Metagame Max Berries: A Genetically Modified Metagame

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Gone may be Bug Bite/Pluck/Knock Off, but this makes me think that Incinerate will be used more, as it gets rid of berries. Same goes for Haze and Clear Smog as they get rid of stat changes.

Also, I'm thinking Kee/Maranga will be used more, as even if they get burnt up by Incinerate, they won't be stolen.

Speaking of Kee Berries, I have a set lol

:ss/clefable:

Clefable (M) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Incinerate

Here's a mon that really likes Bug Bite and Pluck being gone. It switches into physical moves to activate Kee Berry, sets up endless Calm Minds, recovers health whenever it wants to, and sweeps with Stored Power. It also uses Incinerate to stop counter setup.
I know this is similar to the maranga Corviknight set I posted shut up
 
While playing Alpha Sapphire yesterday, I discovered that Sticky Hold prevents Incinerate from destroying berries. Is this still the case in Gen 8?
Indeed it is. Incinerate cannot burn a berry held by a mon with Sticky Hold. I believe the only way it can is for the user of Incinerate to have either Neutralizing Gas or Mold Breaker as their ability.

Quickban Update #2: Spectrier, Knock Off, Bug Bite, and Pluck
:ss/Spectrier::ss/Scizor::ss/Zapdos-Galar:
Following our last watchlist post and other posts in this thread/community opinions, the council has decided to ban Spectrier, Knock Off, Bug Bite, and Pluck from Max Berries. While this will be a big change to the common strategies that are currently being ran on the ladder, we are hoping this will stimulate a more healthy metagame. While Incinerate is another berry removing move, it was decided to not be metagame defining as the other options, nor a strong enough option to warrant a ban. As this metagame shift will be rather large, we do not have an exact watchlist for future bans, but we will surely keep a close eye out and keep you all updated! Thanks!

Tagging Kris to implement.
As the main person who has been posting about these issues you've mentioned here, I wanted to say thank you. This seriously opens up the metagame COMPLETELY and not just with berries, cause lets be real here, Knock Off is one of the best moves in the game - and now it's gone! I totally respect the ban of Bug Bite/Pluck because they too were very potent and also too centralising. Glad Spectrier is gone, let's see how Cinderace goes for a bit and see if it's used less or needs banning - I'm thinking it will be used less though (wishful thinking).

Immediate changes I can see:

Kee / Maranga Berry: This will be everywhere, say hello to all the Unaware and Haze users!

Corviknight: No more Pluck, so no longer the main mon to use, but Unnerve is still pretty nice.

Unnerve: All users will see more usage now.

Corrosive Gas: I recommend this highly now that Knock Off is gone.

Trick / Switcheroo: A very potent way of shutting mons down and you can potentially use it multiple times too.

:)
 
Gone may be Bug Bite/Pluck/Knock Off, but this makes me think that Incinerate will be used more, as it gets rid of berries. Same goes for Haze and Clear Smog as they get rid of stat changes.

Also, I'm thinking Kee/Maranga will be used more, as even if they get burnt up by Incinerate, they won't be stolen.

Speaking of Kee Berries, I have a set lol

:ss/clefable:

Clefable (M) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Incinerate

Here's a mon that really likes Bug Bite and Pluck being gone. It switches into physical moves to activate Kee Berry, sets up endless Calm Minds, recovers health whenever it wants to, and sweeps with Stored Power. It also uses Incinerate to stop counter setup.
I know this is similar to the maranga Corviknight set I posted shut up
agreed. incinerate has a crazy distribution, like mandibuzz?torn t? dragonite? ttar? even heatran joins the removal parade.lots of assault vests flying around, and without something like occa or ff heatran, its way outta hand. trick isnt too detramental as far as ive seen, but... haze is op af. i mean the only good abuser is pex, but... ITS FREAKING TOXAPEX! i think toxapex has become way too obnoxious and deserves a ban. cinderace is good, but not banworthy yet. maybe soon.
 
