can probably beat Charizard as well. Keep it away from Dragonite and Aerodactyl though.

Verdict: A good mon that has a strong beginning, mixed middle game, and decent late game. I will say B but wouldn't be opposed to A.


I'll start by saying Hoothoot sucks. In a game where Normals reign, base 30 and later 50 Atk just doesn't cut it. A tiny movepool doesn't help. The SpD can help it take some hits but you'd rather be doing damage. It's match-up against Gyms is not that good. I'd kick it to D honestly.

Falkner: It can win in a damage race against Pidgey but falls flat against Pidgeotto.

Bugsy: You can sweep with Peck unless Scyther picks 3 Quick Attacks in a row. A Berry helps to give better odds of survival.

Whitney: Noctowl is faster than Clefairy and can Hypnosis it or just 3HKO with Swift (2HKO with high DVs). It can't do anything against Miltank except Hypnosis which is just delaying the inevitable.

Morty: His Ghosts can't harm Noctowl outside of Curse and Dream Eater. With a Mint Berry, you can trade Hypnosis with Gengar as well. This is doable although you might need some switching because of Curse.

Chuck: Primeape outspeeds Noctowl and 3HKOes with Karate Chop although you can 2HKO back with Return. His tendency to pick Leer and Rage means you will beat Primeape. Poliwrath is a bad match-up as Return only 4HKOes and he has a Full Heal so Hypnosis is not as reliable.

Jasmine: Yeah, keep Noctowl away from Jasmine. Her Steel-types resist everything except Mud-Slap which still does pathetic damage.

Pryce: Yeah, keep Noctowl away from Pryce. His Ice-types can shrug off Returns and hit you back with a Super Effective move.

Clair: You can take a Dragonair since Return 3HKOes while Ice Beam only 3HKOes Noctowl. Paralyze Cure Berry makes the match-up better. No hope against Kingdra though.

Will: Return 2HKOes the first Xatu and 3HKOes the second Xatu while Psychic is a 3HKO from either. Fly is 3HKO on Exeguttor who 3HKOes back with Psychic so choose your mat-ups carefully.

Koga: You win this match-up with Fly / Return.

Bruno: Not as good as you like. Return 2HKOes Hitmontop while Fly takes care of the other Hitmons. Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick does about 70% so watch out for that. Loses to Machamp's Rock Slide

Karen: Noctowl takes Vileplume, Murkrow, and Gengar.

Lance: Yeah, keep Noctowl away from Lance.

verdict: Hoothoot sucks. I would kick it to D.


To get a Machop, you need to get an Abra which isn't too bad since I have a Hoothoot to Hypnosis it. Once that was done, I took it to clean up the Underground and Gym trainers, bringing it to Lv19 immediately. I gave it the Dig, Strength, and Earthquake TMs since my team does not really have any other abuser of these moves. I only evolved it after Chuck because I have TWO trade evolutions and didn't feel like backtracking.

Whitney: Easy sweep here with Machop. An X Speed will help Machop to outspeed Miltank and prevent those flinches. The Free Gold Berry is good too to guarantee the win.

Morty: Note that even at +1 Speed, Machop is still slower than his Ghosts so don't bother. Dig can OHKO Gastly and 2HKOes Haunter although some switching may be needed to clear Curse. Machop is 2HKOed by Gengar's Shadow Ball and can only 2HKO back with Dig.

Chuck: Machoke 3HKOes Primeape with Strength while being 5HKOed back. Surf 2HKOes Machoke who only 5HKOes with Strength. Even a critical Karate Chop does about 35%. Not a good match-up.
Machamp 2HKOes Primeape with Strength while being 5HKOed back. A critical hit Karate Chop 2HKOes Poliwrath who 3HKOes back with Surf so you can set up Focus Energy on Primeape and take Poliwrath out easily.

Jasmine: Machamp can easily take out the Magnemites as Thunderbolt only 3HKOes and you can have Paralyze Cure berry or Bitter Berry to cure status while you set up a Focus Energy. Critical hit Karate Chop 2HKOes Steelix while being 2HKOed by Iron Tail. Winnable match-up unless you did not set-up.

