GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

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I caught a Golbat at 22 after Morty so that I could use the Friend Ball and because Zubat is bad in the first 3 or 4 gyms anyway.
As a 30 Crobat it could beat Pryce's Seel and 3HKO's Piloswine who 4HKO's back with Icy Wind but can 2HKO if it hits both Blizzards.
31 Crobat solo's Chuck and loses to Jasmine
32 Crobat sweeps the Rocket Rival fight except Magnemite. It does beat Magnemite 1v1 but is too damaged to sweep after.
37 Crobat beats any of Claire's pokemon 1v1, but takes too much damage to beat more than one.
40 Crobat loses to the Rival's Magneton in Victory Road but can solo the rest of his team
43 Crobat can beat a single of Will's pokemon except for Jynx and Slowbro, taking too much damage to handle more than one of them
43 Crobat sweeps Koga except for his own Crobat, which becomes a very RNG fight but probably favors Koga even if your Crobat is at full health. If I had swift it might have been able to beat Crobat but I gave it to Magnemite
44 Crobat sweeps Bruno if Onix is dealt with. It does beat Onix 1v1 but takes too much damage to sweep everything
44 Crobat beats all of Karen but doesn't sweep unless you switch out to deal with Sand Attack and Curse.
44 Crobat can beat 1 of Gyarados and Charizard but not both while losing to the rest.
Zubat is very good at clearing routes, is good againt Chuck and Clair but bad against Pryce and Jasmine. It beats 3/5 Elite 4 fights with very little support while taking 1 thing down before losing in the other 2. It needs back tracking for the Friend ball and needs Return so while it's a lot better than most of C it still probably belongs there. Without considering the back tracking I'd probably nominate it for B

Took the trade Onix at level 3 and beating every optional trainer before Falkner except Sprout Tower gets you to level 9. At level 9 you have a chance to beat Pidgey with 3 health left and lose to Pidgeotto. If you switch out after Pidgey to reset status you need 1 potion and a berry, if not an extra potion. You can't overlevel Onix to win because it'll stop obeying you
17 Onix sounds over leveled for Bugsy but it gets boosted exp. It doesn't obey so I tried the fight 4 times and only lost once. It feels like it should be fairly consistent. This is the last time Onix disobeys. It also easily beats the Rival, but would have needed a potion if it wasn't Quilava.
20 Onix beats Whitney without even needing to leave Goldenrod and get Dig.
27 Onix is faster and OHKO's all but Gengar. With a mint berry as long as it doesn't hit 2 Hypnosis you win. If it does you need an awakening.
After this Onix beats Primape, Seel and most of the Rival's Pokemon
43 Onix loses to all of Will's pokemon
43 Onix sweeps Koga except for Crobat and Ariados.
44 Onix beats Bruno except Machamp. It takes too much damage to beat more than 2 of them
44 Onix beats Umbreon and Gengar and looks like with another level or 2 beats Murkrow
44 Onix Beats Aerodactyl, even losing to the Thunder Dragonite.
Onix is great early game and awful in the last half. Against route mons you really appreciate the boosted exp because you don't have to use a pokemon with Pidgey's attack stat. Dig's 10 PP is bad when you need so many hits against route mons. You're honestly better off only using Onix to fight Magnemites after Morty and catching a new one before the Elite 4.

Steelix should be D rank, you're either stuck with Onix until Kanto or grinding a metal coat which would be way to RNG dependant, possibly taking a couple hours even with Thief.

Magnemite is easy to level after catching, with many water and flying types in the Lighthouse.
26 Magnemite loses to Morty, beating some of the Ghastly and Haunter but provides great support being able to Thunder Wave Gengar.
30 Magneton beats Pryce's waters while losing to Piloswine
31 Magneton 3HKO's Primape but if it Karate Chops twice you lose. It's faster and 2HKO's Poliwrath while surviving Dynamic Punch so you win ig
you don't hit yourself by holding a berry.
31 Magneton needs Thunder to beat both of Jasmine's Magnemite but beats 1 without.
32 Magneton takes almost 0 damage from the rival, except Quilava who it loses to.
37 Magneton had a chance to barely 1v1 a Dragonair but loses to Kingdra being too slow and getting 2HKO'd
40 Magneton sweeps the rival again excluding Typhlosion.

43 Magneton loses to Exeggutor but beats the rest of Will 1v1, taking too much damage to beat more than 1 or 2
44 Magneton sweeps Koga who just can't touch it.
44 Magneton can beat one of Hitmonlee or Hitmonchan but not both
44 Magneton beats Umbreon, Gengar and Murkrow while usually beating Vileplume, but you can lose to status. Loses to Houndoom
44 Magneton loses to the level 50 Dragonite and Charizard, but can beat any 2 of the others.
Routes are ok, taking little damage from a lot of things thanks to steel typing but even low level Grass/Electric/Grounds are very tedious for it. Loses to Morty, Pryce, Jasmine and Clair while being able to beat 1 of Chucks Pokemon, but not sweep. It beats Koga but otherwise only beats the weaker Elite 4 Pokemon. It needs Thunder and Rain dance to be an ok Pokemon but still probably justifies C tier.

28 Seel loses to Chuck but beats Steelix who is 7 levels higher if you have rain dance. Without Rain dance you can do it with a potion.
31 Seel can beat any of the Rivals pokemon but takes too much damage to beat more than one.
36 Dewgong with Blizzard sweeps Clair with an x Accuracy and PRZcure berry. I don't know if 37 Dewgong would KO Dragonair with Ice Beam, but it would need a potion to beat Kingdra.
40 Dewgong beats all the rival's Pokemon 1v1, being able to sweep them all if Magneton is handles by another Pokemon.

43 Dewgong Sweeps all of Will except Slowbro, who it loses 1v1.
44 Dewgong Sweeps Koga
44 Dewgong beats Hitomontop, Hitmonchan and Onix. It needs to hit 2 Blizzard to beat Machamp and be at full health and it loses to Hitmonlee because it outspeeds.
44 Dewgong beats all except for Houndoom, taking to much status/damage to sweep the others though. It's just barely 2HKO's by Houndoom, so
another level or better rolls would have fixed it.
44 Dewgong beats all of Lance 1v1 but takes too much damage to sweep.

Seel comes late needing Pryce's badge and starts off very bad with base 45 offenses. It evolves late at 34 but you have to wait until 37 if you want Ice Beam for Clair. My 26 Seel lost to a 22 Goldeen and 27 Seel lost to a 24 Raticate, both times being from full health. It would continue to regularly lose against random trainers like this until it evolves. Aurora Beam is not strong enough for Clair, so you're either using Blizzard or having on of the worst Pokemon to baby in the game. It does perform very well against the Elite 4

I think Seel could move down to C but could also stay B. It's questionable if it's matchups in the late game doesn't justify it's availability and how bad it is to raise before it evolves. .
 
Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
I always assumed what the original post says - Red being the end goal. I disagree that excluding Kanto doesn't change much. If you are going to move the goal to earlier part of the game then all lategame Pokemon should drop a tier. Just a few of obvious changes I can notice:
Swinub drops from D to E. It comes underleveled, underpowered and requires heavy TM usage only to be used against Clair, E4 and 4 routes inbetween.
Gligar drops from D to E. Okay stats but no STABs and late availability hurt it.
Lickitung drops from D to E. Starts better than two abovementioned Pokemon thanks to its typing but you are still going to need to train it up and 55/60 offences do not help.
Delibird drops from E to F. Its every viable move (except for Blizzard) is on par with Shadow Ball + Ice Punch Sneasel in terms of damage. It also has worse stats than Sneasel except for SpA.
Skarmory drops from C to E. Seems harsh but it's a complete joke in terms of efficiency without Kanto. All it gets is Fly and Swift. No Steel Wing. Have fun turning every battle into a slapfest.
Ponyta drops from D to E/F. You won't see Rapidash in action since Ponyta appears just before Victory Road and requires 8 level ups to evolve. Ponyta starts with Stomp so you need to teach it Fire Blast which comes from 65 SpA and doesn't help that much against E4. Additionally, 50/55/65 bulk is tragic.
Doduo drops from C to E. With immediate access to Tri Attack, Fly (which can be easily swapped with Drill Peck) and its evolution, Doduo starts way better than every single Pokemon I have mentioned, however it doesn't change the fact that you use it for 2 routes and E4. Starting underleveled doesn't help. Trade Dodrio in Crystal may be another story though.
Tangela drops from D to E/F. It should be in E to begin with, in my opinion. It has no moves except for Vine Whip and Sleep Powder while being underleveled. Its coverage moves come from 55 base attack so lack of Kanto's Giga Drain hurt it even more.