agreed. incinerate has a crazy distribution, like mandibuzz?torn t? dragonite? ttar? even heatran joins the removal parade.lots of assault vests flying around, and without something like occa or ff heatran, its way outta hand. trick isnt too detramental as far as ive seen, but... haze is op af. i mean the only good abuser is pex, but... ITS FREAKING TOXAPEX! I think toxapex has become way too obnoxious and deserves a ban. cinderace is good, but not banworthy yet. maybe soon.
my thoughts
I believe that pex is fine but cinderace definitely has to go. It has like zero switch-ins and u-turn makes it impossible even with switch-ins. You could get rocks up but they are usually boots and if they are banded, they usually put insane holes in your team before they go down and then easily let their teammate come in and clean up. It's honestly appalling. The only archetype where cinderace doesn't do that much against is Offense that's more on the HO side, and even then it has sucker punch to rk. Its extremely hard to prepare for in teambuilder and you often find yourself running 2,3, or even 4 mons to try and suppress cinderace against your team.
Yeah pex is annoying, but it can be overwhelmed by a pretty good amount of set-up sweepers, like zarude, or Jirachi. And it sucks to basically every good breaker rn. I'm guessing your running offense so race doesn't seem OP to you, but lemme tell you, it's insane.
Also, I know a lot of people have talked about this, but even with the bans, they still feel quite underwhelming. People usually run so many anti-berry things, that you start to wonder if berries are even worth running. A *possible* fix to this, is to to ban incinerate, and ban the use of more than 3 non-berry items. I know it seems drastic, but this would mean that people will actually run berries wich is the literal purpose of this meta, and would also mean that teams will find an even balance between the items. removing incenerate would mean that people can use berries more freely without fear of this widely-spread move. You may say that berry boosters would get out of hand, but haze, unaware, sturdy, faster mons, and tspikes for endurers, still exist.

TL/DR: Ban race, limit non-berry, ban incenearte
 
my thoughts
I believe that pex is fine but cinderace definitely has to go. It has like zero switch-ins and u-turn makes it impossible even with switch-ins. You could get rocks up but they are usually boots and if they are banded, they usually put insane holes in your team before they go down and then easily let their teammate come in and clean up. It's honestly appalling. The only archetype where cinderace doesn't do that much against is Offense that's more on the HO side, and even then it has sucker punch to rk. Its extremely hard to prepare for in teambuilder and you often find yourself running 2,3, or even 4 mons to try and suppress cinderace against your team.
Yeah pex is annoying, but it can be overwhelmed by a pretty good amount of set-up sweepers, like zarude, or Jirachi. And it sucks to basically every good breaker rn. I'm guessing your running offense so race doesn't seem OP to you, but lemme tell you, it's insane.
Also, I know a lot of people have talked about this, but even with the bans, they still feel quite underwhelming. People usually run so many anti-berry things, that you start to wonder if berries are even worth running. A *possible* fix to this, is to to ban incinerate, and ban the use of more than 3 non-berry items. I know it seems drastic, but this would mean that people will actually run berries wich is the literal purpose of this meta, and would also mean that teams will find an even balance between the items. removing incenerate would mean that people can use berries more freely without fear of this widely-spread move. You may say that berry boosters would get out of hand, but haze, unaware, sturdy, faster mons, and tspikes for endurers, still exist.

TL/DR: Ban race, limit non-berry, ban incenearte
A day into the new bans, it's the same story if not more so. Generic Sand teams or standard OU mons being used all the time - and what's worse is that all these mons tend to handle berry users very well and destroys strats. Unless we do something like what you've suggested, the metagame will be nothing more than a slightly more interesting OU.

Endure is way too easily broken through and as they are all a one-time use item, a healing berry only bides time (like one turn most of the time). Kee / Maranga are looking to be the favourites and even they can be hazed or phased away with ease.

The concept of the meta is great, but even with further bans and adjustments I just don't see it being one I will enjoy as I usually turn to OM's so that I can play something different to OU. So in my opinion, I just don't see the enjoyment of it unless drastic changes are made that involve removing some of the easy counters to the berries.

(Remember this is all just my opinion formed from my own experiences of the meta, it's all subjective)

:)
 
Would banning all hold items except berries be too much? Would at least force people to use the gimmick of the OM. :D
 
A day into the new bans, it's the same story if not more so. Generic Sand teams or standard OU mons being used all the time - and what's worse is that all these mons tend to handle berry users very well and destroys strats. Unless we do something like what you've suggested, the metagame will be nothing more than a slightly more interesting OU.

Endure is way too easily broken through and as they are all a one-time use item, a healing berry only bides time (like one turn most of the time). Kee / Maranga are looking to be the favourites and even they can be hazed or phased away with ease.

The concept of the meta is great, but even with further bans and adjustments I just don't see it being one I will enjoy as I usually turn to OM's so that I can play something different to OU. So in my opinion, I just don't see the enjoyment of it unless drastic changes are made that involve removing some of the easy counters to the berries.

