BH Balanced Hackmons

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
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I'm gonna jump in here before this spirals into anything unnecessary.

Anchor Shot + Low Kick Zama-C with Fur Coat most certainly threatens / checks offensive Zacian-C. Sure, Zacian-C can sap it, but Body Press can be used here to help Zama-C in this matchup. Zama-C isn't too worried about Precipice Blades since its a 3HKO. V-create is more concerning but Zama-C benefits from the drops in Speed and Defense.

Without Taunt (or Shell Shell / Pivot move), Zama-C is going to lose to Imprison + Transform Zacian-C. Taunt does help a lot here because it can switch into Anchor Shot and Taunt the next turn while Zacian-C uses Imprison. The Zacian-C user has to decide between staying in to spam Anchor Shot and take potential Rocky Helmet chip and potential damage from things like Low Kick / Body Press / Spectral Thief or just switching out. But this matchup really depends on how much momentum Zacian-C has, as Zama-C loses if it comes in a turn too late.

Also, Zacian-C with Imprison + Transform does not only run Strength Sap. It is a great choice, but other options like Recover, Taunt, and Poison Fang / Toxic are also solid choices.
 
Hey everybody! I just want to say really quickly that I'm super happy to have joined the council and I'm excited to help guide and develop this metagame.

A little bit about me: I've been playing Balanced Hackmons since gen6bh. I've been on and off throughout gen6 and 7, before starting to really get deep into the meta around the time shell smash was getting suspected. After getting to the finals of the BH Open in March, I began to develop a really strong grasp of the metagame, and eventually, I was asked to join BH council, so here I am. I'd also like to talk about what you should expect from me as a council member and my ideals.

My philosophy with building up a metagame in general and banning things is that I want to be very precarious with everything that might be suspected, quick-banned, or unbanned. I want to make sure that all metagame changes are generally understood by everyone, and that even if someone might not agree with a change made, they can see and understand the possible reasoning behind it (this includes the BH boomers who might look at the banlist and be like "WHAT THE HECK. COUNCIL HAS RUINED THIS METAGAME.")

Anywhase, I'd like to transition from this to some of my thoughts about the BH metagame.

I think as of this moment, BH is at the best place it's ever been since the start of gen8. There is room for a lot of dynamic play, and the meta now favors more proactive teams overall. Throughout these past few weeks, since the cram ban, I've seen a ton of different teams being developed, all ranging from the slowest of stall teams, to some neat HO ideas. The meta is currently in a pretty good space, however I do believe that a discussion about Zacian-Crowned's presence in it is necessary to be had because its presence to some can seem quite unhealthy.

There is no one pokemon more constraining to team building than Zacian-C. The coverage that Zacian-C has available to it, Glacial Lance, Bolt Strike, Sunsteel Strike, Play Rough, Fishious Rend, Precipice Blades, Close Combat, and V-Create; means that it can really pick and choose which pokemon it wants to own, and it has the ability to OHKO nearly any pokemon in the metagame that doesn't have fc. Thus, FC is often times mandated to stop Zacian-C. However, many of these pokemon are forced be extremely passive, as they have to click recover every time they come in on Zac-C since they'd be generally 3hkoed by most of its moves. The other issue is that Zac-C doesn't even have to hit them with direct damage. It can make an insane amount of progress too with hazards, or even kill them with imprisonform( barring they're not Giratina or shed shell fc). Zac-C can also run nuzzle or sticky webs on HO and BO teams to cripple these pokemon that are forced to come in on Zac-C because of its move set.

Currently, the most effective checks to Zacian-Crowned are FC Giratina, FC Palkia, FC Swampert, FC Zamazenta-Crowned, and terrible sap + Recover Prankster pokemon. Some Primordial Sea Steals, or Volt Absorb Ho-oh variants can also work, however they can simply get one shot by some of the coverage moves I previously listed, thus these aren't reliable. These FC pokemon have to be kept at max hp often times because coverage moves such as Glance or Play Rough will do too much to Giratina and Palkia, forcing the user into a losing situation. Zac-C can also make progress another way on these pokemon by setting up hazards and because of this and for the aforementioned reasons I don't consider these pokemon counters, I consider them checks, which bring me to my next point. There is no counter to Zacian-Crowned. I really want to make this clear. There is no one mon that exists which can counter all the Zac-C sets, a situation which can draw parallels to that of Mega-Rayquaza in gen7bh purely from how muc the two warped their respective metagames at the time.