I just feel like there is no reason to put anything after Rocket's plotline higher than E with the sole exception being Jynx (she starts with good moveset and amazing typing for lategame major battles). There are max. 3 hours of gameplay left at that point so grabbing underleveled Pokemon for E4 is just silly.
 
aegon the unlikely
Your experience with Seadra seems similar to mine except your team is about 4 levels higher than mine in those Gym match-ups. You'll probably sing a different tune when you see those difficult match-ups later.

You seem to be using a lot of items though such as the Grumpig Gym match-up vs Jasmine. Normally in those cases, we just call that a bad match-up and move on, you know. Setting up with items could make it winnable but at that point, isn't your time and resources better spent on finding a different way to win?

Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
1. What difficult matchups though? The E4 is pretty much all there's left and I'm not sure Seadra would do too poorly there, but I'll see. Clair was a nightmare though, although I can't evolve Seadra so it shouldn't penalize Kingdra at all.

2. Lol, I only did it to show that a win is actually possible and even consistently possible. The fact Steels resist Granbull and yet she can still win (yes, she's a girl, so lower Attack IVs if anything) with literally just some healing support is pretty dank. It's not a bad matchup when 'Bull can realistically win with a couple of Hyper Potions and a healing item, at worst I'd say it's below-average. Cyndaquil pre-Ember against Falkner or non-Kingdra Horsea against Clair would be bad matchups IMO, those are nigh unwinnable without extreme luck and/or item spam that would overshadow anything I've done yet. Ernesto, Donphan didn't require many items at all, Granbull however did - I wonder if you're confusing the two lol.

3. I assumed Lance was the end goal, and it makes sense to treat him as such given that most tests seem to ending with him - I was planning to end my test there myself. I honestly don't know whom I would consider the true end goal overall (I usually ended Nuzlockes at Lance anyway given that the credits roll after then, though my latest one ended with Red) but given that Kanto is hard to tier, the credits roll aspect, and the arguments made by other players...I'd say we go with Lance. Excluding Red does change Celebi in Crystal too, you can only get her after beating the E4.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
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Finally, a question to the thread:
Do you all see Red as the end goal or just the Elite Four + Champion? Excluding Red doesn't change much except Snorlax, Houndour, and Celadon Game Corner Larvitar (unless I'm missing some important mons). Kanto is just so open so it's kinda hard to tier except Red.
I personally don't mind doing Kanto, but I will say that you are not going to get anything useful out of testing Red. This is because in 99% of scenarios, you are going to be going to Red in early-mid 50's (as a reasonable assumption) and the most efficient strategy is going to come down to for any given Pokémon:
  1. Use Guard Spec.
  2. Use an X-Item or some setup move when Pikachu uses Charm, heal up on most other attacks Pikachu can use
  3. Repeat until +6 in the relevant stats
  4. Sweep, some things might survive a hit but it's not the end of the world
And it is by far the quickest way to beat Red in any given playthrough (including speedruns though X-Defends aren't really necessary there), since levelling up high enough to not necessitate Battle Items takes far too long, and the only other really viable low level strat is to go full on SadisticMystic and stall for hours on end while Red's Pokémon struggle themselves to death, which is inefficient.
HGSS opted not to test to Red due to several factors. Kanto is post game and by that definition usually isn’t tiered. Kanto is a mess of a region to even attempt to test. There’s isn’t anything to tier in Kanto barring Snorlax (this is shared with GSC), Red is just a stupid fight. It was neat at the time but it’s almost impossible to get even remotely close to his levels and on average you’ll be below by about 20-30 levels. You also run into the issue of burnout. Testing Fatigue is pretty real here and you would be asking for almost 30+ fights that need to be tested.

TL;DR Kanto should not be tested. Just stick with E4 + Champion.
To be honest, GSC Kanto does not really need any level of rigour outside of Blue (and maybe Blaine), since most of the fights are pushovers to the point that you can even use the region to take a breather from testing and just have fun. You don't need rocket science to figure out that someone like Janine falls apart to anything that doesn't hate Poison-types or Brock falling apart to any Grass- or Water-type for example. It's fine to cut corners in Kanto if we are going to go all the way to the point that non-linearity does not matter much at all (which is why I suspect Kanto was included in GSC in the first place? IDK). It's more of a matter of when rigour is necessary and for most of Kanto, it honestly isn't.

This isn't really an argument for or against Kanto in GSC and more "you don't really have to test everything." Also see above for Red not yielding any really useful insights in an efficient playthrough.
 
I personally don't mind doing Kanto, but I will say that you are not going to get anything useful out of testing Red. This is because in 99% of scenarios, you are going to be going to Red in early-mid 50's (as a reasonable assumption) and the most efficient strategy is going to come down to for any given Pokémon:
  1. Use Guard Spec.
  2. Use an X-Item when Pikachu uses Charm, heal up on most other attacks Pikachu can use
  3. Repeat until +6 in the relevant stats
  4. Sweep, some things might survive a hit but it's not the end of the world
And it is by far the quickest way to beat Red in any given playthrough (including speedruns though X-Defends aren't really necessary there), since levelling up high enough to not necessitate Battle Items takes far too long, and the only other really viable low level strat is to go full on SadisticMystic and stall for hours on end while Red's Pokémon struggle themselves to death, which is inefficient.

To be honest, GSC Kanto does not really need any level of rigour outside of Blue (and maybe Blaine), since most of the fights are pushovers to the point that you can even use the region to take a breather from testing and just have fun. You don't need rocket science to figure out that someone like Janine falls apart to anything that doesn't hate Poison-types or Brock falling apart to any Grass- or Water-type for example. It's fine to cut corners in Kanto if we are going to go all the way to the point that non-linearity does not matter much at all (which is why I suspect Kanto was included in GSC in the first place? IDK). It's more of a matter of when rigour is necessary and for most of Kanto, it honestly isn't.

This isn't really an argument for or against Kanto in GSC and more "you don't really have to test everything." Also see above for Red not yielding any really useful insights in an efficient playthrough.
Agreed with all of this. Beating Red really means spamming X-Items, that's literally the optimal way to do it, and given the insane level spike - it's fully justified IMO. Blue is probably the hardest boss you can actually beat without cheese.
 
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That IS a game-changer. With Gold Berry I don't think Miltank can 2HKO Quilava.

My attempts had me at: 36/57, 33/57, 37/57, 48/57 (exceptional luck on that one), and 31/57.

With Miltank's 1st Rollout doing 16, 17 damage and then triggering the Gold Berry, this means it definitely can survive the 2nd Roll and 2HKO.

You still need some luck and you're banking on not getting jammed by Rollout's 90% accuracy for 5 turns in a row, but it changes the MU from "outright bad" to "possible".
An X-Speed also helps tremendously as you will then outspeed Miltank and not get flinched by Stomp. With a Gold Berry, Quilava can take 2 Double Slaps + 1 Stomp from experience.
 
Any other Pokemon that need testing? I'm thinking of testing the early Spearow, Krabby, and/or one of the big bugs in the Bug Catching Contest.

I also would like to support Kioskate's nomination for Zubat (Golbat) as B-Tier based both on their experience and my past experiences raising as well as using one in battle. The Friend Ball and a bit of grinding is enough to evolve them. They're excellent at crushing route stuff as Crobat, put in work against major opponents with solid defenses and decent offense, and can even beat on the random Rock-type with Bite.

Meowth seems unfairly low - D-Tier in this game, seriously? Normal-types are king in this game. I'm gonna have to try using one, they even come right before the Morty gym and can fire off Bites like Granbull (whom I consider a B or C-Tier thus far) while actually outspeeding them better. I would say Growlithe is another Pokemon who is being underranked in spite of having a very solid matchup against many gyms, too good for C.
 
