Sorry, but I used Max/Max for Deoxys so it doesn't make sense to use anything else besides Max/Max on Cresselia.
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I think Deoxys-LG and Deoxys-E should be allowed in OU.
- Thread starter footballfanatic
- Start date
Sorry, but I used Max/Max for Deoxys so it doesn't make sense to use anything else besides Max/Max on Cresselia.
yeah actually iirc the standard support set used to be 252/252 but they changed it recently.
I'm copy/pasting a post made by Darth Spell on the Shoddy Battle forums. Shoddy just recently held a tournament where Deoxys-E was unbanned and this is what he had to say about it after playing in the tourney:
"When I heard Deoxys-e was going to be legal, I made all attempts to be sure that I'd be prepared for it...but when I finally found the Deoxys-e, it didn't last two seconds against my lead Yanmega anyway. Yes, he has enough speed to outrun Jolly Scarfchomp and OHKO with Ice Beam, but isn't that a good thing? Yes, he has a massive movepool, but does he really have the stats to use them? Against stall teams, normally vulnerable to mixed sweepers, yes. Anything else? No. However I mean, Superpower takes down Blissey, Shadow Ball takes out Cresselia, Thunderbolt takes out Skarmory and Ice Beam takes out Gliscor and Hippowdon. Aren't those good things? The most overused Pokemon in the game are destroyed by this "Uber", and yet the likes of Ludicolo, Dugtrio and Spiritomb fare well against him. Azumarril, Arcanine and Ambipom can strike in and KO first. Drapion's typing and Dark status makes it great for Night Slashing it into a grave. Scizor comes in on Ice Beam and Psychic and Swords Dances while the opponent expects X-Scizzor - if he stays in, kill it with Quick Attack. Steelix resists all of his mainstream attacks minus Superpower, which will just bounce off his 500+ defense anyway. Sash Cacturne and Absol can start to see more play thanks to Swords Dance / Sucker Punch. Jirachi has virtually nothing to worry about and can setup Calm Mind on it if its bulky, give it paralysis if it has Thunder or hurt it immensely and escape if it has U-Turn. Anything with Thunder Wave turns this thing into dead weight. Bronzong and Dusknoir, who are slowly loosing popularity, turn many variants useless as well. The game will become even more diverse, more strategic, turn alot of known facts into guessing games - as the "whores" lose usefulness, the underdogs will rise. The game will even out, meta will merge, and interest in the game will kindle faster. And if I'm wrong, its much easier to ban a Pokemon than to unban it...just look at the Manaphy case. Deoxys deserves a chance...the game deserves to see what it could be with a mixed threat other than Infernape on the table. The game isn't changing radically because of this, but its a breath of fresh air.
So the meta is shattered and diversity reigns supreme. Does that mean that the rest of the Pokemon community besides the incredible overused rapists of Garchomp and Blissey will lose effectiveness? No. Just because an attack is Super Effective doesn't mean its going to KO. In fact, in all my battles using Deoxys-e, he hasn't been even close to KOing a single Pokemon. Not to mention that his item of choice, Life Orb, drains his pitiful health stat to even more deperssing numbers. While Deoxys-e comes in to shatter Hippowdon, I wouldn't swap my hippo. Ice Beam does alot of damage, but definitely doesn't kill it. Then I'll be free to kill it with Earthquake after I absorb the attack. Superpower doesn't KO OU Blissey, unlike Uber Blissey, so she can still get in Thunder Wave, Softboiled, Wish or a finishing Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Is Tyranitar scared by Superpower? No. Crunch ensures Deoxys-e won't come in on the switch, and Tyraniboah can just hide behind a Substitute as it comes in to finish it with either Dark Pulse or the aforementioned Crunch. Togekiss does extremely well against Deoxys if it doesn't predict a Roost, but Thunder Wave will cripple it, and Air Slash will seal the deal anyway. Weavile might not like Superpower as well, but Deoxys-e hates Ice Shard and Pursuit just as much. Bullet Punch Metagross kills Deoxys-e before it gets a chance to move - let's not forget that it also has the deadly Super-Effective Pursuit as well! Choice Scarf Gengar can hurt it with Shadow Ball if it isn't facing something with an exhausting about of speed. Swampert absorbs an attack and kills it with Earthquake - especially Special Defense Swampert. Shadow Ball Deoxys-e takes awhile to take down Cresselia with Shadow Ball, and it can Thunder Wave it in the meantime or Calm Mind as it hacks away and Rest the damage off. Lucario comes in on alot and uses either Swords Dance / Extremespeed, Crunch, Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball to end its happy day. Special Defense Milotic and Calm Mind Suicune laugh at his attacks (the ladder needs a turn or two of setup to be comfortable) and either OHKO or 2HKO with Surf. Deoxys-e will find itself in heavy competition with itself - who can be the fastest in case of a mirror match. This of course results in weaker and weaker Deoxys-e attacks, which makes it even easier for all the other Pokemon to defend against it and kill it in no time flat. Speed isn't everything, apparently."