Also, something which Mray didn't have that Zac-C boasts, is one of the best defensive typings in balanced hackmons. Stesl-Fairy allows Zacian-Crowned to switch into many offensive pokemon such as Xerneas, Kyurem-White & Black, and Eternatus, This allows the user to be able to make a ton of safe midgrounds, allowing the them to gain a ton of momentum and make progress, while simultaneously denying it. Zacian-Crowns immunity to dragon allows it to switch into many of the dragon pokemon which populate gen8bh and at times can make them ineffective purely by its defensive stats and typing. This makes it very difficult to stop Zacian-Crowned from coming in during a match.

With all these in mind, it can undoubtedly be said that the metagame has dramatically warped around Zacian-Crowned. Zac-C puts a lot of strain on the teambuilder, and forces one to not only prep for a variety of different Zacian-C sets but to also make sure that it doesn't lose to "all the other ones". There are always a few Zac-C sets which a team cannot stop from making progress and managing a game against such a Zacian-C is extremely difficult because of its ability to safely come in on a lot of pokemon. For these reasons mentioned above, many might think that Zacian-C's presence is very restricting for the metagame, both in the teambuilder and while playing.

However, some may argue that Zacian-Crowned's presence is inherently not a bad thing for the meta. Because of how effectively Zacian-Crowned is at making progress, it forces all the other guys to be equally proactive and deter it out and give it less opportunities to come in. This speeds up the metagame, and forces people to play very proactively, which to me is a good indicator of a healthy metagame.

I personally, am not quite sure. I could see myself leaning both sides. I hope this post is able to spur some conversations about Zacian-C and that we can get to a better answer, as weather its presence is healthy or not.

Anywhere, I look forward to working with you all and I hope we can steer the metagame in the right direction!
regarding zac-c I'm going to bring up some things no ones mentioned yet. imposter, as any decent BH player should know you do need to imposterproof your sets before you have your butt handed to you by a mon you created. so there's that but, imposter being the only real line of defense for all sets is kinda a bad (and shallow) reason, so what I propose is a suspect for zac-c or balancing change limitation on it like it cant have more than 2 moves with 100 or more bp or something along those lines. like how it needs to run its item.( just an idea no need to rip into it on a multicellular level) I have 3 reasons for this

1. probably the weakest reason to most of you but its been a while since it was suspect/ quickbanned in a very different meta and many bans and meta shifts have happened since then.

2. its main problem is its movepool granted by BH mechanics. if it was granted adaptability or tough claws but had its base moveset it would be worse and there are calcs to back this.

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 222-264 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 228-272 (45.2 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 222-264 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 258-306 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 190-225 (37.6 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
as you can see while the banded sets do outdamage the base set you do have to remember that youre choice locked and that base zac-c has no recovery which means all you would need to do is chip it down over the match as outside of wish and the lefties it would rather be running it doesnt threaten you as much since that was one mon. and from its base moveset it it would most likely run behemoth blade/close combat/and 2 filler moves mening that you could definitely wall it or knock off its item.

3.
 
Without Taunt (or Shell Shell / Pivot move), Zama-C is going to lose to Imprison + Transform Zacian-C. Taunt does help a lot here because it can switch into Anchor Shot and Taunt the next turn while Zacian-C uses Imprison. The Zacian-C user has to decide between staying in to spam Anchor Shot and take potential Rocky Helmet chip and potential damage from things like Low Kick / Body Press / Spectral Thief or just switching out. But this matchup really depends on how much momentum Zacian-C has, as Zama-C loses if it comes in a turn too late.

Also, Zacian-C with Imprison + Transform does not only run Strength Sap. It is a great choice, but other options like Recover, Taunt, and Poison Fang / Toxic are also solid choices.
A turn too late would actually be a misplay, unless you don't have anything to hit it hard with or any pivot moves on neither of your mons. You would have to stay in on imprison with another mon then switch into zama-C on anchor shot to lose....?

Regardless, imprison Zacian with taunt beats my set, but problem with that set is you would bank on getting recovery from transforming or having a passive wish supporter. Now you have a different dilemma trying to fit wish support and or aromatherapy since it is still very susceptible to status moves.
Furthermore there are still many other FC counters that can deal with imprison as well, by status and running pivot moves and/or shed shell (cresselia, swampert, suicune, volt absorb or FC volcanion), or just use FC/flashfire doublade.