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I think so far, the verdict seems to be
Cyndaquil-> B (remain)
Snubbull (Crystal) -> B (rise)
Tauros -> B (drop)
Vaporeon -> C (rise) or B(rise)
Bellsprout (crystal) -> C (remain) or B (rise)
Spearow -> S (remain) or A(drop)
Onix -> D

Need more opinions on
1) Kingdra / Seadra -> Merge or separate? Which ranks? I'm leaning towards B or C.
2) Pinsir -> I am looking at C for this.
3) Phanpy -> I look at aegon's log and it seemed to indicate a C to me.
4) Wooper -> This really sucks more than I remember. Leaning towards C although I can be convinced to let it be B. Doesn't look like A at all.
5) Sandshrew -> From what I see, this seems like an inferior Geodude so far. It also demands the Dig and Rollout support so you can't use Cyndaquil, for example. Probably C because of Defense Curl + Rollout is cheap.
6) Drowzee -> I am not sure I like its match-ups in this game. It also needs a lot of resources. I think C to remain.
7) Scyther -> This seems similar to Pinsir except it can't use Strength. I think C or D would be fine.
8) Stantler -> This thing has a barren movepool and doesn't do much in Gyms. I am leaning towards C (drop) but can be persuaded to leave it at B.
9) Seel -> Not used this before so no comment.
10) Zubat -> I would rather use the Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat to get Crobat by Lv 21 lol. This does take time and resources as well as the Return TM so I can leave it at C.
11) Gengar -> I forgot about this. Do people think this is A or what? I think it should be downgraded to B or C because it really is deadweight before Lv25. The "defensive prowess" doesn't really help that much.

Once we have reached a consensus, I will update the OP.
 
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I'm doing another run and will probably post the log tomorrow but Sudowoodo should be D tier. I still need to beat the Elite 4 but it loses to Gengar, Poliwrath, Steelix and Kingdra. It also loses to Piloswine if it hits 2 Blizzards before you 4HKO it. It's bad for routes, being so slow I once had to switch it out from a 23 Zubat at level 32 because it confused then flinched me down to 25% from full. A slow physically bulky pokemon isn't relevant in the second half of Johto.
 
Random Passerby, do certain matchups weigh more than others? Typhlosion and Granbull can potentially beat Clair (albeit with x3 Hyper Potion support and a bit of luck, and a paralysis curing item or two in Typhlo's case) and Clair is basically near impossible to solo without items.

Seadra and Donphan can't, I don't even think any of the current S-tiers except MAYBE Trade-Fearow can.
 
Yeah, some match-ups actually have higher weightage imo. Example: having a good match-up against Koga and Bruno doesn't count so much as they're not that difficult compared to say Clair. I'm not asking for a solo though, I'm just looking mainly at what the mon can do against difficult roadblocks such as Scyther, Miltank, Kingdra, Machamp, and Dragonite.

I'm also looking at what others are saying. A few other players have said Cyndaquil feels more B. Only you and Ernesto feels differently from what I can tell so I'm just following the trend. If you look at my log, you can see that Quilava couldn't do much for me during the Morty, Chuck, and Jasmine phase.
 
Yeah, some match-ups actually have higher weightage imo. Example: having a good match-up against Koga and Bruno doesn't count so much as they're not that difficult compared to say Clair. I'm not asking for a solo though, I'm just looking mainly at what the mon can do against difficult roadblocks such as Scyther, Miltank, Kingdra, Machamp, and Dragonite.

I'm also looking at what others are saying. A few other players have said Cyndaquil feels more B. Only you and Ernesto feels differently from what I can tell so I'm just following the trend. If you look at my log, you can see that Quilava couldn't do much for me during the Morty, Chuck, and Jasmine phase.
Fair!

I'll take a look at your log hopefully soon - I'm about to challenge the E4 and will be testing each mon.

Will

Granbull (L42): OHKOed Xatu 1 with Return while getting critical hitted by Psychic (Pink Bow Return > Shadow Ball here according to calcs) to red and getting my Sp. Def lowered. Found myself swapping out. Oh well, try one didn't go so well...so I resetted the game.

Try 2. Got confused on my first turn and Psychiced on the second, failed to break out and healed with a Full Restore. Got confused again and Psychiced again to red but broke out and took Xatu out in one hit with Return. Got hit by Jynx's Psychic, weakening my Sp. Def, as I healed with Full Restore. Got KOed subsequently.

Try 3. Got critical hitted by Xatu 1 but took him down with Return. Jynx hits me with Psychic as I heal with a Max Potion and goes down to Return after missing Lovely Kiss. In comes Exeggutor...who to my complete shock outspeeds me and KOes me with Psychic.

Verdict: Don't use Granbull here, arguably a D-Rank. Nearly everyone outpaces you, can status you, 3HKO with Psychic, and worse if they stat drop. Slowbro can Curse to bulk up, making taking him down relatively annoying. Granbull can beat any of them 1-on-1, but that's pretty much it.

Donphan (L41): Gets outsped and beaten down by Psychic, fire off a Flail that keeps Xatu in the green (ruh oh).

Verdict: Don't use Donphan here, arguably D-Rank. See Granbull verdict for more.

Seadra (L41): Somehow does even worse than the first two, losing to Xatu 1's Psychic (2HKO without critical hit), albeit doing heavy damage with Rain-boosted Surf but failing to one-shot.

Verdict: See above. D-Rank arguably. Seadra sure has no chance against the higher leveled Xatu or Slowbro, Jynx hits harder than Xatu, and Exeggutor hits even harder while resisting Rainsurf. Won't bother, didn't bother.

Typhlosion (L42): OHKOs Xatu with Fire Blast, 3HKOs Slowbro with Thunderpunch through Amnesia while tanking a Psychic, misses a Fire Blast from Xatu and gets Psychiced to yellow but OHKOs with the next Fire Blast, OHKOs Jynx with Fire Blast, and OHKOs Exeggutor with Fire Punch.

OHKOs Xatu 1 again the same way, bring Slowbro to yellow with non-crit Thunderpunch and paralyze in one hit, eat a critical Psychic that brings me to yellow, but bring Slowbro down with two more Thunderpunches. Xatu 2 comes in, dodges a Fire Blast, and brings me to 3 HP with Psychic - I heal up immediately. Xatu then uses...Quick Attack in a fail bid to revenge KO me. I OHKO Xatu 2 with Fire Blast. Fire Punch OHKOs Exeggutor. I level up to L44 during the fight and OHKO Jynx with Fire Punch.

OHKO Xatu 1 as before, 2HKO Slowbro with Thunderpunch (who inexplicably uses Curse), OHKO Xatu 2 with Fire Blast, OHKO Jynx with Fire Punch, and does likewise to Exeggutor.

Verdict? Very reliable at finishing Will off (only needing healing in 1/3 rounds), so A-Tier.

At best you'll need one or maaaaybeeeee two Full Restores, but I didn't even need a single healing item 2/3 of the time.

Koga

Granbull (L42): OHKO and speedblitz Ariados with Return, eat a Toxic from Venomoth and bring him down in one, beat Forretress after healing the poison with a Full Heal and had my initial Return blocked by Protect, using Charm to weaken his Attack after he hits me with Swift (anticipating an Explosion or Selfdestruct, which indeed happened right after and which I survived while entering the yellow). Forrretress takes little damage from Return and set up Spikes. Muk comes in, so I use a Max Potion on Granbull, eat a Sludge Bomb which poisons me but keeps me in the green, bring Muk to red with Return while he uses Minimize, heal up with Full Restore, Tank a non-poison Sludge Bomb and KO Muk with a second Return. 2HKO Crobat with Return while tanking two Wing Attacks.

Round two. Ariados BARELY survives Return and sets up Double Team. I one-shot with Shadow Ball. I tank a Psychic from Venomoth which doesn't do much damage and one-shot with Return. Forretress eats a Charm and sets up Spikes, I Charm again and he gets a critical hit on Swift, bringing me to yellow. I heal up with a Max Potion just to be safe. He fires a Swift that does very tiny damage. I bring him to yellow with two Returns, KO with two more while tanking Swifts with very little damage. 2HKOs Muk through Minimize. 2HKO Crobat through Double Team while tanking Wing Attac.

Round 3. Ariados BARELY survives Return and sets up Double Team, only to be Shadow Balled anyway. Venomoth Toxics me and I misclick Shadow Ball which brings him to the yellow, I tank Psychic and KO with Return. Forretress comes in and deflects my first Charm with Protect, then hits me with Swift for little damage while Charmed. I heal up with a Full Restore and use Charm as they use Protect (failed) twice. I 4HKO Forretress while taking puny amounts of damage from Swift. Return still 2HKOs Muk through Minimize and I 3HKO Crobat with Return - 3HKO because Koga uses a Full Restore this time - while falling to the red?

