Resource SS PU Viability Rankings

[Chloe]

A+ to A
I like Charizard in a vacuum. Belly Drum Salac sets are super cool, Dragon Dance sets are also neat. However, I believe standard offensive sets are generally tremendously difficult to justify when it means you're not running Talonflame, you miss out on such an excellent speed tier for slightly more, marginal bulk and very little else. I think the set-up sets have merit as I mentioned earlier, the issue arises when you consider how difficult it is to set up, how running Belly Drum and Substitute opens you up to different defensive threats depending on what two coverage moves you use. Dragon Dance is substantially weaker, struggles breaking through defensive teams. Once Regirock, Gigalith, Vaporeon or whatever is holding them back is removed, I think they're still both potent sweeper sets, but they're not of A+ quality.

A to A-
While initially I was very big on Vikavolt, as its defensive typing was amazing against the slew of Fighting- and Ground-types we had; and its offensive stat was through the roof, in practice over time it's seen very little success, clearly not one of an A rank threat. The prevalence of Gigalith, Lanturn, specially defensive Togedemaru and other common checks make Vikavolt's offensive sets fall flat the majority of the time. Its defensive sets, while on occasion useful, are difficult to justify over its competitors. It's fallen off a lot since its initial ranking, and A just doesn't reflect its viability anymore.

A to B+
Sneasel isn't great. In a metagame where Talonflame is on every team, where all our scarfers OHKO it, where balances very commonly have multiple defensive answers. I think A is plenty overrating Sneasel. In practice this Pokemon just doesn't hold up, it's not a potent breaker, it can't sweep, every time I've attempted to use Sneasel it just hasn't held its weight, having this in the same subrank as Guzzlord, Whimsicott and Ribombee feels wrong to say the least.

A to A-
With most teams running competent repeated switchins such as Lanturn, Vaporeon, Gigalith, Regirock; Magmortar struggles immensely in the current metagame. It just doesn't put in work against most balance teams due to the defensive structures that make up the metagame currently, doesn't have many Steel- or Grass-types are benefit from, and if it runs Choice Specs which is probably its best set, it struggles to come in repeatedly due to its hazards weakness. Plenty of its attributes are unfortunately holding it back at the moment. A- suits Magmortar substantially more.

A- to A
Lanturn is easily one of the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame right now, acting as a blanket check to many potent special threats, providing a volt immunity, providing cleric support and additionally acting as one of the best checks to Omastar in a metagame that severely lacks defensive answers to it. Its ability to switch into Talonflame and Heal Bell / pivot off of it is severely underrated. I don't really know what else I can say, it's a premier defensive Pokemon in our metagame and its rank should reflect that.

A- to A
Great scarfer, great wallbreaker, great amount of utility, Mesprit is really prevalent at the moment and rightfully so. It benefits extensively from the lack of Steel-types seeing usage, in addition to the omnipresence of Fighting-type threats, Weezing, Garbodor, Golbat. Its coverage is insanely good. It's the third best scarfer in the metagame, which while not meaning much considering Passimian's and Togedemaru's prominence, it is comparable in my mind. Its Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, NP and utility sets all serve a purpose and all eat up the metagame. I find myself slotting Mesprit onto more and more teams as time goes on, I love using it and I implore others attempt to use it more too.

A- to B+ / B
Gallade struggles immensely in the current metagame, where much more potent Fighting-types are available, Gallade's niche of having the dual Psychic-/Fighting-type doesn't help too much, when common Poison-types in Weezing and Garbodor aren't seeing as much usage as they previously did. Its speed tier is too middling, in a metagame where virtually every balance team is running Talonflame, and multiple pokemon faster than Gallade. It doesn't have much to break through common metagame staples such as Colbur Berry Palossand. Just generally very difficult to justify over more potent Fighting-types like Virizion, Passimian and Toxicroak.

B to A-
Sandaconda is one of the best Ground-types in the metagame, being only second to Palossand. It's more bulkier, lacks Dark- and Ghost-type weaknesses, has one of the best support moves in Glare and shrugs off status with ease. Sandaconda is a very spammable defensive threat that switches into the prevalent physical attackers in the metagame with ease. While it moved from C to B last shift, I'm still of the belief this is far too low for Sandaconda, which is slowly becoming a staple in the current metagame.

B- to B
Choice Band Trevenant is an excellent wallbreaker, one that can switchin to status spreaders like Vaporeon, Lanturn, Regirock, Gigalith, Sandaconda without much concern. Its defensive typing allows it to switch into both of Virizion's STABs which significantly eases matchups versus it. 525 Attack after Band is incredibly hard to switch into, and hence Trevenant usually gets an OHKO every time it comes in. A strong Pokemon that I'd consider more potent than the majority of B rank, that many more people should try and use.

I strongly agree with all three of Tap's nominations as well. I'd like to elaborate futher on Omastar, because it's absolutely insane at the moment and deserves A rank undisputedly. How useful its ability to abuse the very large amount of Talonflame usage we're seeing at the moment cannot be understated, Lanturn not running Protect as often. Most people are relying on sacking a Pokemon to Meteor Beam in order to check it, which can easily be abused by Shell Smash-ing again and clicking another move. AV Guzzlord is an example of a Pokemon that can check Omastar relatively well, but even then that sees very little usage comparatively and can easily be whittled down throughout a match. Omastar deserves substantially more usage than it does, but I am for one glad it doesn't see too much. In addition to this, hazard setter Omastar easily exploits teams that rely on Talonflame for removal. Omastar is easily the best way to punish the excessive Talonflame usage at the moment, and in my eyes, definitely deserves A.

 

[iceblazer]

b- -> c
Orbeetle simply is not very good right now. On paper, it should act as a decent Fighting-type check due to its 4x resistance to the type and access to Recover, but on practice it falls flat on its face. Most Fighting-types carry either Koff or SE, making its job significantly harder. In addition, its rather reliant on HDB to avoid getting chipped down, and so you can’t really switch in unless you want to risk losing Boots. Everything it does, there’s a better mon for it. Bulky Fighting check? Garbodor, Golbat and Palo do that better and are more splashable. BP wincon? Use Cofagrigus, that mon has a better defensive typing and doesn’t rely on Boots. Sticky Web? I see no reason not to use Ribombee or Galvantula instead. Just feels like a really subpar mon right now.

b+ -> b
As the analysis writer, I must admit that the bug isn’t doing so hot as of now. It absolutely hates Fire, Electric, Rock, and Ice-type mons and moves being absolutely everywhere at the moment, and you’re essentially forfeiting your Bug/Flying slot on your team, where something like Talon or Bee would generally be better. Its speed tier is also a matter of discussion; while its fast, it’s not fast enough to outspeed the omnipresent trio of Talon/Viriz/Arch. And of course, it desperately needs help breaking through defensive staples such as Weezing, Palossand and Regirock. It’s still decent as a momentum grabber if you need one, but I think Scyther should be dropped a subrank to represent its place in the meta rn.

 

[PlusC]

Unranked -> B

A glaring omission in leaving Poliwrath off of the rankings. I appreciate Toxicroak is generally considered better but Poliwrath has a lot of movepool options Croak lacks and has better stats all around.

I've been running a Sub/Bulk Up set that sets up on half the tier and puts a lot of work. I'll post replays soon to back this up but B feels like a good place for it.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Substitute
- Poison Jab / Darkest Lariat
- Bulk Up

Edit:
Here's a few quick replays. I didn't win them all but they show off Poliwrath well. Note that Toxicroak couldn't have set up in most of these situations.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285815252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285677087
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285682553
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285685832
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285674061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285969445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286971745

 

[Hera]

Hi there!

UR to C/B-

Hear me out here.

On paper, Jolteon seems outclassed by Heliolisk due to a few factors. Heliolisk has all the coverage it could ever want to hit common Volt switch-ins such as Claydol, Rhydon, and Sandaconda, a secondary STAB in Hyper Voice than can seriously chip Lanturn, and Dry Skin, letting it switch into Vaporeon and opposing Water-types for days. However, Jolteon does occupy a few niches I feel warrant a ranking.

1. Jolteon has a blazing fast speed tier. Not only does this mean it can run a boosting item such as Choice Specs or Life Orb, but it also outpaces similarly fast Pokemon such as Ribombee and Talonflame. As shown by Lycanroc being A- and by Omastar being nominated for a big rise, being able to take advantage of Talonflame in some way is big. This also gives Boots Jolteon a solid matchup against cheeser teams likes Webs or Screens.
2. Jolteon's movepool is not exactly the best thing in the world; however, it's just enough to be able to work with what it's given. Shadow Ball is a particular point of interest, as due to Jolteon's slightly higher Special Attack stat, a Shadow Ball from Jolteon actually hits harder than any of Heliolisk's moves against Ghosts and Psychics (see below for calcs). Due to Jolteon's great speed tier combined with the fact that Ghosts and Psychics are very commonplace in the meta, this interaction sees more use than one would think, and makes Jolteon able to dispose of Ghosts and Psychics easier than Heliolisk.
3. Adding onto the previous point, Jolteon is able to bait in common blanket special checks such as Gigalith and AV Guzzlord and cripple them with Toxic. Admittedly, Heliolisk can do the exact same thing since it also has access to Toxic along with 90% of the tier. However, Jolteon's limited coverage makes it easier to bait said special walls, and this is heavily appreciated by teammates who want to wear down these Pokemon easier.
4. Finally, Jolteon makes for an excellent cleaner. Its speed tier, high SpA, and powerful STAB means that, while it does need more support than other cleaners such as Passimian, it is able to cleave through weakened foes with a Specs while still usually being the faster thing in the lategame.

Calcs

252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 150-178 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 150-178 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 126-148 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Don't believe me? Here are a couple of replays that showcase Jolteon's positive qualities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286951653

Here, a Boots Jolteon was able to cripple both Trick Room setters (Eggy-A didn't reveal itself) and constantly force defensive options thanks to Toxic and some lucky statues from its teammates. Eventually, Toxic damage overwhelmed Aromatisse while Uxie had to waste a turn Heal Belling, which gave a clear path for Jolteon to further chip it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1287701537

This time, it was Specs Jolteon, and it showcased its speed tier turn 1 by immediately forcing out Talonflame, severely damaging Claydol, and taking a solid chunk from Absol. After a few turns of pivoting around, Jolteon was able to chip its supposed switchins via Hyper Voice. Its ability to force damage on unsuspecting foes is solid.

Overall, while Jolteon is outclassed in a few roles by Heliolisk and other, more specialized Electric types, it carves itself a niche with its blazing fast speed tier, good enough coverage options, ability to force damage on its checks either by Toxic or just sheer power, and solid matchup against cheeser teams due to its unique qualities, especially with Boots. I think this warrants an official ranking on the VR, lest we create a D rank solely for Jolteon even when it clearly has a niche.

B to A-/A, Somewhat Disagree

I have to agree that Omastar is very annoying and hard to play around. The fact that it can easily sweep unprepared teams, take advantage of Talonflame, and needs minimal support to function definitely warrants a rise. However, I really can't see it on the same level Silvally-Fairy or Ribombee, mostly because Omastar has yet to prove itself. Omastar also suffers from other meta trends. While Meteor Beam is a great nuke to any bulky Water, it only gets one, and this means it must be played smartly. Compare that to a sweeper like Toxicroak, which can pretty much click funny buttons and nuke almost everything at +2 on either stat while having priority to boot. Omastar also struggles with Scarfers; it needs to be Jolly to outspeed Scarf Passimian, however Modest has much more favorable rolls against Pokemon like Virizion and Heliolisk, not to mention that Scarf Togedemaru simply doesn't care what nature it is. Omastar should definitely rise, but I think such a drastic one is way too much.

B+ to B/B-, Disagree

I think Tap's nom misunderstands why exactly Scyther is being used. Yes, it can be used as a Virizion check sometimes because of the threat of Scarf + STEdge missing because it's STEdge, but it's also very potent offensively. SD is a great cleaner once all is said and done, and its ability to weaken its own checks with Knock Off, pivot out with a STAB U-Turn, and destroy them later on with a +2 Dual Wingbeat is very scary (unless it misses 4 times in a row like it did with me). Scyther also has a surprising amount of set diversity. Band mandates hazards removal, but DWB ends up hits like a truck in return, OHKOing foes such as Talonflame (if the first DWB doesn't burn you), Charizard, and puts Archeops into Defeatist range. Many non-resists are 2hkoed on the switch, with Guzzlord, Silvally-Fairy, and Weezing all falling after minimal chip on a switch-in. While Scyther bulk is nothing to scream at, thanks to Boots and a solid defensive typing, it can come in on stuff like Passimian and Hitmontop with very little drawback. Pretty underrated mon and shouldn't be taken lightly, even if it's wings do get clipped by hazards sometimes.

A to B+, Agree

Pop quiz: When's the last time you've seen a Sneasel genuinely contribute to a match? While on paper, the threat of KOff + Ice STAB is enough to scare out most of the tier, in practice it ends up floundering. Without a Band or SD boost, it's very weak and relegated to spreading KOff on its checks, which something Scrafty can do 10x better because it has actual bulk and a non-niche ability. Personally, I don't think it should've been A to begin with, but I can understand Alpha bias + wanting the meta to settle a bit. But now, Sneasel just feels outclassed and often isn't worth running over other Dark types like Absol or Scrafty, or other Ice types such as Vanilluxe.

B+ to A-

I think my original nomination oversold the mon a bit. After thinking about it, it's not on the same level that Sneasel was perceived to be, and often has trouble getting it due to medicore bulk and middling speed that forces out very little. However, all of my previous points still stand. It has great set diversity, a nuclear Knock Off, great coverage to hit would-be checks such as Virizion, Weezing, and Regirock, Sucker Punch to force 50/50s with faster foes like Archeops, and interesting utility options such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave. Hope this thing finally rises after it was shamefully snubbed.

Finally, a quick lighting round.

(Steel) A to A+ (this is, like, THE Steel you should be using. SpDef Toge is still good but Silvally-Steel is just so good at checking so much.)
A+ to A/A- (Feel really disappointing as a defensive mon. Absolute momentum sink, Toxic bait, is supposed to check Archeops but just gets U-turned on...I often find myself using either Gigalith or Claydol if I need a Rocker.)
B+ to A- (why is this thing so hard to switch into?)
B+ to A- (see above.)
B to B- (a Defogger that beats most Rockers sounds nice...until you realize it loses to half the tier and cannot take a special hit at all.)
C to UR (what niche do these occupy again? I can't see any, but would be glad if someone defended these, because they either feel outclassed or useless.)

Thanks for reading!

 

[Chloe]

I was going to leave this for someone else, but the more I read this post, the more I just feel inclined to reply to it. I appreciate the effort in writing such a post nonetheless, and thank you for your contributions.