Pryce: Machamp goes to town with Focus Energy + Karate Chop.

Clair: Set up a Focus Energy on Dragonair who can only threaten with Thunder Wave. From there, critical hit Karate Chop OHKOes Dragonair and 2HKOes Kingdra. Keep in mind that Vital Throw 2HKOes Dragonair and 3HKOes Kingdra. Note that Kingdra can 2HKO back with Surf or Hyper Beam and is faster. Machamp is still slower after +1 Speed. Not a good match-up as it is luck-reliant.

Will: Yeah, keep Machamp away from Will.

Koga: Return will carry you through his mons while Earthquake 2HKOes Muk. Machamp loses 1 v 1 to Crobat though.

Bruno: Vital Throw 2HKOes all his mons except Machamp while critical hit Karate Chop OHKOes all his mons except Machamp. Only threat here is Hitmonlee who does more than half with Hi Jump Kick. His Machamp will finish yours off with Cross Chop though since critical hit Karate Chop only 2HKOes and you need Lv43 for Cross Chop (which is a 2HKO).

Karen: Machamp takes Umbreon with Vital Throw, Gengar with Earthquake, and Vileplume with Return. Houndoom is winnable as its Flamethrower only does 60% while Earthquake OHKOes back. Keep in mind the damage on Machamp though as it is slow. Murkrow is also winnable with Return but it will leave you too weak to take a Houndoom Flamethrower.

Lance: Nothing much Machamp can do here really.

verdict: It has some good match-ups but you need to rely on luck to get Critical hits for clean sweeps. B material.


I get this Poliwag right after Morty by Surfing in Violet City's pond. It comes at Lv 24 which allows me to skip the "sucky" Poliwag phase and is just 1 level from evolving where I can teach it Strength and Ice Punch as coverage. At this point, you can also head to Azalea Town to get King's Rock to evolve it but I did that after Chuck to reduce the backtracking.

Chuck: Both Poliwhirl and Politoed 2HKO Primeape with Surf while only 5HKOing Poliwrath.

Jasmine: Politoed barely survives a Thunderbolt and can set up Rain Dance to Surf sweep.

Pryce: Politoed only 3HKOes Seel and 4HKO Dewgong with Strength which can be wiped away with Rest. It easily beats Piloswine with Surf.

Clair: An X Special can be used to give Politoed the power to OHKO Dragonaires with Ice Punch. This also helps Blizzard to 2HKO Kingdra who does about 60% with Hyper Beam. Without X Special, Politoed can only 2HKO Dragonaires with Ice Punch and 3HKO Kingdra with Blizzard. If Politoed does not have Blizzard, it has no business taking on Kingdra as +1 Ice Punch only 3HKOes.

Will: Blizzard OHKOes the Xatus and Exeguttor while Ice Punch 2HKOes the same targets. Psychic 3HKOes Politoed so choose your targets carefully.

Koga: All his mons are 2HKOed by Surf except Muk who gets 3HKOed (2HKO in the Rain) . Crobat gets 2HKOed by Ice Punch or Blizzard.

Bruno: All his mons are 2HKOed by Surf but Machamp does about 80% with Cross Chop. Rain Dance does not make the odds better here.

Karen: If you set up a Rain Dance, Politoed can OHKO Murkrow and Houndoom with Surf (2HKO otherwise). Take note that Murkrow will bring Politoed into Crunch 2HKO range if you don't have X Speed or Hyper Potion. Gengar is doable but risky as it has Destiny Bond.

Lance: With an X Speed, Politoed outspeeds Lance's entire team except Aerodactyl and can OHKO them with Surf or Blizzard. Ice Punch only 2HKOes Dragonites which might leave Politoed open to being picked off by Thunder (does about 80%), Outrage (about 45%), or Thunder Wave. It's good enough as Feraligatr needs the same support here.

verdict: With 90 SpA and good availability, I think this warrants a rise to B or A. Ice Punch is much better than Icy Wind which is what most other Water-types get. You only need Blizzard for some enemies.