Verdict? A-Tier, easily. Can handily solo this matchup with one Full Restore.

Seadra (L41): Set up Rainsurf. Miss my first Surf against Ariados due to Double Team being active, get Spider Webbed after missing, and OHKO with Rainsurf. Surf 2HKOs Venomoth and I dodge a Supersonic. Rain peters out but I set it up back against Forretress who Spikes, nearly OHKO with Surf and tank Swift, 2HKO Muk through MInimize, Icy Wind Crobat through Double Team but without bringing him to the yellow, I tank Wing Attack and KO with Rainsurf.

2HKO Ariados with non-Rain Surf through Double Team. 2HKOs Venomoth with Rainsurf and get poisoned by Toxic while dodging Supersonic. Forretress blocks first Surf with Protect and barely survives the second, Protects against a 3rd and goes down to a 4th while my Seadra enters the yellow zone. Muk tanks a non-rain Surf while in the green and brings me to the red with poison, Minimize shenanigans, and Sludge Bomb. Get brought down to red again by Sludge Bombs but take Muk out. Full Restore before Crobat, but it didn't matter as Crobat poisoned me with Toxic and brought me down with Double Team + Wing Attack shenanigans.

OHKO Ariados with a critical hit, non-rain Surf. Set up Rain, dodge Toxic, and 2HKO Venomoth with Surf. Forretress eats a Surf that nearly wipes him out and gets wiped out by the next one anyway. Rain stops against Muk, so I set it up again while Muk uses...ACID ARMOR?! I just 2HKO with Surf. I 2HKO Crobat with Surf through Double Team and dodge a Toxic.

Easily B-Tier in this matchup. Crobat's speed can be annoying.

Donphan (L41): Set up Curlout and 2HKO Ariados but while being brought to the yellow by x2 Giga Drain. Venomoth misses Supersonic and gets crushed. Forretress comes in and shuts Curlout with Protect 1st turn, and I heal up with a Max Potion. I then 3HKO Forretress with Rollout, not using Defense Curl again, while tanking Swifts. Crobat uses Double Team but still gets rolled over. Muk goes down too it looks like.

Earthquake brings Ariados to red, Ariados uses Double Team, and I KO with a second Earthquake. Venomoth misses a Supersonic and is brought to red by EQ. Venomoth brings me to yellow with a critical hit Psychic and gets KOed by Flail. Heal against Forretress with Max Potion, brings Forretress to yellow with Rollout until he realizes he can Protect and does that, and I nearly KO Forretress with an EQ...wait, he exploded? NOOO! I faint. That's why you should ALWAYS Defense Curl before fighting Forretress.

Earthquake 2HKOs Ariados through Double Team, Venomoth misses Supersonic again and a Toxic while being 2HKOed by EQ. I Defense Curl against Forretress and eventually get a Rollout going that KOes him and KOs Crobat in one hit through Double Team and Muk too.

Verdict? Easily A-Tier. Just be careful of Forretress's Explosion if you already lost HP against Ariados and/or Venomoth - make sure to heal up and use Defense Curl once 'Tress comes in, in any case.

Typhlosion (L44): OHKOs Ariados with Fire Punch, OHKOs Forretress with it, hits Muk through Minimize with Sunnyblast and nearly OHKOs him. I tank a Sludge Bomb while in the green but get poisoned, but I finish Muk off through Minimize with Fire Punch. I outpace Crobat and one-shot with SunnyBlast. I think Fire Punch one-shotted Venomoth.

OHKOs Ariados with Fire Punch, OHKO Forretress with Sunnypunch, nearly OHKO AND burn Muk with Sunnyblast and...KO him anyway through burn damage. Muk uses Minimize, uselessly. Sunnyblasts Crobat for the OHKO after outpacing him. Sunnypunch crushes Venomoth.

Ariados and Forretress go down as in round 2, miss Fire Blast 3 or 4 times while taking a Sludge Bomb and getting poisoned by either that or Toxic (I forgot), but I manage to set up Sunny Day again and burn Muk with Sunnypunch as well as bring him to yellow through Minimize. I finish Muk off with Sunnypunch. Sunnyblast OHKOs Crobat.

Verdict? Easily A-Tier, possibly even S. Typhlosion didn't need a SINGLE healing item to kick their butts like each and every time. Not that it hurts.

Bruno:

Seadra (L41): Eat two Digs for little damage and two-shot the spinning top Pokemon with Rainsurf. Rain stops against Hitmonchan, I get brought down to low yellow by a Thunderpunch, I heal with a Full Restore and would've two-shotted 'Chan back...if not for a critical hit Thunderpunch :(

Fire off a Surf that brings Hitmontop to red with a critical hit and even with no rain, use Dig turn to set Rain. KO Top with Rainsurf on my second attempt after getting blocked by Detect. Get brought to yellow by Thunderpunch but 2HKO Hitmonchan. Heal with a Max Potion against Lee and tank a High Jump Kick while still in the green, use Smokescreen and get Lee to miss his next kick for a bit of self-damage. Set rain back up, heal with a Max Potion after getting hit by another High Jump Kick, tank a Double Kick, and crush Lee with two Surfs. Machamp appears and I Max Potion up again and again and again against Cross Chop until Champ finally misses. I set up rain and get crushed by a critical hit Cross Chop :(

Bring Hitmontop's HP down but still in green with non-rain Surf, set up Rain while he hits me with Dig, and wipe him out with Surf, 2HKO 'Chan while going to yellow with a Thunderpunch, set Rain up while eating a HJK in green and then get brought to red by Double Kick, heal up with a Max Potion and bring Lee to yellow with Surf but get brought down to red by a critical hit HJK. Realizing that I need rain to have a shot at 2HKOing Machamp, I plan on waiting out the rain's end, and I spam a few Full Restores until that happens. I set rain back up while entering red, use Full Restore again, eat a HJK but stay in green, KO Lee, bring 'Champ to yellow with Rainsurf...and then get critted by Cross Chop :(

Verdict? C-Tier. Seadra can actually beat everyone here more or less consistently (be it 1-on-1 or Seadra fighting everyone else gauntlet style) except Machamp and the only way he can beat Machamp is if he is somehow completely undamaged and the rain will be up for two more turns.

Donphan (L41): Set up Defense Curl against Hitmontop, tanks Dig, and 2HKOs with EQ (even through Dig). Tank Ice Punch and bring 'Chan to red with EQ, tank a second Ice Punch but into the yellow and KO with second EQ. Hitmonlee appears and I Max Potion up. Set up Rollout on Hitmonlee while tanking all his attacks in the green and KO. Bring Machamp to red, eat a Cross Chop into the yellow, and OHKO Machamp outright after Bruno heals with a Max Potion. Onix's EQ is tanked for pitiful damage and I nearly OHKO with EQ, but I'm in the red so I Max Potion up and fire off a second EQ for the win.

OHKO Hitmontop through Dig with EQ, 2HKOs Hitmonchan with EQ while taking two Ice Punches into the yellow, set up a Defense Curl while eating a HJK into the red, heal with a Max Potion, outpace Machamp and bring him to red with Curlout only to be brought to 2 HP by Cross Chop, and then crush him OHKO outright after Bruno heals with Max Potion. Heal up with a Max Potion myself against Onix who is faster and OHKO with EQ.

Third try goes the same as the second, though I decide to use EQ instead of Curlout to be safer in spite of setting up 2-3 Defense Curls (forgot the exact number). EQ OHKOs Hitmonlee and brings Machamp, who is FIVE LEVELS ABOVE, to yellow and fails to kill me with Cross Chop apart from driving me into the yellow. I heal with a Max Potion, Machamp misses Cross Chop, and I KO with a second EQ. I occasionally though not always outpaced Champ, fun fact. Onix is a joke and gets 2HKOed (nearly OHKOed).

Verdict? A-Tier, and you honestly don't need Rollout, I'd argue it's riskier than just going with EQ. Just 2, maybe 3 Max Potions (maybe one can be a Full Restore for Chan statuses), but 2 should suffice for the Defense Curl and Earthquake strategy - 2 were enough for even a Curlout strategy once!

Granbull (L42): No.