Hi there!

UR to C/B-

Jolteon has a blazing fast speed tier. Not only does this mean it can run a boosting item such as Choice Specs or Life Orb, but it also outpaces similarly fast Pokemon such as Ribombee and Talonflame. As shown by Lycanroc being A- and by Omastar being nominated for a big rise, being able to take advantage of Talonflame in some way is big. This also gives Boots Jolteon a solid matchup against cheeser teams likes Webs or Screens.

On one hand I really agree that Jolteon's speed tier is one of its most redeeming features. Outpacing Talonflame, Archeops, and a bunch of other Pokemon is incredibly useful and should not be understated. However, I think this is as far as its positive attributes over Heliolisk go. Saying it can run a boosting item is disingenuous, Heliolisk can do this too, it's just useful for Volt Switch users / Pokemon that pivot in and out often to run Heavy-Duty Boots, and none of that has anything to do with its speed tier.

Jolteon's movepool is not exactly the best thing in the world; however, it's just enough to be able to work with what it's given. Shadow Ball is a particular point of interest, as due to Jolteon's slightly higher Special Attack stat, a Shadow Ball from Jolteon actually hits harder than any of Heliolisk's moves against Ghosts and Psychics (see below for calcs). Due to Jolteon's great speed tier combined with the fact that Ghosts and Psychics are very commonplace in the meta, this interaction sees more use than one would think, and makes Jolteon able to dispose of Ghosts and Psychics easier than Heliolisk.

Calcs

252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 150-178 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 150-178 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 126-148 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I believe this point is relatively moot though. While Jolteon hits Mesprit harder than Heliolisk, due to Heliolisk running more varied coverage that slightly misses out on Psychic-types, Heliolisk hits all prominent and relevant Ghost-types harder or just as hard as Jolteon.
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 198-234 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 294-346 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 252-296 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Consider this in comparison to Pokemon that Jolteon simply can't hit with its horrible coverage options.
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandaconda: 104-123 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 23.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandaconda: 208-246 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 220+ SpD Lanturn: 69-82 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 36 HP / 220+ SpD Lanturn: 115-136 (28.7 - 34%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its movepool is not a positive trait whatsoever, and not one you can really compare to Heliolisk. If you really want Heliolisk to hit Mesprit as hard as Jolteon, it does get Dark Pulse, but why would you when its other coverage options provide so much more utility and overall damage output.

Adding onto the previous point, Jolteon is able to bait in common blanket special checks such as Gigalith and AV Guzzlord and cripple them with Toxic. Admittedly, Heliolisk can do the exact same thing since it also has access to Toxic along with 90% of the tier. However, Jolteon's limited coverage makes it easier to bait said special walls, and this is heavily appreciated by teammates who want to wear down these Pokemon easier.

I don't understand how this is supposed to be a positive? Heliolisk lures these Pokemon in too, and can click Toxic, like you yourself admit. There's not really anything to dwell on here, this is just a fancy way of saying "Jolteon is weaker and has worse coverage options so it gets checked easily".

Finally, Jolteon makes for an excellent cleaner. Its speed tier, high SpA, and powerful STAB means that, while it does need more support than other cleaners such as Passimian, it is able to cleave through weakened foes with a Specs while still usually being the faster thing in the lategame.

This is yet again building on Jolteon's impressive speed tier, the problem is its coverage makes supporting late game cleaning incredibly difficult. Lanturn, Guzzlord, Gigalith, Sandaconda, Togedemaru, Heliolisk and plenty other Pokemon just shrug off all of Jolteon's attacks with ease. There are so many better late game cleaners that I'd just much rather run than Jolteon.

Don't believe me? Here are a couple of replays that showcase Jolteon's positive qualities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286951653

Here, a Boots Jolteon was able to cripple both Trick Room setters (Eggy-A didn't reveal itself) and constantly force defensive options thanks to Toxic and some lucky statues from its teammates. Eventually, Toxic damage overwhelmed Aromatisse while Uxie had to waste a turn Heal Belling, which gave a clear path for Jolteon to further chip it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1287701537

This time, it was Specs Jolteon, and it showcased its speed tier turn 1 by immediately forcing out Talonflame, severely damaging Claydol, and taking a solid chunk from Absol. After a few turns of pivoting around, Jolteon was able to chip its supposed switchins via Hyper Voice. Its ability to force damage on unsuspecting foes is solid.

Overall, while Jolteon is outclassed in a few roles by Heliolisk and other, more specialized Electric types, it carves itself a niche with its blazing fast speed tier, good enough coverage options, ability to force damage on its checks either by Toxic or just sheer power, and solid matchup against cheeser teams due to its unique qualities, especially with Boots. I think this warrants an official ranking on the VR, lest we create a D rank solely for Jolteon even when it clearly has a niche.

Its speed tier is really the only thing it has over Heliolisk, while it misses out on so much more. Without a Water-type immunity, its defensive utility is diminished, without Heliolisk's coverage it's walled by common Pokemon. Jolteon is essentially dead weight in matches against Sandaconda, specially defensive Togedemaru or Lanturn, whereas Heliolisk is still useful in these matchups. I find it incredibly difficult to vouch for this Pokemon, and I honestly believe it should not be ranked.

B to A-/A, Somewhat Disagree

I have to agree that Omastar is very annoying and hard to play around. The fact that it can easily sweep unprepared teams, take advantage of Talonflame, and needs minimal support to function definitely warrants a rise. However, I really can't see it on the same level Silvally-Fairy or Ribombee, mostly because Omastar has yet to prove itself. Omastar also suffers from other meta trends. While Meteor Beam is a great nuke to any bulky Water, it only gets one, and this means it must be played smartly. Compare that to a sweeper like Toxicroak, which can pretty much click funny buttons and nuke almost everything at +2 on either stat while having priority to boot. Omastar also struggles with Scarfers; it needs to be Jolly to outspeed Scarf Passimian, however Modest has much more favorable rolls against Pokemon like Virizion and Heliolisk, not to mention that Scarf Togedemaru simply doesn't care what nature it is. Omastar should definitely rise, but I think such a drastic one is way too much.

Omastar has proven itself though. Its seen usage in LTPL, it's often sweeping teams without much effort, it has very limited switchins (arguably less than Toxicroak actually), it's influencing meta trends in regards to which fourth move Lanturn runs, or boosting AV Guzzlord's usage. Omastar is incredibly hard to prepare for, and the fact that most of its defensive matchups come down to a 50/50 is insane. It benefits too strongly from Talonflame's omnipresence in the metagame at the moment. From this point, it seems as if you haven't run into Omastar much, or are unaware of how commonly it just sweeps teams. Toxicroak is yes, yet another special set up sweeper, but it's incomparable in a lot of ways. Toxicroak's speed tier is substantially lower, it has many more defensive answers depending on what coverage it runs, it doesn't exploit Talonflame which is the main reason for Omastar's high usage. Omastar is one of the most potent sweepers in the tier, one you shouldn't be comparing to Toxicroak in such a way, and its rank should really reflect that.

B+ to B/B-, Disagree
I think Tap's nom misunderstands why exactly Scyther is being used. Yes, it can be used as a Virizion check sometimes because of the threat of Scarf + STEdge missing because it's STEdge, but it's also very potent offensively. SD is a great cleaner once all is said and done, and its ability to weaken its own checks with Knock Off, pivot out with a STAB U-Turn, and destroy them later on with a +2 Dual Wingbeat is very scary (unless it misses 4 times in a row like it did with me). Scyther also has a surprising amount of set diversity. Band mandates hazards removal, but DWB ends up hits like a truck in return, OHKOing foes such as Talonflame (if the first DWB doesn't burn you), Charizard, and puts Archeops into Defeatist range. Many non-resists are 2hkoed on the switch, with Guzzlord, Silvally-Fairy, and Weezing all falling after minimal chip on a switch-in. While Scyther bulk is nothing to scream at, thanks to Boots and a solid defensive typing, it can come in on stuff like Passimian and Hitmontop with very little drawback. Pretty underrated mon and shouldn't be taken lightly, even if it's wings do get clipped by hazards sometimes.

The defensive utility you're claiming Scyther has is really obscure. You claim it's a defensive switch-in to Virizion, Passimian, Hitmontop, all of which often carry coverage to OHKO it in return. Its bulk is middling without Eviolite, which is an item you'd never run with the prospect of running Heavy-Duty Boots instead. It's speed tier and offensive coverage don't enable it to be a potent cleaner. It's an awkward Pokemon to fit on teams, if I wanted its defensive utility I'd run Golbat, a Pokemon that actually substantially checks the three aforementioned Fighting-types, if I wanted an offensive Flying-type breaker I'd run many other options before ever considering Scyther. Scyther is just, well, awkward, and struggles to carve a sufficient niche when outclassed by multiple other, actually prominent Pokemon.

Finally, a quick lighting round.

(Steel) A to A+ (this is, like, THE Steel you should be using. SpDef Toge is still good but Silvally-Steel is just so good at checking so much.)

Strongly disagree with this, SpD Togedemaru is so much better as a defensive Steel-type generally and Silvally-Steel just has trouble justifying usage other than if removal is needed or if you want a subpar SD sweeper, and even then when considering the utility and prominence of other Pokemon in A+, it really just doesn't compare.

A+ to A/A- (Feel really disappointing as a defensive mon. Absolute momentum sink, Toxic bait, is supposed to check Archeops but just gets U-turned on...I often find myself using either Gigalith or Claydol if I need a Rocker.)

This point misunderstands why Palossand is used? It's a defensive Ground-type which is incredibly useful against Lycanroc, Aggron, Silvally formes, Gigalith, Regirock, Archeops, Togedemaru; a Fighting-type check that switches into Passimian, physical Toxicroak and a plethora of other physical threats. I implore you to use it given your next question.

B+ to A- (why is this thing so hard to switch into?)

I do agree with this to an extent, it's really difficult to switch into. I'd be fine with it rising but not necessarily for that reason, it's just an overall great wallbreaker. There's not many Rock-type resists in the tier, and even then it has ways to get through those (e.g. SubRise Aggron, Hydro Pump lure sets). It's a great rocker considering the removal in the tier. Just generally a great Pokemon.

B+ to A- (see above.)

I don't agree with this as much though. Clawitzer has very little opportunities to come in due to its relatively frail defenses and pure Water-typing. It's dead weight against teams with Vaporeon, struggles against many common archetypes at the moment due to its slow speed tier. I like Clawitzer, but I really think it justifies B+ a lot more than A-.

B to B- (a Defogger that beats most Rockers sounds nice...until you realize it loses to half the tier and cannot take a special hit at all.)

Gurdurr is a good Bulk Up win condition actually. Its defense is surprisingly very impressive and allows it to set up with ease against many common Pokemon. It doesn't have many Pokemon that can force it out bar like Mesprit and Aromatisse. I think this is another case of I'm not sure you know what this does. Even then, Defog sets are great, it doesn't need to take a special hit especially when it's coming in against potent rockers and preventing them being set up a lot of the time. B fits Gurdurr.

Sorry if it seems as if I've picked apart your post I just generally disagree with a lot of these nominations, but nonetheless I really appreciate the effort you put into them. I agree with the few that I've left out.

 

[Expulso]

Jolteon is for sure viable. The speed tier makes a huge difference when you now outspeed the best mon in the tier (along with other “top-tier” threats like archeops ... archeops is bad btw). tbolt / volt / shadow ball / toxic gives u everything you need; it runs into some unfortunate matchups but the mons that shut it down tend to be very passive and thus exploitable (spdef toge, heal bell lanturn) or just get volted on (guzzlord, whimsicott — outspeeding whimsi is cool). jolt is a genuinely useful offensive pivot that also provides de facto speed control, and i agree w heracross that it should be ranked. I’d prob go with B but id also be cool with B- (p.s. i havent played this meta in about a month)

i agree with all of chloe’s other replies, especially raising aggron. u toxic palossand and 2hko p much everything else (ig sanda’s annoying, but even then u can 1) get em up 2) do ~30 w rocks heavy slam or ~50 w cb heavy slam / aqua tail). Max speed is super useful on offensive sr, since u outspeed vapo/jelli barring CRAZY speed creep and 2HKO them

 

[Hera]

I was going to leave this for someone else, but the more I read this post, the more I just feel inclined to reply to it. I appreciate the effort in writing such a post nonetheless, and thank you for your contributions.

Hello there! Thanks for responding to my post in such a civilized manner. After reading your post and reflecting on my own, I ended up realizing that many of my points were flawed (I especially do not enjoy what I wrote for Scyther). Hindsight really is 20/20, and again I thank you for making me reconsider some of the points I made.

With that being said, I just wanted to clarify some of my points that may have either been misinterpreted incorrectly or misworded on my part.

I don't understand how this is supposed to be a positive? Heliolisk lures these Pokemon in too, and can click Toxic, like you yourself admit. There's not really anything to dwell on here, this is just a fancy way of saying "Jolteon is weaker and has worse coverage options so it gets checked easily".

My intended point was not "Jolteon is weak and is therefore checked easier". Looking at my wording, I can understand how it could have been interpreted like that. My intended point was "Jolteon can turn a weakness (lack of coverage) into a strength (baiting in checks only to hit with a Toxic and Volted on afterwards) in enough scenarios so that this isn't niche enough not to be mentioned". I tried to say this when I mentioned Jolteon's limited coverage and how it could be abused. While I also mentioned Heliolisk can do this, due to Heliolisk's wider options, this is less likely to happen. Even if the Heliolisk were to opt for Toxic, it misses out on important coverage otherwise, which makes Jolteon better in these not as niche as you think scenarios.

Strongly disagree with this, SpD Togedemaru is so much better as a defensive Steel-type generally and Silvally-Steel just has trouble justifying usage other than if removal is needed or if you want a subpar SD sweeper, and even then when considering the utility and prominence of other Pokemon in A+, it really just doesn't compare.

Silvally-Steel to A+ is a nomination I thought long and hard about, and in hindsight I should've wrote much more, but by the end of the post I was worn out and unable to fully express why I thought that way. Admittedly, comparing the two and saying Silvally-Steel was better was not the best move. Despite both occupying the same niche (defensive Steel type), they both perform so in different ways. As for why I think Silvally-Steel was worthy of A+, it provides an unprecedented amount of role compression between hazards removal, checking Fairy types, bringing in teammates safely via Parting Shot, and uses its Steel typing effectively to check multiple threats such as non-Flare Blitz Talonflame, Aromatisse, Ribombee, Sneasel, Whimsicott, Mesprit, Vanilluxe...and that's just the stuff in A- and above. Yes, Toge can do this as well, but as I stated above, despite occupying a similar niche, they act differently, with Silvally-Steel functioning as a better partner for more offensive mons thanks to Parting Shot weakening teams and its myriad of support options and Toge being better for defensive mons due to its slower speed tier but access to recovery. It also has other aspects that separate it from Togedemaru, such as being a better KOff switch in because of not taking the boosted damage and beating other Steels because of Flamethrower. Ultimately, I feel that Silvally-Steel provides in every matchup in a meaningful way thanks to all of these traits, unlike Pokemon that are currently A such as Vikavolt or Braviary (these may not be genuinely A rank Pokemon anymore but most of A either should drop or is really close to A+ imo), and is one of the most spashable Pokemon in the tier right now. While saying it was the best Steel was definitely something I don't agree with now, Silvally-Steel still deserves to rise to A+ imo.