(Remember this is all just my opinion formed from my own experiences of the meta, it's all subjective)

:)
first, i agree with haze. it just destroys berries. second, generic sand teams? i think we should ban sand stream. hail is fine imo because i never see it viable, and it really deserves a time to shine. its also more berry friendly than not, as alolan sandslash can be MEAN with liechi. tspikes are also up for consideration. i really hate pex personally, and it has become unhealthy for the meta. every team and their dog has it, just to counter berries, which are really fun. also voolpool, i found how broken cinderace can be, and i totally agree it needs a ban. and incinerate too. i think theif is good, but not insane. but tapu lele and weavile becone insane. why does t lele even get thief? trick is ok in the sense that you just take away berries, because it isnt item removal. clef is a bit out of hand with it, however. also why is starf banned? WHY? also: i think we should do something like this: berries that heal status should fully restore hp as well. lum should set up safeguard. custap should give +10 priority to a move. i think that status heal berries getting a buff shuts down tspikes and mostly stall in general. plus, lum shedinja. i really like the idea of 3 berries per team, and... we should make a new berry that is basically rapid spin. also make a berry that is basically haze. i think that custom berries will make the meta seem more unique!
 
first, i agree with haze. it just destroys berries. second, generic sand teams? i think we should ban sand stream. hail is fine imo because i never see it viable, and it really deserves a time to shine. its also more berry friendly than not, as alolan sandslash can be MEAN with liechi. tspikes are also up for consideration. i really hate pex personally, and it has become unhealthy for the meta. every team and their dog has it, just to counter berries, which are really fun. also voolpool, i found how broken cinderace can be, and i totally agree it needs a ban. and incinerate too. i think theif is good, but not insane. but tapu lele and weavile becone insane. why does t lele even get thief? trick is ok in the sense that you just take away berries, because it isnt item removal. clef is a bit out of hand with it, however. also why is starf banned? WHY? also: i think we should do something like this: berries that heal status should fully restore hp as well. lum should set up safeguard. custap should give +10 priority to a move. i think that status heal berries getting a buff shuts down tspikes and mostly stall in general. plus, lum shedinja. i really like the idea of 3 berries per team, and... we should make a new berry that is basically rapid spin. also make a berry that is basically haze. i think that custom berries will make the meta seem more unique!
Making a new berry would be making this into a pet mod. Things that create completely custom things that are subjective are considered pet mods. This is an OM so we couldn't really do that. Edit: Custap makes user first in their priority bracket, so nothing would change if it was maxed out. Starf is banned for good reason as it lets people get free plus 4 in stats and recycle for infinite boosts to where they have max stats.
 
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first, i agree with haze. it just destroys berries. second, generic sand teams? i think we should ban sand stream. hail is fine imo because i never see it viable, and it really deserves a time to shine. its also more berry friendly than not, as alolan sandslash can be MEAN with liechi. tspikes are also up for consideration. i really hate pex personally, and it has become unhealthy for the meta. every team and their dog has it, just to counter berries, which are really fun. also voolpool, i found how broken cinderace can be, and i totally agree it needs a ban. and incinerate too. i think theif is good, but not insane. but tapu lele and weavile becone insane. why does t lele even get thief? trick is ok in the sense that you just take away berries, because it isnt item removal. clef is a bit out of hand with it, however. also why is starf banned? WHY? also: i think we should do something like this: berries that heal status should fully restore hp as well. lum should set up safeguard. custap should give +10 priority to a move. i think that status heal berries getting a buff shuts down tspikes and mostly stall in general. plus, lum shedinja. i really like the idea of 3 berries per team, and... we should make a new berry that is basically rapid spin. also make a berry that is basically haze. i think that custom berries will make the meta seem more unique!
So I'll go through some of your ideas and add some of my own:

Sand Stream: Weather in general is OP but with Sand and Hail in this meta is great, you can ruin Endure mons instantly. But the issue I am having with the ones I come across is they are just not utilising berries. It's just normal sets that you'd usually see in a regular OU match. Is Sand Stream banworthy? I don't think so, but it's part of the issue in regards to an easy counter to berry strats.

Hail: Snow Warning is rarely used, but it can still be an issue. It's so rarely used because in reality, Sand outclasses Hail every time (besides Aurora Veil). Sand-Rush users are just more powerful, faster and better typings and the Sand setters follow the same kind of story.

Toxapex: T-Spikes are not banworthy imo, but once again, they are another popular counter for berry users, which is for me the main issue with the meta currently. Toxapex however is a little more of an issue to me. I don't think it needs a ban, but only if bans on Incinerate or Unnerve (or something) are implemented. Toxapex won't be as much of a problem at all if Haze was banned ... (just another ban example).