"When I heard Deoxys-e was going to be legal, I made all attempts to be sure that I'd be prepared for it...but when I finally found the Deoxys-e, it didn't last two seconds against my lead Yanmega anyway. Yes, he has enough speed to outrun Jolly Scarfchomp and OHKO with Ice Beam, but isn't that a good thing? Yes, he has a massive movepool, but does he really have the stats to use them? Against stall teams, normally vulnerable to mixed sweepers, yes. Anything else? No. However I mean, Superpower takes down Blissey, Shadow Ball takes out Cresselia, Thunderbolt takes out Skarmory and Ice Beam takes out Gliscor and Hippowdon. Aren't those good things? The most overused Pokemon in the game are destroyed by this "Uber", and yet the likes of Ludicolo, Dugtrio and Spiritomb fare well against him. Azumarril, Arcanine and Ambipom can strike in and KO first. Drapion's typing and Dark status makes it great for Night Slashing it into a grave. Scizor comes in on Ice Beam and Psychic and Swords Dances while the opponent expects X-Scizzor - if he stays in, kill it with Quick Attack. Steelix resists all of his mainstream attacks minus Superpower, which will just bounce off his 500+ defense anyway. Sash Cacturne and Absol can start to see more play thanks to Swords Dance / Sucker Punch. Jirachi has virtually nothing to worry about and can setup Calm Mind on it if its bulky, give it paralysis if it has Thunder or hurt it immensely and escape if it has U-Turn. Anything with Thunder Wave turns this thing into dead weight. Bronzong and Dusknoir, who are slowly loosing popularity, turn many variants useless as well. The game will become even more diverse, more strategic, turn alot of known facts into guessing games - as the "whores" lose usefulness, the underdogs will rise. The game will even out, meta will merge, and interest in the game will kindle faster. And if I'm wrong, its much easier to ban a Pokemon than to unban it...just look at the Manaphy case. Deoxys deserves a chance...the game deserves to see what it could be with a mixed threat other than Infernape on the table. The game isn't changing radically because of this, but its a breath of fresh air.