That's realistically all I have to respond to. The rest I can understand why you disagree and will actively strive to improve my next nominations, whenever that may be. Although it was at first demoralizing to see my post cleanly picked apart, I appreciate you looking so deeply at my post so that I can improve from it, although I do plan on keeping the original post unchanged so that the responses are valid. Just to clarify, I still stand by most of my noms, but some like Omastar and Scyther I recant.

 

[gum]

ur -> c / b-
i might be (slightly) biased, but i truly believe lilligant is a solid wincon that should, at the very least, be ranked. everyone knows what this does, it clicks quiver dance a couple of times and tries to not miss sleep powder and then proceed to win, which it's actually quite decent at due to our steels and poisons not named spdef togedemaru (u beat non-toxic sets anyway) and golbat not having reliable recovery. losing hidden powers was for sure unfortunate but nature power is decent neutral coverage - after a single quiver dance, talonflame, weezing, and physdef garbodor are 2hkoed, and when u take into account sleep powder, it can invalidate many of its would-be answers and get past them

it doesn't struggle to find setup opportunities, as its typing and the threat of it getting too quiver dances under its belt are usually enough for it to force out stuff like vaporeon, gigalith, palossand, and choice-locked mons like rock slide passimian and zing zap togedemaru. sleep is obviously another factor that contributes to this, and the many 50/50s it creates make it even easier to find setup opportunities

it pairs rather well with a lot of our top mons. literally anything that can make it less reliant on sleep to take on talonflame or just weaken steels / poisons works well with it, with ribombee being a good example. other stuff that can bring it in against bulky waters or grounds like archeops, passimian, and togedemaru also help it get more setup opportunities. this is just to say that it's not actually not that niche or hard to support as u might think

ik i've talked about sleep a lot during this post and yes, it's useful as it makes lilligant less reliant on getting chip on its answers, but it absolutely does not need it. synthesis is a cool option if u want to switch into bulky waters and grounds more freely and also actually allows it to beat stuff like togedemaru and weezing more reliably, so it's pretty cool too, i just think sleep is stupid in general so

k now for replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1293966243-x14jzgszis0rf4ksxki23qnz7aungvkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1294881121 - ty chloe queen
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1291703452-w50n2nidsllkhq4t1u9vllharyvg451pw
if that's not enough pls lmk

lastly, here are the teams i used if anyone wants to try using lilligant!!
https://pokepast.es/eb3dadc80705f81a
https://pokepast.es/b7584ac6ef63a808
https://pokepast.es/833ae1c396971e21

 

[Xephyrr]

*B* to *B+*

To be honest, I believe Magneton shouldn't be this low. It's a Pokemon that has a total amount of 0 switch ins in the tier, it can pull off a Magnet Pull set (which, though, doesn't really have much sense, since it can't trap U-turn Togedemaru and in general steel removal isn't that valued in this tier because of most steels, such as Aggron and Sandslash-A, being offensive), but it can also pull off an Analytic Choice Specs set that literally takes a Pokemon every time it switches in with right prediction between the 2 moves it's meant to run.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Togedemaru: 191-225 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 439-517 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palossand: 333-393 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 169-199 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Its "bad" matchups are going to mostly be steel resist + ground type, but even then one wrong prediction and the steel resist is literally gone (see above), if you dont want to give any momentum to togedemaru volt will do 60% and get you out of the situation. Magneton's bad speed can be a hassle in the tier especially against offensive teams, but I think that the ability to singlehandedly break defensive cores without needing support is invaluable.

Oh, and

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 294-346 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

[gglrg]

I haven't posted in here yet so I will make some noms.

B+ to A-
I think aggron is worthy of the a ranks. Defensively it has the ability to check mons such as ribombee, silvally-fairy, defensive charizard and scyther and set up rocks safely against them. It also has a respectable 110 attack to sweep unprepared teams with a automize rock head set or just plain choice band which is so hard to switch into without a sandaconda or palossand. It obviously struggles against the plethora of fightings in the tier like passimian virizion and hitmontop but even those cant switch in sometimes

A to B
Why is this in A. Sure it's quick and has a stab knock off. But it's weak in practice without either a sd boost or band and other darks like absol guzzlord scrafty and arguably shiftry do better than it along with it's ability not to switch into basically anything. It needs a drop.

A- to A
This cute electric fish is great. The ability to come in on a volt from heliolisk is great and simultaneously heals itself, It soft checks multiple mons and is a solid cleric and gets a free switch in on enemy number #1 talonflame and also magmortar and just pivots/toxic/heal bells on them. It is for sure a top 5 defensive pokemon in this meta game and it should be moved up because of this.

B to higher
Omastar is very dangerous. It can just become an instant wincon without a bulky water like vaporeon jellicent and lanturn. Providing screens support helps this mon massively live hits when it sets up on something it could likely lose too. It has problems like sometimes not getting an opportunity to switch in, wanting to run modest but gets outsped by scarfers like toxicroak togedemaru and passimian but it's incredibly dangerous when it gets going.

B- to B
I think this should be bumped up again. There aren't that many special ghosts in this meta bar rotom and special froslass. It hit's a good speed in 317 and has a good spa of 115. It's coverage is very good in hitting darks with dazzling gleam and can cripple walls like audino gigalith and overall bulky mons for example vaporeon and lanturn.

B+ to B
With all the bulky waters in the tier, basculin struggles vs them especially vaporeon, lanturn and jellicent and even less bulky ones like clawitzer and niche picks like poliwrath and with basically cannot switch in to anything becuase it will take a chunk from almost anything in addition to hazards on the field.

B- to B
Alright here me out on this one. While it is outclassed by absol who has superior attack I think it's actually really solid. It has a few traits over absol like it's faster, secondary stab and slightly better bulk. It's stab combo is great only being resisted by some mons like ribombee and whimsicott virizion and guzzlord, but the 1st 2 are frail and can't really take a hit or switch in, unlike guzzlord and virizion who can. It can also act as defog support, but that's outclassed by other foggers like talonflame. And while a niche pick, shiftry can't scare out thinks like poliwrath that absol really can't. Another thing while niche, Shiftry can act as a big breaker with solar blade under the sun which can be a wincon sometimes.

to B+
This mon is great rn. It checks dangerous threats such as passimian virizion and hitmontop and tsareena, offer both spikes and toxic spikes, and can chip down a mon with rocky helmet+ aftermath, and ok recovery in pain split aswell as a stab gunk shot. It deserves a bump.





Those are the noms I feel strongly about and here are some noms from previous post that I agree with:

UR to ranked
B to B+
to lower

 

[Skankovich]

hiiii i have a dramatic nom but this is genuinely a top tier mon and I hope my minor levels of clout from the old days sway people

from UR to A

Gourgeist-Super @ Spell Tag
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Poltergeist
- Trick Room
- Synthesis

This can switch in on like legitimately half of the S to A ranks with its typing + fantastic physical bulk + recovery and punch holes or straight up sweep with TR. I'm just gonna dump a bunch of matchups under the hide:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 211-250 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the only move it has to threaten Geist. It can switch in on anything else on the mixed set and still live this hit, every other set is free real estate. In return:

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Virizion: 288-339 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 262-309 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-218 (49.7 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

If you're willing to let your Gourg get burned you can literally just stay in when this switches and click Poltergeist again. It will still kill after the burn and BB is barely doing 50 to you. Alternatively you just switch to something that threatens it and it won't be able to switch in to geist again even if it roosts.

252 Atk Archeops Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 232-280 (62 - 74.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

Wouldn't recommend switching in to this one, but the opportunity to set up TR is there given a free switch. If it's a Meteor Beam set stay away.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 243-286 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously not switching into this but it's dying hard to Poltergeist with minor chip

won't bother calcing: easy switch and easy kill / set up

won't bother calcing: easy offensive heliolisk answer! Beyond the bizarre Dark Pulse heliolisk I once encountered (gourg still ate though)

won't bother calcing: you 2hko each other. Can run a few more speed IVs to outspeed this outside of Trick Room if you'd like.

252 Atk Passimian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 170-200 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

Offensive Passimian answer! With longevity thanks to Synthesis! You obviously 2hko back.

Easy switch, Power Whip 3hkos

252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 91-108 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO

Zero lol. Easy switch, polt 1hkos.

LO Gunk Shots 2hkos and a LO Sludge Wave does too - wouldn't switch into it freely, but given a free switch you can easily eat a hit, set up TR and kill.

Won't bother calcing: easy switch and kill outside of the threat of Scald burn. Heal bell support helps.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 175-207 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You force a wish/tect out of it but otherwise a solid check to pumpkin. Only need a little chip before it can't switch in again.

252+ Atk Gourgeist-Super Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 320-378 (85.5 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Scarf sets can only switch in once after rocks. In a pinch you can actually set up TR on it at full hp since BB has a very low chance to kill. HDB Bulk Up sets are a much harder check.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 164-193 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

A solid check but you wear this down pretty fast, since you get plenty of switches vs most teams. Worth noting physical AV sets barely 2hko with knock.

Yeah you're not switching into this lol but Polt kills with TR up

252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 237-280 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Wouldn't switch into this freely but again, a set up opportunity if you need it in a pinch. Polt obviously kills.

252 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 135-159 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fairy: 205-243 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive silvally check! If you switch in on an SD you can click TR to deny Flame Charge value and chunk it massively before dying.

You die hard to Band but any other sets you win 1v1

You 2hko each other if it's running Bug Buzz (some seem to drop it?) but it will outspeed. A check!

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

You wear this down very fast since Pain Split is its best recovery, but a check nonetheless.

Specs hurricane kills and specs moonblast 2hkos, otherwise non-specs Moonblast can't even 2hko. Poltergeist is a near guaranteed kill with rocks up.

I'm bored and you are too probably so I'll stop there. The key takeaway is that this set is strongly anti-meta and exploits so many common mons and defensive cores really hard. You get a vast amount of switches for a mon with such a strong offensive presence and access to recovery to let you do it throughout a match. Most teams are still so unprepared for Poltergeist and this mon exploits it more than anything else.

To address competition with Trevenant, the vastly superior physical bulk Gourgeist has means it's switching in so so much more easily and access to synthesis means it's doing it across the entire match. After rocks and sand a max hp trev is at 50 after switching into a Gigalith rock blast, it's 2hko'd by a Passimian knock etc. It has way less opportunities to fire hits off than Gourg and it doesn't hit that much harder.

I think it can be compared to Eggy-Alola as a fat grass nuke with OTR potential. Gourg's typing and bulk gives it far more switchins than Eggy, Ghost is much more spammable than Grass or Dragon, Gourg's high BP STAB moves don't drop its stats and force it to switch out and finally Gourg's STABs have better coverage, freeing up space for recovery. Eggy is A-, and I think Gourg should be above it.

Anyway, replays:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1287098771-vzwp6adgb3y22c06mu4e01uw10odw7gpw - Gourg basically 6-0's a balance build of almost all A rank mons

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1294254600-4s4kiucj7s8azuy5y77wg3cz55qcaojpw - Gourg comes in at the start of a match and kills 2 mons, and then comes in at the end to kill another 3

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1290248460 - Pumpkin takes a hell of a beating from a band lycanroc and hax but still comes out in the end

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286990608-9hcr965dpjdr57iw5klhbqj68laplfhpw - Again, Gourg breaks early game and sweeps late game. The longevity that that has, the versatility that that has etc.

Also support Magneton going higher - has a tonne of defensive utility and hits really hard unlike Toge. I've been running Teleport in the last slot with Eviolite to exploit Toge and Lanturn switchins, especially since all Toge can do is click U-turn on you.

 

[Troylenderson_III]

A-Rank

A+

• Braviary
• Guzzlord
• Magmortar
• A Jellicent
• 
  
• Mesprit
• Uxie

B+

• Xatu
• Galvantula
• Garbodor

• B+ Ranking
• Ferroseed
• Haunter
• Malamar
• Rhydon

 

[termi]

A -> A+: I was skeptical about this mon for a while because it is rather weak, but I've come to think of it as nigh essential on offensive teams due to the huge number of roles it can fulfill. Its typing gives it an amazing amount of key resistances (Fighting, Ground, Dragon, Dark, Water, Grass) allowing it to check the likes of Virizion, bulky Water and Ground types, Guzzlord, and a number of other threats. It happens to pair amazingly with Talonflame, providing a secondary check to some of the threats Talonflame tries to check (primarily Fighting types) while also being a switchin to a lot of the bulky mons that like to come in on Talonflame. Its speed tier is really good and allows it to be a decent offensive threat with Specs, but I've found offensive utility sets to be even better. One major reason for this is that having access to Knock Off is incredibly good in a meta where your most common switchin is Talonflame (probably Charizard after next shift) and where removing HDB generally is often key to making progress - I would argue if you don't have Knock or Switcheroo on Whimsi you're using it wrong, at least for as long as Talon is in the tier. Aside from this, Whimsi has a stellar support movepool with options like Defog (matches well vs common SR setters like Palossand, Sandaconda, Regirock), U-Turn, Encore, Tailwind, and other niche options, most of which get Prankster priority. This versatility in tandem with its amazing typing means that despite its shortcomings (kinda frail, kinda weak) Whimsi functions practically as an instant improvement to any offensively inclined team, gluing it together while filling whichever role you need it to fill.

A+ -> A: When I initially voted this to go A+ people weren't running Fairy types very often and Toxicroak was below the ZU cutoff, meaning BU sets had many matchups where it just straight up won. Since then, all Fairy types in the A ranks have pretty much become staples and Toxicroak is also valued way more, meaning Scrafty just isn't as a consistent of a wincon with its BU sets while its DD sets still find themselves lacking somewhat in the speed department. Still a dangerous mon that should not be forgotten in the builder, but neither as crazy nor as splashable as I initially imagined.

