Feminism

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Wstfgl

It seems to me that in Australia at least there seems to be a growing tide of feminism.


For instance, the Equal Opportunity Committee's current head is well-known as a feminist; a few months ago, she was heavily criticized for ruling that a very old and established men's club (the Weld Club) must be allowed to accommodate females as well but neglecting to enforce similar restrictions vice-versa.

Julia Gillard, the deputy prime minister post-2007-election, is the first female deputy prime minister. The media made a fair bit of hubbub about it.

More recently, females significantly outperformed males in all TEE subjects - I think TEE is our equivalent of SATs or something, the score derived from these examinations are used to determine university entry - based on the respective genders' average scores (although the most prestigious awards based on scoring were awarded to males). This is particularly odd since this is a dramatic swing from last year, so it's hard to tell if this is a statistical anomaly or the start of a trend.

Thus the West Australian state government is considering segregating all males and females in state schools, or at least in subjects where one gender noticeably outperforms the other. The media reacted by insinuating that all girls are intellectually superior to boys, which is ludicrous.

Given that I don't know of a single other country where there is such a ridiculous imbalance in favour of females, and indeed, in Asian countries it appears that the reverse is evident and that males outperform females. This leads me to believe that perhaps Australian culture encourages males to be academically substandard. The country was founded on the backs of convicts (who are still lauded today) and soldiers; combined with an incredible emphasis on sports, which I have not seen elsewhere, definitely seems to contribute to an anti-intellectual spirit, which is further demonstrated through the Australian "natural" opposition to the rich and successful (tall poppy syndrome).

Although not scientifically valid, I note that in my school year, the strongest-performing students included females but dominantly males that hail from non-Australian cultures. Unsurprisingly, the students that best identified with Australian culture performed poorly academically and very well in their sporting endeavors.

Possibly this increased variance in the ability of males results in the skewing of results towards females because the measures don't include outliers (the very top and bottom of the scale). Can't know for sure.


I'm curious to know if this feminism is unique to Australia or if it's equally strong in other countries, share your thoughts on this disbalance between females and males academically.
 
Feminism is going to be strong as long as society implies weakness and frailty of women, both intellectually and physically. The former has clearly been shown as not true in the United States (many more women in universities and colleges, for instance). The latter is true more often than it is not true, so it is probably less important to this discussion, but it is still an important point to bring up probably! Anyway, the fact that women are looked at still by so many people as unable to make critical decisions or have leadership skills or be as good at math or science as men, as well as the overall monetary gap between the two genders, is why feminism is still a fairly strong force in the United States. It is less strong a movement than it was in the early 1900s when they were fighting to get voting rights or in the 60s and 70s movement, but it is still present certainly.
 
this is a thread that will probably piss me off. but anyhow, I'm somewhat strongly feminist to the point I actually agree with valerie solanas and berate myself daily for having a boyfriend.

this is probably because I've experienced the full spectrum of male unpleasantness, but hey..
 
I don't see the point of feminists in the U.S. Yes, perhaps men are seen as physically superior, but there are positive and negative stereotypes for both genders. I don't think there is really much difference in the sexes anymore (no, I don't mean it like that >_>).
 
akuchi said:
this is a thread that will probably piss me off. but anyhow, I'm somewhat strongly feminist to the point I actually agree with valerie solanas and berate myself daily for having a boyfriend.

this is probably because I've experienced the full spectrum of male unpleasantness, but hey..
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Maybe because you haven't spent a few hours in an IM window with me? I'm very pleasant (when my emotions are in control). I've gotten girls who hated guys smile and girls who wanted to go lesbian give guys another chance. Not all of us are bad, and some may even change your views.
 
This could be totally wrong, but I heard that Australia is notorious for domestic violence/treating women like shit. That could have something to do with the backlash if true.
 
Feminists do not want to be treated equally. They wish to be superior to men. They blame men for the world's problems, and most of them just sit on their asses complaining all day. Note the word most. That does not mean all are like that, but most are. The ones that actually want just equal rights are decent enough. I mean who does not want equal rights? (Besides the South).
 
Yeah, hardcore feminists are very, very brutal. Well call them Feminazi's here.

I probably won't participate in this beyond saying that Woman and Men will ALWAYS have different societal roles, whether people like it or not. Equal rights is fine and dandy but lets not get carried away.
 