Falkner: Cyndaquil Lv 12, Hoothoot Lv 8
Bugsy: Quilava Lv 17, Hoothoot Lv 17
Whitney: Quilava Lv 20, Noctowl Lv 20, Machop Lv 19
Morty: Quilava Lv 24, Machop Lv 23, Noctowl Lv 23
Chuck: Machamp Lv 28, Noctowl Lv 28, Politoed Lv 27, Quilava Lv 29
Jasmine: Politoed Lv 28, Noctowl Lv 29, Machamp Lv 28, Quilava Lv 29
Pryce: Politoed Lv 32, Machamp Lv 32, Noctowl Lv 32, Quilava Lv 32
Clair: Politoed Lv 36, Machamp Lv 36, Noctowl Lv 36, Typhlosion Lv 36
Elite Four: Politoed Lv 40, Machamp Lv 40, Noctowl Lv 40, Typhlosion Lv 40
 
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I got the Poliwag after Morty instead of Old Rod because I don't need it until then. Violet City's pond has Lv24 Poliwag which allows me to skip the "Sucky" phase of Poliwag and I can even evolve it at Azalea into Politoed as I'll have access to Strength by then. Any thoughts on this method?
*Severe* availability cost, but who knows?

I'd need logs on what Early Wag can do to see what it misses out on.

If it's anything like Old Rod vs Wild Grass Poli, you might have a point. Ain't like it's really doing a lot on Sprout Tower anyway.

On the other hand, missing out on an Hypnosis mon against Whitney's demonic Miltank might be a bit of a hit.

Definitely warrants testing.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi Maybe I just had good luck because Quilava (Lv20) swept Whitney with the 4th and 5th hit of Rollout after 3HKOing Clefairy. Of course, you need some luck to get every Rollout hit and not get flinched by Miltank to do so.

Kioskate
You can obtain Metal Coat by spamming Thief on Magnemites who carry it 2% of the time. Have fun. I did it before and it took almost 45 minutes.
Wait, you dedicate so many resources for Hypno? I don't know but seeing this doesn't seem like it has many a good match-up and has issues.
Scyther gets Swords Dance at Lv43 at which point you'll probably be in Kanto or halfway through the Elite Four. Scizor probably does better here but look at what I said about Metal Coat.

Ernesto
Did you try to set up Rain Dance to sweep Morty with Poliwhirl / Poliwrath in that log? I can't imagine it goes very well with Curse.

aegon the unlikely
Your experience with Seadra seems similar to mine except your team is about 4 levels higher than mine in those Gym match-ups. You'll probably sing a different tune when you see those difficult match-ups later.

You seem to be using a lot of items though such as the Grumpig Gym match-up vs Jasmine. Normally in those cases, we just call that a bad match-up and move on, you know. Setting up with items could make it winnable but at that point, isn't your time and resources better spent on finding a different way to win?

Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
 
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Of course, you need some luck to get every Rollout hit and not get flinched by Miltank to do so.
You need obscene luck to not *die* to 2 Miltank hits. Miltank will outspeed you.

That's the whole issue here. Unless you have a Gold Berry, Clefairy will put you in a 2HKO range. You can see my number of attempts on that matchup and my Quilava was at Lv. 19, so it's not really a level issue.

Getting a Gold Berry is a problem and time-consuming in and out of itself because of the Bug-Catching Contest mechanics.
 
Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
Just the Elite Four + Champion should be the end goal. Red is mostly arbitrary and tiring to test to, so I think excluding Red is the best move.
 
Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red
Kanto is post-game and should not be tiered.

You get 8 badges, beat the E4, beat the Champ, get into the Hall of Fame, credits roll, and you're warped back to the starting town.

Anything past that is post-game, therefore I vote against counting Kanto.
 
Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
tbh i'd prefer not to test further than lance

(the other notable ones are Silver Ho-Oh, Gold Lugia, and VC Crystal Celebi, the first two of which massacre the rest of the game, I think)
 
Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
HGSS opted not to test to Red due to several factors. Kanto is post game and by that definition usually isn’t tiered. Kanto is a mess of a region to even attempt to test. There’s isn’t anything to tier in Kanto barring Snorlax (this is shared with GSC), Red is just a stupid fight. It was neat at the time but it’s almost impossible to get even remotely close to his levels and on average you’ll be below by about 20-30 levels. You also run into the issue of burnout. Testing Fatigue is pretty real here and you would be asking for almost 30+ fights that need to be tested.