I can only really see 1 problematic offensive Zacian set vs my Zama-C:

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock/spikes
- Strength Sap?/filler

But honestly how much offensive pressure can it get, burn + 3 layers of spike? You also don't have coverage for rest of the meta + can always be court changed.

S - tier mon for sure, but hopefully after this discussion people will now know how to deal with it much better.
 
Just want to clear up some inaccuracies here first:

Regardless, imprison Zacian with taunt beats my set, but problem with that set is you would bank on getting recovery from transforming or having a passive wish supporter. Now you have a different dilemma trying to fit wish support and or aromatherapy since it is still very susceptible to status moves.
Since walls coming in on impform are passive, Zacian-c can click imprison followed by transform, and even though the passive wall isn't trapped, Zacian gets a free turn to recover as it switches out. So acting like forgoing recovering on impform zac-c is a huge concession is wrong. Impform zac-c with hazards can force its walls to recover, giving it even more free turns, and stalling even Giratina and Aegislash which would normally come freely on it, out of recovery pp.

Furthermore there are still many other FC counters that can deal with imprison as well, by status and running pivot moves and/or shed shell (cresselia, swampert, suicune, volt absorb or FC volcanion), or just use FC/flashfire doublade.
Most of these options are bad and can't actually beat the things they're walling or have other serious weaknesses. For example Doublade can't afford to lose its eviolite, Volcanion and Swampert are pressured heavily by hazards, etc. Most non-stall teams don't have room for more than a single FC user so picking the right one is very hard. Running U-turn makes it much harder to self improof, and running Shed Shell is very costly when these walls can get a lot more general utility out of leftovers recovery or Rocky Helmet chip.
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Because of the fact that Impform mons, if they get a successful anchor shot off on a mon that can't hurt them, can simply delete that mon with no risk, I propose a suspect test on the move Imprison. This will do the least amount of colateral damage, especially since no one is complaining that Zacian-c's colorful array of coverage is too much (I don't think it is, either). Impform isn't limited only to Zacian-C; other bulky mons such as Zamazenta-C and Magearna successfully run it. The fact that impform Zac-c is self improof after it clicks imprison doesn't help the case. Imprison has a few niche uses other than impform, such as prankster imprison + haze to prevent prankster hazes from removing setup from a baton pass chain, but since those are unreliable right now, that is a small loss. Removing Imprisonform allows these passive walls to not have to risk their lives every time Zacian-C and other impform users come in.
 

Balanced Fuckmon

I COULD BE BANNED!
There is no counter to Zacian-Crowned...
...Currently, the most effective checks to Zacian-Crowned are FC Giratina, FC Palkia, FC Swampert, FC Zamazenta-Crowned, and terrible sap + Recover Prankster pokemon.
Wrong.
FC Reshiram can tolerate double Precipice Blades and cripple Zac-C with Lava Plume. FC Eternatus kinda does the same thing too, FC Doublade is also an option but it has no use other than being a Def Wall and gets 2HKOed by V-create after it loses its Eviolite.
 
Wrong.
FC Reshiram can tolerate double Precipice Blades and cripple Zac-C with Lava Plume. FC Eternatus kinda does the same thing too, FC Doublade is also an option but it has no use other than being a Def Wall and gets 2HKOed by V-create after it loses its Eviolite.

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Reshiram: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Honestly the dragon type does it no good either. Reshiram was good as FC in the Galarian darm zen meta because it had 10 less base attack.

Volcanion is just a much better alternative with a much better dual typing also resisting the rampant choice band glacial lance spamming Kyurem - B as well as metroXern:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Volcanion: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

59 %
is still a high number, but Zacian has to run adamant and sacrifice its precious speed and also run a high drawback move with 85 % acc.

Volcanion is also everything from passive, scald/steam erupt for burn and V - create to 1 shot zacian just incase it tries any funny business with anchor, imprison + transform.

252 Atk Volcanion V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 374-444 (96.3 - 114.4%)


Eternatus would be good but it straight up gets 2 shot by Adamant sunsteel strike even with Black sludge:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 246-289 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Melmetal with leftovers is also a sure bet, but may be too passive for some:
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Melmetal: 222-262 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zacian can be quite overwhelming if you pair it with Metroxern and/or Teravolt/tinted lens Kyurem-B running choice band etc, but on its own you really need to have the "right" moves and sometimes need Adamant nature for a potential 2 hit KO.