For purposes of this post, "Feminist" is taken to mean someone who values women over men, or thinks that women are superior to men and thus deserve more rights / better X / etc.. "Chauvinist" is the same, except switch men and women.

On the average, men are physically more powerful than women. Men outperform women on math and science. Women outperform men at multi-tasking. You can give a bunch of examples of one sex outperforming the other on average on variance competency tests.

Both feminists and chauvinists use this to prove that one group or the other ought to have certain rights or responsibilities over the other. To do so is intellectual laziness.

Take the military, for example. If the only argument against women serving in the military is that, on average, they are physically weaker, and thus should not be allowed in / not part of the draft, that is laziness, plain and simple. Sure, if everyone physically capable were in the military, there would be more men than women. But there are still some men that are not physically capable to be serving in active combat (for instance, I may not be fit because I have horrible knees in particular and just bad joints in general), and there are some women who are capable. If you say "Men tend to be more physically powerful, and physical powerfulness is good for the military, therefore we want men, not women, in active duty in the military.", then you are being lazy. Why use gender as an indirect measure of strength when you can just directly measure strength?

This is similar to my problem with affirmative action. If the argument for affirmative action is that non-whites tend to be poorer, and therefore have worse opportunities, and therefore deserve a little more help, then that, too, is laziness. There are two solutions that I find better than racial aid: either fix the actual problem (poor schooling in predominately black neighborhoods, for instance), or give the aid based on what you are actually trying to measure: economic status. There is no reason to use race as a general indicator of economic status when you could actually measure economic status. Then you help the poor white kid, and don't give aid to the son of the black federal judge or CEO.
 
I think its good that there are feminists. I'm a girl and I'm all for equal rights. A woman could be just as good or even better than a man if we are given a chance.

I learned that there is no country today where women are treated better than men. There are many countries where women are treated like dirt, and don't even get to have an education or anything! I feel really bad for those girls out there who are hated by their fathers because they didn't come out with a penis or those girls who are beaten or raped by other men.

I've been to 3rd world countries before, and my sister and I have been treated much worse than my brother. I was being whistled at and one of the men even offered me some money to do it with him (but my dad stopped him of course)! I would hate to imagine how the girls there live their everday lives being seen as a second class person!
 
Male and female roles in society date back to prehistoric times, where the patriarchy was dominant.

I guess we haven't really gotten rid of this ideal. While women and men should be treated equally, feminism appears to be a way of women choosing to value themselves higher than men as a sort of 'retaliatory effort' to prove that, yes, we were wrong; women are as equal as men.
 
Yeah, I hate stuff like that. On the topic of Oprah's all African girls school, I thought that it should allow mixed genders, but my mom said "I'm glad it's that way, it solves two problems at once". I could not understand that logic. Couldn't boys be just as capable leaders as women? The trick is to support EQUAL treatment, not give women the rights and say "Hey, they're treated like crap in third-world countries, why shouldn't they have this?". By doing that, you are a total hypocrite.
 
I have some thoughts on the issue... but please hear me out. "Equal Treatment" may mean many things depending on how you look at it.

Lets take this chart for example:

SAT_by_sex.png


Assuming you look at the SAT score and the SAT score only. Very clearly, assuming equal treatment and assuming you don't care about gender at all... you will on the average select male students more often than female students.

The question of whether or not the SAT is a fair test is another question of course and needs to be answered. But if colleges only cared about how a student performs on a standardized test and was not influenced at all by gender, they will still on the average pick the male student because male students score higher on the SAT by some 10 points on Verbal, and some 30+ points in Math.

Regarding greater interpretation... we can't say much aside from what the chart already says. Don't try to extrapolate the meaning of statistics. This chart could simply state that smarter females don't take the SAT, that dumb Males don't take the SAT, or that the SAT is itself biased against women.

But the question is this: if Women indeed performed worse on tests than Men, then is it not "equal treatment" for less women to be accepted into colleges, lower wages and etc. etc. on the average? Hypothetically of course. In this case, if women were indeed worse at taking tests then Men... then I would believe that it is fair for women on the average to be less well off.

I am willing to be proven wrong on this case of course. And I don't know enough statistics / studies to extrapolate whether or not it is true in the real world. Nonetheless, this hypothetical sticks to my mind.