TL;DR Kanto should not be tested. Just stick with E4 + Champion.
 
I consider Red to be the endgoal, but I always figured this thread ran on the assumption that Lance was; and to go back on that decision would essentially mean testing everything all over again imo.
 
Random Passerby I was gonna reply to your earlier Poliwag post but a lot happened since I went to get a haircut so I'll make a bigger reply.

Poliwag has generally bad matchups pre-Surf besides putting things to sleep (for example rival's ace) to help a teammate, however Morty is a very good performance so I wouldn't skip it. You can technically get the Good Rod before him so the only annoying thing would be having to go back twice as opposed to once to get it + King's Rock (obviously not an issue if you go for Wrath).

Yes, I did use Rain Dance against Morty. Like I told Texas, you Surf Gastly, put Haunter to sleep to avoid Curse, RD, Surf KO, Surf 2HKO Gengar (Mint Berry helps to avoid Hypnosis) and Surf a roll to OHKO the second Haunter in the last rain turn. That's Whirl, Wrath KOs guaranteed but it's a speed tie against the first Haunter so I think Whirl can be argued to be better. Also unlike Quilava it doesn't need a precious TM to win.

Regarding Quilava against Whitney, yes you can beat Miltank with Rollout BUT a) you need the Gold Berry, b) you need to not get troll rolls from Clefairy that put you in a range where the first Rollout doesn't activate the Berry and the second kills (it happened to me and sucks), and c) you need to avoid all kinds of hax such as misses, Metronome, and flinches. Too many contingencies to be a positive matchup, imo.
I will mention that you can get the Gold Berry from the traded Machop, so you don't HAVE to do the Bug-catching contest.

I concur with you that aegon's Donphan definitely didn't have a B-tier performance against Jasmine, I was surprised by his ranking since he needed so many items.

I also vote we skip Kanto performance. There's a third fight that can be tricky which is Sabrina (without a Dark-type its Zam is significantly deadlier than Will's mons) but overall that'd influence very few Pokemon. It's sad because Houndoom is very cool, but there's not much of a point.

Volt-Ikazuchi : Both Quagsire and Fearow would definitely perform better against Whitney but it seems that their Medium Fast experience group really held your team back judging by its levels at Bugsy (the three at level 14 while I had three 15s and one 17, all Medium Slow). If they're generally unable to evolve by Whitney w/o grinding I wonder if it should influence their rankings. I only used them in larger teams and fighting wild mons so I can't contribute here.

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I couldn't play much yesterday so I'm still fighting Team Rocket, that said I do want to mention a few things:

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Quilava has been surprisingly decent in the midgame, better than I remembered. As long as you avoid the bulkier things you can generally get by with just Ember -> Flame Wheel and Headbutt -> Return (I guess Strength works if you can't change the clock), meaning the other slots are pretty much free. I used Rock Smash because nothing in my team learned it and I wrongly thought I needed it to get to Silver in the Burned Tower, it was useful against the Dewgong in Pryce's gym since Defense drops made Return two-shot them, and Quick Attack as filler to save PP but that could easily be Dig to beat Koffing and Grimer more reliably—though I doubt it's strong enough for their older siblings. Outside of that it's only necessary against Morty. Rollout can help against Whitney and Pryce but you can lose to the former and beat the latter regardless so not needed. Again, you only require two moves to do well so it's very TM-efficient, unlike RB Charmeleon which imo NEEDS Dig.

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Poliwrath continues to be broken as most Water-types in this part of the game. Strong Return (barely weaker than Feraligatr's) helps against resists such as Dewgong and opposing Poliwrath and Hypnosis + Rain Dance allows you to make short work of Jasmine, while doing impressively against the Rocket executive with the five Koffing and the level 32 Weezing. I didn't KO it but I left it in red.

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Victreebel positively destroys Chuck but doesn't do as well against Jasmine (needs three Growths to 2HKO everything with MS Vine Whip) and Pryce (Sludge Bomb only 2HKOs Dewgong which does about half with Aurora Beam, and Piloswine lives two Vine Whips and does a ton with Blizzard; needs Sleep Powder here). Didn't get much play in the Radio Tower since it's filled with Poison-types.