Edit: While calculating zacian vs some FC walls you quickly realize how good Adamant can be on it, here are some more calc showing how Adamant is barely enough to 2 hit KO:
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 210-247 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Golisopod: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Melmetal: 222-262 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Suicune: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO
 
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Wrong.
FC Reshiram can tolerate double Precipice Blades and cripple Zac-C with Lava Plume. FC Eternatus kinda does the same thing too, FC Doublade is also an option but it has no use other than being a Def Wall and gets 2HKOed by V-create after it loses its Eviolite.
Wrong.
Lava Plume cannot kill Zac-c within 3 turns, so it dies to ImpriTrans Zacian-C. I think the best counter of Zac-c now are FC Zama or FC Gira, cuz FC Giratina can tolerate at least two times of all moves, and also immune to trapping, so it can deal with ImpriTrans, but it need to make sure that it is always full health or will 2hko by Zac-c with SunStrike, which is quite annoying.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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so basically an issue with zacc i have is that yes counters exist, but a lot of them just feel super unusable to me. palk/xern/resh on occasion are pretty common and also hard to deal with, and all the counters listed here fail to do pretty much anything against them. no, volcanion does not beat metro xern without scales because you have no spdef: 252+ SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Volcanion: 128-151 (35.2 - 41.5%), volc is forced to recover, xern picks up the kill easily.

the problem is you can get forced into some real Hombre Pasivo defensive core type things with like desolate land hooh, some prank user, and (somehow) counterplay for the myriad of physical and special attackers that beat your guys. you are not running imposter. you are not running any consistent source of breaking power (bringing your own zacc does not work here because it never finds good opportunities to come in with that passive defensive core). you just lose to like everything in the game. this is why i dont like these counters, you start yourself off on the back foot and you're just asking to lose to any sort of ladder variance with weird sets or any bit of hax.

if we're going to evaluate whether or not zacc is broken, it should be assuming you aren't creating irreversible holes in your team just to deal with it. while these pokemon arent completely unviable, in practice they can be extremely strained and can be a massive pain for the rest of the team to take care of. i think these pokemon are better at beating zacc and not losing to everything else:

Palkia @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Recover
- Scald
- Spectral Thief

the best counter. only loses specifically if they play rough you on the switch (though you do have to scout imprisonform), not passive, helps against other physical attackers like regigigas, actually puts in work with scald burns, able to run helmet.

Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Haze
- Flare Blitz
- Recover
- Court Change

prank entei!!! you die to pblades and imprisonform but can haze on rend. i like using the prank as a zacc answer because its very easy to throw out vs zacc balances that beat the prank with everything else. kinda beats xern on occasion. best when used with other answers.

Lunala @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nuzzle
- Hex
- Core Enforcer
- Roost

the guy. very strong pokemon, BEATS IMPRISONFORM, more helmet action so u laugh even if they sunsteel you, will win the game unless youre facing tttech and his regen heal bell umbreon (????????).

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Heal Bell / Court Change
- Recover
- Anchor Shot / Whirlwind
- Spectral Thief

must be used with one of the above counters, but with both you have a pretty good chance at beating zacc and you also get to run imposter which is a massive help against everything else. good times!

OTHER FUNNY THINGS:

- fc pert, though i have had unfortunate run-ins with ph regi as this mon
- fc suicune sucks and youre probably bad at the game if you use it. water that loses to palk kekw
- fc gira is decent but is veeeeery passive
- fc volcarona is awesome just bring a water resist and u beat everyone. shame it cant run helmet
- once i tried to run galv zek as a response to this mon. it doesnt work, he takes like 50 from fakespeed its horrible dont use it
- golisopod is ok though you also kinda lose to ph regi and can get forced into ultra passive sets like uturn recover worry seed pain
- prank dbond is pretty decent though trading off the prank isnt always good unless you have like a second one in the back
- ran ff zamac scarf imposter desolate land victini on offense once which was pretty stupid
- dont use fc ludicolo. please.
- triage sap is funny though there are like no good users
 
Dialga @ Rocky Helmet / Shed shell / leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Topsy-Turvy
- Strength Sap
- Spiky Shield / kings shield

hi friends piggybacking off cityscapes post here ill show my zacian counter.