Considering the complex nature of a human mind... I actually wouldn't be surprised that women perform worse on the SAT because society tells them that they are bad in Math. I assume this is what Feminists believe keep them down... so I can't really disagree with their actions. I honestly don't know the answer in these cases...
 
Modern feminism in America can best be summed up as encouraging both genders to acquire the worst traits of men and nullify the best traits of women.

Call me when Susan B. Anthony comes back, Eve Ensler is stinking up the place.

Women are catered to in high school and college courses. Women now outnumber men by a substantial margin in most colleges, and naturally while there are still all female schools, most of the all male schools have been integrated because it's only sexism if it's a fraternity, apparently. Only private schools retain some power over who they will or won't let in.

Boys are taught to ignore their male nature to be more "sensitive," and "caring," and to stop roughousing around while women are taught they're just as good as the boys in everything, including areas where men obviously dominate, such as athletics. They are driven by feminists to compete on fields where male aggression and roughness are neccesary just to make the cut. You will never find a co-ed "girls" team, but if a girl wants to join the boys team, we have to be sensitive to her and tell her she's just as good.

Nevermind that they are now ignoring scores in sports altogether, because we care more about "self-esteem" and "a level playing field" than we do about learning from mistakes. The kids keep score still of course, but a bunch of namby pamby "everyone's a winner" shlocky adults feel better about themselves.

This model means that women seek to have all the arrogance, rudeness, roughness, and edginess that give males an advantage at the expense of kindness, compassion, tact, and sensibility found in desirable women. It has led to a bunch of narcissisctic 30-something women who have been passed over by men who just aren't interested in putting up with the "I'm better than the boys" garbage.

They of course, blame it on the patriarchy (see: Eve Ensler, Gloria Steinem, basically any feminist written after 1960) when all their lives they've been pandered to. There's a saying: Chivalry is dead and women killed it.

It seems the feminists finally got down to Australia. Don't let them do to your country what they're doing to ours. Australians should protect their culture, it is handed down from the British, who has the most successful society in modern history before America (before its falling into sissery) one-uped them through good circumstances.

If the people in Australian culture are failing academically where they used to suceed, it's because Australian culture is being poisoned the same way American culture has. The US schools have already dropped to craptastic level because of this feminizing, "nobody can lose, competition doesn't matter" crap.

Notice that the most masculine cultures, the Asian ones, beat the snot out of every other country academically. This is because they demand excellence and strive for competition instead of demanding everyone play nice and not get their feelings hurt. I'm sure there's a balance inbetween the chauvinism and this fluffy crap, but feminism as it stands today is a crock.
 
I don't like the SAT because I think girls have a more 'multi-tasking' mind. The boys at my school do better than us girls because they could focus on one thing and do a great job at it, while we are more balanced out.

I think this is because in the past, men are more used to working and women stayed at home. Most jobs require you to be good at a specific thing, which men are good at, and staying at home requires many skills (cooking, cleaning, taking care of the children).
 
Kristy Haruka said:
I think its good that there are feminists. I'm a girl and I'm all for equal rights. A woman could be just as good or even better than a man if we are given a chance.

I learned that there is no country today where women are treated better than men. There are many countries where women are treated like dirt, and don't even get to have an education or anything! I feel really bad for those girls out there who are hated by their fathers because they didn't come out with a penis or those girls who are beaten or raped by other men.

I've been to 3rd world countries before, and my sister and I have been treated much worse than my brother. I was being whistled at and one of the men even offered me some money to do it with him (but my dad stopped him of course)! I would hate to imagine how the girls there live their everday lives being seen as a second class person!
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That is the problem. Women are seeking to be superior, not equality. Feminism is what Obi said, females trying to dominate. They are only looking out for their own sex instead of mankind in general. And yes, it is called mankind. I am all for equality, not one being better than the other. The U.S. allows equal rights for all citizens regardless of their ethnicity, sex, or personal beliefs. It does now, at least. And if you are a "feminazi," just move to Wyoming and leave the rest of the world the fuck alone.

Kristy Haruka said:
I don't like the SAT because I think girls have a more 'multi-tasking' mind. The boys at my school do better than us girls because they could focus on one thing and do a great job at it, while we are more balanced out.