So the meta is shattered and diversity reigns supreme. Does that mean that the rest of the Pokemon community besides the incredible overused rapists of Garchomp and Blissey will lose effectiveness? No. Just because an attack is Super Effective doesn't mean its going to KO. In fact, in all my battles using Deoxys-e, he hasn't been even close to KOing a single Pokemon. Not to mention that his item of choice, Life Orb, drains his pitiful health stat to even more deperssing numbers. While Deoxys-e comes in to shatter Hippowdon, I wouldn't swap my hippo. Ice Beam does alot of damage, but definitely doesn't kill it. Then I'll be free to kill it with Earthquake after I absorb the attack. Superpower doesn't KO OU Blissey, unlike Uber Blissey, so she can still get in Thunder Wave, Softboiled, Wish or a finishing Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Is Tyranitar scared by Superpower? No. Crunch ensures Deoxys-e won't come in on the switch, and Tyraniboah can just hide behind a Substitute as it comes in to finish it with either Dark Pulse or the aforementioned Crunch. Togekiss does extremely well against Deoxys if it doesn't predict a Roost, but Thunder Wave will cripple it, and Air Slash will seal the deal anyway. Weavile might not like Superpower as well, but Deoxys-e hates Ice Shard and Pursuit just as much. Bullet Punch Metagross kills Deoxys-e before it gets a chance to move - let's not forget that it also has the deadly Super-Effective Pursuit as well! Choice Scarf Gengar can hurt it with Shadow Ball if it isn't facing something with an exhausting about of speed. Swampert absorbs an attack and kills it with Earthquake - especially Special Defense Swampert. Shadow Ball Deoxys-e takes awhile to take down Cresselia with Shadow Ball, and it can Thunder Wave it in the meantime or Calm Mind as it hacks away and Rest the damage off. Lucario comes in on alot and uses either Swords Dance / Extremespeed, Crunch, Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball to end its happy day. Special Defense Milotic and Calm Mind Suicune laugh at his attacks (the ladder needs a turn or two of setup to be comfortable) and either OHKO or 2HKO with Surf. Deoxys-e will find itself in heavy competition with itself - who can be the fastest in case of a mirror match. This of course results in weaker and weaker Deoxys-e attacks, which makes it even easier for all the other Pokemon to defend against it and kill it in no time flat. Speed isn't everything, apparently."
No. Deoxys has an awesome movepool as well as Recover instead of Moonlight for the PP and is able to have one of the most diverse movesets in the whole game.
Also; Yanmega beats anything one on one if it the foe doesn't have a Scarf due to speed boost and can use Hypnosis against the enemy then proceed to killing it.
not to mention the amount of hacked deoxys would undoutably skyrocket which would be incredibly bad for the econemy but seriously if you do look at the figures
Deoxys-D: With Defenses second only to shuckle and moves capable of upping them namely Cosmic Power and Calm Mind for some special sweeping Deoxys-D Becomes far more deadly with 30 more Base hp than shuckle and the ability to heal himself with recover, not to mention spikes/stealth rocks, knock off and to a lesser extent defense wise Amnesia and Iron Defense. Bare in mind this thing could toxicstall near anything to death INCLUDING Lugia and Giratina but that comes down to who uses toxic first and the whole switching in out, in out etc.
Deoxys-E: Wow is this thing a beast or what? With a base speed that outruns Ninjask and 95 Base in both attacks, slap on a Band or your Specs and you have the best revenge killer in the game this thing is an absolute beast!
Oh and while your out making wild claims lets allow Deoxys-N(ormal) in OU it only has 150 Base speed and Base Attacks.... shouldnt be much of a threat hell it gets outclassed by somthing else so by your logic it obviously deserves to be an OU
/Analysis/Rant
Deoxys-D: With Defenses second only to shuckle and moves capable of upping them namely Cosmic Power and Calm Mind for some special sweeping Deoxys-D Becomes far more deadly with 30 more Base hp than shuckle and the ability to heal himself with recover, not to mention spikes/stealth rocks, knock off and to a lesser extent defense wise Amnesia and Iron Defense. Bare in mind this thing could toxicstall near anything to death INCLUDING Lugia and Giratina but that comes down to who uses toxic first and the whole switching in out, in out etc.
Deoxys-E: Wow is this thing a beast or what? With a base speed that outruns Ninjask and 95 Base in both attacks, slap on a Band or your Specs and you have the best revenge killer in the game this thing is an absolute beast!
Oh and while your out making wild claims lets allow Deoxys-N(ormal) in OU it only has 150 Base speed and Base Attacks.... shouldnt be much of a threat hell it gets outclassed by somthing else so by your logic it obviously deserves to be an OU
/Analysis/Rant
Sitrus berry activates at 1/3 or less.
No, I said if "that"(i.e. what you said about it being 2HKO'd by Weavile/Heracross) proves it should be Uber, then that same evidence is proof that Cress should be Uber.