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 105-123 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 105-123 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- 1.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 91-108 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 28.1% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 91-108 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 45-54 (11.1 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 45-54 (11.1 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO (non leftovers)
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dialga: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO

as you can see it pretty evenly survives most of its attacks without a problem and even if it hits with a pblades or close combat on switch you can strength sap next turn and have a base zacian that only 3hkos. before anyone brings up a crit close combat or pblades on switch, id like to remind you while this theoretically means death the chances of it happening in a real game are incredibly low. anchor shot allows you to trap the zac if it doesnt switch after sap and since most of its moves are only about 8pp you can theoretically pp stall it with this mon.

spiky shield is the alt if you dont have helmet while kings shield helps with lowering atk. topsy turvy is fun since it shuts down things like geomancy and bdrum instantly if you can predict and is nice with zac if you want it to deal less than half the damage it dealt before. sap just lets you dab on it when it thinks it can pblade thrice for an easy kill. shed shell can be used if you want to deal with imprisonform better or don't have a mon that can do it already.
 
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Darm-G was never banned, and using Darm-G with Zen Mode and having it transform into the form Zen Mode is allowed, you just aren’t allowed to start with Darm-galar-zen.
Darmanitan-Galar can still be used if you give Darmanitan-Galar Zen Mode, but it's still banned if you try to use it without normal circumstances
sorry the waste of time then, last time i checked the list i thought it was on it
feel free to disregard my ramblings
 
over the last few days, I've been thinking about the metagame as a whole and its stability, when I think of broken mons in this tier I mostly think about zac-c, which is extremely strong on the offensive side, but I've also noticed a looming threat on the defensive side as well.

the mon I'm mentioning is obviously, Zama-c. while it has a few counters or checks on the physical side, but those are few and far between, like adaptability Groudon/Landorus-T, the occasional Desolate land user (although they fail to beat its primordial sea set), and the aforementioned Zac-C, with this list possibly dwindling even further with a possible suspect.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 268-316 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 236-280 (60.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 200-236 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned in Harsh Sunshine: 246-290 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

outside of limited counters, another issue is its flexibility in general. you can run this mon for just about anything, as it can run a multitude of great abilities such as Fur Coat, Prankster, Primordial Sea, or even Ice Scales. not to mention it's extremely flexible for role compression, as you can give it just about any move that you might need.

zama-c in my opinion is extremely hard to deal with given the lack of mons that can threaten it on the physical side, along with its counters not being consistent across its various sets, practically forcing you to run either a special mon to beat it or one of the mons mentioned in paragraph 2, which sometimes might not work.
 
Let's talk about how Zamac affects teambuilding. Yes, Zamac is bulky and has tons of great sets, and solid stats all around. However, none of its stats are best in class, and its defensive typing, though good, isn't the best, as the part fighting type brings plenty of unfriendly neutralities, the worst of these being Fairy. It also can't run all the abilities it wants at the same time, meaning that most good teams will have something to threaten it out, wear it down or pp stall it. For offensive teams, it can't run all of Fur Coat, Flash Fire, and Ice Scales at once, meaning that they can threaten to ohko it with something whether that be Reshiram, Palkia, Zacian-C or Metronome Xerneas. Because it doesn't have some of the standard resistances of the Steel-type, you have to compensate for those, which restricts your building more. For defensive teams, many of the Zamac sets, especially fur coat ones, are running Shed Shell to escape trapping from Impform, meaning they don't run Leftovers or Boots so they can be worn down with burns or Spikes, and can be put to sleep with Spore or paralyzed and broken through that way. Shed Shell Imposter is also a threat, capable of forcing it out for free recovery.

During the game, scouting out the Zamac set is not too difficult for an offensive team, since it's often the switchin of choice for one of the attackers on those teams, and a damage calculation can quickly give you the information you need. Zamac's fairly average attacking stats means that even if it does retaliate, it's not going to ohko your mon unless the move it used was super efective and boosted by STAB. Being at base 128 speed and without a boosting nature most of the time (this is a max of about 385 speed), any mon over base 80 can outspeed it after one speed boost with a neutral nature. Its bulk is just good enough to survive powerful hits against the unboosted side of its defenses, but it is also often unable to KO back, meaning that that speed boost is often key in beating it and outpacing its recovery. I feel that Zamac's presence is healthy for the metagame because it encourages smart positioning and incremental progress instead of explosive KOs and that's a good thing because it encourages skillful play during the game instead of matchup fishing in the teambuilder.
 