Incinerate: I actually thought that it was a great idea keeping this move in the meta, but in reality, it's yet ANOTHER great and easily accessible counter to berry strats. Another reason why few people are choosing to use berries in their teams. Banworthy? Potentially, but depends on other bans and edits.

Cinderace: In the current meta, as it's so similar to OU atm, Cinderace is having a great time! But I agree, it really should be banned. However, if there are further bans on counters to berries, theirs potential that Cinderace may not be as threatening / used (but I don't see a world where this mon isn't banworthy tbh).

Tapu Lele: If anything is OP with this mon, it's Psychic Surge - the ability to stop priority moves to help your Endure mons out. So I really don't want to see one of the only viable ways of ensuring your Endure mon will at least hit once (depending on weather) be removed from the game.

Clefable: Okay, so, Clef absolutely THRIVES in this meta almost as much as Magearna did. It has so many options for removing berries and ruining strats and is insanely difficult to predict imo. Unaware is just mean and it can be very difficult to take down. If any other bans are going to happen regarding counters to berry strats, then Clef will be the biggest problem afterwards and most likely will be banned too. But atm, as much as it is used and as versatile as it is, it's somewhat needed in the meta currently.

Berry Boosts: So as VoolPool said, adding knew berries to the game won't be happening, but I love the Custap idea! And I think if we wanna see the meta really shine, adding certain extra boosts to the other berries would be a great addition. Perhaps like you say, a Defog mechanic added to the activation of status berries could be interesting. Or for a Pecha Berry, it could heal poison status and remove toxic spikes from the field? Just throwing some ideas out...

Now hear me out:

What if the mechanic of the berry was at full HP only, you have an automatic Focus Sash effect if your mon is holding a berry and is hit by a move that will normally KO you? (for 25% HP berries)

No more Endure usage and it may make berries more appealing to use? Hazards will be an enormous counter strat, but there are effective ways of dealing with that. Sand and Hail will be a big deal too. Counters will still be an issue, but at least you don't have to predict with Endure anymore and waste a turn. I don't know, was just an idea :)


Making a new berry would be making this into a pet mod. Things that create completely custom things that are subjective are considered pet mods. This is an OM so we couldn't really do that. But I do agree with +10 priority custap. Starf is banned for good reason as it lets people get free plus 4 in stats and recycle for infinite boosts to where they have max stats.
So I understand why the Starf berry can be too overpowered, but in this current meta where you can barely activate a berry successfully let alone recycle it and keep those stat changes with the amount of counters going around, as well as forcing your mon to be below 25% health in order to get the effect anyway and having to use a turn to heal.... *breaths* the Starf berry doesn't seem to be banworthy to me.
However if more changes are added, the berry would become OP, so it should remain banned imo.
 
i love it! i think that aspear should be haze, cheri = bye to spikes, persim = reset negative stats, pecha is no tspikes, rawst is no rocks, chesto is trick, and lum is safeguard. im out of ideas, but i think we should do things with the "useless in battle" berries too!
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just going to address something before it gets too out of hand: we will not be changing the basis of the format in any way; we're not adding new effects to berries, changing the effects of existing berries, or adding any clauses to restrict non-berry items. These changes would be subjective and turn the metagame into a Pet Mod or too restrictive. Please do not continue with any further discussion on this topic.

It would be beneficial to the thread and the metagame if posts focused on the actual metagame at hand. We'll keep you all updated with any new bans as we decide on things, thank you!
 

berry

what kind
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Good evening. "Max Berries" was a month-long sociological study conducted by Harvard University. We are now complete with our study. Thank you for your time.

All jokes aside, being that Max Berries' OMOTM cycle is almost done, In The Hills and I have decided that we will be shelving this project when the month is over. Unfortunately, while the meta seemed extremely interesting on paper, there simply wasn't enough depth provided by the catalog of berries available to users. The meta unfortunately became very overcentralized and subsequently, very stale, and we believe this is simply a result of the idea holding a lot less depth than we originally thought.

We openly invite someone to revive this idea as a pet mod that edits all consumables, not limited to berries. We believe that although this change would not have fit in with our "Max Berries" idea, we don't want to close the door on a "Max Items" pet mod that has the potential to be expanded much more.

Thanks for giving our OM a shot- we appreciate it! We hope you had fun with this month, and we hope a better idea can stem from something like this in the future!
 
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in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Thank you all for the support the past month with the OMotM! Unfortunately, like berry mentioned, we will be shelving this metagame due to the concept not allowing for an interesting metagame. We thank you all for playing, and hope you all enjoyed your time with it.

Thank you to berry for hosting this metagame and a huge thanks to Kris for coding it for us, sorry that it ultimately did not work out.
 
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