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Pidgeotto hits a rut against the gym leaders. The most annoying thing about Chuck is that Primeape outspeeds unless you overlevel, so you'll have to switch out and heal. Poliwrath was also tough because it always used Mind Reader, meaning I had to switch out since DynamicPunch destroys it. Can't 2HKO Jasmine's Magnemite with Mud-Slap, lmao. Pryce's Dewgong 2HKOs while being 3HKOed back and Piloswine almost OHKOs with Blizard if it hits. It's doing better in the Radio Tower, though.

Ftr Quilava and Poliwrath are level 34, Bel and Pidgeotto are 33.
 
Is there any Pokemon that needs testing? Or any that people would like tested a bit more? Or any team structures? Just want an excuse to play through gen 2 lol
I'd like a second opinion on Kenya the Spearow and the Red Gyarados if you don't mind.

Volt-Ikazuchi : Both Quagsire and Fearow would definitely perform better against Whitney but it seems that their Medium Fast experience group really held your team back judging by its levels at Bugsy (the three at level 14 while I had three 15s and one 17, all Medium Slow). If they're generally unable to evolve by Whitney w/o grinding I wonder if it should influence their rankings. I only used them in larger teams and fighting wild mons so I can't contribute here.
Pretty much. Medium-"Fast" is already a problem from the jump because Spearow ate so much experience that I couldn't get Cyndaquil to 12. No Ember for Falkner.

Even evolved, I'm not sure Fearow would do too well against Miltank.
Return at that point was still doing less than Swift, so it's not far-fetched to assume it'd be doing as much rn. Rollout just makes that matchup bad no matter what.

Quag on the other hand would likely have enough damage output to eventually overcome Miltank, but again, it was hurt by team composition.

They just evolved, so if anyone wants to run calcs, here ya go.
Pokemon - Crystal Version (UE) (V1.1) [C][!]_1612541015466.png

Pokemon - Crystal Version (UE) (V1.1) [C][!]_1612541011147.png


Fast is actually worse than Medium-Slow up to Lv. 30 iirc.

Medium-"Fast" only gets better than MS at Lv. 59. It's an objectively worse group for our purposes because there's absolutely no way the levels will go this high before Lance.

Regarding my playstyle, so far I battled every single trainer. The detours were small (Sprout Tower, National Park) or actually optimal (Underground).

I do not plan on going extremely out of my way to explore the bowels of Union Cave and Mt. Mortar. There are barely any trainers out there, so it's a waste of time.

I am not beating ANY wild mons outside of Sudowoodo and in hindsight I should've caught it for Rock Smash and Strength. Oh well.

I will mention that you can get the Gold Berry from the traded Machop, so you don't HAVE to do the Bug-catching contest.
That IS a game-changer. With Gold Berry I don't think Miltank can 2HKO Quilava.

My attempts had me at: 36/57, 33/57, 37/57, 48/57 (exceptional luck on that one), and 31/57.

With Miltank's 1st Rollout doing 16, 17 damage and then triggering the Gold Berry, this means it definitely can survive the 2nd Roll and 2HKO.

You still need some luck and you're banking on not getting jammed by Rollout's 90% accuracy for 5 turns in a row, but it changes the MU from "outright bad" to "possible".
 
I was JUST about to post about Muscle's Gold Berry as well; didn't see Ernesto's hint.

What I will say is that due to the way rounding words, the gap in damage dealt between Lv. 19 and Lv. 20 is more significant than one might think.
One of the basic factors in the damage formula (alongside basic damage and ATK/DEF values) is ([Lv * 2/5] + 2), with [] denoting a rounding down to the next integer. This factor goes up everytime a 'mon passes a level ending in 3, 5, 8 or 0.
In this specific case, it is a 9 at lv. 19, but a 10 at lv. 20, meaning you'll deal 11% more damage on lv. 20 (and that's before your increased ATK is even factored in).
This is also one of the reasons why overleveling trivializes the game so much.
 

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