A+ -> A-: Usually I would go more into detail with this nom but since we're probably losing this soon I'll try to keep it short. Basically I think the flaws of Vaporeon are understated by most. Its reliance on WishTect heavily limits what it can run and renders it rather passive, restricting its ability to function to fat balance teams et cetera which I just do not think perform as well as more offensive and momentum-heavy teams in this meta. To add insult to this, Vaporeon is the biggest Toxicroak bait in history, which is very bad news when you consider NP Toxicroak has very little proper defensive counterplay. See this replay of my LTPL finals game to see NP Croak in action against a Vaporeon team: despite some sloppy plays on my end and Punny's clever pivoting, Croak still manages to net 2 KOs because of the sheer amount of opportunities it gets. Despite its many positive qualities, Vaporeon is not as "splashable" as many seem to think it is and forces you into pretty specific and passive building patterns in order to accommodate for its flaws, so I believe it should drop a few subranks.

B+ -> A-: Likely will only get better if we lose Vappy but it is already sorta underrated here. Very little wants to switch into Liquidation/Body Slam/Knock Off, it basically 2HKOs the entire tier bar Vaporeon, Colbur Jelli, and defensive Druddigon I guess? Meanwhile you can put Agility in its last slot to turn into a cleaner or run SD to break past your checks. Speed tier is not too shabby either for a mon this absurdly strong.

B+ -> A-: Ghost resists in this tier are not exactly easy to fit on a lot of teams and the days of running itemless mons to check Poltergeist users is behind us, so CB Froslass has a field day spamming its STABs in the current meta. Its ice STAB (Crash > Axel btw) synergizes very well with it and it has access to tools like Trick and Spikes to remain useful against teams with sturdy checks to it (i.e. Vaporeon). Provides an offensive Virizion check, a Fighting immunity, basically an all-around great mon as long as you can keep hazards off. This is without even getting into HDB sets that are more dedicated to setting hazards and still seem to function really well in this meta, although I'm personally less familiar with them currently.

B -> B+: Best defensive Spikes setter bar none as far as I can tell. Still not amazing per se, definitely has its flaws, but it synergizes well with a lot of common bulky mons and it's one of the few things that can hope to check NP Toxicroak for bulky teams even if it's not incredibly reliable. In any case, deserves better than B for sure.

A- -> B?: Hard to say where this belongs but the A ranks are not it I don't think. Mesprit simply does offensive sets better, Uxie mostly functions as a utility mon as far as I can tell but it just isn't that great? It doesn't check a lot with its typing in a tier where offensive Grounds are not a thing and Fighting types still smack it (Virizion chunks with Leaf Storm, Passimian U-Turns out for supereffective damage, Toxicroak hits hard with Gunk/Knock/SBall), meanwhile the role of "fast SR setter that can pivot out" is not nearly as valuable in a gen where anything vulnerable to rocks runs HDB. It gets some nifty tools and all but I really don't see how this belongs anywhere the A ranks.

B+ -> B: I have used this and it really is not so bad, it works on offensive teams as an SR setter with a momentum nabbing move (do not run Rapid Spin on this I promise it's bad) and a good set of resistances. However, B+ is I think really overstating its case. It remains very weak and between the amount of weaknesses it has and its somewhat disappointing bulk, its lasting power is very limited.

Some responses to things that have not been addressed yet:

Unranked -> B

A glaring omission in leaving Poliwrath off of the rankings. I appreciate Toxicroak is generally considered better but Poliwrath has a lot of movepool options Croak lacks and has better stats all around.

I've been running a Sub/Bulk Up set that sets up on half the tier and puts a lot of work. I'll post replays soon to back this up but B feels like a good place for it.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Substitute
- Poison Jab / Darkest Lariat
- Bulk Up

Edit:
Here's a few quick replays. I didn't win them all but they show off Poliwrath well. Note that Toxicroak couldn't have set up in most of these situations.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285815252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285677087
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285682553
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285685832
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285674061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1285969445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286971745

I love Poliwrath and it may still have a niche somewhere, but I don't think this is it. SubBU sets are very lacking in immediate power and will not easily break past any competent core. I checked out your replays and with all due respect to your opponents, Poliwrath's performance typically was contingent on a combination of poor teambuilding on your opponent's end and blatant misplays that gave Poliwrath easy setup turns that it should not have gotten. A Weezing without Sludge Bomb makes for easy setup bait of course, but nobody should be running Weezing without Sludge Bomb, and against a good Weezing set this Poliwrath set makes basically no progress ever. Fact is that with the limited amount of coverage it can run and its lackluster power, this set does not really break most of the top of the metagame. You're probably better off just going fully offensive with Toxicroak or opting for a bulky Water that fits better in this meta, such as Lanturn.

C to UR (what niche do these occupy again? I can't see any, but would be glad if someone defended these, because they either feel outclassed or useless.)

Can't say I have used these much but Carbink and Ludicolo likely got ranked because of their respective roles on certain styles of hyperoffense (Carbink being a suicide SR setter for TR teams, Ludicolo being a Rain sweeper) although I don't think either playstyle has proven itself to be particularly worthwhile in the meta. Drifblim can function as an Unburden sweeper with Terrain support from Thwackey, again not a playstyle I'm sure I really rate but apparently Thwackey is in B rank so there must be something to it. Cramorant basically is just annoying with its ability but I don't really know what kind of team you would seriously fit it on so it probably should go unranked unless someone can prove its value.

*B* to *B+*

To be honest, I believe Magneton shouldn't be this low. It's a Pokemon that has a total amount of 0 switch ins in the tier, it can pull off a Magnet Pull set (which, though, doesn't really have much sense, since it can't trap U-turn Togedemaru and in general steel removal isn't that valued in this tier because of most steels, such as Aggron and Sandslash-A, being offensive), but it can also pull off an Analytic Choice Specs set that literally takes a Pokemon every time it switches in with right prediction between the 2 moves it's meant to run.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Togedemaru: 191-225 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 439-517 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palossand: 333-393 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 169-199 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Its "bad" matchups are going to mostly be steel resist + ground type, but even then one wrong prediction and the steel resist is literally gone (see above), if you dont want to give any momentum to togedemaru volt will do 60% and get you out of the situation. Magneton's bad speed can be a hassle in the tier especially against offensive teams, but I think that the ability to singlehandedly break defensive cores without needing support is invaluable.

Oh, and

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 294-346 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Magneton doesn't have 0 switchins, Lanturn is common and beats it extremely hard now that it can't even chip with Hidden Power anymore, also Togedemaru should be running Lightningrod on teams without other Electric immunities. Beyond that, while it's definitely scary with Specs Analytic, it's simply a cut below a lot of the other breakers in the tier currently. It's not particularly fast and despite its good defensive typing, it does not safely switch in on much due to its lackluster bulk. What's more, in the few turns it does get throughout a match, it is not guaranteed that it will do any breaking because Electric immunities are basically essential and Steel is kind of a bad offensive typing, leaving it without a truly "clickable" move. Sets that try to take advantage of its good defensive typing by Eviolite, meanwhile, run into the problem that it has no means of recovery and doesn't actually check a whole lot of top threats.

hiiii i have a dramatic nom but this is genuinely a top tier mon and I hope my minor levels of clout from the old days sway people

from UR to A

Gourgeist-Super @ Spell Tag
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Poltergeist
- Trick Room
- Synthesis

This can switch in on like legitimately half of the S to A ranks with its typing + fantastic physical bulk + recovery and punch holes or straight up sweep with TR. I'm just gonna dump a bunch of matchups under the hide:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 211-250 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the only move it has to threaten Geist. It can switch in on anything else on the mixed set and still live this hit, every other set is free real estate. In return:

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Virizion: 288-339 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 262-309 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-218 (49.7 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

If you're willing to let your Gourg get burned you can literally just stay in when this switches and click Poltergeist again. It will still kill after the burn and BB is barely doing 50 to you. Alternatively you just switch to something that threatens it and it won't be able to switch in to geist again even if it roosts.

252 Atk Archeops Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 232-280 (62 - 74.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

Wouldn't recommend switching in to this one, but the opportunity to set up TR is there given a free switch. If it's a Meteor Beam set stay away.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 243-286 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously not switching into this but it's dying hard to Poltergeist with minor chip

won't bother calcing: easy switch and easy kill / set up

won't bother calcing: easy offensive heliolisk answer! Beyond the bizarre Dark Pulse heliolisk I once encountered (gourg still ate though)

won't bother calcing: you 2hko each other. Can run a few more speed IVs to outspeed this outside of Trick Room if you'd like.

252 Atk Passimian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 170-200 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

Offensive Passimian answer! With longevity thanks to Synthesis! You obviously 2hko back.

Easy switch, Power Whip 3hkos

252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 91-108 (24.3 - 28.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO

Zero lol. Easy switch, polt 1hkos.

LO Gunk Shots 2hkos and a LO Sludge Wave does too - wouldn't switch into it freely, but given a free switch you can easily eat a hit, set up TR and kill.

Won't bother calcing: easy switch and kill outside of the threat of Scald burn. Heal bell support helps.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 175-207 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You force a wish/tect out of it but otherwise a solid check to pumpkin. Only need a little chip before it can't switch in again.

252+ Atk Gourgeist-Super Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 320-378 (85.5 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Scarf sets can only switch in once after rocks. In a pinch you can actually set up TR on it at full hp since BB has a very low chance to kill. HDB Bulk Up sets are a much harder check.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 164-193 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

A solid check but you wear this down pretty fast, since you get plenty of switches vs most teams. Worth noting physical AV sets barely 2hko with knock.

Yeah you're not switching into this lol but Polt kills with TR up

252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 237-280 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Wouldn't switch into this freely but again, a set up opportunity if you need it in a pinch. Polt obviously kills.

252 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 135-159 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fairy: 205-243 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive silvally check! If you switch in on an SD you can click TR to deny Flame Charge value and chunk it massively before dying.

You die hard to Band but any other sets you win 1v1

You 2hko each other if it's running Bug Buzz (some seem to drop it?) but it will outspeed. A check!

252+ Atk Spell Tag Gourgeist-Super Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

You wear this down very fast since Pain Split is its best recovery, but a check nonetheless.

Specs hurricane kills and specs moonblast 2hkos, otherwise non-specs Moonblast can't even 2hko. Poltergeist is a near guaranteed kill with rocks up.

I'm bored and you are too probably so I'll stop there. The key takeaway is that this set is strongly anti-meta and exploits so many common mons and defensive cores really hard. You get a vast amount of switches for a mon with such a strong offensive presence and access to recovery to let you do it throughout a match. Most teams are still so unprepared for Poltergeist and this mon exploits it more than anything else.

To address competition with Trevenant, the vastly superior physical bulk Gourgeist has means it's switching in so so much more easily and access to synthesis means it's doing it across the entire match. After rocks and sand a max hp trev is at 50 after switching into a Gigalith rock blast, it's 2hko'd by a Passimian knock etc. It has way less opportunities to fire hits off than Gourg and it doesn't hit that much harder.

I think it can be compared to Eggy-Alola as a fat grass nuke with OTR potential. Gourg's typing and bulk gives it far more switchins than Eggy, Ghost is much more spammable than Grass or Dragon, Gourg's high BP STAB moves don't drop its stats and force it to switch out and finally Gourg's STABs have better coverage, freeing up space for recovery. Eggy is A-, and I think Gourg should be above it.

Anyway, replays:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1287098771-vzwp6adgb3y22c06mu4e01uw10odw7gpw - Gourg basically 6-0's a balance build of almost all A rank mons

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1294254600-4s4kiucj7s8azuy5y77wg3cz55qcaojpw - Gourg comes in at the start of a match and kills 2 mons, and then comes in at the end to kill another 3

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1290248460 - Pumpkin takes a hell of a beating from a band lycanroc and hax but still comes out in the end

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286990608-9hcr965dpjdr57iw5klhbqj68laplfhpw - Again, Gourg breaks early game and sweeps late game. The longevity that that has, the versatility that that has etc.

Also support Magneton going higher - has a tonne of defensive utility and hits really hard unlike Toge. I've been running Teleport in the last slot with Eviolite to exploit Toge and Lanturn switchins, especially since all Toge can do is click U-turn on you.

Interesting set, never really considered TR Gourgeist but it actually works now. Both this and Smallgeist should definitely be ranked, although A rank probably is a little excessive for the moment. Definitely very scary as long as people refuse to run Ghost resists though, but against teams with Ghost resists it shouldn't be too difficult to limit the amount of damage it can do by stalling out TR turns with clever switches. Still, cool set, something like B+ seems fair for it for the moment imo.

 

[2xTheTap]

Council (minus Many and Ktut) voted on your recent VR nominations over the weekend. Per usual, we provided some of our own noms too (marked with *). Here are the results:

DROPS
A
A+ to A
A+ to A
A to A-
A to A-

B
A to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
B+ to B
B+ to B
* B+ to B
* B+ to B
* B to B-
* (Dark) B to B-
* (Ground) B to B-
* (Dragon) B to B-

C
* B to C
* B to C
* (Water) B to C
* B to C
* B- to C
B- to C
* B- to C

UR
C to UR

RISES
A
* A to A+
A to A+
B to A
A- to A
* (Small) UR to A-
B to A-
B+ to A-
B+ to A-

B
* B to B+
B to B+
(Super) UR to B+
* B to B+
B- to B
B- to B

C
UR to C
UR to C
* UR to C

Much of this update was used to address some of the rank inflation in the VR; now that the meta has been stable for a couple of months and everyone has had a chance to use pretty much everything on the list, a lot of the hype for certain Pokemon has died down, giving us a more accurate picture of the meta as a whole. Reasons for dropping each Pokemon varied: some are still very potent in their respective roles they play, but can be easy to abuse in certain cases (ex. Palossand); others were more difficult to build with without opening up your team to common weaknesses, and so their usage is lower as a result (ex. Sneasel); and, some were simply outclassed by Pokemon of the same type (ex. Hitmonlee is not seen very often compared to something like Toxicroak or Passimian).

One big meta trend that is visible when you look at the Pokemon we gave a bump (Skankovich spoke about this when he posted about OTR Gourgeist-XL, and I know termi has been talking about it in Discord) is that players continue to forget their Ghost resist over and over again. There are countless teams on the forums, on the ladder, from LTPL, ones I rated for Teambuilding Lab, etc. that were all missing a Ghost resist (either inadvertently, or it could also be that defensive cores in this meta are simply more vulnerable to offensive Ghost-types, but the reason for this is more or less besides the point). Trevenant, Haunter, Froslass, Gourgeist-Super, Gourgeist-Small, Cofagrigus all therefore went up in rank. Even if you've gone out of your way to build with an immunity or a resist, ex. Braviary to switch into and threaten Gourgeist, or Thick Fat Miltank to eat either Poltergeist or Triple Axel from CB Froslass, they can easily still claim KOs despite you having prepped with them in mind (ex. CB Trevenant with Drain Punch takes a big chunk out of Guzzlord), and so which Ghost dismantles your team is determined to some extent by match-up.