I think this is because in the past, men are more used to working and women stayed at home. Most jobs require you to be good at a specific thing, which men are good at, and staying at home requires many skills (cooking, cleaning, taking care of the children).
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The only time a multi-tasking mind even comes into play, is when doing multiple tasks. Otherwise it does not matter. That is just a poor excuse for why women are not as good at taking tests as men. You should not have to think of excuses to defend your point. Multi-tasking is irrelevant. It is not even a mindset. Kinetic, visual, and audio are mindsets. That is how you focus and comprehend something.
 
From my personal experience, the kind of men who lash out against feminism and pretend that it's a huge social issue have had very bad experiences with women (or no experience at all). The same goes for women who tend to hate men. Both groups are very annoying.

A big misconception is that women are wired to be more "caring", "soft", and less competitive than men. This is a product of socialization more than biology, little girls are raised to adhere to their society's idea of feminine. For example, I don't wear makeup and do my hair because I like to or because I'm more vain than the average man, it's just what women are supposed to do. Women are also extremely competitive, men just don't notice. Believe me when I tell you 90% of the reason women put on makeup and dress up is to trump the competition moreso than attract men.

While men do tend to be physically stronger (note this does not apply to 90% of the men on the internet), women have better stamina thanks to higher fat content in our muscles. Of course, neither of these things matter much because society is totally wrapped up in technology and computers instead of performing physically demanding tasks.
 
There are many kinds of feminism. At this point, I think it is time to define the various forms of feminism. Look at the feminist template on wikipedia... they list dozens of them.

(From the template )

Amazon
Anarchist
Black
Chicana
Christian
Cultural
Difference
Eco
Equity
Equality
Fat
Gender
Global
Individualist
Islamic
Jewish
Lesbian
Liberal
Marxist
New
Postcolonial
Postmodern
Pro-life
Radical
Religious
Separatist
Sex-positive
Socialist
Third world
Trans
Womanism

Some of these forms are nice viewpoints I can agree with... but some I just can't.
 
Commercialism, the media, society in general, all influence these thing. The norm is what causes women and men to assume their predetermined roles. Men and women can be completely equal on social standards, but when it comes to the actual physical anatomy, it is almost like night and day. We both have higher quantities of the opposite hormones, women tend, note the word tend, to have higher stamina and pain tolerance, whereas men tend, again note the word tend, to be physically stronger and slightly better at testing in science and math. Another example is men have larger brains, but women have brains with more surface area. Things like that.
 
Deck Knight said:
but if a girl wants to join the boys team, we have to be sensitive to her and tell her she's just as good.
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Meh. Just as often as not the girl players for some spot on a team are better than the boy players for said spot on the team.
 
blastoiselover100 said:
Commercialism, the media, society in general, all influence these thing. The norm is what causes women and men to assume their predetermined roles. Men and women can be completely equal on social standards, but when it comes to the actual physical anatomy, it is almost like night and day. We both have higher quantities of the opposite hormones, women tend, note the word tend, to have higher stamina and pain tolerance, whereas men tend, again note the word tend, to be physically stronger and slightly better at testing in science and math. Another example is men have larger brains, but women have brains with more surface area. Things like that.
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Did you know neanderthals had larger brains than the average modern human? I would hardly call them more intelligent.

The reason men have larger brains is because they are larger and have more muscle mass than women, more neurons are needed for motor control and thus the mass of the brain is larger.
 
Raikou said:
Did you know neanderthals had larger brains than the average modern human? I would hardly call them more intelligent.

The reason men have larger brains is because they are larger and have more muscle mass than women, more neurons are needed for motor control and thus the mass of the brain is larger.
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It was just a comparison. And women are able to multi-task because of the larger surface area. Just because Neandertals may have larger brains, does not mean they are more complex. I seriously doubt they have larger brains anyways.
 
Then do your research before you post.

http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/phychar/culture-humans-2two.html

1500 cc neanderthal average vs. 1400 cc modern human average.

People tend to stereotype a bit too much, the difference between individuals is much greater than the difference between populations and people tend to forget that. Most of my male classmates are terrible at math and science though I and several people I know do very well at it. Doctors are educated extensively in math and science and in Sweden(or was it Norway?) ~50% of their doctors are female, and the US is following suit though more slowly. That's more concrete evidence than some high school SAT scores.
 
i quite enjoy when a flock of rich privileged white women gather together and talk about how oppressive men are while leaving their mexican or peurto rican housekeeper or babysitter to keep things safe at home
 
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