Typhlosion (L45, as he's been my ace so far and allowed me to conserve the most items): Fire Punch sends Hitmontop straight into the yellow and I set up Sunny Day during the Dig, which I tank in the green and fire off a Sunnypunch for a KO. Sunnypunch OHKOs Onix. Sunnyblast OHKOs Machamp. The Sun fades but Hitmonchan falls to red from a normal Fire Blast anyway, Mach Punching me twice into the yellow though. Thunderpunch KOs after that IIRC.

Second try goes mostly the same...except Onix BARELY survives Sunnypunch, fires off a Sandstorm and forces me to reset Sunny Day, Earthquakes me into the red. I heal up with a Max Potion and Onix hits again, although I stay in the green before bonking him with Sunnypunch. Sunnyblast OHKOs Machamp again. Hitmonlee gets OHKOed, and a non-Sun boosted Fire Blast + Thunderpunch combo does Hitmonchan in who can only bring me to yellow with two Mach Punches.

Third try goes the same way as the second, except this time Hitmonchan crits me with a Mach Punch and I heal up with a Max Potion before 2HKOing with Fire Punch (yes, Fire Punch can 2HKO, Chan has the same special bulk as Top).

Fourth try (without Fire Blast, just to test if I needed it) went the same way as the first up till Machamp, who got 2HKOed by Sunnypunch and missed a Rock Slide. I then 2HKOed Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan in quick succession with Fire Punch, healing up with a Max Potion against Lee...who hit me with Double Kick and High Jump Kick (or was it another Double Kick?), which I survived. Looks like you don't even need Fire Blast to beat Bruno, huh - though it makes the Machamp and Onix at least MUCH easier to beat. You definitely need it to OHKO Machamp who otherwise hits hard with Rock Slide.

Verdict? A-Tier, only not S because of the risk of missing a Fire Blast (which I never did, huh) and you might need a Max Potion or two.*

Lance

Donphan (L41): Surf GG. This was true all three times, though the first two times Gyarados tries to set up rain. Donphan COULD beat the Thunder D-Nite and Aerodactyl reliably from what I know, however, so no lower or higher than C-Tier.

Granbull (L42): 2HKOs Gyarados with Return, even tanking rain-boosted Surfs reliably (2HKO at best, possible 3HKO). Dragonites reliably get two-shotted by Return and Scary Face + Charm can be used to ruin them while taking advantage of their attacks' shoddy accuracy and Hyper Beam's recharge turns - neither can one-shot Granbull, it must be stated. This all applies to Aerodactyl too, though the Thunder D-Nite at least can be unpredictable with whether it use Thunder or Hyper Beam after the other, which can catch you by surprise. Charizard is the only consistent threat, outspeeding you and 2HKOing with Flamethrower, and there's nothing you can do about it as it's a special attack with accuracy and no recharge. C-Tier.

Seadra (L41): Easily exploits Gyarados with Smokescreen spam based on the iffy accuracy of Hyper Beam, resisting his other main moves, and taking little from Flail at high HP. Is able to eventually but reliably beat Gyarados down with Surf spam, albeit with healing items, while his accuracy is reduced. Can only 2HKO the Dragons however and gets one-shotted by Thunder and/or Outrage, so he can only reliably beat the Blizzard D-Nite, Zard, Gyarados, and Aerodactyl. C-Tier, a high one at that though.

Typhlosion (L47): OHKOs Gyarados with Thunderpunch, outpaces Aerodactyl and 2HKOs with Thunderpunch while dodging Rock Slide, take out a Dragonite with a Sunnyblast and Sunnypunch combo in spite of getting paralyzed and eating a Hyper Beam into yellow. Dodge another Dragonite's Hyper Beam and bring into yellow with Sunnyblast, tank a Hyper Beam into the green, set up Sun during recharge turn and KO with Sunnyblast next thing. I tank Charizard's own sun-boosted Flamethrower and blast off nearly all his HP using Thunderpunch. I heal with a Max Potion, intent on bringing sun back before I fight the L50 Dragonite. I tank a Hyper Beam while in the green. The sun fades as Charizard recharges, and I drop him with a Thunderpunch. In comes the Dragonite, who hits me with Outrage into the green as I heat up the battlefield. Sunnyblast falls just short of a 2HKO, I tank an Outrage into the yellow, I heal. Dragonite gets confused and hits me with Outrage. I fire off another blast and he falls to red and I tank an Outrage. I then Fire Punch for the win.

Thunderpunch OHKOs Gyarados, Aerodactyl gets outpaced and OHKOed by critical hit Thunderpunch, Dragonite gets two-shotted with Sunnyblast after paralyzing and Hyper Beaming me into the yellow. I heal and tank a Hyper Beam from Dragonite 2 into the green to set up Sunny Day again and Sunnyblast him for a 2HKO, had to heal a couple or so times with Full Restores to prevent being KOed by a stray critical hit as well as safely Sunnyblast D-Nite. I Thunderpunch Zard into low health, eat a Flamethrower and a Hyper Beam without much damage, set up sun during the recharge time, and finish with Thunderpunch again. I then 2HKO L50 Dragonite with Sunnyblast, with Dragonite fainting to a crit hit on the second.

Round 3 goes mostly the same, except Aerodactyl now knocks me into the yellow with Rock Slide, but I still outpace and 2HKO with Thunderpunch. I heal once D-Nite appears, who misses his first Hyper Beam and hits me with the second only after I set up Sunnyblast, which crits and brings him to red, after which I KO him with Sunnypunch. In comes D-Nite 2 and...he crits me with his Hyper Beam as I move to heal. :(

Round 4 (my final round, not even a test) goes the same way as Round 3 up till D-Nite 2, whose Hyper Beam and charge turns I exploit to Sunnyblast him for a 2HKO and then Thunderpunch Charizard, paralyzing him and tanking a subsequent Hyper Beam into the red, after which I move to heal as Zard recharges. Thunderpunch brings him down. D-Nite 3 comes in, set up sun again, 2HKO with Sunnyblast, heal with Full Restores every time once Outrage pushes me into yellow, and then D-Nite's confusion damage combined with a burn - which if anything likely reduced the self-confusion damage - did him in once he was knocked into red by a critical hit Sunnyblast.

2/3 (or 3/4 depending on how you're keeping score) isn't bad at all for Typhlosion or any single mon (keep in mind we're talking about the Champion here), and it certainly challenges the idea Typhlosion is actually bad at this matchup as so many people have argued. Typhlo's firepower and speed are ridic. You just need a good number of Max Potions. This is gonna shock people, but I'm going to say Typhlosion's actual ranking for Lance is a B. That's insane, given that he is LITERALLY the only mon I used for his test. You can literally beat him fairly reliably (though not guaranteed) with Sunnyblast + Thunderpunch hijinks, you just gotta get plenty of Max Potions lol (fewer than 10 should do). It's LESS shaky than the Karen matchup and EASIER to win. Remember what I said about Typhlo vs Clair? It applies to Typhlo vs Clair's stronger cousin.

No switching. No X-Items, even though a single X-Special would have had roughly the same effect as Sunny Day but not required me to keep wasting turns on replenishing the Sun. No excess Calciums, the only Calciums I remember using came straight from the wild. Typhlo, as far as I'm concerned, can literally solo 3/4 of the Elite Four with healing support (even Feraligatr and Alakazam need that support btw) and has very solid odds at powering through the Champion himself. He can give Karen a fight and crush her entire team PROVIDED you switch out to deal with the Sand-Attack shenanigans. And as far as Gym Leaders go, I and others have established Quilava can beat Whitney, I have established Quilava actually stands a decent chance of soloing Morty with small item support and the Dig TM, and can reliably beat Jasmine as well as Pryce.

Typhlosion can also have a 1/3 chance of beating Clair, which is insane given both Clair's difficulty as a trainer and the fact Typhlosion is at a bad matchup here all around, he beats Bugsy pretty much by default even as Volt was forced to admit, and he can beat Falkner with Ember if you're willing to shell out just one level's worth of training in the wild. The only major opponent he struggles against is Chuck, whom he assuredly loses to and cannot defeat in a normal playthrough under most circumstances. I'm not sure even S-Class Totodile can claim to be this efficient, given that Totodile does far worse against Bugsy (and should honestly lose outright if he doesn't evolve, which is very possible) and would likely be incapable of soling E4 Pokemon outright like Typhlosion could do, to say nothing of brute forcing through resists with resisted attacks.