Another thing we focused on was parsing out where our offensive Water-types should be ranked, and which are capitalizing on current meta trends. In particular, Omastar has been on our minds for a while, as this does extremely well in a meta where Talonflame is ubiquitous and other bulky Water-resists that are touted as defensive answers to Omastar like Lanturn are liable to be OHKOed with a small amount of prior chip. Omastar is also pushing some other meta trends forward, ex. your Speed control should ideally be faster than 458 Spe (+2 Timid Omastar), which then propels usage of CS Rotom, CS Togedemaru, and CS Gourgeist-Small forward in turn. Other options like Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, AV or Boots Guzzlord, Encore or Stun Spore Whimsicott are used in a similar capacity, and I think their usage may not be as high as it is now, if not for Omastar's presence in the meta.
Going down from Omastar, we more or less parsed out our offensive Water-types in this order of effectiveness: Omastar (A) > Kingler (A-) > Arctovish, Clawitzer, Kabutops (B+) > Basculin (B). Realistically, the gap between these isn't that great, but Basculin struggles a bit more than the others, in that it is more prediction-reliant (ex. Psychic Fangs must be clicked on the correct turn to remove Toxicroak) while the others didn't have that issue to quite the same extent, or were more threatening out the gate or post-setup.

Last (because it is getting late and I have work in the morning, rip), but not least, we talked about ranking something that's been around for the entirety of the meta but that we haven't used before, Slowpoke. Slowpoke has been dabbled with as early as ORAS and been conceptualized as an off-meta switch-in to Monferno and Floatzel, but tlenit discovered a niche for it this gen in Teleport + Regenerator. Between its great bulk (ex. 252 Atk Togedemaru Zing Zap vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 134-162 (34.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), the fact it's refilling its HP when Teleport is used, and its ability to spread burns and paralysis, it makes for an ideal slow pivot that can switch in on the likes of Passimian and Talonflame (and other offensive pivots) to bring in whatever offensive threats you like.

Free Slowpoke team, enjoy (click the sprites)!



Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1303848015-3607znevf4c662qmy9dkzunbjhsz9jipw

 

[BulbaBrain]

Hi VR,

A nom about Archeops here.

A+ to A/A-
At the start of this meta I was claiming that this was going to be too much - broken. Now I thoroughly disagree. Archeops has plummeted in recent usage and has only really been used as an offensive pivot with Boots or a Suicide Lead. The suicide lead set only really puts its work in on HO teams, and the Boots set isn't great either as Archeops has severe 4mss on physical sets, wanting to run all of Rocks, EQ, Edge, DWB, Roost, U-turn and Knock. Of course, there are other cool sets such as Power Herb (there's a spicy Acro twist on it i'll put in a paste down below), itemless Acro, and CB, but that has seen next to no usage and the prevalence of physically bulky pokemon (take Vape, Tisse, Weezing for a start) just makes it worse. Until I get convinced people are using the sets with more potential and we aren't spamming physically defensive Pokemon, I'm totally disagreeing with S/A+ and putting it in A-, A if you're generous.

 

[iceblazer]

Quick nom

a- -> a
This mon is criminally underrated as of now. SwSh blessed this mon with new coverage in the form or Close Combat and Psychic Fangs which allows it to pummel through many staples in the tier. Not many mons outside of Palossand, Sandaconda, and Claydol can take on the combination that is Rock/Fighting/Psychic. Additionally, it pairs very well with other staples such as Gigalith to boost its already great speed to crazy high levels and Talon to burn stuff to cushion blows for Lycan. Also, it’s speed tier is really nice, it’s one of the few mons that outspeeds Virizion, Archeops, and Heliolisk (less so for Arch because of Accelrock but hey it’s still an achievement), so that it can smash them with coverage and STABs, and what more can be said about checking the Big Three? In short, I implore you all to try this mon out, it won’t disappoint.

 

[termi]

A VR update should be happening in the not-too-distant future, so I figured it would be a good opportunity to discuss some of the changes I'd like to see to the VR, as the meta has undergone quite a few changes. Overly long post incoming.

Rises:

A+ -> S: Passimian has always been one of the best Pokemon in PU since it dropped, but it was held back somewhat by Talonflame, forcing it to think twice about clicking U-Turn or CC for fear of Flame Body and practically forcing Rock Slide in its last slot. Ever since Talonflame's departure, however, it has become incredibly easy and risk-free to pilot Passimian and it has more room to run something like Gunk Shot or Earthquake depending on which check you want to get rid of. It's very difficult to prep for on more offensive teams, as frailer offensive checks like Whimsicott and Toxicroak need pretty minor chip to be in range of a CC 2HKO while also being at risk of getting deleted by one of the aforementioned coverage moves. As a result in certain matchups it feels more like a breaker with tremendous speed rather than a "mere" revenge killer or lategame cleaner. Moreover, against bulkier teams, its ability to U-Turn on a switch into some fat check (i.e. Sandaconda, palossand, Weezing) makes it a very good partner to dangerous slow breakers like Eggy-A which prey on these fat mons. This is all without even going into CB Passimian, which is harder to fit but incredibly threatening, sporting practically no reliable switchins. Easily the best offensive threat in the meta in my estimation.

A -> A+: Scrafty's brief stint below A+ should come to an end here. Recent meta trends have made straight-up offense less favorable than before, as it is often hard to account for things like Passimian and Charizard without relying on fatter cores. BU Scrafty obviously preys on such fat cores, as it finds plenty of opportunity to come in and force progress by spamming Knock, while being an insanely good wincon once the opposing Fairy has gone down. It also provides a lot of utility thanks to its great special bulk, a rare Ghost resist, and its ability to absorb status. DD Scrafty also deserves a mention, as it is incredibly threatening on hyperoffense with Webs and/or Screens support.

A- -> A: The slightly fatter nature of the meta and the tendency of things like Passimian and Archeops to bait in slow physically defensive mons has been great news for Eggy-A, as it finds itself with plenty of opportunity to come in and be incredibly threatening. Between its insanely powerful dual STAB and Flamethrower, it literally has no hard counters. Teams often have to rely on a combination of something like Zard + Fairy + maybe a Togedemaru in order to keep it at bay, but losing a 50/50 against Eggy typically means part of your defensive core gets obliterated, and if Eggy loses a 50/50 it often isn't the end of the world as aforementioned pivot support and a few useful resistances give it a decent amount of opportunity to come back in and try again later. Easily one of the most threatening breakers around, so a rise is in order.

B+ -> A: Speaking of guy's that come in and break shit, CB Aggron similarly is an absolute menace in the current meta. While it has a few more hard counters than Eggy-A (which is to say, Palossand exists, although I find it difficult to build with sometimes - more on that later), it also has a vastly more spammable STAB in Head Smash, which just absolutely obliterates the majority of the meta. Even a "resist" like Passimian takes somewhere upward of 60% from it. As a result, if you're not running a bulky Ground or something like a Gurdurr, you can't hope to play around it through scouting with Protect the way you would with some other choice-locked breakers. Also, Aggron's defensive typing obviously leaves it with a lot of resistances that give it opportunity to come in. I find it very difficult to account for Aggron without exposing myself to Eggy-A currently, and I find that both are fairly easy to build with, so I would put them roughly on the same level in terms of how threatening they are.

B+ -> A: Should've probably already moved up to the A ranks before, but I suppose I was hesitant. In any case, despite missing a friend in Vaporeon (which, in all honesty, I always thought was overrated), Garbodor finds itself as one of the easiest defensive glues to slap on a team currently. Its defensive typing and Rocky Helmet allows it to punish monki flip (Passimian) while also providing a team with one of the more reliable checks to Toxicroak and a reliable counter to SD Silvally-Fairy (big threat). Thanks to its speed and Gunk + Tantrum, it finds itself being less easily exploited by slow breakers than other walls, while access to Spikes ensures that it can force progress against team with sturdy checks like Sandaconda. Helmet + Aftermath also is really useful as an emergency stop to a plethora of physical breakers and sweepers. Overall a really solid mon.

B+ -> A-: Ughhh. I hate Xatu. However, it can't be denied that it's been picking up some steam as of late, whether it be for its role as a setter or sweeper on Screens teams or as hazard control on balance teams. Sandaconda is presently really good but its SR set tends to get totally owned by the latter set, while Xatu can prevent Garbodor and Ribombee from setting Spikes and Webs respectively with the right amount of investment. Its impact on the meta feels more noticeable than before, so a small rise feels in order.

B -> B+: I tend to prefer Archeops for its better defensive typing, but Scyther surely has gotten a bit better ever since Virizion left. Not much to say on it.

B- -> B: Ironically seems better with Omastar out of the way, as it doesn't need to run terrible Bullet Seed anymore. Not fantastic by any means but as far as bulky Steel types with hazard support go it's your best bet, a small rise seems fine.

B- -> B: No more Talonflame to ruin its day by outspeeding and OHKOing even after a QD, it's pretty threatening in all honesty. Still has some issues with common mons like Togedemaru and Gigalith, and Scarf Passimian still outspeeds and KOs if you can't get more than one boost, but definitely a decent pick in this meta.


Drops:

A+ -> A: Still a great mon, but it definitely has some issues that make it just a bit worse than the top of the meta imo. First off, Vaporeon being gone and something like Jellicent just not filling the hole means there's less opportunity for Heliolisk to come in and be threatening. Furthermore, Togedemaru is as good as ever and just shuts it down with Lightningrod, especially the Wish set. That aside though, I also find that generally there aren't a lot of things currently that Heliolisk can come in on and threaten with a KO, and because of its sad bulk anything it can't OHKO can threaten it with an OHKO or at least severely damage it. A tiny bump down in the rankings is in order for the lizard.

A -> B: My war against passive clerics continues. In theory, Aromatisse looks like a fantastic mon, sporting nice bulk, a great typing, and a meaty Wish. However, the problem is that it is an incredible momentum suck. First off, it is Knock bait for common threats like Passimian and BU Scrafty, which severely cuts into its longevity and forces it to Wish itself up more often than you'd want it to, especially if hazards are up. Toxic also massively annoys it and forces it to click Heal Bell, meaning many walls it could otherwise exploit can keep it from gaining any momentum. Whenever it is forced to heal itself or remove status for itself, it drains momentum, which is incredibly annoying when your opponent runs an offensive threat that takes advantage of it (i.e. Aggron, Silvally-Steel (use SD), Toxicroak) or a hazard setter like Garbodor. Such threats are very hard to check and I've found that I'm inevitably forced into running passive builds to be able to absorb hits from the threats that take advantage of Aromatisse, but because such defensive mons are often also reliant on Aromatisse passing Wishes to them, these builds often just lose in the long run because Aromatisse often struggles to find the opportunity to pass Wishes. Any team that can keep up momentum versus these teams is very heavily favored, and I've found myself strongly preferring Wish Togedemaru if I do feel the need to run a Wish mon, as its defensive utility is greater, it sports a Toxic immunity, and is generally more annoying to deal with because of Spiky Shield and U-Turn/Toxic giving it more opportunity to whittle teams or gain momentum.

A -> A-: This mon realistically isn't any better than Sandaconda as far as bulky Grounds go (in fact Sandaconda might deserve a rise, not entirely sure though). On paper it does a lot, being a rocker with reliable recovery and the right bulk and typing to check top threats like Passimian and Archeops, but at the same time it is very exploitable. It is often forced to eat a Knock, meaning it has to give up hazards immunity or passive recovery, and the aforementioned things it checks have a habit of running U-Turn, which can often lead to situations where the Palossand user is immediately forced out. Builds that utilize Eggy-A are especially concerning for it, as this mon has no hard counters with Specs and will eventually click the right move and take out a part of your defensive backbone, provided that it gets the opportunity to do so. Some other meta trends also annoy it, such as Croak being special more often than not and Xatu seemingly catching on a bit, forcing it to run Shadow Ball and in turn leaving no room for Toxic. By all means still a fine pick, but I believe its flaws become more apparent as time goes on.

A -> B+: It has its use as an Archeops check and a more reliable Passimian check and all that, but I find Weezing pretty hard to justify over the main competition in Garbodor a lot of the time. For one, it obviously lacks Spikes, instead sporting the less reliable Toxic Spikes (Toxicroak says hello). This makes it a lot harder to really force progress with Weezing, especially against teams that sport a status absorber like Scrafty or Sandaconda. Much like Palossand, it also really does not appreciate Toxicroak's tendency to go special, as it turns from a great check into potential setup fodder (Flamethower helps, or Psybeam if you're really desperate, but I find Weezing already has a case of 4MSS as is). Garbodor finds it much easier to check Toxicroak thanks to Stomping Tantrum and greater special bulk. Moreover, Weezing's lacking Speed stat means that it finds itself outpaced and severely threatened by Specs Eggy-A/CB Aggron before it can respectively Sludge Bomb/Wisp them, unless you're willing to severely cut into your bulk - meanwhile Garbodor requires 56 Speed EVs to outpace Aggron, which is much more acceptable. Overall, not the easiest thing to justify currently in my experience.

A- -> B: I love Jelli, but in this gen it admittedly just kinda sucks. I don't think Vappy's departure has really done much to improve its situation, and it runs into many of the same problems Palossand does while checking even less and lacking Stealth Rock. Terrible case of 4MSS, needing Gleam to not be fodder for Scrafty/Guzzlord/Eggy-A, Wisp to deal with physical Croak (and anyway, you're helpless against special), Toxic to not be bait for Heliolisk or any random wall, and then you would also like to have both of your STABs and maybe Taunt or something. Maybe it has untapped potential, but I'm beginning to suspect it just does not fit into SS PU.

A- -> B+: You may begin to notice a pattern here, as I do not care very much for slowish, passive-ish walls that provide a ton of utility on paper but are very sad in practice. Lanturn obviously has one of the most fantastic defensive typings + abilities in the meta, providing you with an Electric immunity, a Fire check (until you run into EQ Zard), and a pivot in one. This makes it tempting to slap it on a team to glue things together, but after doing so, you realize that it sucks and is bad. On defensive sets, it would really like to have Heal Bell, as it is a Toxic magnet, but you need all of Scald/VSwitch/Tox/Tect in my experience, as giving up Toxic leaves you way too passive while passing up Tect means you can't scout against choice-locked threats like Passimian or Eggy-A. Speedy AV sets can alleviate its tendency to let in scary breakers, but are in turn even easier to wear down and even bigger Toxic bait. It's also just really weak in general whether you invest in SpA or not.

A- -> B+: This thing is fine. I don't really have much to say on it but really, it just doesn't feel like something belonging in the A ranks. A little on the weak side, not having the speed or power of Heliolisk while also lacking a lot of the defensive utility of Toge, it just rarely compels me to use it. Scarf sets are decent and NP sets can really abuse teams that use Sandaconda without Stone Edge, but like, eh. Doesn't care much for Scrafty and Guzzlord being as good as they are, either.