cityscapes

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wanted to talk about zacc.
  • worth noting that imprisonform is actually a really dumb set to take on defensively due to the massive amount of variants and techs to beat ghosts/shed shell/general walls. however this is not really part of my main point.
  • MAIN POINT: zacian-c is unreasonably good at shutting down offensive counterplay and has imo done more than any other mon to contribute to the inconsistency of offense as a style.
  • as you all know, zacian is strong, but what really pushes it over the edge in my opinion is its defensive utility and speed.
  • limiting zac-c with offense is an incredibly difficult task. killing it with priority is near-impossible outside of the dire galvanize zekrom, there is 1 (one) decent mon naturally faster than it, and its mobility cannot be limited by spikes/webs since hazards straight up do not work as a mechanic in this generation.
  • zac-c finds an unreasonably easy time coming in against common threats such as xerneas and has pushed out otherwise decent-to-great pokemon including eternatus, yveltal, kyurems, and offensive psychics (m2 solg dusk mane) from the metagame entirely. compare this to the resident anti-offense pokemon of gen 7, ph regi/slaking-- this mon has no resists (outside of spectrier rip bozo), needs a turn to set up, and needs its toxic orb activated, meaning there are a ton of windows to limit it.
  • unless you have an fc wall or expendable prank, you are not switching into zacc and forcing it out. it simply does not work like that. even scarfers like hooh and groudon can have issues straight up dying to moves like fishious or glance in addition to the obvious issue of being scarfed.
  • the only way to beat zacc really is to lame him out. even imposter fails to function as a good blanket check because vcreate/pblades just do too much so you're just totally losing long-term. this is mostly why i want to ban him.
  • i will say that more offensive and teams that are flexible rather than brittle are at least semi usable right now which is pretty epic. we have done well so far gamers.
 
I'm just going to give a quick one liner about this. I wholly agree with what city has written here. I'd just like to connect the two previous posts. Skylake discussed how Zama-C's presence in the meta is healthy, despite it's insane versatility, mainly because often times it isn't too active and gives the opponent enough time to play around the set and figure out what it actually is with smart positioning and playing, which is a sign of a healthy meta. Zac-C on the other hand forces the opponent to do the exact same thing, the only issue here is that one wrong move, and you might instantly find yourself a mon down. Yes you still need smart position but often for Zac-C it feels like throwing a dart at a dart board, and if u miss you lose a mon, whereas if you miss against Zama-C you're mildly inconvenienced. This results in a lot of tiptoing which results in the opponent making extremely passive plays and slow plays, often a sign of an unhealthy metagame. It's also difficult to offensively scout out Zac-C since any of your mons can die instantly to a move due to the vast amount of moves Zac-C can use. There is no one check to all Zac-C sets, there are only checks to specific Zac-C sets. It's offensive, defensive, and unparalleled speed tiers make it extremely difficult to prep for and play against. Whether it's presence is healthy or not I'm not sure, but those are simply my thoughts right now.

And just to reaffirm my point of the diverseness of Zac-C I compiled a pokepaste of a bunch of Zac-C sets that came to mind and organized them by category (spoiler I came up with 15 unique Zac-C sets, with each set being able to run a combination of different offensive moves)
https://pokepast.es/6f4107b6b207769c
 
I have a question: why is Bolt Beak banned but not Fishious Rend? This question may have been answered earlier, but idk. Isn't Bolt Beak just electric type Fishious Rend?
Simply put, Bolt Beak as a coverage option was far superior than Fishious Rend. With Bolt Beak water types pokemon more or less lost their viability, and it made Zac-C at times impossible to check. Fishious Rend on the other hand can at times be more easily checked with Desolate Land users and fc waters. Fishious Rend also hits a lot less viable pokemon than Bolt Beak, thus via a suspect test, Fishious Rend was kept, whereas Bolt Beak was banned.

Note: That Bolt Beak was primarily seen as broken not because of it as a stab move of Zekrom or Regieleki, but because of its insane coverage it gave to physical pokemon. (Bolt Beak / V-create / Glacial lance Mold Breaker Kyu-B at times had 0 checks).
 