Feraligatr's Surf, even Rain-boosted, is significantly weaker than Typhlosion's Sun-boosted Fire Blast to the point I could see it swinging matchups (to give you an idea, Feraligatr's Surf is but slightly stronger than Typhlosion's Fire Punch and the latter cannot reliably OHKO Hitmons without Sun whereas the Sun-boosted Fire Blast OHKOed them and the more durable Machamp.

I think so far, the verdict seems to be
Cyndaquil-> B (remain)
Snubbull (Crystal) -> B (rise)
Tauros -> B (drop)
Vaporeon -> C (rise) or B(rise)
Bellsprout (crystal) -> C (remain) or B (rise)
Spearow -> S (remain) or A(drop)
Onix -> D

Need more opinions on
1) Kingdra / Seadra -> Merge or separate? Which ranks? I'm leaning towards B or C.
2) Pinsir -> I am looking at C for this.
3) Phanpy -> I look at aegon's log and it seemed to indicate a C to me.
4) Wooper -> This really sucks more than I remember. Leaning towards C although I can be convinced to let it be B. Doesn't look like A at all.
5) Sandshrew -> From what I see, this seems like an inferior Geodude so far. It also demands the Dig and Rollout support so you can't use Cyndaquil, for example. Probably C because of Defense Curl + Rollout is cheap.
6) Drowzee -> I am not sure I like its match-ups in this game. It also needs a lot of resources. I think C to remain.
7) Scyther -> This seems similar to Pinsir except it can't use Strength. I think C or D would be fine.
8) Stantler -> This thing has a barren movepool and doesn't do much in Gyms. I am leaning towards C (drop) but can be persuaded to leave it at B.
9) Seel -> Not used this before so no comment.
10) Zubat -> I would rather use the Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat to get Crobat by Lv 21 lol. This does take time and resources as well as the Return TM so I can leave it at C.
11) Gengar -> I forgot about this. Do people think this is A or what? I think it should be downgraded to B or C because it really is deadweight before Lv25. The "defensive prowess" doesn't really help that much.

Once we have reached a consensus, I will update the OP.
1) Separate for sure. Seadra/Kingdra likely wouldn't shift places too much for Clair or anyone before her (though both are much too strong to deserve being in D), but there is a pretty significant difference once you hit the E4. Kingdra's much superior special bulk and HP would allow him to perform much better against Will and the superior HP likely might help against Bruno too to some extent, not sure. I have yet to complete Karen and Lance so I can't speak to those fights yet, though Kingdra would be far better against the former for sure due to the heightened special bulk and not fear the latter's Thunders (Outrage is a problem to Seadra or Kingdra).

2) Pinsir, Scyther, and Heracross all arguably deserve to be in B - Heracross especially due to being a reliable Whitney crusher with tons of bulk that make even Clefairy easy to set up on in my experience. The first two also picks up SD at L42 or so, allowing them to potentially become sweeping machines in the endgame at least.

3) C sounds fine, though Donphan may also have a case for being in B. Donphan can beat up route stuff just about as well as Raticate and Furret and is at least as good if not better against a similar number of bosses. EQ hits like a truck at the E4 and neither of those two Normal types can match that, Donphan's EQ is very close to max power Return in strength and comes off a far higher Attack score. High Defense and the ability to bulk up further with Defense Curl is also really cool. Raticate and Furret meanwhile have much higher speed and a better all-around typing as well as offensive STAB especially in this game. I'd say Donphan's ability to exploit Curlout to the point of beating people like Jasmine and Bruno is something Furret can't reliably claim to share, and I'd say Donphan would be far worse at beating up Clair's Pokemon or Morty's.

Lvl 40 0 Atk Donphan Return vs. Lvl 40 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 37-44 (26 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (37, 37, 38, 38, 39, 39, 40, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42, 42, 43, 43, 44)

Lvl 40 0 Atk Furret Return vs. Lvl 40 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 39-46 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 40, 42, 42, 42, 43, 43, 43, 45, 45, 45, 46)

4) Wooper belongs in B at worst, mediocre Attack stats coupled with average defenses and bad speed make him unworthy of S. However, his excellent typing, early evolution, versatility, and good gym matchups against Whitney, Jasmine, and to an extent everyone not called Bugsy might keep him in A tho. C is way too low.

5) Sandshrew is also much faster than Geodude and can use Fury Cutter to build up momentum for beating certain opponents while also fearing special attacks less. I do think Geodude has better overall matchups though so B sounds fairer. I would like to test him one day.

6) Drowzee seems more like a jack of all trades, master of none. Not sure either, but no lower than C imo.

7) Lol no at D. C MIGHT work but even that I'm skeptical of. Needs a trial.

8) Idk either. I used to think C but Granbull's high attack and low speed combination make me just a bit softer on Stantler, although Granbull is so good in part because of her high HP and supplementary ability and ability to persevere in nearly any and every gym, something Stantler lacks.

C sounds better, I guess.

9) Seel - Same lol.

10) Zubat - The resource use isn't too bad, just get you a Drowzee and bop him or her with Hypnosis and throw a Friend Ball.

11) Gengar - Idk.
 
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An X-Speed also helps tremendously as you will then outspeed Miltank and not get flinched by Stomp. With a Gold Berry, Quilava can take 2 Double Slaps + 1 Stomp from experience.
Ew steroids. :blobnauseated:


4) Wooper -> This really sucks more than I remember. Leaning towards C although I can be convinced to let it be B. Doesn't look like A at all.
I'm testing it. The Wooper phase is really awkward. The stats just aren't there, but you get so many advantageous matchups in routes that it pulls its weight well.

When it comes to major battles tho... Struggling to KO Bugsy's Kakuna and Metapod ain't a good look at all. Wooper got no offensive power at all.

It just evolved tho, let's see how much it improves.

Cyndaquil-> B (remain)
I still think it can drop to C, but I'm still testing, so we'll need to see about that.

Spearow -> S (remain) or A(drop)
Spearow's Gym Matchups are a little suspect imo, it already hit a speed bump at Whitney, if definitely wants none of Jasmine's stuff and I'm not sure it can beat Pryce.

If it can't, that's 3 Gym matchups it folds to their ace. That's not an S-tier in my book.

Bellsprout (crystal) -> C (remain) or B (rise)
C for me. Having to spam status and Growth to beat *anything* is neither efficient nor entertaining. Vine Whip sucks.

11) Gengar -> I forgot about this. Do people think this is A or what? I think it should be downgraded to B or C because it really is deadweight before Lv25. The "defensive prowess" doesn't really help that much.
Absolutely not A. I'm leaning towards it being at C because it's just abysmal at route clearing.

10) Zubat -> I would rather use the Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat to get Crobat by Lv 21 lol. This does take time and resources as well as the Return TM so I can leave it at C.
Of course, the Friend Ball helps a lot, but maybe there's merit in catching it in a normal ball and letting it go to town on Morty's Gym with Bite to get that friendship.

Otherwise you need to wait until Surf, get a Green Apricorn, backtrack allllll the way to Kurt, reset the date to get the ball, get the Return TM at Goldenrod, go back to Mt. Mortar and then catch it.

Compared to: Pick the Return TM while you're at Goldenrod, catch a Golbat and immediately start using it.

Needs testing tho.
 
I haven't double checked but I'm sure wild Golbats are only available in the middle section of Mt. Mortar so you need Surf for it. Otherwise, you are just getting Zubats. This is Crystal exclusive.

I think C for Cyndaquil is way too low. One or two items to sweep sounds good to me. Even Feraligatr needs items to clean Lance.
 
I haven't double checked but I'm sure wild Golbats are only available in the middle section of Mt. Mortar so you need Surf for it. Otherwise, you are just getting Zubats. This is Crystal exclusive.

I think C for Cyndaquil is way too low. One or two items to sweep sounds good to me. Even Feraligatr needs items to clean Lance.
I can’t tell exactly what you meant by the Golbat line, but I can confirm I ran into a Golbat just inside the Ecruteak entrance the other day, so Surf was not necessary in Crystal.
 