A- -> B+: Vikavolt looks dangerous on paper and yet, idk, I just don't find myself wanting to use it, like ever. Its speed and bulk always feel just a little too disappointing, never quite checking threats like Passimian the way you would want it to, while offensively it is a little too hit-or-miss compared to other slow breakers that A: can afford to run boosting items and B: do not have reliable defensive counterplay. Meanwhile, I find that it doesn't really work as Webs support, as Webs I believe are much better on hyperoffensive playstyles where you would rather use fast Webs setters like Ribombee or even (sigh) Galvantula.

B+ -> B-: I'm gonna keep nomming this down until people catch on because this thing sucks and it sucks so bad. It's slower and more passive than Palossand while lacking recovery, it does not do what you want a Steel type to do, it also often does not do what you want a Ground type to do (i.e. you get deleted by Aggron EQ, you are Eggy-A bait), it hates the omnipresence of Fighting types, I could go on. It hates that it doesn't have access to Toxic, as it is just incredibly passive without it. Yawn sorta compensates, but you kinda need to pair it with Snap Trap in order to make things interesting, but at that point you have no room for Rock Slide and Charizard just shits all over you. Xatu shits all over you too no matter what. You might contend that it checks Heliolisk and Ribombee and all and that this is totally cool and gives it a worthwhile niche, but Wish Togedemaru does this too, does it better, and allows you to run a Rocker that does not suck (Gigalith!). I think this mon is very bad and B- is already merciful for it, but I will allow the possibility that it can technically, maybe do stuff that makes it worth running, although in most situations if I felt compelled to run this thing I would just start the building process over because something went wrong.

B+ -> B: You may have found yourself wondering occasionally: what if Mesprit was bad? The answer is: it would be like Uxie. To my estimation, the main sets that distinguish it from the competition are defensive SR sets and Screens sets. I don't find defensive SR sets that impressive, as they don't offer that much defensively over other Rockers, and where you do need it I sometimes find myself preferring defensive Mesprit anyway. The latter can be a sort of makeshift BU Scrafty check with Dazzling Gleam, while Uxie struggles to do significant damage to it - you can invest 240 EVs into SpA to be as powerful as Mesprit with no investment, but at that point you have less physical bulk than Mesprit. That aside, Mesprit's access to Hwish is also a useful boon. Meanwhile, as a Screens setter, Uxie finds itself pretty much outclassed by Xatu, as the ability to bounce hazards and Defog is currently more useful than access to SR on Screens teams. It's just not that great.

B -> UR: No more Snow Warning -> Aboma bad.

B -> lower: What is its niche over Passimian again? Mold Breaker EQ? A Boots Sturdy set that isn't really all that good? Just don't really see how you can justify this thing over the competition like, 99% of the time.

B- -> C: Haven't really felt compelled to run it for the Spin + Hazards role compression, especially since mons that try to do both things in practice only find opportunity to do one thing and not the other during a match. Just kinda functions as a suckier Gigalith in most respects. Feel free to let me know if it secretly has a worthwhile niche but I'm not really seeing it.


A couple of discussion points I'm unsure of but could be worth talking about:

A+ -> S: Zard is an incredibly centralizing force if nothing else. Bulky Defog sets provide great utility, specially offensive sets are very hard to deal with if you're not running Gigalith, and DD and Belly Drum sets flip the script on certain checks and can act as surprise wincons (BD Zard is especially annoying with Screens support). Despite its great offensive and defensive utility, it does have a few things setting it back, notably its tendency to be Knock bait, making matchups against Knock Whimsi + Gigalith especially annoying for it. Easily a top 3 mon, but I'm still unsure if it can soar to the same heights as Talonflame.

A+ -> A: Still a solid mon, but I find that it is a cut below the direct competition in Gigalith. Gigalith finds it easier to run Protect over Toxic since it can chip things with sand, while Regi kinda needs Toxic and as a result is more pressured by i.e. Eggy-A. It's also a lesser Zard check, sorta folding if Zard has SSands or FBlast. Does have some things going for itself, notably being an alright Archeops check and sort of an Aggron check thanks to its titanic physical bulk, but eh, could see this dropping.

 

[Expulso]

B- -> C: Haven't really felt compelled to run it for the Spin + Hazards role compression, especially since mons that try to do both things in practice only find opportunity to do one thing and not the other during a match. Just kinda functions as a suckier Gigalith in most respects. Feel free to let me know if it secretly has a worthwhile niche but I'm not really seeing it.

I find its niche to be Zard resist + Spiker that ups on Zard and Fairy resist; these are sometimes roles I like to compress onto a team, though it can be a momentum suck (especially when the opponent's spinner is Claydol - the best you do is ~30 from Overheat). Flame Body is also nice; I think B- is probably fine for it.

Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 56 Def / 88 SpA / 124 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes
- Stone Edge
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp

I found this spread sufficient; takes <25% from Specs RIbombee Moonblast, hits a phys def jump point to let you abuse Flame Body on phys attacks more, and some SpAtk to hit grounds like Sanda harder with Overheat. (You could probably invest more in SpAtk, tbh.) With the present lack of Water types that you acknowledged, I think Coal is decent.

<- free coalossal team

====

A -> B: My war against passive clerics continues. In theory, Aromatisse looks like a fantastic mon, sporting nice bulk, a great typing, and a meaty Wish. However, the problem is that it is an incredible momentum suck. First off, it is Knock bait for common threats like Passimian and BU Scrafty, which severely cuts into its longevity and forces it to Wish itself up more often than you'd want it to, especially if hazards are up. Toxic also massively annoys it and forces it to click Heal Bell, meaning many walls it could otherwise exploit can keep it from gaining any momentum. Whenever it is forced to heal itself or remove status for itself, it drains momentum, which is incredibly annoying when your opponent runs an offensive threat that takes advantage of it (i.e. Aggron, Silvally-Steel (use SD), Toxicroak) or a hazard setter like Garbodor. Such threats are very hard to check and I've found that I'm inevitably forced into running passive builds to be able to absorb hits from the threats that take advantage of Aromatisse, but because such defensive mons are often also reliant on Aromatisse passing Wishes to them, these builds often just lose in the long run because Aromatisse often struggles to find the opportunity to pass Wishes. Any team that can keep up momentum versus these teams is very heavily favored, and I've found myself strongly preferring Wish Togedemaru if I do feel the need to run a Wish mon, as its defensive utility is greater, it sports a Toxic immunity, and is generally more annoying to deal with because of Spiky Shield and U-Turn/Toxic giving it more opportunity to whittle teams or gain momentum.

I consider B too low for Aromatisse; sure, it doesn't like taking a Knock Off, but what does? Knock Off reduces the effectiveness of Aromatisse, but Aromatisse's very presence reduces the effectiveness of very threatening Dark-types like Pass, Scrafty, and Sneasel.

It is a very relevant mon to consider in the builder; teams often struggle to switch into and break Aromatisse, especially teams whose Fairy resists are, say, Zard and Scarf Toge. I think A is appropriate and wouldn't go below A-.

====

The rest of the VR updates you suggested look great. I look forward to trying some of the mons you discussed, since my teams have followed a pretty constant formula in this tier.

 

[Hera]

I feel like the meta has been given enough time to settle after shifts + bans so I’d thought I’d make a few (possibly controversial) noms.

Note: This post was in the process of being written before termi’s noms above, so I won’t comment on any of them. If we happen to agree, so be it.

Rises:


A+ to S

Generally, I am heavily against rises of mons to S. I feel that in a good meta, there will be either 0 or 1 S rank Pokémon, as more begins to make the meta too centralized imo. However, my recent experience with Gigalith has made me think very highly of it. With the rise of Xatu, Gigalith is a great choice at making Xatu at least think twice before switching in, as Rock Blast/Stone Edge will do a solid amount to even a Roosting Xatu, and unlike more offensive Rockers such as Rhydon, still has a sizeable amount of defensive utility. Gigalith is also very splashable as a Rocker despite Sand, as Gigalith + Fighting resist + Rock/Ground resist is an extremely common core capable of dealing with a majority of the meta such as Passimian, Aggron, and Mesprit. It solidly dictates meta trends like a top tier mon should, such as Aggron rising because it can abuse Quakeless variants.

However, one thing I think pushes Gigalith into S-tier is sand. Sand is so very good at controlling the pace of the game, and a good team with Gigalith can almost always pressure the opposing team well due to the chip it provides overtime. On builds such as balance and bulky offense, it is amazing at making damage from hazards or status stick, while on more defensive builds it is great at chipping down offensive threats that can’t heal themselves like NP Croak. Sand is one of the main reason for many new meta trends: the resurgence of SD SIlvally-Steel in order to beat Gigalith, stuff like Perrserker and Rain stuff being on the VR in the first place, the overwhelming amount of defensive Ground-types like Sandaconda on the rise despite the rise of Xatu, and Sand’s rise from being a niche hyper-offense playstyle to...well, it’s still a niche HO playstyle, but it actually puts in a lot more work than one would think, and even with Hail being banned I still think it would’ve done as well. The way Sand dictates the pace of games is absolutely worthwhile for any team, and I think this puts Gigalith on top of its competition.

Of course, Gigalith is not without its weaknesses. It’s Volt bait, neutral Rocks damage kinda sucks, and TSpikes (in fact any status) is horrible for this mon. However, I’ve found these weaknesses capable of being dealt with at the building level so much that I do not think that this seriously impacts its viability. Wish Toge is like a top 10 mon in the meta as well and happens to be an amazing partner for it, as it’s immune to Sand and U-turn chip works well with Sand in making damage stick. Weezing, especially NGas if you’re okay with needing a Ground resist, is another solid pick that loves being able to lay TSpikes for near free against Giga checks like Hitmontop. Between these three, it’s very easy to prepare for Gigalith counterplay.

Overall, I feel Gigalith is absolutely dominating the meta right now, with its splashablility, Sand, and ease to build around, and warrants a rise to reflect this.


A- to A

Eggy-A was always pretty good, but with the ban of Claw and Oma, two solid offensive checks, I think Eggy finally warrants a spot among the top dogs. Its dual STABs are quite amazing at quickly tearing holes in teams unless you’re amazing at prediction or running SpDef Golbat. Anything that can come in on Gigalith is automatically good, and the rise of Archeops and Passimian gives it two amazing partners that can pivot into Eggy-A for it. It’s not hard to build with Eggy-A right now, which makes it much more splashable onto teams. Overall just a good breaker that likes meta trends, not much else to say.


B+ to A

Unlike Eggy-A, who was already good but likes meta trends a bit more, Aggron was kinda underrated but has recently seen an explosion in usage and impact because Xatu is close to invalidating all but defensive Coil Sandaconda sets. If you do not have a bulky Rock resist (or your Rock resist is Togedemaru), you are either sacking a mon or accepting 60+ on a switchin if you guessed right. Even bulky Grounds aren’t surefire counterplay as someone at Game Freak decided it gets Aqua Tail, meaning if it predicts right, your Ground just blows up (unless your Ground is Palossand). Its typing is great at coming in on stuff like Togedemaru, Quakeless Gigalith, Aromatisse, and Mesprit while being able to launch off absolutely nuclear Head Smashes. Absolutely deserves a rise for its immense wallbreaking power and surprising defensive utility.


B+ to A-

Unfunny meme

I know I sound like a broken record, but hear me out. The rise of Ghosts such as Gourgeist-Small, Haunter, Froslass, and even HDB Jellicent naturally means something to pressure them is needed. With Sneasel’s nonexistent bulk + lacking power, combined with the general lack of priority that can threaten faster Ghosts, this means Absol has a valuable niche to fill in forcing out Ghost-types with the combination of Sucker Punch and Knock Off. With Screens on the rise, it also is able to fit on those teams due to its immense power with a Swords Dance backed with a nuclear KOff and a lack of Dark resists on offensive teams (there’s Passimian and the occasional Hitmonlee but that’s it) means it can easily plow through them. Finally, the lack of Flame means it has a much easier time spamming KOff. I think these three things do push Absol into deserving a rise.


B to B+

Very surprised at how low Hitmontop is. A spinner with its unique coverage is very valuable in this meta, and constantly having to guess between whatever 6 moves it can run (Bullet/Mach/Quake/Axel/CC/Thief) besides Spin is quite hard on team preview. While AV sets have fallen off, I think Heavy-Duty Boots sets are potent right now, as ignoring hazards damage and especially TSpikes while being able to pressure the main Spikes setters with its coverage is great, particularly for hazards stacking teams. While Tsareena does give it competition, being able to actually force out Froslass via Bullet while threatening Garbodor with a possible Earthquake gives it a valuable niche over it, although I would say they’re on a similar level.


C to B

A big jump, I know, but the leaving of Flame opens up a ton of options for this mon. Grassy Glide turns it into a great cleaner with either Band or SD, and most of the Grass resists in this tier are either squishy (Scarf Toge, Ribombee) or get Knocked and die (Charizard, Scyther). The ability to either Knock or U-turn on its check is absolutely amazing, and despite losing a great partner in Clawizter, it is able to pull its weight in an average match. Grassy Terrain is also a pretty solid playstyle right now, as while its abusers are niche, it can take advantage of common picks like Gigalith, Lanturn, and Palossand to easily set up and sweep from there. From a solid breaker to an enabler of a unique playstyle, I think Thwackey is able to take advantage of a bunch of things and rise above the competition.



UR to C

Okay I lost the replay I was going to pair with this so I understand if this is more of a “dude trust me” nom than anything, but I seriously think Sand is a legitimate, albeit niche, playstyle that can take advantage of the fact that a lot of teams are forgoing Ground resists right now (or their Ground resist is Levitate Weezing/Flying-type). The ability to overwhelm its checks is something I’ve enjoyed playing with recently, and these two + Lycanroc make for a great Sand core. It also lacks competition, as Hail is banned, Rain is rare, and Sun is effectively non-existent. Being an auto-weather gives Sand a niche over Rain, as it doesn't have to rely on offensive setters or Liepard to get Rain up. Sandslash has perfect coverage between Quake + Slide + Leech Life, and Dugtrio-A’s ability to take advantage of metagame staples like Weezing and Aromatisse is very valuable. I have even been using Duggy-A on non-Sand teams and its impact has been impressive. Overall worthy of a ranking for Sand niche imo.