I'm just going to give a quick one liner about this. I wholly agree with what city has written here. I'd just like to connect the two previous posts. Skylake discussed how Zama-C's presence in the meta is healthy, despite it's insane versatility, mainly because often times it isn't too active and gives the opponent enough time to play around the set and figure out what it actually is with smart positioning and playing, which is a sign of a healthy meta. Zac-C on the other hand forces the opponent to do the exact same thing, the only issue here is that one wrong move, and you might instantly find yourself a mon down. Yes you still need smart position but often for Zac-C it feels like throwing a dart at a dart board, and if u miss you lose a mon, whereas if you miss against Zama-C you're mildly inconvenienced. This results in a lot of tiptoing which results in the opponent making extremely passive plays and slow plays, often a sign of an unhealthy metagame. It's also difficult to offensively scout out Zac-C since any of your mons can die instantly to a move due to the vast amount of moves Zac-C can use. There is no one check to all Zac-C sets, there are only checks to specific Zac-C sets. It's offensive, defensive, and unparalleled speed tiers make it extremely difficult to prep for and play against. Whether it's presence is healthy or not I'm not sure, but those are simply my thoughts right now.

And just to reaffirm my point of the diverseness of Zac-C I compiled a pokepaste of a bunch of Zac-C sets that came to mind and organized them by category (spoiler I came up with 15 unique Zac-C sets, with each set being able to run a combination of different offensive moves)
https://pokepast.es/6f4107b6b207769c
What about something super bulky like Eternatus combined with Prism Armor, Shadow Shield, or Multiscale, and then Strength Sap. Or even Prankster Strength Sap?
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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What about something super bulky like Eternatus combined with Prism Armor, Shadow Shield, or Multiscale, and then Strength Sap. Or even Prankster Strength Sap?
first of all this has issues taking on teravolt users such as kyurem-b (which saw and still sees use to break through abilities such as fur coat and flash fire)

secondly you run into a lot of problems if the offensive mon decides to do anything other than attack you. in ompl we saw sets such as imprisonform and spore used to break through passive counterplay

finally, you can have a lot of issues in the builder if your team is too passive. if you run a passive wall like that, you will probably need to run another passive wall because of how easy it is for say special attackers to come in on your first passive wall. this can lead to brittle teams that aren't able to create counterplay if they get put into disadvantage. example is this game where my lugia got poisoned early and my offensive guys weren't able to do much because the rest of the team was so bad at creating pressure.
 
From my perspective Zac-C's versatility in sets can be boiled down to three in particular, the heavy hitting standard offense, imprisonform, and pivot + status/hazards support. The issue is that the walls required to check imprisonform and heavy hitting offense are incredibly incompatible with eachother, and as such you wont find any mon able to fill both roles or an easy way to accommodate both on your team at the same time without sacrificing a slot solely for that purpose. The general purpose status/hazards support pivot that usually packs a move like sunsteel etc is the hardest to actually wall on its own if you tried, but similarly it isn't able to actually destroy your team in the same way the other can, and if your team is well put together it is likely to be more of a nuisance than a threat. As mentioned by cityscapes up above its speed and defensive stats and typing make it really easy to throw in and lets you put minor pressure and throw down hazards and/or status.

But of course the real issue here is that the pressure isn't minor in the slightest, the difference between the two extreme ends of Zac-C sets can mean the difference between a win and a loss. Imagining a meta without such a centralizing figure like Zac-C is a daunting task and while it wouldn't be as game changing as the removal of Imposter, I personally believe it would impact the meta much bigger than the ban on Cramorant and bolt beak (possibly even combined).

On one hand you would be removing the fastest pokemon in the meta with the ability to tank a few hits and a very potent breaker that doesn't require setup, and on the other hand you're removing the requirement of specific walls that free up other slots on your team to be used more effectively. Even with the loss of an all around fast hitter I think offenses would be better off on balance teams due to less dedication to walls, allowing more space to dedicate into creative offenses and multi-mon synergies that are hard to take advantage of while prepping for all the kinds of Zac-C you could be hit with.

Do I think Zacian-Crowned should be banned? Probably, but it's a really hard call to make considering its practically the iconic staple of Gen8BH at this point. I definitely do not think the meta would be negatively effected by the removal of the imprisonform set, or the super offense sets. But the real loss would be in the form of the only fast mon with bulk and a pretty solid typing, and I personally view the utility Zac-C set as a healthy addition to the metagame and would be sad to see it go.
The value of a mon being bulky enough to take hits from Zama-C (aka arguably the most commonly used support) that is able to swap in freely and put on pressure with status or hazards, without being concerned about being outsped and taking 2 hits on the swap is incredible. This is the only reason I would hesitate to advocate banning Zac-C from the meta, but the immense pressure and versatility from imprisonform and the free +1 offense make it the biggest constraint to teambuilding and an overall unhealthy presence in the meta.
 