We shouldn't be debating about its ability to take hits, I've already proved that Cress takes hits better.
If anything proves that it's uber, it's its ability to recover and it's better movepool than Cress.
Realistically, LG is probably a little bit to good to be in OU, but I think in no way is E too good.
Because you can't OHKO a 0/0 garchomp with ice beam without EVs in SpA.
Anyway, 252/252 neutral cresselia - 51.80% - 61.04%
bold - 47.30% - 55.63%
bold vs Adamant same as the neutral.
So, yes, a fully defensive cresselia has a decent chance of surviving 2 CB night slashes assuming that the weavile player isn't also going for max power.
It doesn't address the fact that Deoxys-D's movepool completely overpowers cresselia's though, having every single decent move that Cresselia learns or a better version thereof (hi moonlight), plus a ton more available.
While everyone knows that Deoxys-E is still in the works (personally I think it's a bit overkill for OU and using a tournament as a testing device is questionable at best), Deoxys-L is absolutely hands-down an Uber. 50 base HP may not be much, but it's more than Dusknoir (as are Deoxys-L's defensive stats, clocking in at 25 higher than the fat ghost's). Add to that the movepool and you've got one hell of an Uber supporter.
Let's assume that the Shadow Ball does exactly 67%, or 297 HP, the minimum to activate Sitrus Berry. Cress is now 150, and Sitrus Berry pushes it up to 180 HP. Is Cress going to survive the next Shadow ball that Inflicts 297 HP? Even if the 1st hit was max and the 2nd hit min, there's no way Cress survives.
Because you can't OHKO a 0/0 garchomp with ice beam without EVs in SpA.
Anyway, 252/252 neutral cresselia - 51.80% - 61.04%
bold - 47.30% - 55.63%
bold vs Adamant same as the neutral.
So, yes, a fully defensive cresselia has a decent chance of surviving 2 CB night slashes assuming that the weavile player isn't also going for max power.
It doesn't address the fact that Deoxys-D's movepool completely overpowers cresselia's though, having every single decent move that Cresselia learns or a better version thereof (hi moonlight), plus a ton more available.
No, With leftovers, Night Slash will NEVER 2HKO unless there's a critical.
I've already conceeded that LG is too good for OU...now let's talk about E.
Yeah you're right, but I've moved on from the LG arguement.
DEOXYS-LG SHOULD BE AN UBER.
There, that should clear up any further confusion about my stance.
I agree with the poster, anything that is 2HKO'd by a STAB Super-Effective Choice Band-boosted attack is NOT uber-capable!
Also, Deoxys-E has just the right stats and just the right places to kick ass in OU. Psycho Boost is its main weapon, with the power to outspeed and 2HKO just about everything it hits neutral. It also has Superpower, negating Blissey, Regice, Snorlax, and Tyranitar as counters! Then it gets Shadow Ball to hurt Cresselia while it can't do anything outside of Calm Mind or Thunder Wave, meaning your typical Rest/Sleep Talk/Psychic/Ice Beam Cresselias lose, especially factoring in SpDef drops. Then it has a free slot to do whatever the hell it wants. It can Taunt, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Recover, whatever. Hell, you could even Knock Off!
That's my personal stance.
Also, Deoxys-E has just the right stats and just the right places to kick ass in OU. Psycho Boost is its main weapon, with the power to outspeed and 2HKO just about everything it hits neutral. It also has Superpower, negating Blissey, Regice, Snorlax, and Tyranitar as counters! Then it gets Shadow Ball to hurt Cresselia while it can't do anything outside of Calm Mind or Thunder Wave, meaning your typical Rest/Sleep Talk/Psychic/Ice Beam Cresselias lose, especially factoring in SpDef drops. Then it has a free slot to do whatever the hell it wants. It can Taunt, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Recover, whatever. Hell, you could even Knock Off!
That's my personal stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Fenikkusu
Because you can't OHKO a 0/0 garchomp with ice beam without EVs in SpA.