Drops:


A+ to A-

I just praised the hell out of Gigalith, so it only seems fair I nom another Rocker, Regirock, down. Without Sand to passively pressure something and having to forgo Tect because it needs Rocks/Rock STAB/Toxic/Press, Regirock lasts less longer compared to Gigalith. Its amazing physical bulk looks good as a physical catch-all, until the fact that many popular physical breakers such as Silvally-Steel, Passimian, and Scrafty completely trash on it, while its lackluster special bulk means Eggy-A, NP Croak, and other popular special breakers constantly force it out and making it useless most of the time. It can’t even check what it wants to sometimes because it folds to Sands Zard, EPower Archeops (this is actually a thing trust me), and just repeated Head Smashes from Aggron. I really find it hard to justify over Gigalith, and even when I do it disappoints me.

(small)
A- to B+

Grouping these all together because they’re going to the same rank. Gourgeist-S’ initial ranking always felt like overkill to me because it hits like a wet blanket without Band and is mostly worse than Froslass with one. Ghost/Grass is always going to be a solid offensive typing barring Sap Sipper Miltank becoming an amazing mon, but I’ve unironically found the better sets to be lure ones like NP or SubSeed. I don’t think it’s a mon that deserves A- at least because of heavy competition from Froslass and other Ghost breakers. Rotom is actually surprisingly good but I really can’t see it at the same level as the other A- ranks. With Omastar gone, Scarf sets have seen a drop in usage because one of its main niches was always revenge killing a +2 Omastar even with Webs up, and utility sets are quite frail despite Rotom’s solid typing and fast speed. Any mon with Wisp, Defog, and three immunities is probably going to always be good but right now I feel it’s much too high. Finally, Vikavolt looks good on paper, but in practice it’s really hard to justify over other slow breakers like Eggy-A, Gourgeist-Super, or even Perrserker. You get completely walled by Lanturn and Togedemaru (although it gets Mud Shot which is cool) and can’t click Volt as much as you want because you’re just so slow and can’t force many switches. Without Boots, the only defensive utility it has is switching into Earthquake, and its okay bulk is easily offset by its typing giving it only one relevant resistance, Fighting. Despite having Volt and great power, it’s often a sink and harder to justify over other options.


B+ to B

I absolutely love Cofagrigus but I think its heyday has passed. The obvious rise of Xatu is only one of the trends currently working against it. Ribombee becoming more popular and simply sitting in front of it is not doing Cofa any favors, and the popularity of other Ghosts like Froslass just makes non-itemless Cofa’s life worse. Usually it would fall back on its unique defensive capabilities, but in a much more offensive meta with a rise in Screens usage, it is becoming increasingly harder for it to do so without being pressured by the myriad of offensive threats like Croak and Magmortar. It’s only a slight drop because I feel that Cofagrigus has enough options at its disposal to adapt to these changes (I have already seen sets that drop Rest for Split and Colbur for Helmet or OTR sets), but right now, I’m not seeing enough of that to warrant a continued B+ ranking.


B+ to B/B-

Another grouping of mons because I have not seen either of them make a meaningful contribution to a match in over a month. Kabutops was always a bit too high but just faces massive competition for whatever role it wants. Scarf? Passimian gets STAB CC, similar coverage, and pivoting that can’t be blocked. Offensive Rocker? Aggron has a worse speed tier and no Knock but Head Smash hits very hard, Archeops is much faster and can slot on Rocks if it wants, and Mesprit has Knock + Rocks + pivot move if you really want its role compression. Water breaker? Baculin hits much harder despite the lack of Rock STAB and its better speed tier provides more general utility for revenge killing. Anything with Rocks + Spin and is good on rain will probably be viable, but I really don’t see why Kabutops is so high up. Sneasel continues its drop into viability, as while no Flame is good for it to spam Knock and Axel, its presence as a fast breaker is less needed as teams are becoming more bulkier and offensive teams naturally have Dark and/or Ice resists. Band sets get only a few opportunities to break due to a Rocks weakness, and often do very little because of Sneasel’s disappointing attack. Swords Dance sets have to drop an important move and this leaves it walled by whatever defensive mon it happens to face. No Ice STAB means Weezing and other Poisons sit there, no Low Kick means Regirock and other Rocks do whatever they want, and no Ice Shard means you cannot deal with faster Pokémon that have chip such as Scarf Passimian and Ribombee. It just continues to get harder and harder to justify using and succeeding with these two.


C-Rank stuff:

With the meta in a stablish state, I think it’s time for the C-Rank to get the makeover it has needed for a while. I understand if this proposal is rejected because I am not a member of the council, but I would still like to most my idea of what a revamped C-Rank would look like.

First, I would like to see the current C-Rank divided into two ranks: C+ and C. I understand that C- is also usually seen, however, I personally find one to be quite useless when C+ and C can pretty much cover everything. I see C+ as mons that are niche but can easily fit on more teams, while C belongs to those either belonging to a specific playstyle or have the nichest of niches, however small they might be.

C+: ||

These are mons I feel hold a sizeable enough niche in the metagame that I can see myself either building around it or putting it on a non-niche playstyle with some form of success. This includes stuff that mostly “rose” from the former C-rank, but quite a few drops from the B ranks.

-Accelgor faces a strong amount of competition for its roles. As a Spikes setter, Froslass can spinblock its own hazards and has a great offensive typing, while Garbodor is a great option for more defensive teams. As a fast breaker, although it appreciates being able to go Modest and not lose out on anything, the lack of coverage does hurt it a bit, and a weakness to Rocks is not something you want a breaker to have unless its breaking power is massively worth it, which Accelgor’s is not. Knock + Spikes is cool but not worthy of B- imo.
-Kangaskhan faces very little competition as a Normal-type breaker; however, that is because there is very little need for a Normal-type breaker, especially one with Kanga’s lackluster coverage options. If I wanted a Normal breaker, I’d use Cinccino due to its higher damage output and better speed tier. Fake Out + Sucker is cool, but eh.
-Malamar is one of my favorite mons ever, so it saddens me to nom it down. Having to rely on RestTalk for recovery makes it inconsistent and it faces heavy competition from the top 10 mon that is Scrafty, due to its better bulk and dual STABs. Being U-turn bait is also awful and an inability to threaten the most common Fairy-types out beyond a Knock kinda sucks. Unlike Scrafty, it is less constrained to being a setup sweeper, and the ability to take advantage random drops is great but not something I would consider when teambuilding.
-Sableye is a mon I have not seen since January. While that doesn't automatically mean it sucks, a mon like it doesn't really have a reason to be run because its disruptive qualities are rarely needed in a bulky meta where most mons can handle being Wisped. Being crippled by TSpikes is also awful since it wants to keep coming in and out, and while its low physical bulky can be mitigated with Wisp, it cannot say the same for its special bulk. I feel it just requires too much support for too little to be any higher than C+.
-Sawk is always going to have some niche with Mold Breaker Earthquake (sucks if your Fighting resist isn’t Weezing) and a slightly faster speed tier than Passimian while having a bit more power, but Passimian’s better utility in U-turn generally puts it over the top. SturdyBoots is something I wish could be experimented with more, but again, I would rather use Pass 9/10 times.
-Silvally-Dark doesn't like that Dark is a much less spammable typing now. On paper, it should be great because a lack of many resists, but like Haunter, it struggles in practice due to competition (Fairy offensively, Steel defensively) and a solid amount of 4MSS. There isn’t really much else to say about it, it just doesn't like how most teams will always be going one of the other Silvallies over it.

C: ||

These are mons who either belong on niche playstyles but are highly effective ther (Ludicolo, Carbink, Thievul) or have the nichest of niches that somehow make them viable (Poliwrath, Stunfisk, Turtonator). There are also a few more drops from the B ranking.

-Coalossal will always have some form of viability because Rocks + Spin + Wisp is, quite honestly, pretty good role compression. But outside of this, why not use a better Rocker? I’ve already shilled about Gigalith a few times, but there’s also Regirock, Palossand, Sandaconda, Mesprit, even Kabutops and Rhydon. A 4x weakness to two extremely common typings in Water and Ground and the need to run Boots to actually do anything worsens its viability, and right now I can barely see it hanging on to a sliver of viability.
-Ditto succeeds best in metagames that have high amounts of specific hyper offense playstyles: these include Webs, weather, and setup spam. However, with Screens being the most common hyper offense playstyle and bulky setup sweepers such as Scrafty being common, Ditto isn’t really needed as much. As long as hyper offense is a thing Ditto will be viable, but right now it’s far too niche to be as high as it is.
-Silvally-Poison’s main niche was as a Virizion switchin that took little damage from Leaf Storm because of its solid overall bulk, as well as minimal damage from Zen Headbutt compared to the other Poisons. Without Virizion, Poison doesn't do much that other Poisons do better. Weezing has Wisp + Taunt and is a semi-Ground resist with Levitate, Garbodor has Spikes and Stomping Tantrum, Qwilfish tries to mix both of those qualities into a fast mon, and Golbat, while not used as a Poison in the traditional sense, has great bulk with Eviolite and can Defog away hazards, as well as be a surprisingly good stallbreaker. Silvally-Poison just doesn't do much to stand out from other Poisons or Silvallies.

UR:

These three should be unranked. While the case can be made that a niche exists, it is either one not needed or one it heavily underperforms in. Combusken already faces competition from Thwackey as an NFE sweeper, but even without Thwackey, it has a case of massive 4MSS because you always want Dual STABs/Knock/TPunch/SD/Tect, and even if you are special, you have no way to boost beyond Work Up or Specs, and even at +2 you get outspeed by most Weather sweeper, Scarf Toge and Rotom, as well as being hit hard by common priority in Mach Punch Hitmontop or NP Croak. Skuntank just kinda sucks. It’s a Poison that’s immune to Psychic, but also lacks the Fighting resist, the Fairy resist, and the U-turn resist. Combined with a lack of recovery and a lack of presence, it’s hard for it to warrant being on a team or actually do anything beyond Defog hazards away (but most of the popular Rockers already beat you). Finally, Wishiwashi just doesn't have a niche. What does it even do? I have seen teams try to make it work both offensively and defensively, and it either is almost always outclassed by a better option, or it’s not, but it makes no meaningful contribution. I implore people that know about these mons to try to defend, because I can’t really see why they should be here.



Finally, I would like to talk about council noms. I completely understand why they happen, but I find it unfair that a small group on people can not only approve noms, but put some of their own in a locked channel with no community feedback. It just seems weird to me that one mon can jump from C to B+, and another can go from B to C, all without community feedback. I feel like an easy fix for these would to make all council noms public before the voting starts for better transparency and community feedback.

Thanks for reading! Also sorry if this post looks unorganized and/or ugly, I'll try to touch it up later.

 

[ambipom unviable]

Hi, I generally don't make posts but this time I'll give it a go lol

C -> Unranked
Noctowl requires way too much team support to be justified, and even then, it performs the role of a wallbreaker very poorly. Base 70 speed is not impressive, it still gets outpaced by most competitors, and while this generally doesn't mean a death sentence, Noctowl is still rather weak, unlike other slow breakers, even with Tinted Lens making the unreliable Hurricane more spammable, Gigalith still walls this mon and there are other common checks such as Togedemaru, Guzzlord, and Aggron. Item choice is another huge issue, if you go with specs you get a mon that is slow, weak to rocks, and doesn't have a lot of defensive utility, while with boots and nasty plot it doesn't get a lot of opportunities to setup and is quite easy to pressure as long you are not using a super slow team. When you think about a special flying type wallbreaker, you are gonna choose Charizard, pretty much always.

C -> remain ranked
This mon is still a good option to have on the builder, it can check ground types (unlike Lanturn) and it can keep the momentum (unlike Jellicent) I just hate having to pick moves, rest talk gets walled by Toxicroak (also can be exploitable), and protect/eq has only lefties recovery, but it's worth to mention that scald + eq is good coverage, Wishiwashi is not that passive, even uninvested, and switches such as Whimsicott and Druddigon hate burns and u-turn leaves a mark on grass types, while also making you escape from unfavorable matchups like vs Jellicent.

There is probably more stuff from C rank that should be revisited and I would nominate Pyukumuku to get ranked if I had replays but I'll stop here.

Thanks for reading, I originally had planned to nominate more stuff months ago, but now most points are outdated.

 

[iceblazer]

a+ -> s agree
Gigalith is, to put it lightly, one of our best rockers, and maybe even our best. It’s super splashable due to its Sand-boosted SpDef, role compression as a rocker and special wall, and general lack of passivity. Giga fits on every play style I can think of; balance, BO, stall, offense, even sand itself… you get my point. Gigalith also pairs terrifically with other good mons, like Lisk, Tsar, Xatu, Zard, etc. Giga also has had a noticeable effect on the meta; Steels are becoming more common as they can avoid chip from Sand Stream, Fightings are becoming more or less staples in order to smash Giga, Aggron and Sandaconda are becoming more and more of a popular pick to take advantage of Giga, need I say more? If you need more information why Sand makes Giga so good, check Heracross2.0’s post above. Seriously, he put it in much better words than I can ever hope for. There’s a good reason why the rock has jumped up to being the 4th used mon in PU.

a+ -> s agree
If Gigalith can be considered the premier wall of PU, then it wouldn’t be too farfetched to label Pass as the premier Scarfer of the tier. Passimian is very hard to switch into in a Talon-less meta without bulky Grounds such as Palossand (which has been declining as of lately), Flyings (most of which are smashed by CC due to their additional typings), and Fairies (Whims cannot take any chip or else it’s pummeled by CC and Tisse and Fairyvally fear Gunk Shot). Hell, Pass is largely the reason why Garb has been getting traction as of lately, being a Poison that can punish monki flip and all. I would even argue that Rocky Helmet is downright necessary to include on teams just to prevent Pass from spamming U-turning for no cost.

a- -> a agree
You could make an argument for this to rise to A+, but hey, baby steps first. Eggy is downright insane atm due to how good it abuses fatter cores consisting of either Conda/Giga/Lanturn and its crazy strong breaking power; chances are if you don’t have a sturdy Dragon or Grass resist, Eggy will be dropping Dracos or Leaf Storms with impunity. TR is very hard to stop once Eggy sets it up, usually requiring a sack or something taking heavy damage in order to switch in or kill it, and Specs is either OHKOing stuff left and right or heavily chunking mons. And either way, Exeggutor is rarely deadweight in a match, as the holes it punches in enemy teams are big enough to let another sweeper such as NP/SD Croak or Steelvally clean up lategame.

a -> b disagree

I’m of the opinion that Tisse hasn’t gotten much worse as of lately; it’s more or less the same. Unlike other passive clerics such as Audino and Miltank, Aromatisse has a spammable STAB in the form of Moonblast. A lot of teams that lack Fairy resists tend to struggle with repeatedly switching into Tisse due to PU’s lack of bulky Fairy resists and the pink blob’s decent SpAtk for a wall. Also, even uninvested Moonblast still chunks Toxicroak other offensive mons for a good amount of damage. While it definitely falters in matchups against Steelvally, Aggron, and SpDef Toge and is total Knock bait, I don’t think these are problems just limited to Aromatisse.

a- -> b+ agree
Lanturn, on the other hand is a cleric that I agree on dropping. On paper, Lanturn should be an excellent glue mon, with a Water & Fire resistance, a Volt Switch blocker, a cleric, and a slow pivot all in one. However, I’ve found it to be rather disappointing during my time with it. It suffers from a slight case of 4MSS, as you want Toxic in order to not be passive, Heal Bell to act as a cleric, Gleam so that you’re not total Guzz bait, etc. It doesn’t perform its role as a ‘catch-all Elec resist’ as well as I hoped to, as most Electrics either have coverage to bop it or are just able to cripple or chunk it well enough to limit its role (see: Helio & Toge) for the rest of the match. It’s also the very definition of a momentum sink, it felt as if I were already two steps behind my opponent unless I was clicking either Toxic or Volt Switch. Not to mention that it brings in all kinds of threats such as Croak and Heliolisk and the best you can do is Volt Switch on them on the switch. So yeah, now’s not the best meta for Lanturn.