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Zacian-C is honestly a bullshit pokemon. Like, it's simultaneously our fastest and most powerful* attacker and with a great typing and also solid bulk, like what the hell. It renders whole swathe of possible stuff unviable, like whenever I try to run a fast mon I remind myself that it doesn't actually outspeed anything unless it's Pheromosa. Every setup sweeper has to outrun Zacian or they're unviable. Any fur coat you run has to wall it (and then you find out they're a random coverage move and your Darm-Z takes 65 from rend or whatever anyway) or you need to run two of them.

And to be honest, even that was manageable because Fur Coat is such a good ability that you could make it work, but imprisonform is just the actual worst, because now you need to play stupid guessing games. If you switch your FC Zamazenta in on Anchor from imprisonform, you die. If you switch your Giratina in on Glance from offensive, it basically dies too. You can run both in one but with how much sunsteel does FC Giratina is not the most reliable check either lol. And unless your scouting method is imposter, you can't even be sure until two moves are revealed because Imprisonform has a free moveslot to do whatever the fuck it wants. Knock off a shed shell? Be my guess. Glacial Lance that Giratina? By all means. And unlike most offensive wallbreakers and stallbreakers, you can't just keep it out with offensive pressure because it outspeeds and ohkoes most of them, so it gets tons of chances to come in and claim.

Now, that's not to say it doesn't have downsides. Imposter gets a +2 on it, so it's rather difficult to imposterproof, it's effectively itemless, and the meta is about as well adapted to it as can be expected. But what I think is pretty clear is that frankly, that's just not enough, and given how much time we've had and the effort spent already it seems it probably never will be.


*Yes there are technically stronger stuff like CB Adapt Groudon and faster stuff like Pheromosa but it's very close for the former and not relevant for much besides outspeeding Zacian-C for the latter.
 
If Zac-C is removed from the tier it would undoubtedly leave a noticeable hole in the meta, leading us to ask "what Pokemon could fill its role?" Obviously nothing replace such a meta centralizing fiend like Zacian-Crowned, but there are some Pokemon that would be left in positions to rise to power. The two pokemon that I believe would see a massive uptrend in viability would be Xerneas and Eternatus. Both of these pokemon would more than fill in the gap left behind by Zac-C in terms of offensive presence, preventing an uptrend of stall dominating the meta. Without the oppressive teambuilding constraints on balance prepping for Zac-C it opens up a world of possibilities for specific team compositions and certain sweepers.

Xerneas is already a menace but not too difficult to counter with ice scales, or more commonly pivoting to Zac-C and threatening to OHKO with a +1 Sunsteel. Yes this is able to be countered by spamming strength sap enough assuming you're at +1 Spe from rapid spin, but if you aren't at +1 when Zac-C comes in or if it gets a single critical hit it will instantly kill Xerneas no matter what set its running.
With the removal of Zac-C I feel like the usage of Xerneas would rise to an all-time new high, somewhat forcing players to use specific steel Pokemon or an ice scales mon but it's already a common threat and I don't think this would actually have a major effect compared to what it already is.

Much more so than Xerneas, Eternatus on the other hand has many things going for it with a removal of Zac-C in the meta and could drastically shift in how its used. After Zac-C is gone the matter of the next fastest Pokemon will fall directly onto the hero forms of the legendary dogs, with normal Zamazenta/Zacian likely taking up the torch for fast supports. However directly underneath them in terms of speed would be Eternatus, edging out Zama-C by a hair and possessing incredible bulk for its Speed and SpAtk which would likely make it the go to pokemon for speedy supports in general, with the hero forms existing primarily just to outspeed this menace.
The reason why Zac-C heavily blankets the usage of Eternatus is due to two main factors. 1. It is better as a fast support due to its immense speed and advantageous typing, along with isword being incredibly powerful for throwing on an offensive move without any investment. 2. It is completely immune to STAB from Eternatus, and can simply outspeed with GLance and murder an Eternatus lacking setup. Without these factors it's fair to say that Eternatus would be much less threatened and likely flourish in the new meta.

Here is a list I have compiled of some support/offensive Eternatus sets to showcase a few of the sets that it can run (even ignoring defensive ones like mbounce or fur/scales). Eternatus Sets

 

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