Anyway, 252/252 neutral cresselia - 51.80% - 61.04%
bold - 47.30% - 55.63%
bold vs Adamant same as the neutral.
So, yes, a fully defensive cresselia has a decent chance of surviving 2 CB night slashes assuming that the weavile player isn't also going for max power.
It doesn't address the fact that Deoxys-D's movepool completely overpowers cresselia's though, having every single decent move that Cresselia learns or a better version thereof (hi moonlight), plus a ton more available.
No, With leftovers, Night Slash will NEVER 2HKO unless there's a critical.
I've already conceeded that LG is too good for OU...now let's talk about E.
of course, we're also forgetting something that runs rampant in OU. stealth rocks. taking 12% coming, he will always be 2HKOed.
although we should have tourney for deoxys-e, however, i think he will be too overpowered. its mainly his speed. only 39 guys have the potential to outrun him with a scarf, and of those, only 7 are OU.
Sitrus berry heals 25% of your max HP, not 30 HP.
95 sp.atk/atk is not mediocre. It may not be metagrosses 135 or p-z's 135 but its still too strong for OU. Since it outspeeds everything it can slap those sweepers with low defenes everywhere. Such as infernape/azelf/weavile/etc. If you excpect a priority move then extremespeed.
LG, i don't need to explain.
Move pool on both is also anoth + to uberness. E might not due well in UBER but it is too good for OU. Just like manaphy and mew. (which are only there due to ability/movepool)
LG, i don't need to explain.
Move pool on both is also anoth + to uberness. E might not due well in UBER but it is too good for OU. Just like manaphy and mew. (which are only there due to ability/movepool)
Posting to back this and to say shut up about the ubers in OU threads.
I would just like to point out how much of an idiot this guy is. Yeah sure, Deoxys-S has OU counters, but that doesn't make it OU. That's like saying, well because Groundon gets countered by Cresselia lets make Groudon OU. Duh. Also things like saying TTar doesn't worry about Deoxys Superpower because BOAH always fights behind a sub is just stupid. TTar doesn't worry about Rayquaze Outrage when its behind a sub either does it. That's just pointing out how TyraBOAH plays, and on top of that, not even half the Tars out there are BOAHs. There are so many other stupid things in this statement that I can't be bothered to point out either, this essay was really not worth the time it took to read. Things like pointing out why it SHOULDN'T be OU, and thinking he was proving why it should be.
Yeah Darth its great that hes overpowered enough to run over all his counters depending on moveset.
nice, ultimatefreshness, you werent as lazy as me and, and you basically typed what i was thinking while reading it.
i like how he was arguing that it could be countered, so its OU. he's also trying to argue that it will be a sweeper, while i see him as the best revenge killer ever. slap some specs on him, and then outspeeds everything except base 105s and above with scarf and significant speed evs.
i like how he was arguing that it could be countered, so its OU. he's also trying to argue that it will be a sweeper, while i see him as the best revenge killer ever. slap some specs on him, and then outspeeds everything except base 105s and above with scarf and significant speed evs.
Why don't we hold a tourney and find out?
I'm willing to make Deoxys-E for everyone.
I'm willing to make Deoxys-E for everyone.
The tournament has only been over for a few days. Right now, we are collecting opinions from people who played in the tournament about how well Deoxys-e actually worked. Most people we've talked or who have posted on the forum indicate that they did not need a special counter for Deoxys-e, and that it did not break their battles. Not a single person who we've talked to (and we've attempted to collect opinions for everybody in the tournament) has thought that Deoxys-e proved to be unfair, even people who just used their ordinary teams, and not specialised teams.
We plan to leave the discussion open for around a week, and if the clear consensus is that Deoxys-e is not broken, he will be unbanned on the Shoddy Battle ladder. The only reason nothing has been done so far is that the discussion is not yet over.
If you are reading this and played in the tournament and have not posted in that thread yet, I ask that you do it there rather than here (or at least both places) so that we have all the opinions regarding the tournament in one place.