(small) a- -> b+ agree

All three of these mons have either been having a rough time during this state of the meta or were generally overrated. I’ve never agreed with Gourgeist’s placement and I’ve felt that it’s a product of the Poltergeist hype train everyone was riding on a month ago. It’s got a good offensive typing, but Grass/Ghost leaves Geist massively weak to the now common Charizard, offensive Darks such as Absol, Scrafty and Guzzlord, and other Ghosts such as Froslass, Ghostvally and even Scarf Haunter. Missing out on the base 100 speed mark sucks for it, as it’s prone to being revenge killed by Archeops Scyther and the like. I’ve heard good things about other sets Ike SubSeed, but that isn’t enough to keep it up in A-.

Rotom hasn’t gotten any worse, but B+ fits it better. Scarf sets have fallen out of favor following Oma’s ban, NP sets are too frail and weak to really make it work, and bulky Defog sets are either stuck with Pain Split or have no recovery at all if it chooses to run Wisp over Split.

Vika is just not having a good time. Fire bait, being unable to run a boosting item, and facing competition from Bee for a slot have all been Vika’s main issues, but they’ve been exacerbated as of lately. Vika also has a mild case of 4MSS; if you don’t run Sticky Web, you can’t really justify Vikavolt over Ribombee. If you don’t run Energy Ball, you’re walked to hell and back by Lanturn and Gigalith, and if you don’t choose Roost, that means no reliable recovery for you. You could make an argument that it has a niche on Webs/Screens with Agility, but at that point, why not run Bee at that point?

Now, here’s one of my noms for y’all:

b+ -> a-

Reeeally good spinner rn. With the loss of Talon, Tsareena has less difficulties spinning and an easier time spamming Power Whip with all the Grounds and Rocks running around in the meta. Despite its middling speed and poor defensive typing, Tsareena is fairly easy to fit on teams due to its resistances to Ground & Water and how it synergies well with other common mons, such as forming a VoltTurn core with Heliolisk and acting as a nice defensive partner with the aforementioned Giga and other rockers. Its checks don’t like taking a Knock to the face, like Zard and Weezing for example. Tsar also has a good amount of untapped potential too; I’ve been smacked by Band on the ladder a few times, and Scarf looks like a fine way of speed control.

Whew, this has turned out to be much longer (for a mobile user) than I’d expected. There’s still quite a lot I want to give input on, so I’ll just make a list of noms that I agree with:

a -> a+

b+ -> a

b+ -> a-

b+ -> a

b -> b+

a -> a-

b+ -> b-

b+ -> b

b -> shadow realm

b -> b+

b+ -> lower

a+ -> a/a-

b+ -> a-

c -> ur

 

[2xTheTap]

Hi all! Council voted on your recent VR nominations over the weekend. Per usual, we provided some of our own noms too (marked with *). Here are the results:

NEW MON PLACEMENT
B
to B
to B

C
to C

UR
to UR

DROPS
A
A+ to A
A+ to A
A to A-

B
A to B+
A to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B
B+ to B
B+ to B
B+ to B
B+ to B-

C
B to C
B- to C
B- to C
B- to C
B- to C
B- to C

UR
B to UR
C to UR

RISES
S
A+ to S
A+ to S

A
* A to A+
A to A+
A- to A+
* (Ghost) A- to A
B+ to A
B+ to A
B+ to A-
B+ to A-

B
B to B+
* B to B+
B- to B
B- to B
* C to B-

C
UR to C

There were some meta trends from last time that carried over into this update; for example, fitting your Ghost resist in this meta is still pretty difficult, and as such, offensive Ghost-types like Silvally-Ghost and Trevenant were given the bumps that they deserved. This didn't apply to Rotom though, as one of Rotom's niches in checking +2 Omastar via a Choice Scarf set no longer applies given Omastar's recent ban, and so A- is no longer indicative of its ability to fit on teams with that incentive for using it being gone. We also voted against dropping Cofagrigus, as most of us on council still feel that it's a potent threat that's able to open up holes in other teams fairly easily with that combination of Body Press and Shadow Ball, especially given that the hardier Ghost resists that actually fit on teams, basically Guzzlord, Miltank, and Scrafty, all take pretty big damage from Cofagrigus' Body Press.

Initially, I expected offensive Water-types like Kabutops and Basculin to fill the voids left by Omastar, Kingler, and Clawitzer (at least to some extent), but their sweeping potential and power out the gate don't really compare to the point that Basculin's rank stayed static and Kabutops' even dropped, perhaps as a result of Toxicroak being incredibly common. Not to say that Basculin and Kabutops are not worthwhile additions to offensive teams by any means, as the ability to RKO big threats like DD Charizard with STAB / Adaptability Aqua Jet gives Basculin a reason to be added to teams, while Kabutops behind screens set up by Xatu can be really difficult to deal with. But, for Kabutops to provide teams with utility, it basically struggles to fit coverage outside its dual STAB moves, leaving it vulnerable to Toxicroak. I do think that Arctovish's rank could go up in the near future, as bulky Water resists are falling off (Jellicent and Lanturn especially) as an indirect result of Exeggutor-Alola's presence in the meta. Basically, I would parse out offensive Water-types in this order of effectiveness: Arctovish (A-), Basculin (B+), Kabutops (B), but I was outvoted in ranking Arctovish and Basculin higher. It could be because locking into Water coverage is not free, as doing so opens up your team to be blasted back by Exeggutor-Alola.

Along this line of thought, you may have noticed that many Pokemon used to check offensive pivots like Passimian and Archeops have dropped in viability: Regirock in Archeops' case, and Fighting resists like Palossand, Weezing, and Jellicent in Passimian's case. This comes as a result of how easy it is to bring in potent wallbreakers like Specs Exeggutor-Alola and CB Aggron in after U-turn, as most of Archeops' and Passimian's counters are liable to be outsped and OHKOed after Archeops and Passimian have forced switches. Jellicent in particular is in a rough state, as termi noted above. To add onto her post, as a Fire check, Jellicent more or less fails to check bulky Charizard packing Toxic / Mystical Fire / Roost, as this set puts up enough pressure against Jellicent and forces it out eventually. Similarly, Specs Magmortar scores the 2HKO against physically defensive Jellicent via Thunderbolt, which is the variant of Jellicent that should be used in the context of allowing it to be an effective answer to Passimian. However, if you do opt for physically defensive Jellicent, you're now building with a Pokemon that lets in NP Toxicroak for free, which isn't ideal either.

With Charizard's ascension to S rank, you'd think that bulky Water-types like Lanturn would rise in turn, but that isn't necessarily the case here. The majority of council voted for Lanturn to drop, as it is more or less a Pokemon that over-promises in what it can handle defensively - as a Fire check, it is heavily damaged by EQ and Scorching Sands from Charizard and Magmortar (or Power Whip from Centiskorch); as a Flying check, it loses to Archeops and takes big chip from Scyther's U-turn; as an Electric check, it doesn't enjoy taking repeated U-turns or Toxic from Togedemaru, Energy Ball from Vikavolt and Galvantula, or Hyper Voice from Specs / Boots Heliolisk; and, as an Ice resist, it doesn't really take on any of these, with Sneasel's SD or CB Knock Off doing a lot and cutting off Lanturn's primary means of recovery, offensive Sandslash-Alola often packing EQ and doing roughly 60% to the bulky pivot set, and Frosmoth walling anything Lanturn can do, so setup via QD is very easy, etc. Lanturn's myriad of resists and access to both Heal Bell and a slow Volt Switch may look nice on paper, but between the notion that it has a hard time checking the aforementioned threats in practice and how easily it lets in wallbreakers like Exeggutor-Alola, A- was definitely overstating how effective Lanturn actually is.

There was a bit more here to comment on; many of the changes in this update came as a result of Pokemon being outclassed by others sharing their typing; for example, Weezing dropped while Garbodor rose, Sawk dropped while Passimian rose, Uxie dropped while Xatu rose (it's important to remember that Magic Bounce bounces back Defog and therefore preserves your team's Light Screen / Reflect when you bring Xatu in on Defog, which is something Uxie can't do), and so on. Overall, council is now shifting our focus to more accurately ranking the bottom half of the VR; do you have any changes you'd like to see happen? Do you think C should be divied up into subranks like A and B are? Let us know below!

 

[Skankovich]

> B-/C

Surprising to me that this isn't ranked! I think this is a really legit choice for spikestack or voltturn teams. This is what I've been running:

Morpeko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Hunger Switch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Parting Shot
- Protect
- Taunt / Volt Switch

Aura Wheel + Parting Shot is such an annoying combination. It's basically a 110bp dark/electric U-turn, because nothing that switches into an Aura Wheel (which will always be dark type at first, unless coming in after a mon has died) will outspeed when you're at +1, leaving you free to pivot out into an appropriate check after having chunked it. This gives Morpeko real use mid-game in wearing down its own answers to prepare for late-game cleaning, which it's as potent at as ever. The last slot is pretty open, Taunt lets you take advantage of random passive stuff like Ferroseed or Audino or block a Jelli or Weezing wisp, while Volt Switch lets you get some chip if you don't need the Parting Shot drops and also lets you pivot out of Clear Body Regirock, or Passimian without giving it a Defiant boost.

The downsides are that it's just a little bit weaker than you'd like, as it needs boots to pivot freely around, but I definitely think this is legitimately viable. It's a real nuisance to most offensive teams with just a little spike support.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1344058948
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1343581446

> just like higher than C please lol

Y'all bout to be real mad at me, but it must be said. This is literally Aggron but with a Steel type Head Smash. Like these mons do the same thing.

Perrserker @ Choice Band
Ability: Steely Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Tail
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Close Combat

Steely Spirit Iron Tail is 150bp @ 75% accuracy with a 30% def drop and 24pp. Head Smash is 150bp @ 80% accuracy and 8pp. Aggron and Perrserker have the same attack stat so these moves hit exactly as hard as each other, meaning similarly Perrserker just blows past resists:

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 220-259 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(notably this means even if zard roosts as you switch into a check, it will not be able to switch into another Iron Tail)

252+ Atk Choice Band Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togedemaru: 130-153 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Steely Spirit Perrserker Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Steel: 186-220 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You get it, it's a nuke. The rest of it is basically the same as Aggron too - they have the exact same stats outside of defense. So where do they differ?

1. Nuke typing
Aggron gets its Head Smash eaten up by Palo and Sandaconda while Perrserker gets Iron Tail ate up by Lanturn and wish Toge sets. Aggron gets Aqua Tail for Sandaconda but is pretty much hardwalled by Palo, while Perrserker can 2hko/1hko its checks respectively with Close Combat. Even hard niche answers like Pyukumuku can be screwed over by an Iron Tail defense drop.

I think it's worth saying that Iron Head gives Perrserker a reliable, slightly less strong nuke option. It's nice because you can tear through the key resist with Iron Tail and then just click Iron Head the rest of the match without worrying about missing, while Aggron only has to always rely on Head Smash for power.

2. Switchin opportunities
Both mons can get in on fairy types pretty easily. Aggron has much higher phys bulk, but its 4x weakness to EQ and Fighting limits how usable this is practically - for example, Perrserker lives an Archeops EQ while Aggron drops to it. However, Aggron does find it much easier to come in on neutral physical attackers like Togedemaru, Silv-Ghost, the Poltergeist users etc. Perrserker meanwhile has a handy grass resist, and while it's not switching into an Eggy-A Leaf Storm any time soon it's a solid whims and non-HJK tsareena check.

Like honestly, in practice as well as theory these mons really don't differ very much at all. I'd just pick between them based on whether your team more effectively pressures the fat grounds or Lanturn. I don't expect Perrserker to go anywhere near A because it isn't currently the force in the meta that Aggron is, and ultimately the VR is a reflection of the meta, but it most definitely deserves to go up and get more usage.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1337901685-z63c1p6wugoz4x0414k57hnowoqsaqipw - breaks a Stunfisk-G with Iron Tail and then just Iron Heads through the rest of the team

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1337954214 - blows past a Jellicent and Ferroseed with Iron Tail (admittedly a crit helped out the latter)

 

[Expulso]

I just wanted to share a set for Druddigon I've been using to gain mild success in pokemon showdown.
Druddigon is really good the only hard checks that I've encountered so far are Silvally Fairy, Silvally Steel, and Aromatisse. Anyway Here's the set,
Druddigon @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail
- Crunch
- Dual Wingbeat

You may be saying this set looks like feces, but wait Druddigons base attack stat of 120 combined with Sheer Force plus Choice Band makes it hit like a truck. If you don't resist or are immune to outrage you get evaporated. Of course, Silvally is a problem but it comes down to team support to knock them out for you Druddigon to sweep. Tell me what you think of my Druddigon, If you want to see my whole team the link is here https://pokepast.es/d843ecbbaa49382f

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1345179597
^Druddigon Replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1345182798
^ Another Druddigon Replay

Hello, I also think Druddigon is a really cool mon, especially offensive sets with Sheer Force like you mention here. However, I'd consider running Fire Punch and Gunk Shot as coverage; they both get a boost in power from Sheer Force, and this coverage lets u hit the Fairies (Aromatisse, Whimsicott, and Ribombee) and most Steels in the tier. I'd recommend running Earthquake or Superpower as your fourth move to hit the Steel-types that take neutral damage from Fire Punch (such as Aggron). Finally, Life Orb is better than CB on this set imo; with coverage this good, you really value the ability to switch moves.

(this probably shouldnt be in the VR thread but oops -- enjoy the feedback)

 

[Gamer1234556]

Is there a reason why Sableye and Spiritomb aren't ranked? I am just curious.