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C for Cyndaquil is downright criminal, no offense to Volt. This guy can all but solo the E4 (yes, even Bruno and Lance included) with ability I'd even hesitate to say the current S-Class Pokemon can match - and very few A-Class Pokemon can match - and we're putting him in C? That's just cap, straight up. Even his midgame matchups are actually not bad at all and he beats Pryce, Jasmine, and (possessing Dig) Morty pretty reliably. Fury Cutter and Dig are literally the only TMs I gave to him that might actually be considered major, and Dig the only really competitive one. Ernesto noted his midgame for Cyndaquil was ''better than he remembered'' and given the sheer amount of strategies available or trouncing the midgame gym leaders that aren't even hard to get (Rock Smash + Return being a viable anti-Pryce strategy in his book), that's honestly awesome.

Who's the only Gym Leader Cynda can't beat? Chuck? Loool. Even the S-Class mons all run into unfortunate matchups, one or even more.

Also, my logs are officially complete. Please check my very last post :)

Here are my rankings. I stayed up all night to get this done, but here are my very quick rankings.

:gs/cyndaquil: B to A
:gs/phanpy: D to C minimum, B maximum
:gs/snubbull: (Crystal) C to B
:gs/horsea: (Seadra, Non-Trade): D to C
 
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Not to be that guy, but when Volt is done testing Cyndaquil can we please just get a consensus on it and then try to stop talking about the mon?

I mean, I know it’s a starter, but it’s been suffocating discussion for most of like the last 10 pages and I don’t think anything major about the mon has been discovered in that time. We all know it can’t sweep Whitney, can’t sweep Chuck, last I checked it can’t kill Morty fast, and I don’t think any casual player would bother using it on Clair or Lance - except for maybe Thunderpunching Lance’s Gyarados.

Plus, the wait for Flame Wheel is just agonizing. It’s not on the Meganium level of C but it’s for certain not A. B is perfect for it.

I just think we’re beating a dead horse at this point and it seriously needs to be settled soon - we’re just going in circles repeating most of what we already know.
 
There's no way Zubat should be ranked based on being caught right before Morty. With a Friend Ball Golbat needs 7 levels to evolve and starts off with an 80 BP Return. Without it won't evolve for the Elite 4, needing 39 levels, or about 33 with Gym Leader boosts and a haircut. It doesn't get Headbutt so Swift will be the best move until you gain 80 Friendship, which will take close to 20 levels.

Unless people are arguing you reset the clock over 40 haircuts catch up to the Friend Ball boost or 50 to evolve it..

If people are going to rank Wooper calling the first 4 gyms bad match ups it chould be ranked assuming it's caught after Morty. It has a 30% encounter at 20-24 on route 32, which isn't too far out of the way.

I didn't test Scyther on the Elite 4 but it beats Whitney, loses to Morty, Chuck and Jasmine, beats Pryce and can't even beat Dragonair at 34, although might have been able to beat 1 at 37. Wing Attack is 35 BP so it basically doesn't have STAB. I can't imagine it beating Dragonite, Charizard, Aerodactyl, or Houndoom and probably dies to Machamp's Rock Slide. It does probably trade itself 1 for 1 against Will and might be able to set up and sweep Koga.

It is better than a lot of C but personally I think a a third or so of C could drop.

What would people think of moving half of E into F so that C and D can be divided into C D and E?
 
There's no way Zubat should be ranked based on being caught right before Morty. With a Friend Ball Golbat needs 7 levels to evolve and starts off with an 80 BP Return. Without it won't evolve for the Elite 4, needing 39 levels, or about 33 with Gym Leader boosts and a haircut. It doesn't get Headbutt so Swift will be the best move until you gain 80 Friendship, which will take close to 20 levels.

Unless people are arguing you reset the clock over 40 haircuts catch up to the Friend Ball boost or 50 to evolve it..
Zubat can be obtained in Dark Cave at a very low level if you opt to not go Friend Ball. It might be difficult to have Crobat at Morty, yes. But I don’t think it would need to take to the E4 to have one.
 
I haven't double checked but I'm sure wild Golbats are only available in the middle section of Mt. Mortar so you need Surf for it. Otherwise, you are just getting Zubats. This is Crystal exclusive.

I think C for Cyndaquil is way too low. One or two items to sweep sounds good to me. Even Feraligatr needs items to clean Lance.
Nope. Bats can be gotten on the Ecruteak entrance as well. It's the same 1st floor.

I'm still testing Quilava, don't worry about it for now.

There's no way Zubat should be ranked based on being caught right before Morty. With a Friend Ball Golbat needs 7 levels to evolve and starts off with an 80 BP Return. Without it won't evolve for the Elite 4, needing 39 levels, or about 33 with Gym Leader boosts and a haircut. It doesn't get Headbutt so Swift will be the best move until you gain 80 Friendship, which will take close to 20 levels.
Chill, I just said it was worth testing too just to make sure.
 
Zubat can be obtained in Dark Cave at a very low level if you opt to not go Friend Ball. It might be difficult to have Crobat at Morty, yes. But I don’t think it would need to take to the E4 to have one.
I actually tested this first when I wanted to use Zubat. At level 4 it can't beat a 3 Bellsprout trainer without Struggle. At 11 it needs 3 X Defend and 2 X attack, wether you use leech life or struggle, needing to hit 12 to take it down reasonably with Bite, which means grinding wilds.
At 15 it sweeps the rival if it has Bayleef and at 16 Scyther's Quick Attack 4HKO's while Bite 6HKO's.
At 19 I couldn't beat half the trainers in Whitneys gym from full without potions and evolving and facing Miltank at 22.

Golbat needs 220 Friendship to evolve and starts at 70 unless caught with a Friend Ball which makes it 200. Leveling up from 100-200 is +3 Friendship while Gym Leaders give you 2 Friendship and you get 1 for every 512 steps. If we say it gains at least 6 levels before Falkner it'll get 14 Friendship from Gyms before Clair needing another 29 levels. Take 1 level off for you hair cut and steps and you need to be level 35 for 200, making Return 80 BP. From there with Clair, a second haircut and another couple from steps you should evolve to Crobat at 43.

Even if you want to argue that early Zubat is viable you can't say it's so much better that it would affect ranking.

Chill, I just said it was worth testing too just to make sure.
Sorry if I came across as harsh, if someone wants to use an early Zubat for fun they're more than welcome to. I just wanted to share the math I did during my testing. I'm not trying to say someone is stupid or something for using early Zubat, just that it's not optimal.
 
Sorry if I came across as harsh, if someone wants to use an early Zubat for fun they're more than welcome to. I just wanted to share the math I did during my testing. I'm not trying to say someone is stupid or something for using early Zubat, just that it's not optimal.
Nah, it's all good. Just wasn't sure if you weren't overreacting.

Saw your math though. Looks legit. Yeah, the Friend Ball is a must then. Guess it misses out on Morty and requires a huge backtrack.

With this considered, C sounds like a sensible guess to it. How are its matchups post-Morty?

Chuck sounds like a free win, Jasmine is no deal, Pryce is a slugfest, but Crobat is fairly bulky...

Now I *really* wanna test it.
 
Tonight, on Days of our Tiers...

Wooper beat Sudowoodo.

Kimono Girls got Sand-Attack everywhere. Can't even blame the slow mons too much because Jolteon and Espeon are fast af.

Got a Geodude for HM Duty. In hindsight, I really should've used Sudowoodo instead, but then I realized Quilava could use Rock Smash for a while instead since it had Leer on the 4th slot.

All mons are at Lv. 20.

Attempt 1 - Tried to get a sweep rolling with Quilava. It missed on the 1st roll, Haunter used Curse. So much for that idea. Reset.

Attempt 2 - Ember is a 4HKO. Can't prevent the Curse. 1st Roll does 15, 20%. Still took Curse damage. Let's see who's next.

Croconaw. 3rd roll did about 35%. Took Curse damage, 24HP left, got KO'd by Water Gun. Sweep not possible. Let's try someone else.

Attempt 3 - Fearow's Peck does between 35 and 40% on Haunter. Curse up.
Silver sends out Magnemite. Might as well test whether or not Return or Swift does more damage by now.

About the same. Between TShock hitting fairly hard and Curse damage, Fearow is about to croak, so I'm resetting.

Attempt 4 - Haunter outspeeds Snubbull and gets a Curse up. 40~45% with Bite. That's better than I expected tbh.

Bull actually 3HKOs with Headbutt. Not bad at all. Curse still a problem though. No sweep in sight.

Attempt 5 - Haunter outspeeds Quagsire and so does Zubat.

Magnemite actually ties at 23 Speed. But this is bad because one Supersonic really disrupts things.

Dig easily dispatches Haunter, Zubat takes 85% off an Ice Punch, and one Dig utterly dismantles Mag.

The problem is just not getting hit by Curse, so gotta use teamwork on that.

Attempt 6 - I'm curious on the Fearow vs Croconaw matchup since that's arguably the most dangerous one, so Snubbull will lead against Haunter and I'll play things accordingly.

Snubbull makes short work out of Haunter.

Quilava vs Magnemite. Charcoal Ember does like, 75~80%. Good.
Supersonic hits. Bad.
Quilava attacked anyway. Good.

Fearow vs Croconaw...

No trouble at all. Return/Swift is a 3HKO. Crit Water Gun did 24 in return. Other move was Leer. Dominant performance.

Quagsire wraps it up with 2 Ice Punches on Zubat.

Raikou, Entei and Suicune do their best Pillar Men impression and now I'm free to beat Morty.

Ecruteak Trainers are fairly weak. Quilava 2HKOs 1st trainer's Gastly with Charcoal Ember, Quag and Fearow OHKO with Surf and Peck. Everything got Curse tho.

Remembered that I need the Mint Berry. Gonna sneak past all these trainers...

A Wild Miltank showed up 3 steps in the grass. :psynervous:
When I actually want this thing to show up tho...:psyangry:

Got the Mint Berry and traveled back without getting spotted by any trainer.

Levels are 21 for everyone but Quilava at 22. No trainer battles outside of Burned Tower and the Gym itself.

Attempt 1 - Gonna try a Quilava Rollout Sweep. Mint Berry to not get screwed by Hypnosis.

Gastly moves like a complete moron. Spite and Mean Look instead of Curse. This is quite possibly the best case scenario. KO on the 3rd roll.

Lava outspeeds 1st Haunter.

Gengar outspeeds Lava... To use Mean Look. L M A O

2nd Haunter also goes for Mean Look. :pikuh:

Rollout ended, so I might as well see how much Ember does. 4HKO.

Morty is stupid and I'm at full health, no threat.

Well, maybe not. Night Shade is a 3HKO. Still, he wasted a turn on Mean Look for no reason and Quilava outspeeds.

Enjoy being swept, sucka. Free like Korrina. GG EZ.

Attempt 2 - Let's try it again. Morty can't be as stupid as a SwSh leader, that ain't right.

Slightly better. Gastly started with Lick. No paralysis, no problem. Mean Look on the 2nd turn. No Curse. He finna get embarrassed again.

1st Haunter got rolled over, Gengar went for Mean Look again. This deserves a meme.

4wz876.jpg


2nd Haunter got Mimic. That's cool.
You know what's cooler? Rollout being a 3HKO...
Pokemon - Crystal Version (UE) (V1.1) [C][!]_1612629153025.png

...

All jokes aside, extremely dominant matchup, but requires Rollout and Morty being extremely stupid.

Curse will cut your Rollout sweep short and so will Gengar Hypnosis hitting, but of course, for those to happen, Morty actually needs to use these moves.

So weird...

Attempt 3 - Snubbull vs Gastly. Now the prick uses Curse. Fml. Bite does over 50% though. Reset just to make sure.

Attempt 3.1 - Curse on Turn 1 again. This is interesting. Bull's Bite made short work of it, gonna send Fearow in on the free switch.

Fearow's Peck did almost 50%. It outspeeds Haunter 1 too. Curse ASAP. This probably means Morty goes for the Curse on every Normal-Type.

Back to Snubbull vs Gengar.

Hypnosis miss on Turn 1. No problem, I got that Mint Berry anyway.

Bite does a fairly pitiful amount of damage. Looks like 20%.

Another Hypnosis miss. Gonna try Scary Face.

Gengar still outspeeds at -2. Yikes.

Hypnosis finally hits. Mint kicked in.

Hypnosis hits again. Uh-oh.
Dream Eater flat out OHKOs. Reset.

Attempt 4 - Fearow's Peck does 75% on Gastly. Curse in, Fearow out.

Snubbull's Bite does 45% on Haunter 1. Curse up. Hypnosis hit. Let's see the follow-up...

Mimic. It got Bite. Gotta switch out.

Damn, Bite did 19 on Fearow switching in. Didn't want to take all this damage before Gengar. Outsped and KO'd Haunter 1 on the next turn.

Gengar in, Hypnosis hits on Turn 1. Fearow had the Mint tho.

Peck does an embarrassing amount of damage on Gengar. 4HKO. And this is the absolute best no external modifier scenario for this level. Zephyrbadge boost, max Attack IV...

Gotta count on Hypnosis missing at least 3 times with the Mint. Or else you will need an Awakening immediately before it nukes Fearow with Dream Eater.

It's very possible, and in no point you're genuinely threatened because it's super easy to play around Dream Eater, but I don't like this damage output. Same deal for Snubbull and any Normal-type that can actually hit Gengar I guess.

Got the data I needed. Reset.

Attempt 5 - Curse Turn 1 vs Quagsire. Can't avoid damage because of Dig. Fml.

Gonna reset real quick and see if it's consistent.

Attempt 5.1 - It is consistent. Oddly enough, not against Quilava. This time I was ready. Surf for the KO. Switched out to Bull and see if it can redeem itself against Haunter 1.

Haunter 1 went for Spite on Turn 1, then Mimic. Bull made short work of it.

Gengar vs Quagsire.

Hypnosis hit Turn 1, Mint kicked in.
Dig hit for a gorillion damage, 75%.

Hypnosis miss, Surf KO. Solid matchup.

No damage taken vs Gengar, so I decided to stay in on Haunter and wrap it up.

Mean Look on Turn 1, then Dig OHKO'd.

I'm letting that one stick. It's weird that Morty was aggressively stupid against Quilava, but them's the breaks.

Pretty sure I forgot a Pink Bow in Goldenrod. Need that for Snubbull. Gonna head there and then West to beat Chuck first since he got the lowest levels out of the next 3 leaders.
 
I'm very surprised by those numbers because I remember needing much less friendship to evolve in other gens (getting Crobat at level 23 and Leavanny at level 21, for example), not sure if it's missing something or the mechanics in the second gen were worse. I do remember evolving from the Odd Egg at 26 but those start higher. Anyway, you don't /need/ Crobat for Morty and Chuck, but definitely afterwards since its Returns aren't strong enough for Pryce—and you obviously want it to Fly. I guess Friend Ball is the way to go then.


I didn't test Scyther on the Elite 4 but it beats Whitney, loses to Morty, Chuck and Jasmine, beats Pryce and can't even beat Dragonair at 34, although might have been able to beat 1 at 37. Wing Attack is 35 BP so it basically doesn't have STAB.
This is wrong tho, Wing Attack is 60 BP in this gen. It's 35 in the first one.

Also aegon the unlikely I did mean Donphan but I misread what RP said, for some reason I thought Grumpig meant Donphan (because I guess pigs are closer to elephants???) when he was clearly talking about Granbull. My issue with Donphan's matchup was that it was very inefficient, having to set up Rollout multiple times in order to beat Steelix and needing a Bitter Berry + two potions. Granted we're talking about a double resist so it's impressive, but I was surprised when you said it was an A level performance same as Quilava's.

Btw can we talk about that random Rocket executive with a level 36 Golbat? That's super dumb, higher than the leader's Houndoom for crying out loud. After finishing the Radio Tower I have Typhlosion and Pidgeot, plus level 36 Poliwrath and level 35 Victreebel (basically handled Raticate and other minor critters because otherwise it would've been lower). That seems adequate to go toe-to-toe with Clair, I only used one Rare Candy so that Pidgeotto could outspeed and 2HKO Silver's Golbat which otherwise was annoying. Expecting to hit the League at around 41/42 without doing any detours, consistent with my mons experience group.
 
Tonight, on Days of our Tiers...

Pretty sure I forgot a Pink Bow in Goldenrod. Need that for Snubbull. Gonna head there and then West to beat Chuck first since he got the lowest levels out of the next 3 leaders.
I think you can't get Pink Bow until you beat the Rockets

This is wrong tho, Wing Attack is 60 BP in this gen. It's 35 in the first one.
Woops, I got them mixed up. It does need 30 for it which is reasonable for Chuck. It probably can beat 1 Dragonair too but should still lose to Kingdra. I guess I'd want to see how exactly it does at the Elite 4 to decide if it's B or C.
 
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